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HI,
    I'm swamped with home work these days, my Mom has been in the hosp, we had a hearing for my foster son, (judge ruled against a new trial  :'() and I'm huffin and a puffin tryin to meet myself before I come when I should be going or going when I should be coming...... so forgive me I've not had a chance to read thru many of the posts or add to the thread of One Nation Under God. Email if you need to if you need more on that subject.
     I posted part of this on another thread that seemed to die out, and I wanted to hear some input on this. Some want to say that the rapture is a new teaching that began in the  1800's. WRONG, This is bogus, a fabrication to make the "rapture" look untrue, and unbelievable, the rapture is NOT a teaching of some sect or cult. The rapture has been debated for centeries, and the debate exists from the scriptures themselves.  The word rapture maybe a new way to say it,  used more in this day and age, but it means the same as what the scriptures is saying about the coming of the Lord. Read the following and make your own decesion. I would also like to know the name of the author who wrote this book about Irving and the vision stuff.  

the early church fathers on the "rapture" as Talk about in 1 Thes 4:17, and 1 Cor. 15:51-55.
The following are cuts and pastes from  the teaching of Justin Marytr.  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/justin.html

Justin Martyr was a second century Christian apologist. His apology is dedicated to Emperor Antoninus, who ruled from 138-161. His apology may be dated internally from the statement in chapter 6 that "Christ was born one hundred and fifty years ago under Cyrenius." Since Quirinius entered office in the year 6 C.E. according to Josephus, the apology may be dated to the year 156 CE.
A dialogue this early church father had with Trypho.
      CHAPTER LII -- JACOB PREDICTED TWO ADVENTS OF CHRIST.

"And it was prophesied by Jacob the patriarch that there would be two advents of Christ, and that in the first He would suffer, and that after He came there would be neither prophet nor king in your nation(I proceeded), and that the nations who believed in the suffering Christ would look for His future appearance......

Found at
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html  (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html)

And this I found to be very very interesting.

CHAPTER LXXX -- THE OPINION OF JUSTIN WITH REGARD TO THE REIGN OF A THOUSAND YEARS. SEVERAL CATHOLICS REJECT IT. ........ From Trypho to Justin M.
.....And Trypho to this replied, "I remarked to you sir, that you are very anxious to be safe in all respects, since you cling to the Scriptures. But tell me, do you really admit that this place, Jerusalem, shall be rebuilt; and do you expect your people to be gathered together, .............

Justing response, please go to this sight and read in its completeness.

........ But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be
built, adorned, and enlarged, the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.....

CHAPTER CX -- A PORTION OF THE PROPHECY ALREADY FULFILLED IN THE CHRISTIANS: THE REST SHALL BE FULFILLED AT THE SECOND ADVENT.

And when I had finished these words, I continued: "Now I am aware that your teachers, sirs, admit the whole of the words of this passage to refer to Christ; and I am likewise aware that they maintain He has not yet come; or if they say that He has come, they assert that it is not known who He is; but when He shall become manifest and glorious, then it shall be known who He is. And then, they say, the events mentioned in this passage shall happen, just as if there was no fruit as yet from the words of the prophecy. O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High,......

Blessings

Dear Musiclover,

The "secret pre-tribulation rapture" is what is in dispute. This doctrine is directly traced backed to Margaret McDonald and the Irvingites (named after Edward Irving) in the 1830's. Her false visions were documented by a Robert Norton M.D.

I truly believe that Jesus will come back for His Church. That the dead in Christ will rise. But He is coming once more....not twice! The early believers believed that the I Thess 4:17 verse pertained to the ressurrection ;not a secret rapture. There is a difference in the two.

I hope this clarify's some things.

Psalm 119

ps please check this site out.

http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/timeline/index.html

I agree much with what Psalm 119 has said.
The rapture of the church has always been around, as per the teachings of Paul in 1 Thess. 4.16,17, and 2 Thess 2.1-8.
As Psalm 119 has said, it is the 'pre-trib rapture' that only came in to being in the 1800's.
As I understand it, the church is to be raptured, or "caught up", before the wrath of God is poured out upon the world. As Jesus said, "But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." [Matt. 24.37]. Before God poured His wrath upon the world in a flood, He made Noah and his family safe. So also will He take the church out of the world before He pours out His wrath upon the world in those last 7 years.

Most scholars call this last seven years the 'seventieth week of Daniel', because it is Daniel that speaks of these last seven years in Daniel 9.27. And he also speaks of the abomnation of desolation that will take place in "middle of the week", which is also spoken of by Jesus in Matt. 24.15, "therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place."  Take note of "standing in the holy place", for as we look at 2 Thess. 2.1-8, Paul speaks of "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering to Him," and goes on to say that this "will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." This is the "standing in the holy place" that Jesus was speaking of in Matt. 24.15.
So, the "gathering to Him," of 2 Thess. 2.1, or the "caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air," cannot take place until after this "abomination of desolation" spoken of by both Jesus and Daniel, which Daniel says takes place in "the middle of the week".

So for people to say that the rapture happens before the seven years begin goes against what the Word of God teaches.

If you look at Rev. chapter 7, you will see that the first half of it is God sealing 144,000 Jews against His wrath that is about to be poured out in the trumpets and bowls. And the second half of Rev. 7 shows the church in heaven after having been raptured. Then in chapter 8 of Rev. we see the beginning of God's wrath with the trumpet judgements.

There is so much more to see, but I pray this helps you to see the truth, or lie, about the 'pre-trib' rapture. I hear so many Christians saying things like, "well, at least we don't have to worry, cause we won't be here." They also think, that because of this, that they don't really need to get prepared. (spiritually). So many think that they can just keep living their worldly life, and that one day soon they will be raptured, and go to be with God, never having had to go through any tribulations at all. Won't they be surprised?

Love in Christ our Lord.  Roy.

Good evening,
           OK,    I understand what your saying. I guess I'm stuck in a rut, from a previous Christian sight there was a big debate on the rapture teaching as a whole.  I got the impression that some here, also believed this as a false teaching, not relevant to today, that it comes from cultic like beliefs startred by such people as this McDonnel women.
     As far as any "secret" pre trib rapture........ no I don't believe it is secret, as this Mcdonnel women's false vision fortold. Skippping that bit of taboild heresey, I do believe in a pre trib rapture. NOT secret to the "church", gee we are talking pretty loudly for it to be a secret.....lol. But those who are left behind might be thinking some kind secret, monsters from outer space or spontanious combustion of lots of Jesus fanatics. And yes there will be some who will know the truth.....
      So that was why I posted from the teaching of J Martyr. To show that this isn't some  bogus, new age, or newer than the scriptures teaching.  Even tho its wrote in the scriptures, its hard for me to understand,there are some who don't believe in a rapture at all.  
        I completely understand the pre trib, and mid trib, and pre trib teachings. And the support of the scripture for each view. There are still more valid reasons for me to believe in a pre trib rapture. I don't believe that people who believe in a mid trib, or post rapture are doomed to hell. I clarify that because some thing that is what the big debate is all about. Not for me, its that fact that a pre trib rapture will remove the body of Christ, and those who don't believe in Jesus coming son of God, ect ect ect.....will live thru tribulations.
       I do wonder, will you be removed WHEN ever it happens if you believe in "A" rapture? Will believing in a mid trib rapture cause you to miss the "pre trib rap"

What do some of you think?

        I find it hard to keep the all the terms seperate, so I stick pretty hard to the way I understand it, with the support of the scripture, but yet I want to remain teachable. But honestly it does get confusion sometimes.
Terms like
      Last days.......,WHEN, are they now, or yet to come? I believe the scriptures say they are now, beginning at the birth of Jesus until Jesus returns to earth.  One of the many  question with in the rapture teaching.
     They taught last days in the times of Jesus, soooo HOW much closer are we to that day? But anyway.

    Rapture....... Chirst is gong to come in the air and take every member of the church , both living and dead to Heaven, giving each a resurrected body.
     
       7 years of tribulation, are first 3 1/2 as good years, the anti christ sets himself up as a world ruler, good guy so to speak.  The last 3 1/2 years he reveals his true colors, breaks treaty with Isreal, abomination of descicration, and the one world system come into being, all one money, all one relegion, and all take mark of the beast or you die ect ect
     
       Pre trib rapture would be the removing of the Church  at the beginning of the 7 years of tribulation.

        Mid trib rapture......... the removal of the church at the middle of the tribulations, 3 1/2 years are left for those left on earth.

         post trib rapture........ the removal of the church (people of God) at the end of the 7 years of trib.

        Second coming of Christ, also called the second advent...... Christ and his angesl comes to defeat the anti christ and his followers at the battle of Armageddon. Kicks some devil booty. the second debate with in the rapture teachings.
       
        Millennium.........1000 years following the end of the Tribulations.
AND yet a third debate with in the raputre debate.

 To clarify my belief...... I believe in a pre trib raputre, 7 yys tribulation, and Christ returns bounds Satan for a 1000 yrs. As then end of that 1000 yrs (milleniumal reign), the devil is defeated and then thrown into hell for eternity. Pre trib rapture is NOT the second coming of Christ. My understanding is that since Christ at the pre trib rapture doesn't set foot on earth, he meets his church in the air. So maybe that will help with some of the confusion.
       
       Does that sound like laymans terms for the sake of all those who read? Is there any more terms that need to be clarified?  Its mind twister for any beginner to deal with. Even after several years of reading and learning I can still get mixed up. Learning to seperate the scripture from the rapture, and his second coming is confusing as well.
      Rev 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it, for the time is near.
       So this is a promise to those who read and seek to understand. When its very hard to understand, God blesses our effort I believe. I love to talk end times, its like iron sharpening iron. We each dig into how we understand, being fair minded, not hard nosed. HOW many rapture threads have been started, and how many arguements arise from each? What about a understanding of how the scriptures can be read, and how the pre trib, and mid trib believers can be in unision together?  
     

Hello Musicllover.

I agree with most of what you said, except of course the 'timing' of the rapture. But that is neither here nor there.
As to something you said: I have no doubt that whenever it takes place, (pre, mid, post, etc.), every born again Christian will go. The Father God does not call the name of each Christian who is to be raptured; He simply calls the Holy Spirit out of the world, and anyone He lives in goes with Him. Our salvation is not based on works; and whether we go in the rapture is not dependent upon whether we believe in one, or the correct one. It is only based on whether the Holy Spirit of God lives in us.

Bless your seeking soul, and thank you for the fellowship.

Yours in Christ.   Roy.

Royo,
      SO I again have to wonder what all the fuss is about. IS there any scripture that says believing in a mid trib compared to a pre trib rapture will keep anyone from hearing the trumpet calls. Not that I am aware of.......so I have to ask, Does it have to divide the church?
   What about NOT believing in ANY rapture? What are your feelings on that?
     I am curious as to any scriptures that explain this.
    Of coarse denying Christ will cause you lots of misery no matter if there is a rapture.
      I still believe that the "pre" trib rapture is an old teaching. And it depends on how you interpit the word. As I said before there are scripture to support both the pre and mid trib raptures.  I defiantly don't believe in the "secret" rapture. So does this McDonnel women say secret rapture or pre rapture??? I seem to be reading two diff understanding between Psalm and Royo. Wouldn't there would be a diff between "secret", and "pre" ?
     I want to get a little further understanding before I post the scriptures for a pre trib rapture? And still I wonder does it make any difference,as long as you believe in a rapture?

A lot of US christians believe that the rapture occurs pre-trib
A lot of EU christians believe that the rapture occurs almost post-trib

As I look at the current state of affairs I say that both of them are right :P

You might say: " Why ? How is that Two Bombs ?"

The key for understanding both "camps" is their geographical location. Let me illustrate :

Let's say I live in a valley near the coast, and a good friend of mine lives on the side of a high hill adjacent to the valley, yet not visible for me, sea-side so to say. (example seen in: scotland)

Both me and my friend read the news and weather on the same channel, and the weather forecasts incoming clouds with rain.
Both me and my good friend get ready for the rain.

The next day the fields and house of my friend are soaked with water; yet I needed no raincoat whatsoever and my fields are dry.

What happened: The hillside stopped the clouds, and dumped all the water on the house and field of my friend.

Morale of this short story: Don't live to close to the coast :)

2nd morale of this short story: the hillside is the US; the valley the EU. When a terrorist threat comes in for the both of us (US & EU) the relative unprotected shores of the US coast will be a target for ships with bad cargo; yet the EU with all it's Islamic ppl and moderate mild politics for the Palestinian cause will be able to dodge the fire; the EU isn't very busy with the roaring of the sea, but is just building and making the economy stronger.

The US people especially on the coastal cities will die just before the tribulation start, in an event that the politics called upon themselves. So an US citisen can devotely pray and believe that he wi'll be in heaven the day that the trib starts; yet the average EU citisen never needs to believe that, not should he need to.

Even more; not all will die in that attack, maybe even those that believe that they will see the day of days when the Lord comes back to pick us up whilst still on our feet....

You see; these are the days that all prophecies that are spoken will come to pass; and when our Lord says that the Trib will include massive loss of live, insomuch that when time itself would not be speeded none would live to see the day.

Well, say it ain't so; those weapons aren't conventional. Just as the 9/11 attack wasn't conventional, so will the next attack be; unconventional ; i.e.: nuclear and chemical.

Many, many visions and prophecies from the start of the US republic (the first president), all the way through the fifties (the vision with the statue of liberty), the eighties (henry gruber)and until now (many more ie: David Wilkerson)

Two Tombs,
              ???.......lol. I'm not sure if I read this correctly? People dieing just before the rapture? I'm shaking my head, in wonderment. Is this science fiction or how you really understand it to be.
     I do believe that Islam is going to play a BIG part in the setting up of a world system, possibly even the anti Christ. So I guess I can agree of a few of your ideas. I've no doubt that if Islam had there way that we Christians would have been blown up had someone like Hussein had the bomb. WHich I believe he was trying to build.

 OK, before we get off into outter space, My next question to any who want to answer.
   Is it possilbe that there is a pre trib raptrue and a mid trib rapture? NOt Christ setting foot on earht,  but the meeting in the air? How does this fit into scripture, are there any scripture that might support this? I really want people to think here, IF IF it makes no difference WHEN the ratpure happens, but that we believe that Jesus will return in the air,is the son of God, died, rose....... then wouldn't it be better for people to simple say yes I believe in the rapture, rather than pre, or mid. Not to argue over dates and times, cause honestly we aren't going to know those anyway. The real deal is to have Jesus in our hearts. And think about this, you believe in the rapture.......(any of them), One hour before this rapture takes place that the world has no idea is about to happen and you don't see the bus and cross the street in front of that bus, your probably dead, the next second. NOT believing in a Jesus let alone a rapture could prove a eternal mistake when hit by that bus. We just don't know when our time is up. BUT if we are here when the raputre happens......then those who believe are those that will meet Jesus in the air.
       Does this make any sense to anyone?

I tried to illustrate my current views. These days and the coming years are complex times. As far as I know a lot stuff will happen at different places at the same time.

Only recently I found out that that a lot of people see that at the start of the Tribulation period the Gog-magog war would start. New information suggests an all-out attack on the coastal cities of the USA, whilst attacking Israel also.

 1 Thessalonians4:15.  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
 16.  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
 17.  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
 18.  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
 1 Thessalonians5:1.  But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
 2.  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
 3.  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
 4.  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
 5.  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
 6.  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.[/b]
 7.  For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
 8.  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
 9.  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
 10.  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
 11.  Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

"Pre trib., mid trib., post trib" is not important just that God's people watch, be sober, and be ready at any and all times.

Ollie,
      I most defiantly agree. Its been such a long hot debated subject that I fear the real meaning, and reason for the rapture is lost in the differing opinions. I find it very  refreshing to know that we can agree that most do believe in a rapture, as written in the scriptures. That is IS NOT something that needs to divide the brethren.
      Do you have an opinion of 2 raptures, pre, and mid?

Oh, I agree that we need to be ready; but my work on the rapture is done with the knowledge that 'a good and obediant servant knows when his Master cometh'

And the verse you cited in tessalonians is proof that there is such a thing as a day and an hour.

'The thief in the night', 'no one knows the days and the hour' and 'ye know perfectly when the day of the Lord cometh'  ALL, I REPEAT, *ALL* refer to one jewish holliday called the feast of trumpets, ROSH HASHANAH, wich is the end of the Jewish year.

God's timing is perfect, it's just us that falter and fail to see the simplicity and the might of the plan of God with this earth.

Having said that I know that it is much better to espect Him; be ready and do His works. Then to know the year, day, hour, minute and second and not be active in the works of faith.

No opinions.

The bible tells of only one more coming of Jesus and that we only have the knowledge that the day of the Lord will come upon us as a thief in the night, and we should watch and be ready for this occurance as it will come unexpected and we should not be unaware that it will come.

 Mark 13:34.  For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
 35.  Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
 36.  Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
 37.  And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

     To solve the "mystery" of the Rapture requires extensive study of "all" prophetic scriptures. Many people don't take the time to compare all prophetic scriptures against each other to get the complete picture. Pre-Tribulation Rapture requires the most study because when all Scriptures are pieced together that is the "picture" that emerges. If you miss a few details you will end up being a mid. Tribulation Rapture believer, miss more details and you'll end up a post tribulation believer.

    Heres an example. The two witnesses of Revelation 11 are a clue to the timing of the Rapture of the church. Why? I'll explain... In Revelation 1:20 we are told the "mystery" of the seven candlesticks, that they represent the church.

Revelation 1:20 "The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

     Now lets look at the "key" verse in the book of Revelation, miss this verse and its meaning and you will miss the mystery, and come to a false conclusion. The most important verse to understanding the book of Revelation is 1:19, read the verse below and then I'll explain why it is so important.

Revelation 1:19  "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;"

    John is given a format to follow and we are given a format to follow to understand the book. John is told to "write the things thou hast seen", what had John seen you might ask? John saw the vision of Jesus Christ (Rev.1:10-18). This is "PAST TENSE", he was told to write what he had already seen. Next he is told to write "the things which are" which is "PRESENT TENSE". The "things which are" encompass the seven letters to the Seven Churches. The "things which are" refer to the church age, in the "present tense." The seven letters are three fold in meaning.

   First, they are seven real letters to seven real churches in Asia at the time of John's writing and applied directly to the church each was addressed to.

   Second, they are seven letters to the universal Church, in other words they apply to every believer throughout the entire church age.

   Third, they are seven prophetic letters to seven distinct church ages or periods the church would go through.

   These seven letters encompass the age of the church on earth and we are still in the "PRESENT TENSE" period of time that is "the things which are". There are 2 church periods active now in the time we live in and they are Philidelphia, the true church on earth now, and Laodicea, the false church on earth now. They continue on simaltaneously until the Rapture seperates them and concludes the Church age. Philidelphia has the open door of heaven and is Raptured, Laodicea is vomited out of the body of christ because it could not be "digested" by the body of Christ because of false doctrine.

   When the Church age ends with the Rapture it will also end the period known as the "things which are", Present Tense" and be followed by "the things which shall be hereafter;" FUTURE TENSE.

   Revelation Chapter 4 begins with John hearing the voice of Jesus, sounding like a trumpet calling him to heaven. It is also the timing of the Rapture of the Church ending the period of the church on earth and the age of Grace.

 Revelation 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.From chapter 4 on the church is no longer on earth, it is "Future tense".

Revelation 11 3: And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
   4: These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

    During the time period of the two witnesses preaching, they are the only candlesticks on earth, the seven candlesticks that represented the Church are now gone from earth into heaven and the two witnesses are the "Future representatives of God on earth.
 
     The ministry of the two witnesses begins at the signing of the covenant between Israel and Antichrist backed by ten nations, which starts the 70th week of Daniel. Their ministry ends with their deaths by Antichrist at the "Mid Week", 1260 days after the treaty was signed. Antichrist then reigns for 42 months, 1260 days from the "Mid Week to the end of the 70th week, and the Second Coming of Christ to the earth to establish His Kingdom. Put it all together and Pre-Tribulation Rapture is established.

                                        The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2

   

Paul2,
          I have to agree with how you understand the rapture. I have studied, and read books, followed scripture and still you must know how to read it all, but it together, for me there isn't alot of diff ways you can read the rapture? I've also read the end times series. Which are a great way to introduce the subject like to my kids. We also have the movies. Althought fiction there is some fact that make my kids ask the questions. That is why I am wondering about the pre trib and mid trib rapture. my own personal belief is a pre trib rapture, but I do wonder about the mid trib bliefs, could there be both?  
    Do you have an opinion on if there is both a pre and mid, and what of those who believe in a rapture to begin with, will it make any diff if we believe in a diff time table?
  The rapture is the personal and bodily removal of the Church by Jesus Christ. I think Revelations scares people, we all seem to understand that Revlations is the END so to speak, many find it a difficult read, the symbolic speech, its real hard to completly understand it. MOST defiatnly it need to be read, and researched. As a majority teaching it appears that the PRE trib rapture is the most often taught. That in itself could speak alone, but for me, I was still  a sceptic, and its was easy to confuse the rapture, and the second coming of Christ, and the resurerrections  ect ect ect..SO for the layman such as myself I did my own reading and found that I believed as most of the sholars did, in a pre trib ratpure, its the only way it could all fit together. I read thru Revlations and some I did understand most I didn't. BUT with the back bone of Daniel, Isa, Thes, all the other books I began to make a complete picture. SO I usually Begin Reading in 1 Thes 4:13. DO all the cross referencing and reading the old with the new Testaments. My concern now is for so, my children. There is a measure of hope that there is a mid trib ratpure those who have been taught but have not made that comittment. I have 6 beautiful children, one a foster son who is only 4 yr old. I've done my best, and still feel as tho I should have done more for the first 5. But that little one, So its important to me, that he be taught wisely and with Godly understanding. I was mostly curious how most felt about the rapture as a true teaching, and how some might understand it the diff times it could occur.
    thank you for your understanding, and your teachings. I couldnt' agree more with you.





 
 
 


 

     There is only one Rapture for the true Church. Read the letter to Laodicea to see the fate of the false Church. They are vomited out of the body of Christ. Jesus is outside and knocking on the outer door of this "church" asking to be let in. This group believe they are saved but are not do to doctrinal error. The fate of the Laodicean Church is to be vomited out of the true church at the Rapture and to become the Harlot of Revelation 17.

     Salvation is through faith and belief, but when faith is closely analized flaws may appear.

    Many cults believe "in Jesus" but when details are examined, the "Jesus" they believe in is not the same JESUS of the Bible.

                    JESUS of the Bible

  1. Born of a virgin- deny this and you have a different Jesus
  2.Worker of Miracles- deny this ...different Jesus
  3 Committed NO sin- deny this ...different Jesus
  4 Jesus is Deity, 2nd person of the God Head Trinity.
  5 Died for the sins of man
  6 Jesus rose BODILY from the grave
  7 Jesus is coming back

   Now cults and "isms" deny one or more of those "facts"
   Mormons believe Jesus is the Spirit brother of Lucifer...different Jesus. Jehovah's witnesses deny Deity.

How much can a person deny about the true Jesus Christ
becomes the Paramount Question!

     Can you "get away" with arguing against the truth of His word? What if for years you misinterpreted scripture, openly attacked His true Word and its meaning but believed you were right? I don't believe you can deny any of the 7 things I numbered and "get away" with it because those beliefs determine whether Jesus is qualified to Save you. I think you must understand WHO Jesus is (GOD) to be Saved by Him.

     But what about prophecy for instance, somebodies wrong, If Pre-Trib. Rapture is Jesus plan and I see it correctly, evryone who opposes the view must be wrong. Same goes for me if Pre. Trib. Rapture is not the truth. Somebodies going to be in trouble for arguing against the truth of the Word of God.

    It is written, not many of you should be teachers for you will be judged more severly,  paraphasing for time sake.

    How much false assumption about Jesus can a person "get away with" before Salvation is affected. How many lies will Jesus tolarate about himself?

    What about those little details, like the "length of His hair", did he have a beard or not, he did by the way. People will argue about many little details. Recently been in a debate about hair length because I revealed that I have a ponytail, because I believe Jesus had one from the Shroud of Turin which I believe was His burial shroud.

    Wish I knew the Answers to all these questions, but I don't and nobody knows for sure except God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

    To be on the safe side becareful!

                                           the Pre. Trib. View by Paul2

Paul2 said.......
        ...Wish I knew the Answers to all these questions, but I don't and nobody knows for sure except God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

    To be on the safe side becareful!.....

I've often wonder about this very thing. My brother a few years back found great comfort in a certain faith, that I totally and completely disagreed with. When he begin to try to convince me and my mom, my kids ect ect......I come about with my own defense of the Jesus that I understood. AND MOST defiantly Jesus and Satan were NOT spirit borthers. Funny how he'd not heard that teaching from his so called, missionaries who came each week.  How much truth is told before that one lie :'(...........that is the real scarey part. They can be going along with scripture and then they'll slip in a few item that might not seem important, but in reality,  ANYTHING diff that what scripture teaches is wrong.  The big debate over the rapture is a good example. There is so much at stake. I would NEVER intentionanly teach error, its too a important. BUT believing in A rapture weather pre mid or post.......? I pray that timing doesn't make a difference. As long as your heart belongs to Jesus. The right Jesus I might add. I do find that I can get undiplomatic when it come to 2 things.......one teaching  a diff Jesus that the scriptures tells us, and teaching that "my church" is the only way to Heaven, completely leaving Jesus out of it.....gggrrrr. That erks me to NO end.
      I am confused on this "secret" that some say is the pre trib rapture. I don't see it as secret, this McDonnel women spoken about in the first post of this thread, was a misinformed women or who ever wrote the vision down or something, ANY vision contray to the word is not of God. So I would like to clear up that little misunderstanding. A PRE TRIB RAPTURE isn't NOT secret.
       Thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from the heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God......
       Horse sense would tell me that the voice of God with a shout, and voice of an archangel, would be heard pretty loud and clear, not to mention a trumpet of God. Heard  by those who are dead, and those alive in Christ to begin with. SO already this "sceret" is against the word, so that makes it bogus, null and void to the the truth. SO do we throw the WHOLE idea of rapture out the window? DO we look and find for ourselves, with prayer and study.... the truth is there is a rapture, the falseness in the secret that was suggested.......don't throw out the baby with the bathwater anology.
      It makes perfect sense to take a measure of the truth, and add a little more to it, as I said earlier. Some truth has to be told, or NO ONE would listen to begin with. Does that make sense. IT take widson and vigilance to hold on to the truth, and seems more so these days. We would all be wise to check out any teachings we hear to the word. I pray that we can do that here.  I'm placing the scripture I use for those who want to do just that.
       1 Thes 4:13, even Titus 2;13 speaks about Jesus return and the removal of the dead and those alive in Christ. what I call the rapture. Before the 7 yr tribulation.
  Who is the church found in
Jonh 14:1-3, 1 Cor. 15:51-53, and 1Thes. 4:15-5:11, more in 1 Cor. 3:11-15, 2 Cor 5:10.
      Tribulation judgements, ect ect are taught  John 14:1-3, 1 Thes 4:13-18,  Jer 30:7, Dan 9:24-27, and Dan 12:1, 2Thes 2:7-12, Rev. 16.  Matt 24:15-31, Matt 25:31-46 and 2 Thes 2:7-12. This does include the 70th week spoken about in Daniel.
   Cross reference, flip back and forth, Rev, Daniel, ect ect. You will begin to make sense, but you have to be presistant and prayerful.
       More scripture teaching about the millennial reign. But as a layman on this subject I find that for NOW, that I keep these two seperate until I fully understand the rapture, tribulations ect ect. They are easly confused for me.
 OK maybe I can get some sleep now.
Gods riches blessing to you all.
       
       

Tnx, Paul2 and musiclover

i'll read it *very* close the coming days and maybe even come up with an answer :)

No hurry towtombs, to be on the safe side, I'm going to be ready when ever it happens. But appreciate your efforts. ;)

   The Rapture is NOT a SECRET, the Rapture is a MYSTERY, that can be solved by being a detective and analizing ALL the evidence. Lazy detectives that ignore key pieces of evidence end up with false conclusions. The truth is hidden from those who do not seek the truth. God didn't want the whole word to understand His plan, but only those of the Church to understand His perfect plan. The world will be tricked by Antichrist and that is part of Gods wrath. We Christians are supposed to search diligently for the truth that has been hidden in the word for us to find. God keeps His plans secret from some as the prophets didn't even understand all the details of the prophecies they were writing but to His Church Jesus wills for us to search out His truth. He gave us His battle plan, with all the details for us to search out and understand, with the guidence of the Holy Spirit. When searching for truth we should ask that the Holy Spirit reveal to our minds the truth in the word. I ask for wisdom, and knowledge, not fame or fortune. Careful what you ask for, you just might get it! ;)

                                                          Paul2

Paul2,
       I like that, calling it a mystery, cause truly it is. SO much of how God has his word written is a mystery, and yes it that way for a reason. For the issues of salvation, its pretty black and white. For the deeper things of God it takes diligance, prayer, and sometimes wise council. The rapture is written in such away that if one begins to study it it draws you into a complete study of the bible, sometimes its confusing but you have to keep searching......as least that is the way it is for me....to solve some of the mystery...I love it.. The Holy Spirit pops on like a light bulb for me. I get that OHHHH that makes so much sense now. It truly is something that each person has to gain on there own. God plants those mysteries for us...honestly it does divide those who are truly seeking, those who don't care, and that too is Gods plan.
    Our message at church today was on the The mysteries of Chirst to name a few..... Not to long ago the mystery of child birth, male or female, even longer back the mystery of  how the human body was made. As time goes on man challenges these mysteries. We can now tell the sex of a baby before it is born, the human body for the most part is known, but the mind of God will NEVER been know.....the greatest comfort I have somedays is the very fact that God never changes. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. The plan for his church hasn't changed. Taught from the time of Christ till now, what God put into motion is still move in the same direction. It will happen. People say no rapture but God isn't going to let his plan get mistrepresented, there is a whole Church at stake here. It was taught, the rapture is a true even Jesus taught it in Matt, from his very lips he taught us. It will happen. And its important that people have at least that understanding.
      Rich blessings
       

http://www.lifetalk.net/2ndcoming/ee.html (http://www.lifetalk.net/2ndcoming/ee.html)

this link will give a quick view of some of the scriptures used in the believe or the raprure, not to mention the vidio that goes with it. Makes me have goose bumps. Please paste and copy this and check it out.

I'm back :)

After contemplating the first real account of the pre-trib rapture i've come to another question that might fill me in some more on the pre-trib rapture.

After a very, very, good friend of mine gave his work on the rapture to me to continue ( for that work he was awarded a special masters-degree in Theology at the university of Cape Town in South Afrika ) it's been a little more then seven years now....

This master piece that took him over 20 years to complete he painfully accurate pointed out that the feast that will fullfill the Rapture will be the Feast of Trumpets. And just as the Pesach is fullfilled on the exact day it was ordained so many years ago, Rosh Hashasnah, wich marks the end of the year and the start of a new one, is going to be the day of the Rapture.

I have got a 0% deviation from that day; this is for real.

What only remains is the year; 7 years are left for the Jews, those are the years that were cut short and started the church ages so many years ago, and its end will mark the end of the Age; all generations (in portions of 40 years) will then be fullfilled

Now here is my question: were do you place the Gog-Magog event, at the beginning or at the end of the Trib. ?

When you notice the length of the Rosh Hashasnah feast you might know the theological importance of my question.

Twotombs,
         I think I understand you question. I even did a little internet search, Christian Dictionary search, and goodle search. Anything Christian had "0" responses. Goodle had several everything form a Gog-Magog Golf Course, to giants of old. SO I assume you must be referring to giants. I know Goliath was from Goth, is that something to do with this, and how does this apply to the Rapture, or endtimes? Laymans terms for me Please.

Twotombs,
  Gog and Magog, 21:96  I am shock.........this comes from the Koran?  ??? Can you explain or am I little slow here. Are you a Muslim?

First of all: my nick is Two Bombs, wich is an old atari OS error
Second: I do not buy this 2nd hand faith called Islam
Third: Gog and Magog is in

Eze 39:1     Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

It is the judgement of the end-times when carefully read you can read a lot out of Eze 39

Yet Paul was close, very close with the giants of old; for these days shall be as in the days of old :) And as the flood in those days came over them, sudden destruction shall come upon those that say: " Peace, peace, and there is no peace"

"Woe unto the false shepards, that lead not my flock, but let it go astray"

TOW BOMBS,
    1          LOL.......sorry that does sound better doesn't it. I'll be sure and remember that. Just read something the other day where some test was done when people read the usually only read the first and last letters.........guess that is proven in this case.
    2, I'm wiping the sweat off.......ThanK God, I liked you anyway but now at least I know we are on the same page. Well at least in the same book. :) I was searching for something else and ran into this phrase,  thought it was wierd. So I'll put my shock back in my pocket.
   3, I'll read Eza.  So do you thing this is literal giants or possible a world power?
     STill friends I hope. Forgive me.

Musiclover: no, the analogy between the Giants of old as a reason for the flood and the people that fell/fall away from the faith and wear the mark is enough for me :)

Twobombs,
            OK now we're on the same page, totally agree. But you have to agree there are some mighty big powers at play here.....only we know is going to win........nay nay nay boo boo...... ;D
    thank you for setting me straight.

Totally agree.  Didn't think I'd ever see that at CU.

5020,
      See miracle do happen........ :)

Paul2,
       So in totally we are talking about 21 letters?


     I think this is one of the best teaching I have heard (read) on how to read Revelations. Its easly missed, and so very right if your not careful you are lead off in a diff direction. Not seperating the tenses.

       I want to mention my earlier post on Justin Maytr. He was several years after the death of Chirst. And he taught about the removal of the church. It seem the earlier the teachings the more people thing it holds water.  That would seem to be a good rule of thumb at least.
     The disagreements over the end times, rapture is as old as the scriptures themselves I suppose. So if Justin had this "gathering together" in the second century.......then what of Jesus Christ himself?
Beginnning  at Matt 24:4, these are Christs own words He begins to describe tribulations, that we read about in Thes Cor. and on.
        How can Matt 24:15  Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation spoken about by Daniel the prophet (Dan 9:23),standing in the holy place, then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.....
     
HOW can anyone misread this? Christ is talking about a rapture.  

       Stay forever teachable,

I think that if the church is defined correctly then,we would have to admitt that it's here til the secound coming.
Who is in the church? All that believe the Gospel of the kingdom are church members.During the tribulation its clear that many are saved by Christ, therefore are members of the church.
There is only one Gospel, one faith, one baptism. One Church.

If others after the church is supposedly removed are saved by Christ, then does Jesus have two bodies?No way!
One kingdom , One church of the kingdom.
If anyone gets to heaven it's only through the Lord Jesus Christ. And through His gospel. So what is the result of the gospel , baptised into Christ by the spirit, sealed until the day of redemption .

LoggedintoJesus : at first sight you are right, but when the restrainer is removed we're back in OT days again....  for a short while though, but OT nevertheless. What are your thoughts on that ?

Hi, glad to meet you, I pray you find your membership here fruitful, and sweet. Jesus is Lord everywhere .....Ok I wanted to respond to something you said.


  Difinition of "Church" is those who hearts belong to Jesus, man women, rich poor, NO denominations but ALL that know him as master and Savior.

          A few questions, are you saying "second coming" as in at the end of the time of tribulations? Second coming when Jesus will come as he left only desending not assending,  Jesus will stand, with feet on the ground,
Act 1:9-11  
     ..... Now when He spoken these things, while they watched, he was taken up and a cloud recieved him out of their sight.
       And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold 2 men stood by them, in white apparel
       who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus who was taken up from you into heaven will so come in like manner as you say Him to into heaven." ...........

         

This describes the second coming of Christ, he once stood on the ground and rose to Heaven, his return will be at that same place, only decending.......different time though.  
     
         Your saying that the "rapture" of the church is at the end of the 7 yr tribulation time?
          Who is those that will dwell with Jesus in the Millenial reign? Is it scriputral, to remove the church one minute, bring them right back to set up this 1000 yrs after the battle of Armagedon?
       Is it scriptural truth to allow the church to suffer thru the 7 years of tribulations?

      Back to "who is the church", and if or when they are removed.
      We can agree they will be removed right?
       So the question would be when? IF I am understanding you and how you understand the second coming then you believe the church will live through the time of tribulations?

     Correct me if I'm not reading it correct please.  As I've said earlier some get the second coming and the "rapture" confused. They are 2 seperate times, takes place differently. The removal of the church (rapture) is Christ meeting his church in the air, Christ doesn't set foot on earth as the angel describe in the Act scripture I just shared. and can be read about again in 1 Thes 4:17.......caught up together with them (dead in Christ) in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.....

     My understanding, is the Church will removed before the time of Tribulations.
         Tribulations is describe in Rev.

     Read carefully the scriptures and pray.
          The church is removed before Wrath of God come to fall on the unbelievers, before the anti christ begins his evil rule,
    the scriptures you shared are right and true, but pull them out a little more......one body one baptism, one Lord........AMEN and AMEN.........
   Tribulations is the begining of the "Day of the Lord" 1 Thes. 5:2, and Zech 14:1 (note the THEN at the beginning of the 3rd verse, this imply that after Christ has gathered all the nations to battle against.....the remants of the people shall not be cut off frorm the city.
     "remnant" is the church, God always has a remnant)
 Jer. 30......For that day is great, so that none is like it, and it is the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.
         Christ has no reason to bring wrath upon his "church" its those outside the church that he will bring wrath upon.

     1 Thes  5:1 and on
Mostly verse 9  ........God did not appoint us to wrath., but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.......that  whether we wake, (alive,) or sleep (dead)we should live together with him.
         

          I agree that there is one body........ share you scriptures please, where is is clear that the church will remain thru the time of Tribulations?

Some will be saved thru that time of tribulations but its going to be hard, and difficult, those who refuse the mark, those who die claiming Jesus are Martyrs of the faith. I agree that some do "stay clean" that some of the church is here, those who found Faith and kept it.....someone begins the battle at Armagedon, ..... the saints spoken about in Rev 16:16 gather against the evil and begin a battle but who shows up but Jesus Christ (Rev 19:11)
   
blessings,

Hello Twobombs!!
You are talking about 2 Thess 2 v 6,7,8  I think!

The way I understand the passage is;That which withholdeth is to me not totally clear, but I have some thoughts.
We are told that their is a falling away first then the antichrist is revealed, to me this falling away is the work of the spirit of iniquity that began working back in apostle Pauls time, Paul mentioned it.
Today we can see that sin is increasing and many false prophets are showing false signs and false doctrines ,etc.Benny Hinn would be an example.
The result of this causes a general falling away from God," all men have seen the grace of God "(Romans) men have a conscience that knows what is right and wrong, but they sin against that conscience until they have virtualy little or none left, Homosexuals are an example of this.
A combination of false relgion , and sin abounding , causes a falling away from God in many ways.
True Christianity  becomes an unknown way of life for the men in general,and totally unexceptable too.
This all gives room for the Antichrist to rise as He will relate to the desires of men in general,after all the spirit of antichrist has been working a long time , and is coming to its climax.

verse 7He that letteth is God , God lets the antichrist have his hour. Then the antichrist is taken out of the way , by the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

verse 8 is again the statement that the antichrist is destroyed by the brightness of the coming of the LORD JESUS CHRIST.Amen!!

Hello twobombs again!!

After reading  Hebrews chapter 7,8,9,10

It is not possible that the O.T. can be reactivated.

Jesus Christ is for ever the Only way to God.

So then for anyone to saved it must be through Jesus Christ the Lord. That applies to Jew and Gentile.

There is no scripture in the N.T. that validates another way to God. P.S. the antichrist would like people to believe so.

LoggedintoJesus: I use the term OT to describe the pre-trib believers sense of time after the years that "the One that witholds" (the judgement) to let the fullness of the gentiles come in.

The only way to make a pre-trib Rapture work is when you believe that there are going to seven years in wich a world leader, world church and world state emerges, where Israel will have it's short (false) peace after a brutal attack against its soil; and that you believe that the Church won't be around to see it.....

Pre Trib believers believe that they will never see the AC rise to power; they assume they'll be raptured beforehand. A lot of people on TBN believe that also; but not enough reason for me to call them or their doctrine false (I think that's a very dangerous thing to do and all)

Yet those seven years do not come out of thin air; but I am under the assumption that the Rapture and the 2nd coming are not very far apart timewise speaking; just as Rosh Hashasnah and Yom Kippour aren't far apart from eachother.

Another strong reason for me not to put too much faith into a pretrib rapture is the conversion and repentance of the Jews in Israel that really stepped up since the early 90's; another proof that God no longer seperates the Jew from the Gentile....  just as in Peter's vision on the roof two thousand years ago.

You'll notice i'm carefull not to judge the concept of a pre-trib rapture, but so far haven't found much hard scriptural evidence for it.

I believe that the rapture , is the second stage of the First resurrection, that happens at the second coming Of Christ,it's all one big glorious event, that everyone will see.No time lapse.Then Jesus Christ stands upon mount of olives and establishes the 1000yr reign upon the earth and all the saints with him. Satan after being bound 1000yrs is loosed,deceives the nations , destroyed from fire from heaven.Then this world is destroyed by fire, and then the New Heaven and the new earth, this is the only new age.  :)

No probs with that bro  ;D

Thanks musicllover for the nice welcome!

When I hear the promises of the Gospel of the kingdom.
Then I must conclude all that partake of the Gospel must be together because the result of believing the Gospel is one.
So whosoever believes in Jesus Christ the Lord, Jew or Gentile is in Christ. Which is His body the church. Sealed until the day of redemption.
There is no other gospel, which would be needed to have another body of believers. No where in the bible is two gospels ever mentioned ,rather only one.
One God, one faith, one baptism, one Gospel ,one kingdom, one household of God,one Israel, one church. they are all inclusive. In the kingdom of God.

So how can we say that those saints in the tribulation are not members of the body of Christ, which is the church?

There would have to be another way to God, another gospel, and that is totally  impossible according to the Bible.

So all are one in one God.

I know it sounds really simple, but thats the way I believe the bible has it.  Makes good sense too, because they are all together in the end . :) May God Bless you as you Ponder this!

      I understand what your saying, but I've never thought about tribulation saints being a part of any other body of believers. All in all they are still a part of the original body if here or in Heaven. This is a new concept for me, that is why I am asking for scripture. I agree that that as in Eph we are one body, one baptism ect ect.  
        Explain how you believe that tribulation would seperate the boby? Or maybe it would be the pre trib rapture that seperates us. And I can pray and study, possilbe understand where you are coming from.
      RICH blessing to the believers of Jesus CHrist this beautiful day.
 
         

   The Church is Raptured BEFORE the 7 year tribulation period. People left behind that become believers will not be part of the Church but Tribulation Saints. The Church is the Bride of Christ, Tribulation Saints will be friends of the bride Groom. The Church has a different destiny than Israel, old testament Saints and Tribulation Saints. Notice the word "Church" is used 19 times in Revelation 1-3 and not mentioned again until after chapter 19- Why? because the church was in Heaven during Daniel's 70th week with is what takes place from chapter 4 through chapter 19. The Church is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, Old testament saints were not and Tribulation Saints will be "led" by the Holy Spirit but not indwelt. The Church has a special destiny, and the Rapture does to things, it ends the Church age and age of Grace, and brings in the 7 years of Tribulation and wrath.

    Anybody wondering about what I write should go back and read all my posts on the subject. I have a thread titled Paul2's Pre-Trib-Rapture pages that give some back ground.

      Musiclover, there are 7 letters in Revelation that serve 3 purposes, not 21 letters. Each letter was first to the Church it was written to, second for the universal Church (all believers of all time periods, third, they are prophetic of the different periods the Church would go through. The Church leaves earth in Chapter 4 of Revelation when the world enters into "the things which must take place here after" read Revealtion 4:1. This is my favorite subject and i've spent 13 years reseaching it. The more I study it the more evidence of Pre-Tribulation Rapture I find, never anything that makes a case for mid or post Trib. Rapture.

     I've been busy lately but I'll answer any questions that I'm asked. You'll never understand the book of Revelation if you don't understand Revelation 1:19, once you understand that the rest gets easy and perfectly logical. Revelation is one of the most organized books in the Bible once you understand the format it was written in.

                                            The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2

Paul2: i'm happy with your work on the Rapture; you are one of the few pre-trib believers that actually comes up with scriptural evidence for his or her stance.

Have you heard the preaching of, for example, David Wilkerson lately ? He takes prophecy for the current state and near future of the USA to a new unheard of level. They can be downloaded here at http://sermons.christiansunite.com

The destruction of Babylon as described in Revelation 18:10 isn't very far away bro; the war that is provoking it's own destruction is now for well over 2 years underway. So when you are right 'we' won't see the destruction of the New Babylon.

You see : the end time Flood talked about in matthew 24 isn't about water, it's about fire..... I know that when I live in 2006, 2007 I will witness its destruction. Listen to what Henry Gruver has to say... really... judgement is coming to America. And honestly; I don't know what to do to warn the people; I don't know what to do when the coastal cities are diminished to ashes. but just listen to the preachings of these men...  This is no yoke; I even pray for A4C to grasp this truth :)

You see: i'm not argueing with you about pre-trib.  I even give you more rope :) Matthew 24 talks about the Flood shortly after the Rapture, depicted as Noah entering the Arc just before the Flood.

YEP YEP, that is what I thought you meant but wanted to make sure. It doesnt' hurt to clearify.
     I totally agree, the teaching that the church isn't mentioned in the 70th week of Daniel/Rev/  or during the Tribulations.
     How do you understand those who survive tribulations will be saved,( Meanig anyone who survive with out the mark or who don't deny Christ). Will they see Judgement with out having died?
    I SHUDDER to think about what they must live thru or how they survive.
     I understand that those who recieve the mark are doomed eventually they know the truth,there is not going back once the mark has been taken. Not even death will come to relieve them of the agony here on earth. What kind of spiritual pain they must feel for having denied Christ and having NO way out. I can't even imagine......hell is worse.  If I am understanding this all correctly.
      So here is the problem with the way some believe.....its a very big pill to swallow, loving God, forgiving God to the wrath of God........Doesn't this have something to do with the fact that the Church is gone, the restrainer or Holy Spirit is gone, Jesus is no longer sitting on the right side of GOd interdeeding on our behalf.  The CHURCH is gone period.
        to be for warned, some laugh and mock the idea of a Rapture. Some say its all past or not scriptural.....I am concerned for you. Stubborness, or maybe you just don't see the scriptrual proof, what ever it is...once these things take place you will know then......
DON'T TAKE THE MARK......... die if you must, if you miss the rapture dont take the mark.  If you take it to supposably save yourself, you've sold your soul to the devil, the scriptures tell us there will come a time when not even death can relaease you from the misery here on earth. Screaming out for mercy......there is none left, its gone. The chruch age has ended and the wrath of God has come to those who waited to long or never believed.
  I have a burdend to share this news, we all need to prepare, like the virgins, to be ready. But like the wise virgins a time is coming that not even they shared the oil they had. Can you all see that the CHurch will be gone, the rapture removes the buffer, the restrainer, the peace, the Holy Spirit........Lord have mercy.......sigh  :(

   I copied an old post that is worthy of furthur study and I hate to see it buried in the back pages so take a close look at this:

     2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 is a favorite of Pre-Trib. bashers. They miss the "DAY OF CHRIST" and try to replace it with the Rapture. The "Day of Christ" is the "Wrath of the Lamb."

Lets get some background. Paul was in Thessalonica for 3 weeks and started a Church there. He sent the Church a letter known as 1 Thessalonians. He revealed to the Thessalonians the Rapture. That was the focal point of the 1st. letter.

    Paul got word that the Thessalonians were being confused by false reports being sent to them claiming that they had missed the Rapture and had entered the Day of Christ, the wrath of the Lamb, the Great Tribulation.

    Paul sends another letter to clear up the situation.

2 Thessalonians 2:1  "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.


    The Thessalonians were taught all about the Rapture and what was to follow. Verse 5 "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?" confirms this. They received a false report claiming they had entered the Wrath of the Lamb, which is also called the Day of Christ, which is also called the Great Tribulation. They knew the Rapture was to take place first and assumed they had missed the Rapture. They were told they had entered the Great Tribulation which is the last half of the 70th week of Daniel.

    2 Thessalonians 2:3  "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

    for that day shall not come What day shall not come? The Day of Christ, the Wrath of the Lamb, the Great tribulation. This is the day Paul is focusing on. Paul is focusing on the Day of the Wrath of the Lamb, Jesus Christ. Paul is not talking about the Rapture but the Wrath Of Christ.

    Paul is telling them that the wrath of Christ won't come until the man of sin be revealed (Antichrist). He's assuring them the wrath of the Lamb, Jesus Christ has not come yet.

2 Thessalonians 2:4  "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

      Now Paul tells them Antichrist is to be revealed. We know Antichrist signs the treaty with Israel to start the 70th week of Daniel, 1260 days later he is sitting in the temple claiming to be God. The Wrath of Christ can't begin until Antichrist enters the temple which he will do in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel.

2 Thessalonians 2:5  "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

    Paul reminds them that he had explained this before, and to beware of false messages supposedly from Paul contradicting what he had already taught them. In other words "Believe what I taught you in the first place, don't believe reports that claim you missed the Rapture and The Day of the Lambs wrath has come, The Day of Wrath can't begin until Antichrist is revealed at the signing of the seven year treaty and in the temple claiming to be God 1260 days later.

2 Thessalonians 2:6  "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
  7: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.8: And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


    Now Paul is telling them that Antichrist is restrained and not revealed until the restrainer is removed. The restrainer is the Holy Spirit indwelling the Church. We are restraining Antichrist with the presence of the Holy Spirit indwelling us. At the Rapture the Holy Spirit will stop indwelling men and begin a different ministry of indwelling the two witnesses. When the Church is Raptured, Antichrist will be revealed and not until the Rapture.

    The "falling away" can be taken two ways, back sliding, and removal. I plan on falling away from earth to meet the Lord in the air.

2 Thessalonians 2:9  "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
  10: And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
"

    Antichrist is part of Gods judgment. A part of the wrath of the Lamb is allowing Antichrist to perform miracles for 42 months, the last half of Daniels 70th week. When God is sending delusions to believe lies your in the wrath of the Lamb.

    Summing it up, the Rapture is the focal point of
1 Thessalonians. The day of Christ, wrath of the Lamb, Great Tribulation is the focal point of 2 Thessalonians.

                                          The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2
   

Musicllover hello! I do not believe anything can divide the 1 body of Christ, and that all that believe in Christ are in the 1 body.pre or post trib = 1body.
But many pre tribbers believe that at the pretrib rapture the body of Christ is complete.And those saved in the  trib are not of the church which is the 1 body. But then if that were true then another gospel would be needed, and that is not possible.Some think that the old covenant will be reinstated and Jews will get saved too, this is not possible either.
Only 1 Gospel for ever , only 1 way Jesus for Jew first and Gentile.
I dont know what you believe ,but this argument puts a rather large hole in Pre trib rapture theory.
God Bless !!!

You said........I dont know what you believe ,but this argument puts a rather large hole in Pre trib rapture theory.....

        Only if you believe that there are 2 bodies, I don't believe there is any diff in the before or after saints. Those taken up with Jesus, then some will die during trib, some will live thru. I'm not sure if I am following you correctly.  Like I said earlier I don't see how a "rapture" would seperate the body of believers? If you belong to Christ, before then you'll be raptured up to meet Jesus in the air, and that is it...... there is no one saved from that point on, I'm not sure I would agree with that teaching, I need to study more, but at the moment I believe if you become a "tribulation saint, your saved to be with Jesus.  If you live thru the time of tribulations then I would think God would still honor your sincerity.......that being those who have truly asked and recieved. I have just never heard of this teaching before, so its new to me.  A scripture from John 10, Jesus talks about the sheep pen, and the sheep know the shepards voice and will follow only his voice. And that there are "other Sheep, that are not of this pen..." Jesus is the gate, the only way to Heaven, as the sheep know his voice. NO one who knows Jesus voice will be left behind.
    I do believe that Jews do come to know who Jesus and are saved, not because of any restoring of the old testement convent. For a very short while a treaty is set up with Isreal, and animal sacrifices do begin again. The anit Christ breaks the treaty, abominations spoken about. .
     But other than you "opinon" what script do you have to support yourself.
Rich blessings

Hey Paul2,

It accidentaly found more stuff about the the pre-trib rapture, are you praying for me ? :)

Let me cut-n-paste :
http://www.bycovenant.com/feast6.html

The number two in the Word speaks of testimony, the number of witness. The prophet Joel also peaks of two separate trumpets in chapter 2 verse 1 and verse 15 of his book.

* 1. "Blow the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in My holy mountain". ……. 2. "Blow the trumpet in Zion, Consecrate a fast, call a Sacred assembly".

The first, the call of "alarm" prophetically speaks of Israel's ingathering to Zion, Jerusalem, which occurred in 1967. The second blowing, a "call for the sacred or solemn assembly" is for the faithful in Messiah Y'Shua, as we will discover.

Fulfillment of the 5th feast, the "feast of the Blowing of the Trumpets", prophetically represents the "catching away" of the faithful.

* "For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God … we, which are alive and remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord". 1Thess 4:16-17.

Israel has been re-established upon the mountains of Israel in 1948, briefly to Jerusalem in 1967. The first trumpet has been fulfilled. There is no doubt that the second trumpet of the feast speaks of the catching away of the faithful This will be fulfilled soon, in this the "generation to come" or as it is written in the Hebrew, mmwy tyrha - "Acharit Acharon" which literally means "the Last Generation". (Psalm 102:19, Matthew 24:34).

It is important to note that there are eight days between the feasts of Trumpets and the Day of Atonement. This time signifies the time from the catching away of the faithful, the Bride, and the 2nd Coming. The seven-year Great Tribulation will commence the day after the feast of Trumpets when the Bride has been taken away "to be with the Lord". Your question may be at this time, "Why then are there eight days and not seven days between these feasts?" The answer to part one of these questions is this. 1. It is important to realize that eight in Scriptural numerals means, "a new beginning" and "life" as we have learned from the Chai back in Passover. Thus, these eight days are a time of reflection and of repentance. The Lord’s "Two Witness" and the 144,000 redeemed of the House of Israel, (Revelation 7:4), will bring millions into a new "beginning" with the gift of "life eternal", as Y’Shua becomes Lord of their lives. The days between the two feasts (see note) are called by Israel the "ten days of repentance". Again, a perfect picture of the Tribulation time, as indeed many of Israel and the Gentiles will repent during that time. 2. Part two of the answer is. There are indeed seven days shown between the beginning of the Tribulation to the day prior The Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur. The following note will explain this.

Note: - Israel includes the feast day of Trumpets, as day one, and the Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur as day 10. However, between the two actual feasts there are eight days. However, as the Tribulation will commence the day after Trumpets, a Sabbath day, with the Bride taken away, this means there are now seven days between that day and Yom Kippur, representing the week, or seven-years of antichrist, the beast.


_______

I find this amazing....  I have been soooo reluctant to accept the pre-trib view, but the stuff above is very, very compelling to say the least....

A few scriptures that state that Christ is for all and the Gospel,which would exclude all other ways to God, what ever they are.

romans 5 v18, romans 8 v16-23  romans  9 v 27 - 33 romans 10 v 12- 21  Romans 16 v27
1 cor v18,24  1cor 2v 11  1 cor 15 v22-28  2cor 5 v14-19  galatans 1 v 7,8,9 gal 3 v 26-29   gal 6 v 15,16,17
Eph 1v10  eph 1 v 21,22,23  eph 3v21    eph 4 v 4,5,6  Col1 v13-20   col 2 v10    2 thess 1 v 8  hebrews 1v2,3  heb 7v17  heb 12 v22,23   1 peter v11    1peter v1v25   1peter 2v4-9   ipeter 4 v 6  1 John 2 v1,2 ,3,4  1 John  2 v 22,23  1John 5v10,11,12,13   2 John v7,8,9,10    jude v 3

THIS IS A RECORDING:

THE RAPTURE CAME AT 12:00 A.M.

IF YOUR READING THIS, YOU HAVE BEEN LEFT BEHIND WITH TWOBOMBS  :)

Brother Love  :)

     But other than you "opinon" what script do you have to support yourself.
Rich blessings

A few scriptures that state that Christ is for all and the Gospel,which would exclude all other ways to God, what ever they are.

romans 5 v18, romans 8 v16-23  romans  9 v 27 - 33 romans 10 v 12- 21  Romans 16 v27
1 cor v18,24  1cor 2v 11  1 cor 15 v22-28  2cor 5 v14-19  galatans 1 v 7,8,9 gal 3 v 26-29   gal 6 v 15,16,17
Eph 1v10  eph 1 v 21,22,23  eph 3v21    eph 4 v 4,5,6  Col1 v13-20   col 2 v10    2 thess 1 v 8  hebrews 1v2,3  heb 7v17  heb 12 v22,23   1 peter v11    1peter v1v25   1peter 2v4-9   ipeter 4 v 6  1 John 2 v1,2 ,3,4  1 John  2 v 22,23  1John 5v10,11,12,13   2 John v7,8,9,10    jude v 3

Long.......,
                I have made a copy of the scriptures you've offered, I hope to get some time to check them out. Thanks for sharing. I am swamped with homework. And my brain is already working 24/7 with algebra........The scriptures says Godwon't give us more than we can bear right.......so algebra will not get me down, algebra will NOT win, I will conquer Algebra...........
Hope to get back with you before the rapture..... :P

Getting raptured would just make my day ! so lets go Im ready.If it was so easy !!!

You don't have to 'do' anything for it; just to sit this one out :)

But nobody is going to say to me that the Father of time hasn't ordained a day as fullfulment of His Feast (remember matthew? enter into the feast) and also at the end of an era (,atthew again: when you see these things...), in that there is a day and an hour for for the Rapture, just as there is a day and an hour for everything that happend under the sun.

I believe !  The Day of the lord shall come as a thief in the night.1 thessalonians 5 v2

I believe!  Rev 22 v12  And behold , I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. ;)

The fulness of the gentiles is when the Lord comes back the second time.
Read Zechariah 12, 13, 14

zechariah 12 v10  And I will pour upon the house of david ,and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace , and of supplications : AND THEY SHALL LOOK UPON ME WHOM THEY HAVE PIERCED, AND THEY SHALL MOURN FOR HIM,

This clearly is after the Lord has Come. Read the context of the chapter of this book.

the last week is in Daniel 9 v27  this is when Jesus showed Himself alive to his followers after his resurrection.

read the context of Daniel 9: 24-27

Its talking about the death of Christ and his work on earth that he has already done.

It speaks of destruction that already happened in 70 ad.

To apply this to the future is a gross misunderstanding of the scriptures.

THANK YOU,
                I've not read thru recent the posts yet, I'm just so excited, you might debating against what I believe in but this last post FINALLY got me back on. My computer crashed and took all my favorites to cyber space. So now I have my link back in place, this time I am saving a copy of my favorites.
        Finals are coming up.......pray for me, or let the rapture come first. (praises! wouldn't that be grand). I am reading along so please keep posting, I'll get around to posting one of these days. I'll need a break from algebra before to long....
Jesus is Lord!!!!!!!

The Kingdom comes

We change, ie "rapture" when the Kingdom Comes -- to us with Jesus Christ leading the way, not the other way around.

When Jesus returns in His second Advent -- we all change  ;D :)

LIKE HIM

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

SHOW YOU A MYSTERY

1 Corinthians 15:51-58   Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all * sleep, but we shall all be changed
 
[52][/b] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  

For you Bible scholars out there, you know what the "Last-Trump" means -- the seventh trumpet of Revelation

For you Jewish Hebrew scholars * out there, you know what the "Last-Trump means -- Jewish idiom for the feast of Rosh Hashanah.

[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.  

[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.  

[55]  O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?  

[56] The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.  

[57] But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.  

[58] Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.  

Note:* No man knows the day nor hour is a old Jewish idiom for the feast of Rosh Hashanah.

Also, the phrase “like a thief” is an idiom for Rosh Hashanah -- It is called the Unknown day, the Shout, a thief in the Night, the Awakening blast, the Open Door, the Last Trump.

This is a day that you do not know when it begins within a time period of two days, the two separate days are considered to be one single day.

God bless

Peace

      I've still not read the scripts you shared, so forgive me. I am in the middle of study for tests and then more finals. And my middle son was hit by a car a few days ago. He is in the Naval hosp in Calf, badly broken leg, dislocated shoulder, broken nose, and thank GOD no internal injuries. SO I'm feeling torn between wanting to be there for him and what I have to do in Mo.
       But I did want to say, or ask maybe. To misread the srciptures as far as ones salvation good me a gross error,,,,,,but to misread the scriptures on the end times......well not sure. Is my believing in a rapture going to cost me my salvation? Or the way you believe? The way I understand is that there is a Rapture, I see more evidence pointing to that than the other way.... And each time I looking into this debate I am amazed that anyone one could read it differently but it happens.......alot. I find it fasinating, God created the human mind, our ability of choice, and our ability to reason and talk.......that is what makes it so very very cool, rapture or not, I'll save a place in glory land for ya, and we can talk about the "remember when I thought"......lol. anyway. So I disagree but in a nice way. Yes Daniel speaks in past tense, but it could be because daniels vision is to do with the time after the tribulation as well.......just a thought.
     I don't want the spark to go on the thread maybe I can get around to reading your scripts soon, maybe on the plane ride to Calf. Sons military carreer maybe be over.......don't know. The marine unsung motto.......HURRY UP and wait.....