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Response on the thread "Rapture season 2006/2007 facts & evidence" can be placed here.

Your site branches out into some interesting stuff do you agree with the branches?

29th march 2006  :)

Brother Love :)

If there is such a thing as "the gosple according to twobombs" then this should be 'it'.

Did I see the word Gnosticism in that post? No? Oh, look, here is it again: Gnosticism. ::)

Why Should Christians Be Date Setters?

http://whatsaiththescripture.com/Timeline/Why.Should.Chirst.Date.html

Oh look! It is a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's Gnosticism! :P

That would be great, if the "Rapture" was biblical FACT, not a Theory.

Matthew 24:36-51

Yeah, very good group of verses, but it only work to prove the rapture is real if you assume the Rapture and Second Coming are different events. And if you assune the one "taken" is the Christian. Who isn't to say the one take is the unbeliever? Notice the parable at the end of this verse. The one taken away is the wicked servant, not the good ones.

Tibby: I'm going to argue about a measly 7 years, mkay ?

But not believing in the Rapture at/close to the 2nd Coming is definately "a bad thing" (tm)

Not believing that any heathen nation will live in the Millenium is "a very  bad thing" (tm)

Just as not believing in the 2nd Coming or Millienium; that is definately "a very, very bad thing" (tm)

I dont see that the wicked one will be taken?What verse?I beleive the Rapture and second coming are differents events.One thing for sure you dont want to be here for tribulation.

Read the parable that is in the verse you said to look up. The last hunk of these verse is a parable. It talks about a two servants. He says you want to the good servant who takes care of his Masters things while his master is away (verse 46). In Verse 48, he tells a story of a servant who is wicked and treats his master property of his fellow servants poorly. The bible says the Master will return when we least expect it, and cut him to pieces, and throw him in with the hypocrites, “where there will weeping and gnashing of teeth.” I just don’t see how this would relate to the rapture, if the good servant stays in the house.

I’d hate to be a part of laHey-style Tribulation, too. Glad I'm saved ;D I don’t think Jesus will hold a grudge, I rumor has it Paul was into amillennialism. lol j/k

     Matthew wrote about the "Second Coming" of Christ to establish His Kingdom. Christ sends Angels to gather those who took the mark of the beast to destruction. Matthew was not writing about the Rapture.

     Paul revealed the Rapture to us, and told us that Jesus Himself would shout and call us to meet Him on the clouds, there were no Angels doing the gathering, according to Paul.

     The Jews missed the fact that Jesus Christ was to come twice, first as the Lamb, then as the Loin. They expected the Lion and missed the Lamb.

      Many in the Church have missed the fact that Jesus will return to the clouds above earth as the Bridegroom, to call His Bride, the Church to join Him on the clouds. Then after the Church has been in Heaven during the Great Tribulation and Daniel's 70th week, Jesus will return to the earth, to the mount of Olives, and fulfill all that Matthew wrote.

     Each Gospel has a underlying theme, and target audience, it takes 4 Gospels to reveal 4 different aspects of Christ. The Book of Revelation is really the 5th Gospel Given by Jesus Himself! The true title of the book says it all, The Revelation of Jesus Christ! Now back to the Gospels...

     Matthews Gospel was written portraying Jesus as Messiah and King of the Jews. Its purpose was to show the Jews that Jesus was their Messiah, and rightfull King. Written by a Jew, about a Jew, to the Jews. The prophecies are based around Israel, her Messiah and King. Matthew records the Second Coming, not the Rapture.

   Matthew- Lion- King

     Mark was written to the Romans, it was action packed, without all the parables. it portrayed Jesus as a servant.

    Mark- Calf- Servant

     Luke was written to the Greeks, very deep and filled with thought provoking parables. Luke portrays Jesus as a man, the humanity of Christ.

    Luke- face of a Man- Humanity

     John was written for believers, our personal Gospel with messages for us. John's Gospel portrays Jesus as God!, the Deity of Christ

     John- Eagle- Deity

     I'll bet your wondering why I used Lion, Calf, face of a Man, and Eagle. I'll show you...

Revelation 4: 7 "And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle."

      These are the 4 living creatures around God's throne, which just happen to appear in the exact order as the themes to all 4 Gospels. The same four aspects of Christ portrayed in the Gospels are portrayed in the four living creatures.

     And the first beast was like a Lion (Matthew- King), and the second beast like a Calf (Mark- Servant), and the third beast had the face of a Man (Luke- Human, Son of Man), and the fourth beast was like a flying Eagle (John- Deity).

    Matthew's Gospel presents Jesus as King of the Jews, The Jews are not Raptured, but endure the Great Tribulation and Daniel's 70th week, and that is what Matthew has written about.

                                      The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2 8)

I’m not a pretrib-er, but interesting theory on the 5 gospels. I'll no doubt study more.

First of all your entire discourse is based upon two premises both of which are not proven and theologically in error.

Premise one:  The Holy Ghost is the restrainer, and leaves the planet
My comments:
The restrainer is NOT THE HOLY GHOST. How can the Holy Ghost LEAVE THE PLANET? WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED? As in your Trib Saints theory? The restrainer is Michael who is in battle with the spiritual princes of darkness, Persia, Greece, Rome, etc.  The book of Daniel is the key, once unlocked all is understood.

Premise two: Tribulation and Wrath are the same, so, church leaves during great tribulation.
I quote from the web site: "This time also signifies the time from the catching away of the faithful, and the 2nd Coming.  The seven-year Great Tribulation will commence the day after the feast of Trumpets when the Bride has been taken away "to be with the Lord" (your emphasis)

Theologically, this pre-trib rapture is false teaching.  Neither Tribulation nor Great Tribulation is WRATH. "He that endures to the end SHALL BE SAVED
Matt 10:22
Matt 24:13
Mark 13:13  

And see Matthew 24:29b
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
This issue is cleared up in brilliant detail, Marv Rosenthal ( a messianic Jew) in his book "Pre-Wrath Rapture".  A fantastic discourse on this subject, as he has a magnifiicent understanding of the Jewish calendar and the Hebrew text.

wrath - Hebrew: 3709. orge; punishment:--anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.

tribulation - Hebrew: 2347. thlipsis, thlip'-sis; from G2346; pressure (lit. or fig.):--afflicted, (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

great - Hebrew: 3173. megas, exceedingly, great (-est), high, large, loud, mighty, + (be) sore (afraid), strong, X to year

Read the explanation Jesus gives of Parable of the Wheat and the Tares in Matt 13:37-50 particularly vs 39 and vs 49, 50:

39  The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

49  So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50  And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Romans 5:9 "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

If  you carefully read the Revelation of John and the 7 seals, you can see where the tribulation ends and the wrath begins.

Some of your discourse is pretty interesting, but I disagree with most of it, especially the Babylon theory, NEW YORK (??)

Again, the Bible interprets itself, the four kingdoms and their associated animal icons have not changed, the significance of Iraq is lost in this web site explanation.  

Oh, by the way, your vision(??) Yikes!

sunodino -

 Paul 2 wrote:

Question:
How can Christ, who's mercy and grace are the saving attributes, rapture a "bride" , become a LION pouring out wrath, AND AT THE SAME TIME STILL BE THE MERCIFUL SAVIOUR OF THE TRIBULATION SAINTS? This theory is FALSE DOCTRINE!

You have to keep making up facts and convoluting the scripture to MAKE IT FIT!  

Paul did NOT reveal "it" He believed in one return of Christ NOT TWO.  He said himself
1 Cor 15:23,24
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

AND THIS:
2 Thes 2:3
3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

No one wants to go through the great tribulation OR ANY tribulation, we are creatures of comfort.  But the Lord WILL PURIFY HIS PEOPLE AND HIS PRIESTHOOD, and tribulation will work the patience needed to endure to the end, as it is written over and over again in the Revelation.

Romans 5
3  And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4  And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5  And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. Herein lies the patience of the saints.  

8 times in Revelation this is said:
 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith"

sunodino

     Why isn't  the word "Church" used in the Book of Revelation from chapter 4 to 19? Because its in heaven during that time.

     You don't have to believe it, you can start making up your survival kit, if I didn't believe in the Rapture I'd be scared, filled with fear of God's wrath, not hoping for His return.

      It must be a scary world for those who believe as you do, considering Israel seeks the peace that leads to Daniel's 70th week and the great tribulation.

It has been a while sinse of read Revelation. So please, show me the part of Rev 3 that talks about the Rapture.

I don't understand what's the big deal here ? Post/pre-Trib views differ 7 years at a max in physical time.

My absolute maximum variation is 30 years (generation 40 -70 years) so what is the big deal with those sesen years ?

The last time the Jewish spring Feasts were fulfilled, they were only days apart, so chances are the same thing will happen with the Fall feasts...  

On the other hand I personally experienced the rapture in connection with Dan 12:1, indicating a pre-trib rapture....

But those 7 years are short even in the eyes of us, mere mortals....  (that inherited everlasting conciousness with Christ)

I find it only interesting when, a period marked by a beginning; found in the bible and the end, also very well described in the scriptures.

I am interested in placing those biblical markers in space-time; a day, year and when possible an hour.

Simple

I like the parable about the Virgins in Matthew 25:1  As I am sure most prophecy freeks know about the Hebrew wedding ceremony story...for the benefit of others here it is.


Of course the parable about the 10 virgins brings the point home.   5 were wise bringing oil to keep the lamps burning.  The other 5 only brought lamps without oil.  The lamps are outward showing of light.  The oil is the grace or spirit of God.  Those who brought their lamps without oil only have an outward religious appearance, those who brought oil have the fullness of Gods spirit and will be able to see the bridegroom when he arrives.  When the Bridegroom retrieves the bride, they return to the fathers house, which I believe will be the wedding supper of the lamb.   There is no labor and such during this week of feasting.  I don't see how the a post trib rapture agrees with this.  The Bridegroom comes collects the bride, then immediately comes back down to earth.  Doesn't seem to jive.  God has always provided an escape for his people during times of judgement.  Granted believers do suffer, but are never subjected to Gods own Wrath!

I think the important thing to note, is that he is returning for those who are watching for him.  The church may be sleepy as all 10 Virgins were, but a wakeup call from the guard will alert those who are expecting him

Grace and Peace!

        2nd Timothy, that last post was great.

      Two Bombs, although the difference in views may be only 7 years, theres a profound difference in the effect they have on people. Are you looking for Jesus Christ or Antichrist?

     Do you long for His coming or hope He waits until your dead for fear of Antichrist? Do you wish it were today? I have no fear of the Antichrist or Great Tribulation because I know for a Biblical fact that I am not predestined to experience either. I am predestined to be in Heaven witnessing the events recorded in Revelation chapter 4 immediately after the Rapture. I was chosen to be there before the world was created by the grace and mercy of God only. I was in the crowd before God's throne when John was witnessing it. John saw the Church in Heaven with the crowns from the Bema Judgement seat, and I was there. John saw into our future, and told us our destiny was to witness Jesus open the seven sealed scroll, that we would witness the events of Revelation 4-22 with Jesus.

      John saw the Church in Heaven before the great Tribulation begins. I know where I'll be when Jesus takes the 7 sealed scroll from the Father, I'll be in the crowd before the throne. I don't know where I'll be tomorrow, but I know where I'll be on the day Revelation 4 is fulfilled.

 Tibby what does this mean to you?

Revelation 3:8: "I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
   9: Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
   10: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Revelation 4: 1: After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

    heres the most important verse in the Book of Revelation!

Revelation 1:19: "Write the things which thou hast seen, (the vision of chapter 1)  and the things which are, (things pertaining to the Church age, Church things)  and the things which shall be hereafter; (things which take place AFTER the Church age is ended by the Rapture)

    If you miss the meaning of Revelation 1:19 you can not fully understand the Book of Revelation. John followed the format Jesus gave him when writing the book and we need to follow that format to understand the book.

     When you read the words "Things which shall be hereafter" consider hereafter what? Hereafter the present tense Church things "which are". Hereafter the Church is Raptured, changing the tense from present to future. John was called to Heaven in Revelation 4:1 to witness the REAL EVENT of Revelation 4:1, The trumpet like voice of Jesus Christ Rapturing His Church. The 24 elders are crowned and representatives of the Church acting as priests before Jesus Christ our High Priest.


                                          the Pre-Trib. View by Paul2 8)

Paul2,

Thanks Brother!

I long for HIS COMING!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Hi Paul2,

I find problems with the pre-trib rapture that can be solved in a very elegant manner. ( they are not problems, actually. they were called 'problems' because of my ignorance :) )

The 'problem' is the Jew, the believing Jew I might add. Will he/she be raptured with the church, or will he/she stay here ?
Or: someone that is not aware that he or she is an descendant of Abraham yet is a fervent believer in Christ. (As it is naturally for he or she, as his/her line is Jewish)

There is another 'problem', let's say I am a very devote Christian (this time from the wild olive tree; a ' heathen' believer) This Christian has a cause for the Jewish people; insomuch that he/she even wants to move to the Holy place but at least stay with them until the End of the Age, wil they both be raptured or not ?

I believe that they might not be raptured and have a choice as it is written :

Hbr 11:35b     [....] and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

The more I thought of it the more I knew that this is a mystery.
For me it is easier on the mind/heart to grasp this as I know what I might miss those 7 years, 'missing' the rapture of the church yet also receiving glory; maybe as a martyr or as one that will be translated at the visible second coming of Christ.

The above is the true reason why I have kept this from this discussion until now, it not because of theological reasons I do not worry about 7 years; I do believe in the pre-trib rapure (ergo: I believe in the harvest of the wild olive tree [shortly] before the nurtured one)

Let's give an example to explain myself once more :
Zec 12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify [themselves] against Judah.

Evenmore the following verses speak at what day this shall be fullfilled :

Zec 12:8     In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David [shall be] as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

I hope I do not need to remind the reader
Dan 12:1     And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Zechariah continues;
Zec 12:9     And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10     And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

Remember Zech 12:7 ; Judah is already 'raised', 12:8-10 continues with the house of David.

The fact of the matter is: do we have a choice at the rapture to be taken or not ?

Hebrews 11:35b indicates we might have that choice.

    Hi Two bombs,

     First of all, Jews, who have accepted Christ are part of the Church and also are the "remnant" of Israel. They will be raptured.

     The Church has different destiny than those who are to become Tribulation Saints. The Churches dwelling place is the New Jerusalem, prepared for us by Jesus (see John 14:3).

      The Tribulation Saints and old testament Saints are destined to dwell on the earth.

       The Church is glorified at the Rapture, and can not be tempted to rebel ever again. At the end of the Millenium Satan is released to test those who have not been glorified, the survivors of the Great Tribulation, whos lives have been extended by Jesus removing the curse but they will be tested by Satan again and sadly many will chose to follow Satan's rebellion again.

      The Church has a special destiny with a purpose involved, Jesus is not just sparing us from wrath but bringing us to Himself to the place he prepared for us, where we will receive our new assignments. The church in Heaven won't be sitting around playing harps, we will be given assignments to carry out for the Lord. We are qualifing for those new assignments now on earth, what we do now effects our eternal destiny.

      I don't know about you, but I don't want to be tested by Satan again when he is released after the Millenium. I don't want to be stuck living on earth, when I can be a citizen of the New Jerusalem perpared for the Church.

     To wish to remain behind at the Rapture seems to be saying to God, "you made a mistake, I don't want the destiny you chose for me, I don't want to be with you in the place you perpared for me, I'd rather stay on earth and take my chances when Satan is allowed to test those who survived the Great Tribulation and entered the Millenium."

      I love the destiny I have been called to, I want citizenship in the New Jerusalem, I want to be glorified and given an assigned purpose for which I was created for.

      Do you love Jesus enough to want to be with him at His calling for you, or does this corrupt earth and this sinful life have more appeal?

      Would you rather be the "Bride" of Christ, which is the Church, or the "friend of the BrideGroom" which are Tribulation Saints? Friends of the BrideGroom don't live with the Bridegroom in the New Jerusalem, but the Bride, the Church does!

                                                    Paul2

Hi Paul2,

You are correct when I view myself as a guest on the feast of the Lord. That is because I have reasons to believe that the New Jerusalem is the bride, not the church.

As such I indeed do not care about my rank in this; I know that i will be raptured, and apparently the day will be when Dan 12:1 and 12:6 are fullfilled.

I am toying with the concept of the order of resurection; I do have my reasons as I believe our salvation is earned very easy when you compare with the Jews and the trib saints....

FYI

Unholy heresy, Batman! It’s Gnosticism!

GnahGnahGnahGnahGnahGnahGnahGnah
GnahGnahGnahGnahGnahGnahGnahGnah
Gnosticism!

 ;)

    Hi Two Bombs,
       I don't understand. You believe the place prepared for US is the bride? Jesus is going to marry a city he created? The New Jerusalem is the home of the Bride, the church, created by our bridegroom, Christ, for us, His bride. the church.

       As for Daniel 12, those resurrected onto life will be the Old testament Saints and Tribulation Saints, raised from the dead at the "second coming" not the Rapture. Those resurrected onto death will not be raised until the Great White Throne Judgment after the Millenium, and thrown into the lake of fire.

      The Rapture and the Second Coming are not the same event, they are seperated by a minimum of 2,520 days.

      Imagine if the Lord Raptured His Church right now, and the next thing you know your face to face with Jesus. And Jesus asks you, "what were you doing when I called you up here?" I could answer " I was discussing your imminent return at the Rapture, trying to explain that you could come and take the Church out of this world at any time." How many of you would have to answer," I was denying your imminent return, trying to explain that you couldn't take the Church out of the world at any time because the Church must go through the Great Tribulation and be presecuted by Antichrist before you could come." Sadly some of you will have to face him and explain why.

       Who are the 24 elders of Revelation 4-5 and why do they have crowns? Read the King James version of Revelation 4-5 because it differs greatly from other versions.

                                                    Paul2

PS.  We haven't earned our Salvation at all, we don't deserve it, it was a unmerited gift of Grace and Mercy. When you said "earned very easy" you seem to assume you deserve it, then you seem to question whether or not your deserving enough of escaping the wrath. We all deserve the wrath, not one of us qualifies for anything else. It was Jesus christ who saved us by His Grace and Mercy, unmerited by anythiung we have done. You and I deserve wrath not mercy but Jesus decided we would receive unmerited Grace, Mercy, Salvation and Rapture to be with Him so who can argue with that or want to for that matter! I'm just thankful that a wrech like me found Grace and Mercy through Jesus Christ and will be Raptured even though I deserve Hell fire.

                                                        Paul2

Hi Paul,

Exept for Moses, Eliah and Enoch all the OT saints were resurrected in :
Mat 27:52   And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,  
Mat 27:53   And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.  

The New Jerusalem is described very vivid in :
Rev 21:2   And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.  

Hereby I witness myself:
And I, Aryan, saw the city the New Jerusalem, from God in which both saints and angels dwelt.

You might understand that I have absolutely no problem with John calling the NJ prepared as a bride...

You see Paul2; I paid my experience in heaven almost with my own life, and therefore I cannot deny it...
With respect to your faith, no earthly doctrine can change that; I am not a bride-church believer, I hope you can live with that :)

Now while this may be true, the word church is not the only word the relates to Gods congregation known as the church, the church can also be reffered to as the assembly, or the body of Christ and the word congregation definitely cannot be ruled out.

Congregation refers to a group people gathered for a common cause,or purpose, especially a religious purpose (Ex 12:3, Acts 13:43).  In the OT congregation often reffered to the entire Hebrew people, also called the people of Israel. Just as we have local congregations of believers today, congregation sometimes meant s specific group of believers, in a speciifc place.
Now, consider the prophet Joel;
Joel begins at chapter 2, (while there are elements that refer to the Babylonian destruction, the Day of the Lord specifically is an end times prophecy) by a call to battle sounding the alarm for the day of the Lord is at hand, this is refering to the earthly return of the Lord, at the end of the Great Tribulation, Jesus refers to this day at Mat 24:29-31.
Joel 2, speaking of the Day of the Lord, notice the prophecy;
1  Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
2  A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
3  A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
4  The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
5  Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
6  Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
7  They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
8  Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
9  They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
10  The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

And when we read further down at verses 15,
Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
16  Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
17  Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?

Clearly this is not just speaking of the people of Israel, since a sacred assembly of all classes of people (signified by the word whosoever" at the end of the passage at verse 32, who shall be delivered.

Delivered from what??  The wrath, poured out upon the earth in the Day of the Lord, note what Zepheniah says;

Zep 14  The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15  That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
While Revelation does give us some insight into the end times, Isa, Ezekiel, Amos, Joel, Daniel and others give much unsight into the ends times, and clearly, just as the word trinity or bible is not found in scripture, just because the word chuirch is not mentioned in Rev from the 4th chapter onward, this does not discount members of the body being present on the earth in those days.
So I wouldn't discount the church being on earth during the Tribulation, just because, God promises to keep us from the hour of His wrath on the earth.
The explanation of the Bridegroom beating up the bride, before the marriage, sounds like a good explanation for a rapture prior to the coming tribulation upon the earth, but it is just simply a man made logically reasoned excuse for not wanting to experience the testing of ones faith, and yet we read that God tests and chasteneth those whom he loves.
Either way, whether here or there, let us continue in doing good, and above all else preaching the good news of the gospel to every creature.

God Bless,
Petro

     Petro,

     You should know me better by now. I have many, many reasons for claiming the Rapture of the Church is before the 70th week. I've never counted but I'll bet theres at least a hundred reasons, I'll do a study soon and see how many reasons I can find. Remember that you won't find the rapture mystery in the Old Testament because the Church itself was still a mystery.

                                      Paul2

    Many bodies of the Saints arose, but how can you say "all"?
Those that did arise were "first fruits", Daniel is still sleeping, as far as I can tell from Scripture.


     "Prepared as "A" bride seems to convey a comparison of the city to "A" bride adorned for her husband. To convey that the Holy city is the bride, it should read like this: prepared as "THE" bride adorned for her husband. If it were stated like that it would be easier to argue that the City was in fact "The Bride" in stead of being compared to "a" bride.


     I have no idea what you are saying above, it seems that your claiming to have seen the New Jerusalem with your own eyes. I'd like to understand just what your saying here.

     I don't believe "earthly" doctrine, but what Scripture teaches, I can live with the fact that your not a bride church believer, if you can...

     Ephesians 5:31 "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
   32: This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

     When the Apostle Paul speaks of mysteries its time to go deep and really study because he is revealing things previously not known.

Romans 11:25 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in."

       The fulness of the Gentiles be come in, means the Church is completed, full, finished, perfected, and Raptured. Then and only then will Israel's blindness be lifted, the Church is in the way, and must be completed and Raptured before Israel's eyes will see clearly. The bride of Christ, His Church is a stumbling block for Israel just as Christ Himself is. Israel won't see clearly until the Church is Raptured.

                                     The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2 8)

Twotombs,

Scratch Moses off your list, He is numbered with faithful Abraham, he died on Mt Nebo.

God says he died.  In fact God commanded him to go upon the Mt and die.....

Deut
Get thee up into this mountain Abarim, unto mount Nebo,.........And die in the mount whither thou goest up,....Because ye trespassed against me among the children of Israel at the waters of Meribah-Kadesh, in the wilderness of Zin; because ye sanctified me not in the midst of the children of Israel.   (Deut 32:49,50,51)


And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death.  (Deut 33:1)
   

Blessings,
Petro

Jud 1:9     Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

Pedro; have a nice one.

twotombs,

Talk about minds being miles apart..

I say read the rest of this passage, and it may clear things up for you.

Peter, and the others thought Elias, Moses and Jesus were come to rule on the earth, Notice Jesus answer.

Did they build the tabernacles, nawww...

Because, it wans't the way they thought it was to be.

Just like yourself, ye do greatly err, not knowing the scriptures;

Jesus said;

Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
25  For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
26  And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27  He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Thou they live there is no evidence they have resurrcted  on  the earth, the closest you can get to this is,

Mat 17
10  And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12  But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13  Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Verse 13 is in refernce to;
 
Mal 4
5  Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

No evidence that Elijah arose from the grave, since he did not die, just like enoch. Neither has Abraham risen, he does live in the spirit, but his body sleeps.

Elijah was carried up into heaven bodily in a whirlwind.  (2 Kings 2:1-11)

Good day, and Blessings
Pedro

Petro: my nick is Two Bombs. As in the things that fall on Babylonian soil on the days of wrath.
Second: apparently you are so convinced of your cause, not willing to even contemplate my input that adding more information would be a waiste of bandwith
Third: I sense a sort of hostility that is not very Christian in your posting, and I think I know the root cause.

What is your idea on "Rapture season 2006/2007 facts & evidence" ?

twotombs,

Never mind about the analysis, as for your waisting your bandwith, you are perceptive and are correct.

Reconcile your scriptures, and quit posting nonsense..

Elijia and Enoch, were taken up into heaven bodily, Moses died here on the earth.

And as you can see from the scripture you posted his body was disputed over by the angel and Satan, which ought to have engaged your brain into thinking about the body of Moses, not that it matters to me but ;  Ask yourself,

Where is it on earth or in heaven??

you posted;

Exept for Moses, Eliah and Enoch all the OT saints were resurrected in :
Mat 27:52  And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,  
Mat 27:53  And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Not the verses, but your comment herein is mere speculation...concerning Elijah, Enoch and Moses, in the context of these verses.

Let me guess, is this Mormon doctrine you are attempting to infuse into Christian biblical scriptural theology.


Aryan who?  said all this...................right out of the pearl of great price is it...??


Petro

Petro: I am very disappointed in you; please understand that... do not fight me like this; it makes me very disappointed.

No; I am not mad at you, but you are flaming up this carefully crafted response thread for just one, small detail on the whole scope.

I am closing this thread.

Re-opened

In the 13th chapter of Ezek, God say's he is against those  false prophets of the 'house of israel' who hunt souls to make them 'fly'.'fly'-strongs #6524 in the hebrew language-parach-To break forth as a bud i.e. bloom;generaly to spread; specifically to fly(as extending the wings);figuratively; to flourish:
Why would God be against flying away? It is second worst deception compared to the appearance of the false christ, which most will worship!
1st Century christians had no physical protection against there tribulation, why are we so special to recieve some secret fly away so called rapture into the clouds?

If you want to be protected during the tribulation. The answer is the 'seal of God' Rev 9:4

God Bless
Jesus Peace,

Jason

  Paul2, in Post #16:
<<     Why isn't  the word "Church" used in the Book of Revelation from chapter 4 to 19? Because its in heaven during that time. >>

  I will have to disagree. Take a look at Revelation Chapter 12:
"A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head."  Revelation 12: 1 NIV

  The woman here is the Christian Church. As I understand the symbolism, the Sun = God the Father; the moon = Jesus Christ, the woman = the Church; the twleve stars = the Apostles and their teaching; the woman's child = the Second Coming of Christ.
  The dragon, Satan, makes war against the woman because the woman is the Church.
 
  It is incredible to me that anyone would think that the Church in the 21st Century would enter heaven in a "Rapture" through the door in heaven that John's spirit passed through in the First Century!

  TrueWordBeliever, Jason:
<< If you want to be protected during the tribulation. The answer is the 'seal of God' Rev 9:4 >>

  Good point and good post. Welcome!

Hmm.  I'm not sure I follow you here Dale.  The church is going to birth the second coming?   I would very much like to hear what other scripture you can offer to show this to be true.   Lets examine the verses in this chapter a little bit.

Rev 12:4  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

The woman, brings forth a manchild, which you believe is the second coming.  Now, this child according to John, was born
and the last half of verse 5 says that this child was caught up to God and to his throne.  So the second coming is going to be caught up to God and his throne going by your description.  This makes no sense to me, but lets continue...

Rev 12:6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

This verse now shows the church (as you describe) fleeing into the wilderness, after she gives birth to the second coming which is caught up into heaven?  Do you see the problem here?  I really don't understand how one can make sense of these things the way you describe them.

The way I read it, the manchild is Christ who will rule with an Iron Rod (see Psalms 2:7-9 for a clear explanation of the ONE who is begotten of God and will rule with an Iron Rod), and the woman is Israel who will be protected by God in the desert for the last half of the tribulation (Jeremiah 30 and 31 eludes to this).  For biblical description of these symbols sun, moon, stars etc... see Gen 37:9  I believe these describe Jacob-father, Sarah-mother, Joseph-son and his eleven brothers who are the forefathers (tribes) of the nation of Israel which God promised the messiah would come....the manchild who will rule with an Iron Rod.  Scripture interpriting scripture.


To understand Revelation correctly, you must first observe the conditions given to John by the Lord.  These give the outline of things John is to record throughout the book.

Rev 1:19  Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

and at the end of Revelation John explains...

Rev 22:8  And I John saw these things, and heard them.

So John writes down everything he see's and hears, past, present, and future.  He describes things he had already seen in chapter 1, things that are present chapter 2 through chapter 3, and future things chapter 4 and later (3 specific parts of the book).  There is clearly shift from present tense to future tense going by the words starting in chapter four...

Rev 4:1  After this (present things) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. (later on....future things).

John saw things that happened "hereafter", litterally in the  future.  Is it really so hard to imagine that God is able to show John events that will transpire at a much later date?  If we accept Gods instruction to his bondservant John, and read the text plainly as John was instructed to record it by the Lord, we will begin to make sense of this important revelation that God has provided us with.


The only people ever sealed with Gods protection in Revelation are those who are members of the tribes of Israel.  Note that John recorded (as intructed) the number he heard.

Rev 7:4  And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

He continues listed the number 12,000 for each individual tribe, 12 in all.

Reading this passage litterally, this is clearly speaking of Israel, an exact number from each tribe that will accept Christ as messiah during the tribulation.  Nothing here about the church being preserved from wrath.  That promise is in 1 Thessalonians 5:9

Grace and Peace!

It is incredible to me that anyone could believe the way you do Dale. You need to start reading Pauls letters.

The Crusader

Really? Every Christian till about 150 years ago believed as Dale. Guess what, Crusader... Left Behind isn't Scripture ::) When you get right down to it, Left Behind isn't Scriptural!

2nd Timothy,

If you will Start at the begining of Ch5 of 1st Thess.

In v2 it says
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

The subject that is being taught here is the "day of the Lord"

What is the day of the Lord? Well according to Zechariah Ch 14.
Zech 14:1
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh.....
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle....
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations,.......
4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east,........

Notice it says His feet will stand upon the mount of Olives, Here on EARTH, NOT up in the air in the clouds.

The seal of God is knowing the Truth, knowing the false christ appears 1st, before Our CHRIST!
just like the mark of the Beast is believing all the lies and deception that is caused by the fake christ.


Do you know who Israel is?The Real Jews (The Real descendants of Judah) who inhabit Jerusalem and the rest of the earth make up a very small part of the True Israel! Beware of the false jews, Jesus warned us about them in Rev 2:9 and Rev 3:9

God Bless
Jesus Peace,

Jason

Hi Jason!


I agree with all of this.  The Day Of the Lord is not the catching up of believers to meet the lord in the air (1Th 4:17 mentioned prior to this).  The Day Of the Lord comes as a thief in the night, and occurs while unbelievers are saying Peace and Saftey 1 Thes 5:3.  Notice the stark contrast between the end of chapter 4 and the beginning of chapter 5.  Chapter 5 starts with, "But of the times and seasons bretheren, ye have no need that I write unto you (a shift in the subject).  The question was of the specific times and seasons of prophetic events that lead up to the coming of the lord.  Paul reminds them that they know perfectly well about this, as opposed to their ignorance in the previous chapter.  Lets keep in mind here that the DAY of the Lord is very near the time of the antichrist will be revealved (2Th 2:3  [.............], for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed,).

Another NT passage that speaks of the day of the Lord...

2Pe 3:7  But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11  Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12  Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

And then....
Rev 21:1  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Quite a span of time for "the day of the lord" which starts after the antichrist is revealed, and ends when the heavens and earth are destroyed with fire in the end of Revelation.

But for us, our event happens within the twinkling of an eye (1 Cor 15:51-52).

So in summary.

1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7  For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live (not persish) together with him.
1Th 5:11  Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Reading this entire passage seems to sum things up nicely.  The day of the lord is sudden, and catches unbelievers by surprise, it happens during a time when unblievers are saying peace and saftey, encompasses a lengthy period of time, and involves enormous wrath.  However, believers are not surprised due to being in the light of his spirit, in the hope of salvation, we are not appointed to Gods wrath, and we are told we will be alive....with him...

Joh 14:2  In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Our event culminates with...

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

To allegorize these passages, and not read them plainly is to miss the glorious hope we are promised.  What peace and hope believers should have as that terrible day approaches!

Grace and Peace!

Why should we be so scared of the future tribulation. There has always been killing, rape, all kinds of evil violence.
The future tribulation will be a spiritual tribulation, it will be caused by the false christ with all of his miracles and wonders he will perform before the people(Rev13:13-14).He will decieve many into thinking he is the Real Christ! He will cause them to fall away from the True Christ that appears at the Last (7th Trump), not before.

Believers who are alive at the 7th trump are not promised anything.If they go along with the false christ, they will be subject to the 2nd death which is the Great White Throne Judgement(Rev 20:14, Rev 21:8)How do we avoid this? Be apart of the first resurection(Rev 20:4-6)! Dont alow the Beast to put his mark on you, or should I say in you(Your Beliefs) Don't allow him to decieve you! Don't be caught nursing a baby when the Real Christ appears, ifso you have allowed the false christ to impregnate you with his lies and deception(Mark 13:17)according to 2nd Corinth 11 v2 we are to be presented to Christ as a chaste virgin.v3 We are not to be beguiled(exapatao-seduced wholly, strongs# 1818 in the greek)as Eve was seduced by the serpent, The devil, dragon, whatever you want to call him!

We need spiritual protection, not physical.

The only gathering together will be at the 7th Trump 'The Day of the Lord' that is the 1 Cor 15 51-52 event when 'WE' in the twinkling of an eye will be changed into our spiritual bodies(1 cor 15 42-50)


God Bless
Jesus Peace,

Jason

Jason,

I'm not sure what to say to this.


The tribulation will be very real and very physical.  Its not a hidden spiritual event.  By the midway point, between 1.5 to 3 billion people will be killed (provided there are 6-7 billion alive at the beginning) according to the numbers John gives after various judgments.   Thats roughly half the current popluation on earth now if its the higher number.   Considering that does not include the trumpets or the bowls, I can only assume that a few million if that many will even survive till the end of judgment.  Makes the blessed hope sound pretty bleak if it comes at the end doesn't it?   I'm not saying we as christians should  fear physical death, we have the promise of eternal life, but the horror of that 7 year time span cannot be understated.  The bad times we wittness today will be good days in comparison to what is going to come on the earth then.  Gods wrath will be very emmence and beyond imagination, and we are not appointed for that...His holy word says so!


The ressurection is promised to those who are dead.  The rapture while being promised to the dead also, is an extremely blessed promise to the living  "Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds".   In Cor. he says we shall be changed!  No death! Those who experience that will truly be blessed.   I'm not sure why you believe I tie the 7th trumpet to any promise.  The 7th trumpet ushers in worse judgments, not a blessed promise.


The mark of the beast is a litteral thing Jason.  We know this because John says no man can buy or sell without it, and, he will cause (make) everyone take it...those who do not will be killed.  While I agree only the decieved will receive this mark, it must be understood to be a real and physical thing, and will not be instituted until Satan is cast down from the war in heaven and fully controls the Antichrist.  It doesn't make sense to say it just refers to deception.  People were deceived all throughout history in the bible, yet we can only find mention of this Mark specifically in Revelation, and John ties economics to it there.  Its a real Mark.


Again this 7th trump is a judgment trump.  Revelation was written many years after Corinthians.  Believers at that time would not have equated the trumpet to a book that had not been written yet.  The verse eludes me at the moment, but in the OT there were a series of trumpets that were used to ready troops for battle.  The first one was used to call out the troops and make ready, the second, or last trumpet was blown to give marching orders (maybe someone who recalls where this is in the OT can jump in).  I have always felt this was what Paul was eluding to.  There is no reason to believe that the trumpet spoken of in Corinthians is speaking of the 7th trumpet of Revelations.  My view (and I know some do not agree) is that we will be gone long before the 7th trump of Rev.

God has always removed his people from harms way when his judgment is about to be unleashed.  There is no clear reason given in scripture to believe this case would be any different, during the worst wrath ever seen on earth, even that of Noahs day.  In fact, there is plenty of scripture to confirm the contrary.

Maranatha!

Oklahoma Howdy to 2nd Timothy,

AMEN BROTHER!

God's children will indeed be caught up (raptured) to meet the Lord in the air. You are also correct that God's children will not be here for the mass judgment and slaughter. This is why we need to be relentless in witnessing to our families, our friends, and every lost person God gives us an opportunity to witness to.

It is also true that God's children will not face the judgment for the lake of fire. That judgment is for the lost, not Christians. The only judgment Christians will face is nothing at all to be feared. The good works of every Christian will be judged for rewards in heaven. I look forward to the Christian Judgment, not for the rewards, simply to be in Glory with my Lord and Saviour for eternity.

I think the Holy Bible is quite clear that the rapture, being caught up, will take place prior to the 7 year tribulation period. I'm looking for some time to study the portions of Scripture that prove this again. I've been busy with other Bible Study projects, but I hope to be able to post this proof soon.

Brother, in the meantime KEEP LOOKING UP!

Love In Christ,
Tom  

  2nd Timothy :
<< Rev 7:4  And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

He continues listed the number 12,000 for each individual tribe, 12 in all.

Reading this passage litterally, this is clearly speaking of Israel, an exact number from each tribe that will accept Christ as messiah during the tribulation.>>

  Timothy:
             Are you aware that there are only two surviving Tribes of Israel today, namely Judah and Benjamin?  The other ten were destroyed or lost their Jewish identity.
  If God is literally going to gather 12, 000 from tweve Tribes, then these Tribes are not what you think they are.

  Recently I watched a TV movie dramatizing the beliefs of conservative Christians about the end times. The title is Image of the Beast and fortunately it isn't based on the Left Behind series.
  Image of the Beast does come to some far-fetched conclusions. For instance, the 200 million man army mentioned in Revelation is interpeted as cavalry--200 million horsemen riding into modern war! This is both unscriptural and ridiculous. In a modern war cavlry would be mowed down by machine guns with shocking speed.
  Image of the Beast also assumes that the plagues of Revelation continue the plagues of Exodus. Never heard that before. This leads to the conclusion that the fire-breathing horses are mythical-looking supernatural creatures, apparently angels in disguise. They are pictured as having the heads of eagles, bodies of lions, wings of bumblebees, gold crowns(?), and tails of scorpions.
  The passage this supposedly comes form is Revelation 9:1-11. Revelation first describes the palgue as locusts from hell, then goes on to picture them as horses with "iron breastplates" and chariots.
  What does this sound like in the modern world? Fire-breathing horses sounds like an invasion of tanks. This leaves two strong possibilities:
(1) The angel used the image of fire-breathing horses to put across an impression of modern warfare to a 1st century person.
(2) John saw the tanks but used the image to explain it to people of his time.
  Why the image of locusts? Locusts are known as devouring pests. Locusts which become horses a second later may suggest that the war is about food. When famine strikes the world, a powerful country (or coalition) sends an army of tanks to seize the food supply of weaker countries. This could well seem like an invasion from hell to those on the receiving end.
  Doesn't it make more sense to interpret Revelation in the light of things known to exist, instead of mythical creatures?
  Image of the Beast starts off with a Rapture scenario. It presents an interpretation of Revelation that is excessively literal, arbitrary and downright nonsensical. I'm afraid that the main effect of movies like this is to make Christians look silly.

Yes I am.  However, are you aware that God promises to restore these people in the last days?

Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

So we have OT prophecy predicting this, and NT prophecy reafirming it.  Again, a literal interpretation of scripture is required. Note that in Revelation John NAMES the tribes.  Why should we assume he means something other than what he was shown?   As a matter of fact, in case you have not seen recent news...


Follow this link (http://www.reuters.com/locales/newsArticle.jsp?type=worldNews&locale=en_IN&storyID=4093572) to read the story.

In Zephania we read...

Zep 3:10  From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia my suppliants, even the daughter of my dispersed, shall bring mine offering.

Zephania, the son of Cushi, was a grandson of Noah. He is the father of all the Ethiopian Jews if I am not mistaken.  I am not sure what tribe they are from (maybe Benjamin).  Either way, in light of God promising bring the remnant of his people back to Israel, this newstory is quite amazing to me.  Expect more of the same in the future!  

Jews have been flooding back to Israel since 1948.  All 12 tribes must be there before the midway point of tribulation to be sealed, because remember, John was instructed to write down what he saw and heard.  He heard the number 12,000, and the names of 12 tribes, 144,000 total.  If you believe Gods word is true, then this will happen!  I believe we are already witnessing the beginning of these prophecies.  Its only a matter of time before Jesus steps off his throne to come get his church.

Grace and Peace!

Tom,


In my recent studies, I am finding more and more reason to accept this view as well.  I am also facinated at events unfolding before our very eyes in news within the last few months alone.  The shadows of these prophecies already appear to be looming on the horizon.  Exciting times we live in.  But you are right about needing urgency in our labour for the Lord.   Time is running out for the world, and we have so much left before us, and so many that need the one true Gospel of Christ.  May God give us peace in the hope of his return for us, and also an urgency in our labour of Love for him and the lost.

Grace and Peace!

Hi Dale,

First off I did not see that movie, so I wont comment about it.  Anyone trying to make sense of end times by comparison to a movie will probably be missled.  We know that Gods word however is true.   So I would tend to agree in some respect.  While I do take scripture literally, I think its important to be wise about prophetic scenes John lays out.  As Hal Lindsey has said on numerous occasions (which I believe he may be correct), he states that John, being a first century man was litterally shown future events (even future to us at this point).  He was told to write down what he saw and heard.  Now for a moment, imagine John seeing current day war.  Of course, never having seen a tank, or a helicopter, or any such machinery, he had to try and describe these things in his modern day langauge.  Lets look at that passage.

Rev 9:7  And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
Rev 9:8  And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
Rev 9:9  And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
Rev 9:10  And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

This very well could be describing some sort of demonic plague.  But I feel there is another possibilty.  Consider how John writes about these things.  He says, the shapes of the locust were like unto horses prepared for battle.  Now of course, John never having seen a helicopter, had to find something he could relate to in his day.  A heli does sort of resemble the shape of a Locust.  John had seen Roman soldiers horeses girded with iron armour.  He says they are LIKE that.   He says on their heads was if it were LIKE crowns of Gold.  Maybe he was trying to describe some metalic object on the heli.  Then, he says that their faces were the faces of men.  If John were looking into the cockpit of a heli, he would have seen the pilot in his helmet and shades, and maybe not have recognised what he was looking at.  But he see the face of a man.   He then describes hair as hair of women, maybe the whirling blades...again John had never seen machinery move so fast it was almost invisible.  And teeth like a lion.  The gunnery on the front.  Breatplates of iron, and sounded LIKE the chariots of many horses running into battle.   Not hard to imagine the thumps of a chopper flying overhead.  Tails LIKE a scorpion, and power to hurt men for 5 months, and the torment was LIKE the sting of a scorpion.   The tail of heli certainly resembles the shape of tail and stinger.   Also not hard to imagine missles being fired from this area.   I have read that there are chemical weapons that have a similar effect to a scoprion sting in existance today.   I don't know that John saw choppers, but it seems possible viewing it in this light.  

As for the 200 million man army, China has actually claimed to have this many soldiers under arms currently.  That in itself is paramount to fulfilled prophecy, because there was no kingdom in bible days with this many people, and probably not that many people in the world at that time.   Again, considering the symbolic language that is used, John may have very well seen an armoured tank division going into battle.  

Rev 9:17  And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

Their heads were LIKE heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire and smoke.   One does not have to use much imagination to picture a tank here.  Even the gunner sitting on top of a tank, wearing his protective gear, and the shield of the machine gun.

Scripture should be read literally I believe.  When the text makes perfect sense, seek no other sense.  However, when John says I saw something LIKE, or looks LIKE, then we have to consider what he could possibly mean.  And knowing that John had a glimps of times way future to him, these ideas start to make more sense.   Its also interesting to note, that early day readers of this book would had to of spiritualized many of things, because they could not relate things John spoke of to anything they knew.  However, this vision is beginning to take on a very real world look in our times.  Daniel was told to seal up his words when he asked for his events to be explained.  The Angel told him it would not be understood until the times of the end.   Clearly, bible prophecy is beginning to make literal sense these days.  Which to me, indicates we are moving ever closer to these events coming to pass.

Maranatha!

  Post #43: Tibby:
<< Really? Every Christian till about 150 years ago believed as Dale. Guess what, Crusader... Left Behind isn't Scripture  When you get right down to it, Left Behind isn't Scriptural! >>

  Thanks, Tibby! God bless!

You are welcome. Anything to help the truth along. Blessings right back at you.

*bump*

Oklahoma Howdy to TwoBombs,

I might join in a very friendly discussion, but I've decided to never debate it again. I found out that some brothers and sisters in Christ got angry and others got hurt feelings. I'm partly responsible for that and ask forgiveness.

The absolute JOY is us spending eternity with Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour. The when and how of the tribulation period should not be allowed to spoil this joy and fellowship between brothers and sisters in Christ.

Bible prophecy is still an area of interest and study for me, but I've seen what it can do in harming fellowship.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Hello Tom.
 Just back from a wee hospital visit, my brother.
You are so right about the real need to present the literal truth, and the almost inevitable outcome - that is - hurt feelings and angry responses.
This is a conundrum isn't it?

 If we are to fulfill God's Will in spreading His Truth, in order that all would have the full power of His Word in order to make the "right" decisions - then it is incumbent upon us to persist - and yet, at times, even though our intentions are to fulfill our Godly obligation - it seems we only accomplish the opposite, and drive a wedge between our brothers and sisters. Unbelievers must watch this and scoff.
 It is a real balancing act, that we must persist in with the utmost care and attention. However, the fact remains, that we must persist.

God Bless everyone of us on this forum, and may He truly guide our tempers and intentions.

Bronzesnake.

Oklahoma Howdy to Bronzesnake,

Brother, I have no doubt at all about sharing THE CROSS and telling people about accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. My difficulty and prayers regard non-Salvation issues that are a controversy between brothers and sisters in Christ.

There is always an urgency to share the GOOD NEWS of the Gospel of God's Grace, regardless of an impending end times or not. I'm still praying about what topics to argue and how to argue them in a way that would be most pleasing to God. I have no doubts at all about shouting THE CROSS from the rooftops. Brother, the rest is still a matter of prayer.

Love In Christ,
Tom

 :D

I have to totally agree with Blackeyedpeas, when the body of believers argue hatefully, its a blemish, other non believers are thinging they can't even agree among themselves, why should I bother. There are "healthy" ways to disagree. We are to keep each other sharp, and give correction, we should always do everything in love.

The time of Christ return is closer now than it was back then, how much closer are we now? If we could all remember everything thing we do has an eternal reward, but now adays it seems less and less ppl have a concept of everlasting punishment or peace.  The timing of a rapture, pre, mid, post, is good for friendly debate, but I agree, its those who have no idea, or who could care less about a tribulation let alone rapture. Our debates are witnesses to those who happen by....

away we go......
musicllover

You know we can argue over biblical interpretation until the rapture, for God said, Matthew 36 But no one knows of that day and hour, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
The only smart thing we can do, is be ready for God when he calls us home.

  Precisely, Amen dreamweaver!

The daily walk with the Lord is looking to His will in our life

for His glory.  To be open and ready for His work through us

and fellowship with the Lord all the day long!  If one lives

this way one day, the rest to follow will be of thirst to repeat

the first day recieving peace and joy each day in the Lord!

36  For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.  Mark 3

24  And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.  Mark 3

31  So likewise ye, when ye see these thngs come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is night at hand.   Luke 21