ChristiansUnite Forums

NYT: A War We Just Might Win

MICHAEL E. O’HANLON and KENNETH M. POLLACK

VIEWED from Iraq, where we just spent eight days meeting with American and Iraqi military and civilian personnel, the political debate in Washington is surreal. The Bush administration has over four years lost essentially all credibility. Yet now the administration’s critics, in part as a result, seem unaware of the significant changes taking place.

Here is the most important thing Americans need to understand: We are finally getting somewhere in Iraq, at least in military terms. As two analysts who have harshly criticized the Bush administration’s miserable handling of Iraq, we were surprised by the gains we saw and the potential to produce not necessarily “victory” but a sustainable stability that both we and the Iraqis could live with.

After the furnace-like heat, the first thing you notice when you land in Baghdad is the morale of our troops. In previous trips to Iraq we often found American troops angry and frustrated — many sensed they had the wrong strategy, were using the wrong tactics and were risking their lives in pursuit of an approach that could not work.

Today, morale is high. The soldiers and marines told us they feel that they now have a superb commander in Gen. David Petraeus; they are confident in his strategy, they see real results, and they feel now they have the numbers needed to make a real difference.

Everywhere, Army and Marine units were focused on securing the Iraqi population, working with Iraqi security units, creating new political and economic arrangements at the local level and providing basic services — electricity, fuel, clean water and sanitation — to the people. Yet in each place, operations had been appropriately tailored to the specific needs of the community. As a result, civilian fatality rates are down roughly a third since the surge began — though they remain very high, underscoring how much more still needs to be done.

In Ramadi, for example, we talked with an outstanding Marine captain whose company was living in harmony in a complex with a (largely Sunni) Iraqi police company and a (largely Shiite) Iraqi Army unit. He and his men had built an Arab-style living room, where he met with the local Sunni sheiks — all formerly allies of Al Qaeda and other jihadist groups — who were now competing to secure his friendship.

In Baghdad’s Ghazaliya neighborhood, which has seen some of the worst sectarian combat, we walked a street slowly coming back to life with stores and shoppers. The Sunni residents were unhappy with the nearby police checkpoint, where Shiite officers reportedly abused them, but they seemed genuinely happy with the American soldiers and a mostly Kurdish Iraqi Army company patrolling the street. The local Sunni militia even had agreed to confine itself to its compound once the Americans and Iraqi units arrived.

We traveled to the northern cities of Tal Afar and Mosul. This is an ethnically rich area, with large numbers of Sunni Arabs, Kurds and Turkmens. American troop levels in both cities now number only in the hundreds because the Iraqis have stepped up to the plate. Reliable police officers man the checkpoints in the cities, while Iraqi Army troops cover the countryside. A local mayor told us his greatest fear was an overly rapid American departure from Iraq. All across the country, the dependability of Iraqi security forces over the long term remains a major question mark.

But for now, things look much better than before. American advisers told us that many of the corrupt and sectarian Iraqi commanders who once infested the force have been removed. The American high command assesses that more than three-quarters of the Iraqi Army battalion commanders in Baghdad are now reliable partners (at least for as long as American forces remain in Iraq).

In addition, far more Iraqi units are well integrated in terms of ethnicity and religion. The Iraqi Army’s highly effective Third Infantry Division started out as overwhelmingly Kurdish in 2005. Today, it is 45 percent Shiite, 28 percent Kurdish, and 27 percent Sunni Arab.

In the past, few Iraqi units could do more than provide a few “jundis” (soldiers) to put a thin Iraqi face on largely American operations. Today, in only a few sectors did we find American commanders complaining that their Iraqi formations were useless — something that was the rule, not the exception, on a previous trip to Iraq in late 2005.

The additional American military formations brought in as part of the surge, General Petraeus’s determination to hold areas until they are truly secure before redeploying units, and the increasing competence of the Iraqis has had another critical effect: no more whack-a-mole, with insurgents popping back up after the Americans leave.

In war, sometimes it’s important to pick the right adversary, and in Iraq we seem to have done so. A major factor in the sudden change in American fortunes has been the outpouring of popular animus against Al Qaeda and other Salafist groups, as well as (to a lesser extent) against Moktada al-Sadr’s Mahdi Army.

These groups have tried to impose Shariah law, brutalized average Iraqis to keep them in line, killed important local leaders and seized young women to marry off to their loyalists. The result has been that in the last six months Iraqis have begun to turn on the extremists and turn to the Americans for security and help. The most important and best-known example of this is in Anbar Province, which in less than six months has gone from the worst part of Iraq to the best (outside the Kurdish areas). Today the Sunni sheiks there are close to crippling Al Qaeda and its Salafist allies. Just a few months ago, American marines were fighting for every yard of Ramadi; last week we strolled down its streets without body armor.

Another surprise was how well the coalition’s new Embedded Provincial Reconstruction Teams are working. Wherever we found a fully staffed team, we also found local Iraqi leaders and businessmen cooperating with it to revive the local economy and build new political structures. Although much more needs to be done to create jobs, a new emphasis on microloans and small-scale projects was having some success where the previous aid programs often built white elephants.

In some places where we have failed to provide the civilian manpower to fill out the reconstruction teams, the surge has still allowed the military to fashion its own advisory groups from battalion, brigade and division staffs. We talked to dozens of military officers who before the war had known little about governance or business but were now ably immersing themselves in projects to provide the average Iraqi with a decent life.

Outside Baghdad, one of the biggest factors in the progress so far has been the efforts to decentralize power to the provinces and local governments. But more must be done. For example, the Iraqi National Police, which are controlled by the Interior Ministry, remain mostly a disaster. In response, many towns and neighborhoods are standing up local police forces, which generally prove more effective, less corrupt and less sectarian. The coalition has to force the warlords in Baghdad to allow the creation of neutral security forces beyond their control.

In the end, the situation in Iraq remains grave. In particular, we still face huge hurdles on the political front. Iraqi politicians of all stripes continue to dawdle and maneuver for position against one another when major steps towards reconciliation — or at least accommodation — are needed. This cannot continue indefinitely. Otherwise, once we begin to downsize, important communities may not feel committed to the status quo, and Iraqi security forces may splinter along ethnic and religious lines.

How much longer should American troops keep fighting and dying to build a new Iraq while Iraqi leaders fail to do their part? And how much longer can we wear down our forces in this mission? These haunting questions underscore the reality that the surge cannot go on forever. But there is enough good happening on the battlefields of Iraq today that Congress should plan on sustaining the effort at least into 2008.

NYT: A War We Just Might Win (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/30/opinion/30pollack.html?_r=1&oref=slogin)

Some editor must have gave an "all clear" before print without even reviewing it.  Like some of us occassionally would do in high school when we would hand in essays to teachers.  We knew the teachers didn't read them.

Allthough it is great to have this kind of opinion coming out of a very "anti-war effort" media source. Maybe the word on how the war is going is finally getting out. 

Hello Dreamweaver,

Brother, I think this article should bring up many other very worthy questions.

1 - Can we afford to lose this war?

2 - What happens if we lose this war?

3 - Will the war stop if we simply leave Iraq, or will the location of the war change to a less favorable location like our own soil?

4 - How many people have we given our word to, and how many innocents will die if we break our word?

5 - Are we gullible enough to believe that stopping this war will result in anything positive? OR, will stopping this war result in unbelievable chaos and powder kegs going off throughout the region?

6 - We must win this war or the consequences will be more than the world can bare. We can't escape this war, and it will be fought, regardless of what we want or don't want. The enemy has declared war on us over and over again, and the war will only stop when the enemy has been beaten or decides to quit. Like it or not, the war will be all over the world, or it will be in the Northern Hemisphere on our own soil. We do have some choices about the location of the main battles, and it would be really stupid to give up this choice.

7 - Aren't we smart enough to figure out what's at stake yet. Terrorists have been declaring war on us for decades, and they were completely serious. They have attacked us all over the world and they really want BADLY to attack us on our own soil. Can we look in the dictionary for "CALIPHATE" and figure out what radical Islam really wants? Why do they warn us before major attacks? It's to give us one last warning and an opportunity to convert to Islam and surrender. We will either do that or be wiped from the face of the earth. Aren't we smart enough to figure this out?

8 - Regardless of what we do, will this war ever end? PROBABLY NOT! BUT, we do have options to fight most of the battles on foreign soil and save many innocent lives. Has Israel learned anything about fighting terrorists? OBVIOUSLY NOT! Israel submitted to the demands that were for peace many times, and they didn't get any peace - just more war, and nearly all of the victims were innocents. Israel is doing the same thing now, and nothing has changed. Making agreements with terrorists is a sign of weakness and a signal for another attack.

9 - What do the terrorists really want and how can they be appeased? SIMPLE - total submission and conversion to Islam. Anything short of this MUST mean total destruction and elimination by any means necessary.

Don't we get it? What will it take for us to understand this? WINNING IS THE ONLY POSSIBLE ANSWER FOR PEACE! AND, the win must be overwhelming with a clear understanding that we are willing and able to do the same thing again and again and again. Overwhelming strength and force is the only thing that radical Islam understands - plain and simple - end of story. Radical Islam believes that diplomacy and agreements is for sissies - a sign of weakness - and a signal to attack. There is no honor or need for radical Islam to keep their word because there is no requirement for radical Islam to keep their word with INFIDELS!

If you're wondering, Christians and Jews are INFIDELS. There are ONLY two possible courses of action for us:   1)  total submission and conversion to Islam,   2) total destruction and elimination.  Number one is only an option if it's convenient at the time. Otherwise, number two is the preferred course of action.

In conclusion, there will be war whether we want it or not! We might have some options about the location and methods, but there will be war - plain and simple! Reminder - look up the word "CALIPHATE".

i am like everyone here in the sence that i ahve my own opinions so these are my opinions to some of your quetions.  i am sure some will disagree with them.

1 - Can we afford to lose this war?

 no in many ways.  we went in to give the irag people a better life but to do that we have to eliminate all traces of the old regime

2 - What happens if we lose this war?

 all those that died fighting will have died in vain/ie for nothing

3 - Will the war stop if we simply leave Iraq, or will the location of the war change to a less favorable location like our own soil?

 no the war will not stop.  it will turn into a civil war and in many ways it will probably be wore for the people there

4 - How many people have we given our word to, and how many innocents will die if we break our word?

we have given our word to iraq that we will help thm rebuild and so if we break our word thousands will suffer as a result of our breaking our promises.  we agred to rebuild and help provide things like electricity and water, all the things we take for granted

5 - Are we gullible enough to believe that stopping this war will result in anything positive? OR, will stopping this war result in unbelievable chaos and powder kegs going off throughout the region?

 yes we are gulllable enough to think that.  but it is human nature that we want our loved ones with us safe and in one piece.  even if we stop fighting there will always be some fighting there this i am sure of but i think it wil be far worse if we just pull out our troops and leave them to get on with it

6 - We must win this war or the consequences will be more than the world can bare. We can't escape this war, and it will be fought, regardless of what we want or don't want. The enemy has declared war on us over and over again, and the war will only stop when the enemy has been beaten or decides to quit. Like it or not, the war will be all over the world, or it will be in the Northern Hemisphere on our own soil. We do have some choices about the location of the main battles, and it would be really stupid to give up this choice. 
what do we gain personally if we win this war?

 america gets control of the oil fields and thus gets more power and control, so is this a war regarding power or human rights?

7 - Aren't we smart enough to figure out what's at stake yet. Terrorists have been declaring war on us for decades, and they were completely serious. They have attacked us all over the world and they really want BADLY to attack us on our own soil. Can we look in the dictionary for "CALIPHATE" and figure out what radical Islam really wants? Why do they warn us before major attacks? It's to give us one last warning and an opportunity to convert to Islam and surrender. We will either do that or be wiped from the face of the earth. Aren't we smart enough to figure this out? 

you blame islams for this terrorist attacks but by doing that you unwittingly imply that this is what their religion is all about. i have some muslims and other groups living oposite my home and they all  say these terror attacks should not happen as it is wrong to kill. i personally think the warnings are a power thing, they get a buzz from the fact that they warn us and we then go runing around trying to find  the bombs only to find they are not in the places they say at all


8 - Regardless of what we do, will this war ever end? PROBABLY NOT! BUT, we do have options to fight most of the battles on foreign soil and save many innocent lives. Has Israel learned anything about fighting terrorists? OBVIOUSLY NOT! Israel submitted to the demands that were for peace many times, and they didn't get any peace - just more war, and nearly all of the victims were innocents. Israel is doing the same thing now, and nothing has changed. Making agreements with terrorists is a sign of weakness and a signal for another attack.


if making agreements with terrorists is a sign of weekness and a signal for another attack please explain why ireland is a much calmer place?  me i personally think that it is a better place now.  while we have diffrent religions with different ideas there ill always be wars, it is a sad fact that more wars are fought  over/or as a result or religion than any other reason.  yes many victims are innocents but they are with the lord at the end and free of suffering and in a far far better place


9 - What do the terrorists really want and how can they be appeased? SIMPLE - total submission and conversion to Islam. Anything short of this MUST mean total destruction and elimination by any means necessary.

terrorists want power and control. i dont think it is about converting to islam as i have talked to people here and they are horrified about what is happening and how they are basically looked at suspiciously because of some that have done terrible things.  when it is said that a child has been killed most here cry, most are parents themselves and the grief is amazing and genuine as well

 
Don't we get it? What will it take for us to understand this? WINNING IS THE ONLY POSSIBLE ANSWER FOR PEACE! AND, the win must be overwhelming with a clear understanding that we are willing and able to do the same thing again and again and again. Overwhelming strength and force is the only thing that radical Islam understands - plain and simple - end of story. Radical Islam believes that diplomacy and agreements is for sissies - a sign of weakness - and a signal to attack. There is no honor or need for radical Islam to keep their word because there is no requirement for radical Islam to keep their word with INFIDELS!

If you're wondering, Christians and Jews are INFIDELS. There are ONLY two possible courses of action for us:   1)  total submission and conversion to Islam,   2) total destruction and elimination.  Number one is only an option if it's convenient at the time. Otherwise, number two is the preferred course of action.

In conclusion, there will be war whether we want it or not! We might have some options about the location and methods, but there will be war - plain and simple! Reminder - look up the word "CALIPHATE".
[/quote]

well i have inserted my opinions and i know that some will disagree with them.  i lost someone very dear to me at the very start of the latest gulf war in a helicoter crash but i hope my opinions show that while i dont agree with this war at all starting i do understand the reasons he went to war and i thanks god that even tho we lost him suddenly he is with our lord in a place with no suffering and  no war, only love.  i thank god that even tho we lost him it was at the start so we dont have the fears every day of whether he will be hurt or not.   i just pray that not many more familes will have to suffer the anguish of not knowing.

So far America is not assuming control over those oil fields. They are giving the control over them back to the people of that nation but it is in hopes that it will be to a people that will be more peaceful with us.



There is nothing unwitting about it. This is what their religion is all about. Yes, there are some moderates that do not adhere to all that the koran teaches but they are actually far and few between. The koran teaches them that it is perfectly okay to lie to the infidels. It also teaches them that they must first give warnings to convert or die. It is also evidenced by those that speak openly about peace and against killing and then when in their mosques call for killing and overpowering the infidels and to instill their sharia law even here in the U.S.

The warnings are much more than a "power thing" as is evidenced by the things that they have done and are doing. The American government has stopped a number of such plots already. It is only a matter of time before one of these plans of theirs fail to get discovered and will actually succeed.


The situation in Ireland was and is a totally different story. I could explain it to you but it would take several posts or more. The easiest thing to say is that both parties were of a different mindset than the islamists.

with regards to ireland i think we will have to agree to disagree as i know people who was there and did carry out killings and while i dont agree with what they did i do understand why thy did it.

as for the religion well i happen to know many who study the koran and i have not found one here in the uk yet that says it is ok to kill.  instead many have the opposit view.  perhaps they are just living ny our laws? who knows but what i do know is that these that live near to me are wonderful friendly people who hate violence in any form

again i think we will have to agree to disagree here

What the terrorists in Ireland did was in fact wrong. I am not advocating what they did in the least bit. Their mindset was totally different however in that they are not out to rule the entire world under their law as the islamists do want sharia law invoked throughout the entire world.

Hello Angel,

We will have to agree to disagree on many things, and that's fine. Regarding Islam, I would think that the specific teaching of the koran would have much to do with their so-called religion. The koran very specifically teaches the things mentioned in my post. It is so blunt that it couldn't possibly be a matter of interpretation, so they either live by the koran or they don't. Many do, and those are the ones coming for us. Many don't, and they are known as moderates. However, nothing changes what's written in the koran most specifically. There are threads already on the forum that quote these specific issues directly from the koran. So, this would not be about my personal opinion, rather about what the koran specifically teaches. It's all there in gory specifics. SO, the question becomes:  does the individual person observe and obey the koran or not?

Hello angel, here are a few thread for you.  All these are here on the forum.

These here are in - Prophecy - Current Events

My Opinion, - Kaos in the Middle East Iran, and Syria (http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=17377.0)

Hamas forced Christian professor to convert to Islam (http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=18674.0)

Pakistan Christian Converts Could Face Death Penalty For Leaving Islam (http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=17021.0)

PAKISTAN - New apostasy bill to impose death on anyone who leaves Islam (http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=16962.0)

Convert to Christianity Attacked by Muslim Relatives Tortured by Police in Egypt (http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=18529.0)

Islamic militants in Pak. set afire offices of aid agencies (http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=18058.0)

Kafeel's (Glasglow bomber) dream build housing complex where Shariat would rule (http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=18187.0)

More London bombings on way, warns Muslim (http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=17888.0)

Baghdad Christians threatened with tax, eviction (http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=17485.0)

Desecration' of Koran Story Sparks Global Islamic Fury (http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=7552.0)

holy war against infidels comes from the Islamic scripture (http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=11112.0)
Have you ever hear of Christians calling for a holy war??

Islam Demands the West Pass New Laws (http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=10134.0)

This is in General Theology

Peaceful religion isn't spelled Islam (http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=8327.0)

This should at least get you started.

Thanks Brother Bob!

As everyone knows, I love to use e-Sword as a main Bible Study method. I can't remember how long ago it was, but I got a copy of the koran that is available for reference use in e-Sword. In fact, I got multiple versions to make sure that I had accurate information. All of the versions had the same commands for obedience, and I really couldn't tell the difference in the versions. The specifics to convert or kill infidels is in all of them with exceptionally clear details. The reason is simple - we exist and shouldn't. It really doesn't matter what we do or don't do - we are infidels who must be eliminated. I must add that the CALIPHATE is not a laughing matter at all, rather the driving force behind great hosts who are determined to put it into existence at any cost. We don't understand it, but we'd better believe it is a MAJOR DRIVING FORCE that many millions are happy to die for.

We await the return of JESUS CHRIST, and Islam awaits the return of the Mahdi. You can take it to the bank that there are time tables for conquering the world, and it's supposed to be well under way before the return of the Mahdi. By the way, the return of the Mahdi is supposed to be any day, and some say that the Mahdi is already here. We don't need to understand all of this, but we had better understand that it is a life and death DRIVING FORCE for millions. It could easily turn into a kill or be killed situation around the world, and nothing could stop it. Kindness and diplomacy would be laughed at while they were killing you. It will be another sign of the end days of this Age, and Islam also views it as the end days of this age with the glorious reign and full power of Islam all over the world. The world is already divided up for their use.

However, GOD will dictate what happens and when in the end days of this Age of Grace. JESUS CHRIST Himself will fight and lead Heavenly Hosts. The final outcome is in the Holy Bible in great detail. If you guessed that JESUS CHRIST will win, you would be right. JESUS CHRIST Himself will rule and reign over the earth from the Throne of David in Jerusalem for 1,000 years. Much of the world will die, but all remaining will bow their knee to the KING OF KINGS, JESUS CHRIST, OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR FOREVER! These things are written in the Holy Bible so that we will know what the future holds. The world is going to be an ugly, violent, and evil place with rivers of blood, but JESUS CHRIST will defeat and put away evil for judgment.

Brothers and Sister, it's quite possible that these times will be soon.

Love In Christ,
Tom

The world is going to be an ugly, violent, and evil place with rivers of blood, but JESUS CHRIST will defeat and put away evil for judgment.


in many ways it already is

i look forwards to the day when we have peace and live as brothers ad sisters side by side regardless of gender colour or race

jo