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"For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice." [ Romans 7.19].

After 6 years of being a Christian, I found myself laying face down on the floor and crying to God, "I can't do it Father. I just keep failing you. I am so sorry Father, but I just keep not doing what you are showing me to do."
And with a loving voice, He said to me, "good, now will you let Me."

Then my loving Father began to show me how I would never be able, out of my own power, to obey Him nor please Him.
"Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit, says the Lord of hosts." [ Zech. 4.6].    "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing." [John 15.5].

There are many more scriptures to show that we must depend uopn the Holy Spirit of God in ALL we do, or we will just end up failing. This truth God revealed to me set me free from struggling so hard to 'do it myself.'     Now I don't say that I don't at times find myself trying to do it out of my own power, for I do. But I am no longer burdened down thinking I HAD to do it for God. And when I do slip and try doing it out of my own power, He but needs to give me a gentle reminder of a truth I already know.

So why do I write this here? Because I believe there are probably some who have yet to learn this truth, and are doing as I was doing, and feeling guilt because they are failing God.

Some years after showing me this truth, He brought a man to me who desperately needed to know this truth. I was the manager of the Mission in Seattle, and this man had been in a couple times, and we had talked a bit. This time when he came in, he asked if we could go somewhere private. So we went to my room to talk. This man was tall, good looking, and had lots of "I can do it myself" kind of pride. He was what women would call "a hunk". He even walked with the pride of one who knows he has what it takes.
Well, he walked that way into my room, and started telling me how he was failing God. Within minutes his whole countenance changed to a beaten man, and he was bawling like a baby as he told me he just couldn't take it anymore. He said, "I hate it. I try so hard to live for God, but I just can't do it."
I said to him, "then quit trying." His sobbing stopped for a moment as he looked at me and said, "what?" Then I went on to explain to him that he could not do it out of his own power, and that anything God was commanding him to do, God would give him the power to do. Then I showed him many scriptures to show to him what I meant. His sobbing stopped, his face became relaxed, and he was soaking up what I was showing him from God's Word. The man who had come into my room with a huge monkey on his back, left with a newfound joy in his heart. And that too showed in the way he walked.

I was the opposite of this man. I was the 4th child, the only boy, and fell and hit my head when I was eleven, which left a scar on my brain that caused me to have epilepsy. Add to that my problems with my Dad, and I was spoiled rotten all my life by my Mom. And, because I had very little discipline growing up, I had very little self-discipline once I was grown up.  I was very weak.

This time that I cried out to God that I couldn't do what He was showing me to do, I also told Him how I hated being so weak. But He told me that this was good. Then I said to God what that man had said to me; "what?" It didn't make sense that being weak was a good thing. But of course, He used His Word to show me how it was a good thing. "....For when I am weak, then I am strong." [2 Cor. 12.10]. "And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." [2 Cor. 12.9]. And, "...and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the the things which are mighty." [1 Cor. 1.27].

I was near 30 when God revealed these truths to me. I had been for years carring a burden of feeling like I wasn't quite a man because of being so weak. You can imagine the joy I felt at finding out I was just the kind of guy God was looking for. Weak.

I pray that the sharing of these truths, and of my personal time of finding them out, will bless someone else who is carring the same burden I was.

Your brother in Christ our Lord.  Roy.

I too think it's important to admit our weaknesses so that God can work in us. Right now I am struggling with knowing what God wants me to do with my life. All we can do is what we are led to do each day. I've given it all to Him but i find myself impatient because i'm not always able to discern what He is telling me. It's also possible that what He wants me to do each day is the opposite of what i want to do. I feel like I'm ready to do whatever He tells me. I'm just not always sure what that is.

Amen!  I've come to the same conclusion via a different path...

I have often wondered why it is that we come to revivals, missions conferences, camps, retreats and the like, make wonderful decisions for Christ that a week later, we have neglected to keep.  I used to chalk it up to "being human."  But God began to work in my life with a few basic understandings.

For one, what is the biblical purpose of change?  


Ultimately, change is for conforming us into the image of His Son, Jesus Christ.  It began to dawn on me that many of the decisions made, were based upon change: my committment to Jesus as a witness, or to missions, or to my personal bible study, or to giving, or to any other number of changes that were presented.  Were these wrong?  God forbid!  Rather, it was my view of my role in that change that was wrong.  God had never called me to change my life.  Change a behavior?  Yes.  Change my heart?  No!  How can I when my "heart is deceitful above all things and desparately wicked; who can know it?"  Even more, if change is to conform my life to Christlikeness - what makes me think I could ever mold myself into that glorious image?

Simply put, I can no more do that than I could paint a portrait of my Lord and claim it an authentic likeness.  The work must be God's, not mine:


It is not my work!  It's His!  What then is my responsibilty?  The same responsibility that God has given man since day one: obedience.  He gives me a "change" to make, and He demands my obedience.  Yet, like Roy said, I can't obey! Isn't it interesting then that...


The will of obedience and the power to perform the obedient act come from God.  Through what?  Faith, and an active obedience.  Remember...


We are to perform the act of obedience, yet it is God Who transforms my obedience into a willingness towards, and an action for His good pleasure.  I must obey.  

Why do the decisions we've made tend to go the way of the dodo bird in a short period of time?  Because I believe we accept the full responsibility for the change.  "I can do it" or "I must do it!"  I reject that!  I can't do it, and I mustn't do it!  Rather, I must obey my God.  I must see these behavioral changes that He does invoke as obedience factors in my life.  I truly believe that obedience is the door by which, God, through the power of His Spirit, and the incorporation of His word, conforms us into the image of His Son.  It is God's work, God's power and it is for God's pleasure.  Hence, it's God's responsibility.  Amen?

Good post Royo!

Actually, I think obedience without a heart change can be destructive. That's what the Pharisees tried. But just admitting sin transforms it. When i admit my selfishness, then God can take it away, little by little. I find myself less angry, less selfish, much more forgiving than I used to be simply because I've admitted it. Then my actions come from my transformed temperament. But it's slower that I want so my impatience is still there.  But if I just obey God when my heart is still stuck in selfishness, then i end up resenting obeying Him and go back to my old ways. I definitely believe that our hearts have to be transformed before any real change can take place. Then our actions come from our hearts. One can't "decide" to forgive any more than he can "decide" to be loving. Real forgiveness and love come from the heart.

Yes, but it is important to realize that obedience is what brings the heart change.  Obedience in and of itself is often insignificant.  Take this for example: as a parent, when I tell my daughter to come here, and she fuses, fights, falls to the ground and crawls to me - but actually comes to me - is that obedience?  In the act, but not in the heart.  It is God Who works the heart-felt obedience.  It is we who obey His commands.  

When Jesus was addressing the Pharisees, He accused them of doing the right acts but inside, their hearts were evil. He then said, "Clean the inside of the cup first, and the outside will become clean as well." That is the only way to do it. If we clean the outside of the cup first, it becomes increasingly difficult to see the true state of our insides because we have presented the outside as holy and clean. We then have a longer way to fall. Jesus heals our hearts so that we NATURALLY fall into obedience. It all comes from admitting the truth about ourselves which is IN our hearts. Then as our sins fall away, more and more of  what's left is love and our responses will come from that. Then our insides and outsides will agree and we become genuine.

Interestingly enough, the Pharisees to whom Jesus was speaking were lost.  They sought to earn their own righteousness through those acts of "obedience."  When Jesus tells them to "clean the inside" He isn't telling them that they must obey from a right heart, but rather that He must do the cleaning.  They needed salvation and a proper perspective of the obedience demanded.  It is God Who works in us to will and to do.  Yet it is God Who demands of us our obedience.  Our hearts are temporally deceitful, wicked and unknowable.  How can we say we obey from the heart?  I agree that if I obey grudgingly, then I can pretty much know that I offer an unacceptable obedience to my God.  Yet to assume that my heart is right, assumes that there are no oppositions in me to any matter that I am to obey.  Few can say truthfully that they want to do everything that God wants them to do.  Paul couldn't!  If the desire isn't inherent, then it is God wrought.

"Delight yourself in the Lord, and He will give you the desires of your heart."

Jesus's blood does clean our hearts, PROVIDED we admit our sins. Jesus can't frogive what we don't confess. All Jesus wants from us is the truth. When we admit our ongoing sins and ask forgiveness, we receive God's love, forgiveness, and mercy. THEN, obedience naturally follows. It isn't a decision. Our cups are now overflowing more with God's love and forgiveness than with our previous evil desires. We respond from that love and mercy because we now want more of it. We can only come from what rules us. So I believe obedience FOLLOWS our heart change and our heart change FOLLOWS admitting our sins. It's a phenomenal process that begins with admitting the truth about ourselves. But if we obey FIRST, then there is danger that we will not confront our sinful heart. Our obedience then becomes an act of will rather than a response from a new heart. Sinful desires come from the heart. Once the heart is changed, then God transforms our sinful desires to the fruits of the Spirit.

I think this is the best thread I've seen at CU so far.

Heidi, the Bible says that "obedience is better than sacrifice."  It also says that if you are going to make an offering but have some problems with a brother, forget the offering...go make up.

My point is that there are so many "salvations" and "recommitments" at these revivals, camps, etc., and hardly any of them are true.  They just expect God to hit some magic red button to make you obedient.  God will help, but nowhere does the Bible say that God will make you obedient because you asked for forgiveness.

Also, kudos to Alinall and Royo for being the only ones to use Bible proof-text in their posts.

Mr. 5020:  Also, kudos to Alinall and Royo for being the only ones to use Bible proof-text in their posts.


    ::)



Thank you, Roy.  Wonderful testimony.  Weakness v. our own power.  Hehe.  Good reminder.  Thank you.   :)

Glad you enjoyed that.  ;D

It is a good discussion and without contention argueing, confusion ,strife, etc.
Each post and reply has added to and not taken away or diverted the subject.

Paul was also saying in so many words that as He grew in Christ and the grace God offers through Him that his increased sanctification through the Spirit made him even more aware of the sins that still remained in him and that God's law in his heart made him more aware of overcoming these sins.

I've wanted to have a discussion like this since I've been on this forum. As far as obedience goes, we CANNOT be obedient. Who have us has sold everything we had and given to the poor, or loved our brother all the time or not lied, sworn, lusted, or called attention to ourselves, or wanted recognition, money, and on and on. Since we cannot do that all the time, we are forgiven. But what God does, is give us His grace, love, mercy and forgiveness which increases our ability to do those things daily. To the degree that we have that ability is the degree that we can accomplish even ONE of those things. I woudl LOVE to be able to do all of these things all of the time. But because of my weak, sinful nature, I can only obey to the degree that i have the strength. That is what i mean by obedience comes from the heart. As God heals our hearts, our capacity for love and selflessness increases.

But it is a slow process contigent on the Grace from God. It's just as Paul said "Why do i do that that i do not want to do and that that I want to do, I cannot. For it is sin that lives in me." Then he goes on to say that it is by the grace of God that brings him more into obedience. Every time i try to "obey" God, it backfires. Whenever i say I'm going to do something in God's will, i almost always end up inadvertantly doing the opposite. God is trying to show me to let Him to the healing and my response will come from my healed heart than from my own will. It is not a choice. It is a response from the Holy Spirit. Christianity is a paradox. So paradoxically by admitting i cannot obey, I am giving GOD the opportunity to bring me into obedience.

The will of obedience and the power to perform the obedient act come from God.  Through what?  Faith, and an active obedience.
Quote from Allinall
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Since OBEDIENCE is so very important, and it is, I wish to share something the Holy Spirit revealed to me.

"So He said, "come." And when Peter had come down out of the boat, he walked on the water to go to Jesus.
But when he saw that the wind was boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink he cried out, "Lord, save me."
And immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and caught him, and said to him, "oh you of little faith, why did you doubt?" [Matt. 14.29-31].

What many had told me in reference to this scripture, is that we need to have faith, and keep our eyes on Jesus. Which is true. But the Holy Spirit showed a deeper meaning also.
Peter did what is not possible for man to do: HE WALKED ON WATER! How, and why?
The HOW is by the power of God, of course. The WHY is what is important to see here. WHY did God give to Peter the power to walk on water?
Jesus, who is God in the flesh, gave a commandent to Peter. He told Peter, "come." Then, the moment Peter was WILLING tO OBEY the commandment of God, he received from God the POWER TO OBEY the commandment of God.
As Allinall said, this was an ACTIVE faith. God gave him the power, but Peter had to be willing to obey, and then take that step of obedience, and then he did what man should not be able to do. And it is this way with all our walk in Christ. We cannot do it ourself; but the moment we are WILLING TO OBEY what God is commanding us to do, He will give us the power to do what He has commanded us to do.
Jesus told His apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel, heal the sick, etc. But then He told them, "Behold, I send the promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high." [Luke 24.49].  Then in Acts 1.8 He says, "But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."
Even Jesus did not begin his earthly ministry until the Holy Spirit had come upon Him.
This is also why He tells us in Matthew 6.33 to "seek FIRST the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you."
Without the POWER of God, by His Holy Spirit, we cannot do it. We will fail, even when we think we are not failing. For as Jesus said, "without Me, you can do nothing."

Bless you all my brothers and sisters in Christ.   Roy.

But if that's true, Royo, then i can become perfect. Paul's statement about sin living in him is then an excuse. Paul had the wisdom to see the limitations of his humanity which is the FIRST STEP toward receiving forgiveness. I am always WILLING to obey but i do not always have the power. The degree that we are even attached to life itself is the degree of fear we have about losing it. Jesus was right when He told us that we had little faith. He did that with Peter, specifically to illustrate how little faith we have. We can't PRETEND to have faith. It is a process that comes from acknowledging how little faith we have. The truth is the ONLY thing that sets us free because it is from the truth that we receive power from God.

Again, it's a paradox. We have to see our weaknesses before God can give us strength. We are all attached to some form of greed, sloth, pride, wrath, lust, and envy. We can't just get rid of them. All we can do is acknowledge them so God can take them away from us...only to the degree that we can bear it. I once read a phrase that i think sums it up beautifully. "God knows that we do most things in life for self-serving purposes. Jesus knows that we can only give Him a mustard seed of faith and He is satisfied. Once we have the humility to concede this, then God can fill in the gaps."

 

Allinall,

I find myself agreeing with you, I may have disgreed with you earlier on another post but I see, this is exactly what the truth of this matter is, the natural man, may not be able to receive the things of God, nor undertsnad them, but God who gives hearing to hear and eyes to perceive can begin a work in anyone, who when they hear can trust and obey, this is definitely a begining that never ends, because this work is of faith; from faith unto more faith, like learning to walk as a babe, walking begins with one step, and since the Spirit never quits but perseveres the end of which is to conform everyone God has elected in the image of His dear Son.

Amen I say, and I do thank Him for making a good choice in choosing them who do trust and obey..

Blessings,
Petro

But if that's true, Royo, then i can become perfect.
Quote from Heidi.
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Yes, Heidi, you can become perfect. Not only CAN you become perfect, the Word of God commands you to become perfect.
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." [ Matt. 5.48 ]. Also, "Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary priciples of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God." [Heb. 6.1].
I have had people tell me, "that's not what it means." Well, that's what it says. Just HOW perfect is God commanding us to be in Matt. 5.48? As perfect "as your Father which is in heaven."
Someone here said Adam and Eve never existed. Yet God, in His Word, says they did. Someone says that we can't be perfect, and yet God in His Word commands it. There is a lot in the Word of God that some people do not want to accept, for whatever reason. I believe, 'God said it, I believe it, that settles it.'

Now I realize some things, like the timing of the rapture, etc., can be interpreted differently by different people. But when it comes to a straitforward command of God, it is usually only interpreted differently because someone does not want to accept the truth God spoke.

Jesus said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also...." [John 14.12]. The greatest, and most important, "work" that Jesus did, was to live a sinless life. Without that great work, He could not have been our Savior.

Now, Heidi, if you will look again at what I have already posted in this thread, you will see that I say that this is not something we can do out of our own power. It MUST BE DONE by the Holy Spirit who lives in us.
If you say that it is not possible for the Holy Spirit to work in my life where I can reach the point where I live perfectly, (sinlessly), then you are saying God is not powerful enough to be able to do this.
Sin comes from the "old man", or self. Paul said the old man has to be crucified with Christ. And Paul himself reached this point. "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me..."[Gal. 2.20]. In this verse the "I" and "me" being refered to here is the soul-being Paul. The old man, or self.
God sees us as being in Christ because of His shed blood, but we do not instantly become perfect the day God comes to live in us.That is a "glory to glory" thing that happens over time as the Holy Spirit works in our life to make us over into the "image of His Son." But with many that never happens, for various reasons. And with some it happens more quickly than with others. It depends on our committment and willingness to obey. "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service." [Rom. 12.1]. Paul is pleading, (beseeching), Christians to do this. But very few really do, as the Word says. "The harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few." [Matt. 9.37]. That is why when we look at church history, certain ones stand out so much; because they were WILLING to give their all for God. They heeded the call of Romans 12.1.

God's blessing on us all as we seek Him.      Roy.  

Even Paul wasn't perfect, Royo. God left the thorn in his side, specifically to keep him humble. No one had more faith than Paul. If we're perfect, then we will be worshipped right along with Christ. Jesus was saying that to CONVICT us.

It is paramount that we use discernment when knowing if we are led by the spirit or our own egos. If certain beliefs and attitudes lead me more toward the fruits of the spirit, then I know I'm going in the right direction. The fruits of the spirit are peace, joy, patience, HUMILITY, love, etc. The things that are NOT fruits of the spirit are boastfulness, arrogance, jealousy, impatience, deception, etc. The notion that we can be perfect is not in any way humble. What makes us perfect is THE BLOOD OF CHRIST, period. Only when you see the degree of your own sin, Royo, will you see the impossibility of becoming perfect. Any time we call attention to our goodness, any thing we buy for ourselves that isn't a need, any overeating, any self-deception (which includes thinking we are perfect), any covetous desire, any jealousy of someone more spiritually mature, any selfish anger when we have been offended, any anger at God, any fear, and on and on and on. We are all riddled with sin, most of it unacknowledged. Paul's beautiful and wise statement gives his purification to the grace of God. The rest of the things that come out of him come from his sinful nature which he acknowledged, he will ALWAYS have. He who humbles himself will be exhalted and he who exhalts himself will be humbled.

Heidi, you are twisting things. What are you talking about when you say "only when I see the degree of my own sin"?

I never said I was perfect; I was stating what the Word of God says about it. If you have a problem with the Word of God, then take it up with the Author, instead of trying to start a debate with me. I don't want to debate, and will not.

His blessings upon you.  Roy.

Royo is right Heidi!  We can be perfected.  We all know that while on earth, we are progressively sanctified, but are also considered to be sanctified by God.  Why? Because, again, the work is His.  If He said he would do it then it is as good as done.  Paul's statement is not an excuse, but a reality.  Paul's dilemma is the same as ours.  There is the perfecting work of God and the destructive waste of self.  Is it any wonder that Paul cries out to God then:


Paul's understanding of the weaknesses of his flesh as opposed to the desire of his mind weren't even a step to forgiveness.  He was forgiven when he asked from a repentant heart.  His understanding lies deeper.  He couldn't obey.  He wanted to, but couldn't because of the warring of his members.  I find it interesting how the Psalmist in Psalm 119:25 relates something very similar:


The wording in the Hebrew here is very interesting.  He says literally, that his soul has the "full-nelson" on the dead man.  That dust is the word used to describe a decomposing flesh.  He said he clings with great vigor to a dead flesh - then asks for God to give Him life.  It is interesting also, that he makes great strides in determining, and committing to obeying God's word in his life in the verses prior.  The very first struggle he faces is with himself.  His flesh.  

The heart with which we desire to obey, is the same heart that is considered to be deceitful, wicked, and unknowable.  I think it helps here to understand what is meant by "heart" in the bible.  To the Jew, the heart wasn't the emotional seat, but the intellectual.  It was the totallity of the inner being, and the center of reason.  That understanding carries over into the Greek understanding of the word as well.  For all practical intents and purposes, it is the mind.  Paul said that he served God with his mind, and sin with his flesh.  Was he lying or confused?  Hardly!  Rather, he'd learned the importance of "taking captive every thought to the obedience of Christ" and keeping his "heart with all diligence, for out of it are the issues of life."  The desire to obey came from the reforming work of God's word in his mind, as it does with us.  It is the mind of God, not my mind.  That is, I reflect God's mind, not my own.  My mind is imperfect.  God's is perfect, and is in the process of perfecting my own mind.  Will I ever reach perfection?  Yes!  When I am brought home, removed from the very presence of sin, and glorified, conformed to the image of that blessed Son.  And only then.   :)


Only if we take responsibilty or credit for that working of God!  And the blood of Christ justifies me.  It is the work of the Spirit through the word that does the perfecting work:


and...


It is also important to understand what is meant by being "perfect."  It is being competent, or complete, wanting nothing.   It is to be mature in Christ.  This isn't a prideful claim of being great, but being conformed into a proper reflection of our Lord and Savior to the witness of those who do not know Him:


It is all to His glory - not ours.  Our glory comes in heaven, and is laid at the feet of the One worthy of that glory.   :)


It is in seeing the degree of our sin, that we realize our ineptitude.  It is in seeing this sin that we revel in the work of our God to transform our minds and our lives to reflect Him:



Amen!  But remember, this perfecting is a maturing that God brings about in our lives.  It is attainable, and will be completed in glory.  It isn't a badge of honor that we can take pride in and say "I'm perfect!"  To the contrary!  The individual who is being perfected will see only his sin and weakness, and his need for God.

Amen!  I agree with your concept of our growing faith.  That is evident in the life of Abraham.  He was a man of incredible faith, yet that faith was a journey.  He began with just enough to leave when called out of Ur of the Chaldees, grew to a saving faith, and then to a living faith.  I think sometimes we think of our faith as insufficient when we should see it as immature.  This fits with scripture.  Take for example the times that Christ said "Oh ye of little faith."  He was denoting the amount of faith at those times, but rather the maturity of that faith.  It was little, not grown.  What's more, you can see that faith mature in the writings of those to whom He said it!  

Thank you for that post brother!

Of course i agree with God's word, Royo. But there are many different interpretations of God's Word. I don't even see the degree of my own sin! Every time i confess my known sins, there is always another layer underneath. There may be days when i feel complete in God's love, but there will always be days when i won't. When will any of us know we are mature? All I can know is that i'm hopefully more mature today that I was yesterday.

You took issue with me, Royo, when you said that we CAN become perfect. I didn't accuse you of debating. Why are you accusing me of debating? I think this is an extremely important topic that warrants exploring. If you don't want anyone to disagree with you then that makes communication difficult. If others just say what you want them to, then what's the point of listening to them? The reason I said that you don't see the degree of your own sin, is that if you did, how can you even say that we can come NEAR to being perfect? We all grow in Christ, that's a given. But i take issue with the fact that we can become perfect.  

Heidi, Royo presented you with a Biblical proof text (Matthew 5:48, respectively).  Then Alinall presented you with more (Ephesians 4:11-15 and 2 Timothy 3:16-17, respectively).

Here's the way any American conversation (and debate) works.  You answer their point, then you make your own.  Without responding to their proof texts, and just making your own opinion, you are forfeiting the debate of this thread.

But i did answer their proof texts. I just don't agree with their interpretation of the texts. Even with God's power we can never become perfect.  The Holy Spirit is always working in us to transform us to the likeness of Christ, but we will NEVER reach perfection. Royo, not only said that we CAN become perfect but that it was a command of Jesus. I don't agree that that's what Jesus meant. I never said that our faith doesn't grow. I've always maintained that it is a slow process. I think we all agree on that. Where i disagree is that we can become perfect.  Royo seemd to get furious that i disagreed with him. It again just shows me how far away from perfection we all are.

Royo seemd to get furious that i disagreed with him.
Quote from Heidi.
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Furious? I only get mad maybe twice a year. But furious?
Never. And I never mind that people disagree with me. That is the nature of things.
But when someone twists something I say, I will try to correct them. Once. Then you are free to twist all you want.
And assume and judge the intent of my heart, as you have done with the above statement.
Goodbye Heidi, and please do not respond.

The "goodbye" does indeed show me that you are furious. I'm sorry you don't give people another chance. Jesus said to forgive not once, but 70 times. I do not feel at all forgiven by you. The fact that you're trying to control my response shows me an incredible lack of forgiveness. I'm sorry for you, Royo, but i do forgive you.

The "goodbye" does indeed show me that you are furious. I'm sorry you don't give people another chance. Jesus said to forgive not once, but 70 times. I do not feel at all forgiven by you. The fact that you're trying to control my response shows me an incredible lack of forgiveness. I'm sorry for you, Royo, but i do forgive you.
Quote from Heidi.
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Heidi, there is nothing to forgive. I was never mad at you. Nor was I "furious" at you. I just did not want to debate with you about anything. Many times I enjoy fellowship with you, and agree with what you say. And some times I don't agree with you. (as is the case with most people I know). Nobody agrees on all things. So, as Christians, we agree to disagree.
I have nothing to forgive you for because you have in no way done me wrong. You just didn't agree. Yes, I think you may have twisted what I said, and judged my heart and thinking, but you did not offend me.
You are my sister in the Lord, and I love you for that reason, at least. But I also like you in a lot of ways. So let us just agree to disagree, and put this behind us. And let us love one another, as Jesus commanded us to do.

Your brother in Christ.    Roy.

Sounds good to me.

Important note here Heidi: if you answer a proof text without proof it is merely opinion.  Now, at the risk of sounding like atheist...let me 'splain.  There are many ways people "interpret" scripture, but there is only one interpretation.  But what we are dealing with here isn't an interpretation.  It is a translation.  The word used in the passage Royo gave is the Greek word teleios.  It means complete, wanting nothing, adult, and mature.  Other proof passages of this word in this usage are:


Paul states that he had not attained the perfection of the resurrection - the glorification I mentioned prior, but that he, and other mature believers (note this is the word "perfect" in the KJV) are to think this way.  Humbly.  And then...


And...


And again...


It is important to understand Heidi that this is not an interpretation.  It is a teaching.  I do not give this in contention, but to teach.  If we do not heed scripture, we are relegated to our own opinions.  This is no opinion my sister.  This is truth.   :)

I pray that this thread doesn't become a disappointment to our brethren who had such a blessing out of it thus far.   :)

Allinall,

The just shall live by faith, and the righteousness of God is revealed from Faith to Faith. (Rom 1:17)

The sin that so easily besets us, is lack of faith...  I believe.

I say this because the scripture says, that whatsoever is not of Faith is sin. (Rom 14:23)

And lack of Faith usually is associated with unbelief.

Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Should be our prayer...

Blessings,

Petro

You bring up an excellent point here brother!  At the heart of every sin lies a disbelief.  We fail to believe God when we believe a lie and sin.  My pastor says, as I have posted before, that "belief reflects obedience and obedience reveals belief."

Thanks for the post!