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    (http://www.duke.edu/~adw2/shroud/motiongifs/5s.gif) This is the Tremissis coin from Constantinople, AD 692 compared to the shroud. Look at the eyes on the coin, notice anything?

(http://www.duke.edu/~adw2/shroud/images/mov005a.jpg)


(http://www.duke.edu/~adw2/shroud/images/mov005b.jpg)

   Is the shroud an actual photograph of the Judge and Savior and creator for that matter of this world? Is this the cloth that Peter found lying in the tomb? Is this cloth a photographic testamonial of the resurrection of Jesus Christ?
I dare say I believe that it is! The question I have is "who" folded the cloth or "napkin" that wrapped his head and left it folded in the tomb by itself, and why was that cloth folded, and the other left laying there. If I was Peter I would have taken both to show to the other disciples. What did John "see" in that tomb that made him believe Jesus was resurrected before the scriptures were revealed to him? He didn't assume the body was stolen but he saw something and believed Jesus was resurrected.

      Who folded the "napkin" that wrapped Jesus head and placed it by itself away from the cloth lying there and why?

John 20: 4: So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.
   5: And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.
   6: Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
   7: And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
   8: Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.

    There were others in the tomb before Peter and John. Angels were in the tomb. If the shroud of Turin is the photographic evidence of Jesus' resurrection and was His burial shroud then God the father would have known an image would be left. Did God the father want the image and photographic evidence to be on the shroud? Could God the Father have instructed angels to remove the "head napkin cloth" and to fold it and place it aside before the resurrection so the "photographic image" could be left without blocking out His face? During the resurrection did Jesus body pass through the cloth so it fell flat with the top falling against the bottom?
   Jesus could walk through walls and locked doors, could he not pass through a cloth? Who folded the "head napkin" and WHY?

   By the way, the body on the shroud of turin has a ponytail. Part of His beard is torn out. Scripture tells us that Jesus was not esteemed. Did he have long hair as a disgrace? I have long hair in a ponytail. Why? Because I believe Jesus did. I wear my hair as a disgrace of sorts. I've been offered $1,500 by my old jewish boss some years ago to cut my hair. He said it made me look like a Jesus freak. David Crosby wrote a song called "almost cut my hair"  and in the lyrics he says "Almost cut my hair, happened just the other day, its getting kind of long, could have said it was in my way, but I didn't and I wonder why, feel like letting my freak flag fly, and I feel like I owe it to someone..."and when I first became a true Christian I was listening to that song and I to felt I owed it to someone, Jesus, so I have long (clean) hair in a Steven Segal type ponytail and I wear it as a disgrace for Jesus. By the way, ever seen a statue of the minute man from Lexington/Concord, you know the revolutionary war? They had ponytails! Our founding fathers looked like hippies! That was the style. To them their hair wasn't long. For all you long hair haters out their, some of us long hairs wear our hair long because we believe Jesus did and we wear it as a disgrace to remind people to judge us on what comes out of our mouths and not the length of our hair. Some of you better be hoping Jesus decided to cut his hair with all the bad mouthing you do.

    Jesus approved of John the Baptist having long hair, where do you think Nazarites got their instructions? Samson got in all sorts of trouble when his hair was cut and God set the rules for nazarites. Well some people take their own personal oaths to God and some choice to do it by wearing their hair long, I'm one of them.
 
                                                        Paul2

Garbage, phoney, bunk etc.

    How much research have you done? Nobodies been able to produce anything even close. The threads are dehydrated but only the top most fibers and theirs no color pigment on the cloth. Do "ALOT" of research and explain why.

Blah blah I've seen plenty.  The simple fact it was in the hands of nuns makes it null and void.

Jesus never took the Nazarene vow, obviously he drank of the fruit of the vine.

I love people that think long hair is OK.

1Co 11:14  Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

So now you think it's not a shame or that God changed his mind?  Or maybe even that Paul didn't know what he was talking about?

Samson also wore his hair in locks and if you are going to pretend to take the Nazarene vow I sure hope you are following it to the T else you need to shave your head completely.

Haha, Sapph is right, you have shave you hear and burn the hair, I think.  ;D I don't get why you didn't take 1500 to cut your hair a little shorter! Unless you know Martial Arts like Steven, the Segal-esque ponytail is a bit much.

 
On the coin, Paul2, very interesting!  Thank you.

The shroud does present some very curious anomolies, for the scientific crowd.  BAR(Bib'l Arch'y Review)magazine did a cover article on it several years ago, focussing only on the pollen question:  Is the pollen embedded in the linen fibres from ancient Palestine??

Also, the image does seem virtually photographic.  How was that done??  So long ago.  I forget what the earliest date is that they can reliably authenticate the shroud to--whether it's 1700, 1200, or earlier.

And a very interesting point, Paul2--so you think the reason Peter didn't believe the body was stolen was b/c of the photographic evidense left on the shroud??

Dr. James Kennedy of the Coral Ridge Ministries(a strong supporter of Alabama's Chf. Justice Roy Moore, recently) gives a very stirring account of the Shroud, on audio tape.  

Pony tails.   Hmmm.  Yes, Segal is impressive with his, with the martial arts, and all that bone-cracking, snap-popping.  Really sort of a "Christ-figure", I saw him as, when Christ returns.  But then I found out Segal was, um.... well, with the family baby sitter....(ahem)...?   And some other "news" slightly tainted of...um...the Mafia(in real life--not the movies)??

Ponytails come across to me as just suspicious--that this person is trying to make a point.  Usually anyone who's trying to make a point, has an axe to grind.  If they have an axe to grind, then who's to say they aren't going to grind it on me??

I mean hair is hair.  Paul underlying point is purely practical--men are "laborers", long hair is a nuisance.  Didn't you just hear about that guy this summer, in CA(?), got his long hair caught in an amusement park ride??   Oh, I understand what happend there was horrible.

Practically, what's a man doing with long hair??  Other than a fashion statement.  And what are (Christian) men doing making fashion statements?  

Other than to keep your head warm(they say 40% of body heat exits an uncovered head)...

    I didn't want the $1500! I'm not for sale and neither is my hair!

    Let me explain a few things. I work with alot of young hippie types, and because I have long hair they listen to me. They see me as the wise old hippie. They can't relate to short haired business types or holier than thou Christian types. When was the last time you taught young long haired hippies about Jesus? One of my young friends converted, and went to India to do missionary work. Two of my friends are going on a pilgramage to Israel in November for 6 months. I had bible studies with these young hippie types in VW buses, camping with them, I worked with them shoulder to shoulder and I was their foreman. I reached out to people most Christians are afraid of or just plain ignored. I bought them bibles and hylite markers and showed them why I believe in Jesus. I taught them prophecy, doctrine, and now some of them are teachers. Try approaching a group of pot smoking hippies wearing a business suit with short hair and preaching to them, good luck! I came across as a "been there, done that" type without being judgmental and was excepted as the wise old elder who finally found truth. Paul said I become all things to all people to win them all. Well theres plenty of short haired holier than thou's out there but very few of them are evangelizing the new age hippie types. Oh I suppose some try but are they received and do they have results to show for their efforts. Many of my young friends have come to me and thanked me for taking the time to explain the bible and Jesus and admit that if I didn't look the way I did they wouldn't have listened. I have my own mission and Jesus knows my heart. To you I am a "shame" but to the people I have led to Jesus I am not. I seek crowns in heaven, not money or the praise of the "holier than thou" types that would never bother witnessing to long hairs.

    Its funny to me that so many people will quote the hair passage but in their Church women will speak, and preach.
They seem to forget the passage of women remaining silent in the Churches! Jesus uses me long hair and all. He died on the cross so that those with long hair could also receive salvation, and I bring to them the gospel, I buy them Bibles and study the bible with them so they will be able to defend their faith and witness to others. As Jesus said, let he without sin cast the first stone! Go try to convert some hippies to Christianity and come back when you have results.
    The world has enough holier than thou's but not enough evangelists that are willing to approach people they look down on. Jesus went to sinners, not to the temple where the "good" people were. You can't evangelise in a church, people their already know the gospel. Reach out to those who nobody else will preach to.

    By the way, nobody has tried to witness to me in 13 years, no not one. They must assume because I have a ponytail I must deserve to go to the lake of fire, that I'm unworthy of the Gospel. Isn't that nice of the short haired Christians out there? The only group that has witnessed to me was the Jehovah's witnesses, who teach lies instead of truth. The cults will try to convert long hairs but not many Christians do. Try witnessing to a long hair and start off telling them their hair is to long and is sinful, and critize everything they do and see how far you get. You will turn them off to the truth. Faith must come before repentance because without faith repentance is IMPOSSIBLE!

    You can explain to God when you get to heaven why you didn't bother trying to witness to the long haired people, me, I'll point to the long haired friends of mine before His throne
and explain that I thought they were worth it. God knows my heart and He knows your heart. Jesus died for sinners and we are all sinners, short haired sinners and long haired sinners, and even bald sinners. Seeing you can tell me to cut my hair you should condemn the next woman who speaks in church as well so you won't be a hypocrite.

    I wonder how many people will ignore me from now on seeing I have long hair, no matter what truth I put forth.

                                                                                                                                                       Paul2

    I'm not a Steven Segal fan, I was trying to explain that I'm not a dirty greasy hippie. I appear clean cut from the front because my hair is pulled back. I'm not making a fashion statement either. My hair works as a witnessing tool to long haired hippies that think to be a Christian one must be "perfect." If you tell someone that when they accept Jesus as savior they must change everything at once they won't accept Jesus. I let Jesus change their hearts. He will convict them Himself and lead them to repentance. If you try to get people to repent all things at once they will be turned off. Jesus can get the job of repentance done far better than I.
                                                    Paul2

:snore:  :sigh:  Excuses excuses, a plenty.

I guess because I have my head shaved I must be a holier than thou, business type.  Next excuse please.

First of all, I believe the shroud is authentic. There are too many things about it that can't be explained as anything but the burial cloth of Christ. Especially the inverted image. I believe it is massive energy similar to what I experienced when I received the Holy Spirit. Most of the scientists believe that the image was made by some form of radiation.

As for the long hair issue, I do believe that Paul 2 is wearing his hair that way to make a point. But we all dress however we dress to make a point, whether it's to look clean-cut, sexy, unsexy, etc. I personally dress for my husband. I know he'd love me if i were bald, but I've decided i want to make it easier on him.

I just want to add that I don't think that the image on the shroud showed up right away much as pictures don't develop until they're in the right atmosphere.

Ha, haha, ha! Right… Maybe you should spend less time with the Hippies, and more time in a CHURCH! Most churches do not have women preachers, many church DO that that Verse literally. Most of the people here in this board do! The vast majority of churches follow that verse.



Stop make excuses! Hippie and “freaks” judge me all the time because I wear A&F or Old Navy, they call me a sell-out ,a prep. They don’t even know me. Don’t start on “the people of the church are to judgmental” crap! The People of the world are to judgmental! CHRISTIAN hippies are to judgmental! I’ve seen these “alternative Culture” outreaches, the workers, the people minister, all look down on me because I’m not wearing all black and fish *FISHSLAP* net shirts. I don’t have a Vertical industrial, so I must no be saved, I have bought into the ways of the World. To be honest, most non-saved freaks are fine with me, they get to know me, and they think I’m fine. It is the Christian ones who seem to shun me, thinking I can never save their non-Christian counterparts.


 

Hey, here is an idea, maybe they see you as a Christian, they see you saving these hippies, and they know you are a Christian, so they don’t see a point in witnessing! Maybe they see the spirit of God in you ,and THAT is why they don’t witness to you. Why does it matter if they didn’t witness you to, are you TRYING to look like a sinner? Uh? You make a big deal about people not witnessing to you, it sounds to me like you seem to me that if you look like you do, and people don’t try to witness to you, it is because they see through the outer layer, and see a Man of God. Like all Sub-culture’s, all you are doing are looking for reasons to be offended!  



Turning things around, how many Preps do you witness to? How many Yuppies? How many Marine-look alikes? How many hicks? Seems to me you have just as much to answer for as the Preps, Yuppies, Marine-look alikes, and hicks who didn’t witness to hippies.

Here we go, the Sub-culture “No one understand me, they are all close-minded. The are to judgments to see that I’m right and they are wrong”


 
1500 dollar that could be used to feed starving children, or clothes cloth children is going to waste in you bosses bank account  because you have to much pride to cut something as trivial as your hair off. Maybe you could have shipped the 1500 off to your friend in India, help him buy a few bibles in one of the many languages spoken over there, but NO, God forbid you let them cut you constantly growing hair!



Ha, haha, ha! Right… Maybe you should spend less time with the Hippies, and more time in a CHURCH! Most churches do not have women preachers, many church DO that that Verse literally. Most of the people here in this board do! The vast majority of churches follow that verse.



Stop make excuses! Hippie and “freaks” judge me all the time because I wear A&F or Old Navy, they call me a sell-out ,a prep. They don’t even know me. Don’t start on “the people of the church are to judgmental” crap! The People of the world are to judgmental! CHRISTIAN hippies are to judgmental! I’ve seen these “alternative Culture” outreaches, the workers, the people minister, all look down on me because I’m not wearing all black and fish *FISHSLAP* net shirts. I don’t have a Vertical industrial, so I must no be saved, I have bought into the ways of the World. To be honest, most non-saved freaks are fine with me, they get to know me, and they think I’m fine. It is the Christian ones who seem to shun me, thinking I can never save their non-Christian counterparts.


 

Hey, here is an idea, maybe they see you as a Christian, they see you saving these hippies, and they know you are a Christian, so they don’t see a point in witnessing! Maybe they see the spirit of God in you ,and THAT is why they don’t witness to you. Why does it matter if they didn’t witness you to, are you TRYING to look like a sinner? Uh? You make a big deal about people not witnessing to you, it sounds to me like you seem to me that if you look like you do, and people don’t try to witness to you, it is because they see through the outer layer, and see a Man of God. Like all Sub-culture’s, all you are doing are looking for reasons to be offended!  



Turning things around, how many Preps do you witness to? How many Yuppies? How many Marine-look alikes? How many hicks? Seems to me you have just as much to answer for as the Preps, Yuppies, Marine-look alikes, and hicks who didn’t witness to hippies.

Haha, Sapph is right, you have shave you hear and burn the hair, I think.

I do not wish to join this discussion, I just want to know what I have to do with this...

I was writing two posts at once, one about/to you, and this one. I meant to type “saved” but I mixed posts and typed Sapph.  Everyone got the jest of what I was saying, and people had already quoted it, so I didn’t bother editing it.

Off the topic of the Shroud.....

Why is that God can't be equipping each one of us differently? The unsaved come in all different shapes and sizes, as do the witnesses for the Lord. I have enough faith in my Lord to know that He will connect those who need to be connected. He made us all different for a reason.... We all have different strengths and weaknesses and what seems to be 'odd' or 'different' in another most definitely can be used as a witnessing tool!  ;)

     Amen and thanks Sincereheart. By all the other posts I fiqure I've burned my bridge here and might as well move on. They say the truth will set you free but also it has its price.

     I'm not in any sub-culture. I wear old navy clothes, coach soccer for my 8 year old sons team. I go on every field trip and am at his school about every week for something. I read some of the posts about Mel Gibson's "the Passion" and that prompted my post. I'm not a "legalist". I believe everyone sins, but some try to pretend they have reached perfection already.

    I remember about 20 years ago someone witnessed to me and in the process started bashing "the Beatles" who were one of my favorite bands. They went on an on about how their music was evil. I couldn't see their point at the time and tuned them out because they said I should throw their albums away. Now in hind sight I see the point they were trying to make, but at the time it seemed outrageous. I believe in predestination and believe there are certain paths that are destined to cross. I'll witness to anyone if the Holy Spirit moves me to. I have found out over the years that you can try to tell everybody but if the Holy Spirit is not leading you, its all in vain. Someone else can reach someone I can't, and I can reach some people they can't. Christians are all part of the body of Christ, I happen to be the ponytailed member. Drive a corvette and everybody else driving a vette will wave and nod to you. Wear a nascar hat and nascar fans will wave to you (except Jeff Gordon fans who sometimes get the middle finger ;). Point is everybody has people they can relate to. People first think I'm a liberal, because I have long hair, and all of a sudden I sneak up on them and reveal I'm a conservative. I listen to Christian radio as well as Rush, O'Reilly, Hannitty, Savage and many others. I can go from politics and suddenly switch to Biblical prophecy while analizing current events. People don't see it coming and it works surprisingly well. Israel is a great topic to lead into the Bible. 9/11 made many people more receiptive to the gospel as long as you tie in all the prophetic details to give the Bible some credibility in a world thats is trying to escape from the bible and the truth it contains.

    When God convicts me to cut my hair I will. Its between God and I for He alone knows my heart fully, more than even I.

    I guess I should have "hid" the length of my hair from this forum (tucking hair up inside my #2 Rusty Wallace hat) O.k. I'm presentable now (fan blows hat off) Oh No, theres goes all my credibility. Time to find another forum I guess, and this time I guess I should keep my hat on.

                                                             Paul2

That's fine to me, Paul2.  You shouldn't rush off on the hair deal.  I was really more interested in your shroud topic.

That's fine that you adopt the ways of whatever culture, or subculture that you're witnessing to--within reason, of course.  Obviously, you don't become a drunk to witness to drunks!!(hehe)


Indeed, for many of the foreign missions, this is a very big deal--learning the customs of the target group(eating with chopsticks, etc.).

A ponytail is fine to me--if it brings people to Jesus, then that's the point.

I appreciate your posts.  It sounds fine to me.

     Thanks Symphony 8)

                                                       Paul2

I would dearly like to believe this shroud wrapped the body of my Saviour.  To be able to truly believe this was His Dear face on earth...but, because it is in the hands ot the catholic church...I cannot.
Love..Tamara.

Oklahoma Howdy to Brother Paul2,

I've read nearly all of your posts, and it is obvious that you have Jesus in your heart. My brother, I love you in Christ. Please stay and share HIS WORD and fellowship with us.

In Christ,
Tom

 

    Thanks for the vote of confidence Tom, I'll stick around.

                                                             Paul2
                         

    Tamara,

    I have never really given to much thought about who has the shroud, but have been convinced by the amount of evidence I have researched on the shroud itself. I won't care if Hitler had possession of it if it is really the burial shroud of Christ, and the "proof" of His resurrection. The Ark of the covenant was once in enemy hands, but the Israelites welcomed it back. Maybe the Catholics have it because they need to see the "blood" and the price of Salvation. Maybe they were supposed to realize that the cost of Salvation was the blood of the Son of God and not good works. Maybe they need it more than others. I don't know the answers, but have many questions myself.

     I have studied enough about the shroud to realize that even today it can't be duplicated. Scientists can tell us what the shroud is not but can't explain or recreate what it is.

    The amount of forensic evidence is astounding. The chemicals in the blood that only appear when a body is tramatized by severe repeated beatings on the same area. Just so many details a forger could not have known about, the fact that the image is caused by the top most fibers of the cloth being dehydrated as if by radiation. Dirt on the cloth from the feet being the exact same chemical composition as found in Jerusalem, pollen from plants only found in Jerusalem.

    Far to many details for a forger to have for seen the need of placing on the cloth long before science was even a consideration.

    I don't care what people think either way but I feel its a shame that we have a photograph of Jesus Christ, the first photograph ever taken of anybody, and yet some can't apprieciate it because of who has it. The Knights Templar also may have had the shroud in the possession for a time. But so did Peter, and Thomas. Some things are "bigger" than those who possess them. I believe Noah's Ark is on the mountains of Ararat in Turkey and believe its possible for relics from the ark maybe passed down from generation to generation of Muslim families in Turkey. I know there are many forgeries of relics but in the last 600 years noone can come close to recreating the shroud with all the details correct even using todays modern science to accomplish it never mind trying to recreate it from things only available in the 1300s.

     To me the person that owns an object is not significant to the object itself. If Saddam had a piece of the ark, the tower of babel or some other piece of history, it wouldn't change the historic relevance of the object to me. Don't allow man to steal what is possibly a great gift.

    If you invented the first camera what you take the first picture of? I would take my sons picture first, as his father. I think God the Father took a picture of His Son and the price he paid to redeem us, blood and all. Something to ponder I guess.
                                                           Paul2

   

Hi Paul,
I hear you.  I did watch a video of the shroud and it bore complete resemblance to that described of the death of Jesus. Even to the crown of thorns.
I have looked at the web about the shroud since my letter, and was astonished to read that they actually do have a tiny fragment of blood and wanted to clone this.  I don't know if they would dare. But it is on the web.  
I realize it's being in the catholic hands may be a good, safe place for it IF it IS the actual shroud of Jesus.  But, the vatican is high on my list for deception.
They also have "crying statues" and statues which "bleed".
This is why I question the authenticity of the shroud.
As to it's finding and keeping by those involved...once again I am sceptical where the catholic vatican is concerned.
I don't trust the vatican nor it's spokespeople and that's the bottom line.
The church is too powerful and too great at deception to even believe the video.
However, Jesus needs to leave nothing behind to prove He was here on earth and the son of God to me.
God said it, I believe it, and that's it.
I would much rather Saddam have it than the vatican. It's being in the Middle East would be more natural to me than being on display where it is at present.
Sorry about my sceptisism.  But......if the vatican had never deceived people at any time in it's history I would not be such a sceptic about the place today.
It just appears to me that all the vatican wants to do is have people's eyes turned towards it.  And, these eyes of mine refuse to look.
In love..Tamara.

There is one other thing too.....wasn't it a "shame" for a man to have long hair?  Jesus had no shame....

That shroud could have had anybody wrapped in it - IF all they write about it is true...

Tamara.

     Anybody that was crucified, crowned with thorns, flogged by a romans whip with the tiny lead dumbells at the tip, speared in the side, has parts of his beard torn out, and lets not forget, radiated to burn the image into the top fibers of the shroud. Not to many "anybodies" fit that criterea.

    As for the long hair, Isaiah said of Him he was not esteemed, nor desired by men. I find it strange that so many people would be disappointed in Jesus if he had long hair. What if Salvation is brought by a long haired Jesus, would you rather go to hell? The Phareses rejected him over trival things and misconceptions. Jesus drank wine, that can't be the Messiah, He allows his diciples to work on the sabbath by plunking the wheatheads of wheat and eating them, he can't be the messiah, he heals on the Sabbath, this can't be him...

    Jesus spoke this world into existance, He made the nazarite rules. He made exceptions to the long hair disgrace for them and maybe just maybe he wore long hair as a disgrace for those to "pure" to understand that he is the Law.
His own people rejected Him an esteemed Him not. Would you still esteem Him if he had a shoulder length ponytail. Where in the old testament does it say long hair is wrong? Paul said it to the greeks, and didn't say it was a sin but a disgrace. The cross is an offense to some, as is blood without which there is no forgiveness of sin. Some people find beards offensive and Jesus had a beard that was pulled out according to Isaiah. Becareful of making rules for the rule maker. Jesus just may surprize you and have longer hair than you tolerate and if He does good luck telling Him to get a hair cut.

                                                             Paul2
                                 

   

Oklahoma Howdy to Paul2,

Brother, you have raised some interesting issues that are worthy of further study. I find the information you've shared about the Shroud of Turin to be fascinating.

One of the questions might be, "how was it preserved these 2,000 years"? The same question could be asked about the Holy Bible. I'm positive that I know the answer about the Holy Bible. Almighty God wanted it preserved.

In Christ,
Tom

   Take a look at these sites

http://www.historian.net/shroud.htm

Take the "guided tour" offered at this site http://www.delayedreaction.com/

Oklahoma Howdy to Paul2,

Thanks for the information sites on the Shroud of Turin. There is a massive amount of information and numerous links. I can see that it would take considerable time to scratch the surface on this subject. I'll have to go back when I have more time.

I find it interesting that arguments for and against were made with conclusions based on both. Great sites - THANKS!

In Christ,
Tom

I was going to let it go and all but I'm rather sick and tired of all the "different walks" folk and the excuses they give.  I show from scripture what is considered to be a shame and I'm now a "holier than thou business type".  Sounds pretty deffesive for someone that's so sure of themselves.

As Christians we are to be in the world yet NOT OF THE world.  Somehow there seems to be a new mantra that you need to be of the world in order to witness to someone.  I have also now been accused by two of these so called "different walks" folk of not witnessing to someone simply because I don't accept there lifestyle.  Funny last I checked I as a Christian I can't accept anyone's lifestyle without Christ.  I have yet to see why I don't witness to bikers, hippies and the lot just because I believe the WORD and follow it for my attire and such.

It's also funny because I don't even own a suit but whatever that means little to those who still wish to live for themselves.

I had long hair, and I have a tatto on my arm (that I wish could be gone.  It's not offensive or anything either).  Why will we say it's ok to have long hair to reach hippies but it's not ok to be drunk to reach the drunk?  There is no difference between the two to me.  I don't feel the need to do drugs to witness to the druggies out there.

I know of a lot of wrong ways like drugs and the rest because I was already there.  The world doesn't approve of long hair, drunks, or druggies but somehow Christians should be these people just to reach them?  I find this to be foolish at best.  One does not need to be something to witness to them.  I will witness to whomever I can.  I may use much more caution when witnessing to certain people but only because of personal safety.  If a biker gets all wriled up for some reason, and asks me to leave I'm certainly not going to badger them.  I know I can't go into certain meighborhoods without certain people with me as well.  I might get shot just for showing my face without even saying a word.

Regardless, we can still witness to whomever without trying to be like them.  Let's stay away from being part OF the world and just be IN the world.  Let our light so shine that they may come to us and see us, and not dim the light so people can still hide in the darkness.

Ditto.

    Your CLASSIC, you have a tattoo and your giving me a lecture on what the Bible teaches about long hair. What does the Bible say about tattoos?

    I truely believe Jesus had long hair, thats why I have long hair. If I thought Jesus had short hair I would have never let mine grow. If I thought Jesus had a tattoo... No, I don't like tattoos, and the Bible says not to tattoo ourselves.

     You said you wished your tattoo was gone, well it could be if you were willing to pay big bucks to have it removed, but you must figure that it doesn't matter because you already have it. You said you believe the Word and follow the attire? Your body has a tattoo, thats not following the attire very well. I realize that you probably got it before you were a believer but ...hey, you have a tattoo. Some little old lady might find that offensive and not Christian like. You must feel like its ok to keep it though, somehow while your preaching on the long hair, it slips your mind that your a tattood HYPOCRITE!!!!!!

     How many buzz cut pictures of Jesus have you seen? Don't artist know that long hair is shameful and they are portraying Jesus in a shameful way? It seems it never bothered anyone until now adays when a tattood Christian will give a ponytailed Christian a speech on following the word!

    Question for you... If your tattoo had 666 on it, would you keep it? I'll bet you'd have it removed. You'd be crazy not to have it removed, why? Because the Bible tells us the fate of those who accept the mark of the beast. The tattoo you have must somehow be alright then? HYPOCRITE!!!!!!!!!

    I'm sorry, I'm being mean, and I know it. I'm just trying to make a point and I'm not really attacking you because I understand. But still theres a saying... people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones... or should it be ... people with tattoos shouldn't bash those with long hair.

    Get your tattoo removed and then tell me to cut my hair, or keep your tattoo and don't tell me to cut my hair. Take your pick.

   P.S. I'm not cutting my hair until I'm convinced that Jesus requires it of me. I'm convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that the shroud is His photograph and it has a ponytail.

   No hard feelings but I found it fascinating that you'd confess to the tattoo after all the "different walks" holier than thou stuff. Your not holier than thou after all are you?

psps  the length of my hair doesn't affect my ability to debate or preach, or teach. You wouldn't know I had long hair if I didn't tell you as I wouldn't know about your tattoo. Drunks can't teach or preach or comprehend the Bible. Try to debate with a drunk, good luck.

    Don't worry about the tattoo with me, I don't judge you anymore than you judge me 8)
                                                         Paul2

   

Tamara:  ...but, because it is in the hands ot the catholic church...I cannot.
Love..Tamara.


     ;D

I'm sorry about that remark.  But, I can't truly trust the vatican.  There are so many questionable things about their crying statues, bleeding statues etct; so how can I believe that they have the ACTUAL shroud which was wrapped around the mortal body of the Son Of God?

I know all there is to know about the shroud.  But, I still cannot trust the vatican.  The shroud in which the body of Jesus was wrapped would be 2000 years old.  Cloth then was not made like cloth today.
I'm sorry and I ask your forgiveness, but, I cannot trust the vatican.

Love...Tamara.

I'm sorry, I forgot to put this quote in my letter above letter.
You see, I believe the vatican has told so many lies that they can't stop!  And, I wouldn't put it past them to do the same to a human being during the reformation as was done to Jesus. After all, they have a terrific museum to get the coins out of!  And, the vatican is a vast establishment.  The Shroud, to me, has just become another idol of the established church of Rome.
Once again...I don't trust the vatican.
Love...Tamara.

I don't ever let my tatto show either.  You can feel free to call me a hypocrite all you want.  It matters little.  Do you have the five g's to pony up and let it get removed so it doesn't just further scar my body?  If so feel free to donate it and let me get it removed.  No little old ladies would ever see my tattoo because I make efforts to not let it show.  You are proud of your shame and I am not.  See the difference.  Probably not because you get too wrapped up in prophecy.  So do tell how many times have you toked up to witness?   ::)

I've yet to be around hippies who don't feel the need to be constantly stoned ESPECIALLY when they think they are getting deep (sigh that's a whole thing of it's own).  You are ACTIVELY doing a shame, while mine is from the past.  You can't seem to distinguish between the two, but that's no surprise to me.

A women who was once a prostitute has done much wrong yet can she change that which was done?  No so I suppose she couldn't tell others about how it's wrong to be a prostitute or even promicuous.  I'm not busy judging you either which is funny you get all hyped up about.  I'm telling you that the bible declares us to be apart while you are clearing saying to be assimilated.

Tell you you what.  When you are done with your shroud idol come on back maybe we can talk.  Until then you and all the others who need signs to believe have fun.  I don't need anything earthly (aside from the bible if we want to call that earthly) to have faith.  I could care less about future prophecy as well.  All I need to know is that someday I will die and if I do so without Jesus I will be in Hell.  It's that easy.

Why do I bother you're not the listening type?

Ooook.  First of all, we do not know what Jesus looked like, other than the fact ( in paraphrase ) He wasn't much to look at.  He wasn't the attractive fellow that drew attention because of His appearance.  We don't know if He had long hair.  It is doubtful as Paul denounces it in the passage in 1 Corinthians.  However, I find it interesting that Paul doesn't say what is considered long, other than to compare it to the hair of a woman.  And his point was more for the stature of each gender in prayer and prophesying - the man in the image of God being uncovered, the woman in the image of man being covered.  But the point of the passage is often missed.  If the man is to have short hair, then the woman is to have her head covered in prayer as well.  How many women follow that?  My wife doesn't cover her head, nor do I expect her too.  I'm bald by choice and by nature  ;D.  Does that make me more godly than another?  As Paul says..."judge for yourselves."

I will say practically, that few people spoke to me when I had the preacher's haircut.  It wasn't until I was clean shaven that people related to me.  Doors opened that I tried before to pry open.  Am I suggesting a pragmatic approach?  Hardly!  Rather, I believe God those sinners He's redeemed inspite of their sin...so would He not use them inspite of their hair?

As far as the women and covering their head, I have gone round about with people on that one.  I hear one side say it's a physical garment.  Then I hear the other side say that because of another passage that claims the womens hair is a covering that settles it.  

Then there is always the side that just doesn't care, they also have women preachers and stuff too some divorced even.  I think you know how I feel about them.  ;)

Oh!  So I suppose you're against women preachers now too?  Wait!  Sooo am I!   ;D  Yah, I can see the passages approach to the woman having her hair as a covering.  I also can see how styles have changed through the ages, and what was long then may not be now, or visa versa.  Take the founding fathers.  They all wore ponytails!  Small ones, but ones nontheless.  In other words, I've always believed (and possibly wrongly so) that it was having the ability to differentiate between the two genders.  Paul even eludes to that in the passage.  He is pointing out the necessity of difference to reflect the standing of each before God and in light of God.  I've seen long haired guys I'd never doubt were guys, and yet I've seen others that made you wonder until you saw their face...

Can't listen to women preacher's myself All!

When I was younger and had long hair I had a few people say "excuse me miss".  Now to be totally fair about it I did always think they weren't the quickest of people seeing that I wasn't a small person.  I was 5' 9" and weighed about 230 and had a gotee(chin only).  I also have what you might call "football" shoulders.  If I was a woman I'd be one ugly woman.  Still I think it shows exactly why men should have short hair.

Jas,

I was from the day of the mullet (can't recall if that's the name for it or not...), and I had one!  Rather long, down to about the middle of my back.  But never once did anyone ever think I was a woman.  Oh well.  I like being bald better anyway.   ;D

Tamara,

Amen sister!

That's not really long hair.  It's just pure confusion. hehehe  

http://www.mulletsgalore.com/ (http://www.mulletsgalore.com/)

Hey was it anything like this:
 (http://www.mulletsgalore.com/other/elias_j_swinton/the_viking/the_viking.jpg)

  (tucking hair up under hat) Hypocrite, now we're even, both hiding our shame. Why should I pay for the tattoo on YOUR body? I wouldn't expect someone to pay for my haircut.


     "Too wrapped up in prophecy?"  Heres a little fact for you, 4/5ths of the Bible was prophetic at the time it was written. Prophecy began in Genesis and ends in Revelation. The Bible is a prophetic Book. God gave us His word on events that were prophetic from the beginning, the Messiah, for instance.

    I'm not to wrapped up in prophecy, I seek to understand the prophecies God gave to be understood. God gave us a mystery to be solved, not to be ignored. What do you think He was just wasting His breath, so to speak? The book of Revelation starts with "the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is being revealed in this book. This is not important to you? How could you not be interested in the prophecies and revelations of Jesus Christ, which were written for us to have and understand His word and will? Well, there goes 4/5ths of the Bible which was prophetic.

     I have never "toked up" to witness.


     So as long as I "hide" my shame and wear a hat I'll be O.K., just like as long as you wear a long sleeved shirt your O.K. We just better not go swimming then right? 8)


    funny, I'm the only parent at my sons school with a pony tail. I'm not assimilating all that well. By the way the Bible also tells us not to have contempt for prophecy. I'll never understand a Christian that has no desire to know all the Lord has given for him to understand.


    I don't idolize the shroud, I have respect for it because I believe that the life force blood of Jesus Christ that was shed for our redemption is on that cloth. I don't need the shroud to believe, or any other "signs", God's word and His prophecies have convinced me of the truth of the Bible, and Jesus Christ. You could "care less" about future prophecy? Like Jesus coming back to establish His kingdom? Thats not important to you? I'll let you in on a secret, its important to God! The Bible does not contain anything that is not important. Jesus Christ coming to reign over His creation is the most important part of the Bible, along with Salvation. We only have a few of the words Jesus spoke, so we should pay close attention to everything He had to say. If its in the Bible its important and meant to be studied and understood.

    Sounds like escaping hell is your primary goal, not understanding Jesus and His revelation that was given to you.
Maybe you don't understand prophecy but what gives you the right to decide I spend to much time on it? Perhaps the reason I can understand prophecy is because I'm willing to share my studies with others. Some people want to study prophecy, and I believe we should. I believe one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is understanding prophecy, and I'm thankful for the gift. You have your purpose and I have mine. God still uses me long hair and all. God only uses sinners because thats all there is on earth, sinners. Theres two types, ones that knows their sinners, and ones that pretend their not sinners. People sin everyday and aren't even aware of it. They consider themselves "good". Well I'm a sinner and don't deny it. I've never met anyone that could keep ALL THEIR THOUGHTS CAPTIVE PERFECTLY! Our self righteousness is filty rags before the Lord. Theres only one that is perfect, Jesus Christ.
   
     I just happen to look forward to Jesus Christ Rapturing His Church to be with Him, is there something wrong with wanting to be with Jesus, if thats His will? I look forward to His Kingdom and eterity with Him. I teach prophecy because to many Christians don't, and some people like to study ALL of the Bible, even the 4/5ths that contain prophecy.

                                                         Paul2 8)

Oklahoma Howdy to Saved_4ever and Paul2,

I see two believers who will spend eternity together in heaven. Jesus is in your hearts, so God will take you both, faults and all. If God will accept you, you should accept each other.

If you do, I'll cook up a big mess of fresh Oklahoma road-kill smothered in possum gravy and teach you how to yodel, Oklahoma style.   ;D

In Christ,
Tom

     I agree with you Tom, I don't care if a brother in Christ has a tattoo, Jesus paid for all our mistakes, and will forgive believers with tattoos just as He forgives all the sins of believers, I believe He'll forgive my long hair because he knows my heart and that I believe He had long hair and covered my sins with His blood. I was just trying to point out that from our own perspectives we all seem justified but to others we might not be as perfect as we think.

    I'm so not perfect I'd say I was "chief of sinners" because I know the good I ought to do but don't do it like I should, but the Apostle Paul took that title for Himself, and who am I to argue with Paul.

    I look forward to meeting everybody in Heaven. Everybody that can't stand me now will just love me when Jesus fixes me so be patient, I'm still a work in progress.

    I'll pass on the possum gravy, but I'll bring my accoustic guitar and harmonica to the shin dig. (hopefully Jesus will give me more musical talent than I have now cause I sure can clear a room quick with what I have now).

    I didn't know they yodeled in Oklahoma, I thought they said YEEE HAAA!!   LOL

                                                          Paul2

Brother Paul2,

It is a "YEEE HAAA!!", but that's before the possum gravy.   ;D

Oklahoma is the number one attraction in the world for the Swiss. They come here to learn how to yodel.  They learn real quick. I think it has something to do with wanting to get away from the possum gravy.  ;D

In Christ,
Tom

Yodeling?  Possum gravy?  First of all, let me just say that THAT SOUNDS GRREEEEAAATTTEEE!!!!  The yodeling, mind you.  Not so sure bout the gravy... ;D

Nah.  That was just the 80's!  ;D  But then again, there were parachute pants... ???

And nah, wasn't that full.  A little bit shorter, and better kept.  I had grown it quite nicely, and then cut it to participate in a basketball game at an illumni game at my christian school I'd attended for H.S.  After that it just didn't grow back quite right...kinda looked like this one...

(http://www.mulletsgalore.com/other/descent/images/03.01.03_175_X_225.jpg)  :-[

Pardon me while I grab my yack bucket.   :D

I never had one never will, and wish I could run around with scissors to anyone that has one.  hehehehe


The only thing worse than a mullet is a rat tail.   :-X   :P

hehee...Does kinda make ya wanna snip em off doesn't it?!  That and the guys with 2 foot tall green spikes...