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World daily news reports...
Bio-chip implant arrives for cashless transactions
Announcement at global security confab unveils syringe-injectable ID microchip.  

The implications of this should ring loud and clear (Rev 13:16-17).  If you don't know the Lord, now would be a good time to inquire.

Read the entire article here...
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35766

Following a few of the links from the article, the question is already being asked..."couldn't this be a prototype of the mark of the beast mentioned in Revelation?"  One university professor responds that the mark of the beast speaks about buying and selling, and that the mark is coerced.  

A Further question regarding this.


A few things come to mind at first.  As we all know, a drivers licsense is not coerced, however imagine life without one.   Another funny argument is about the First Amendment.  We've all seen in recent years and months how the constitution is being attacked but I digress.

Not that I think any inplanted chip in and of itself is the mark of the beast (and I wouldn't want one anyways), but its obvious that this is one more thing spoken about in Revelation that is becoming reality in our time, before our very eyes.  The chess board is setting up nicely for all events in Revelation to begin.

Oklahoma Howdy to 2nd Timothy,

I don't know about the chip being or becoming the mark of the beast. Regardless, I think we are seeing a preview of the end times. One of the things I have to be most thankful for is that my entire family is saved. I understand how sad it can be in many families to think about those who are lost.

This old world is a sad and evil place. I love the Sunday School Song, "This little light of mine, I'm going to let it shine." That's what all of our Brothers and Sisters should do until Jesus comes to take us home.

Love In Christ,
Tom

 

A physical manifestation is possible, but I think that the angels will see the mark or seal of the Holy Spirit that is on Christians and the mark that is of the beast is similar - unseen in the physical but seen in the spiritual.

Please note that the angels that seal up (scribe in ezechiel) the ones that sigh and cry for the problems in the city are followed by the angels of destruction/wrath.

So, short before the wrath people will be sealed.


Eze 7:25     Destruction cometh; and they shall seek peace, and [there shall be] none.

Eze 9:9     [...] the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not.

Rev 9:4     And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Eze 9:4     And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

Eze 9:5     And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

So the peace talks will be here to stay until the "sudden destruction that cometh upon them".

With all this talk about the mark of the beast.

Allow me to ask a question;

Is it possible for Christians to receive this mark, in whatever  form it is??

Or, not?

It is given to understand that, those who do not worship the beast are caused to be slain. (Rev 13:15)

Rev 13
16  And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

The mark affects all men on the earth one way or the other, can any who receive it be saved?

It is clear to me, there are those who live thruogh the tribulation which will be saved.......


Blessings,
Petro

   It is IMPOSSIBLE for a true Christian to receive the mark of the beast. The true Church will be Raptured a minimum of 1260 days before the mark of the beast is issued. Those who come to faith in Christ AFTER the Rapture will be Tribulation Saints, many of them martyred for refusal to accept the mark.

     Anyone who accepts the mark of the beast will be damned. The church's destiny is to be in Heaven from chapter 4 of Revelation through chapter 19.

     No Tribulation Saint will take the mark, those destined will be taken captive and martyred.

      Revelation is a scary book if you fail to understand the format given in the KEY verse of the Book, Revelation 1:19.

      For more details see the posts I wrote on the "Rapture season 2006-2007" by Two Bombs in the prophecy section.

                              Paul2

AMEN!!! Paul2 AMEN!!!

I agree, receiving the mark seems to imply you cannot be saved.  Now it does in Rev, he caused all to receive a mark, then in other places it speaks of those who come through the trib being saved.   Yet again in other places, it speaks of those who had received the mark were deluded by the beast, those who had received the mark when the first angel poors out his bowl break out in sores.  

Some contradiction here and there about if everyone here receives the mark or not.  Clearly we are given a verse that allows some who have wisdom to calculate the mark, and no its curse.   As Paul2 says, I believe the church is gone at this time, but it seems that some will resist taking the mark as some come through the trib without it.  Those who take the mark are deluded or caused to be deceived by a lie, and worship the beast.   Perhaps there are pockets of resistance that don't take the mark....and arent matyred.  Speculation, but it does say some will come through without receiving it.

Grace and Peace!

This precisely why I asked the question.

I am thinking of Mat 24, and what Jesus said;  

21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

And I almost think, that the the day in view herein at verse  27 of Mat 24;

27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


has got to be the same day as Daniels day mentioned at;

Dan 12
12  Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Now if one doesn't believe Jesus is returning to earth to reign physically from Jerusalem, Daniels prophecy doesn't have to be the same day, it could be another day.

The problem I see herein is, Daniels day is mid tribulation, yet the Lords return at Mat 24 is imediately after the thye tribulatyion of those day, and at his return will be His pouring out of His wrath upon the ungodly, the tribulation is brought about by Satan that old serpent, who comes is come down unto the earth, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Rev 12:12.


Blessings,

Petro,

Firstly, (Not that you are saying this at all, but I just wanted to be clear for others reading along) I do not believe a persons stand on pre, mid, or post Rapture has any bearing on ones salvation.  I believe most christians would accept this point.

Now, the debate about whether or not the rapture is pre or post trib is an argument that has scripture to support both conclusions.   Both sides make a good case, but in my view, the "imminency" doctrine holds more water than that of the post tribulation rapture.  Believers back in bible days were greeting each other by saying "Maranatha", which means "Our Lord comes"...almost as if they were willing him to come, or expecting it at any time.

We are continually told to keep watch, be ready, for you know not when your lord returns, such as the parable of the 10 Virgins.  No man knows the day nor hour, but only the father.   To me, if the tribulation period started today, we would know exactly when the midway point is reached by the desecration that is to happen in the temple, thus making known when christ would return to the day going by Daniels timing.   This argument makes it sound as though the return is prevented until certain events take place, thus negating any reason to remain in readiness, or being watchful for the blessed hope.  Thus the saying, let us eat drink and be merry, for our lord tarry's.  Not to mention, that a post trib rapture, catches us up in the air to meet him, only to make an immediate u-turn and come right back down to our wicked earth and set up camp for 1000 years peace.   What happend to the place he went to prepare for us in his fathers mansion?   His bride going through great wrath that he himself will pour out upon the earth, such as NEVER seen before....even the flood of Noah?   Where is the blessed hope in this?  I don't see it.   Just because Elect are seen being rescued by cutting time short, does not mean those elect are individuals who will seek salvation after the rapture occurs.  I believe churches will be full of people seeking God after the rapture.  Much like what happened after 9-11.  But it was short lived then, as it will most likely be then.

To be fair, I do realize that there are some contradictory  verses on the issue, that seem to indicate the opposite.  I guess one just has to weigh the balance of scripture in their own heart, and try to rightly divide the truth to come to a conclusion about this matter.  For me, thus far, the immenant return scriptures seem to have much more weight than that of a post trib, which submits the bride to the grooms wrath right before the honeymoon.

To highlight the imminency doctrine, here are some verses that lend to it.
*****************************************
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Mat 24:36).
Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him” (Mat 25:1-6)

"Take ye heed, watch and pray; for ye know not when the time is. For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the Master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly He find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch" (Mark 13:33-37).

"Knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light" (Rom 13:11-12).

"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come" (1 Thess 1:10).

"Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober" (1 Thess 5:6).

"Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13).

"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation" (Heb 9:28).

"Let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the Day approaching" (Heb 10:24-25).

"For yet a little while, and He that shall come will come, and will not tarry" (Heb 10:37).

"Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:13).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life" (Jude 1:21).

"Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown" (Rev 3:11).
*********************************

Either way pre or post, we shall see him, but for me.....I am waiting with my lamp and oil, so I can see him the instant he calls.  [and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time]

Maranatha!

Amen,  we are of one mind on this matter.

Although it is important to "watch and wait", the rature has become a distraction for the church, today in my opinion.

As it takes away from the task at hand, the church has been given, Christians have been ordained ;

"Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."


Somehow I can't help but seeing obedience to the command of evangelization as having the primacyl, instead of watching and waiting.

The verses you have put forth are all familiar to me.

But the doctrine which is taught that doesn't quite fit, is that of the marriage supper of the lamb, taking place being the purpose for the rapture.

This cannot be, since it is clear to me the church is the bride of christ, and those who are yet to be saved, are all who belong to the church, and perfection can only come when the union between the entire body and its head come together, presently he sits at the right hand of the majesty until his enemies be made his footstool.  

The key verses which must be reconciled with all others are  these ones;

Heb 11
32  And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33  Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
34  Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35  Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36  And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37  They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38  (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

The us in this verse is not limited to those of us who post in the forum, but those who believe on the preached word to the last days. Note verse 20;

"them also which shall believe on me through their word"[/b];


Jhn17
15  I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16  They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17  Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18  As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19  And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20  Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21  That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22  And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23  I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24  Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

These are the Bridegrooms own words, if anyone knows He does.  I don't put much stock in commentaries, or others opinions, when I have His own Words to guide me.

I am afraid the teaching of the rapture has become something foreign to the will of God the Father and God the Son.

The wedding feast cannot take place until the last son of God is adopted into the family of God, only then can the bride and groom be married.

Are there any other reasons, for the rapture taking place pre, or post tribulation, besides escaping the wrath??

In Revelation 14, it is clear only those who worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Believers are promised to kept from the hour of wrath.

Blessing,

Petro

Amen!   We should live like he is coming today, and work as though he were coming 1000 years from now.   I believe the references to sleeping in some of the prior verses apply to this also.   We cannot fall asleep in the comfort of this hope.  We must carry on with the work he has left for us to do.  Each of us in our known circles, could be the only Christian standing between a lost soul and a possible eternity without God.  May God never let us forget this!



Thanks brother, I stand corrected!  I also see in revelation 19:7 where the wedding of the bride and groom takes place later.   Admittedly, I have not done a complete study of these points, but discussions such as these fill me with vigor to make time for it.


Verses well worth studying under the light of this topic.


Again, I can agree here.  There is no question that some put more weight on this part of Gods truth than others.   However, we must balance Gods truth in our lives and seek his will for us, carrying his promises to those who have not heard it.  No question, his return should be in our hearts and minds all the time, but comfort in this should also help us realize those who need his mercy and saving grace are still yet to be harvested.


If nothing else but to behold him, and be with him, that would be enough!


Whether or not this means rapture, or protection, I believe and trust the promise of his word.

Great discussion Petro.   Being able to talk about the Lords  mysteries with others who know him is not only exciting and a blessing, but its down right fun!   Moreso, I believe we build each other up when we can compare what God is sharing with out hearts through his word.

1Thes 5:10-11
10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.
11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.
(NIV)

Blessings to you also Petro!

      I use current events and prophecy to evanglise, Israel and the middle east conflict is a great way to start. I start with Jerusalem. I explain that the city of Jerusalem is the stumbling block to peace in the middle east. The Israeli Jews Believe that God gave them Israel and Jerusalem as the "promised Land". The Jews will never give up Jerusalem, and plan to rebuild the Temple on the Temple Mount, now occupied by the Palestinian Muslims and their Dome of the Rock Mosque, which they believe "Allah" gave to them

     This is where true peace talks must begin. The current approach of the U.S. led road map to peace will fail because it fails to address the real problem, who is God, and who did He give Jerusalem to?

     The current road map to peace has steps leading to peace. The first step is stop the terrorist attacks. Once this is done (don't hold your breath) the next step involves dismantling the settlements. Jerusalem is "off the table" as far as final negociations until the last phase of the road map.

     The U.S. is saying, "Lets take it on step at a time, we'll talk about Jerusalem after we have completed the steps we have determined must take place before any final solution of Jerusalem will be debated."

     First terror must end, then the settlement issues of what stays in Israeli control and what is surrendered to the Palestinian state they seek to create. The problem is the Palestinians want Jerusalem to be the Capital of a Palestinian state and the Jews will never agree to that (until Antichrist comes and offers a treaty in which the Jews are allowed to rebuild their temple and SHARE the Temple mount with the Palestinians.)  I lure people into "political discussions" and can instantly turn the conversation into a "religious discussion" using the middle east and the Jews and Muslims. Then I can instantly throw the Christian Biblical prophecy perspective into the equation. Middle east politics and religion are inseperable, so why try, spell it out like it is.

Most people understand Jews believe God (Jehovah) gave them the land, and that Muslims believe god (Allah) gave the land to them. I add in what the Bible has to say on the issues.

      And when I'm done shattering their hopes and dreams of this present world, I give them hope and reveal to them that before all the doom and gloom to come, Christ Raptures the Church. This can be very motivational once people can see that their little world maybe vanishing before their eyes as they watch Fox news every night. Ignorance is bliss, it has been said. I like to take away peoples ignorance and make them focus on the big picture. Most people have no idea the Bible contains detailed prophecies which are already to be fulfilled now. The rapture removes the fear of believing the world as we know it will soon come under judgment and wrath.

     Try telling someone, "Hey let me tell you about Jesus, you have to believe in him so when the Antichrist comes and tries to give you the mark, you can get your head loped off and go to Heaven, sound good?" They will say,"why would I want to believe in someone who wants me to have my head loped off?"

     Try telling someone, "Hey let me tell you about Jesus, you have to believe in him so he can save you from His wrath, Rapture you to be with him and avoid the wrath against those who refuse to accept Him as God." Sounds alot better to me and best of all its truth.

     (amazing grace music playing) "Shall I be lofted to the sky, on flowery beds of ease, while others strive to win the prize and sail on bloody seas!"    Amazing Grace written by John Newton, former slave ship captain!

Nice Post Paul2

There is no question, that prophecy can be a powerful tool for wittnessing.   When you can show someone that events taking place today, were foretold thousands of years ago in the bible, this opens the door to the possibility that maybe the rest of Gods word is true to them.

Although I would never deny what the bible teaches about hell, I am not a big propnent of hell fire and brimstone wittnessing.   BTW, I'm not saying this is your tactic either....just to be clear. :)   People are blind to Gods truth, and need to hear it.   God speaks to each mans heart in a different way.   A lot of people are in tune with prophetic events, which opens the door to sharing Gods love with them.   So I don't think its wrong to approach it this way.   Whatever the approach, however we can get them to listen with their heart, we must find a way to plant the seed of truth.   The truth that they are in need of a saving God, who loves them and is merciful, and the price he paid to rescue us.

The seed needs more than planting many times.  Others will cultivate it, and water it, tilling the ground it was sown on.  I know you are aware of all this, so I am just rambling on.....lol

I do enjoy hearing what you have to say about Revelation and endtime events.   I like you believe in the rapture of the church before the trib, but I am open to allowing God to show me his translation, whichever way it may be.   I hope to begin my own research on this topic soon, and  I am praying that God will lead me to a deeper understanding of him.

I pray God will continue to bless you as you labor for him in sharing Gods word with others.

Grace and Peace!

2d Tim,

I culled out most of your post, because I wanted to ask you a question and make a comment.

I will make my comment first, this centers around the "Emminency Doctrine"

I hadn't heard the word for some time, and since I have a tendency to forget things, I thought I would re acquaint myself with the teaching before bringin this up.

I believe in a rapture and  I consider myself Pre Mill, and see problems with the both pre and mid trib rapture postions, but I suspect it is my misunderstanding of certain end times scriptures.

However, in considering these things, I would not subscribe to a position espoused by known heretics.

This doctrine known as the "Eminence of the Second coming of Christ" teachings, were started by Edward Irving sometime before the 1830's.

I am posting the website for your review;

http://mb-soft.com/believe/text/imminenc.htm

Is this what you mean by what you had referenced, or is there some new doctrine, by the same name?

Blessings,

Petro

Hey Petro,

I was not refering to Edward Irving.  He may or may not have been the one to coin the phrase, but there is no question using men's teaching outside of the bible for commentary or bible guides can be a dangerous thing.  In saying this, I believe in many cases this doctrine goes much farther back than 1800's, but I digress.  My view is that the bible is quite capable of defending itself, if one devotes enough time to weigh and balance all scripture therin, allowing God himself to guide us through prayer and understanding.

I myself was raised in a home that taught Jesus could return at any moment, which I'm sure has some bearing on my view of various scripture.   However, in searching for Gods truth on the matter, there remains numerous scripture to support the idea of an "imminant" return of Christ.  (Could happen at any moment doctrine).   First and foremost, the idea that we are told to be constantly watching for him.  Pre or post, people will watch for him, but it seems to bear more weight for pre trib views.  The saints who endure the trib will no doubt be watching for his return, but they will know when he is coming, when Jesus himself says that we would not know.

Another question is, if we are waiting for the Antichrist to make himself known, or the tribulation to happen, then we are putting limits on what God can or cannot do.   I for one will not do that, just as I would not say he isn't coming at the end of trib.  As of this point as I previously have said, I am watching for his return regardless.   I do lean towards a pre-trib only because there is abundant evidence in scripture that warns us to be alert for his return at any moment.  Only the father really knows when this will be.  

One thing is certain, he said he is coming back, and he told us to keep watch, lest he catch us by surprise.  In my view, we are brushing up against the very times Jesus spoke of in Matthew.  The signs he spoke of are all around us and are ever increasing in number and intensity.   He said when you see these things begin to come to pass, know that the time is short.   Of course, each generation throughout history has seen some of these signs, but not on the level we see them today or totality.  We are already starting see evidence of things that are foretold during tribulation (which was the idea of the original post).  There are many people in disagreement about how prophecy will unfold.  Just as it was about how the messiah would come the first time.  Gods plan is perfect, and only his way will be right whatever that may be.  We should never forget this and think we are wiser than he, and become bogged down with arguing about how he will do it.  Sure, we should study his word regarding his return, but also take comfort in the fact that he is the author, and knows the outcome to the letter.  For now we see through a glass, darkly; as Paul says.  Scripture is not always black and white, and I believe this is to keep us searching and seeking his endless truth.

So in closing, let me say....In no way do I wish to miss him for lack of watchfullness as he told us to do, or spiritual laziness by not carrying on the work he left for us.   My hand is on the plow, but my head is on a swivel.  All indicators say our redemption is drawing neigh.

Grace and Peace!

I believe the Word of God (THE BIBLE)

Pre-Trib

Brother Love :)

I should probably add that my view on pre trib is not soley based on just being watchful.   There is a lot of weight that can be added to this by other things mentioned in scripture.

1. Jacobs trouble, refering to the decendants of Jacob.  The argument here is that tribulation period appears to be aimed towards Israel not the church.  In Dan 9:24 An angel told Daniel that, "70 weeks are determined unto thy people" In Revelation only 144,000 from the 12 tribes are sealed by the angel.  What about the chruch? These 2 do not apear to be the same.   Revelation 13:7 says the Antichrist will make war with the saints and overcome them.  This also agrees with the fact the there is no mention of the church after chapter 3.  Attention appears to switch towards Israel during the trib.

2.  The parable of the 10 virgins.  There are 5 that are foolish.  Cleary this group is excluded from from where the festivities are occuring.  One could easily see how it would be possible to equate this to pre trib events rather than post trib.  By the way, traditional wedding feasts generally happen before the wedding ceramony.  (not this is scriptural evidence, just food for thought)

3.  1 Thessalonians 5:9 says we are not appointed to Gods wrath.  Some would argue that God will protect us during the tribulation (and possibly he will).   However, as stated in point 1, we are told in Revelation 13:6-7 that the Antichrist/beast is given power to overcome the saints.  He also blasphemes God along with those dwelling in heaven.   Who is dwelling in heaven here?  And how is God keeping the church from his wrath if he gives the beast power over the saints?  This is difficult to address in light of the blessed hope spoken of in Thessalonians.  A pre-trib view very easily addresses this.

4.  And of course the unknown hour, and keeping busy in the Lord.  This seems hard to equate with post trib activity for reasons I have stated earlier.


I can almost sense the tense gasket blowing rebutals going on in the minds of those who disagree with what what I have said above ;D   So let me again say, that I am not dogmatic in my pre trib stance, however, there does appear to be much weight given in Gods word that could imply a pre-trib rapture.   This is only a small portion too.   Much of the above is easy to address, if you view it through pre-trib rapture glasses, but hard to address through post trib rapture glasses.  

Just some food for thought  ;)

Grace and Peace!

2d Tim,

Amazingly, I agree with you on most all that you have posted.

The problem I have had with the "emminence teaching" is that unless it is simply defined as He is coming in accordance with His plan (which would be sufficient to make the point) this would not be such a difficult teaching to swallow.

But when the words added; "at any moment", imediately this raise flags for me, since those who adhere to the teaching point to its teaching to have been observed from the early church, and this is not supported in scripture, the emminence doctrine was not introduced into the church until the 19th century.

The problem with this teaching, is that before 1948, there was no Nation of Israel, yet His coming according to the prophetic words of the Prophet Ezekiel who prophecisied the re brith of the nation, together with Daniels prophecy especially of the 70 weeks (primarily directed at Jews) was to  precede the Lords return.

While the pre trib position has its problems, I lean toward it myself, but find that aligning myself with it, without working out these tanglings in the teaching which are clearly not supported by scripture, takes away from the task at hand.

Perhaps it would be good to start a thread to point out the inconsistencies, it might make for a good discussion.

I will do that, rather then get further off track herein.

Like you, I see, living ones life as though he can return at any moment, encourages a subjected life to the Spirit, but it also means we should continue to search the scriptures to reconcile the scriptures which do not seem to fit Biblical theology.

Blessings,

Petro

Petro,

Doing a little digging around on the net, I was able to find a few quotes on the immency doctrine which predates the 19 century.  Let me first say that in no way to I accept any of these as gospel, or Gods truth, but clearly men had the idea for some time.


Again, I find it hard to put faith in the writtings of man outside of Gods word, but there appears to be evidence the immency doctrine dates back many years ago.

Something else I find interesting in scripture, is Daniels version of the Lords Day in Dan 12:1-3 as opposed to the mystery (something not yet seen or heard of) refered to by the Apostle Paul in 1Co 15:51.   Surely believers had heard of Daniels prophecy concerning the Lords Day, yet Paul explains something new and different here.  Of course, we know that the chruch was not present for the first 69 weeks Daniel detailed.  Will it be present for the last week? (as in Jacobs trouble or Gods dealing with the Jews?)   These are very probing questions that deserve looking into.  OR at least for me they are...lol

Grace and Peace!

The imminent, personal return of the Lord Jesus Christ to catch up the members of His body to be with Him forever is the "blessed hope" of the believer (I Thes. 4:13-18; Titus 2:13). The body of Christ will not be on the earth during the time of Jacob's trouble, also known as the Tribulation (Rom 13:11; I Thes. 4:13-16, 5:1-11; II Thes. 2:1-17).


Grace & Peace

The new RFIC chips are just one more example of the grander trend towards global, bureaucratic--governmental, commercial, and religious--tyranny.  Bureaucracy, in those three broad categories generally, is replacing any "faith" in a Creator or God, with faith in itself(the "human spirit", as Hollywood likes to call it, or just plain humanism)--at the point of a gun or, more likely, just at the risk of being "left out".

That we are moving towards a totally watertight tracking system, would only make sense; it will only aid in screening out the undisrables--esp. right now, terrorists.

People generally, the world over, equate democracy, with civilization, and, seeing the material benefit thereof, like the Pied Piper of Hammlin, are being led to believe in that--a "god" of sorts.  To hold membership in that, it seems evident that it will be "either/or".  You either is, or you isn't.  Apparently, that is where the mark will come in.

I've imagined that the mark itself will be a type of tattoo, perhaps invisible, but readable electronically.

I'm guessing that even most church people will be clamoring for it, assuming that the trend in terrorism will be growing much mor violent, widespread, etc.   Most churches generally seem subjects of the state--or of commerce--OR, they all three at one time or another seem to pretty much be in bed with the other two.

   ::)

Ok hereis a something to ponder.....
The military usually pioneers (we are the guinea pigs) new technolgies like this. So logic would say that us Christians who are currently serving would be required to get this chip. Now I doubt this chip really would be the MARK but it still makes me uncomfortable. They already have my DNA, I probably have a clone somewhere in Nevada :) now the Goverment wants to know everything else about me?

They will know more than Santa Claus...lol

Any type of mark or implant on/in the hand or forehead that is required to make sales or purchases should be viewed with great caution.  Here is what is said about this mark.

Rev 13:16
16  He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead,
17  so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.
(NIV)

Everyone will be forced to take the mark, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave.  And it is a necessity to buy or sell.

Rev 14:9-10
9  A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand,
10  he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
(NIV)

Here we are told that those who received the mark worship the beast and his image, and that they will bring damnation on themselves by doing so.

I remember when I was very young, they came out with the bar code.   Everyone in church circles harralded this as the mark of the beast.  Who knows, perhaps that will be incorperated somehow.  Now we have the implant chip.  Clearly at this stage, it is not now the mark of the beast.  It is being spoke of as new technology that would be a convenience in monitary transations, identification, tracking of people good or bad.   Sounds pretty nice doesnt it?  However, if you ponder how the devil could make use of such a thing, Rev 13:16-17 should go off like a gong!

It becomes clear that the technology now exists for this prophetic passage of scripture to take place when the time comes.   The question is, how far off is that time?  A better question is, how soon will the Lord return?

Grace and Peace!

Yep Tim, the latest twist is the RFID--soon to replace the bar code(the first bar code use was in 1974).

The RFID concept is similar, but takes the bar code one step--and a giant step--farther.   And its a tiny chip, imbedded.

Bar codes id categories of products.  All of the same boxes of cereal, for instance, on a grocer shelf, like Post Raisin Bran, have the same bar code.

With RFID, however, even all the same boxes within a category, would each have its own id.  Actually, because of the mathematical possiblities in RFID, the range is virtually infinite.  Every product manufactured by man, will have its own, unique ID--where you bought it, when you bought it, etc.

This website talks a little about it:  http://www.nocards.org/AutoID/overview.shtml

Wal-Mart, I believe, has begun requiring them from some of their suppliers.


Yep, Coyote, I think one of the central-most themes of the whole Bible is this question of "id".  Ezekiel records more than 55 variations of the declaration, "...then they shall know, that I am the Lord..."

God is very concerned about Who He Is, (I AM THAT I AM); and who likewise His people are("...ye are a chose people, a royal priesthood...").

Thus a world id system of any kind naturally would come in direct conflict with that.

The same conflict Pilate immediately deflected, but admitted to, when he refused the Pharisee's request that he change the sign over our crucified Jesus from "King of the Jews", to "He said he was, 'King of the Jews'"(the Pharisees had earlier admitted their own guilt, when they declared, "We have no king but Caesar").  

"What I have written, I have written", I believe was Pilate's reply, to the Pharisee's request.

Where I work this is already in use.   Everything, even the employees have a bar code.  I have to swipe a badge which has a bar code showing my ID and SS# which clocks me in and tracks my work hours, as well as movement throughout the building.  Any doors that I open are done by the data card using RFID on my badge that holds my level of security clearance.  All product in the warehouse has a barcode that when picked up from its location, is scanned by the forklift driver, (system knows which driver has it) and when its dropped off at its new location is scanned again by the driver.  Any product that travels on conveyer belts is also scanned.  Any product that tries to sneak its way out the door in someones pockets sets off an alarm.  

You would think from hearing all this that I work for Lockheed or some super secret government agency.  In reality, I work for Blockbuster Inc. at the corporate distribution center.

The millisecond they require personal ID's to be moved from a clip on card to implant of any kind, I will be looking searching for a new job.

This technology is sneaking up on us ever so quietly.  I wonder how companies and government will react when christian employee's nationwide, refuse to follow suit and get an implant or mark?  Job termination will no doubt be the first remedy, (not able to buy or sell)....followed by persecution eventually, based on the reason for our refusal to comply...Faith in Jesus Christ, and his holy word.

Maranatha!

Grace and Peace!

guns in my opionion are the mark of the beast for you either except a gun in your right hand or chances are you will get a bullet in your head also guns are used to kill which breaks the 7th commandment there is a certain indivisual who was idolized through poster with a golden gun around his neck and he spoke words of blasphame and lies and slandered the name of god in all his songs and the second beast is promoting his intrest through a movie and calling it his reseriction if any have found this out besides me then please respond

 May god bless all those who see this message and take it to heart

chris,

Welcome to this forum.

Thanks for your first post.

Actually the word Kill, in the sixth commandment (Ex 20:13), refers to murder, not just kill in anyway.

This is made clear by Jesus, who spoke of it, and sheds lite on this very thing, when quoting the commandments himself.

You can see it clearer at'

Mat 19:18, Mk 15:7, Lk 23:19, and the aposlte Paul writes at;

 Rom 1
28  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29  Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30  Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31  Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32  Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


Blessings to you,
Petro

8) First of I would like to start by saying that if you are a true Christian then you will not have to worry about the Mark Of the Beast of and thing's to come in the tribulation time's. There are no sign's given to mark the coming of the rapture of the church (the coming of Christ). The sign's that are in the Bible are the sign's of  the tribulation period. But thinks are visible however to the fact that the Mark of the best is comen.The mark of the beast is something that divides the church in many ways. Some say it's a computer chip in the hand, others say that it's a secret credit card code. I believe that the best way to discern the meaning of 666 is to examine the scripture verse-by-verse
Let's look at this most famous passage:
Revelations 13: 16-18
"And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads; And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."
A lot of teacher's that teach about the mark of the beast all agree that the best is the one world goverment.Which most further agree that the one world government is represented By the UN. If the beast is the United Nations and this "mark" is a count or vote of the beast then we should be looking at UN Resolution 666. This is the voice vote of the UN.the Resolution 666 was adopted on September 13, 1990, and concerns IRAQ. Decides that all states shall prevent
1>The import into their territories of all commodities and products originating in Iraq or Kuwait exported therefrom after the date of the present resolution
2>Any activities by their nationals or in their territories which would promote or are calculated to promote the export or transshipment of any commodities or products from Iraq or Kuwait; and any dealings by their nationals or their flag vessels or in their territories in any commodities or products originating in Iraq or Kuwait and exported therefrom after the date of the present resolution, including in particular any transfer of funds to Iraq or Kuwait for the purposes of such activities or dealings
3>The sale or supply by their nationals or from their territories or using their flag vessels of any commodities or products, including weapons or any other military equipment, whether or not originating in their territories but not including supplies intended strictly for medical purposes, and, in humanitarian circumstances, foodstuffs, to any person or body for the purposes of any business carried on in or operated from Iraq or Kuwait, and any activities by their nationals or in their territories which promote or are calculated to promote such sale or supply of such commodities or products. Most in the church assume, ASSUME, that all prophecies are dealing with worldwide events. They forget that SATAN is the subtlest beast of the field. His way is not via bold, highly visible changes. But subtle, slow moving changes. The mechanisms set in place with resolution 666 made it possible for the UN to take part in financial and regulatory affairs of member states in a more engaging manner. Now, when an American Pop Star has a dispute with regard to their website or other matters, they don't take the matter to a US Court of law under US Constitutional rules, they take the matter to the UN Court of law.
How strange is the embargo against IRAQ. Consider the embargo against CUBA. The UN does not actively control the sale or purchase of goods sold to CUBA. Yet, they do with IRAQ under resolution 666.
How ever I have heard of a chip that goes into the hand to show identification, But like you said this could be a prototype put out to test the mechanic's of this product, it would be a big laugh for them to send a world domination devise out into the world and it fail.

UN resolution 666 could very well be a part of the whole scheme.  But scripture is clear that "he causes ALL to receive a mark", (speaking of individuals) great and small, rich and poor.   No one could buy or sell unless they had THE mark, which is on the hand of forehead.

The greek word for mark is charagma meaning scratch, etching, stamp...its also the same as charax meaning "sharpen to a point, or "stake"  Not hard to imagine an implant at all given this definition.

However the UN resolution behind a law forcing an implant is interesting.  Thanks for the info Justanotherfollowe

Grace and Peace!

No problem 2nd timothy, another interesting fact about the mark is in a way in all of, us all living things, are carbon based and the chart on carbon atom is made of 6 protons, 6 neutrons, and 6 electrons. So if you think about it the reason that we sin is that we carry the mark 666' around in our body's, or could be God trying to comunicate to latter generation's the mark of the beast. 8) ;D

It's sad that Im so behind on the date of this post, but surely I say to you Paul2 that with all respect you're not clear as to the 1260 days of Revelation 12, the mark of the beast, and the falsely called "rapture". I would like to rekindle this topic if any replies are made.  

Good day to all of you,
Lpaisan

Um, the number is six hundred and sixty six,  not six and six and another six.  It only happens to look like 3 sixes written in our numbering system.

I'm laying this statement out half way because I am very tired but during the week end I'll post the whole details of the Mark of The Beast which has been taken in a very wrong way. No offense. Before one come to any conclusion, one must identify the principles of prophecy interpretation, which are not of private knowledge. The Bible answer itself when use wisely and for the solid purpose of salvation. As I said this is way off into the topic so if you don’t understand something ask me but do not draw conclusions because I have not posted the whole matter. First I’ll say that there is not such thing as a computer chip to be implanted in humans for the purpose of fulfilling Revelation 13 or anything like that. The points of identification in question are from Daniel 7 and Revelation 13. One can not study Daniel without Revelation and vice versa. In Daniel 7 its mentioned the little horn power who would arise in Western Europe after the ten divisions of the Roman Empire( for those who have venture in named some random countries and such, here are the actual name of the ten divisions in which the Roman Empire was divided in 476 A.D. which are the 10 horn of Revelation and Daniel(the feet of the statue seen by Nebuchadnezzar in the dream Daniel 2:41,42) this would be the condition of Europe after the breakup of the Roman Empire: As prophesied, it was not taken over by another world kingdom. Instead, as the Bible so clearly foretold, barbarian tribes conquered the Roman Empire and divided it. Ten of these tribes eventually became modern Europe. They were: The Ostrogoths, the Visigoths, Franks, Vandals, Suevi, Alemanni, Anglo-Saxon, Heruli, Lombards, and Burgundians. Seven of them still exist today in Europe. For example, the Anglo-Saxon became the English, the Franks became the French, and the Lombards became the Italians. Daniel 7 will tell the fascinating story of the power that destroyed three of these then divisions. ) 1-.It would mix paganism with Christianity. 2.- It would command people to worship it (therefore it would be a religious power). 3.- It would persecute those who disagreed with it. 4.- It would blaspheme the God of Heaven. 5.- It would reign for 1260 years. 6.- It would receive a deadly wound, recover from it, and have all the world worship it once again. 7.- Its boldest claim would be that it had change the times and the law. We can take these marks of identification, go to any encyclopedia or history book, examine the history of the Dark Ages when  the Bible said this power would arise, and we would discover that there is only one power that meets every one of these identifying marks. That power is the papacy. Please remember that I’m talking about a system that has arisen in opposition to God. There are many good, sincere people in the papacy who love and serve Jesus. God loves them, and in mercy He has sent them this warning so that they might not be deceived by this power. Let’s re-examine the identifying marks of Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 and see how clearly the papacy has met every one of these marks of identification.

DANIEL MARKS OF IDENTIFICATION
A-. It arouse among the ten divisions.
      As the Roman Empire divided into ten divisions, another power emerged as the unifying power among all the ten divisions of the Roman Empire. That power was the papacy. No other such power arose among the ten divisions of the Roman Empire at that time.


B-. It plucks up three horns
      As the Papal power emerged among the ten divisions of the Roman Empire, there   were three powers that refused to submit to the bishop of Rome. They were the Heruli, The Vandals, and The Ostrogoths. To achieve full unity, the papacy encouraged armies to destroy these three powers. Indeed three horns were plucked up. The last of those powers was destroyed in A.D. 538.
C.- Eyes like the eyes of a man
      At the head of the papacy sits a man, making the decisions that affect the lives and souls of thousands of people.
D.- It had a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies
      He committed blasphemy. According to Scripture, blasphemy consist of three things:
        1.- Daniel 5 indicated that it is blasphemy to mix together paganism and Christianity. As pagans came flooding into the church in those early centuries, the papacy changed the pure doctrines of early Christianity. It tried to make it easier for the pagans to adjust to Christianity by incorporating pagan practices into the Christian faith. For example, the pagans were use to worshipping gods and goddesses, whereas Christians worshipped only one God. Therefore, the church introduced the practice of praying to the saints. This took the place of the household gods of paganism, making it easier for these unconverted pagans who had entered the church to adjust to Christianity. In addition, Christianity had no female deity, so the papacy elevated Mary to take place of Jesus Christ as the only mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5). There were many other pagans practices that Rome Christianized during this period. “We are told in various ways by Eusebius, that Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own. It is not necessary to go into subject which the diligence of Protestant writers has made familiar to most of us. The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees, incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness, holy water; asylums, holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleisen, are all of pagan origin ,and sanctified by their adoption into the Church” John Henry Cardinal Newman, An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, Longmans, Green & Company, London, 1920 P.373

2.-  Blasphemy is for a man to claim that he can forgive sins. Mark 2:7. Notice the claim of the papacy to be able to forgive men of their sins:
       A.- “And God himself is obliged to abide by the judgment of his priest and either not to pardon or to pardon, according as they refuse to give absolution, provided the penitent is capable of it” Duties and Dignities of the Priest by Liguori, p.27
       B.- “Were the Redeemer to descend into a church, and sit in a confessional to administer the sacrament of penance, and a priest to sit in a confessional, Jesus would say over each penitent: ‘Ego te absolvo’. The priest would likewise say over each of his penitents, ‘Ego te absolvo’, and the penitents of each would be equally absolved”. Ibid p.34
       C.- “The priest holds the place of the Saviour himself, when by saying ‘Ego te absorvo’, he absolves from sin.” Ibid

3.- Blasphemy is to claim the prerogative of God (John 10:33)
        a.- “Hence priests are called the parents of Jesus Christ:such is the title that St. Bernard gives them, for they are the active cause by which he is made to exist really in the consecrated Host”. Ibid p. 32
        b.- “Thus the priest may, in a certain manner be called the creator of his Creator, since by saying the words of consecration, he creates as it were, Jesus in the sacrament.”Ibid.
        c.- “All names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that he is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope”. On the Authority of Councils, 1619 ed, book 2 ch. 17
        d.- “We hold upon this earth the place of God almighty”. The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo, XIII, p. 304
        e.- “Thou art the shepherd, thou art the physician, thou art the director, thou art the husbandman; finally, thou art another god on earth” Christopher Marcellus Oration in the Fifth Lateran Council, Session IV (1512) in Mansi SC, Vol. 32, Col. 761(Latin)

As you can see when one examines the Roman Catholic quotations cited, there can be no question that the papacy has spoken great words against the Most High, blasphemed God, and combined paganism with Christianity.
     
E.- Makes war with the saints
      More people were killed by the papacy during the Dark Ages than by Hitler in World War II:
          “That the Church of Rome has shed more innocent blood than any other institution that has ever existed among mankind, will be questioned by no Protestant who has a competent knowledge of history”. History of the Rise and Influence of Rationalism in Europe. Vo. 2 p. 32, W.E. H. Lecky, author.

F.- Think to change the times and the law. I’ll explain this one later on.

G.- To reign for 1260 years
       The Papacy had established its power in A.D. 538 when the last of the three powers was subdued. The decree of Justinian making the popes head of the church and corrector of heretics, issued in A.D. 533, took effect in 538, when no power stood in the way of the Pope having full supremacy. Exactly 1260 years later, in 1798, Berthier, the French general under Napoleon invaded the Vatican and took the pope prisoner ending the temporal sovereignty of the Pope. His long reign lasted exactly 1260 years.


IDENTIFICATION MARKS FROM REVELATION
A.- It received its power, seat and great authority from the Dragon
       The dragon primarily represents Satan (Revelation 12:9). However, the devil works through various agencies, in this case, pagan Rome. The Roman emperors moved the capital of the Roman Empire from Rome to Constantinople, thereby leaving the Pope the chief power in the West. They put the power of the Caesars behind in Christianity. Truly Pagan Rome gave the Papacy his power, seat, and great authority.

B.- It received a deadly wound
      When Berthier, the French general, took the Pope prisoner in 1798, he inflicted the deadly wound. Many thought the Papacy had come to its end and could never recover. Indeed it had received a deadly wound.

C.- The deadly wound was healed
       In 1929 Mussolini once again restored the Vatican to the Pope, making him again a secular as well as a religious ruler. Today the Vatican is recognized by many governments on earth. Even the United States of America sends an ambassador to the Vatican, recognizing the Vatican State as secular as well as religious state. As one observes the developing Papacy today, one sees indeed the whole world wondering after this power.

D.- People worshipped this power
      One only has to watch the acts of the obeisance that people pay to the head of the papacy to know that this power is an object of reverence and worship. During his 1260 year reign, few earthly governments dared defy this power. He held the keys to life and death for thousands of individuals.

E.- It spoke great words and blasphemy
F.- It was to reign for 42 months (Same as 1260 years or days )
G.- It made war with the saints
H.- All the world worships it today
 Please for the fulfillment of the above four marks of identification, see points D, E and G under Daniel 7.

I.-  And of course it has a number that adds up to 666
      Notice that Revelation 13:18 does not say the number 666 is written out. Rather it says that to discover the number of the beast, one must count the number of the beast, or add it up. An ancient custom was to use the Roman numeral system on people’s names, adding up the various totals of the letters. That would then be the person’s number. The Bible says the beast has a number, and the numbers add up to 666. One of the official titles of the head of the Roman Church in Latin is VICARIVS FILII DEI, meaning “Vicar of the Son of God”. Please notice below that the numerical value of the letters of his name add up to the Biblical 666:
V-   5     F- 0       D-500
I-    1   I-  1        E-  0
C-100  L-50        I-  1
A-   0    I-  1    --------               112
R-   0    I-  1          501                 53
I-   1    -----                              501
V-   5       53                             -----
S-   0                                         666
------
   112
                                           
   So the Papacy fits the sixth point. As we can see this is the actual 666 is has nothing to do with computer chips or credit cards. The actual fact the it says that some will have the mark in their foreheads or in their hands is simply that they will consciously accept this power decree of false day of worship this will symbolically will receive the mark in their forehead because with your mind you make decisions. Those who will receive it in their hands means that they will not accept what the power is saying but they'll not performed any work on that day establish as the mark of the beast which is Sunday worship. Be advice that the mark has not been established yet. NO ONE HAS THE MARK EVEN THOUGH THEY WORSHIP ON SUNDAY. (SUN DAY DAY OF THE GOD SUN, ESTABLISH BY EGYPTIAN BROUGHT INTO CHRISTIANIRY BY CONSTANTINVE MARCH 7 327 AD.)

Lpaisan

lpaisan,

I will only use a small quote from you here...


There is nothing, whatsoever, in scripture that describes what you have said here.  This is not conspiricists of the world unite.

This is what scripture says...

Rev 13:16  And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

These two verses mean exactly what they say!

1. HE will cause both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond to receive a mark in their right hand of forehead.

2. No man without this mark can buy or sell.

Plain and simple!   The only way that anyone can say these two things said here by John is speaking about sabbath worship is totally allegorizing scripture and is completely out of left field.   There is nothing in the text to indicate papal conspiracy or sabbath worship at all.   It is very plain and simple to understand the 2 points.   Its a mark.....he causes everyone to receive it in their hand or forehead, and without it, you cannot buy or sell!


The principles of interpreting scripture is first to read what it says, and 2 believe it.  Salvation comes through Grace by faith alone.  Nothing more!  We can't earn it, we can't buy it,  we don't obtain it by observing the sabbath.  Its a free Gift from God.   Without accepting this gift freely by faith, there is no salvation and there is no hope of understanding the truth of his word.   Until you start here, there is not even any point in going to Revelations or Daniel.

Grace and Peace!

2ndT - AMEN!
It is such a tragedy that men will take 20 clearly written words from scripture and expand it to 1,000 words of their choosing to support their own twisted conclusions.  
“Jesus Wept”.
I’ve seen TOMES written on that two word verse, but the two words stand alone and nothing can add to or take away from the meaning.

God bless,

2nd Timothy, I'm not going to even try make you reason. It is very clear that you have no idea how to study prophecies. For you information, I think you should know that history is a blessing from God to us that we may know exactly in what page of world events we are. I didn't post this for you or your companion here, JudgeNot, but rather for those who are wise and slow to judge. "Judge not, but if you must, do it righteously...." That what the Lord Jesus Christ said. You have not read the beginning of my replies. I said this is half way through the subject. You just don't take Revelation 13:18 and say "I got it!" you must trace things so that you know who is who and what happened, so that weak interpretation and off line conclusion wont be drawn.

Lpaisan

Lpaisan,

My reasoning is founded in a litteral interpretation of scripture.  I have no reason to reason with man.  Revelation 13:18 says what it says, just like many other verses you refuse to read plainly.   I am sorry this verse does not agree with your doctrine, but apparrently God has his own agenda.  I for one accept his word at face value and believe it.  You have not offered any scripture to explain why buying and selling mentioned in this verse means anything else, or why it would.  Instead, you lanch into a lengthy post that is not even your own words which appear to come from a copy and paste technique you are using to post documents from your favorite web sites.   Identical article found here, (http://www.tagnet.org/anotherviewpoint/Daniel/09ex.htm) with a sprinkle of personal thoughts here and there.   Hopefully this is not "your idea of how to study prophecy".  Show us YOUR work and explain why John describes the mark being required for everyone so that they can buy or sell.  Then prehaps we can get somewhere.  I originally started this post so that others could discuss (including Jabez!) this topic, and I welcome your replies as well.   A Bible is all thats required, and the holy spirit is your best guide.   Gods word is truth, and all of us can gain from reading and comparing our own understanding of it.   All I ask for is discussion based on Gods truth, not someone elses theory about what a verse is trying to say.  What does it say to YOU?

Grace and Peace!

edit to clarify, Including JudgeNot.  Sorry JN, I got the user wrong above refering to Jabez...sorry.

Thanks Tim....  the site is telling....

Oklahoma Howdy to lpaisan,

You've got me confused here. Are you studying prophesy, or are you cutting and pasting canned material from a 7th Day Adventist Site? Whose interpretation and conclusions are we talking about here, and where is the copyright information?

I think that quite a few folks here have opinions based on many years of their own study of the Holy Bible. It's a novel approach, but personal Bible study yields interpretations and conclusions that don't resemble the article you posted. Some independent study on your part might help you with the truth. I say this in Christian love. There is peace and joy resting in Christ 24/7/365, and the ceremonial Jewish Sabbath is just as gone as burnt offerings. Why would any Christian wish to rest in Christ only 1 day a week instead of 7, and why would any Christian wish to be under the bondage of the law instead of the Grace of God?

The shadows of many things to come were replaced by REALITY AT THE CROSS. Let me ask you one question to see if you have a clue what I'm talking about. Do you know the location of a temple filled with the HOLY SPIRIT?

Love In Christ,
Tom

  I now belive that I was incorrect in mentioning Guns being the mark of the beast
   In fact the Mark is (in my opinion) $$$

       and the Beast in my opinion is G-unit
           50 Cent Lloyd BANKS young BUCK
         
         "all men great and small to accept a mark in your right hand or in your forhead"
                               "Can't buy or sell unless he has this mark"
         All names having to do with currency
          Gods mark is most likely Baptizim which Sanctifies the soul

         GOD BLESS ALWAYS

    New evidence that Kanye west ( who is a member of the Roc-a-fella team givin power by Jay Z) also has alot to do with this In his video Through the wire  he walks past a moral on a wall that says GODS SOILDERS with the names of those who died for the Lord And West spits on the ground directly in front of it and at the end of the video he stands in front of a poster that Says Chaka on it and through computer tech. the words thank you appear at the bottom of the screen (worshiping false Gods) and the links on his site lead to G-unit n' 50 Cent
           
               If u wanna check this out yourself The site is Kayneworld.com

          GOD bless all of you who see this as well

News Security  
 

Iris scanning to begin at German airport
 
By Dinesh C. Sharma
CNET News.com
February 13, 2004, 11:05 AM PT
 
 
A test of an iris-scanning system is set to begin Saturday at the Frankfurt, Germany, airport, as part of a project involving 18 European countries.
Airline passengers will be required to stand in front of an identification device whose cameras will automatically capture images of their iris patterns, companies participating in the trial said Friday. The iris systems--seven of which have been installed at the airport--will then identify the passenger's iris and match that information with the passport data captured by a scanner. If successful, the iris system could replace conventional systems for checking identity at airport immigration counters.

Initially, residents of European Union countries and Switzerland who fly frequently....


 http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1105_2-5158973.html