Print Page - High Noon

I'm responsible for the care and ongoing integrity of a rural property and its elderly owner.

Under Current Events here, on a thread entitled, "Terrible Thought"(back on about page 4, Aug. 15), I presented the same question in current terms, that is basically asked in the Gary Cooper western, High Noon.

That is, if your town is being forced down a wrong road, should you say something--regardless?

Much of the movie builds climaticly, as Cooper, the marshal, increasingly realizes that, as he goes about town to elicit help in preparing for the return of four gun-slinging thugs, that everyone is only self-absorbed--his own deputy abandons him. Only a 14-year old kid volunteers. Towards the ultimate showdown, everyone has run and hidden. He goes to the church, everyone there shrinks. He goes to his old friends, they obviscate, or make excuses, or run and hide. Even his wife, prepares to abandon him. And as she's leaving the one hotel, the deskclerk says satisfactorly, "It's time he was gettin' his comuppance."--right to his wife.

For some years I have been writing occasional letters to the editor here in a rural US town, many of a moral tone, some specific about the gay thing--I was in disbelief when Clinton announced his policy about it in the military, in 1993. Virtually no one here said anything. ONe fellow who did, was domesticated away by family duties, or reponsiblities as a public servant, and no longer said anything. He no longer even lives here.

I talked with the sheriff here; he condemned it vociferously--but that was only in the office.

Likewise one of the largest employers in the area, he likewise condemned it, to me, directly. But never publiclly, in the newspaper, or any other way that I know of--at least for the community's sake, yet he is in the newspaper occasionally.

The gay movement is here. I know so, because a church is, apparently, teaching that Jesus Christ was a homosexual. I know that people are aware of this, at least some.

But despite that, I also know that for some years now, it has been already in the regular media. I know that people are aware of what is happening. And family members are going that way.

So I'm thinking I need to call a spade a spade--publicly--not just in a church somewhere. Either with a published pamphlet using that intro from the Terrible Thought thread referred to above, or a separate one I have prepared as my most recent Letter to the Editor, which was refused(the newspaper office will apparently have nothing to do with me anymore... I used to work there. And the owner and editor there I know. Just like in High Noon. Even the town judge, there in High Noon, abandons his own marshal(Cooper)).

But, if I do this, via pamphlets, handing them out, or posting them, or some other method, I can already tell from many people, just by their silence--some of whom I've know since I was a kid--classmates, teachers, "friends", that I will pay the price. It may mean even not being allowed in the grocery stores. I could be accused of immflamatory speech, etc.(?) (Maybe bep here might know of what possible citations might be involved...).

But most importantly, it will mean the possible failure or forfeiture of the property and elderly person I am responsible for. It will mean when I call for help on the property--the furnace man, the plumber, the painters, etc., they will no longer come. The bank will certainly ask me to close the account--they won't want me coming in. I have already been refused from taking night classes at the public school(computers), and refused from participating in public services that they offer. (Yes, that's illegal, at least w/o a court injunction against me, but it would mean challenging, which would probably mean getting a lawyer... and creating an unnecessary stink...and suing my own high school, a rather stupid thing to do). The library is always helpful, but even there, I am "tolerated". .

Jesus on the cross gave responsiblity for care of his mother there to that disciple. And there are many other scriptures supporting this, that we care for our own.

Alternatively, if I love even my own wife, or parents, or children, more than Jesus, I cannot be his disciple.

Oklahoma Howdy to Symphony,

You have posed a very complicated scenario. I'll try to help in part of it, but I know the biggest part of it must be in prayer.

First, the newspaper might face legal liability in printing issues such as this. Winning or losing the court battle would be a moot issue, as the battle would be terribly expensive and time consuming. An individual would not have the same risk exposure as a newspaper, but there would still be laws that vary from place to place regarding the distribution of pamphlets. Hate speech is a relatively new area that I don't know much about, but it might apply depending on what is said and how it is said. Anything that might suggest violence or advocating the dispensing of wrath, justice, and cleansing should be avoided. You might want to check this issue.

There are other legal issues you should check out. There are legal ways that you can distribute material that simply tells the truth. Problems might arise in some of the following areas: (1) laws regarding the distribution of pamphlets, handbills, etc. , (2) laws regarding inciting to riot or disturb the peace.

Reference #1, many cities have ordinances about what can be distributed and how it is distributed. Some involve littering laws in leaving material under windshield wipers or on doors. Some cities address whether the person had permission to distribute the material on property that did not belong to him or her (i.e. trespassing).

Reference #2, most cities have numerous laws regarding keeping of the peace, prevention of riots, prevention of destruction of property, and especially prevention of physical injury or death. It would be one thing to identify a Biblical truth and quite another to suggest the Old Testament solution (i.e. stoning). An officer would be duty bound by oath to arrest anyone inciting violence, destruction of property, physical injury, or death.

I would say that what you are suggesting can be done legally if you determine the specific law that deals with where you live. One set of laws would deal specifically with whether violence or death is suggested in the material. In the absence of this suggestion, many laws would not apply.

I hope that I've helped you some. What I said was very general. Each jurisdiction and State has it's own laws that might or might not apply. On the other side of the coin, there is your constitutional free speech that is also very complicated by the intent or suggested intent of that speech. I know this sounds like a bunch of "mumbo-jumbo", and it is.

In Christ,
Tom

Wow Symphony~ :-\

Under Current Events here, on a thread entitled, "Terrible Thought"(back on about page 4, Aug. 15),

I just read through that. I'm sorry I missed it earlier. The one thing that jumped out at me was this quote:

RK said:
"I have my beliefs, other people have theirs, and you are entitled to yours. Force them on someone else, however, and you'll get them thrown back in your face. Deservedly."

Yet isn't that what's happening TO Christians? A forcing of beliefs on us?

As for your dilemna, I'm afraid that's where we are all heading. To speak of things in church, where it's 'safe' (for now), is one thing. To be taking on a whole town, so to speak, is another.

My initial thought is that if you are speaking Scriptural truth, the Lord won't forsake you and your needs will still be provided for. However, that isn't to say that there won't be much you'll forfeit. I'll have to think and pray about this. In the meanwhile, I'll be curious as to what others think. :-[

Nope, bep, that's definitely not a bunch of mumbojumbo. Actually, yours is an excellent short essay on some of the things we do need to think about--esp. for those of us who may not be exactly up to speed on those invisible realities. Plus, we are to "rightly divide the truth". And the ever-present danger is of coming down as malicious, or otherwise inappropriate, for a believer, or Christian, when we do begin in this direction. Such is the "blackeye" Christians historically are leaving others with, in the name of "righteousness".

Thank you, sincere. Yes, your reply re: RK, nails the issue. There in Acts 4, and again in 5, Peter and John and the disciples are facing this against the Sanhedrin. They are unequivocal, and don't mince words at all. Sometimes God intervenes, like releasing Peter from prison, sometimes He doesn't(James is put to the sword).

I use to go on float trips. "Float" implies downstream. On one trip, just in a bend in the river, and after heavy spring rains, we capsized. Don't ever capsize in a bend. The downstream current we'd been pleasantly coasting along with, was suddenly now this mammoth, constant juggernaut pinning the johnboat under water against a submerged tree trunk. My point, when you go against the current, you're suddenly aware of this very hostile force you never even knew was there.

Yes, I'm "sorta" taking on the whole town. My amazement was the virtual, apparent, blackout on saying anything publicly, now years ago. Even though privately, I'm sure that certainly most of the men must be equally as incredulous. But its amazing to see how cowering we apparently can really be, when the pressure from down upon high. It seemed exactly like there in High Noon. All the men suddenly became docile little puppies. And many of the men here are ex-military, a few special forces, etc.

But if you can't say it publicly--wasn't that one of the whole points in the Revolution, in the first place--saying stuff publicly? And besides that, what point is the Gospel, if it isn't a public Gospel?

But again, as bep cautions, prayer and serious consideration, and, as you say, sincere, remaining scriptural... Definitely walking in the Spirit.

What is that verse, if any shrink back, my soul has no pleasure in him? (can't remember where)

Quote from: Symphony on October 23, 2003, 08:24:32 PM

But if you can't say it publicly--wasn't that one of the whole points in the Revolution, in the first place--saying stuff publicly? And besides that, what point is the Gospel, if it isn't a public Gospel?

But again, as bep cautions, prayer and serious consideration, and, as you say, sincere, remaining scriptural... Definitely walking in the Spirit.

What is that verse, if any shrink back, my soul has no pleasure in him? (can't remember where)

Oklahoma Howdy to Symphony,

You can do it publicly. I guess that I should have addressed that as well. It would involve something like a parade permit. An assessment would be made of the risks to public health and safety, and someone would have to post a bond and insure adequate security. The last big and possibly violent event we had was an anti-abortion rally where they wanted thousands of people to be holding signs along a major 6 lane highway through the middle of town. Meetings were held about what could be legally done. I think they had a 5 million dollar bond for the event, and all participants had to know exactly what they could do and could not do and stay off the roadway on publicly owned easement. Everything had to be addressed, not limited to blocking business drives, hampering people from going into or out of businesses, cornering unwilling participants, etc., etc. It really boiled down to standing along the road in about a 10 foot strip, holding their sign, and being quiet. Obviously, they could do anything to cause an accident. The bond covered what could go wrong, and participants realized they would be arrested if they violated the terms of the permit. Some would say that isn't fair because they had to pay for a permit and agree to all of those restrictions. I think the permit was $7.50, and the city probably spent $5,000 processing it. The City Council had to meet and approved security arrangements, etc. It was agreed that it shouldn't be a big problem if everyone did only what was allowed on the permit.

If you want to do a speech in front of City Hall, you can probably get a permit to do it legally if that's what you want to do. There you would be talking about the time of the day, methods to allow city business, what types of sound equipment, etc.. Being able to make the same speech in an official City Council meeting would probably never be possible.

All of the rules would change if you took the speech to private property and change again if you took the event inside a building of some type. You would not need a city permit for a speech inside a private building that couldn't possibly cause traffic accidents or a host of other public related problems. You would simply post a sign for the event and worry only about applicable law (i.e. seating capacity, fire codes, legal parking, etc.).

Just some more thoughts for you.

In Christ,
Tom

Mmmm, thanks, sincereheart.

I've printed out bep's responses and read them several times over.

Plus, just letting it sink in.

There are still probably many things one can do. I hear of people keeping selected tracts with them, leaving one or two in public places--restrooms, counters, etc. That's always a start.

At least in the area where I live, though, there's definitely a climate of hostile "tolerance" to Christians generally(--er, or, at least Christians who happen to read simple little stuff like the caveat on homosexuality, etc. ...). Most of the churches seem intent on complicity, and silence.

So, I'm just reading the Word, reading widely, working, and taking it all one step at a time. That's all we can really do--constantly waiting upon the Lord, looking to him, and understanding "...what the will of the Lord is..."(Coloss. 1:9)

I just saw a very interesting "Frasier" where he is confused with gays, and the whole unravelling that then occurs. It sorta profiled the subtlety--at least to me, with which this immorality can sneak in.

The thing that "Frasier" and other sitcoms like that--perhaps "Everybody..Raymond"--that make fun of the gay lifestyle, is, that, for in order for them to be funny, they have to rely upon an original premise that something is wrong with the behavior they're portraying--thereby admitting that there really is something wrong.

This particular episode would be perfect to show to an acquaintance of mine who is determinedly gay, even as he admits he doesn't know what to do about Romans 1. Yet, strangely, he would be putoff by it--and here, something coming from the liberal-left Hollywood, no less.

So it's all from different sources, different ways of looking at things. And you begin to realize there are truths being put forth--for instance, here with Kelsey Grammar, in Frasier, that they may not even be aware they are actually expressing.

God's truth, and the truth of Jesus Christ is just that. Like tough roots growing up under concrete sidewalk. No matter how thick you make that concrete, those tiny little roots can raise a slab of concrete.

So I'm looking at more than just a confrontational, or preaching, type of approach. That's not to diminish confrontation, or preaching, though, of course!!

Hmm. More than two weeks later now.

Am working on it, Praise God. That's for sure. Every waking hour, as I do other stuff.

A collection of issues here to synthesize and develop. Essential to have an accurate "sense of proportion", in all of this. Very easy to lose the path, to be distracted, from what "is", to what "is not".

Two enemies at present : 1) Being Vindictive. That in any "offensive" action(and as Christians, we're always to be on the offensive--to quench the firy darts of the evil one, bringing every stronghold into subjection under Him), that I not ever be vindictive.

And 2), Pontificating. That I not be using this as a soap box, or for self-advantage, grand-standing.

Largely for these two main reasons I'm wanting to take this "vewee, vewee swollwee"(as Elmer Fudd might say, hunting wascally wabbits-- ;D). Hehe.

:-X

Yes, it's been more than a month now, since last post, tho not a moment nor an hour now that I'm not thinking about this--for us, as believers.

Note, for instance, one latest twist--just yesterday(addressed separately here, under Public Schools, Prophecy):12/19/2003

A Dupo High School senior is protesting the school administration's demand that he refrain from saying "God bless" at the end of a daily bulletin he broadcasts over the school's televisions each day.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/News/0D129174F7DD019B86256E020013C5F4?OpenDocument&Headline=Dupo+student+protests+his+ban+from+broadcast+over+%22God+bless

I'm being watched like a hawk now. There's a defiance in the air, just you dare mention God (much less Jesus), on public property... Outwardly, authorities may claim for the same reasons cited in the above article, they can't be honoring one "religion" over any other, so they bar all of them. I'm seeing this as more an excuse to advance just basic, godless, socialism--which is what it is--making themselves instead "God"(everyone has a "god"--atheists have a god--themselves. They make themselves god--(that'ss why they're atheists)).

Those in public life here who use to speak to me, now look the other way, tho I've said nothing for months now. Maybe they see the allusions I made publicly are now coming true more than ever.

I continue to see retired teachers, for instance, normally in daily community life, etc.; polished churches with apparently adequate memberships. Plenty of ads for worship. But, no one saying anything.

Wow, Symphony! I can't believe I didn't see this thread before! That is great that you're willing to take a stand. Great. I'll post more later, but the thought occured to me that you might want to pray about it. Find out if this is a fight God wants you to fight. If it isn't, He may call you to brush the dust off your feet. Which of course, isn't merely a disgruntled farewell, but an imparting of judgment. A very serious deed, which God may be calling you to do. Because I really believe this nation is ripe for judgment.

But I will join you in prayer. God may be calling you to something really, really big. I'd pray that He leads you and guides your every word, your every contact, your every step, for the glory of His name and to your blessing in that service. If you do this, I have a feeling a challenge of god versus God will arise before your eyes. I've seen this happen. It wouldn't surprise me if He was planning this again, and you were His servant in this regard. Spend a lot of alone time in prayer and reading if you can, and I will do the same for you.

Thank you, Whitehorse

I'd pray that He leads you and guides your every word, your every contact, your every step, for the glory of His name and to your blessing in that service. If you do this, I have a feeling a challenge of god versus God will arise before your eyes. I've seen this happen. It wouldn't surprise me if He was planning this again, and you were His servant in this regard. Spend a lot of alone time in prayer and reading if you can, and I will do the same for you.

Thank you for that wonderful prayer. Yes, that's very good suggestion. Yes, exactly, I'm praying and you are right, it requires submission to His will, care, and prayer.

Yes, I was feeling that god vs. God thing today, for sure.

It may involve me doing, actually, very little, activity-wise. I've already done quite a lot, vocally, or publicly. In some ways, the silence is as useful as the activity, since it allows growth to appear and for others to act or re-act, too. I'm praying the Lord will give me the whole community, and environs, to His Lordship. It will be interesting, b/c in some ways its as stiff-necked as those in Jeremiah. ::)

Many think there is such a thing as neutrality. Imagine the creature you've created then telling you that he doesn't have to acknowledge you anymore. Smart move. ::)

;)

I fully believe God is going to do a marvelous work through you

Thank you, Whitehorse. Yes, actually, I pray he would/will do a marvelous work through all of us, each of us, in our respective positions. Each in our own way.

Thank you, sincereheart.

Walking by faith is a peculiar thing. I act, but I can't act before "the time". Then, the Spirit working everywhere else too, that I'm not. So sometimes, you never know what He's going to do next, or when He's going to do it, or where He's going to do it--whether through you, or someone else.

Folks are pretty self-determined. And we proceed further with still greater determination. Human beings are eternally self-willed; very wilful creatures.

Today's MA Supreme Court decfision re: gay marriage perfect e3xamploe. I'm gathering now that even most in my own area are at least indifferent to that, if not approving.

So the whole situation means walking circumspectly. It's all quite evil, actually. And you're not allowed to say very much anymore, it seems. I could list a dozen right here locally who would have the clout to scream at this one; but everyone remains silent. Everyone wants economic improvement; community betterment.... If you disagree with them, they can make it very difficult for you. It's all quite evil. Because the new policies, always evolving--or DEvolving--creep in only gradually. Before you know it, you're a part of something you don't even recognize. Like the common criminals who'd only intended to steal, but end up complicit in something much worse. Only this time it isn't "common criminals"....

Of course, rhetoric such as this will get you the label of "paranoid". But that would only be true if what you were recognizing in fact were not happening. But it is happening, and people are going along with it, and those in responsible positions who know better are conspicuously silent.

Tracts are good.

I'm looking to do the same; to start passing them out, or leaving them.

I may write my own. I've got this 'puter, with a printer.

Or, I'm looking at one magazine. I've already passed it out some. It has a place you can rubber stamp your name/address/phone number even.

I'm thinking through this.

I'm thinking I"m going to have to start doing things that are pro-active.

I may start constructing things deliberately so that gradually the issues become unavoidable. The apparently message I'm receiving is that most are only too happy to go which ever way the current wind is blowing. And when you go against that, it is going to come with a price.

Maybe one lesson here might be that our current (living) situation should not be any less painful or difficult than any witness we are providing. That way, when we do provide the witness, and are persecuted, the persecution is not any different from the situation we just left.

Ideally, we should be persecuted all the time.

Quote

Ideally, we should be persecuted all the time.

Oklahoma Howdy to Symphony,

You just spoke volumes in that sentence. I'm not happy that ADMIN has to spend tons of time dealing with folks trying to attack Christians Unite in dozens of different ways. However, that must mean there are all kinds of things going on at Christians Unite that the devil doesn't like. In that respect, we should give thanks.

You've spoken many times about how some people treat you badly or ignore you because of the moral and Biblical stances you take. Again, that is something to give thanks for. If you are rolling along with the world loving you, that would indicate you are giving the devil a ride and helping him reach his goals. Brother, give thanks when the darkness of this world doesn't like you. It would be nice to have some local brothers and sisters in Christ to stand with you. If that's not to be, God will give you the strength to do HIS will and purpose.

Brother, I'm praying for you.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Well, I just found this thread. I haven't been to the forum for awhile...you know how it goes. I've also been reading another forum, but I think I like the topics here better....

Symphony, it sounds like you're "under it" where you are. Now I understand why you were interested in t shirts -as a way to do something.

You could move to a bigger city...it's easier to be anonymous.

I understand your trepidations. I go thru the same thing. I can be bold one day and not be bold again for a long time. Fear creeps in. Or, some well-meaning Christian will be disapproving and give the impression we aren't to reprove sin and it sends me right back to the drawing board. Even the t shirts, (well, the 1) , I often have second thoughts. Yet, certain things "burn" within and are never silenced, and I think it is a constant angst. I keep asking what is it, Lord, because I never really get away from it. And today I think it came to me that I am not being obedient, and that is why I am wrestling. I keep being on the fence about everything.

So, I have been studying how Paul witnessed to the Gentiles, and I'm not done yet, but I figure he is a good model to follow. Also, John the Baptist and Jesus both were full of the Spirit, and my study bible says the Holy Spirit reproves the world of sin, righteousness and judgement.

I hear you when you wonder legally what you can do. I often wonder when the "hate speech" laws will be on the books. Have you ever looked up Ray Comfort? He is from New Zealand and has been here about 10 years or so. He did street preaching there and does it here. He goes to a mall or out side the courthouse or where ever, and he hasn't been arrested. He passes out tracts and leaves them everywhere. He even talks about going into the courthouse and talking to the people waiting for trial in the lobby. He has a couple of videos that show him preaching all over. You may have a different preaching style, but it is always good to see someone else involved. It's encouraging. The web site is livingwaters.com

There was also another website I had found that you'd have to do a search on now, but search out Gerald Sutek. He does public preaching, and has a couple of books - one I have called "Street Preachers Manual". It's all about how not to get arrested. I read it awhile back but chickened out since then. I think he has pictures on a web site somewhere of them in public with signs.

One last reference, there's a site called Light for the Last Days - I'll have to look up the reference and post it - but this guy lives in London I think (it's very heathen there now) and he was out in the public square passing out tracts and the Lord instructed him to begin speaking out His name....I'll send the link.

My friend told me there are some street preachers around here somewhere that stand on a corner with a megaphone.....I need to find what church they go to...

Thanks onestar.

Yep, each situation is different. I'm defintely not anonymous. Hehe.

I heard of one elderly lady once who'd visit inmates in a jail. They called her "Mom". She had an "in" that others didn't.

I did go to the store today and right there, the magnetic things you mentioned, and the transfers also, for your printer. 'Didn't buy any; but at least now understand what you were talking about better, and how I could use those.

So far I'm liking the "Homo'y is a sin" idea. I've worked out several ideas for that.

One idea; a one-inch wide paint brush; house paint. Practice your brush strokes on rags until you have a style you like--casual, yet neat. That might work very well. I haven't tried it yet.

As long as we're being obedient to God, and to His Word, then the details will work themselves out.

I always wear either t shirts or sweat shirts anyway, so it's not a big switch for me.

The important thing, I think we can have that "love" in us that passes all human understanding. In all this, that's what we want ultimately to communicate--that "peace" that passes all understanding. Not "militant", or vindictive, of course.

We want to honestly "care" about these people(homos'l or not), insofar as possible. Things are moving fast. There will be fewer and fewer people who do care--or are able to do anything about it.

I think there's much in the gay movement that is a reaction to the traditional "self-righteousness" of religious people, etc., so they're expecting the usual condemnation and hypocrisy. One very accurate accusation I heard on the news, during the Episcopal debacle last fall, "You didn't say anything when we began ordaining female clergy(in 1976)".

So the gay community is looking for the usual self-righteousness, and the usual hypocrisy, from us.

Hi Symphony,

I wouldn't use housepaint for your t shirts - it would probably flake off and clog the washer. Get acrylic craft paint at Walmart and then get a fabric medium to mix with the paint to use on fabrics. Sometimes WM has the medium but if not a bigger craft store (Michael's ? ) would - and they would know what you're talking about. The WM here didn't know what it was but another one had it.

I think I will modify my shirt slightly.....something like, "Hey! Heads up! and then in bigger letters, Homosexuality is a Sin...

sometimes it's confusing, because when you are angry over sin in the land, blatant issues like these, it's easy to feel maybe you are being self righteous. But it's hard to passionate about the issue without some anger creeping in - I don't think the anger is self righteousness, tho. It could be, if we fail to remember we are no better.

Also, homosexuals think christians are self righteous no matter what they say. Anything short of an endorsement is seen by them as self righteous, so I'm not going to let the term get to me.

Maybe a website address on the shirt in littler letters linking to a web site about people who are no longer gay? Or, Homosexuality is a Sin and then in smaller letters, Don't go to hell!

Yes, you're right, onestar, no matter what we say, it's ultimately going to be viewed as "self-righteous".

It's a gradual thing, for me at least. I was out and around in my paint splattered shirt today. Just reaarange the paint and I'm all set.

For me, I'm thinking I might hand paint the front, with the slogan.

On the back, will just be a simple scriipture reference(not the actual verse).

And instead of it being a verse addressing that exact issue, it'll be a broader picture for the believer. Right now, I'm liking Romans 12:1(especially b/c it talks about "presenting our bodies...", which is what all this immorality exactly is talking about, 'cept opposite.... The verse doubles for both what we are really here for anyway, plus it prophesies what these people will be doing to us anyway(...sacrificing us...), PLUS it already says this is our reasonable service anyway. There's no kudos for it.)

I'm thinking possibly, "Homos'y is a sin" for the front; and for the the back, just Romans 12:1, in italics, or a nice flowing script.

For the script, I think I might do in on the computer, then try one of those transfers.

If transfers would work well enough, I might use that technique for both front and back.

Do transfers work on a dark colored shirt?

If not, I'll probably handpaint the front; and practice a script for the back.

Well, good luck with your shirt. I think it is good to include scripture. Maybe instead of condemning homosexuality you could promote heterosexuality on the shirt? It's a little less confrontational and still gets the point across. It's hard, when you have to work and need to produce an income, etc, you don't necessarily want to throw it all alway, but at some point we have to take a stand and it's hard to know when and where - and what over. It's a very personal issue. I struggle with it.

Just my opinion, but I would find a way to do it that doesn't "cost you everything" until you're ready to make that sacrifice - I think we all will have that choice sooner or later. Like, I live in a really big town, so I can go out to the mall or store in the t shirt with little personal consequence, if any. Which probably makes me a hypocrite too. It's a difficult thing. I'm wrestling with it now - like, do I wear my cross pin to a job interview or wait until I'm hired? Do I wear my t shirt around everyone, or do I go to specific places? Would I wear it to church? (that would probably be the most dangerous place, hate to say it)

It's a bigger issue that homosexuality, really - like when you brought up the brownshirts and Nazis in another thread. That was a good analogy. Altho I think abortion really applies to that as well - because they're killing unborn babies. But homosexuality is the "issue" of the day, it seems - yet, it is bigger than that. There is a time coming when the buck won't just stop at that - the box will keep getting smaller and smaller for us. At some point, we will have to take a stand. I wrestle with too. Should I just go down now, since I will eventually? Or do I need to pray more and let God take care of when it is.

Quote from: onestarfisher on March 07, 2004, 01:17:11 PM

Well, I'll have to come back to this. But for just now, I don't think there's anything wrong with using everything at one's disposal--that means the total mix--being diplomatic, certainly prayerful. I've started thinking about your umbrella insurance extension you mentioned--hafta look into that.

Which is also a good point about your promoting heterosexuality. See, there are many and varied ways of going about this. For now, for me, I'm just doing it gradually, thinking through the variations.

It's been six or seven years since I started, oncde in a while, wearing a really old shirt. Once, I wore a really old pair of blue jeans--they were very well adequately patched, and sewn, into a public estblishment--public services. But while neatly patched and sewn, they still looked really bad. Well, I really got the lookdown. I've tested that a number of times. Even with old "friends", I've soon learned that most people really do rate you by the clothes you wear. And that's just old clothes, with nothing written on them. America is very, very shallow, and fashion conscious in this way. I've been guilty of it too. But it shows how unprepared we are.

But I think we should use every resource--both tangible, and intangible---that is, our wits, to advantage. As long as we're carefully, daily, prayerfully walking in His Spirit, we are on the winning team--even as we are losing, we are winning.

All of how we express it, in our particular situations, is a matter of what already is there in our heads, or in our heart.

So we needn't worry about trying to do too much, or how to do it, etc. It's easy to get the cart before the horse, etc.

I think just take one thing at a time. I don't see any problem with being strategic. That is, there are some places where I won't wear the shirt. Tho I'm still thinking through that. There may come a time when it will simply become critical. It's a mix. I don't see it as a dialemma really. The Lord will show us His good path.

bep wrote - I'm not happy that ADMIN has to spend tons of time dealing with folks trying to attack Christians Unite in dozens of different ways. However, that must mean there are all kinds of things going on at Christians Unite that the devil doesn't like. In that respect, we should give thanks.

Thank you, bep. I guess we're hardly aware of much of what Admin is having to battle.

onestar wrote -
I understand your trepidations. I go thru the same thing. I can be bold one day and not be bold again for a long time. Fear creeps in. Or, some well-meaning Christian will be disapproving and give the impression we aren't to reprove sin and it sends me right back to the drawing board. Even the t shirts, (well, the 1) , I often have second thoughts. Yet, certain things "burn" within and are never silenced, and I think it is a constant angst. I keep asking what is it, Lord, because I never really get away from it. And today I think it came to me that I am not being obedient, and that is why I am wrestling. I keep being on the fence about everything.

It's a learning curve. I did a study once on the word "train". Several NT references on it. We're in training. At some point you actually get to looking forward to it, I think. It's all quite positive actually. It's productive, and rewarding--"life that is life indeed". As we learn, I think we begin to see actually more and more of the "obsitcles" become in fact opportunities. Abraham's real sacrifice was over there stuck in the brambles. Could it be it was over there all the time. He just didn't "see" it?

I'm not sure that street preaching may be my tack. Right now, I'm wanting to approach it, really, as a pure business.

For a long time I didn't see how this could be. But lately, I've begun to think, why does all "business", by definition, have to always be necessarily "corrupt". Yes, by always requiring payment for goods or services, corruption thus enters. So maybe it can't.

But I've started thinking of using the business model, as opposed to a nonprofit one, itself, whereby to make the point, rather than relying upon just the product or service to make the point. That is, in how the operation itself is structured--using every obstacle as an advantage, instead of viewing it as the enemy. For example, hiring gays in the printing of the shirts. ;D

For a long time I never thot of these ideas. But in today's business and corporate climate(all last year, witness Mel Gibson's impossible struggle of finding distribution), I'm maybe learning things are not necessily as they appear. Obstacles can be to one's advantage.

Even just a shirt(or bracelet) saying, "Jesus loves you" (with a heart for the word love), would go a long way. What can you say to that? Are they going to arrest you for that?

Quote from: onestarfisher on March 07, 2004, 11:52:01 PM

Here's a link with a bunch of pictures of people in public with signs or t shirts..... http://www.streetpreaching.com/pics/pictures2.htm

Nice website recommendation Onestar!!!
I checked it out and there was something about those images... people sacrificing their time, money, and energy to share the gospel... Made me think about a local group I heard singing when I took a summer walk last year. I could hear the singing from a distance, but could see no one. Eventually, I could make out the words of the songs. Thought there was possibly a gospel concert going on and I decided to swing by after running my errands... Upon a closer inspection I discovered that they were no longer singing but now sharing their testimonies while others were handing out pamphlets... I sat down on a bench that was probably 200 ft. away from where they were... yes, I was eves dropping... Setting on the bench I began to think about what these people were doing... It was a Saturday--so many, if not all of them, were taking their time--our most prized commodity--and using it--not for recreation--not to earn additional money--but instead to share their faith with others... In a caring way they shared their personal stories and handed out the pamphlets accompanied by a friendly smile. They appeared to be friendly and approachable, people I would trust. In no way, were they confrontive, or abrasive, nor did they “force” anyone into a conversation/debate. As I headed back home I took just a moment to speak with one of the young men, who was about my age, and told him that, "God appreciates what you’re doing here, that you’re taking your time off to work for the benefit of others... may God abundantly bless your ministry". :)

Hm. Well, that was, let's see, seven months ( 'mos' ;D) ago.

It appears now I may get to make a public address - by invitation. No action yet. Just an intimation.

I know Jesus warns us not to think what we should say in that hour.

Still, just starting to think how it might go, what I might say, for His glory, and to say the relevant thing, the appropriate thing, the suitable scripture.

I literally would, be walking right into the "belly of the beast" - literally. As with anywhere else, no stones would be left unturned to see that I paid for being so audacious, or incisive, or daring.

I've been invited before, but not since I became outspoken. But since I've been quiet for sometime now, it's possible I'll be asked again - and right into the middle of an unsuspecting enclave.

It's funny, but if we really are "walking the talk", it just makes sense that that will be sensed by those about us - and either a friend or foe mentality then takes over.

Nevertheless, you want to be appropriate, accurate, fair, loving, but pulling no punches.

So I don't know how I would do it, or what I would say.

Likely, though, I would begin with a word of prayer, in Jesus' name, and I would pray about all the strife, and the recent losses for some. I think that would set the proper tone. I think I would pray for a modest and healthy respect for what the Lord has given us in His holy scripture.

But it certainly catch many off balance, and therefore, with repercussions.

It's interesting, though, how to 'navigate' such schoals. Deadly and dangerous, to be sure.

So we have to be walking by the Spirit, every moment.

Yes, we each have to walk in our own moccasins.

Some things were set in motion years ago - partially deliberately on my part - that give me a little scoop on the inside workings of things -- i.e, how people really think, how they make their decisions, what their priorities are. But, like working in intelligence, it requires you, too, being a 'part'. I.e., the trick, is gathering the necessary information, while leaving yourself unscathed.

I'm not so sure that's wise. The main risk is your emotions. You may make it through unscathed, but your own emotions are rarely unaffected. And later on, they can sneak up and grab you, and there you are, a casualty - and in some ways, a casualty of your own making.

Little wonder that Jesus said, "...Let them alone. They be blind guides..."

So wisdom would say to stay away from them at all costs - these would be the movers and shakers of virtually any community setting, as far as I can see.

In a way, my involvements are unavoidable - but foreseeably, they do have resolution, or an end in sight, albeit not immediate sight.

So it means having a Herculean command of one's own emotions.

That's the whole trick in all of this - your own emotions, and not re-acting to what others are saying, or doing. Acting is okay; but not 're'-acting.

The only way I know to have a Herculean command of your own emotions, is to not have those emotions at all. And the only way I know not to have thos emotions, is to have that meekness or humility before the Almighty. And of course, that only he can give.

Going up against these people - or rather, in the midst of them, that is, 'into the belly of the beast', is formidable, to say the least. The friendliest, nicest in all the world - sometimes patient to a fault. But only as long as you are in agreement with them. If they find out you are not in agreement with them, you will suddenly find yourself "disinvited". And largely, or increasingly, I think this is applying to public events.

It's no different from going up before the Sanhedrin. They would never tolerate you being "the Son of God", or, perhaps in our case, 'having the mind of Christ' - as I believe Paul intimates.

Jesus is no more welcome now, than He was in the days of the Roman Colisseum, and throwing the Christians to the lions.

There's a seeming bloodthirstiness in the air, with only a growing crescendo, to my mind. I think America is increasingly becoming bloodthirsty, for anyone who disagrees with the infiltrated majority.

I was watching my kitten munch last night on a baby chipmunk she'd caught. You didn't dare stick your finger down close to where this was happening.

That's how we're becoming - beastial. Increasingly insatiable appetites for the next dominating victory, but it's all laced with beastial sorts of commentary, people muttering under the breaths, or to one another, profanity, and in the circles of 'movers and shakers'. So you can only guess what going on at night, behind the scenes, and what's going on under the table.

But much of the conflicts of interest are done baldly, in broad daylight. And no one sees the conflicts. Or maybe they are pretending.

"Let us walk circumspectly, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of the time, because the days are evil." Eph. 5:15.

But again, just a few verses earlier:

"Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them." Eph. 5:11

And that's what I'm wanting to do - expose them.

Hmm.

Symphony,

I don't believe in coincidence. I have a stack of pages with portions of Scripture kept next to my computer. I would like to share the ones currently on top because they relate to your post.

Psalms 150:6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Isaiah 26:3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.

Isaiah 30:17 One thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one; at the rebuke of five shall ye flee: till ye be left as a beacon upon the top of a mountain, and as an ensign on an hill.

Isaiah 30:21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.
__________________________________

Isn't the WORD OF GOD awesome!!

Love In Christ,
Tom

ChristiansUnite Forums

Fellowship => What are you doing? => Topic started by: Symphony on October 20, 2003, 10:58:59 PM