ChristiansUnite Forums

dear everybody
for a christian is killing justifiable?

since this is a quick question I will reply quickly

Yes.  Murder is not.

If the intention of this post was to insight a debate of whether or not war and such are just.  Let me remind everyone of the most faithful person in Israel was the Roman Centurion.  Jesus did not rebuke him telling him to leave the army or anything of that nature.

In time of war, threat, to life or limb, yes killing is allowed. As Brother Jerry said, murder is not.

Let me emphasize that the taking of a life is not a "good" thing under any circumstances but it is sometimes a necessary thing. We see this lesson being given to us throughout the Bible both in the Old Testament and the New.

Killing under certain circumstances is justifiable for anyone.

What should Christian feel about Capital Punishment?

I disagree with it because I think murderers should have a chance to know God

You will get no argument from me, on that brother. :D

The older members know already. What most of the forum doesn't know is my first wife was killed by a murderer. I brought him to Christ, he is now asst. Pastor of the prison he is in. I'm not sure where he is, because he has been moved. Before he was moved, I recieved a call from him, every two weeks. I also use to visit him in prison.

Though there will be several that will disagree with you on this. Though the others also think that murderers, should have a chance to know God.

When I wrote the last reply, my thoughts were on your wife's murderer. I am glad he found Jesus and can tell others about Jesus.
((dw)) <--- that is a hug

They had that chance before they committed murder, and they will still have that chance before they are executed--if they ever are. Many are on death row for years filing appeal after appeal after appeal. I have no sympathy for murderers. My sympathy is for their victim and the victim's family.

I have sympathy. I don't hate them because if I do, I would be hating a brother or sister if they came to Christ .

If it was for the word of God i will take it patiently,
if it's just someone who wants to rape or hurt my family for money or some other stupid
reason:
I will kill to protect them!

I would too

I think it's wonderful that you could forgive you wife's killer and lead him to God.  That is a wonderful testimony!
However, everyday we read of child abuse, molestation and child rape.  I'm sorry but my feelings are I want them dead.  I cannot imagine what those little children went through and more than any other sin I feel it is unforgivable.  If they are forgiven of God before execution then I will have plenty of time to love them in Heaven.  Until then I think we have a duty to make examples of them, through death, so they will know that it is unacceptable.  Studies have shown that those that hurt children will not change.  They will continue to do it until they are stopped.  I for one do not want to support their sorry lives in prison and as I said before I think we need to set a precedence that it will not be tolerated.
I don't know why I can agree that all should have the chance to come to Lord and be forgiven even in the case of Jeffery Daumer (sp?) but to torture a child, NO.

Do you hate dw's wife's murderer? If you do then you call Jesus a liar. Also wishing someone dead is hating.

Matthew 5 :44 But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! 45 In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. 46 If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. 47 If you are kind only to your friends,[t] how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that.

1 John 3:15 Anyone who hates another Christian* is really a murderer at heart. And you know that murderers don’t have eternal life within them.

1 John 4: 20 If someone says, “I love God,” but hates a Christian brother or sister,* that person is a liar; for if we don’t love people we can see, how can we love God, whom we have not seen? 21 And God himself has commanded that we must love not only him but our Christian brothers and sisters, too

I would have to agree with the pastor & the Brother.
If someone was going to kill me because of the word of God?
I would take it patiently as our lord has shown us to do...
But to die or let a loved one die at the hands of a rapist or robber or some other godless puke!
I Don't think so, Pray that i'm not put in that position!!!
My grandpa was Murdered when my dad was 7 yrs. old, and the person was never caught.
I rely on my God for justice and nobody shall escape it:
Good or Bad, all shall be rewarded/condemned for what we've done/do..

There is a difference between murder and taking someones life (killing). This is not just according to man's laws but also according to God. Murdering someone is to take their life without a cause and often so with malice (hatred). If the brakes on our car go out without any prior indication of them being bad it is not murder if someone loses their life. If a person starts purposefully shooting people (as has been done in many schools across the world) and the only means to stop them from doing so is by killing them it is not murder. If a Soldier or Police Officer must kill someone to prevent a heinous act by another person it is not murder. If a person breaks into your hope and attempts to murder you or your family and the only means to stop them is by killing them it is not murder.

Yes, we are to love our enemies but that does mean that we are not to prevent evil from taking over the world.

I do not wish anyone dead. I do wish that all come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. When a person takes actions of evil intent and those actions require their death to prevent them from harming others then their blood is on their own hands.

I have a number of writings that go with the subject. As soon as I locate them in my files I will post them here.

I have been asked numerous times if it is right for a Christian to be a combat soldier, to kill in combat. In fact this is a question that I had to ask for myself before I decided to join the military.

Nehemiah, a great prophet of God said, "Neh 4:14 And I looked, and rose up, and said unto the nobles, and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people, Be not ye afraid of them: remember the Lord, which is great and terrible, and fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses. "

Some people support the belief that as a Christian we are to be pacifists. Using scripture such as "Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." and " Luk 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. " to support their belief. Based on these verses and others such as Luk 3:14 and Mat 26:52 they stand by the belief that the New Testament teachings are of pacificism.

When the verse (Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.)is taken by itself it does appear that Jesus is teaching complete pacifism. If we look at this verse and study its complete meaning we find that He is talking about civil matters between two individuals. The statement "smite thee on thy right cheek" was used in that time as an indication of an applied insult between two people. Not a physical threat to do bodily harm.

Reading further into the next verse (Mat 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.) we can see that Jesus is talking about civil matters, matters of the legal process and how to avoid staying out of courts.

If we are to apply this to matters of war then is when we have people saying that the Bible contradicts itself or that God has changed. There are no contradictions in scriptures there are misunderstandings in mans mind of them. We know that neither are true because God never changes:

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

In regards to Luk 3:14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

John is telling the Soldier to be a good soldier, not one that is using unnecessary force or wrongly accusing someone. After all he did not tell the soldier to quit being a soldier which is evidenced by his statement "be content with your wages". The soldiers at that time were being offered a bounty in addition to their wages for each person that they brought in that was in defiance of the laws. Many of them were beating up and wrongly accusing individuals in order to collect this extra money. This is what John was talking about, not pacifism.

In the verse "Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." it was in reference of going against the local authorities and in reference to stopping the soldiers from taking Jesus. Jesus knew what was required of Him and that such an action would prevent His going to the cross as is evidenced in the verses that followed this one.

Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
Mat 26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

Complete pacifism is a non biblical position. Although being able to appeal to superficial arguments of conscience and quote the odd verse out of content - the whole spirit and thrust of pacifism is anti Christian. Pacifists may be sincere - but they are sincerely wrong.

A Christian, by definition, must be active - with his or her sleeves rolled up, being willing to get his hands dirty protecting the innocent, defending the defenceless and saving lives from unprovoked aggression. Christian love is not mere words and sentiments. True love shows itself in action. (1 John 3:18). If all Christians refuse to fight then it will leave the battle fields in the hands of men without a conscience.

cont'd

Pacifism finds it's rots in HUMANISM. Despite some impressive but superficial Christian pretension, pacifism is humanism. In common with humanism, pacifism shares a false idea of man. It sees man as basically good. To the pacifist all people are just too good to kill. Neither rapists, murderers nor terrorists deserve to be stopped, in the view of the pacifist.
In contrast to this notion of people being basically good, the Bible teaches us that the heart of man is desperately wicked and deceitful;that they are quick to hurt and kill; they leave ruin and destruction wherever they go... everyone has sinned and is far away from God's saving presence. (Romans 3:15,23) Pacifists often display more concern for the aggressor than for the defender, more sympathy for the criminal than for his victim.

Our Lord Jesus may have been meek but He was never mild! His teaching was powerful, dynamic, direct and uncompromising. This tough carpenter from Nazareth was able to survive forty days fasting in the desert and forty lashes from the brutal Roman whip. He could walk hundreds of kilometers in the blazing heat of Palestine's inhospitable terrain and He could walk through a murderous mob with such a presence that no-one dared stop Him (Luke 4:28-30).
When Jesus saw how corrupt men were desecrating the temple with their money-grabbing greed, He made a whip, overturned their tables and drove them forcibly from God's House (Matthew 21:12-13).

Jesus told His disciples, "Luk 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

When Jesus returns to this world it will be as the conquering King of Kings and Lord of Lords. The Bible teaches us that the first time Jesus came as a Saviour - and all who turn from their sin and trust in Christ, following Him in obedience, are saved. But when Jesus comes again it will be as Judge - and all who have not repented and obeyed will be condemned and eternally punished. The Scripture warns us that when Jesus returns He will annihilate the forces of the false church and the Antichrist. We are told that rivers of blood will flow from the carnage of mankind's rebellion against Christ (Revelation 14:19-20).

"....... and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. (Revelation 19:11,15,16).

Pacifism also has an unrealistic view of society. The reality of this world is that it is a fallen world, inhabited by sinful mankind in rebellion against the Creator. Idealistic fantasies about a world of peace and Utopia without war are cruelly false and dangerously deceptive. In the Bible we are warned that those who say 'Peace! Peace!' when there is no peace are 'loathsome' false prophets (Jeremiah 6:!4; 8:11). Jesus warned us that 'wars and revolutions' would increase (Matthew 24:6,7; Luke 21:9,10). We are warned in the scriptures that 'While people are saying 'Peace and Safety', destruction will come on them suddenly.' (I Thessalonians 5:3)

'PEACE' seems to be the modern equivalent of Baal worship. There is an irrational worship of peace. This selfish materialistic age has made an idol out of peace. 'Peace at any price' inevitably leads to tyranny and destruction - the peace of a graveyard.

People say that war is hell - but often peace is worse. More people died in the peace following the revolution in CAMBODIA than died in the entire war before it. Three-milion Cambodians (40% of the population) were slaughtered by Pol Pot's Marxist Khmer Rouge in the 'peace' following 1975. In fact, more people have been tortured, maimed and massacred in times of peace than in times of war during the last century!

Have we become so soft, decadent and self-seeking that we are no longer willing to risk our lives for anything? Is nothing worth fighting for? Do we have nothing worth defending? Do we care so little for others that we're unwilling to risk anything for their protection? Are we so engrossed in watching videos, in 'wine, women and song' that we can no longer tell the difference between right and wrong? Or don't we even care?

For centuries Christians have believed that there were worse things than war. For our ancestors death in battle was not the worst thing that could happen to them. An eternity in hell was. They did not fear death. They feared God. They realised that death for the Christian is not fatal. They had a clear belief in eternal life. Principles were more important then personal safety. Duty, honor, country, family and God meant more to them than selfish desires for peace and safety. And thank God for that because the faith and freedoms we enjoy were won and preserved by their blood, sweat and sacrifices.

The wise Christian does not seek to selfishly avoid the problems of this world, but courageously steps out in faith to be part of the solution. We should recognize that sinful man needs to be restrained by laws and by force, that liberty needs to be defended, that our freedoms came through, and often need to be maintained by hard fighting.

If all Christians became pacifists, would all non-Christians also become pacifists?
Not likely.

It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism - while the wolf remains of a different opinion (-W. R. Inge). The Bible declares: 'Blessed are the peacemakers' - Matthew 5:9. NOT blessed are the pacifists! You have to make peace. It takes action. For the pacifists hoping for worldwide peace - Jesus said: 'Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.' (Matthew 10:34)

Actually, no I don't hate DW wife's murderer.  I think it's wonderful and awesome that DW could forgive him and lead him to Christ and that the man is now sharing the gospel in prison.  Nothing excites me more than when one more comes to Christ!  The alter call is my favorite part of any service.  It is only in the case of children that I get so riled up and sick to my stomach.  That is why I asked the question in the first place.  It's something that I really struggle with.  Especially since we are to, "Judge not" and God says, "Vengeance is Mine" so I know this is something that I need to leave in God's hands.  Knowing that God will prevail and that, "All knees will bow" is where I get my peace from or a lest being able to cope with it and hang on.  But it still makes me incredably angry when I hear of these poor children again and again and again.

Thank you Pastor Roger!  That was fabulous and clear!

Another Amen Pastor Roger!

I was just thinking that I know GOD many times uses the strong to protect and care for the weak, the ill, the elderly, and the children. I was also thinking about a Christian man protecting his family or a Christian woman protecting her children. YES - I would give up my life to protect my family or in many other circumstances. However, that doesn't mean that I would give up my life without a fight. If I did that, who would be left to defend my family? It is right for me to defend my family, and it's also right for Christians to serve as soldiers, police officers, and many other dangerous occupations.

You are completely right about pacifists being more identified with humanism. We can see countless examples of GOD'S Warriors throughout the Bible. This does not hint that we should enjoy violence, rather that it is right to protect the weak from injustice. For the reasons you mentioned, I know that GOD has a worthy use for Christians in service to others.

Love In Christ,
Tom

I believe there is no justification for any killing. Christ taught us to turn the other cheek and even by His own example of how He lived without reviling or fighting back in any instant. 1 Peter 2:18-25 is an excellent scripture for this. Luke 3:14  "And the soldiers likewise, demanded of him saying, and what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages"

As Christians we are to be Christ-like, and in no instant under any circumstances did Christ allow killing.

I can clearly see that you have not read this entire thread and are relying on just a few verses for your stance and not placing them in the context that they were given.

He did not turn the other cheek in dealing with the money changers that blasphemed the temple. Jesus had no need to protect Himself in such a manner either. He could have had a legion of Angels at a split seconds notice. Instead He chose to go to the cross for us. Without that choice we all would still be lost. One day He will return and He won't be turning the other cheek in dealing with those that have rejected Him. It will be with a sword of wrath.

So if you, yourself are threated by death you will not defend yourself. Thats what I am reading.

Since the 60’s, in the US, there has been a dramatic increase in crime rates yet we should not forget that common dangers and evil have existed in every generation. Can you be true to your faith and yet be forceful, aggressive or even violent? Maybe being passive isn’t the acceptable way to deal with threats? Consider how improving your physical fitness and personal faith in Christ go hand-in-hand in not only keeping yourself and your family safe, but also those around you.

Consider what is good and reasonable from both a faith and legal perspective. Sometimes the biblical concept of “Turn the other cheek” (which guides us to have a spirit of no retribution and to forgive) is incorrectly used. It doesn’t mean you’re NOT to defend yourself.

Read the full verse in context now.

Matthew 5:38-39 You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. 39 But I say to you, Do not resist the evil man [who injures you]; but if anyone strikes you on the right jaw or cheek, turn to him the other one too.

The verse provides instruction on how to respond to an insult or provocation (ie. backhanded slap to the cheek). Not a violent assault. Today’s equivalent would be a shove or getting spit on. In this case we have every moral and legal obligation to walk away or try to calm the situation. The Bible provides guidance that leads us to spiritual maturity. Can you forgive and pray for your enemy? With any use-of-force, self defense case a judge and jury will consider what you did to avoid or diffuse the situation and any force used (including deadly force) must have been reasonable.

Jesus taught us about love and compassion, even for our enemies. But he also confronted the leaders of his day with boldness. He overturned tables and cleared the temple of vendors with a makeshift whip! He did it righteously and without sin.

Just before his arrest and execution, Jesus gave some final instruction to the apostles who were with him. He had often sent them out to surrounding towns telling them to go with nothing.  (This isn’t the passive image of Jesus you have created.) Yet, they would draw their weapons for defense during the arrest of Jesus. Peter struck out with his weapon and cut off the ear of a Malchus.

Matthew 26:50-52 Jesus said to him, Friend, for what are you here? Then they came up and laid hands on Jesus and arrested Him. 51 And behold, one of those who were with Jesus reached out his hand and drew his sword and, striking the body servant of the high priest, cut off his ear. 52 Then Jesus said to him, Put your sword back into its place, for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

I would guess he was aiming for more than the Malchus’s ear. Jesus told them to put their weapons away or they would die fighting. He knew the arrest was in God’s timing and plan. Jesus had also stated that there was no greater love than to lay down your life for another, the ultimate sacrifice.

Hello Jimacki,

You need to put Scripture into context and understand the meaning by the specific time and circumstances. GOD has ordered HIS armies into battle many times throughout history, and many people were killed. At the Second Coming of CHRIST, JESUS CHRIST Himself will kill MILLIONS, and that time might be soon.

Sooner or later, you will be in a situation worthy of your defending someone else - maybe even your own children or grandchildren. There won't always be someone else to defend them for you or someone to call like the police. If the circumstances are worthy, you will be wrong if you neglect your duty. Please do go back and carefully read this entire thread. Nobody here is suggesting violence over an insult or a civil matter. Surely you wouldn't watch and do nothing while a madman was butchering a child, would you? You would be WRONG if you did.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 3:11-13 NASB
This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him. Therefore I ask you not to lose heart at my tribulations on your behalf, for they are your glory.

I did read the thread. And no my scriptures were not taken out of context. I gave a quick response to a quick question to which we could do a very lengthy study on. Of which multiple scriptures show under the New Covenent we are to Love our enemies. And that Love is God and the foundation of our faith. A faith which worketh by Love. An unconditional Love I found is the only way to heal, no matter what the situation. I speak from experience. Love does not kill in any situation.

Okay so what would you do if someone was attacking someone you care about?

This is something that many in the anti-war group does not comprehend  ... to be able to love your neighbor yet at the same time be able to kill those that refuse to be peaceful with others.

Let's look at one of the verses that you gave,

Luk 3:14  And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.


violence = diaseiō   This Greek word means "to intimidate", "to shake thoroughly". This is the only time this word is used in the New Testament. This is a Greek word that shows in many old non-scripture manuscripts that indicate a Soldiers misuse of their position such as "to shake (seismic disturbance, earthquake) thoroughly (dia) and so thoroughly to terrify, to extort money or property by intimidating". It is obvious that this is speaking of not misusing the Soldiers position against those that are not opposing them, those that are compliant with civil peace. A Soldiers job is to kill when it is absolutely necessary. Take note that this Soldier was not told to give up his position as a Soldier.

We also see in Acts 10 where a Centurion (Soldier) was considered to be a great man of God, a Soldier that had killed or ordered those to be killed. Again this Soldier was not told to stop being a Soldier.

Yes, Jesus forgave murderers and adulterers in the New Testament because they were repentant but He also said that those that are not repentant will face death.

I was asked what would I do if someone I cared about was attacked ?  The only way I know how to respond to that question is to ask how would Jesus react or how did the disciples and apostles react in scripture.
Violence, bitterness, and anger were all a part of my past to the point where anger was an addiction, and I did end up in prison for a long term for it.( I deserved it )
And now for me to react with any anger in any situation is something I can not do, I will not fall back into my old ways and a person can live an anger free life through Christ, as impossible as this seems. Things that are impossible with men are possible with God !! Amen!!

Herein lies the problem that many have. Being able to react to stop the violence of others without feeling anger towards the attacker. Anger usually turns one from a defender into an aggressor. What I mean by this is that a person in anger goes further than is necessary to stop the aggressor. When a person is a defender and has love for all they will do only what is absolutely necessary to stop the aggressor and to protect those being attacked. This is showing love for the aggressor as will as the victim. After all if there is love for all then we would not want even the aggressor to become a murderer and have to face the consequences of such. Unfortunately there comes a time that the only way to stop an aggressor is to kill them because of the anger and hatred that they have and the determination they have for killing others.

I do not want to see anyone die under any circumstances, especially so without coming to the Lord first and definitely not by my own hands. I would rather though see that happen than to see someone else that is innocent, perhaps a child, be killed or tormented by the attacker. I will not, cannot stand by and do nothing if another persons life is in danger. That would make me just as guilty as the attacker.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

Amen to that Pastor Roger!  And again, well stated!  Thanks.

Amen brother Roger.

My question has not been answered.

You hold back the attacker, however the attacker is stronger and attacks you. Your friend, if not too hurt, helps you. Both of you try to run but he faster, there is no calling police. Would you kill him? You can't let him both of you.

It takes a strong & faithfull man to do that,
I'm so sorry to hear of your loss...
My grandfather was murdered in the 1940's and no bodies ever been caught...
I've thought about that person before & have prayed for him too,
I have full confiedance in the Judgment & Mercy of our God!
One of my cousins was murdered by an illegal alien about 10 yrs ago...
My family has fought & died for this country, before its begining, and they did'nt go
thru all that for nothing OR have they?
It's allright though our day is coming and so is theirs, unless they comply!

Hello Littleboy,

The people who fought for freedom and to end oppression will never be forgotten. Not a drop of their sweat and blood was in vain. It appears that we have more than one conversation going on here. The subject is legal and authorized force, not illegal violence. There are also very specific Bible instructions that apply.

There isn't any Bible instruction that prevents reasonable defense and protection of the innocent. GOD was never wrong in sending HIS armies into battle, and JESUS CHRIST won't be wrong at HIS SECOND COMING.

We weren't talking about senseless violence or acts that are against the law. King David and countless others considered to be GOD'S Warriors were NOT wrong unless GOD specifically said they were wrong. We certainly won't be calling GOD wrong or calling JESUS CHRIST wrong at HIS SECOND COMING. GOD wasn't wrong with the flood either. There is a big difference between lawful and unlawful actions. The Bible tells us to render under Caesar what is his, and part of that might involve being drafted into military service. However, we have an all volunteer military, and being a soldier is a lawful and honorable profession. Soldiers also have laws to obey. If they violate those laws, they will be punished. I would like to repeat that the subject of this thread IS NOT illegal, unnecessary, or senseless force. Maybe this will help us all get on the right sheet of music. Jimacki, does this help you out some?

Love In Christ,
Tom

Galatians 2:19-21 NASB
"For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

I don't believe the Bible forbids capital punishment, but I have two concerns about it:

1. As other have mentioned, it doesn't allow the person a chance to repent and come to know Christ. You are essentially sending someone to Hell.

2. The number of people released in recent years due to DNA evidence has sapped my faith in the Judicial system to convict the right people. Too often the authorities just seem to be in a hurry to arrest and convict someone and move on. If some evidence comes up that throws doubt on the conviction, they resist reopening the case whether or not an innocent man is in prison. If the person is executed beforehand, you are essentially killing an innocent person for a crime someone else committed.

I would limit capital punishment to extremely horrible crimes, and even then only to those where there is absolutely no doubt who is guilty.

Rhys...
On point #2 you cannot fault the judicial system for ignorance of something that was not even invented.  DNA evidence is a relatively new technology.  And as far as cases of people being released because of it, are old cases and the people were put away because the evidence pointed to them, and a jury of their peers said they did it.  The judicial system we have works, are there problems with it?  Yes...it takes far to long for appeals to be heard, someone can appeal far too many times.  And we do not put enough money into the penal system to house the prisoners so instead we let them go back out into the street. 

There is crime in other countries.  But in other countries where they are ALOT tougher on their criminals they have alot less crime of that sort.  In Egypt if you are drinking and driving...you can be punished by death...they have very little drinking and driving.  I personally think that is a bit excessive...however if you have a judicial system that acts upon what it says it will do...20 years for a crime should mean 20 years, not 5.  Then crime would go down.

I can fault them for not thoroughly investigating the crimes to begin with and for not fairly trying them. In most of these cases there was other evidence that would cast doubt upon the verdict, but it was withheld by the prosecution to get a verdict or kept out of court on technicalities. Often the person accused couldn't afford a competent lawyer.

The judicial system also spends way too much time on trivia and technicalities and seems to have little interest in determining the truth.

As far as not putting enough money into the penal system, I believe we already have a higher proportion of our population in jail than any other country. Prison should only be for violent crimes, those involving arms, and people who are a danger to society. Others should be made to pay restitution as the Bible states, and/or work at community service - not the pleasant kind but hard manual labor.

As to appeals and the time it takes, I agree - and even a first trial takes way too long to get to. But part of this is that we have way too many laws. We are trying to regulate every aspect of human behavior with laws, and many are passed to please special interest groups. As an old Chinese proverb says: "The more laws there are the more lawbreakers there will be". If we got rid of about 3/4 of our laws the courts would be freed up to try the important ones at a much quicker pace, with much less "plea bargaining".

Courts often aren't fair and appeals are necessary. Don't forget the Apostle Paul used the appeals process of his time.

Tougher penalties don't necessarily cut crime. Death for drinking and driving is excessive to say the least. When I lived in Nova Scotia years ago they could confiscate your car and sell it for even having an open container. You didn't get the money. There were very few drunk driving accidents.

What does cut crime is a clear and quick relationship between crime and punishment. When years drag by before a sentence is passed, everyone has forgotten about the crime. Meantime the person is usually out on the street so it looks like nothing happened to them. Even if convicted they often are soon back out due to prison overcrowding. I agree fully with you that 20 years should be 20 years, and I further believe concurrent sentencing should be done away with. But I still disagree with the death penalty as once a person is dead there is no remedy if the courts made a mistake, which they too often do.

Hi Brother Tom,
I think that ii've been mis-understood Brother ?
The strong and faithful man was for the man who lost his wife & was able to forgive the guy that did it & did alot of other things with him..
I just thought that was pretty strong of a person, I could'nt do it...
I said this before on a different reply:
If it was for the word of God (like being made to take the mark 666) I would die as my lord did 'without a fight"
If it was just some puke !
Lord knows I would kill, I would also die for a friend...
I know all about how God works when it comes to his wars...
I've been telling people for over 30 yrs. about Joshua's battles where God had them kill everyone, even their animals..
And i did'nt say anything about soldiers,brother
Do you really believe that people remember?
Look around this country is going to hell in a hand basket, An old war hero can't even get a free cup of coffee these days,
That isn't what my family died for...

Now to the ? @ hand:
David J, i'm wondering something, IF me & my friend could'nt over power this strong man in the begining of your ?
and now my friend could be hurt & we've been running too!
I doubt if i would be in any condition to fight, let alone kill anyone!
I would if i had too!
A loving brother Duane

True, point is that you would continue to fight.

Without a doubt, Brother!

What an excellent distinction between killing and murder.  Thank you so much for your insight. God Bless, Eva

Jesus asks us to forgive, thats all I have done. Yes I brought him to Christ but, I couldn't do it without forgiveness. Chances are you can do it as well by forgiving someone.

Chances are you won't understand my decision, unless you have walked in my shoes. I also pray none of y'all ever have to either. Through my decision was hard, God has given me another wife..... Lizzie. :D :D :D

And I've never been happier, praise Jesus.

Hello Littleboy,

I didn't misunderstand you. I know that we are really having three or four different conversations in the same thread. That makes things pretty confusing unless you reply specifically with a quote. Some are talking about soldiers on a battlefield - some about capital punishment - some about defending your family in your own home - and maybe more. Quite a few of us on the forum spent most of our lives in dangerous occupations protecting and defending the innocent. I'm almost sure that we have members from all of the armed forces, and I know that we have at least one police officer.

We also have a wonderful example of forgiveness in this thread, so this is one of those (multi)multi-faceted threads.  I don't know how many "multi multi" is right now, and it might be a matter of opinion about how many conversations we have going at once.   :D

I'll just say that I give thanks that I didn't have to kill anyone in 25 years of police work. It came close numerous times, and I was ready and able with all of the moral and Biblical issues already worked out and settled in my heart and mind. I would not have enjoyed taking someone's life, but I would have done my duty. I know that Christians in the military must also have these issues settled. One doesn't have a week to make a decision on the street or on the battlefield.

Love In Christ,
Tom

I would limit capital punishment to extremely horrible crimes, and even then only to those where there is absolutely no doubt who is guilty.
Quote from Rhys

I actually have to agree with this statement.  And the only ones I feel that it would apply to is those who've been caught harming the children.  This is heinous and I truly believe we are at "war" with it so it's justified.  Read the news.  It's there every singel day.
Of course as a Christian with a HUGE heart and much compassion I want everyone that can come, to be with the Lord.  Somehow I find it easier to forgive murder of many different degrees and even to pray for their souls.  But molesting, raping and killing babies, I cannot.  And one reason I cannot, as I've said before, is that the stats show that sex offenders will continue in their sick perversion if let out of prison.  I also don't think it is unfair for the victims and society in general to have to support them while they sit in prison reading, watching TV, playing ping pong, card, checkers, etc, etc. while destruction of the worst kind is laying behind them.
I am so sick of hearing about the perps rights also, and the unfair treatment they get in prison.  They LOST THEIR RIGHTS!  They should have no rights.  Null and void.  CANCELED.

All I have left to say is that, this is an evil world and not our home. God's judgement is coming

Come, Lord Jesus, Come.
Amen and Amen.  :D

Amen & God Bless you Tom,
Thank you for keeping people safe & all you've done for our country,
I'm an OL'Devil Dog myself...  "Alway's Faithful"
Keep on, keeping on Brother!

Rhys,

Sorry for delay there..missed this one

Investigators investigate a crime until they have all the evidence they need. 
Imagine if you will.  You bust into a locked room, there is a dead man on the floor.  And there is a man standing over him with the gun that shot him in his hand.  There is gun shot residue on his hand and some blood spatter on his clothes.  Did this man shoot him?  He says that he did not.  HOw far should an investigator go?  This man says he just came in and say the dead guy, picked up the gun and it accidentally went off.  Then the police barged in...  How long do you keep this guy hanging while you investigate other "possibilities".  Remember that the other possibilities are endless...there could have been aliens that came down and shot the guy.  Jesus could be passing judgement one person at a time and with a Smith and Wesson. 

Technicalities.  Pesky problem they are.  However I tend to believe that if it is not credible witness testimony, or cold hard facts.  And I would honestly believe that there were more cases of guilty defendants that were thrown out of court on technicalities than there were wrongfully sentenced people on technicalities. 

Going to love this...technically...the judicial system is not about "determining" truth.  It is about determining legalities based on current law.  20-30 years ago there were no laws pertaining to data intrusions.  They were legal under the law.  So the law had to be altered to include it.

While I would agree that is not anything that can be done overnight.  We have bread a country of criminals that have no respect for the law at all.  So suddenly letting the habitual drunk driver off with just doing some work is like a slap on the hand.  And as far as hard labor...we have far to many ACLU wannabees and such out there that would scream bloody murder if a prisoner had to do anything harder than picking up the trash on the side of the road.

hi everybody the subject of killing or taking a human life or even an animal's life is a complex one.  we are taught by Christ that even hating is considered killing. aside from man's law distinguishing killing from murdering God has an absolute commandment Thou shalt not kill.  PERIOD.  the difficulty is that whereas the old testament reports killing enemies in the name of the Lord the new testament wants us to be like Christ humble gentle kind and all that.  isn't that a contradiction?  I have always been against capital punishment. take a small example - david and goliath.  we glibly refer to that as an example of faith.  killing a human?  wasn't goliath a human?  what's our stand as christians? the issue of killing is not so simple.  take the subject of terrorism.  it is said that the koran and the bible meet on common ground where the old testament is concerned.  in the old testament the idea of the Lord's people wiping out the enemies is a  recurring one.  i think the idea of jihad in the koran is similar.  how is it that we christians don't go out and kill enemies in the name of the Lord these days?  isn't the answer obvious?

No the koran teachings and the Old Testament teachings do not coincide and no there is not a contradiction between the Old and New Testament teachings in this subject. The only contradiction between OT and NT and any comparison between the koran and the OT are just in man's mind and is a misunderstanding of the teachings of the Bible. Jesus even explained this in great detail. As I have already said, unfortunately many take this to one extreme or the other.

Hi ludwig,

It is fairly clear that the Bible manifests the attribute of having many specifically fulfilled prophetic predictions, which constitutes powerful evidence that the Bible truly originates from true prophets of the true almighty God. The Bible meets the challenge which God set out. To predict events of human history. In contrast, however, there does not seem to be a single specific prediction of human history in the Koran which is unique and original to the Koran and was not found in the Bible first such as some end-time judgment concepts. This lack of predictive power is an announcement that the Koran does not clearly demonstrate God's power and authority within its pages. It fails to meet God's challenge.

What's more, when the Bible's predictive prophecies by comparison are pulled into the discussion, the failure of the Koran to demonstrate such power of truly being authored by the true God stands out even more. This situation is glaringly exhibited when one compares it to something like the amazing accuracy of the predictive prophecy of Jeremiah concerning the 70-year captivity of Judah in Babylon, which ended right at 70 years!

Similar to Jeremiah's 70-year prophecy, the prophet Daniel accurately predicted the year hundreds of years in advance in which Jesus of Nazareth would be ministering! And if you want to study that particular prediction more in depth, as well as additional fulfilled predictions from the Bible, they can be found on the forum, using the Advanced Search function (http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?action=search;advanced) on the forum.

If any prophecy is found in the Koran which is virtually and essentially the same as a predictive prophecy from the Bible, then that quranic prophecy must be regarded as having been copied and originally coming from the Bible so it cannot be credited to the Koran as a prediction, because the Bible is hundreds of years older than the Koran, and it is well known that Mohammed studied and discussed the Bible with both Christians and Jews in Syria and Medina.

It might be possible (but I doubt it) that Mohammed never actually intended to be considered a prophet, nor that the Koran was to be thought of as scripture, but that Mohammed just wanted to write commentary and human opinions about God, so that the Koran may be considered to be a history, or great prose and poetry, and a religious commentary, however, it cannot be said to be actual scripture with the true words of God.

The Koran does accept the Bible as being true revelation from God, however, the Bible's standard rejects the Koran as revelation from God because the predictive power of God is not present there. The only true and tested Word of God, is the Bible. Heaven and Earth may pass away, but it will never pass away Matthew 24:35  and we can trust these words from Jesus, because he gave a prophetic prediction among other predictions that he would be resurrected after being dead for three days Matthew 12:40, 16:21 and resurrect he did!

May I suggest that you read some of Peaceful religion isn't spelled Islam (http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=8327.0) this link is on the forum.

One thing to add DW is that the Koran does accept that the Jews and the Christians were given the revelations by God....however it teaches that the Jews and the Christians twisted the Word of God.  Islam teaches that what we call the Bible is a corrupted book that man has altered and twisted to serve his own purpose. 
That is how they defend themselves against Christian teachings by laying claim to our book being corrupted.

Yet, recently an imam just came out in so many words and said the koran was corrupt (naturally they didn't use that specific word as it would have been considered blasphemous) and a group of them are rewriting it to make it more compliant.

This too is what I've come to learn about that....

Brothers and Sisters,

The real story would be LIKE me plagiarizing portions of Psalms that I liked - changing things however I want them - removing some portions - adding some portions - and calling the ancient one FALSE and the new one REAL. In other words, THEFT AND FRAUD. They would have been better off in just making up a completely new religion. Recorded history would also have to be wrong. This is one sad and obviously unbelievable story.

The above is just an example. The facts are ugly and not nearly as nice.

In the Hebrew,in which it was written in,it does not say
Thou shalt not kill,it says No murder. There is a BIG
difference between Murder & Kill.


                          Yours in Yeshua,
                          Curious