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Can any of you produce a prophecy  ,promise  or passage  regarding a return to the Land  by the jews made after the completion of the return from Babylon?

Hitch

Hiya Hitch.

"...after the completion of the return from Babylon" would be about 500 something B.C., wouldn't it?


First, it's a rather technical question.  For the whole of Revelation, for instance, you can get an array of interpretations--the most dominant today of which is, you can't understand it, so why bother, and the other extreme, Oh, well it applies to the 1st Centruy Church.  And then in between a whole plethora of every garden variety of interpretation.

And the same would seem to be true of prophecies, regarding the return of Jews to a  homeland.

There are many, actually, in one form or another, throughout all the O.T., of God fulfilling his promise to Abraham, "...as the seashore...".  

You can get into technical battles as to which applies to which return.

But I have a real hard time not believing, for instance, that the 1948 return is not a fulfillment--if not specifically, at least generally.

Largely, the 1948 return was actually facilitated--or at least definitely expedited by Adolf Hitler, an extermination holocaust to beat all holocausts that ever came before  it(at least in terms of magnitude) though arguablly, because of the Zionist movement already begun in 1896, the 1948 return may have come about anyway, though I doubt as quickly nor as forcefully(no sooner did the Jews hit the beach of Gaza, than they had to literally start fighting for their lives all over again...).

Ok Symph,,then it shouldnt be hard to locate one made following the return from Babylon,,,should it?

Take care

Hitch

Dan 9:25     Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

From Nehemiah to Christ entering the city of Jerusalem are 69 weeks of 7 years each ; 483 years.

483-30 = 453 BC in 360 days prophetic years ; a deviation of 7 years or so; 445 BC gregorian would be a very educated guess...  
anyone care to look this up in history books ?

( update: already did this with Google; most hits say +/- 450 BC I dare to say the bible is more accurate :) )

Well...  this took me 10 minutes with only one line of scripture...
Anyone care to read the overview of my study on the  Rapture that took me 10 years ?  ;D

Hmm, I don't know, twobombs.  What is your conclusion?


Hitch, to get what you're asking, the prophetic verse would just about have to specify that particular return from Babylon.

Some events in the O.T. are specific.  E.g., a solar eclipse is mentioned in Assyrian tablets.  Scholars know this date from astronomical tables, as occurring on June 15th or 16th, in 763 B.C..  From this they can date accurately the reign of the Assyrian kings for about 300 years forward of 910 B.C., which then they can use to identify biblical events.  (from BAR mag., Sept/Oct 2003, p.52)

Unless you're speaking of the period of the actual writingof the particular prophecy.  If you're talking about when a prophecy was actually penned, I don't know of much agreement on O.T. prophecies of when this took place, as many estimates seem to vary by as much as 500 years either way.

It says at the end of Luke there that Jesus opened up the scriiptures, "And beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself."  (24:27)

So I'm gathering that OT prophecies have multiple applications, from specific to general, at different periods.

Actually, the 1948 "return" is the first return, since the Romans made their final desecration, in the Second Jewish Revolt, 135 A.D.--just over 1800 years ago.

Before that, the "return" as indicated, I'm guessing, in Nehemiah.

But all or most of the OT prophecies to me are so "spiritual", or dreamlike, like trying to pin down a puff of smoke.

I have no clue as to how this relates to the question.

Dreamlike,,puff of smoke..watch out Symph talk like that ---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Anyway, I think this is quite simple. Procuce a promise or anything close of a return to the Land that came after the completion of the return frm Babylon.


Take care

Hitch

OT or NT ?

'cuz when I feed you Revelation or Romans, you will know it's 50AD and onward...  When I give you OT we could end up in a has-been hasn't-been fullfilled type of scenario ....

Does the term: "fullness of the gentiles" pop up a scripture ?
"partial blindness" in the same verse would make it complete, wouldn't it ?

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Now, Hitch; does it read, Israel or does it read Jew ?
It reads :

[ Greek for 2474 ]
Israel = "he shall be a prince of God"
1) the name given to the patriarch Jacob (and borne by him in
addition to his former name)
2) the family or descendants of Israel, the nation of Israel
3) Christians, the Israel of God (Gal 6:16), for not all those who draw their bodily descent from Israel are true Israelites, i.e. are those whom God pronounces to be Israelites and has chosen to salvation

Source: http://www.blueletterbible.org
again; this didn't took more then 10 minutes.
_____________________________________________

So: the foundation of the state of Israel has been a very big marker for the Rapture to come, right ?
But Israel has been around so long, we almost forgot.

Anyone slapped a fellow servant recently ?

Repent, ppl, repent; the Day of Days is at hand, even when around you no one noticed this, this is the day to repent....

The virus seems to be a bay..

Lets try OT first then we can move on.

Hitch

Deut 5
2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3  The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
4  The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,
5  (I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to show you the word of the LORD: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount;) saying,
6  I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
7  Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
8  Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
9  Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
10  And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
11  Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
12  Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.
13  Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:
14  But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.
15  And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
16  Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
17  Thou shalt not kill.
18  Neither shalt thou commit adultery.
19  Neither shalt thou steal.
20  Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.
21  Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.
22  These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.
23  And it came to pass, when ye heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, (for the mountain did burn with fire,) that ye came near unto me, even all the heads of your tribes, and your elders;
24  And ye said, Behold, the LORD our God hath showed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth.
25  Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die.
26  For who is there of all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived?
27  Go thou near, and hear all that the LORD our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the LORD our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it.
28  And the LORD heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the LORD said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken.
29  O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

Deut 29
1  These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.

Deut 30
30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

(Was the destruction by the Roman legions a blessing or a curse??)


2  And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3  That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4  If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:[/b ]
5  And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

(Is the nation in the Land, Not being assembled as we speak??; the very word "shalt" at verse 5, is in the future tense, as in "shall possess it in the end")
 
6  And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

(verse will happen when they ALL be gathered into the land)

7  And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
8  And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.
9  And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:
10  If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
11  For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

(And it all based on the nation obey His commandments, on  which the Old Covenant was based.)


Anyone who might reject that Israel will not be gathered up to inhabit the land given to them by God, might want to ask themseves, What is the purpose of their gathering in their homeland today, the blessing to them of coming to knowledge of their Lord is to be done just as prophecied, when they He shall make himself known to them, at the time that they shall behold HIM whom they have pierced in the latter days.

Note;

Deut 4
27  And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.
28  And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
29  But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
30  When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
31  (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.
32  For ask now of the days that are past, which were before thee, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and ask from the one side of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been any such thing as this great thing is, or hath been heard like it?


Truly, it has been told to people the story of Israel, and is not believed (even among them that call themseves Gods people) that God will deal with them in the same place where He made the covenant with them, in the end times.

Eze 37
37:1  The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2  And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3  And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
4  Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5  Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6  And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
7  So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8  And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9  Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10  So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11  Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12  Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

The prophecy of the dry bones, is to the entire house of Israel, and this prohecy will be fulfilled when ALL of the bones of the house of Israel are assembled in the Land.

This prophecy is being fuillfilled TODAY, as mute testimony to Gods faithfullness.

Here is the prophecy that is rejected by those who hold to the teachings of Arian nations.



Petro

Wow, thanks, Petro.  

Um, twobombs, "...didn't took..." ??


Ahem.   ::)

Actually, it's a good question, Hitch.


I think I'll keep my eyes open, as I'm reading through scripture.


What's your point, anyway?  Or, why are you asking?

Obviouly Symph if the prophecies concerning returning to thje Land all come BEFORE a literal phyxsical return then  those promises are fulfilled.  And niether Petro nor anyone else can come up with a single prophcy of return to th eLand made AFTER the completion of the Babylonian exile.

Not that Scripture means anything to them, but it makes a witness.

Take care

Hitch

(http://www.mythes-et-legendes.net/mythes/troll/troll.jpg)

 ;D

Symph: maybe you never noticed but english is not my native language, and when one can speak read and write more then 7 languages* I sometimes have the tendency to translate my native(Dutch) or close-to-native language (Afrikaans) to the other language....

My sincere apology :)

__________
* Dutch, German, English, French, Afrikaans, Spanish and Japanese

Wow you write better english then i do and it is my only language  :-[

Wow, twobombs, seven!!

No need to apologise.  I was just kidding you a little bit.  Couldn't resist.

I only speak one language, and I have enough trouble with it!

Are your multilingual skills work-connected?  I was just wondering.  

Last time I heard of someone speaking that many, was a professor one of the posters here had--"Broken", awhile back.  I think he was a professor in Egyptology?  Can't remember.

My language skills are not work related, it comes with the territory; Europe.

Japanese excluded though; that's a hobby of mine :) A lot of Dutch people speak 4 or more languages.

allinall,

The pic, at reply #14, is funny, where do you get these, anyhow??


Do you know where I could get sounds, such as animal type, like lions roaring, dogs barking, and screams among other scary sounds, such??

Petro

Zechariah 14;9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth

Lamentations 4;22 The punishment of your iniquity is finished daughter of Zion; he will no more carry you away into captivity. He will visit your iniquity, daughter of Edom; he will discover your sins - This is all for the future

Revelations 20:2  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3  And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7  And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
 
1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Revelation 12:5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations
with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne."

Revelation 19:15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the
nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine
press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
Isaiah 65:25  The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent’s meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Zec 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Isaiah 14:1 When Yahweh will have compassion on Jacob and again choose Israel, and settle them in their own land, then strangers will join them and attach themselves to the house of Jacob...

Isaiah 34:16,17 Seek from the book of Yahweh, and read: Not one of these will be missing; none will lack its mate. For His mouth has commanded, and His Spirit has gathered them. He has cast the lot for them, and His hand has divided it to them by line. They shall possess it forever; from generation to generation they will dwell in it.

Isaiah 35:10 And the ransomed of Yahweh will return and come with joyful shouting to Zion, with everlasting joy upon their heads. They will find gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing will flee away.

Isaiah 65:9,10 I will bring forth offspring from Jacob, and an heir of My mountain from Judah; even My chosen ones shall inherit it, and my servants will dwell there. Sharon will be a pasture land for flocks, and the valley of Achor a resting place for herds, for My people who seek Me.

Jer 3:18 In those days the house of Judah will walk with the house of Israel, and they will come together from the land of the north to the land that I gave your fathers as an inheritance.

Jer 16:14,15 Therefore behold, days are coming, declares Yahweh, when it will no longer be said, 'as Yahweh lives, who brought up the sons of Israel out of the land of Egypt,' but, 'as Yahweh lives, who brought up the sons of Israel from the land of the north and from all the countries where He had banished them.' For I will restore them to their own land which I gave to their fathers.

Jer 29:14 I will be found of you, declares Yahweh, and I will restore your fortunes and will gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, declares Yahweh, and I will bring you back to the place from where I sent you into exile.

Jer 30:2,3 Thus says Yahweh, the Elohim of Israel, 'write all the words which I have spoken to you in a book. For behold, days are coming,' declares Yahweh, 'when I will restore the fortunes of My people Israel and Judah.' Yahweh says, 'I will also bring them back to the land that I gave to their forefathers and they shall possess it.'

Jer 31:16-18 Restrain your voice from weeping and your eyes from tears; for your work will be rewarded, declares Yahweh, and they will return from the land of the enemy. There is hope for your future, declares Yahweh, and your children will return to their own territory. I have surely heard Ephraim grieving, 'You have chastised me, and I was chastised, like an untrained calf; bring me back that I may be restored, for You are Yahweh my Elohim...

Jer 50:19 And I will bring Israel back to his pasture and he will graze on Carmel and Bashan, and his desire will be satisfied in the hill country of Ephraim and Gilead.

Ezek 11:17 Therefore say, 'thus says Yahweh Elohim, "I will gather you from the peoples and assemble you out of the countries among which you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel."

Ezek 20:41,42 As a soothing aroma I will accept you when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you from the lands where you are scattered; and I will prove Myself holy among you in the sight of the nations. And you will know that I am Yahweh when I bring you into the land of Israel, into the land which I swore to give to your forefathers.

Ezek 34:13-15 I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries and bring them to their own land; and I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the streams, and in the inhabited places of the land. I will feed the in a good pasture, and their grazing ground will be on the mountain heights of Israel. There they will lie down on good grazing ground and feed in rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. I will feed My flock and will lead them to rest, declares Yahweh.

Ezek 36:8-12 But you, O mountains of Israel, you will put forth your branches ands bear your fruit for My people Israel; for they will soon come. For behold, I am for you, and I will turn to you, and your will be cultivated and sown. I will multiply men on you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities will be inhabited and the waste places will be rebuilt. I will multiply on you man and beast; and they will increase and be fruitful; and I will cause you to be inhabited as you were formerly and will treat you better than at the first. Thus you will know that I am Yahweh. Yes, I will cause men - My people Israel - to walk on you and possess you, so that you will become their inheritance and never again bereave them of children.

Ezek 36:24-28 For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your Elohim.

Ezek 38:8 After many days you will be summoned; in the latter years you will come into the land that is restored from the sword, whose inhabitants have been gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel which had been a continual waste; but its people were brought out from the nations, and they are living securely, all of them.

Amos 9:14,15 Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel, and they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them; they will also plant vineyards and drink their wine, and make gardens and eat their fruit. I will also plant them on their land, and they will not again be rooted out from their land which I have given them, says Yahweh your Elohim.

Micah 4:6-8 In that day, declares Yahweh, I will assemble the lame and gather the outcasts, Even those whom I have afflicted. I will make the lame a remnant and the outcasts a strong nation. And Yahweh will reign over them in Mount Zion from now on and forever. As for you, tower of the flock, hill of the daughter of Zion, to you will come - even the former dominion will come, the kingdom of the daughter of Jerusalem.

Zeph 2:7 And the coast will be for the remnant of the house of Judah, they will pasture on it. In the houses of Ashkelon they will lie down at evening; for Yahweh their Elohim will care for them and restore their fortune.

Zech 2:11,12 Many nations will join themselves to Yahweh in that day and will become My people. Then I will dwell in their midst, and you will know that Yahweh of hosts has sent Me to you. Yahweh will possess Judah as His portion in the holy land and will again choose Jerusalem.

Zech 8:7,8 Thus says Yahweh of hosts, behold I am going to save My people from the land of the east and from the land of the west; and I will bring them back and they will live in the midst of Jerusalem; and they shall be My people, and I will be their Elohim in truth and righteousness.
Zech.9:13  When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man. 14  And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.

Zech 10:8-10 I will strengthen the house of Judah, and will save the house of Joseph, and I will bring them back, because I have had compassion on them; and they will be as though I had not rejected them, for I am Yahweh their Elohim and I will answer them. Ephraim will be like a mighty man, and their heart will be glad as if from wine; indeed, their children will see it and be glad, their heart will rejoice in Yahweh. I will whistle for them to gather them together, for I have redeemed them; and they will be as numerous as they were before. When I scatter them among the peoples, they will remember Me in far countries, and they with their children will live and come back. I will bring them back from the land of Egypt and gather them from Assyria; and I will bring them into the land of Gilead and Lebanon until no room can be found for them.