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Can a Christian be in error on doctrine and still be saved?

2 John 9 states: "Whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and Son."

This verse tells us that if one sins to where one is no longer abiding in Christ's doctrine, he no longer has God. So how can one still be saved if one doesn't have God?

Many people today believe that error in doctrine does not cause a loss of salvation. This verse clearly says that we must abide in the doctrine of Christ to have both the Father and the Son.  Without the Father and the Son there is not any salvation.

The conclusion being that error in doctrine which is not Christ's doctrine can remove one from God's grace which gives
salvation.

2 John is addressing the elect lady and her children, (the church), in this letter and it is they, he is telling, that can transgess and abideth not in Christ's doctrine,  In verse 8 tells them: "Look to yourselves that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward." Then goes on to the verse quoted previously.

This all comes about as a warning and admonition about deceivers not believing Jesus Christ has come in the flesh.
Verse 7.

Ollie:

This verse is not speaking about all Christian doctrines, but about one specific doctrine: "the doctrine of Christ".

This doctrine states that the Word of God, who is indeed the LORD God Almighty,  became flesh and manifested the Father to the world as Jesus of Nazareth.  That He died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and rose again the third day according to the Scriptures to give us the gift of eternal life. That Christ is God our Saviour, and that it is His blood and His righteousness that saves us.

Those who reject the Deity of Christ, that he is fully God and fully sinless Man, the finished work of Christ on the Cross, and His resurrection as Lord and Savior, are not, and cannot be saved.  That is the message of this verse.

There have been numerous heresies since the beginning challenging or denying these truths.  It is these heretics who are being addressed.  See 1 Jn. 4:1-3. These heretics (Jehovah's Witnesses for example) must neither be invited into your home, nor must you wish them God speed (2 Jn. 10). Seventh Day Adventists believe that Christ did not finish His redemptive work on the cross.  They also fall into this category.

Greetings,
I don't mean to be argumentative, but I do have another view. I believe the "DOCTRINE OF CHRIST" has to do with verse 7 - "the coming of Christ in the flesh." Let me quote the Scripture here so the context would be clear.

2 John 1:7  For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8  Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. 9  Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Notice that John calls the one who does not "confess" that Jesus Christ "is come in the flesh" a "deceiver" and an "antichrist." The problem, as I see it, is that many of our translations (including my favorite - the KJV)  do not translate the clause "is come in the flesh" properly.

The Greek verb, Erchomai 'to come' (S.2064) is in the Present Passive Middle Participle and should be translated "coming" rather than is come. The NEB does translate it this way. I believe the sense is that he who does not teach that Jesus Christ is coming in OUR flesh, is a deceiver and an antichrist.

An antichrist is anyone who opposes Christ. That is, someone who does not allow a person to be dependant upon Christ who is within the believer. There are several denominations and radio and TV evangelists that put a great deal of stress upon their own doctrine, not permitting their fellowship/followers to question their teachings or policies. In other words, they demand total acceptance of what they say without giving a thought to what that "still small voice" within us is saying. This is opposing the leadership of Christ. Notice what Paul says in Colossians:

Colossians 2:18  Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19  And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

The words "worshipping of angels" might be better translated worshipping of messengers to include men who go about teaching their own doctrine and demanding that their followers believe their every word. Notice how they are "vainly puffed up by their fleshy mind." In verse 19 it is said that they are not "holding to the Head" who is Christ. It is He who nourishes and builds up the Body, not men. Men at best are obedient messengers.

Coming back to 2John 1:9, those who "transgress" the "doctrine" of Christ are those who abandon the teaching that Christ is coming within each of His followers. Once a deceiver gets his victim to look to him instead of HE WHO IS WITHIN, it leaves the believer dependant upon man instead of his/her Head who is Christ. This is a deceiver and an ANTICHRIST.

Just another thought.

Have a great day, and God bless,

John1one

John1one:

There's a serious flaw in your interpretation. You have not connected it with 1 John 4:1-3. This has nothing to do with Christ coming into the believer but Christ coming into the world as fully God and fully Man: "Every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ IS COME IN THE FLESH is not of God: and this is the Spirit of anti-christ" (v. 3).

To clarify this one must go back to John 1:14,18: "And the Word WAS MADE FLESH and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth...No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him".

Almost from the beginning there were various Gnostic heresies which perverted the truth about the eternality and deity of Christ, as well as His two natures. Arianism, Sabellianism, Monarchianism, Socinianism etc. all have to do with this. Today's Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians, Mormons, etc. repeated the same heresies.

You novel intreprtation is misleading since the focus of the doctrine of Christ is Christ, not Christ in the believer.

Ollie,

I won't go into great detail as I believe Sower has more than sufficiently covered this question, but I did want to add one point.  You asked...


This verse isn't a conditional verse, but a positional verse.  That is to say, the one who transgresses this doctrine and doesn't abide therein doesn't lose God, but never had God.

Greetings Sower,
I believe in the deity of Christ and have defended this doctrine on other forums, but I don't believe that these verses in 1John and 2John have anything to do with defending His deity except indirectly. That is, why would He be IN us if He were not God? Why would an angel or any other being have such a universal effect upon man's salvation?

Let me explain why I believe that these verses do not have the meaning that you claim. 1 John 4:3 "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."

The verb "is come" is in the perfect participle active and should be translated "having come" according to my Greek morphological tool. If this word were to give the meaning that you claim, it would have to be in the aorist tense showing that it was an action that took place at one time in the past. That is Christ came in the flesh and does not have to become flesh again. Nevertheless, this is not the case. The perfect tense indicates an action or more correctly a process that took place in the past, but is having an effect in the present. An example of what I mean would be in Mark 5:34 "Daughter thy faith has made thee whole." Though the action takes place at one time, its effect continues on. Secondly, you will notice that the verb in 1John 4:3 "is come" is in the active voice. The Greek has an active, middle and  passive voices. Let me show you what I mean. 1Corinthians 13:12 has all three:

1 Corinthians 13:12  "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

Each of the above clauses are in the order: active, middle and passive respectively. "I know" is what Paul is doing at the present when he is speaking. This is in the active voice. "Shall I know" is in the middle voice and indicates an action upon himself, that is he is going to know something about himself that he doesn't know at the time he is speaking. The middle voice expresses an activity that the subject does upon itself. John 1:14 indicates such an activity "the Word became flesh." The verb here is in the middle voice. It expresses the subject acting in some way upon himself. Jesus was involved in His becoming flesh (Philippians 2:6-8). The third clause above is in the passive voice and represents the subject receiving the action.

What I am trying to express is that if 1John 4:3 is meant for us to believe that "is come" means Christ becoming flesh, it would have to be in the middle voice, just as it is in John 1:14. In fact John 1:14 is in the aorist tense, middle voice; just as I indicated above that "is come" should be in 1John 4:3, if it should mean what you claim. It is not, however, and must indicate something else.

I am aware of the fact that there were many Gnostic elements present when John wrote his books. Some denied that Jesus was God, that God became flesh, or claimed that God was three modes instead of three Persons; but this is not what this verse is defending against. Personally, I believe it is defending against the Nicolaitan heresy (Revelation 2:6, 15) that really has never been effectively addressed in Christianity. The Nicolaitans were leaders with a deity complex. They lorded it over the people. This exists in every denomination today, and in many cases (but not all) is responsible for the denomination's coming to be.

If the believer would trust Christ within him rather than looking for men to teach and lead him, we would all still be one body, rather than the mass of schisms we see today; each one claiming to have the correct form of truth taught by Christ. Difference of opinion can exist within the Body of Christ without dividing up the body of believers. You and I disagree, yet I believe we would have no problem worshipping together.

Sower, I am willing to believe I am wrong here, but so far you have not presented a convincing case. As I understand the "Bible helps" I have been given, what you say about these verses cannot be true. Nevertheless, I am willing to be wrong, if you can prove it.

Have a evening and God bless,

John1one

Hi, John here:

What is your take on Rev. 18:4? For just starters. No. There is no way that any one that [*REALY] BELIEVES in Christ would Violate this verse for any length of time without grieving or quenching the Holy Spirit away! If one is convicted of the doctrinal error?

Yet, how could any one today with the extra increased knowledge, even be in ignorance except by being the Lukewarm sickening 'BELIEVERS' of Rev. 3:16-17? And then reject 'Increased' knowledge & be lost as seen in Hosea 4:6?? (try Matt. 4:4?)

Or unless they Really Believe yet are seen as the ones of John 12:42-43, then they are told that they are of the PARTAKERS FATE!  :'(! Try Obadia 16.

---John
******

What other "Christian doctrines" are there? Other than Christ's?

The verse does not say, " never had God", It says, "hath not God", and it is addressed to the elect lady and her children, not the unfaithful.

Hi Ollie, John here:
No is the answer to your question on one staying with known false doctrine.

Read 2 Tim. 3:16 for the answer of not only (any) DOCTRINE, but for what John meant in 2 John 1:*6-11. (notice verse 6 is left out of most thoughts on this, take a guess why?) But doctrine MUST be forumlated by ALL SCRIPTURE, all 66 bks. are needed. The Doctrine of Christ surely would include at least other of John Inspiration! (see 1 John 2:4) But that still is not enough!

Paul states, "And the spirits of the prophets [ARE SUBJECT TO THE PROPHETS]." 1 Cor. 14:32 Do you have this 'belief' in the Master? Paul was in the N.T. talking about even more O.T. prophets! Try Isa. 42:21 & Isa. 8:20 for 'false doctrine's testing'!

And in Matt. 4:4 Christ who is surely more accurate in His Words than even John, tells us a Everlasting Gospel Truth!
'Man does not live by bread alone, BUT BY EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDETH OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD". (all of the 66 books) One such WORD is seen below.

So you can read Rev. 18:4 'prayerfully' & without ANY of mans professed wisdom, or mans inspirational 'false doctrine', AND KNOW THAT THE VERSE IS TRUTH & that you have a correct ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION ...*FROM GOD HIMSELF!
AND THE VERSE? It IS A FATAL ETERNAL DECISION TO MAKE!!

---John

Let's see,


2 Jhn 1
9  Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

I don't know how anyone could question the teaching (doctrine) of the verse; hath not God, sounds pretty definitive to me, this means  this person, whoever it might be does not possess;

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Now I suppose everyone who has a problem with this verse, has to define what the doctrine of Christ is.

Maybe they could find it in the OT scriptures.

Without spending alot of time trying to do this I would say off the top of my head, His teachings would be central to the idea of identifying His doctrine. Since doctrine is defined as; teaching tenets, or principles of the faith.

Having said that, now allow me to point to JESUS own words;

Jhn 10
25  ..............   told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26  But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you..
27  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:.
28  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..
29  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand..
30  I and my Father are one..

Is it not the fathers will, that these be saved eternally, whom he gives to Jesus??

NOW, since there are some that teach, and have deceived many into believing that man can lose his free gift (of salvation), if he transgresses the law, how does this square up with Jesus's doctrine herein, ?

Especially, when the Apostles and elders at the first council of Jerusalem, confirmed it was not necessary to keep the Law of Moses and be circumsiced. (Acts 15)

It would seem to me Christians, who have fallen for this doctrine, which is contrary to Jesus's doctrinal teachings, need to evaluate, the doctrine they claim to be of Jesus.

Especially, since the next two verse, are very clear;

10  If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11  For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

This includes internet visitors, heh..

Blessings,

Petro

Well, lets see if this is true..


"............................the doctrine of Christ"[/b]

I suppose one should understand what it is, before he can determine, what this verse is speaking of.

Please note, the word "doctrine" is singular and used in the present tense.

I see the previous poster, misunderstands what that doctrine is.

Let me say that the "doctrine" of Christ, as taught in this verse, is principle to who Christ is, and although He himself confirms this doctrine, the doctrine itself concerning Him, is found in the OT.

Every person, will live or die, as a result of the doctrine of Christ.

So what is the, doctrine of Christ??

Petro

leqach {leh'-kakh}
1) learning, teaching, insight
a) instruction (obj)
b) teaching (thing taught)
1) teaching-power
2) persuasiveness

didache {did-akh-ay'}
1) teaching
a) that which is taught
b) doctrine, teaching, concerning something
2) the act of teaching, instruction
a) in religious assemblies of the Christians, to speak in the way of teaching, in distinction from other modes of speaking in public

The doctrine is the teachings of Christ, the commandment he gave that all who believe on him should do. The answer to these questions Ollie and Petro ask are in the very verses Ollie quoted from (2John 1). If you do not keep His commandments then you are without love and you are none of His.

What is the Doctrine of Christ?

Matthew 22
37   Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38   This is the first and great commandment.
39   And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40   On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

2 John 1
5   And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
6   And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

OK: John here, so seeing that we seem to agree on the eternity of the Gospel & the eternity of the Godheads Eternal Covenant Character being the same, His Moral law of Love. (You know forum ???) GOD IS LOVE! (Epistle of 2 Cor. 3:3)

Then tell us all the 'very simple' Truth of Isaiah 42:21's ( :) )meaning, and how this was done? (not as in finished, huh? :'()
By the way thanks for your 'work' of love!

---John
******

Matthew 7: 28.  And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
 29.  For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

The doctrine of Christ is His instructions to us through word and deed as given to the writers of the Bible through the Holy Spirit.

John here:
Very good verse to 'cluster' with 2 Tim. 3:16, thanks!
The DOCTRINE of the MASTER is ETERNAL AS HE IS!
******

Johnthe Baptist, Tawhano, and others,

While all that has been said, to this point may be true.

It is not what is in view herein, at 2Jhn1:9.

While it is true, the doctrine of Christ may be interpreted as "his teachings", it also, means "the teaching concerning Him", and this is what the word focuses on in the passage of scripture; which when revealed by the Spirit of truth, the natural man, is able to confess Him as The Christ the Son of the Living God, as Simon Peter did, at Mat 16:16.

The basis for the doctrine of Christ is found in the book
of:

Deut 18,   Moses speaking;
17  And the LORD said unto me, ......................
18  I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.


Both are true, but the unlearned, focus on one aspect and cannot see the full picture, because they have already been deceived and embrace their brand of doctrinal theology, which rejects the very words of Jesus.

One should focus on the teachings of Jesus, and must believe Him, it is becuase God the Father himself has put every word in His mouth, which He has spoken.

This is the "doctrine of Christ"

So then, in the passage in question, 2 Jhn 1, at verse 7, we read;

7  For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

So, among the Christian church, there are those who teach and have taught deception from the begining, and Jesus warned his disciples

"Take heed that no man deceive you.  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
"(Mat 24:4-5)

and, this is a reality today, as many are being and have been deceived by these and willingly follow them.

In the garden, the serpent said to Eve, "Ye shall not surely die:For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."  (Gen3:4-5)

So false teachers, have come into the church teaching contrary to what Jesus taught, deceiving many;

Jhn 10
25  ........ I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26  But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30  I and my Father are one.

So, the same serpent who was present at God's garden, has spoken to these christians, who are deceived and teach contrary to Jesus's own words, and said, to them;

"ye shall surely die!" For God knoweth that the day you sin, you shall perish, there is no eternal life for you.

Is not this the teaching you espouse, and adhere to??

OF COURSE IT IS; it is a teaching straight out of the pit, which you believe to be the truth.

So, I ask you, who has really been deceived??

Jesus said;

Jhn 8
42  ....  If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43  Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45  And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

I share the word with you, that you might recover yourselves, from the great deceiver, whos, teachings you seem to listen and embrace,  more than the words of the Savior, and all while claiming to know Jesus.

When the "doctrine of Christ " is seen in the its right perspective, one can then understand, that life and death hang on every word Jesus spoke.

Blessings,

Petro

This is absolutely correct Petro. This is exactly what I have been saying to you in this and other threads. This is exactly what you have rejected and called me unlearned, the son of the devil and other things. You need to practice what you preach Petro.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Mark 12
29   And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30   And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31   And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.[/I]

I’ve been saying all along that the individual must make the decision to come to the Lord and you called me a follower of heretic doctrine. Now you are saying the exact same thing in that we “must believe Him, it is becuase God the Father himself has put every word in His mouth, which He has spoken.”.

Acts 2
37   Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?[/I]

And Petro answers, “Nothing, God has done it all, there is nothing you need to do”.

Hear you the Word of God, Petro.

38   Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39   For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.[/I]

God have given every man and woman the choice, just as He has always done from the beginning.


I am absolutely offended by your self-righteous attitude and name calling Petro. I have shared with you verse after verse that show that we must make a choice and we still have a choice afterwards as well. The best you could do is wave your hand and dismiss the verses, as not meaning what they clearly say or the Christians the verses were referring to weren’t Christians at all. You carefully select verses to debate and stay well clear of the ones you have no rebuttal for. The best you can do Petro is inject confusion into the Word of God to uphold a doctrine that the Bible does not teach.

I told you before and I’ll tell you again, I sit here with just a Bible, online Bible Word search and Strong’s Concordance. No commentaries, no preacher, no pamphlets, no pews to fill, no coffers to fill. Just me, the Bible and the Holy Spirit. I confess with my lips that Jesus was sent by the Father in the flesh to take away the sins of ALL who believe on him.

Tawhano,

Hello in there..

Well now, I see we are getting some place, you are starting to expose yourself, now.  so you say, you believe this. And, that is absolutely correct!!, and then even add;   "This is exactly what you have been saying all along,"   Wheeeoow!!!

I say,  you haven't been saying this, all along, at all and you really don't believe this, at all; at least not from the standpoint of what you have said up to know.

Your attention is called to John 10:25-30, aren't these the verses I have been bringin to your attention, (from way back when the discussion was centered around Heb 6:4-6;) which
Jesus spoke himself.

You don't believe Jesus at all, He said;  

28  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.  
29  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30  I and my Father are one.

You have been arguing all along that, a person who has been given eternal life by Jesus can PERISH..  REMEEEEMBER..

Now you change your tune.....when a verse has illuminated the subject for you, and you claim that this is what you have believed all along. Sighhh...

Your starting to really confuse me..now, and with John here's help, you've really gotten yourselves spinning around and so dizzy, to the point where you have come full circle, even agreeing with me, whom you argued with, and took exception that the word "partaker" was emphatically speaking of a saved, Spirit sealed, and filled individual..who when he sinned, fell away, and perished.

Lets see, if we can't clarify this??

You asked the question;  "How can unbelievers be partakers?


While being emphatic that "partakers" in Heb 6 are indeed Spirit filled believers, which perish, you deny the very words of Jesus (all along claiming you believe Jesus); and then fail to support this heretical assumption, with scripture, where Jesus makes such a claim, that any that commit sin will perish.

(Please correct me as I am recalling what points you were making while arguing your position.)

So then, what you believe and (would teach); is that a person who has been saved, that is to say sealed by the Spirit of Truth, if he sins (falls away), he loses his salvation (the free gift) and can never brought back to repentance, because he has put Christ to an open shame. (Heb 6:6)  

Or in other words;

This person, who was given eternal life by the Grace of God, whereby he will never perish by Jesus, forfeits this (free gift) of eternal life because the Evil One has been  able to pluck him, from the Fathers hand, seeing that this individual was snared in sin, the result being he can never be brought back to repentance.

If this individual can lose the eternal life Jesus spoke of, there is only one of two possible explanations, 1. He never had it, to begin with, or 2. He never lost it., if he obtained it at all.

The first explanation, is unbiblical, since it is a teaching which is in direct opposition to Jesus's own words. We call it HERESY.

And if you believe this HERESY, it is because you have a distorted understanding of the Gospel.

The Gospel of Christ teaches that the Grace of God (Gods undeserved love that never quits) produces eternal life that is grasped by Faith (Eph 2:8-10) in Jesus Christ's finished righteous works at Calvary's Cross, and Faith is not produced by oneself that no one should boast.

Then you post these verses, as if, they prove, your theory;

   
John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

You really need to learn how to study the scriptures, you are taking this verse isolating it, and then using it out of context, Phillip, and the eleven, although chosen by Christ were still in unbelief; (sure they believed somethings about Jesus, but their faith was not the faith necessary for producing salvation, and the sealing of the Holy Spirit) none of them believed HIS WORDS until after Jesus rose from the grave,  ....(Jhn 2:16-22)

The very passage makes it plain, Phillip hadn't yet believed Jesus to the saving of his soul. Since Jesus said he would pray for those who believe in verse 12, for another comforter.
It is evident, no one had believed to this point, since Jesus never prayed this prayer for these.

What's the point you, are try making with the next passage??


Mark 12
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

And, then you give us this verses;

Acts 2
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

What are you trying to prove by these verses??  I suppose you would teach, that water baptism is in view herein and it is what would bring on the indwelling of the Spirit, which obtains the gift and that they pricked their own hearts

Now you show your dishonesty, which explains, why you fail to understand scripture.


Please post the quote you attribute to me..above.  
Where did I give this answer anywhere.??  


You assume to much, aside from the statement you attribute to me, you state above;

"I've been saying all along that the individual must make the decision to come to the Lord"

You been assuming all along that the partakers, in Hebrews 6:4, were believers sealed by the Holy Gohst, just like you assume, that when Jesus stated;  

"If ye love me, keep my commandments.",

means that if you don't, Jesus will cause the gift to be taken away from those to whom he has given it to, all because you assume this is speaking about the law of Commandments.

You are presumptous, and think to highly of yourself,

Everyone who has received the Lord and  been sealed by the Holy Spirit, does not live to keep the law of Commandments, since we live unto another law, it is called the Law of Faith which is the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus (Rom 8:2)  (Rom 3:27-31); this is why we believe;

Rom 8
1  There is no condemnation them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

I know I gave you this verse, once before.


There are many today, that believe they are one of the Lords sheep, when in fact they are goats, he will say to these in that day;
I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Mat 7:21-27)

And all because they trusted in there own abilities and works.  Imagine how great this deception, they thought they were known by Him simply because they assumed that He knew them, because they knew something about Him.  Amazing..

Don't assume anything..Tawhano.
 
By the way, I can see, part of your problem, it has to do with your slogan, signed; author unknown, if you believe this, it explains quite a bit, towards why, you cannot see, the point.
we have been discusing.

I guess you have never read Mat 16:26

The scriptures are plain to teach, that Jesus is the Captain of our salvation, and salvation has to do with our soul, I know of no true Christian which would agree with YOUR SLOGAN..

Blessings,

Petro

Petro,

Okay, you are pretending to be a person with Christ-like attitudes. Prove it. You tell me what I need to do to be saved. Tell me the correct path to Christ. You said I know nothing of the scriptures, so share with me the truth.

Tawhano,

You are in denial, gert serious..

You've never answered the questions I have asked of you..

..especially, the false statement you attribute to me.

Seriously, you need to work out, what you have placed our faith in.

Its obvious to me, it is in your interpretaion of what words mean to you.

Such as faith in what you have done., not what Jesus has accomplished for you.

This is why, you agree with the statement "we are the  captain of our souls", and it makes sense,  since, you define faith as something you produced yourself.

While you may be able to believe, it is doubtful, you produced the faith necessary to be saved, evidence that you have it, will manifest itself, when you are able to believe what Jesus, says, instead of rejecting it,

...let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
(Rom 3:4)

Nice try, but no cigar..friend

Blessings,

Petro


Petro

Forum: John here.
There are several very old 'error's of DOCTRINE seen on the forums of today. Read Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15. And some may think that their new found 'belief' & their *great 'desire' to push it (see Gen. 4:6) is something new, (or is doing their own thing..of WORKS) but the Master's recorded 'WORK' tell's us otherwise! Read it!

Lets just touch a few of these errors. OK: First lets see why 'i' at least am 'partaking' in this prayerful 'work'? (do not tell me that it is not a WORK for ALL of these posters, prayerful work might be in question though?)

In Titus 3:8-11 we will use a few verses telling us what 'Inspiration' teaches. That of good WORKS & that these ones.. 'WHICH HAVE BELIEVED IN GOD', are not un/believers.

He contrasts these [BELIEVERS], who discuss 'foolish questions', 'CONTENTIONS and STRIVINGS about the LAW' which Inspiration CALLS *VAIN!
Remember, that these ARE believers at present. Paul states that after once or twice, these 'believers' BECOME VAIN BELIEVERS, and with just one or two simple admonition rejected! Do you have that 'Belief'?

"A man that IS AN HERETICK AFTER THE FIRST AND SECOND ADMONITION REJECT; KNOWING THAT HE THAT IS SUCH IS SUBVERTED, AND SINNETH, BEING CONDEMED OF HIMSELF."

Regardless of whom this is talking about. either side? Both of these 'BELIEVERS' become VAIN & lost by their self importance! (the only safe motive would be to exspose false doctrine to you readers, not a poster's MIND, MOTIVES, or person  :'()  
But the verses teach that a TRUE BELIEVER can change his or her position of belief! Try Hosea 4:6.

Another: Believing, finished, NO WORKS, and once saved always saved! ???, Confussed, Paul surely must have been, huh? We will get to Paul shortly.
 
Yet, the exact history of the O.T. past is being 'seen' in the future history of today!  FACT! (the Eccl. chapter's, 'if' one does 'really believe', His Word's? )
Christ says this HIMSELF, He needs no inspiration in Mat. 23:3. He was very soon to start up His new Church denomination. And He was speaking to these that would GO OUT TO MEET WITH HIM IN IT. (see Matt. 25:1 &*6 for a Virgin 'once' saved FOLD)

Here are His Words to the WISE. "*ALL therefore, WHATSOEVER, they bid [YOU OBSERVE, (only believe alone? HARDLY!)  *[THAT OBSERVE AND *DO]
(DO the Good Virgin doctrine/wise! but now notice as we continue on:)
BUT DO NOT YE AFTER THEIR  [*WORKS, (WORKS OF FAITH & BELIEF) FOR THEY SAY, *BUT DO NOT"].

And what 'error' in Doctrine does one see 'pointed out' in this above Word & directly from the TRUE SOURCE! That OF Only BELIEVE, no works, it is finished! Always saved is a FINAL working Covenant condition, that of a DECISION OF CONDITIONAL LOVE FOR CHRIST! (according to our record books & Judgement)

The Doctrine of Christ is what some think that they understand is from 2 John. He is one of my favorite 'penmen'!
But lets see what he was 'Inspired' to write in 1 John. Verse one makes no doubt whom he is talking about! The BORN AGAIN BELIEVER'S. (present tense) Verse 1 speaks of the 'overcometh the world'. A WORK of.. 'HE THAT BELIEVETH'. Notice the 'end' result of these free choice ones, of either way, saved or lost?

If one quotes only the positives, even my friend John has some folks confussed, like as does Paul? But notice in the ENDING of the chapter that he clears it up. He still tells one that it is not 'finished', (as some teach finished) but in verse 15 he again tells us WHO these one are! Ones that believe!

Notice the Word of BROTHER in verse 16, and notice the Word of SIN, it is still there! (no law, no sin) Now notice the difference of this being the SIN NOT UNTO DEATH. (see James 1:14-15 for the START to FINISH of sin)

But the thought is that John still agrees that [the BELIEVER] is still able to 'sin'! Now notice that 'us' Brethern (?) can let sin come to the place of being as seen in verse 16's last part, the .."There IS A *SIN UNTO DEATH: *All unrighteousness IS SIN: and THERE IS A SIN NOT UNTO DEATH." All sin by the believer can become the sin against the Holy Ghost. When it IS FINISHED, FULL CUP so to spear. Again check Psalms 19:13

Then he goes on talking & telling us that the ones BORN OF GOD *KEEPETH HIMSELF. 'Works' of LOVING 'BELIEVING' OBEDIENCE, huh? Finished? Hardly! Try Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9.

Now for the last thought for now :).
Saul was a murderer. He had the good 'seed' sown in his heart, and AFTER it took hold he became Paul. And it seems that much of the twisting of scripture by folk today are trying to make Paul as their 'error in doctrine' teacher?

In Acts 9 came Saul's surrender of the will to Christ Himself.
Paul asked the Christ who was now in heaven itself, and after the time of the Acts 2's Pentecost time that had 'fully come',..
WHAT MUST I DO?
It seems that now, would have been a good time to tell this often mis/quoted one what we are today HEARING AGAIN & AGAIN?
Paul (Saul) *MUST DO SOMETHING?? Surely Paul & Christ must have known that it was ALL FINISHED?! And that there WAS NOTHING ELSE REQUIRED IN BELIEVING FAITH THAT NEEDED TO BE DONE?! THAT ONE WAS 'ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED'?! And that EVERYTHING ELSE WAS THE DOCTRINE OF ERROR?! Huh?

And people [PERVERT] both the Master's Words & poor old Paul in being a hypocrite, and publicly re/crucify Christ and put Him to an OPEN SHAME?! (Of works of errorous teaching & doctrine. see Heb. 6:6 :'( :'()

But let 'see' what Christ told Paul? (Saul) Remember ALL OF THE MIRACLES that Christ Did & still does.  :) And remember that Saul was BLINDED at Christ's presence & GLORY. Why did the Master not heal him along with all of the rest of the above ones & there false doctrine of today?  

Notice why: Heavenly ZION'S MASTER had intrusted (yes conditional) His ORGANIZED NEW DENOMINATION with adding membership to the HEAVENLY ORGANIZED DENOMINATION. (or of its heavenly REMOVAL if that be the need) See 1 Cor.10:1-3 & Matt. 17:15-19 & *Eph. 2:20-21 & *Matt. 18:15-18)

Take note: There can be NO LOOSE CANNON'S WHO ARE 'FINALLY' RETAINED AS TRUE BELIEVERS!  (see Na. 1:9)

So what was the CONDITION for Saul, as told by the MASTER HIMSELF?
Acts 9:6's last part of verse:
"Arise, AND GO INTO THE CITY, [AND IT SHALL BE *TOLD THEE WHAT *THOU MUST DO]." Why did Christ not tell Paul what MUST BE DONE?

Some say, Believe only? Or that Paul taught that belief was WORKLESS? Or that Christ told one, that he could be a 'gutless wonder' & a person who has no Denominational ORDER? Or, it is good enough 'belief' to just come out shooting from the hip, and in believing in the 'once saved always saved' thing?
Friend: These above 'beliefs' take more 'presumptous faith' than that of believing in evolution! See Psalms 19:13 again!.

Bottom line: Your 'free decision' to follow Christ requires ALL.
Then & only then have you been re/created with the starting point of 'conversion'.
All of the PROVISIONS are then in place for your WORKING partenership, Covenant, pledge, baptismal vow, two party agreement! See the Provisions in Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9 once again!

OK: In Acts 9:13 we see Christ also giving some assurance to the church! :) Hay, would you have taken this guy in, based of his record of 'works'? but read on, and then see what the REQUIREMENT results are! And that is Everlasting Gospel & Everlasting Covenant conditions. :)

---John  

Tawhano,

It is not a wild reckless accusation, I make, when I said;

"you define faith as soemthing you produced yourself"

Since, you believe you can lose eternal life, which is the free gift Jesus, says He gives to all whom the father send to Him, and these He says, He will raise up at the last day, and they shall never perish.

While your God dishonoring doctrine, rejects the very words of the Savior. Whom you say  you believe in.

I don' have to prove anything to you, If you don't believe Jesus, what makes you think, I am going to convince you or even prove to you, you are wrong.

You need to repent of such thoughts..

Petro

Thank you Petro, you have shown your true spirit.

I am preparing a rebuttal to your post; did I say I wasn't or that I wouldn't be posting anymore? What I have asked of you was a fair proposal. I am asking for your view of how one finds the true path to salvation.

Tawhano,

You do take the cake, now you want my views??

Look,  you need to reconcile what you believe with scripture, not my views.

As for how does one find the truth for salvation??

No one is deserving of anything but, judgement, because the scripture says,

Rom 3
10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Do you believe this??

And as I said before, God is not obligated to save any one, but just because He does, right away some think it is because I believed.  

This is the lie, Satan would have these believe to keep them from coming to the truth of the Gospel.

God gave you the Faith to believe, O Man. you were unable to believe or receive, much less understand.


The Gospel is plain, when it says, at;

Eph 2
1  And you hath he made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins:

Jesus said;

Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. (Mat 8:22)

Mat 22
32  ........................God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Now Satan has his followers among God s sheep, who have introduced these heretical doctrines; which state,  "man is not really dead" , "he can hear, and believe". Part of this may be true, but, how can one hear unless he is made to hear, or believe unless he is made to understand that he might be converted??

Jesus said;

Mk 4
11  Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12  That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Do you think, one has there sins forgiven before they are converted??

And then the unlearned, reason among themselves, and conclude "if I believe, then I will be saved, so then this is my part that I need to do."

Either we were dead or not dead, depending what one chooses to believe concerning this will determine, where he winds up in the doctrine that leads to truth or  deception.

If it is true, everyone is dead in sin and tresspass, this means, a person, can't even hear the Gospel, read 2 Cor 2:14, it is plain from this verse, the natural man (although he is physically alive) is unable to receive the things of God, neither is he able understand them at all,

Why, you might ask yourself??..........because he is dead in sin and tresspass, is the answer..

So, what is it that causes some to hear, and others not to hear, it has nothing to do with man, and all to do with God, listen carefully..

Rom 9
15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22  What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23  And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Nobody can will himself to believe anything concerning God, if there is none that seek God, and ALL are sinners, and dead in sin,  then it stands to reason, if any are saved it is because God, has caused it to come to pass, and it is God 's perojative and he excersizes it sovereignly.

He gives everyone the opportunity to hear the Gospel, as many times as possible throughout their lifetime, only those those who willingly respond wind up repenting and believeing him, because He cause them to hear the message,

He shows kindness and mercy, through his Grace, allowing to be drawen by the Spirit of Grace, thereby giving them Faith to believe in Jesus, and this faith had nothing to do, with anyones will or what they might have done or will do, or deserved, or intelligence or anything else,  they were dead in sin and tresspass, and could not believe, receive nor understand, and He chose not to harden their hearts, when they turned from the Gospel the many times they heard it before.

One must understand he is a sinner, period.

This is the first bleak reality one must come to, before he can start understanding, how man comes to the truth of God's Gospel.

If you are a Christian, you need to get this idea, out your head that you were saved, because you believed in Jesus, you didn't believe in Jesus at all, you simply believed, when you came to the truth that Jesus's blood forgives sin, that you were a sinner, in need of forgiveness of sin, that you were  dead and would remain dead eternally if you remained in your sin of unbelief, and there was nothing you could do about it,  you agreed with God, you were dead in sin ans tresspass.  It was only then God sent you to His Son, that your sins were washed away, this is the real Baptism with the Holy Spirit,

God cleaned you up and put his spirit within you, this is what is called the new birth, where before you did not believe, receive nor understand the word of God, but know believe it, by the Spirit who dwells within you. It was all his doing, for you to take credit for any of it, is dishonest, with the Word of Truth.

This is the doctrine that Glorifies God,

Jesus lives to intercede for his people, because the evil one accuses them of sin before the throne day and night, this is why he sits at the right hand of God, unto this day, interceding for us.

Haven't you ever read this,  

Rev 12
10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Heb 7
22  By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23  And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24  But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25  Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26  For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27  Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

This is why our High Priest said  [coolor=Red]And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,[/color]

He not only died for those whom he saves, but he interceds for them at the throne of God, for their sinns, which they continue to comit (not because they want to, but because they have not yet been perfected, the difference is that before we were in bondage to sin before, but now being set free they are not in bondage to sin), buyt are being accused of by the accuser day and night, when they sin.

Notice what the following verses teaches us, they are speaking of the "free gift";

Rom 5
12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13  (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15  But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16  And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17  For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Did you understand what verse 16 is teaching us; inspite of many offences the free gift is what justifies; we are righteous in Jesus, we are judged according to His works not ours.

Glory to God.  If I had to be judged based on my works, I would have no hope, but because of Jesus, I have this great hope. And, I confess I am a great sinner, but have a greater Savior.

How does denying the very words of Jesus, give glory to God, ??

Prophesying Christians, should believe God, and not believe heresies.

Take heed let no man deceive you...............these are Jesus own words.

Blessings
Petro

Do not take your beliefs to the Bible. Get your beliefs from the Bible.  ;D

Yes indeed we are getting someplace. The first sign that someone is presenting weak argument is when they twist the words of their opponents around to discredit them. I have not changed my view at all. Because you think I have then I take it you either haven’t understood one word I’ve said or you have no viable rebuttal for me and have to resort to pettiness. I have been clearly stating all along that the individual has to do something in order for the promise of God to come to them.

You said “One should focus on the teachings of Jesus, and must believe Him, it is becuase God the Father himself has put every word in His mouth, which He has spoken” and that is what I have been saying all along. There is something required of an individual to accept the free gift of God, he must believe the words of God and then do them.

I posted verses to support this and I have said it all along. Your attempt to twist my words will not change my earlier postings. Anyone can go back and see that I have not changed my stand. I don’t know what else to say to get it through to you that I believe the verse below and others like it clearly show that we need to do something to receive the gift of the promise from God:

Acts 2
37   Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38   Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39   For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.


I have not changed my tune at all. What I have said over and over again is that I believe the gates of hell cannot prevail against the promise of God. The promise is there on offer to all who accept it. Nobody, not even satan, can take that promise away. When does eternal life begin? At the end, which if we endure till that time we are able to receive when Jesus catches us all up into heaven on the Judgment Day. I also said that as freely as we receive freely we could reject. We can turn away from God but the promise is still there and will always be there but if you reject it then you are like the dog returning to it’s own vomit, the pig being washed returning to wallow in the mud again. Show me how what I believe is at odds with John 10:28-30. It is only in your mind that what I believe is against the Word of God and you have not been able to show otherwise.


I am not dizzy at all. I stand fast to what I believe. You are simply twisting my words because you have no sound argument to defend your views. In fact you are very selective in what you wish to share with this board. I do not agree with you on who the partaker is, nor have I said such. The partaker of Christ is a Christian. You have provided nothing to show that this is not true. You argument is that if the partaker is a saved individual then that verse is at contention with John 10. What I am saying is the contention isn’t with the verses at all but with your interpretation of them. You are unable to harmonize the scriptures without corrupting them to fit some man’s interpretation of salvation. I made myself clear, it’s you who are dizzy and trying to twist my words because the foundation you build your argument on is shaky.


I have no idea what John 2:16-22 has to do with this discussion, so I am unable to comment on that.

I am not isolating the verse in John 14:15. The verse stands true and powerful on it’s own. The old ‘using it out of context’ argument eh? Then to prove your point you take the verses out of context and put the cart before the horse. It wasn’t their belief in question at all. Nobody at that time could be saved through their belief in Christ because He had not yet fulfilled the law. The promise of the Holy Spirit (Comforter) was not yet given. Their belief was sufficient which is why they obeyed Jesus and waited for the promise of the Spirit in that upper room having already believed, repented and baptized as commanded.

John 14
15   If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16   And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17   Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Further you said that none of them believed His words and yet we read:

Matthew 16
13   When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14   And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15   He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16   And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17   And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18   And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19   And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20   Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

If God revealed it to them then I guess their belief was sufficient, or do you believe it was only revealed to Peter?


Acts 2
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

Yes that is exactly what this verse is saying. The gift of the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey the Word of God and Repent, are baptized as this verse clearly states. This isn’t the only verse that tells us that we must be baptized and that the gift of the Holy Spirit will be given to those who obey God’s Words.

(Part one)

(Part Two)


No, you are the presumptuous one. Here you attempt to twist my words again. I said nothing about the law of commandments. Jesus fulfilled the law; we are not under the law anymore. I posted this verse in defending my view that we have a choice to make. That was the whole point of my post, had nothing to do with whether it says you can lose your salvation by not keeping commandments. So what are you saying then? That someone who does not love God can find salvation without first repenting? Jesus was giving his followers clear commandments of what is required of them to be able to partake in the promise of the Holy Spirit that was to come. All the instructions Jesus gave were leading up to that point when His sacrifice would provide us a way back to God. A choice was given for those who would seek the promise of God.

I am not assuming that the partakers in Hebrews 6:4 were believers; you are assuming they are not.

The way I see it, the two major problems we are having here is that this post started off as a debate about OSAS and then predestination crept into it. Now you are assuming where I am arguing OSAS that I am arguing predestination and vica versa. The other problem is your hateful comments.

You pretend to come to this forum to help people find the truth. Well, I came to find truth and all you have shown me is hatred and contempt.

Doctrines of the Gospel:

Are from God ---- John 7:16; Acts 13:12
Are taught by Scripture ---- 2 Timothy 3:16
Are godly ---- 1 Timothy 6:3; Titus 1:1
Immorality condemned by ---- 1 Timothy 1:9-11
Lead to fellowship with the Father and with the Son ---- 1 John 1:3; 2 John 1:9
Lead to holiness ---- Romans 6:17-22; Titus 2:12
Bring no reproach on ---- 1 Timothy 6:1; Titus 2:5


MINISTERS SHOULD:
Be nourished up in ---- 1 Timothy 4:6
Attend to ---- 1 Timothy 4:13,16
Hold, in sincerity ---- 2 Corinthians 2:17; Titus 2:7
Hold steadfastly ---- 2 Timothy 1:13; Titus 1:9
Continue in ---- 1 Timothy 4:16
Speak things which become ---- Titus 2:1
Saints obey, from the heart ---- Romans 6:17
Saints abide in ---- Acts 2:42
Showing good fidelity adorns ---- Titus 2:10
The obedience of saints leads to surer knowledge of ---- John 7:17


THOSE WHO OPPOSE ARE:
Proud ---- 1 Timothy 6:3,4
Ignorant ---- 1 Timothy 6:4
Doting about questions, etc ---- 1 Timothy 6:4
Not to be received ---- 2 John 1:10
To be avoided ---- Romans 16:17
Not endured by the wicked ---- 2 Timothy 4:3

Tawhano,

You have forgotten already...

This thread was on "doctrine error" and it began with a refernce of 2 Jhn 1:9, speaking of the meaning of the "doctrine of Christ".

Your posts on all other threads,including this one have for some time now been centered around, your own disbelief in the very words of Jesus.

In the "Eternal Security" thread, you have argued back and forth for days, in Reply's #76, 78, 81, 107 and so on, that  the "partakers" of Heb 6:4, are those who have received and been sealed by the Holy Spirit, you even asked the question

at Reply # 81

"The verse says they partook. How can an unsaved person be a partaker of the Holy Ghost or the heavenly gift? This verse is most definitely talking about people who were saved but did not endure to the end. The verse below says the same thing, believers can fall away if they don't hold steadfast in their faith."

Do you remember, where you are now..??
I asked  you the question, how does your understanding of this verse, square up with "Jesus's own words in Jhn 10:28

 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,,

to which, you refered to Rom 11, and James 2:19; you did the same thing on Reply #6 at the  Once Saved Always Saved thread  dtd May 1, 2003 as Reply #6  when discussing this matter with Ambassadore 4Christ.

Then yesterday, you were enlightened, that  the words of Jesus are very important, and must be adhered to, as a life and death matter.

Now, if Jesus's words are  a matter of life and death, then  it is important to get the context of every verse where He spoke,  correct, lest we lose the meaning of  the teaching.

Aside from Jhn 10:28,29 and 30, I call your attention to the following verses;

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
  And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
  It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. (Jhn 6:37-40,44-45)

You had previously asked this question? At the Eternal Security thread as your Reply #107  

Tawhano asks;

I have to ask this even though it may cause this thread to divert from the original topic but I need clarification. All the verses I come up with showing someone falling away is met with 'they weren't really saved'. How and when is someone saved?

The answer was given to you, in the very next reply, by Sower, as; imediately when one comes to Faith in Jesus.

Now if, One has come to faith in Jesus, this means he is saved right then and there, in your opinion, those spoken of in Heb 6, are saved because they were partakers of the Holy Ghost; not so, I said to you, because one must be a partaker of Jesus Christ, this is what saves.

Now, you claim;
 
I am not assuming that the partakers in Hebrews 6:4 were believers; you are assuming they are not.

You my friend,

are in denial, you have posted so many things, you have forgotten what you posted where and what and when,

You have been espousing that all believers must obey commandments to keep their free gift of salvation, and now you would even deny this was your position. (refer to your answer above in Reply #81, I have emboldened it for you)

Your age is getting the best of you, you need to slow down, and think things through, before you reply.

Let me encourage you to get into the word, you have been given solid, verses, which reject this brand of teaching, which you hold to.

And furthermore, it is plain from all that you have posted, that you do not believe Jesus words at all, even thou you say you do,  but, that you trust in your own ability, to keep yourself to the end, and your faith is in yourself, and not Him.

And no wonder, you don't understand how and when a person is saved, but it doesn't have to be this way.  God, is willing that none should perish, this includes even those who think they are, when they are not.

Reality check.  friend..

Blessings,
Petro

Petro,

You seem to think that personal attacks are strong debating tools, which they are not. It doesn’t matter if I mistaken a post on another thread to have been on this thread or not. Each time it was you who I was replying and the message was pertinent to this thread as well. I have not changed my stand on anything I posted here. You simply don’t understand what it is I have been saying because you don’t read it through. You already made up your mind what my argument is without bothering to read it through.

The fact is that it’s you I don’t believe not Jesus’ words. There hasn’t been one verse you quoted that I didn’t believe in. It’s your interpretation of the verses that I take objection to. Saying you know the real meaning of the verse and that I don’t isn’t a valid argument at all. Your sad attempts to explain yourself only proves to me that you are repeating what you have learned from someone else’s ideas and not your own.

You have been my biggest ally in debating on this forum. You attempt to win an argument by name-calling, sarcastic remarks and twisting my words around to suit yourself. How can someone claiming to be a Christian be so rude and hateful?

It may have escaped your attention but the title of this forum is Christians Unite. Passing judgment on people who don’t share your views isn’t in the spirit of this forum. The moderators obviously do not care or they would have said something by now. I would debate further with you if I thought you could refrain from personal attacks, sarcasms and passing judgment on those who don’t share your views, however I doubt you are mature enough to do so.

Tawhano,

You said it, you have been arguing all along, the problem is that you are unable to understand what has been said because you argue, agaist the very words spoken in scripture, words of life.

You simply want them to mean what you want them to mean, you've asked for my view point, not cause your interested in knowing what the scriptures mean themselves, but that you may further your camps agenda.

Just because you come to a verse, where Jesus appears to contradict himself, doesn't mean one should ignore His words, they should encourage you to find out where the apparent contradiction lies, and only then will it become apparaent that it never is in what He says, it is, in what one interprets it by comparing it to viewpoints shared by others,

Thank you, but I am not interested in knowing viewponts that disagree with what it already set in stone.

And who made me your teacher, anyhow... it is obvious to me you came you preconceived teachings perpetuated by those who have itching ears.

You are mad because I pointed out your backpeddaling, after you claimed you never bevlieved what was obvious from the begining, if you are willing to be taught, I encourage you to search the scriptures and in them you find the truth, but don't ask anyone other the the Spirit of Truth, it is an insult to Him, to seek wisdom and understanding elsewhere.

As I see it, if you really believe the words of Jesus, you apparently don't see a contradiction in the idea, one must keep  his commandments or perish (never mind I pointed out He never said that at all, He did speak of keeping the Law of Moses being necessary for eternal life when asked by a certain man (Mat 19:16-19), and the verses I have pointed out to you apparently don't register, with you since, this is why you say, my mind is made up and no one can change it.

So what's the point?? of continuing to argue. That was evident from the begining, when you declared yourself to be a "free agent".
 

Hi John here:
The thread is a good one. But lets remember that the thread says doctrine! Not peoples error. And that is fine with me also if it is openenly 'seen' sin.

Do I get my point across? In other words only the Master knows each ones heart! Or the person postings mind! It was He that said that the Wheat & Tares were to grow together.

This is hard for one to understand perhaps? Let try to clear it up. There are Wheat. And there are Tares. Then there are OPEN sinners. The Open sinners are NOT TO BE IN MEMBERSHIP for long. Or else Christ will not be there Himself. (see Josh. 7:12's last part of verse)

If OPEN SIN is taught for doctrine, one becomes apostate, and is to be 'spiritually' dealt with. Now, if a denomination fall's into this catorgory, they will be held accountable, and will in time become Christless! The candlestick will be REMOVED. Rev. 2:5.

Has the latter ever happened?? Israel of old's denomination became desolate of Christ. (Matt. 23:38) And check Rev. 3:9!
When Christ is NOT there, who takes His place while its members are still claiming to be Christians. And yes, many are STILL CHRISTIANS in ignorance.

One thinks of the great whore & her daughterharlots. They are such because of 'known error taught for Truth'! That is why Rev. 18:4 is a eternal life or eternal death matter!  

Please take note that there are no names listed here! Yet the thread was discussed, and error was the subject, NOT A SINGLE PERSON was mentioned. In fact it WAS STATED that Christ has HONEST CONVERTED SAINTS still in all apostate 'FOLDS'. See John 10:16 & again read Rev. 18:4 VERY C-L-O-S-L-E-Y!  (and yes, surely most might take offence?)

Now for the bottom line question: Of these ones in the errorous false Folds, (denomination's) Can any one ON THE FORUM READ THEIR HEARTS??? CHRIST said that He HAS OTHER SHEEP not of this Fold. Seems that their heart must be OK SO FAR, to me? And COME OUT OF HER [MY] PEOPLE
seem to establish this Truth!?

We CANNOT, nor do 'real Christians' DESIRE to read ones mind!
Gen. 4:6-7 tells one & all who it is that does this evil work!

So my thinking at least for one, is how about just leaving off the names of people in 'most' of our postings, & stick to the errorous DOCTRINES themselves, the Lord knows that the forum's are full of them! It seems to me that there is enough of this to take up a real Christian's time?

---John
 

John,  

The parable of the wheat and the tares, is explained perfectly by the Lord himself , I invite you to look carefully at

at Mat 13:40, the tares in the end are all burned up, after the harvest, and these are they that perish, but grew up for a season among the wheat (children of God).

So there is no third kind of seed, if this is where you went with this idea, you tried to explain.

 He that soweth the good seed, is the Son of God(the children of the wicked one, are the tares), (the children of the kingdom are the wheat), those that aren't perish at the end, pure and simple. Ther is no need to make it more complicated than it is for those who have trouble already understanding the God Word which is able to make one wise unto salvation.

God allows the tares to grow with the wheat, so that none of the wheat is accidently plucked up with the tares, but lets them both grow together so, the ALL of the wheat comes to bear fruit, then will the harvest begin.

Do you agree??


Blessings,
Petro
Blessings,

Petro

Petro,
I can’t just let this go. You made false accusations towards me that I need to address.


It has occurred to me that the reason you think I am in denial and ‘backpedaling’ is because you do not understand what it was I clearly said. Read it again. I said I wasn’t the one assuming it was you. I know the partakers in Hebrews 6:4 were believers; I am not assuming they are, because it clearly says so. It is you who assume they were not and offer only your opinion with no scriptural backup as evidence.

John 14
15   If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16   And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17   Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18   I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

I quoted the above scripture and here again you used personal attacks and lies to support your point of view by claiming I said we are under the law. I explained to you what my view on Jesus’ words ‘If ye love me, keep my commandments.’ and it has nothing to do with keeping the old laws or a believer losing his salvation if he didn’t keep them. And yet you ignore what I clearly said and put words in my mouth and then attack those words, which I never said. I posted this verse to indicate that the Bible clearly indicated that there was something required of us to do to obtain the promise of God and that is the promise of the Holy Spirit. I tied this verse in with receiving the Holy Spirit (John 7:39); which you yourself had indicated is the end result of being saved.


But how does one get to the point that they receive the Holy Spirit in the first place? You suggest it’s because God gives us the faith to believe first.


But then you tell us:


How does one repent if they don’t first believe? And how can they believe if they need the Holy Spirit to make their belief sufficient for salvation as you claim? And how do they receive the Holy Spirit if they don’t first repent?


Here again you say we must believe, but you have been arguing all along that there is nothing we can do and our belief isn’t sufficient enough, that we need the Holy Spirit for our belief to be good enough. You are going in circles; Jesus was straightforward and told us that we are to open the door to our salvation.

John 10
6   This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7   Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8   All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9   I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Revelation 3
19   As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20   Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

And what do the scriptures teach us on how we open that door? I’ve shared these verses with you many times and there are many more that say the same thing.

Acts 2
37   Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38   Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39   For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

And what is your response to all that I have been saying? You twist my words around and then attack me with things I never said. You use personal attacks, sarcasm and lies. You love trying to put labels on me and sorting me into a group and then attacking me on grounds I’m part of that group.

Your doctrine doesn’t lead people to Christ, it leaves them standing at the door while Jesus knocks and they don’t know they are to open the door because you told them that would be works and works is a dirty word to you. Jesus did everything for us and all we have to do is believe, repent and be baptized to receive the promise of the Holy Spirit. This is the Doctrine of Christ that we need to follow and the foundation of my beliefs.

Tawhano, one thing at a time...


Well  allow me to post what you said; so that we can look at it.

Please refer back to your Reply #81 on page 6 of the "Eternal Security" thread,  you posted the following:

at Reply # 81  Tawhano said;  (I will spilt what you posted and emboldened it, so that you can read what you posted)  

(I quote)


"The verse says they partook. How can an unsaved person be a partaker of the Holy Ghost or the heavenly gift? "

                                                                  "This verse is most definitely talking about people who were saved but did not endure to the end."

The verse below says the same thing, believers can fall away if they don’t hold steadfast in their faith.


Hebrews 3:13-14
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

(End of Tawhano's quote)

Tawhano,
Now that you have added this new explanation, then I beg your pardon as, perhaps I should have stated,

"you believe it, instead of you assume it",

this is your first error, because the next one, is a logical conclusion based on the first.  

And that is,................ that these of Heb 6 lost,  "their eternal life (salvation)".

I explained to you already, this viewpoint,  cannot be correct because of the two words, which drive the passage contained in these three verses, and they are the words "impossible", and "if".  And regarding the verse you refer to in Heb 3, to support what you believe, please notice the word "if" there also, it is clear from  the totality scripture, every person, who comes to FAITH, in Christ Jesus, has "received" Eternal Life presently, verse 14 of Heb 3, says;

i]if[/i], we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

That confidence spoken of  in this verse, is what begins the process which results in saving faith in Christ Jesus which is the end of the law for righteousness, to everyone who believes. (Rom 10:4)

Eph 1:12-14, speaks plainly of the process.

Because, everyone is held accountable under the law, until faith comes to them.  When Faith comes they is no longer under the law of commandments, but under the law of Faith (Rom 3:26-28).

If,  these had been given "eternal life (by Jesus), it would been impossible for them to lose their "eternal life".  

Because since Jesus doesn't lie.  

The doctrine of Christ is;    what God has declared about Him, thru Moses at,  Deut 18:18;  

Please follow this closely;

18  I will raise them up a Prophet .............................., and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Do you believe this to be true??

Then Jesus said;

Jhn 10
25  .....................   I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26   But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.  
27   My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28    And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.  
29    My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.  
30    I and my Father are one.

The words "ETERNAL LIFE" are synonomous with "LIFE EVERLASTING.

This is the correct understanding of this passage of scripture for this reason;  

This life which is in Jesus, is given as a free gift to all who receive the free gift of faith to believe, based on the finished work of Christ at the cross, and it is a free gift of God thru the Grace of God, it has nothing to do with our performance, we are saved by the power of God, and kept by that same power, forever, to the end,  

This is why it called "Eternal Life", And,  since it was given to us, while we were yet in sin, even our sinning, (thou the evil one accuse us to the father) cannot take it from us,  because the scriptures are crystal clear, that while we were yet without strength, dead sinners................ Christ died for us. And above all else , He ever liveth to make intercession for at the throne of Grace. (Heb 7:25) for he is our High Priest who ministers at the true tabernacle not made with human hands, where he offered up his own blood for our sins. (Heb 8:1-3)

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.  Because the free gift is of many offences unto justification. (Rom 5:6-21)

Now, is this NOT what you believe??................if not.......... where have I, gone wrong??

If they can lose their "eternal life" (which was given them by Jesus), then the truth is they never had "eternal Life" (They may have had some other kind of life, but it was not "Eternal").   Again,,, If it can be lost or taken away, then the words of Jesus are not true;

One cannot believe to the saving of the soul one moment, and then unbelieve what they believed, to the losing of the soul the next; These never believed, they continued in unbelief, even after partaking, tasting and having been enlightened by the Holy Gohst, they new enough about the way, but turned away ("fall away", Heb 6:5), this is why they can never be brought back, to repentance, because to enter the Kingdom of God, one must be properly clothed, not in our righteous wrags, but clothed in the righteousness of Christ.

For many are called, but few are chosen.

Here is Jesus words,

I give them eternal life and they shall never perish...  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
I and my Father are one.

 
Have you considered these verses;

Jhn 1
12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.    (Jhn 6:39-40)

So if, one has been given to Christ by the Father, HIS will, will be done in that individuals life. and whosoever; "believeth not, shall be damned".(Mk 16:16)

I haven't assumed anything, I have read your posts, and even posted your own words, and have shown you that the very Words of Jesus himself, refute what you have stated.

And you claim to believe the teachings of Christ, I am afraid, that is debateable,  unless you can clear this point up..

Blessings,

Petro

PS  Now as for the rest of your post, I will go thru it, as I find time, and respond as I am able.

  Define "all Christian doctrines"

Actually, the "doctrine of Christ"  is all that matters, it should  be said, Christian Doctrines should not include  anything that is not in the doctrine of Christ.

Now having said that their are other doctrines, which apply to those who are under the law.

Sorry I am not answering for Ollie., just putting in 2 my cents worth in.

Blessings,
Petro

I too ask a similar question.

Hi, John here: :)
I too find it incredulous how a 'professed believer' in the Masters BOOK can take a few verses from 2 John 9-11 and then deleate or void out its COMPLETE EVERLASTING GOSPEL & {AND] EVERLASTING COVENANT! Try DOCTRINE even mentioned by Word in 2 Tim. 3:16 of how it is to be studied in ALL SCRIPTURE! And Matt. 4:4's  EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDETH OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD as stated by the MASTER HIMSELF! A Doctrine of Christ bottled up in a few verses? It is BEYOND the 'fool'ish of Matt. 25! :'( :'(
-John

Tawhano,



You are ignoring my response to you concerning, this matter, you are still trying to make the word partaker of the Holy Gohst, as receiving the Holy Spirit herein, how have you tied those two together, at all, is beyond me..

The receiving of the Holy Spirit occurs after one receives the gift of Faith to believe to the saving of the soul, so, trusting the witness of the Holy Gohst while God the Father is drawing the indivudual to Christ is essential, and precedes the gift Faith to believe, followed by Jesus baptizing the individual with the Holy Spirit.

Notice,  Peter, who had not believed to the saving of the soul, at this time, professed to Jesus "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." (Mat 16:16), to which Jesus replied;

Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.  

This clearly was the work of the Holy Spirit drawing Peter to the truth concerning Jesus. Peter even terstifed

"Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life." (Jhn 6:68)................ when Jesus asked him

"Will ye also go away?".  

None of the apostles or disciples believed in Jesus, until after His resurrection.  

How do you reconcile, these facts.. they were not regenerated as of yet.. and yet, they testified the light of the truth that had been shed upon by the Holy Spirit, even Jesus confirmed it, when he answered Peter.  

This is clearly a testimony that they were partakers of the Holy Spirit (while they were yet in unbelief), who was working in them..bringing them ultimately to Faith.



You confuse the issue by assuming, that because the Holy Spirit of God the Father, draws unsaved people, to himself, that He might give them ultimately to Jesus (not all who are drawn are given, some come and consider and then leave, these are the ones of Heb 6), with one who has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, or sealed by the Holy Spirit.


One at a time;

1.Q.  How does one repent if they don't first believe?

A.  It is a process, the belief needed to come to repentance, has nothing to do with Jesus, just yet,  one must come to the truth, that he is a sinner, condemned to death because of sin, and that there is nothing he can do about this himself, God who knows the hearts of men, gives more light as this sinner desires more truth, concerning this matter, when he (the sinner) agrees with God that he is deserving of death,
the sinner responds at this point by repenting and  God the Spirit, who has been revealing the Gospel to this person, forgives his sin of un belief and allows him more perfectly to understand that God himself has provided a full pardon for his sins, , and is offering a free gift of faith to believe what he could never believe nor receive while in his natural state, he is mgiven to Christ and that faith when received thru the mercy and grace of God, is focused on the finished work of Christ shed blood atonement on the cross, it is then, that Jesus, baptizes (seals)the individual with the Holy Spirit,  now, because I am not God, I can't reveal to you exactly how and what order this occurs in, but I can say with surety, that all of these elements are inherent in the Gospel, and when perfectly understood, sinners are able to grasp by faith the Gift that regenerates the soul.

2.Q.  And how can they believe if they need the Holy Spirit to make their belief sufficient for salvation as you claim?

A.  The scritpture states plainly;

Faith cometh by hearing , and hearing by the Word  of God.(Rom 10:17)

Continued......................

Continued from previous post, to Tawhano's reply #35

 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.  (Jhn 6:45-47)


Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.  (jhn 14:10)

The words Jesus speaks are the words God puts in his mouth, remember Deut 18:18, and as you know God, is doing the selection of all those who he gives to Jesus, so the belief needed before He can be given to Jesus, is centered around Gods own words, which Jesus speaks even today, one must believe God, first; how can anyone believe Jesus, if one does not believe God first, only then will this persoin be given to Jesus, and Jesus will baptize this person with the Holy Spirit.

3. Q. And how do they receive the Holy Spirit if they don't first repent?

A.  To sum, up what I have told you, (I know I have given you this already), hear is the order according to scripture;  Jesus said;

It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.  (Jhn 6:45)

1.  Hear, the word of truth. (Rom 10:17)

2. Trust, one must trust the word of truth, the Gospel of your salvation. (Mk 1:15)

3.  Beleive God, Faith to believe in Jesus, is a gift of God, not of yourselves, lest anyone should boast (Eph2:8-9)

4.  Sealed, Filled, and Baptized may happen simultaneously, I don't know, at this point, but this is something Jesus does, and this same Conforter, who began a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: (Phil1:6)


Your attention is invited to Rev 3:19:20, above, your understanding of this passage is in error, these are beloved of Jesus, as verse 19 points out, contrast this verse with verse 8, where He speaking specifically to the church at Phildelphia, "I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it:, yet the door at the church at Laodecia was shut, whether the door was shut by man, that is to say they had departed from Him, since ultimetly He is that door, is not clear, what is clear is that He was rebuking them.


One thing you must learn to do, is listen carefully, and not jump to conclusions, if I have given you the impression, that one must possess the Holy Spirit before they come to faith in Christ, this is not correct, I don't believe I have said anything of the kind, inherent in what you believe is that very thought.

This is why, you are having trouble understanding this point, in the sport of fishing its called a 'birds nest", you need to work on it..



Quit whinning..

Your doctrine doesn't lead people to Christ, it leaves them standing at the door while Jesus knocks and they don't know they are to open the door because you told them that would be works and works is a dirty word to you. Jesus did everything for us and all we have to do is believe, repent and be baptized to receive the promise of the Holy Spirit. This is the Doctrine of Christ that we need to follow and the foundation of my beliefs.

Christians use this passage to somehow or other prove what they believe, but the context of this passage is written to the christian church at Ladocisians, in case you hadn't noticed, the context is a call to repentance and to overcome, as He overcame.  

You should pray when you come across verses you do not comprehend, taking them out of context, is nothing more than a pretext..

Blessings,
Petro

                           Here's an error
 The idea that a Son of God sent from eternity by the Father came down and took upon Himself human form collapses as totally erroneous and is exploded on considering the passages from the Word in which Jehovah Himself says that He is the Saviour and Redeemer, as the following:
 
Am I not Jehovah, and there is no God beside Me? There is no righteous God and Saviour beside Me. Isa. 45:21, 22.
 
I am Jehovah, and there is no Saviour beside Me. Isa. 43:11.
 
I am Jehovah your God, and you are not to acknowledge any God beside Me, and there is no Saviour beside Me. Hosea 13:4.
 
That all flesh may know that I am Jehovah your Saviour and your Redeemer. Isa. 49:26; 60:16.
 
As for our Redeemer, Jehovah Zebaoth is His name. Isa. 47:4.
 
Their Redeemer, the mighty Jehovah Zebaoth is His name. Jer. 50:34.  
 
Jehovah, my rock and my Redeemer. Ps. 19:14.
 
Thus spoke Jehovah, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, I am Jehovah your God. Isa. 48:17; 43:14; 49:7.
 
Thus spoke Jehovah, your Redeemer; I am Jehovah who makes all things, and I alone by Myself. Isa. 44:24.
 
Thus spoke Jehovah, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Jehovah Zebaoth; I am the First and the Last, and there is no God beside me. Isa. 44:6.
 
You are Jehovah our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name. Isa. 63:16.
 
I will take pity with eternal mercy, thus spoke your Redeemer Jehovah. Isa. 54:8. You had redeemed me, Jehovah of truth. Ps. 31:5.
 
Let Israel hope in Jehovah, for there is mercy with Jehovah, with Him is very much redemption. He shall redeem Israel from all his sins. Ps. 130:7, 8.
 
Jehovah Zebaoth* is His name, and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He shall be called the God of all the earth. Isa. 54:5.
 
From these and very many more passages anyone who has eyes, and a mind opened by using his eyes, can see that Jehovah God, who is one, came down and was made man in order to effect redemption.  

Can anyone fail to see this as clear as in morning light, so long as he pays attention to those very sayings of God which have been quoted?

Those, however, who are plunged in the shades of night as the result of convincing themselves that a second God was born from eternity, and that it was He who came down and redeemed us, close their eyes to those Divine sayings, and ponder with their eyes shut how to pervert them and make them square with their false ideas.

Harry
 

Harry,

So are you saying, the Jesus of the New Testament is the God of the Old Testament??

Because as you know, Jesus claimed to be the same "I am" of the Old Testament, and John opens his Book of Revelation with this revelation;  "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" (Rev 1:1), where He is revealed as that same God..

Jesus said;

Jhn 10
27  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31  Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32  Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33  The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

You may not understand what or whom Jesus, claimed to be, here at this passage, but the Jews who took up stones , understood perfectly well, that He stated, that He was God..

when He said;;

I and my father are one

This is the way, we understand the passage, and we agree, Jesus is the same Creator God of the Old Testament..

He still speaks today, to whosoever, will hear;

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.  (Jhn 8:24)  NWT

Thanks for sharing this truth..


Petro

Well this is interesting....How do you explain the next verse; it is one of many, which state plainly, states, that Jesus, is one and the same..

Feel free to compare this with, your verses;



For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.  (Lk 2:11)

And the Apostle Paul testifies; as he speaks concerning Jesus;

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.   (1 Tim 4:10)

and again;

  For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
  Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
  But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
(2 Tim 2:7-10)

  But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
  To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.  (Titus 1:3-4)

Certainly if, after having escaped defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,......... (2 Pet 2:20)



So Jesus the SaviorGod,  is not a God, He is the one and only creator God, as the scripture declares at Jhn 1:1..and rrevealed to be Jesus at vs 14 of the Gospel of John..


Petro

The Divine Trinity is in Our Lord Jesus Christ. That's why He asked that we follow Him, to take up the cross, that He is the way, the truth and the life

The Father and He are one as Soul and Body or as Divine and Human in Jesus Christ. In Jesus Christ the Divine and Human make one God, as in John 14: 8," He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father."

This is what the Lord meant:
"I am come from God" (John 8:42) - the Body came forth from the Soul.

"The Son can do nothing of Himself, - but what He seeth the Father do" (John 5:19) - the Body can do nothing of Itself, but what it is directed to do by the Soul.

"Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" (Matt. 16: 16) - The Messiah, the Body of the Infinite itself, which alone is Life-in-itself.

"This is My beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased" (Matt. 3:17) - the Divine Human in which it pleased the Lord to dwell while on earth.

"My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28) - the Soul is greater than the Body, since it directs it.

"No Man cometh unto the Father but by Me" (John 14:6) - Just as we cannot know a man's soul except insofar as his body reveals it.

All Christians should approach and worship the Lord only, because He the Father in the Human. Jehovah God became Man so we may approach Him as Man. It is the only way we can be able to understand God, by approaching Him as a Man.

 The Lord's prayer was meant for Him, not another person. He is the Our father in heaven.

Harry[/b]

Harry,

I see, you do understand exactly what the Jews understood, when Jesus, said "I and my Fatherm are one"

This has only been revealed to you by The Father from heaven..Praise Him..

You are correct..I agree totally with you.  Good post.