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What is first? Salvation or Faith? I am not a greek scholar. The exegesis that follows is taken from: http://www.crisispub.com/calvinism/
This is food for thought.

Calvinists Claim We Believe After
We Are Saved


The Westminster Confession of Faith states:

     “This effectual call is of God’s free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man; who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.”[1]  Note: passive…until…quickened; thus all conditions of salvation are done away.

Loraine Boettner says:

      “A man is not saved because he believes in Christ; he believes in Christ because he is saved.”[2]

Arthur W. Pink says:

      “A man is not regenerated because he has first believed in Christ, but he believes in Christ because he has been regenerated.”[3]

R. C. Sproul says:

     “We do not believe in order to be born again; we are born again that we may believe.”[4]

Now that the Calvinist has altered or reversed the Biblical order of salvation, believe then Christian experience, to Christian experience then believe, the argument of tense and mood in salvation terminology in the Greek New Testament has lost its force, and so, meaningless;[5] meaningless, because according to the system, the elect one is irresistibly saved apart from condition whatsoever, THEN the saved one believes, etc. And so, if believe, or faith is after salvation, the argument about tense and mood of salvation terms is irrelevant. But we will show that the Scriptural order of Christian experience is to believe then salvation and the utter relevance of tense, mode, etc.

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Scriptures Say We Believe In Order To Be Saved!            

Now that we have heard the Calvinists on the subject, let us hear the Word of God. We believe to be saved? Or we believe because we are saved? Let the Scriptures answer, not some creed or theologian. Mark 16:16 states the following:

 “The one having believed (pisteusas)[6] and having been baptized will be saved (sōthēsetai);[7] but the one not having believed (apistēsas) will be condemned to eternal death (katakpithēsetai)…o` pisteu,saj kai. baptisqei.j swqh,setai( o` de. avpisth,saj katakriqh,setaiÅ”

Time elements cannot be denied. Tense affirms both time and kind of action.[8] Further, pisteusas (will be saved) and apistēsas (not having believed) are words of the same tense, etc. Both are aorists, both are active; in both the person did something, one to be saved, and the other to be lost. Whether in belief or unbelief, the intellect, volition, and will are engaged. Likewise, the results of these attitudes affect the total person and destiny itself. The results of engagement are sōthēsetai (will be saved) and katakpithēsetai (will be condemned to eternal death). These terms are of exactly the same grammatical construction. Both are verbs in the active voice; both are revelatory of destiny based on the action of the person. Both reveal the response of God based on the action of the person. God never saved the believer apart from his action anymore than He damned the unbeliever apart from his action of unbelief. God saves because of action in which the will is engaged; God condemns eternally because of action in which the will is engaged. Thus, neither the saved nor the lost were irresistibly consigned to their state from eternity by God. Both classes, the saved and lost, are thus because of the manner in which they responded to God.

The Scriptures again speak. In Acts 16:30-31 we have an account that evolved out of the miraculous:

 “And after he led them outside, he said: Sirs, what is it necessary for me to do (poiein) in order that I might be saved (sōthō)?…kai. proagagw.n auvtou.j e;xw e;fh( Ku,rioi( ti, me dei/ poiei/n i[na swqw/È

      “and they said, You believe right now (pisteuson) on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved (sōthēsē), and your house…oi` de. ei=pan( Pi,steuson evpi. to.n ku,rion VIhsou/n Cristo,n kai. swqh,sh| su. kai. o` oi=ko,j souÅ”

Note that to be saved certain conditions had to be met:

He Must Do Something:

He did something to be saved: “What is it necessary for me to do…?”

He Must Believe First:

It was necessary to believe. Believe is an aorist imperative, the meaning for which see § 19 on Aorist Imperative, page 333 and § 14 on the Imperative Mood, page 332 in this book. [Ref. to coming book]

To Be Saved Is in the Future, Passive:
Now that he has submitted to the conditions to do, to believe, he is saved by the power of God. This jailer could not save himself, but he could and did meet the conditions so God could save him. While he could not save himself, it cannot be said that he was totally depraved to the point of inability to respond to his Creator. He acted, he believed, he was saved by God alone; but neither the jailer nor God were totally alone in this salvation experience. It was a synergistic work—man, doing what only he can do, meeting the conditions, and God doing what only He can do.

Rom 10:9 reads as follows:

 “Because if you may confess (homologēsēs)[9] the Lord Jesus with your mouth and you may believe (pisteusēs)[10] in your heart that the God raised Him out of death, you will be saved (sōthēsē)[11] …o[ti eva.n o`mologh,sh|j evn tw/| sto,mati, sou ku,rion VIhsou/n kai. pisteu,sh|j evn th/| kardi,a| sou o[ti o` qeo.j auvto.n h;geiren evk nekrw/n( swqh,sh|\”

Irresistible grace cannot be brought into harmony with this text. To believe is shown as conditional; to be saved is shown as after we believe. Thus the nature of salvation is affirmed by the Greek text; accordingly, irresistible grace stands refuted.

Romans 10:13, discussed on page 164, shows the necessity of calling on the name of the Lord after which the one who calls may be saved.    

On the ground of the Greek text, it has been affirmed that one must first believe to be saved; and that one is active with respect to salvation, not passive in terms of faith or believing.

That We Believed To Be Saved Stands Affirmed

The Scriptures declare that sinners must believe in order to be saved; hence, the necessity to exegete the Word of God as it stands in a given text, bringing out the meaning of the word with all its grammatical and syntactical elements—mood, tense, etc.

Any doctrine that removes the grammatical aspects of the inspired Word of God is a strange doctrine. Mood and tense are vital and relevant to truth and understanding. 12] Irresistible grace is a clever teaching that makes all appeal to the grammatical elements of salvation terminology redundant, utterly. We believe to be saved, or we believe because we are saved? Let the Scriptures answer, not some creed or theologian!

But before we answer, it is necessary to say that one believes in order to be saved, and we continue to believe through our Christian pilgrimage. The Scriptures teach nothing whatsoever of a moment of faith that secures one for all eternity. The attitude of faith and obedience is vital, utterly, to initial salvation and must abide throughout Christian experience.[13]

 In my affirmation of the truth, I have not found it necessary to empty the Word of God of its inspired grammatical essence with its summons to act, to continue, etc., and inoculate it with inability that awaits irresistibility, as has the Calvinist.

The following is footnotes to the above article:
 
[1] X. II. Emphasis added.

[2] Loraine Boettner, Predestination, p. 101; cited by Laurence M. Vance, The Other Side of Calvinism, p. 521.

[3] Arthur W. Pink, The Holy Spirit, Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1978, p. 55; cited by Ibid., p. 521.

[4] R. C. Sproul, Chosen by God, p. 73; cited by Ibid., p. 521.

[5] With this reversed order of salvation, the Calvinist will say of what value are the tenses and moods, etc.? But did not God inspire the Greek New Testament for a reason? We believe He did; hence, the necessity of all grammatical and syntactical elements.

[6] Pisteusas is an aorist tense participle, and active voice. The tense shows that belief was in past time and as a result of faith will be saved; this Calvinists deny, but see Excursus: On the Aorist Tense, page 200. Note also that pisteusas is in the active voice; thus the one believing is acting, doing something.
[7] Sōthēsetai is a verb in the future tense, and passive voice. We note: 1) after having believed, that one will be saved—so believed then saved; further, having believed is in the active voice, but will be saved is in the passive voice. To be saved one must both do something (actively believe) and have something done to him (be passively acted upon).

[8] It is obvious that one aspect in the verbal system may be emphasized over another, but some grammarians minimize time far too much. See § 17, page 234.

[9] Homologēsēs, from homologeō, means basically the same speech, to say the same thing; agreement, etc. Note that homologēsēs is an aorist subjunctive, so potential and not irresistible.

[10] Pisteusēs, from pisteuō, is an aorist subjunctive and potential in nature and can be neither irresistible nor after salvation as claimed by Five Point Calvinists.

[11] Sōthēsē, from sōzō, is a future tense, passive voice  verb, the state of which will be a future realization contingent on  homologēsēs (may confess) and pisteusēs (may believe).

[12] 1 Tim 4:1.

[13] See Dana and Mantey, and Jerome H. Smith, page 283.

     

 

OK, all you greek scholars in either of the two camps, fire away!

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.(Rom 10:17)

aw

asaph

I am not a greek scholar, and neither a calvinst.

While, I lean toward the calvinst position more so, than any other it  is because there are more truths taught in the calvinistic position than the armenian, and I see that although both hold to some truths, neither ultimately have a corner on the teachings of the truths of scripture.

What comes first, is hearing Gods Word followed by faith(Rom 10:17) in Gods word, preached by Jesus (Lk 4:18-19) in obedience to Gods command to Him, and fulfillment of Exodus 18:18-19.

And FAITH in Gods Word is what secures everlasting life, according to Jesus, notice His words;

Jhn 5
24  He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The natural mand cannot know, receive neither understand the things of God (1 Cor 2:14), not to mention they are not at all interested in seeking God, and none do right, and none care(Rom 3:10-12).

No one can know the God the Son nor God the Father.
It is God who is revealed to man, by the Son, and the Son is revealed by God, but most importanly the Son reveals the Father to whom so ever He wills (Mat 11:27)

And as I have stated many times before, which doesn't sit well, with you, and others, there is nothing man can do towards coming to know (Lk 10:22), understand (1 Cor 2:14), believe, God the Son, unless it is given (Phil1:29) by God the Father,

In fact man cannot even repent unless it be granted to him, of God.(2 Tim 2:25)

Actually, no man can know what is freely given to Him of God, less that man possess the Spirit of God. (1 Cor 2:12)

So it really doesn't matter what men may teach in this world, unless, men believe and preach and teach Gods Word, no man can be saved, because man must believe the truth of the Word of God, and God has chosen the foolishness of preaching this truth to save man.(1 Cor 1:21)

So, everything else is nothing but opinions of men, and unless they agree with Gods Word they are worthless, in as much as the things of God are concerned.

If a man places his trust in the truth of Gods Word, and has a desire to obey and repent, God who sees the heart, makes His will to work in accomplishing, what He has ordained from the begining and this is what it is;

He that believeth and is baptized (by the Son with the Holy Ghost) shall be saved;  (Mk 16:16)

One must believe the truth, only then can he received the free gift of FAITH through GRACE to believe in JESUS whom he could never believe in before.

If Jhn 5:24, is true, then men are saved when they believed  the very words of God spoken by Jesus,  

And they believed (in the verse above)it is  because God who looks at the heart, knows who has trusted His Word and desires to obey (to repent) gave them to hearing to hear and faith to believe HIS word spoken by Jesus.  

Whether any man has this desire or not, it still will not change the fact that Jesus died for that mans sins, the blood is counted towards his sins, he simply must trust and obey.

Not because they were saved first, to believe after...

Although there is many dynamics working here at once, the order of it is known to God, if a man is Baptized with the Holy Ghost, it is becuase God has accomplished His  Will in that individual. I would not so foolish as to say, salvation occurs fiorst, it is possible all occur at once, but it may take many years to for God the Spirit to bring him to this point.

This is a great truth, is revealed to us who have been given the spirit so that we might know what has been given to us freely of God.

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Blessings,
Petro

Petro,
Thanks for your response. I actually agree with your statement:

 One must believe the truth, only then can he receive the free gift of FAITH through GRACE to believe in JESUS whom he could never believe in before.

That is very accurate. Truth is like Wisdom crying in the streets to the son's of men.

Pro 8:1  Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
Pro 8:2  She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
Pro 8:3  She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
Pro 8:4  Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.

I know that before I even knew of Jesus, God was drawing me. The Spirit of Truth caused me to cry out to God for Truth. I cried then in a matter of a few years when Jesus was presented to me I believed in Him as my Savior. Others are drawn by God by His Spirit but resist Him. Here is where you will disagree but I do not believe in "irresistible grace".

Act 7:51  Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

So do you see why I believe that grace can be resisted?

Anyway, thanks for your post.

asaph

asaph,

I say Amen to that, and I see that God made a good choice. And I thnak Him for choosing me ,also.


"Irrsistible grace" is a word used by men to define something, in order to be defined it should be examined carefully in the light of the whole word of God.

I agree with the verse you have posted, even the saved seem to be able to resisit the leading of the Holy Spirit.
 
Act 7:51  Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Although,

The context of verse 51, in its passage should be noticed and that is that Stephen is speaking to those who were circumcised in the flesh but not in their hearts.


Grace is found and tied to Faith, without Faith, there can be no Grace on the one hand.

On the other Faith is founded and tied to an object, if it is not Jesus the Living Word of God,

it is impossible to please God, for every man that comes to God must BELIEVE THAT HE IS, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (Heb 11:6)

A man must trust Him, and not in anything one might do for himself, that is the way it is..

Amen, and God Bless You,

Petro

  I have read some responses which seem to be very diligent,
but let us remember that Scripture, in its perfection, is without contradiction. Therefore, to those who say that faith preceeds grace, I must ask your explanation for--

  Acts 13:48 "As many as were ordained to eternal life believed."
  What sequence do you see here? Which is first--being ordained to eternal life, or believing? What does "ordained"
mean? Can we understand Scripture if we don't understand the Bible's use of and the meanings of its words?
  When did this ordination take place?
  In what ways does the New Testament use the word "saved?" Do you believe that being saved applies only to the "moment of salvation,?" or does "shall be saved" applies to
the entire work of God on behalf of those who love Him?
  Very important question: why does the Bible refer to Jesus as the "everlasting Father?" Come to understand that fully and it will lay many false doctrines to rest.

  Petro--notice your reply #7. Stephen said they were uncircumcised in "heart" and "ears"

Text without context is pretext.

Act 13:46  Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
Act 13:47  For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
Act 13:48  And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Verse 46 says the Jews put the word of God from them. They thrust it away. In so doing they judged themselves unworthy of eternal life. In their minds they thought they were worthy of eternal life and that they were doing God a service by persecuting Paul. Had they received the Word they would not have been unworthy, they would have been declared worthy by God. Willful disobedience was in play here. They were not preordained to damnation, they simply rejected the opportunity to receive eternal life. The Gentiles however, in this particular city, when they heard they believed. Ordained is an unfortunate translation. Better is "disposed" not ordained. Having heard they became disposed to eternal life. Check out Stongs on this. As many as were "disposed" to eternal life believed. 1 Cor.16:15 uses the word addicted for the same greek word.

1Co 16:15  I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

This means they were disposed to the ministry.

There is no reason to force the word in acts 13:48 to mean predetermined ordination to eternal life.

God does work is men's hearts to make them disposed to receive salvation. But many resist the Holy Spirit as the Jews did in spite of God's work.

asaph

  Asaph--A good response! Now go to Psalm 65:4--"Blessed is the man whom you choose and CAUSE (caps mine) to approach unto thee that he may dwell in thy courts." In both verses, we see God working effectually prior to any move by man. In Ps 65:4 we see election, which was "before the foundation of the world," Eph. 1:4 and then we see the effectual call wherein He CAUSES His chosen to approach unto Him.
  Again, anyone who truly understands the full meaning of Christ being "the everlasting Father, the Prince of peace" will never again have to be in doubt about the truth of this matter.              

Calvin is so misquoted and misused it seems incredible that so many are willing to accept the LEAST evidence concenig him or who do not goto the SCRIPTURES themselves and with Gods Help see if it be true or not.

Now according to what FAITH      "IS"  as laid out in the scriptures in Hebrews and THAT is what faith IS.
Then it is clear that ALL men HAVE faith wether saved or unsaved and EXCERSISE IT every day of thier lives according to those principles so laid out in scripture.
Now THAT faith is a GIFT from God and all men ina MEASURE profit from it.
Yet men have THIER faith in the WRONG things and though they recive TEMPORY profit they are ROBBED.
It is when men hear the Word of God and UNDERSTAND the message that that faith becomes 'SAVING' faith for now it is directed  and PUT IN GOD.
Now we know itis not just HEARING the Word of God fro the scriptures show that that is not enough.
Butit is when we UDERSTAND what bGod issaying that faith IN God is BORN as it were.

For what IS faith?
But the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for and the EVIDENCE of things unseen."
When I stand at a bus stop inLondon.
LOndon transport'S word and promise is that the No 24 bus will take me fromVictoria in sth central londonto HAMPSTEAD in nrth London.
and IF is stand at the aprop\iate bus stop there I will get the bus.
UNDERDSTANDING the message I do as the 'word' says and ACT in FAITH (onthe Word) BELIEVEING and stand at the bus stop.
By so doing it gives SUBSTANCE to my faith(my action) and is the EVIDENCE of thinsg unseen(THE BUS!) and in due time that which was once INVISIBLE comes into manifesttion.
and my faith is rewarded.
And there are a myriad other examples  based on what faith IS THAT CAN BE USED and confirm it.
When I work.
I do so on the PROMISE that i will get PAID at the end of the week/month.
and so work(the SUBSTANCE) and the EVIDENCE of that which is yet invisible (MY WAGES!_)
Therefore it is clear that you CANNOT be saved unless you BELEIVE!
For if you do NOT believe God how CAN He save you!?
More without FAITH it is IMPOSIBLE to please God"
Therforeif you excersise NOT your faith in God HOW can you please God?
More how can you excersise faith in that which you do not in ANY measure understand?
and how then can you ACT "BELIEVEING"?
fOR IFYOU DO NOTUNDERSTAND you cannot believe and if you do not believe how can you excersise any faith!?
Therefore "in faith believeing" we ACT!
and our FAITH is rewarded. and that which was WROUGHT on calavry as yet unseen becomes as we progresively walk in the light more and morte MANIFEST in our lives and so PROVES notonly theTRUTH of it but we are WITNESSES of the truth and the RESURECTION of the LORD jESUS CHRIST.
For if it were not true not only wouldit not work but we would be presumbing on God beleieving Him for soemthign that He has not promsied or said.

It is STILL God first.
Forif He had NOT of called(SPOKEN) then we would not live.
Nor would we have LIGHT nor would wehave ANY CHOICE other than our own miserable sinfull state.
But when the LIGHT came to those "who sat in darkness"Then those who love the light MORE than the darkness turn to the light.
You see it is not we NATURALY  just LOVE the light though we do may do so who HUNGER FOR IT.BUT DO NOT HAVE OR KNOW IT
Nor does it say we hate darkness..
those who loved the darkness MORE than the light!who are condemned.
But they who RESPOND to the light FORSAKING the darkness which they prior loved.
Find peace with God and the salvation of thier souls.

Therefore it is ALL of God and without His call we would be DEAD even as LAZERUS was.
But to them that have ears to hear let him hear. and those who do then let him repsond.
For we" are DEAD in trespases and in sin" without Christ.
 But now the light has come we have no more excuse.
Nor should we have felowhsip with the dead but walk in then light aS He is in the light and then wehave feloship one with the other and the blood of JESUS CHRIST cleanses usfrom all sin"




 

You do not sound like a Calvinist but a Biblicist. Stay in the Word and the Spirit brother.

asaph

  Many things which are said to be Calvinistic are actually
the teachings of Scripture. Not only so, but there are teachings of Scripture which were systematized by theologians
before Calvin, such as Augustine and Luther. Even earlier, the Lord Jesus and the Apostle Paul taught things which were later systematized and are now called by some "Calvinism." Even before then, however, the law and the prophets clearly showed forth the glory of God in His sovereignty.
  Arminianism is a late comer to the theological debate yet
those who follow Arminius believe apriori that Arminiunism is right and that they are therefore justified in just following the Arminian doctrines without making a sincere investigation of their own. Again, if men would just realize the meaning of Christ being termed "the everlasting Father," they would be instantly freed from the God-dishonoring heresies of Arminianism. Even if they understood the meaning of God
passing between the pieces of the covenant offering alone while Abraham slept (Gen. 15), they would be ready to glory
in God alone.

Actually Armenianism, is a revised form of Peligianism, both were rejected at synods, and found to be heretical, but this doesn't bother those that teach the position.

The most glaring inconsistency of those who hold to the doctrines of Arminius and his followers is that of verbally claiming the blood of Christ, but denying its efficacy in as much as it covers ALL sin.

If the blood of Jesus did not pay for all the sins of His people, if there is one sin, Jesus did not pay for by His shed blood, for any individual then that individual not only has never been saved by the blood of Jesus, but that individual never has become nor is one of HIS, inspite of what that individual says or may claim.

Because if its true;  that HE died for all, then ALL were dead, And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
(2 Cor 5:14-15)

So them that have NOTdied to self, according to these scriptures, do not belong to Him.

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.  (Jhn 11:26)

The Arminius doctrines, contradict the saviors Words.

How does this square up, to ones confession, he believes the Savior??


Blessings,
Petro

  Petro--You are right about pelagianism. It is one of the most wicked and deceiving of heresies. Many theologians today recognise that the Arminian heresy of today recognise is
semi-pelagianism. It is clear from studying the two forms of doctrine that they intertwine and overlap on another. No doubt that is why Pelagianism came to you mind at the mention of Arminianism.

Both camps call each other harry ticks, so who's right?

I like what Jesus said in John's Gospel:
Ch.9
39   And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
40   And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
41   Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

I wonder who has all the answers?

Well, I'm just jumping in at this point because I don't have time to real the whole thread right now, but actually, it isn't that we are saved before we believe, although in a sense we are. Let me explain. God predestined all things; He predestined our salvation. In that sense, we're saved, but it is not manifest yet. God has attained it for us, but we have not attained it. We have to reach out and grasp what God has predestined and attained for us.

Verses:

Romans 8:29-30

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Philippians 3:10-14    

3:10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

3:11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

3:12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

3:13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

3:14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

One thing is for sure, Gods Word is right...and I don't mean how or who interprets it either..


Blessings,
Petro

Petro

 The Word of God does.

1 Cor 2
12  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.


Blessings,

Petro

whitehorse,

Good thought.

God knew us in Christ, since before the foundation of the world.

God Bless,

Petro

Whitehorse,
I understand where you are coming from. You said-

Well, I'm just jumping in at this point because I don't have time to real the whole thread right now, but actually, it isn't that we are saved before we believe, although in a sense we are. Let me explain. God predestined all things; He predestined our salvation. In that sense, we're saved, but it is not manifest yet. God has attained it for us, but we have not attained it. We have to reach out and grasp what God has predestined and attained for us.

Verses:

Romans 8:29-30

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Actually God did not predestine us to salvation but to be conformed to the image of His Son. There is a difference. Salvation is for "whosoever will". From that point we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. This prdestination is conditioned on our continuing in the Faith. I need not list the many scriptures confirming this, but...
Col 1
 21   And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22   In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23   If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

1 Corinthians 15
1   Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2   By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Rom 9
30   What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31   But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32   Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33   As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Why did the Israelites not attain to righteousness? This was a perfect opportunity for Paul. He could have answered: Because they were not predestined.  However, his answer was not that but rather: Because they sought it not by faith.

Chapter nine proves one thing: that God is sovereign. God chose faith in Christ as the means to salvation. He did not choose natural descent or works. The Jews wanted it to be natural descent and works and so rejected faith in Jesus, thereby rejecting the soverignty of God. God chooses the method of salvation, not man.

Election is the result of man putting his faith in Jesus Christ, not the means to salvation. Jesus is the elect and we corporately in Him are elect by faith .

asaph

asaph,

Water Baptism is not by faith...

Petro

  Asaph--you refer to both sides calling one another hairy ticks and then as, "so who is right?" That, friend, you already know. The Bible--the Bible alone settles the issue. That is thew reason that the watchword of the Reformers is "Sola Scriptura." Another thing which the reformation faith (some call it Calvinism) makes clear is that ALL GLORY belongs to God. So another phrase is precious to us: "Soli Deo Gloria."
  The thing about Arminianism which is most offensive to us is that Arminian doctrine would deprive God of much glory which is His alone.

It's not? Then is it sin to you? For whatever is not of faith is sin. Or is it works to you? Why obey anything Jesus says? It is all by faith. "From faith to faith" is what we are told. The just shall live by faith.
I hope people realize that obedience to Christ is a faith matter. The outcome of that obedience is in His hands. It is not for us to sit and judge Jesus and dissect His words to the point of rendering them empty of all meaning, but it is for us to enjoy Him in obedience.
John 15
11   These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

14   Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Is obeying Jesus of faith or not?

asaph

It is not works to me, since I put no confidence in it.
However, in spite what you say, out of one side of your mouth, you argue as though it is the means to salvation with your otherside.
It has become a work, which when added to faith produces what you deisrem it to.

But you say, faith to works, since it is necessary to be baptized in water, and according to your testimonial, without the water, there is no Holy Spirit which can be received.

I say AMEN to this, knowing that what you define  obedience as the work you perform, not the work God performs.  You see, our obedience by faith produces the work of God which in us, is justification by faith, in your case, your obedience produces your work, which in turn according to you produced your justification in your eyes.

It is most definitely true, many deceive themselves, so much so, that in that day, they would even claim to Jesus;  

"Did not we do these things in your name.

"Yet the Lord will ansdwer; Get away from me you that worketh iniquity."


Obeying Jesus, IS,..............

but,  water baptism is not, his command to the eleven was for them to go into the world and Baptize, are you one of the eleven??

You would claim that,  to disobey Jesus, would bring on wrath, and be a cause for being disowned (losing salvation) as a child of God (Heb 6:4-6), while the scriptures are clear that, those that are of the same faith as Abraham, these are the children of God.

The scriptures clearly to tell us, that Abraham believed God, and his FAITH was counted for his righteousness, and was justified, when he was tested of God, Abraham believed God, this is why he obeyed HIM.

Water Baptism is at the very least, a commandment given to them that are saved by FAITH, not to the unsaved. To be obeyed by those who have received the Holy Spirit and through HIS power Gods children are able to obey.

You make it a command by Jesus, that Jesus never gave to baptize those that do not believe, promising them the Holy Spirit if they are..  So who is disputing the very words of Jesus?

Once again, so you will understand your error;  The command to Baptize was given to the 11, to baptize those who have been saved (believed),they believed because God gave them the gift of FAITH through GRACE, the Holy Spirit sealing them into the body of Christ (we call this the Baptism with the Holy Spirit); these were the ones that are to be water baptized.

This command was not given, to them who have not believed GOD.

There is quite a difference believing the Words Jesus spoke of His Father this must come first, then one can hear an obey the Words of the Son, because the Father is revealed by the Son and the Son by the Father.

Rom 14
23  And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.


Blessings,
Petro