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Well, I guess this is just an aspect of the irreconcilable concepts of God's omniscience and Man's free will.

If we were to pray, aren't we interfering what God has set?

Also, if people's prayers are contradictory, which one does God answers?

I've read a quotation - "Do not pray for easier problems, pray to be strongert men." This is an attempt to justify the power and extent of prayer. But where do you draw the line of the things that we can ask from God.

"Be content with what you have." Isn't this a tenet of Xtianity?

Then by praying, however trivial (winning a contest) it may be or however life-changing (save the life of a loved one), it still is an indication that we want more than God gave us. We are not contented.

If somebody could shed light into this. ???

Thanks

     Lex;
What is Xtainity, I have never heard of it?

   Just becouse we may pray asking for something dosen't mean that GOD will say yes He can say no , or wait. As for praying for something agenst His Will the answer will always be no, we should always end prayer as Jesus did.

MT 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

Forrest

I know u know what I mean by Xtianity but to avoid an argument and go back to my question - I'll state that it's obviously Christianity.

I think your post did not address my questions.

My quandaries include the nature of prayer to defeat God's foreknowledge of events and his Grand Plan, Prayers made by different people that are contradictory and prayer being an indication of discontentment.

You'd do yourself well to stop calling it xtianity.  To "x" out the name of Christ is beyond offensive.  You're trying to blot out the name of the Son of God being God in the flesh.

Joh 1:1
¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2
The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5
¶ And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

John 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Again though I will tell you.  You ask of things beyond your current ability.  You can not even begin to discern spiritual things until you have been saved.

God bless,
Jason

Lex, You are right,  at times people will be praying the oppisite things for the same situations.  However, the purpose of prayer is not just asking for 'things'.  It is a relationship with the Almighty and with that during prayer we should also spend time listening.  If our prayers are 'off' or our motives are incorrect the Lord will let us know if we take the time to listen to him.  

In Christ
Kathleen

DITTO  ;D

The use of an 'x' to signify Christ may seem offensive but why? It is a convention that is almost as old as Christianity itself. The first letter in the Greek word for 'Christ' is 'chi,' and the Greek letter 'chi' is represented by a symbol similar to the letter 'X' in the modern Roman alphabet. Whether the poster meant to be disrespectful or not I don't know, but it's a perfectly legitimate abbreviation.


This might be true if all people who have been saved spiritually discerned everything the same way. Really it's just an attempt to escape critical evaluation of your beliefs.

There is really nothing "irreconcilable" about these two things. God knows the end from the beginning and He does give mankind the ability and privelege to make choices.

God has not pre-set anything, but He already knows who will pray for what. The Lord commands us to pray.

Prayers which conform to God's will, His character, and His Word will receive answers according to His good pleasure. Prayers which fail these tests will not be answered.

There is no Scriptural basis for this seemingly wise statement. God wants us to pray for ALL things.

There is no line or limit that God has set. Instead He has said "If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed ... ALL THINGS shall be possible unto you". We limit God.  He does not limit us.

Yes. It applies to our own personal material possessions. This means that greed should not motivate our prayers. Need should be the motivator. As to God's kingdom and His righteousness, there should be no limit to our asking for the salvation of souls, the edification of saints, and the increase of His kingdom on earth.

This is a misunderstanding of the Word.  "Contentment" applies to our own material needs and wants. Everything else should be "discontentment" -- more souls, more righteousness, more unity, more maturity, etc..

Prayer is NOT to make God our mesenger boy.
But to BRING into manifestation THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
The FIRST pettition in what is called the LORDS PRAYER but is in fact the PATTERN of [prayer by which ours should folow.
was "THY kingdom come,THY WILL be done"
As Christians we are not here to do "our own will but the will of Him who sent us"
and as such our prayers should be "SEEKING THE KINGDOM OF GOD and HIS rightousness FIRST then all the things we are in NEED of TO THAT END will be added unto us"
In THAT context I see NOWHERE in scripture God saying NO to any prayer.
but are YEA AND AMEN in Christ Jesus.
The only NO is when we "pray amiss"

I always felt that prayer was a form of communication with our Father in heaven.  Jesus told us to pray continually and ask and it shall be given, etc.
    If Jesus, being Gods' only begotten Son prayed continually, asking for things, but in the end , saying not mine but thy will be done, we are to do the same.
    As far as changing  or interfering with the Master plan, God knows when and what you will pray and He knows His answer, as far as I believe.  
          God wants us to come to Him with everything in our lives, not just when we're in trouble, or sad, or wanting.  We are to pray for others, for needs, pray with thanksgiving, and joy, in mourning, and for just any reason you can think of.
        We talk to our earthly fathers, asking for needs, talking about our day, thanking them for things they have done for us, etc.   They love us very much, but nothing like the way our Father in Heaven loves us..... He wants us to rely on Him for everything, and we can't do that if we can't 'talk ' to Him, and praise Him , and thank Him, and believe that what He answers is for our best interest, not just something given to us because we selfishly ask for it.
          That is how I believe it is,,,,, it seems others somewhat agree with it....... Joy ;D ;D ;D

You seem to suggest, lex, that prayer is a contradiction to God's all-knowing, or foreknowledge:

Well, I guess this is just an aspect of the irreconcilable concepts of God's omniscience and Man's free will.

Or that the two, prayer and God's all-knowing, are irreconcilable.

But you forgot one thing:  God's foreknowledge can also include the fact of your prayer.  In fact, His omniscience certainly would include that.

If you pray, he has already forecast that.  If you don't pray, that too has already been forecast.

You're forgetting that it is only we who do not know the future.  God already knows what you are going to do.

Our prayer isn't for God.  He already knows what we ask.  Our prayer is for us.  A lesson in modesty, or humility.  If he does answer our prayer according to what we ask, it may be a suprise to us; it's no surprise to him.  He already knew you were going to pray for it, and He already knew he was going to answer it.

(hehe).  Now isn't that wacko??!!(http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/avatars/zanimals/zanimals31.gif)

I'm not sure that it is irreconcilable, however.

John here:
You correctly state that the knowledgeable one asks that God's will be done in the Lord's prayer.

And there are differant prayers. (standing, kneeling, driving, attitude of prayer, closet, sick, Worship +) And about your remark that I saved below, perhaps one might pray & study some more on this?

Isa. 59:1-2 tells us that because of flagrant unconfessed sin, God will not HEAR us!

And another verse in John 9:31 we are told, "Now we KNOW that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a Worshiper of God and DOETH HIS WILL, him God HEARETH."

One more: "If I [REGARD] iniquity in my heart, the Lord WILL NOT HEAR ME." Ps. 66:18 & then there is 1 John 5:16's last part of verse? Pray for this sin? I don't think so!

That leaves a lot to be questioned? Praying [certain] request's for certain KNOWN sinners for one? Even sickness brought on by ones continued use of tobacco or whatever?
How about canned rosary recitation of Hail Maries?
 
Personally, I might stand alone here, but I  do question [certain] types of prayer for people that I do not have a spiritual knowledge of, or of their desire to have this knowledge?

Perhaps you classify this as the "pray amiss" remark?

---John
++++++
 
(removed)

You say:
".. I see NOWHERE in scripture God saying NO to any prayer.
but are YEA AND AMEN in Christ Jesus.
The only NO is when we "pray amiss"

Saved_4ever


How then do I know that I am on the right path to Salvation if i do not fully comprehend what is its nature?

Saved_4ever


This is a serious problem I have regarding the inability of humans to answer questions that are supposed to be reserved only for God. He gave us logic and reasoning right? We should use it......

How can I be sure that I am on the right path to salvation if I do not comprehend its nature?

Sower


What if two prayers conform to God's standards, yet they contradict each other (A poor man praying for rain for a good harvest to feed his family and a poor man praying not to rain because it will destroy his house)?


Why are the poor still poor? Why do people die for no reason at all? Life is a basic necessity - why deny them of this?


Are you implying that we should all pray to be happy and righteous? Life is defined by problems and tests, isn't it? For if there was no evil, there would be no good. So all that is and all that was, good or bad, is God's will. If we wish to be happy forever, our humanity and would be robbed out of us - and the inherent abilities to make decisions and face problems. Why pray against it?

geralduk

So ur saying that prayer should not be about asking for something?

Jesus gave Christians examples of what they should pray for in accordance with God His and our Father.

Matthew 6:5.  "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
 6.  But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
 7.  But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
 8.  Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
 9.  After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. (Praise God.)
10.  Thy kingdom come. (for the coming kingdom)Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. ( for His will to be done in earth as it is in heaven)
11.  Give us this day our daily bread. (physical food and spiritual food)
12.  And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.(forgive our sin as we forgive those that sin against us)
13.  And lead us not into temptation,( keep us out of situations that could cause us to sin ) but deliver us from evil:(keep us from evil) For thine is the kingdom, (acknowledge God for what and who He is)and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."


We make the mistake many times of praying not in accordance to what God would have us pray. Prayers can be unscriptural. God gave us the guide lines for prayer.

 Matthew 5:44.  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Matthew 9:37.  Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;
 38.  Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

Romans 8:26.  Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Romans 12:12.  Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;

Ephesians 6:18. Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

 Philippians 4:6.  Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

1 Thessalonians 5:16.  Rejoice evermore.
 17. Pray without ceasing.
 18.  In everything give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

1 Timothy 2:1.  I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
 2.  For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
 3.  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
 4.  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
 5.  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

James 5:13-16.  Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
 14.  Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
 15.  And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
 16. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

1 Peter 2:12.  For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

 1 Peter 4:7.  But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

Jude 1:20. But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

 1 Timothy 2:8.  I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.


A few scriptural verses that covers some of what God expects
of our praying and our prayers.

Take care,
Ollie
 

"Well, I guess this is just an aspect of the irreconcilable concepts of God's omniscience and Man's free will."
 
"There is really nothing "irreconcilable" about these two things. God knows the end from the beginning and He does give mankind the ability and privelege to make choices."

Actually there is a valid philosophical argument that shows man's free will and God's omniscience to be irreconcilable.  I will try to sum it up here:

I know this is kind of a silly example, but it works and gets the point across.
Say I am going to steal from the collection plate at church one day.  If God has foreknowledge, he will know this always.  So, 100 years before I decide to steal from the collection plate God tells a prophet that I am going to do so.  Then at the moment that I was supposed to steal from the collection plate, I use my free will and decide not to steal after all.  Either I am changing God's message or I am proving God wrong.  Obviously it is impossible to prove God wrong because that would undermine the definition of God.  Also, I do not have the power to change God's message, because that would give me power the power to change the past and a certain power over God.  So, either humans do not have free will or God does not have foreknowledge.

Hmm, seems no one is interested in this contradiction anymore.

Someguy,

There is no contradiction. Your hypothetical has no logic when you are talking about God Almighty. God knew the number of hairs on your head before the foundation of the world. If you had a thousand choices and changed your mind a thousand times, the outcome was still known by God before the foundation of the world. Your hypothetical assumes you can outsmart God, and that can't be done.

Prayer isn't interference-it's interaction. The Bible is filled with commands to pray. God is sovereign, but He uses natural means to fulfill His will. For example, He ordained us to live, but we still have to eat. He may want us to get a good degree, but we still have to study to get it. This is so we can interact with Him and He can use us actively to do His will. The Bible says, "The prayers of a righteous man are powerful and effective." This doesn't mean we always get what we want; it may be that what we want isn't God's will or that we will become more skilled in asking for spiritual things.

Not that God doesn't care about our temporal needs-He does. We are to pray for good things, both spiritual and material needs; but we are to be content with what we have if our service to Him requires us to be poor for a time, or for always. We pray for needs and blessings, but accept and be grateful for what He gives us, much or little.

Prayer is good, and seeking good things is good-especially spiritual things. But God tells us if we seek Him and His righteousness first, He will add all these things to us-according to His will, of course. But our goal has to be to seek Him, not what is in His hand.

And we are to pray for each other. And...we have a promise. If we seek the Lord, He will give us the desires of our heart. I'll look up some scriptures for you.

Blessings,
WH

I realize that the Word of God explains that whatever we faithfully pray for God will answer.  All points made well in the fact that praying for things is not the point in prayer.

My concern is that what the Father's will is, is our will.  Whatever challenge is before us, whatever need is necessary, Our Father in heaven is there, enabeling us to be sufficient in all things for the necessary reasons.  If we are without, there is a reason, if we are in need, there is a reason.

I do not question my creator and God in heaven, except when I always ask that His will be manifest in all matters.  He knows exactly what His plans are, how they affect others, and how we all are to be built up as his children in Jesus.  The whole point to our walk in life is to look to Him.  Without Jesus there is no christianity, and we are to beware of those who do not believe that Jesus was alive in the flesh.  Without Jesus there would not be a New Testament, hence, taking "Christ" out of christianity then turning around and quoting scripture seems futile and contradictive.There is only one way to find out, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved. And there is only one way to find out if it's true, that is to believe.  Your world will completely change.
Praying is not selfish, nor up for rebuttle in my life.  God does not allow somthing in my life without reason, never has.  All things work together for good to those who trust in Him.  But if you cannot trust in the Lord and communicate, even if He does know your heart, how can He work with you in your life?  That's like having a one way conversation.  
God will work in all lives regardless of our deeds.  It's Jesus's works through us that counts.  So, if I pray, I am approaching the most perfect being that has it all in control, that is God in heaven.  I conduct my prayers as such, knowing that He asked us to pray, and gave us a mediator, Jesus, who is acting as priest at this point for our behalf to the Father.  
It's all in the heart, not in the head.
It's so obvious that God loves all men.  Is it so ovious that men love to conquer wisdom?  Kind of a natural reaction.  God wants our hearts.

********
John here:
Good post, Isa. 59:1-2 tells all, that a persons Prayers are subject to Everlasting Coverant Conditions. See Heb. 13:20 for the Everlasting Covenant.

Actually Blackeyedpeas, the argument that I put forth is completely logical.  It is a philosophically valid and sound argument.  The argument does not assume that you can outsmart God, it simply shows that in order for God to perfectly know the future we cannot have free will.  What you are claiming is that God can do the impossible.  Sure God would be able to do something that is impossible for us, but not something that is logically impossible.  For example, God cannot make a square circle or make a stone that is so heavy that he cannot lift it.  These are things that are logical impossibilities, much as human free will and Gods ominiscience are logically incompatible.

Someguy,

If your post about limiting the foreknowledge of God was logical, let me give you another logical post.

You are a figment of your own imagination. Since you don't exist, you didn't write the post and I didn't read it. Further, you're not here to read this post.  :)

Without going into great depths of scriptural support posting, let me just say this:  Is God completely sovereign in all areas of man?  YES!!  Does man have freewill?  YES!!  Both are true, and do not in any way negate the other.  How so?  For starters, man's freewill.  If God made me an automaton, He'd have no reason to command me to obey now would He?  That is simple logic.  Furthermore, if I were an automaton, my sin would be God's doing and not mine own.  Scripture blatantly refutes that concept in the book of James.  My sin, is just that.  Mine.  

Yet, God is sovereign.  He often makes decisions for me.  I believe that our view of our freewill is often times seen through our eyes as opposed to His.  Consider Abimelech for a moment.  Here's a guy who innocently takes Sarah, Abraham's wife, to be his wife, because they had lied about their marital relationship.  God tells Abimelech in a dream that his nation will be destroyed for his sin.  Abimelech pleads with God, "Out of the innocency and intregrity of my heart have I done this" he says.  And God says, "You're right!"  He tells Abimelech the sin he would have committed - God did not allow him to commit!  Sorta shoots the freewill of man as we understand it often times down doesn't it?  Yet, it was Abraham's sin that brought this situation about by telling a "white lie" about his relationship with Sarah.  Abraham, acted by freewill.  Abimelech, was not permitted.

Again, Pharoah, after experiencing each of the plagues, what does the scriptures tell us? That God hardened his heart that he would not give in and let them go!  Pharoah's freewill choice was held back from him until God was ready for him to make it.  God delayed his freewill choice.

So then, how do we come to understand future events, God's knowledge of them, and our still having freewill?  Is God any less sovereign based upon our freewill?  Does my freewill choices confuse, or make God's knowledge of the future any less credible?  Absolutely not!  How can I say this so certainly?


I think we often get caught up in the here and now more than we ought when considering God's knowledge of our future.  You see, if we are His, then He has the ultimate plan of conforming us to the image of His Son.  He began that plan by justifying us.  He works that plan, through His sovereignty and our freewill choice to obey by sanctifying us.  And He ultimately completes that plan by glorifying us - He makes us like Christ!  Regardless of our path in getting to that end, as believers, we all get there.  God uses different paths based upon the singular, immutable truths of His word to work each of us who know Him as Lord and Savior into getting there while we are still here.  Why?  That a lost and dying world might see Him in us.  And in the end, we are made Christlike.  God knows my future.  How?  Because He paid for it with the blood of His Son on the cross of Calvary.  Every choice I'm permitted to make He will use to sanctify me, whether by chastening, or by confirming.  Nothing catches God by surprise.   :)

God in His word tells one what they should pray for and ones prayers should always be in accordance with His will and what He wants. He doesn't want the prayers of men in their vanities.