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Title: job 13:15 Post by: ludwig on November 04, 2007, 11:59:31 PM hello everybody I have been meditating on job chapter 13 verse 15 king james says though He slay me yet will I trust Him. that is as clear a contradiction in terms as any. how or what do I make of it?
Title: Re: job 13:15 Post by: Littleboy on November 05, 2007, 01:33:37 AM Hi ludwig,
I take it like this... Even though God was allowing this slow agenizing death(slaying) to come upon him, He will keep his trust in him... And as you know God rewarded him and did'nt kill him... And If you put the whole conversation he's having into proper context, it might become alittle clearer for you. The Pastor might have a better answer for you. this is all i will say about that.. I don't believe that God contradict himself, I believe that man does with his own vainity... Duane Title: Re: job 13:15 Post by: Shammu on November 05, 2007, 02:44:22 AM hello everybody I have been meditating on job chapter 13 verse 15 king james says though He slay me yet will I trust Him. that is as clear a contradiction in terms as any. how or what do I make of it? Man doesn't read the way, they did in 1611. Thats why you should have more then just one Bible. Ludwig there is not a contradiction there. You need to study your BIBLE. Only man is full of contradiction, thinking the Bible has any contradictions, God's Word is prefect. Also when you break apart a verse, of course it won't make sense. The whole verse is needed here. You have to have Faith, that is believing in what is true. Faith has two elements: 1) being convinced of the truth, being certain of reality, having evidence of unseen things. 2) believing, hoping in, embracing, seizing the truth. While faith requires being convinced that what we believe in is true, just knowing the truth is only half of faith. God's word must be hoped for, embraced, seized!! Believing is not exactly the same as faith. For belief to be faith, it must light on what is certainly true. Yet Scripture gives examples of situations where belief alone is required, even commanded. There's no time for evidence collection, to wait, to hear, for certainty. Just believe. Like Peter walking on the water--don't think, act. God even requires us to believe in him when, temporarily, the evidence looks bad: to trust. God requires belief and trust in moments of human weakness, but faith is what makes us strong. Faith is the state of being convinced about what we hope for. Abraham, is an Example of Faith............ Romans 4:18-21 For Abraham, human reason for] hope being gone, hoped in faith that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been promised, So [numberless] shall your descendants be. 19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered the [utter] impotence of his own body, which was as good as dead because he was about a hundred years old, or [when he considered] the barrenness of Sarah's [deadened] womb. 20 No unbelief or distrust made him waver (doubtingly question) concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong and was empowered by faith as he gave praise and glory to God, 21 Fully satisfied and assured that God was able and mighty to keep His word and to do what He had promised. Romans 4:22-25 That is why his faith was credited to him as righteousness (right standing with God). 23 But [the words], It was credited to him, were written not for his sake alone, 24 But [they were written] for our sakes too. [Righteousness, standing acceptable to God] will be granted and credited to us also who believe in (trust in, adhere to, and rely on) God, Who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 Who was betrayed and put to death because of our misdeeds and was raised to secure our justification (our acquittal), [making our account balance and absolving us from all guilt before God]. Now, lets look at it the way it should be read............. Job 13:14-15 I will take my flesh in my teeth, and put my life in my hand. 15 See, he may kill me; I have no hope; but I will defend my ways to his face. 16 This will be my salvation, that the godless shall not come before him. The words in v. 14 seem to be a proverbial statement suggesting that he will now "stake all" or "gamble all" on what he is about to say. In this regard it is similar in thought to 7:11 but even more extremely said. What is the big "gamble" for Job now? Verse 15 is one of the more controversial in the history of the interpretation of Job. The King James version, beloved to many, has, "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him." But that isn't the best translation, as all modern versions recognize. The NRSV has "See he will kill me; I have no hope; but I will defend my ways to his face." Note that the NRSV also has the traditional translation in a footnote, as if even the best translation is almost too controversial in the face of hundreds of years of sermons. But, there we have it. Clines translates, "He may slay me; I am without hope. Yet I will defend my conduct to his face." What would be the difference in interpretation between the KJV and the modern versions? If we adopt the modern version as the best reading, what does the text say? Maybe one of the greatest ironies of Job, the greatest reversals, was in his work with the translators! Title: Re: job 13:15 Post by: Littleboy on November 05, 2007, 01:58:40 PM Sorry, one last word from me on this matter...
I've always told people that just Believing in him means nothing! SATAN & ALL his Angels Believe in him too and we all know where they are! Wide is the gate too destruction and narrow is the Path that leads to God... 1) being convinced of the truth, being certain of reality, having evidence of unseen things. Should'nt there be a NOT in front of "having evidence of unseen things"? "Not having evidence of unseen things" would be Faith, right? or have i missed the meaning of this statement? my 1st example would have to be Thomas who would'nt Believe untill he saw him and stuck his fingers in his nail holes & his pierced side....NO FAITH! Duane Title: Re: job 13:15 Post by: Soldier4Christ on November 05, 2007, 02:13:20 PM The correct wording on this is "the evidence of things not seen".
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. It tells us that faith is the substance of evidence of things not seen. Christians look at the world and through faith see the handiwork of God. God who cannot be seen. Non-Christians look at the world and due to lack of faith all they see is the world. I hope that helps in understanding that. Title: Re: job 13:15 Post by: Littleboy on November 05, 2007, 02:19:37 PM The correct wording on this is "the evidence of things not seen". Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. It tells us that faith is the substance of evidence of things not seen. Christians look at the world and through faith see the handiwork of God. God who cannot be seen. Non-Christians look at the world and due to lack of faith all they see is the world. I hope that helps in understanding that. AMEN Brother... Title: Re: job 13:15 Post by: Def on November 05, 2007, 03:34:26 PM Man doesn't read the way, they did in 1611. Thats why you should have more then just one Bible. Like Job whatever God does to me "it is too late.Ludwig there is not a contradiction there. You need to study your BIBLE. Only man is full of contradiction, thinking the Bible has any contradictions, God's Word is prefect. Also when you break apart a verse, of course it won't make sense. The whole verse is needed here. You have to have Faith, that is believing in what is true. Faith has two elements: 1) being convinced of the truth, being certain of reality, having evidence of unseen things. 2) believing, hoping in, embracing, seizing the truth. While faith requires being convinced that what we believe in is true, just knowing the truth is only half of faith. God's word must be hoped for, embraced, seized!! Believing is not exactly the same as faith. For belief to be faith, it must light on what is certainly true. Yet Scripture gives examples of situations where belief alone is required, even commanded. There's no time for evidence collection, to wait, to hear, for certainty. Just believe. Like Peter walking on the water--don't think, act. God even requires us to believe in him when, temporarily, the evidence looks bad: to trust. God requires belief and trust in moments of human weakness, but faith is what makes us strong. Faith is the state of being convinced about what we hope for. Abraham, is an Example of Faith............ Romans 4:18-21 For Abraham, human reason for] hope being gone, hoped in faith that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been promised, So [numberless] shall your descendants be. 19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered the [utter] impotence of his own body, which was as good as dead because he was about a hundred years old, or [when he considered] the barrenness of Sarah's [deadened] womb. 20 No unbelief or distrust made him waver (doubtingly question) concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong and was empowered by faith as he gave praise and glory to God, 21 Fully satisfied and assured that God was able and mighty to keep His word and to do what He had promised. Romans 4:22-25 That is why his faith was credited to him as righteousness (right standing with God). 23 But [the words], It was credited to him, were written not for his sake alone, 24 But [they were written] for our sakes too. [Righteousness, standing acceptable to God] will be granted and credited to us also who believe in (trust in, adhere to, and rely on) God, Who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 Who was betrayed and put to death because of our misdeeds and was raised to secure our justification (our acquittal), [making our account balance and absolving us from all guilt before God]. Now, lets look at it the way it should be read............. Job 13:14-15 I will take my flesh in my teeth, and put my life in my hand. 15 See, he may kill me; I have no hope; but I will defend my ways to his face. 16 This will be my salvation, that the godless shall not come before him. The words in v. 14 seem to be a proverbial statement suggesting that he will now "stake all" or "gamble all" on what he is about to say. In this regard it is similar in thought to 7:11 but even more extremely said. What is the big "gamble" for Job now? Verse 15 is one of the more controversial in the history of the interpretation of Job. The King James version, beloved to many, has, "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him." But that isn't the best translation, as all modern versions recognize. The NRSV has "See he will kill me; I have no hope; but I will defend my ways to his face." Note that the NRSV also has the traditional translation in a footnote, as if even the best translation is almost too controversial in the face of hundreds of years of sermons. But, there we have it. Clines translates, "He may slay me; I am without hope. Yet I will defend my conduct to his face." What would be the difference in interpretation between the KJV and the modern versions? If we adopt the modern version as the best reading, what does the text say? Maybe one of the greatest ironies of Job, the greatest reversals, was in his work with the translators! i am deeply in Love with Him I would follow Him in Hell If I had to I would accept a hot iron through my heart so i would not lose Him I would vanish for Him I have blind Love for my God.In Jesus christ my Lord Allelouia Allelouia foreevermore kill me if you want .I am dead dead dead...Def (+¸+) by the way He did slay me and toke me in..... |