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Hello All,

I have been having a religious debate elsewhere about a certain point in the Bible that I cannot seem to reconcile with a fundamentalist "the Bible is inerrant" viewpoint. The debate dragged on, with very easily refutable apologetics concerning the meaning of the verses in question. Someone suggested posting the question on this board, as there are a good number of intelligent Christians who may be able to provide a solid explanation. While I am expecting a lively debate on the following issue, my goal is not to change anyones mind about what they belive, or to start a flame war. I really want a solid Christian perspective, that stands up to logical scrutiny.

My line of questioning follows from the common fundamentalist beliefs that:

A.) The bible is inerrant and literally true in all it's words.
B.) God is all loving, all good, and does no wrong.
C.) The God of the Bible, by necessity of A, reflects B in all his actions.

However, I find contradiction to these beliefs in the following verses, which clearly showcase immoral, evil, acts sanctioned by God. Now, it is commonly held that God is the measure of Morality (anything he does is inherently right and good), this argument is easily dealt with, and I will do so after presenting the verses in question.


The above verses reflect the immoral, evil, actions sanctioned by the Hebrew god in the old testament. These actions run the gamut of infantaside, slavery, rape (forced marriage), genocide, robbery (looting), and general murderous mayhem.

From these verses I can conclude that A is false in one of two ways:

1.) The bible is not inerrant, and the above verses reflect the ideology and moral values of a misogynistic patriarchal culture (not unlike many others found in the region at the time). A culture where women were property to be owned, killing "infedels" was a good and just act, and slavery and warfare were common practice.

2.) The bible is inerrant, and indeed God can shift and shape good and evil into anything that suits his means. His actions are out of love, and he gets to arbitrary define love, good, evil, etc. Whenever and however he feels like, despite the unwitting humans it affects.

Now if 1 is the case. My contention stops there, for this is my current belief on the subject. And what I see as the most obvious answer to the quandary. Following from this, we can say that if God exists, the above stories provide further proof as to how many have misused his name for personal gain throughout the ages.

However, If 2 is the case, we must then look deeper into the nature of morality and our ability to understand it.

Some would say, I (as a human) have no right to make these judgments in the face of an all powerfully god, as such a god himself sets the standard of morality. Thus, such a god can make rape (forced marriage), baby killing, murder, looting, a good thing. Right and wrong to this god is an arbitrary decision dependant on what his particular whim was at the time.

I would say that God is subject to the same concept of right and wrong that we (humans) are, and indeed is separate from this concept. We can make a good case for this by simply turning to Genesis.


Now, here we learn that because of the fruit mankind gained the ability to know good and evil as god and his fellow gods? know it. This not only states that we have the same ability as god in this faculty, but allows us to easily infer that good and evil are something outside of God, and not necessarily a part of him. God knows good and evil as we do, we both have the same faculty to understand what is right and wrong. Now, I think it is safe to say that most humans would agree that rape, slavery, and infantaside, is wrong and evil in any context. Since we have the same faculty as god to decern this right from wrong, god would have to agree. Thus, commanding what he did in the stories above was evil, by the very measure he himself is subject to as established in Genesis.

To put it in a simply, God cannot make rape, slavery, and infantaside, good. Can he?

So, my question to you is, with regard to my reasoning above, how does a fundamentalist biblical inerrantist reconcile these verses with an all-loving God?

Did God make killing babies, looting villages, and raping women a good thing in these bible stories?

Thank you for your time in reading my post, and I hope that I can gain some insight into christian reasoning on these matters.

Best Regards.

Oklahoma Howdy to Gumba,

I don't know where you are going with this or your purpose, especially considering this is your first post on a Christian family forum. I will simply tell you that you have been given some false information.

Almighty God is NOT an all-loving God. Almighty God is also a God of unimagined power in wrath and destruction of wickedness and evil. The Holy Bible is full of accounts where the wicked or evil were punished or destroyed. The great flood is but one example. There is prophecy throughout the Holy Bible that the future holds wrath and destruction like the world has never known before. The accounts in the Old Testament are mild in comparison to what the wicked will suffer in the future.

Almighty God created man with an ability to discern good and evil. Almighty God also sent his Son to die on the cross for the sins of man. Man can believe and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour and escape eternal wrath. Man can confess sins, repent, and try to obey God or go in the opposite direction for evil and wickedness. Those who refuse the GIFT of God and disobey HIM will suffer HIS wrath for eternity. Almighty God's wrath is righteous and just.

In Christ,
Tom

Hello gumba,  and welcome to the forum,


While God is NOT all loving, since he hates sin, and will by no means excuse it, he does love the sinner, and according as it has pleased Him,

He has of one blood made all nations of  of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; (Acts 17:26)

And, strives with sinners all the days of there lives to bring them to the knowledge of the truth, AND,

What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:.......... that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared unto glory,

It rains on the wicked as well as it rains on the just, and the just and the wicked both live and die, both going to their appointed places.

I have no idea where you are in as much as your relation to God the creator, but suffice to say, that He has left His word written in this book, where all men who desire may know Him, and understand that He is whom He is, and rveals Himself to them that seek Him with all their hearts,  there are those who hate Him, and according to His Word He;

Deut 7
10  .....will repay them that hate Him, to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

But His mercies are very great and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.

Consider them;

 Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
  Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;
  Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies;
  Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's.
  The LORD executeth righteousness and judgment for all that are oppressed.
  He made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel.
  The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.
  He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever.
 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.
  For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.
  As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
  Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him.
  For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.
  As for man, his days are as grass: as a flower of the field, so he flourisheth.
  For the wind passeth over it, and it is gone; and the place thereof shall know it no more.
  But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;
  To such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them.
  The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all.  (Psa 103: 2:19)

Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;



gumba,

Man cannot understand the things of God, except they consider and see thre things of God, from His perspective, He has made his will known to mankind from the begining,

He who created ALL things and knows the heart of men, is the only one that can execute justice according to His will, and He does not need to consult with anyone, He uses one nation to punish another, Isaiah says at;

Isa 40
13  Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counsellor hath taught him?
14  With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and showed to him the way of understanding?
15  Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.
16  And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn, nor the beasts thereof sufficient for a burnt offering.
17  All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
18  To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?
19  The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains.
20  He that is so impoverished that he hath no oblation chooseth a tree that will not rot; he seeketh unto him a cunning workman to prepare a graven image, that shall not be moved.
21  Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
22  It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
23  That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.
24  Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble.
25  To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.
26  Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.
27  Why sayest thou, O Jacob, and speakest, O Israel, My way is hid from the LORD, and my judgment is passed over from my God?
28  Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.
29  He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.
30  Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall:
31  But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

The answers to the questions you seek, we mere mortals can only speculate on, but what we can know is that His Word is A

A.) Is inerrant and literally true in all it's words.
B.) God is all loving, all good, and does no wrong.

And I would suggest to you, it is by necessity of B, reflects A in all his actions.

The Judge of all the earth will always do right....


Blessings,

Petro

I was simply trying to find a solid answer to my question and I was told these apologetic forums were good. As I said, I just wanted something that made sense, whenever I brought these issues up with other christians I allways got half-hearted answers.



So he is not all-loving. Well then, this is the end of it :) That answers my question. It really does, the christians I was arguing with told me he was. So naturaly it just didn't make sense to reconsile those verses above.

However, god can do evil to reach his means if it suits him. He after all is the boss of this place. I guess there is a distinction between richeousness and evil then?

Can god remain richeous doing bad things like above?

I guess a better question would be, what is richeousness?

Hello Gumba,

I've seen these questions before. They were worded a little bit differently, but I think they were on Internet Infidel. Christians would know the answers to these questions.

In answer to your last question: Almighty God is righteous, holy, pure, just, without sin, without evil, and perfect. The opposites describe mankind.

I think your last question is the one you need to address first and it is philosophical in nature.

The first point to keep in mind is that seldom if ever is an act on its own a sin.  It is the accompanying intention that is sinful.  In fact the intention alone can be a sin all by itself.  Such as anger violating the commandment against murder.

Now remember God is all knowing - so he knows the far reaching consequences of all actions, man's as well as his own.  So something can be a sin for man, because we don't know the far reaching consequences or don't care, and do the act purely for our own selfish desires.  But the same act done by God might would not be a sin as God knows the far reaching consequences and has only the best most perfect intentions at all times.

Think of it this way, you come up and plug in the toaster to make toast.  Not a sin for you because you do not know the long term consequences.  But I might know that someone is trying to repair the toaster and has their fingers on the heating elements, so if I were to plug it in with the intention of taking advantage of the situation to hurt that repair person I would be committing a sin.  Of course there are numerous and more convoluted ways of expressing this scenario but I hope you get the picture.

Relative to God we are merely lumps of clay in the makers hands and the clay has no right to ask the maker why He has made us such or done such with us.

The questions are my own. They are things I encountered as I read the bible and discussed it with a friend. I don't doubt that others have come across them, and indeed the verses I snagged from online sources. (i.e. the blue letter bible, and another one I can't remember).

The other forum I discused it on, with a christian, became a nowhere conversation as the individual was deadset on maintaining the idea that god was all loving. When clearly the verses show that he is not.

As far as righcheoussness being the heart of the matter, I am very interested in perseuing this idea further. Thank you very much for your feedback, and tolerance of my inquiry. As I said, I really just want to understand the belife system, I don't really want to judge it or anything, just want to understand the justifications involved in maintaining its ideals.

Which brings me to michael_legna's post:


So, an act is a sin by intention? If I intend good things by murder, and indeed achive those good things, was the murder a sin?

For example, much of this countries wealth was won from the persecution of the indians, and usage of slavery. Now, the intentions were not necissarly bad, they revolved around the idea of providing americans a better tomorow, and indeed those institutions succeded in doing so while causing great harm to others. Thus, can benifit come from sin? If so, was that sin really a sin?

This is a straight forward question. I really want to know the ideas behind this. As far as good coming from evil, and how that pertains to righchussness.


Well, I'm not so sure about this. Do you mean all possible actions or all actions? I mean he didn't seem to know man was going to eat the apple, and in the flood story, God does say he reagreted man, and intended to end evil on earth. Yet God failed at this as there is still evil. If he can regret, and be surprised, how can he be all knowing?

I think I know what you mean, but I would like to clarify all-knowing further so we both understand it.

 

But what if the intention isn't selfish? Stealing to feed your starving family perhapse, or even something as huge as shooting down a passanger plane due to terrorist threat. Are these acts sins?

I ask this as a matter of defining what is a sin. That is, if a human knows the consequences, has good intentions, yet does something horrible. Then that horrible thing is not a sin, right?


But the horrible acts listed above? How can we say god has good intentions thrugh murder, pillage, rape, and slavery? Is this based solely on faith at this point?

Isn't it more like my indian example above? Aren't we americans better off for persecuting them all, just as the isrealies were for pillaging cannan? Does that make either two things right?


I agree with you hear. I belive the above sittuations pose more of my predicament with this idea. If you could elaborate on those I would be much obliged.

gumba,


He a Holy Righteous God, hates sin, is that wrong in your opinion?


Did they say he loved sin?? or did they even address this at all??


Well noone can, unless one understands the spiritual truth of the matter.


Liberals today, think exactly the way you have expressed yourself herein, and I don't even know you, but it amazes me, when someone says god is evil when He excercises judgement, instead of being thankful He doesn't repay us according to our iniquities.

It is easy to make judgements on what God did four thousand years ago, not knowing the begining from the end of it all.  

But since He is who he is, we are confident He did what was right.
 
All good things will come to an end, od has made His will knowen to ALL mankind, he hates sin, and the day is coming when he will Judge the World in righteousness, you can call it evil, if you please, but nothing can be further than the truth.

He has been offering a pardon for nearly two thousand years now, those who reject the pardon, have nowhere else to  turn to for forgiveness of sin.

But this will not prevent nor delay it, one moment.

Are you ready that this day does not catch unawares??

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven ;b'against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;[/b]


Something to seriously consider................mmmhh.




Blessings,
Petro



Can god remain richeous doing bad things like above?

I guess a better question would be, what is richeousness?

Gumba:

These Scriptures do not reveal any unrighteousness with God, but rather reveal His righteousness EVEN WHILE HE MAKES CONCESSIONS TO THE SINFUL INCLINATIONS OF MANKIND. Let's look at each passage dispassionately:

Deuteronomy 21:10-14

10 When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives,
Is warfare intrinsically wrong? Not according to Scripture. Since all men are sinners, God allows warfare so that those who seek to oppress others [or are ungodly and idolatrous as were the nations surrounding Israel] may be "executed", just as the death penalty is "righteous" when administered to a murderer.  At that time in the history of Israel, God would use Israel to bring Divine judgment upon ungodly nations through warfare and the "penalty of execution". The Bible teaches clearly that the wages of sin is death, so execution is consistent with God's judgments against sin.

11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife.  
Notice that God gives express permission for a sacred marital relationship [wife] not an immoral "whorish" relationship.

[i]12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. [/i]  
This appears to be a ceremony of purification prior to marriage, nothing lewd or unholy here.

14 If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.  [/color]
Just as the Law of Moses allowed divorce because of "the hardness of men's hearts" God even allows this marriage to be anulled, while protecting the honour of the woman who was initially a captive of war but was given the status of a legal wife.  Now who in all fairness would say that anything in this passage is immoral?
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Judges 21:10-24

So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.
This passage upholds the teaching that young women should remain virgins before marriage.  Who can object to that except those who themselves are immoral?

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives.
Again, these virgins were to be honoured with the status of legal wedded wives.  Is this unholy or ungodly?

But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."
To honour a solemn oath is an honourable thing.  Can anyone object to that?

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife!
There is not a shred of evidence that this suggests or implies rape.  What it does state that they were to be (1) taken home to be "wives" [an honourable thing] and (2) only one was allowed to each man [also an honourable thing].

And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnaped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.
The above translation uses the word" kidnapped" in verse 23.  However, the KJV uses the word "caught", and we should not immediately "rush to judgment" and say this is the same as being "kidnapped".  This was certainly not brutality, kidnapping or rape, but an unusual, and in our Western culture, unimaginable way of acquiring a wife. So to then infer from this passage that God is unrighteous is not only foolish, but unfair and blasphemous.
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Deuteronomy 20:10-14

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
Again, this is divine execution of the ungodly, and God the righteous and true judge, has every right to not only render a just verdict, but also have it carried out.  You would not blame a human judge today if he order the execution of a serial killer, a child molester, or a serial rapist. How then can sinful man stand in judgment over a holy God and say "God is unrighteous because He righteously executes the ungodly"?
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Numbers 31:17

Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.  
This is the same situation and the same response is adequate.

The above verses reflect the immoral, evil, actions sanctioned by the Hebrew god in the old testament. These actions run the gamut of infantaside, slavery, rape (forced marriage), genocide, robbery (looting), and general murderous mayhem.
From this statement, you are telling us that you, who are a mere mortal, and at best a sinner who is not a murderer, a slaver, a rapist, or a thief, are more righteous than God, who is infinitely and absolutely perfect (BTW you don't have to commit any crimes to be a sinner -- all you have to do is be born of human parents).  

The fact that you refer to the one true and living God -- the LORD God Almighty -- as "the Hebrew god of the Old Testament" -- reveals that you prefer to believe the lies of theological liberals over the truth of God's Word. However, this same "Hebrew god" calls Himself "I AM" and the Lord Jesus Christ also calls Himself "I AM".  "I AM" is the Name of the One who never changes because He is perfect, the One who is the same yesterday and today and for ever because He is perfect, the One who put the very concept of "morality" into His creature man, and who puts "conscience" into every person born on the face of this earth because He Himself is holy, righteous and pure beyond human imagining.

This "Hebrew god" is  not only the eternal Creator but the sole Redeemer of mankind. The reason Christ came to this earth was to pay the penalty for your sins and mine, so how could He do so if there was one iota of sin or immorality in Him? Even plain human logic tells us that only One who Himself was blameless could become a Substitute for every sinner ever born on earth.

I'm not arguing right or wrong here. But I would agree that he hates sin, and by consequence the sinner. Right? I mean he hates those who sin, so he feels free to punish them grusomely, if not in this world, then in the next.


Well the idea was that he loves the sinner and not the sin, by consequence that he was all loving OF PEOPLE in general. I argued along the lines that some mothers never stop loving their kids no matter how bad they are. etc.

What it seems here, in this discusion, is that indeed God is not necisseraly all loving of all people. Those who sin, are not loved in his book. Hence the need for christ/salvation etc. This is what I am understanding so far.


This I don't understand. What is the spiritual truth of it? I am unclear.


I don't know what this has to do with politics. With all due respect, lets keep this discusion on a purely thological/philosophical basis.

When I said evil in this quote, I was unclear, I mean evil in our eyes. Meaning, the chapters I quoted above etc. Were evil things in human eyes. Baby killing etc. Look pretty bad from down here.


See, this is my sticking point though. Slavery, rape, pillage, murder etc. Were his devices of choice those 4000 years ago. Even if the ends justifyed the means, isn't that a rather cold, dictatorial, take on a God who loves us?

Perhapse I am not one to question. But when considering this God I cannot help it. What did killing all those people, enslaving them, pillaging them, gain in the long run? How could it compensate? Is there any result of it today to indicate it's ultimate merit?


This is another discusion all together. It would be an interesting one, and indeed I am curious as to the nature and mechanisim of salvation. But right now I am exploring the nature of the christian God. I want to know what he is about.

Thank you very much, for your response, and your patience.

While I will agree that it seems to be makeing an attempt at evenhandedness, I would argue that this passage still bears the mark of an ancient culture who viewd women as propertie. What's worse is the idea that you could indeed try and make someone whome you have thuroughly humiliated to become your wife. (You did just kill all her friends and family after all). When taken into context with the other passages I quoted, it is not unresonable to assume this passage is speaking of forced marrige. This idea being wholy abbominable in my mind.


Ummm... they were kidnaped, their village ransaked, and they were MADE into wives. It wasn't like Seven Wives and Seven Brothers over there. They didn't all go over with rings and propose after a nice date over some wine and dinner.

Sorry, but I don't understand your resoning here.


An oath is one thing, but to resort to kidnaping to preserve it is another. Surely they could have found another way.


They were KIDNAPED. And maybe not raped, just forced to marry the men who KIDNAPED them. Considering that the whole point of this story was preserving isreals bloodline, I think the intent of sireing offspring is implied. This would indeed imply intercourse somwhere down the line. These women are not given a say in the matter in the whole story. That is not right now is it?


The first part of the story has men destroying a village and kidnapping 400 women to force them into marrige. The last part has them kidnapping a bunch more women in a dance.

Perhapse as you say it's a cultural thing. Yet let us not be so hasty and asume it was a good thing either. We know the ancient Hebrews did not in any way view women as having equal status as men. They are viewd as propertie.

This is echoed in other cultures in that region and by countless other bible stories. This story is just one of the bunch, and as the others do, God says nothing against these rather barbaric and humiliating ideas, and in some as in the Numbers story seems to order it explicitly.



So why are the women godly, and are to be enjoyed with the rest of the plunder? Not only that, what about the explicit endorsement of forced labor in the first part? Is this righcheous?

Numbers 31:17


So why are the baby boys evil and ungodly, but not the young virgins? Why do they keep the virgins?


I call him that, because he is that. I am not a liberal, just doing some research into christian thology. I mean no disrespect, I am seeking only understanding. I do apreciate your response, but I must say that this goes along the lines of my previous discusion. Instead of getting hung up on these details, perhapse we can discuss what the nature of richeousness and sin are?

I think this will lead to some enlightenment on this issue.

Again, thank you very much. I am really enjoying this discussion, and it is turning out more fruitfull than I expected.

Gumba:

Your questions about the execution of sinners in the OT are directly related to the nature of God and the nature of sin.

IF GOD WERE NOT ABSOLUTE HOLINESS

1. HE WOULD NOT DEMAND PERFECTION OF MEN
The Bible teaches from cover to cover that (1) the one true and living God is holy, righteous and just. This is revealed to be ABSOLUTE, i.e. without an iota of imperfection.  Therefore God's standard for mankind is also absolute righteousness: "BE YE THEREFORE PERFECT, EVEN AS YOUR FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN IS PERFECT" (Matthew 5:48).

Reading this Scripture and the staggering demand that it places upon each one of us, the natural response will be despair of ever being as perfect as God. Why? Because we are all sinners, and therefore minimize the heinousness of sin in the eyes of God.

2. SIN WOULD NOT BE UTTERLY HEINOUS AND TOTALLY ABHORRENT TO GOD[/b
When you and I hear about a pedophile who not only rapes a little girl of 8 or 9 but then murders her, it makes our blood boil, and the automatic response to such a heinous act is to desire the immediate execution of this monster. Such an act of a sick, crazed mind is utterly abhorrent to most of us.

When God sees a sin ["all unrighteousness is sin" -- 1 John 5:17) His reaction to it is exactly the same as our reaction to heinous crimes.  In God's eyes every sin is a heinous crime, because it violates His holiness and pollutes the universe.
That is why, when God placed Adam in the garden of Eden, He gave him freedom to freely partake of all the fruits in that garden, but also forbad the fruit of one tree -- the tree of ]the knowledge of good and evil -- and warned him: "FOR IN THE DAY THAT THOU EATEST THEREOF THOU SHALT SURELY DIE" (Genesis 2:17).

3. DEATH WOULD NOT BE THE PENALTY FOR SIN
Because we as mortals are so used to the idea and reality of death, we hardly stop to think what this universe would have been like without death, decay, decomposition, and destruction.  But that is how it was intended to be by God.
Adam was given clear and fair warning:  "The day you trangress my commandment, you will be separated from me in spiritual death and your body will be separated from your soul and spirit in physical death" (because death is in essence spearation).  None of us can possibly understand what it will be like to be separated from God eternally, yet that will be the fate of the majority of the human race, not because God wills it, but because man chooses to ignore, despise and reject the offer of eternal life in Christ Jesus. Eternal hell is eternal separation from God in a fiery place of torment, which was actually created for the devil and his angels. Because sin is such a serious matter, hell also becomes a very serious matter.

4. CHRIST WOULD NOT BE THE LAMB OF GOD THAT "TAKETH AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD"
This is where God's infinite grace, infinite mercy, and infinite love come into play, but not at the expense of His infinite holiness, righteouness, and justness. God is not only a holy God, but He is also a just God, and a merciful and gracious God. So He devises a "plan of salvation" with the full cooperation of His Son and the Holy Spirit, even before Adam is created -- "BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD" -- by making Jesus Christ "the Lamb of God".  Because Jesus of Nazareth Himself is God the Son, He too is absolute holiness and sinless perfection.  He was always and will always be the eternal Son of God -- THE WORD.  But in order to become "the Lamb of God" [ the sinless Substitute who would offer Himself as a sacrifice for the human race] He must take human form.  Thus Christ became Jesus of Nazareth, lived a sinless life, died the death for every sinner who has ever lived or will live, rose again triumphant over sin, death, hell and Satan, and now freely offers the gift of HIS OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS to each and every one who believes in Him.
Thus all men can become as perfect as God [imputed righteousness] and also have eternal life, instead of going to an eternal hell.

There are several ways sin is dependent on intention.  The first is if you do something (like run someone of your car and kill them) if you did it by accident while taking all due care (like you weren’t drunk) then it is without intention and therefore no sin.  If you meant to run them over to hurt them there is intention and therefore sin because of direct intent.  If you drank at a party not caring what effect it might have on others in the future then there is sin because of inconsideration.  If you ran over them because you refused to let them sleep in your barn when they needed shelter and so they decided to sleep in your driveway there is sin from failing to do what was right.

Your example of what man did to native peoples is more involved but I feel the principals are the same.  I believe that one must be very careful in pursuing wealth or comfort in life.  If there is any chance your gain means someone else’s loss then you risk sin if you are or could be at all aware of it and most educated people fit that description.  What we did building this country certainly involved sins on the part of those “colonizing” the land.  I work in a business based around the market economy and face these issues daily.  Many of my compatriots justify dealings with the adage that the deal is a win-win, meaning both sides come out ahead.  But I know that is never the case – one side always benefits more than the other.  For me taking advantage of the situation without the other side of the negotiation understanding that is a sin.  The point is the end NEVER justifies the means.  

I was once involved in a debate in Philosophy class about moral, immoral and amoral acts.  I contended that there were no strictly amoral acts.  So we discussed the idea of erasing a black board.  If you are right handed and so erase with the right hand is that moral – or if you purposely use your left is that immoral.  Most of the class claimed this in all instances was an amoral act.    My contention was that God knows which is the best way for each of us to erase a blackboard. Maybe in my case it would be that due to efficiency, time savings and the chance to move on to other things to serve your fellow human, or for some other reason, it is best to switch back and forth between hands.  There is no way we can know these types of details for sure, so we can go through life committing immoral acts all the time.  But an immoral act is not a sin and God won’t judge me on it if I did not know it was immoral.  If I knew it was best to switch back and forth and decided not to just to milk it and take my time to spite everyone, then I would sin.


I am not sure I can help you here, as the idea of an all knowing God and in fact the idea of God’s existence is a matter of faith.  I can tell you what I believe but I can not tell you why I believe in any convincing manner.

But there are a few points we can address here that might help.  I do believe that God knew man was going to fall from grace.  Because God gave us freewill He can regret man’s actions, much as a parent regrets the behavior of a child when they are given freedom to choose and fail to select properly.  As far as regretting creating man or intending to end evil on earth once and for all I would have to see the verses you are getting that from to see if maybe you are misinterpreting the scripture.  The deeper philosophical issue of whether man can have free will and God still know everything that is going to happen exactly as it is going to happen has plagued man’s limited logic for centuries and I doubt you and I will solve it here.  I have a bizarre little theory on this but will not go into it unless you really want to hear it as I know it is flawed in the sense that it is not completely formed.


Selfishness is not limited to one’s self.  As we are all parts of larger social units such as family, community, state, country, etc. we can exhibit selfishness if our desires/emotions are aimed at improving our lot in life at the expense of others.  Stealing to feed one’s family is a hard choice because of the emotions it evokes, but it is not a difficult philosophical problem.  I would never do it, at least I hope I never would.  I will never know until I am faced with the actual situation.  I just know that I will feel at that time that I have failed to live up to proper standards of behavior regarding right or wrong.  Still this is just for me and my understanding I would never judge another human’s behavior in terms of sin.  I would never kill even to defend myself or my family because to do so takes away that person’s last chance to accept Christ.

The issue of shooting down an airliner to prevent a terrorist attack is another tough one because to do so is to claim to understand the far reaching consequences of the act.  Perhaps the immediate consequence of preventing the plane from being rammed into a building, thus sparing thousands of lives is clear.  But maybe there is one person on the plane who would survive the crash if not shot down and that person would save millions with a new drug.  But then maybe that person is in the building and will only survive if the plane is shot down.  It is all very complicated and man can never know the true best solution to any given situation.  We must only do what we think is best in each case.  That is why I will never judge another for their actions, that is for God to do.  I simply try to treat others as I would have them treat me.

I had to split my reply becasue it got so long - so look for another to follow

Yes I think it is based solely on faith, faith that God knows more than we do.  The difference between the Israelites warring with other nations and the early settlers warring with the native Americans is that God knew the long term consequences and the white man did not.  Man cannot judge the creator by his standards, at least not until we can answer the question - Can God create a rock so large He Himself cannot lift it?  You see our puny logic is just not equipped to deal with these issues.


One of the more convoluted scenarios I would suggest you consider, that maybe more closely fits your issues with God is the following:

I decide to plug in the toaster to get my toast because I want it now and I don’t care who it hurts and therefore I sin.  God has me plug in the toaster even though He and I both know or suspect it will kill the repairman.  But He has me do it because it keeps that repairman from causing the death of millions and God sees that as in this case being the better result.  In that case I do not sin as I have turned my will over to God even though I do not see the long term consequences myself.  God even used the enemies of the Israelites to their advantage by allowing them to conquer the Israelites.  In fact we gentiles, are being used to their advantage (and ours) by the formation of the Church to lead the Israelites into jealousy, which is intended to bring them to recognizing the Messiah.  God’s plan is more complex than we can possibly imagine, probably due (IMHO) to the gift of freewill which really mucks things up.  But if you have faith and believe that God is all knowing then it all makes sense, or at least enough sense.

Well gumba, you asked didn't you, here is another long one, but please do not feel that you have to answer mine, since you are getting smothered by responses.



Well it is evident you understand the concept.

Those who are his children (born of the spirit of God, by the will of God Jhn 1: 12-13)  he will not disown, even when they sin willingly against Him.

While those who are not his children belong to the prince of the the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:and are by nature the children of wrath. (Eph 2:2-3)

And these, the Spirit of  God deals with patiently, but there are some who heap sin upon sin, and as they hear of the mercies and grace of God commanding all to repentance (because He has appointed a day when He will judge All, byt the man whom He has raised from the dead)  they continue resisiting, until the day comes when their heart has become so hard that they actually confess with their own lips, what they belive in their heart, by (actually speaking it)blaspheming the Spirit of Grace, and by doing so seal there own fate.

God never created any man to perish in eternal fire the fact is eternal fire was prepared for the Devil and His angels (Mat 25:41), but men who resisit the Grace of God, can only do it for a season, sometimes that season is a lifetime, God withholds judgment, but in the end Justice must be served.

It is God who gives life and takes it.

By virtue of His power, majesty and glory, the Creator doesn't need to answer to anyone.

He has made His will known unto all of mankind.

Because He seeks to fellowship, with His creation, He will show mercy and grace by saving out of all who peish, a people for himself.

Here are those verses again;

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:21-23

This is why He calls ALL to repent, and those who hear and believe His Word obey (not that anybody can repent unless it is given to them by God Himself), since He gives everyone All they need to come to Him, by Faith, including theat Saving Faith.

Oh yes, man can believe, but He can't bvelieve to the saving of his, soul unless God gives the Faith that saves, and it is all done by His grace and mercy, which he displays by commanding All to repent from theis sin, of unbelief.




This I don't understand. What is the spiritual truth of it? I am unclear.
The truth of the matter is that God does what He wants, you wouldn't have asked this question if you would have read the verses I gave you. He answers to no one, He knows the end from the begining.  Job said;

"Behold, he taketh away, who can hinder him? who will say unto him, What doest thou?" Job 12:9


I don't know what this has to do with politics. With all due respect, lets keep this discusion on a purely thological/philosophical basis.
There are liberal theologians even aethists, that try to rationalize the character of God, as though they can come up with a  profile of Him.  Thereby painting Him into their little box.

Yet Solomon, the wisest man who walked the earth, says of Him;

"27  But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?"  (1 Kings 8:27)

 Cont'd.....................

Cont'd...... for gumba.....


From mans perspective it is. But then again, man,  Gods creation is flawed because of sin, and can it be said, mans perspective is NOT the truth that ends the discussion.

God says, man has sinned against Him, and HE will judge everyman according to his deeds.

The natural man rejects this idea, and thren compares himself to others, and declares I am not as bad as that guy over their, look at what he has done? Therefore I not mdeserving of death.


Unfortunately, for man, Gods standard is perfect obedience to His law,  God doesn't use other men to measured them up to, He uses His onl;y begotten Son, so if you have such thoughts consider Jesus, who lived a sinless life, and then answer the question for yourself;  Have you sinned against God?  Are you deserving of His righteous judgement?  What do all these other things have to do with this..??  

By Faith in Jesus the only begotten Son of God, who shed His blood for the sins of His peolple, men can have all their sins forgiven, but one must acknowlege and repent.

The fact is that unless one repents, he will die the eternal death...all this according to Gods Known Will, provided in His Word.


What else is could be more imnportant than this??

One can spend his whole life searching out answers to questions which lead now where, ignoring the matter will not resolve it, the answers are found in His Written Word.

You wnat to know these things, get right with Him, and then ask Him, He will answer, all your questions.

In the meantime all you can do is ask for other peoples opinions, and we all have one, but of what value are they if they are mere speculation based on the wisdom of this world.  

The Apostle Paul, says;



 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. (1 Cor 1:17-25)

and again;

For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. (1 Cor 3:19-20)

So who are you going to believe??


Blessings,

Petro

Sorry I was silent today. I'll likely post something tomorow. Not that anyone is holding thier breath or anything :D

Just letting you know Im around.

If I may be so bold to state in answer to your questions about God's nature, the following:-

First and foremost God is Love and God is Merciful not willing for any of us to perish ie the second death.  God is not wrath nor wrathful.  He only becomes wrathful at the last resort just as any good parent would.

Second, there are no contradictions in God's Word.  If you think you have discovered one then you have to go away and rethink the whole thing - hopefully through God's eyes ie our ways are not His ways.  Our thinking is not His thinking.

Thirdly, in order to understand God's wrath you have to understand His act of love through that act of wrath.  

Fourthly, you have to understand that with evil there is a point of no return ie the devil and his demons.  Man also can reach this stage and would if it were not for God's acts of wrath - His love in destroying people before it is too late for them.  The loss of this physical life is not important when compared to the loss of the spiritual life - the second death.

I hope this helps.

 

What ever GOD does is Godly. Man may not understand or aprove. God can not be  ungodly. For God so loved the world He sent the flood.

charlie,

Welcome to this forum.

You made an excellent point, which needs to looked at closely.

Gods wrath, never is never the result of an uncontrolable rage, as men manifest their wrath, when driven to murder.

It literraly a is a controlled execution of just judgement, done in full cognizance of what is being handed out to those worthy of death.  

Such will be the great day of judgement which comes upon this earth and its inhabitants.

Men must not kid themselves into believing there is no God who will bring all that the holy prophets have testified to, such it was in the days of Noah, when he preached the coming of judgement on the earth by water in his days which he spent building an arch, unduring the mocking of those who witnessed it being built, yet we know that fay came,destroying all except eight souls. (1 Pet 3:20)

There is a coming judgement upon this earth, when Jesus the only begotten Son of God,  will execute justice and judgement during His reign upon the earth on the ungodly, and yet even during this time it will be a period when men can still repent and be saved, then the end will come.

So we can see clearly, that God is a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest Him of the evil which befalls men.

But like all good things, they must come to an end, those who enjoy the mercy and grace of God, remaining in the sin of unbelief, while Gods sheds this mercy on them, will in the end one day, come to the eternal judgement, what excuse will they plead before Him, to excuse them of their refusal to acknowledge Him as God the Creator.


Coemthing to think about..

Thanks for your comments.

Blessings,

Petro

Thank you for your welcome, Petro.

I am going to be somewhat controversial now, when I make this statement:-  

The judgement, so called, does not not take place at the end of this physical life, but rather at the end of a second physical life.  Which for those who 'rejected Christ' in this life will have their first opportunity to respond to God's calling.  The white throne judgement of Revelation.

Romans 11:26 states ALL ISRAEL shall be saved.  This scripture needs explanation, remember there are no contradictions in God's word.   This scripture means exactly what it says - all the Israelites of OT times as well as modern  Israelites will be saved.  If we follow the teaching that everyone who is not Christ's, (this must include all those who were born before Christ) in this life are doomed for the lake of fire, then this flies in the face of this prophecy.

You will notice that I put ' ' around the term rejecting Christ.
What does that term REALLY mean.  What are the grounds that constitute TRUE rejection.   I always use the analogy of little Johnny who when faced with a new dish from mum says ugh I don't like it and I don't want it.  Mum says but you haven't tried it how can you say you don't like it!?  Don't care says little Johnny I don't want it, it's yuk!  Now this typifies the usual non-believer's attitude to Jesus Christ and the gift of Grace.   This though is not, I repeat not rejection in the true sense

True rejection of Jesus Christ can only come from those who come to KNOW HIM.  That is true rejection.  Even then though all is not lost, as The Parable of the Prodigal Son proves.  Have you ever noticed that he receives his inheritance ie he has received Christ - answered God's calling and then turns away,  God is always merciful and always receives us back if we admit our faults to Him.

charlei,

Now, these are the kinds of comments that really get people to think...and thinking critically is what is needed to discern what is true from that which is not true..especially when considering God's word.

The great white throne judgement of Revelation which precedes eternity, will be attended by the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books will be opened: the dead will be judged out of those things which were written in those books, according to their works(Rev 20:12). And another book will be opened, which is the book of life: and the living in Christ who were asleep shall be also be judged according to their works, before the Judgement seat of Christ. (Rom14:10);

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.  (2 Cor 5:20)

Yes, I agree, the judgement appears to be after the resurrection of both small and great, that everyone might receive in his own body according as he has done.

.....it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Heb 9:27)

There is no literal second death after the judgement, in fact the second judgement for those that stand at the white throne judgement is considered the second death(Rev 20:13-15), but for those in Christ it is referred to as Eternal Lifeon which the second death has no power.(Rev 20:6)


Now charlie, this is where you've got to slow down and explain one point at a time....

Lets take your first statement which doesn't sound biblical and see if we can untangle it.  

You said;


You need to define "all", as you understand the meaning of this word.  Then reconcile your understanding to that of scripture.

If you can explain this, we will talk further..

Now in order to understand this scripture passage you have quoted we must read it in the lite of:

Rom 1:36, Heb 3, 4,


Blessings,

Petro


You will notice that I put ' ' around the term rejecting Christ.
What does that term REALLY mean.  What are the grounds that constitute TRUE rejection.   I always use the analogy of little Johnny who when faced with a new dish from mum says ugh I don't like it and I don't want it.  Mum says but you haven't tried it how can you say you don't like it!?  Don't care says little Johnny I don't want it, it's yuk!  Now this typifies the usual non-believer's attitude to Jesus Christ and the gift of Grace.   This though is not, I repeat not rejection in the true sense

True rejection of Jesus Christ can only come from those who come to KNOW HIM.  That is true rejection.  Even then though all is not lost, as The Parable of the Prodigal Son proves.  Have you ever noticed that he receives his inheritance ie he has received Christ - answered God's calling and then turns away,  God is always merciful and always receives us back if we admit our faults to Him.

Hello Petro,

All means all, this is what the valley of bones in Ezekiel is all about.   The Father will put ALL things under Our Lord's feet.  All means all.

In Hebrews 3 & 4 the writer is using the example of the rebelliousness of SOME of the Israelites in the wilderness who then never saw the Promised Land.  They were punished for that rebellion then and there.  They will be resurrected.  The Lord through the writer is just using this story as an example to warn those who are called, about the danger of unbelief.   The danger for us being the second death not just a physical death.

Don't forget these wilderness Israelites were not born again, even though they had God in their midst,  they were still under the Law, carnal, sold unto sin.  Our merciful God knew this.  Also if we are saying there is no hope for these people then there is also no hope for Moses for he did not enter the Promised Land either.  Is there no hope for Moses?  God forbid.

Verses that in some variation suggest that God creates or originates evil:

Is 45:7:

Lam 3:38
II Chron. 18:22
Ex 32:14
II Cor. 5:10
Amos 3:6
Ezek. 20:26
Mic 1:12
Prov. 16:4
Jer. 11:17
     18:11(?)
Zc 8:14
Lev. 14:34
Zc 8:10b
Job 12:16(?)
    42:11
Jer 21:10
Is  13:9
Dty 32:39
Is  54:16b
I Sam. 2:6
Jer 26:3
Jsh 11:20
Ps  105:25
I Sam. 2:25

"Verses that in some variation suggest that God creates or originates evil:"


Would you please define what you mean by evil in this statement?

charlie,

I don't why, but may I ask you a question?

You wouldn't be the old "hitch", that use to post here on this site, would you??

Petro

Petro,

Absolutely not.

Regards

Charlie

Are you saying that God will resurrect those who died in unbelief at Heb 3, 4, and will save them??


If you are, and it appears you are.  How do you reconcile this scripture to your idea, that Esekiel 37, teaches this;

.......it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:Heb 9:27

The resurrection of the dead will be for the express purpose of standing before the Great White Throne Judgment for those whose names are NOT found written in the Book of Life or the Judgment Seat of Christ for those whose names ARE found written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
 
I gave you all the verses which cover this very matter in my previous post..

Blessings,

Petro

Petro,

Correct there is a Judgement and I will get into that in a minute.  

Let's look first at Jesus' sacrifice.  He died and took ALL of mankind's sin, PAST, present and future.  All people before Christ with the exception of Moses, King David and the Prophets, died in their sins, ALL of them.  All the Israelites in the wilderness and even those who entered the promised land died in their sins.   Those who died prematurely in the wilderness died because of their rebelliousness and that was their punishment.

Now, let's look at the Judgement.  All these people are standing before the Throne of God.  They have been resurrected in order to do this.   They are then judged according to their works.  What kind of works, and if 'good' works are they then saved?  If you are saying yes to this then you saying they will have EARNT their salvation.  A salvation through works.  God forbid, salvation is through Christ and Christ alone.

Those whose names are in the Book of Life are those who are born again.  Those who stayed the course in this life, there is also a judgement for us but that is to give out the different rewards.   Some will be given one city others five cities and so on.

Apologies

I forgot Enoch, Noah, Abraham and his immediate descendants, who should also be included with Moses and co.

What do you mean "Those who died prematurely in the wilderness died because of their rebelliousness and that was their punishment."??

These that died in the wilderness, died in unbelief, their reward was death, they presently are in their garves awaiting the resurrection to stand at The Great White Throne Judgement, ther is no work which will save them; in clearer terms, they are as good as judged to the ertenal fires, beacuse they died in unbelief, if there are any who camje to the same faith as Abraham, they presently live with Abraham, since ;

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living..olor] Mk 12:27


There is only one kind of work that saves, and Jesus spoke of it;

This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Jhn6:29

The Holy Spirit has always done the work of God in individuals even in the OT the Holy Spirit revealed Jesus.

Jesus spoke concerning Abraham when He said;

   If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
  Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
  Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.  Jhn 8:54-56

Consider Simeon a just and devout man who was taught of the Spirit of God, notice what he said concernng Jesus;

  And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
  And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
  Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
  Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
  For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
  Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
  A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. Lk 2:26-32  

How else could Simeon have known this concerning Jesus??

He believed in Jesus.

Proof that he had done the work of God.

And just like all believers, he did this work, because God had equipped him totally for it, God gave him Faith to believe in Jesus, (Phil 1:29)


Yes, I fully expect that Abraham and Simeonj are born again, in the presence of God today.


Please quote the verse you relie on, it would be good to look at it in its context.

Blessings,

Petro

Petro,

With respect you have ignored my first statement ie. that Jesus died for all sins PAST[/b present and future.  The unbelief of the Israelites was not the same unbelief as our unbelief would be.  THEY WERE NOT BORN AGAIN - THEY DID NOT HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT RESIDING WITHIN THEM.  Their punishment LIKE MOSES' was not entering the Promised Land.

IF YOU condemn these Israelites then the same condemnation hangs over Moses.   Are YOU prepared to condemn Moses?

Jesus died for the sins of His people, not all the people.

Note;

Mat 1
18  Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
19  Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.
20  But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21  And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.  For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.[/b]  Jhn 6:37-40

Only those whom are given to Jesus b y the Father are His people.

Please tell me where you get the idea that those who are spoken of in Heb 3,4 will be saved.

You need to read these two chapters again, those that died in the desert did not believe God, Moses did believe God, in fact you would be hard pressed to prove he was  not saved,

Hebrews 11:23-29, lists Him as one of the great men of faith, notice especially verse 26-28;

Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompense of the reward.
27  By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
28  Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

You need to study these verse in depth.  Your getting off the mark of this one..with where you appear to be going with this idea.


Who says??  Rom 11:20-36, clearly tells us, they were broken off because of unbelief (Vs 20)



No one in the OT, received the Holy Spirit, and neither did any in the NT because He was not given until after Jesus returned to heaven.


No, Moses came to faith in Christ, evidence by the scripture at Heb 11:24-29.

Blessings

Petro

Petro

The Israelites were and are His people.  He Himself was a Jew, an Israelite.  JESUS DIED FOR THE SINS OF ALL MANKIND PETRO.  Adam and Eve - Cain and Abel you name 'em Jesus will resurrect 'em and give them a chance.  What about all the babies and young children that died in those times.  Those children who were sacrifices to Molech - where do you differenciate Petro - how old do you have to be to receive mercy or have it denied, or judged by this tyrannical god of yours.    

What of the Israelites that didn't rebel they still died in their sins are they condemned too, Petro?

If we go by the yardstick used on this forum Jesus' failure rate would be a disgrace.

charlie,

I forget where I answered another thread on the" Which race is gods people."  You need to familiarize yourself with Rom 2:28-29.  Gods chosen nation may be Israel, but His people are spiritual Jews, from every kindred, tongue, people and nation, not of the physical seed, but spiritual, incorruptible, and born of the will of God (Jhn 1:12-13)
 


This sounds like universalISM to me, charlie..this is simply not scriptural.

Did I hear you correctly, claiming you and your wife have a two person church??  


If they died in unbelief, they are..


Well, that should not surprise anyone who claims Christ, and knows His Word.

However, your understsanding of who fails what is, also not scriptural, only those who believe Him, will be saved, this is not failure that can be attributed to Him, I fail to see, your logic. (Mat 7:21-23)

It is clear from Mat 1:21; He will save His people from their sins, His people are all those whom God gives Him, and according to Jesus, this is the will of His Father;

Jhn6
...........them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
  But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
  For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
  And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.   Jhn 6:35-40


Many are called few chosen.  Deception is such that those decieved do not even know they are..

And just because someone knows a scripture or two, doesn't mean they are known by Jesus.

And this is the greatest deception..one may know something about Jesus, but this in itself doesn't prove that Jesus knows them.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.  Mat 7:21-23

What scriptures do you rely on to teach what you have presented herein..??


Blessings,
Petro

Petro,

Your stand point in this discussion is becoming like shifting sands.

Jesus' physical people are Israelites, His spritual people are from all races.  Jesus instructed his disciples to take the message to the lost tribes of Israel FIRST.  If Israel is not important then why do they get mentioned in Revelation in such a SPECIAL way.  

We were discussing physical Israelites of the OT.  Not spiritual Israelites.

Universalism - what is that?

Many are called, few are chosen. True, but for what and for when.  Do you know Petro?  I suppose you also consider those who are not chosen are immediately damned.

Have I begun to get personal and accusatory with you Petro? My spiritual situation with my wife is perfect in God's sight, for where two or more are gathered in My name.....

MANY - this is the crucial word Petro.  Where do you find many who claim to be Christian, why in mainstream churches of course where else will you find them.  How many non-believers do know that can stand before God and say those things.  I am part of a minority, and I know others who have done the same.

Most mainstream churches are tainted with ROME as most are just schisms of Rome.  There is now at this moment in time a clamouring for unity with Rome by MANY denominations (demonic divisions) and if I am correct this even includes your Southern Baptist churches.  Our Anglican church certainly wants it.

Petro I am going to challenge you to purge Rome from your belief system.  This means to question who taught you what you know.  What authority taught you and what were their origins.  For I tell you the truth Augustine was a counterfeiter
just another servant of Rome.  Protestantism only protested it did not break away completely.  Sunday is not the Lord's day for example. I will leave it here for now.

charlie,

Jesus' physical people (as you put it) that rejected HIM, died in unbelief, and as Caiaphas the high priest, put it;

Jhn 11
49  And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50  Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51  And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52  And  not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Though He did die for the world, in the end, only those who placed there faith in Gods promises concerning Jesus, are those who receive the promise,  this is one reason why they are referred to as the "children of the promise."

This is perfect example of what I have been pointed out to you.

The idea that men who died in unbelief and had rejected the promises of God in Christ once already,  will be resurrected to be saved by Him, is not at all taught in the scriptures.


The nation will be saved represented in a remnant, in the end times, these are they whom Jesus died for.


It is the teaching some like the Jehovash Witness's teach, where everyone will un litmately be saved, when they get it right.....the teaching comes in different forms but has the same ingredients.


Yes, chosen to be heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. (Rom 8:17)  Heirs of Salvation. (Heb 1:14)  Heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?(James 2:5)  Being Justified by Grace made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:7)

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.  (Gal 3:29)

What are you thinking??


Well, lets put it this way; Those who are not chosen are rejected and do not become children of ther promise, they cast into outer darkness, because they have refused the command to obey the command to repent and thereby rejected Gods offer of His mercy towards all who sin against Him.


My next question was, is this a church you are strating with your wife??


Well I am not doubting this if you belogn to Christ, you have asked me, certain questions which I have answered, stating I ignored some, when I haven't, however you haven't reconciled the ideas you have posted, with the scriptures I have given you.

How is it, you say, those who have died in unbelief, will be resurrected to be saved, when they have already rejkected God and the promise? Especially when the following verse states;

[b ]And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:[/b]  Heb 9:27

Square this up, can you, with your idea which contradicts the verses, shared with you.

Mat 8
10  ...............  Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
11  And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12  But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
13  And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.

In your opinion, who are the children of the kingdom in verse 12, above as opposed to who are the "many that shall come from the east and west" at verse 11??


I agree with what your saying, but how does this answer your opinion that unbelivers who have died will be raised to glory.


Look, it is great you have come out of these denominations, whichever one it was, but one must also, reject and leave behind, false teachings..


I do not see augustine as one who has taught me at all, (as you can see I do not teach sinfull man has free will, in the general sense of the word, man can trust and obey)

Man can "trust" which is a form of beleif without commitment, but can never produce a saving belief (belief with commitment), this is the principle reason why I do not use the word "believe" as a product produced by sinners with regard to the things of God,

because "believe" includes commitment, the problem is most who argue free will are unable to distinguish between the two.

It is a mystery to them..

I simply reject most of what augustine, but do not discount all he ever taught.

However I am leary of any who Rome look up to.  Pelagius was a heretic, yet his teachings ascended to the very seat of Rome, it was only by the effort of Augustine, that this man centered teaching was exposed.

Rome for the most part has always been semi-pelagian, though they would rather say they are semi-Augustinian (so as to sound more moderate in drawing the line between their teachings and Protestantism), the result of the Council of Orange where they struct a deal with the adherents of Pelgius.


But all this does not explain your position of UniversalISM.

Blessings,

Petro