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“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:”  Acts 15:24

   The Ten Commandments are the very heart of the Old Covenant between God and Israel.  In many of today’s churches the Ten Commandments play an important role.  Many of the churches in the area in which I live start their services each week by reciting the Ten Commandments.  Many professing Christians will use the Ten Commandments as the ultimate guide and rule for their life.  In our society conflicts concerning the Ten Commandments are often in the national news.  Almost every year we hear of a court case concerning the display of the Ten Commandments in public places such as schools or court buildings.  
   With the emphasis that many churches place on the Ten Commandments as well as all the fuss in society concerning them, one would think that Ten Commandments would be very well understood especially by religious people.  In fact just the opposite is true.  If religious people really understood the law of Moses (in which the Ten Commandments are the very heart) they would be horrified by what they have done with them.
   If a person was to claim that the Ten Commandments never applied to the gentiles and that they applied only to the Jews from Moses to the cross many would label this person as a heretic. If the person went on to say that the Ten Commandments was a ministry of death and condemnation and was not given for a righteous man many would say that this person is not only a heretic, but a lunatic as well.  If this person went on and said the Law of Moses was made void and made obsolete by Jesus because it had a major fault in it and that those who tried to live by it were cursed, then this person better be prepared to be stoned.  Yet, the Word of God teaches these things and more about the Ten Commandments and the Law of Moses.

Below are a few very important truths concerning the Mosaic law from God’s Word that well greatly help the truth seekers.  

John 1:17 “For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”

Luke 16:16 “The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”

These two verses let us know the beginning and the end of the Mosaic law which was from Moses to the cross of Jesus Christ where He fulfilled the law.

John 1:17 tells us that the law came by Moses. This teaches two important points about the law of Moses. 1, as stated above it had a beginning and 2, that before Moses many generation existed without the law of Moses. This does not mean that people from Adam to Moses were not accountable to God for their sin. Romans 5:13 says “(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.  14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.”

God gave mankind many commandments before Moses came along with the Mosaic law. The first command God gave to mankind in which mankind broke was not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (Gen 1:16). There are many commands God gave to man before Moses Gen. 9 records a few:

Gen. 9:1 “And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.  2  And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth [upon] the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.  3  Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.  4  But flesh with the life thereof, [which is] the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.  5  And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.  6  Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.  7  And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.”


Here God commands mankind to be fruitful and multiply, not to eat flesh with the blood still in it and not to shed another mans blood. God also allows mankind here to eat any animal whether clean or unclean unlike the Mosaic Law which forbids the eating of unclean animals. So we clearly see that even without the Mosaic law mankind was responsible before God concerning his sin. God defined certain sins and set limits upon mankind many generation before Moses, God also judged sin as seen in Romans 5:13-14 many generations before the Mosaic law was given.
Continued

Continued
In Exodus 19 God is going to make a covenant with a certain group of people. This covenant as one can read is the Ten Commandment which follow in Exodus 20. A covenant is a legally binding contract between two or more parties. In this case the text of Exodus 19 is clear that the covenant (contract)  is between God and the children of Israel that were delivered from Eygpt.

Ex. 19:1 “In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they [into] the wilderness of Sinai.  2  For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come [to] the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount.  3  And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;  4  Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and [how] I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.  5  Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine:  6  And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.  7  And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.  8  And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.”

There are two very important observations that a careful student of God’s Word will notice in these verses.

1. The Ten Commandment was a covenant that God made ONLY with the children of Israel.

Verse 1 “children of Israel”, verse 2 “Israel”, and in verse 3 “the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;”

It is clear that God is making this covenant with only one group of people, Israel. No gentile nations or people are even mentioned or hinted at in this passage. God is singling one nation out of the entire world and making a covenant with then exclusively. Deuteronomy 5 even claims that the covenant of the Ten Commandments was not even made with the forefathers of Israel but to them alone.

Duet. 5:1 “And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.   2  The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.  3  The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, [even] us, who [are] all of us here alive this day.  4  The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,  5  (I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to shew you the word of the LORD: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount;) saying,”

2. The result of the covenant that God made the with Israel was that they would be a peculiar people distinct and separate from all other people.

Ex. 19:5 says “Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people:” The result of this covenant was to make Israel a “peculiar treasure unto me above all people.” This is important to grasp because it too means that the Ten Commandments were given ONLY to the children of Israel. If the Ten Commandments were given to the gentile nations and people as well then verse 5 would not be true. The covenant God made with Israel made them distinct and separate from all other nations and people in the world which would not be the case if this covenant was for all people.

Today, there are many who want to place Christians under the Ten Commandments which was a Covenant that God made with the children of Israel from Moses to the cross only. In doing so they tempt God and subvert the souls of those who listen to them (Acts 15:1,5,10,24). In effect they become enemies of the cross of Christ and rob the liberty (which is the freedom to serve Christ) a child of God has in Christ. A child of God would do well not to listen to their deceptive lies and instead obey from the heart Galatians 4 and throw out the bondwoman.

Gal. 4:21 “Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?  22  For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.  23  But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.  24  Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.  25  For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.  26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.  27  For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.  28  Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.  29  But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now.  30  Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.  31  So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.  5:1  Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.”

God bless,
Pilgrim

Galatians 1:6 “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:  7  Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.  8  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.  9  As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”

Some time after the Galatian Church was started and was well on its way to maturity something horrible happened to it. In fact something so dreadful as to cause the apostle Paul to question the profession of the people there (Gala. 4:11,19). The problem Paul was facing head on was that the people were turning from the true gospel to a false gospel. Paul is amazed that this happen so quickly to the people of the Galatian Church.  How did something so horrible happen to a Church that started out so well? We find the answer in verse 7 “but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.” As one reads the book of Galatians they will discover that trouble makers entered in and started teaching that Christians must be circumcised and keep the law of Moses. This very same problem was dealt with by the apostles, elders and brethren of the Church of Jerusalem in Acts 15 (Acts 15:1,5). In Acts 15 the apostles, elders and brethren said that those who taught that a Christian must be circumcised and keep the law of Moses were tempting God and putting a yoke around the neck of the disciples that neither they nor their fathers could bare.

Acts 15:10 “Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?”

They also said that those who taught that a Christian must be circumcised and keep the law of Moses were subverting souls and that they themselves never gave such a command which means that those who taught this did so on their own authority.

Acts 15:23 “And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:  24  Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:”

Notice Acts 15:24 teaches it was those who taught that a Christian must be circumcised and keep the law of Moses who were the troublemakers. Galatians 1:7 teaches the same. In fact Paul teaches in Galatians 1 that those who taught that a Christian must be circumcised and keep the law of Moses were teaching a false gospel. Preaching a false gospel is a serious sin, in fact Paul said “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.“ These are strong words that should strike fear into the hearts of those who teach this false gospel. Yet, even with such a strong curse to anyone foolish enough to teach this false gospel, the Church today has it’s own troublemakers teaching the very same old age false gospel found in Galatians 1.

God bless,
Pilgrim

Pilgrim!

Yes! Yes ! Yes!

What a great statement of the grace of God! The reality of was accomplished in Christ Jesus! Live by the Spirit and not the dead letter! The Living Character of God written on our hearts and not the coldness of stone!

Grace and righteousness. Side by side, hand in hand.  Eternally coexistent, yet the question is which begets, or is dependent upon, the other?            

The understanding of many is that grace is the result of righteous living. It is believed that the grace of God is the reward or payment from the Almighty for living according to His laws (that would be His old covenant laws; i.e. the 10 commandments) and that in living righteously we have earned the right to become a part of the body of Christ. To the legalist (and neither Jesus nor Paul were legalist) grace is a controversial concept, and those who promote it live in danger of being seen as approving of sin.

Nothing could be further from the truth, for to preach grace is to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ.       

How so? Because according to the gospel of John grace is what Jesus brought (For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ -John 1:17).                    
On the one hand is works of the law; on the other is simply trusting Jesus. (John 6:29)

Any "gospel" message that leaves out the grace and truth of Jesus is not a gospel message at all.

The "truth"of this message?

That Jesus is the only way. (Jesus saith unto him "I am the Way the Truth and the Life: no man cometh to the Father but by Me" John 14:6)
                  
In many ways the issue of works and grace for the believer is one of identity. Are those who call themselves Christians called so by works of righteousness (overcoming sin by their own efforts and will),  or is it by birth?    

If the answer is that we are Christians by overcoming this world and our human nature then truly grace is produced and earned by our own virtues and we have something of which to boast. However Paul says "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9  

What the New Testament teaches is that we are sons of God, born of the Spirit (John 1:13, John 3:3, John 3:6, 1Peter 1:23) and that righteousness is not earned, but imparted as a result of that birth! The righteousness of God is imparted by grace through faith! ( "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" - Romans 4:5)
            
So am I saying that one ought not to seek to live righteously? Not at all! This is something Paul was accused of in his preaching of the gospel ( "And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just."  Romans 3:8), rather it is Gods grace that enables us to live righteously by virtue of the Spiritual nature that is born of Him, for as Paul also said "How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? " Romans 6:2
      
Grace is the unmerited favor of God, that teaches us ".. that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world" Titus 2:12 , and as it teaches us it never ceases to be the unmerited favor of God! ; "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us" Titus 3:5   

Amazing Grace indeed!

We'll pray for one another!
 ;)

Amen! psalmistsinger on post #5


Gala. 2:1 “Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with [me] also.  2  And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.  3  But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:  4  And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:  5  To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.”

Titus was living proof that a person could be a Child of God without having to keep the law of Moses. The Word of God says that Titus went with Paul and Barnabas to Jerusalem and was not compelled to be circumcised. Yet, those who would subvert the souls of those who listen to them, teach that one must be circumcised according to the law of Moses in order to be saved. Titus was living proof to the contrary. Notice carefully what Paul has to say about those who teach that Christians must be circumcised and keep the law of Moses. In verse 4 he calls them false brethren which mean that they were not even saved themselves. This is ironic for the very fact that these unsaved subverter of souls were trying to teach others how to be saved. We remember the Words of Jesus as he confronted the Pharisees over this type of hypocrisy in Matthew 23:

Matt. 23:13 “But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.  14  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.  15  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.”

These false brethren were spying on the liberty of the real Christians and trying to bring them under bondage to the mosaic law. Paul was earnestly contending for the faith when confronting these subverter of souls, so much so, that he would not give place to them for even a moment. Like Jesus, Paul had sharp rebukes for these lost religious people and fought earnestly against their false Gospel of works. Today we have these same subverters of souls in our mist who teach that Christians must keep the law of Moses. They like the troublemakers of the past can’t stand the true liberty a child of God has in Christ Jesus and insist that they be put under the bondage of the Mosaic law. They are enemies of the cross and pervert the true Gospel of God and like the Pharisees of old makes their converts twofold more the child of hell than themselves. Thank God for the true Gospel of Jesus Christ which truly sets a soul free.

Pilgrim

Pilgrim, you get **** + a DITTO  ;D

You also get **** + a DITTO  ;D

Gal. 2:21 “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”

Law and Grace cannot be mixed. The apostle Paul made this clear in verse above. The Greek word for frustrate in the above verse means to do away with, to set aside, to disregard, nullify, to make void, to reject, refuse. Those who think that they are establishing righteousness by the deeds of the law have frustrated the grace of God. No wonder Paul announced such a severe judgement on those who taught that Christians must keep the law of Moses (Galatians 1:6). They were leading people to damnation rather than salvation. In doing so they became enemies of the cross as Paul shows in the last part of the verse “for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” The cross of Jesus Christ is the single most significant event in history and those who teach righteousness by the deeds of the law turn this grand event into nothing. This is the exact thing that happen to Israel as a whole. They rejected the righteousness that Jesus gained for those who believe on Him and instead set out to establish their own righteousness by the deeds of the law.

Rom. 9:30 “What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.  31  But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.  32  Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;  33  As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.”

The horrible consequences of trying to be righteous by the works of the law is that those who try to do so will remain lost and without salvation as Paul goes on to explain:

Rom. 10:1 “Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.  2  For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.  3  For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.  4  For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.  5  For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.  6  But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down [from above]:)  7  Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)  8  But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;  9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.  10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.  11  For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.”

Paul acknowledges that Israel had a zeal for God, the problem though was that it was not according to knowledge. In others words they were religious but lost. They rejected the righteousness that God offered them through Jesus and foolishly thought that they could attain righteousness by the deeds of the law. In doing so they demonstrated their unbelief. Their only hope of salvation would be to repent of their own efforts of righteousness by the deeds of the law and accept the righteousness of God which one freely receives through the cross of Jesus.

Law and Grace cannot be mixed. Living by law will bring damnation and death, living by Grace will bring life and a clear conscience before God. Those who teach righteousness through law keeping subvert the souls of those who foolishly listen to them, those who teach salvation by the grace of God bring the words of life to those who listen to them.

Pilgrim

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?"
2Corinthian 3: 7-8.

 I have been told, “You speak so much of grace and love, yet the Bible contains two covenants.  Is there not a balance in God?”
     
The answer is yes, there is balance in God for a  "..just weight is his delight"  (Proverbs 11:1),  but the balance to grace is not law!
    
The balance of God is given to us in the scriptures. "For the law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1: 17).

The Grace and Truth that Jesus brought is the balance of, and in, God!

A just balance requires an equal weight.  On a balancing scale only 7 pounds is equal to 7 pounds; 6 just won’t do!   So neither is the letter (the law) that kills equal to the Spirit (grace) that gives Life!

The bible tells us that God is One and that He is Word (John 1:1) and Spirit (John 4:24), and herein lies the just weight; for only GOD equals GOD and only the Word (GOD) that is truth is equal to the Spirit (GOD) of Grace!

The prophet Zechariah prophesied of the truth of Gods grace to come in the New Covenant by the word of the Lord;

"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. " (Zechariah 12:10)  

And Jesus prayed in the garden the night before His crucifixion,

"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." (John 17:17)

When was the Spirit of this Grace, spoken and brought by the Word of Truth, poured?  
Was it not purchased at Calvary and shed upon the church at Pentecost?

Demonstrating that the partakers of the New Covenant are the  "inhabitants of Jerusalem"  who are the recipients of this grace, as well as displaying that Earthly is not equal to Heavenly (nor Old to New), the writer of Hebrews says,

"For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,"   (the Old Covenant – the law) "And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:) But ye are come unto mount Sion,"  (the New Covenant – Grace and Truth!) "and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things" (mercy) "than that of Abel" (vengeance). (Hebrews 12: 18-24)

Of this same Spirit of Grace the writer of Hebrews says,

"Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:29).

Thus warning that to trust in anything but the sacrifice and shed blood of Jesus, to seek to balance God with anything but God, is to count the grace by which we are purchased an unholy thing!

Can the sacrifice of bulls and goats equal the sacrifice of the Son of God?
No!

Is seeking to be justified by the works of the law equal to being justified freely by His grace (Romans 3:24), or is Hagar (the bondwoman) equal to Sarah (the freewoman) (Galatians 4:21-31)
NO!

Is the servant equal to the son?  
NO!  

Are not they who are led by the Spirit the sons of God? (Romans 8:14)  
YES!

And a son abides in the house forever! (John 8:35)

As only GOD Equals GOD, so only does Word balance Spirit, and is Grace balanced only by Truth.  

Let us trust only in the just weight of the living God that is found only in the love of Christ Jesus.

For God is Love. (1John 4:8)          

Gabriel
the psalmistsinger

psalmistsinger,

Amen! Amen! Amen! to post #14

Pilgrim

I am sitting here listening to this argument and wondering where it is taking root and what it is growing into.
There is obviously a misunderstanding of motive here. The law is good if a man uses it lawfully. The law is not made for the righteous. Christ is the end of the commandment.
However, through the Holy Spirit Christ still gives commandments daily to each of us. What we do with that instant word is crucial. If we do not listen to the Spirit in that instance and go our own way we have disobeyed the Spirit of Christ and are subject to discipline. If we are not disciplined then we are bastards and not true sons.
Jesus kept and fulfilled the commandments he gave at Sinai. He would not lead us to go against them. He daily gives ramah words (instant words) that we are to obey. You could say it is the still small voice.
For instance today I began to argue with my wife to the point being tempted to say harsh words. But the Spirit checked me and I obeyed. Does not this fulfill the commandment to love my wife, neighbor etc?

asaph

Gal. 3:1 “O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?  2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?  3  Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?  4  Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if [it be] yet in vain.  5  He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?”

Those who teach and hold that Christian must keep the law of Moses would do well to pay attention to the apostle Paul in the above verses. Paul is so amazed that those who were on the right path to begin with are now far removed from the true gospel and have instead embraced a false gospel of law keeping. How can this be? Paul calls the Galatians who think that they have to keep the law of Moses foolish (verse 1,3). Paul goes on to demonstrate their foolishness by asking a couple of rhetorical question. Any one who teaches that Christians must keep the law of Moses would do well to answer these questions as well. Paul first ask:

“This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?”

This is a rhetorical question and the obvious answer is that anyone who is saved was saved by grace through faith and not by their own attempts at keeping the law of Moses as Eph. 2:8-10 declares. Paul then builds upon this question by asking another rhetorical question:

“Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? “

In other words are you so foolish in acknowledging that you were saved by faith to think that your sanctification  will now be made perfect by your fleshly attempts at keeping the law of Moses? Paul is teaching the Galatians by rhetorical questions that not only are they saved by faith but that their perfection is of faith as well. Our salvation is though faith and our Christian walk is by faith, not by the deeds of the law as false teaches would have you believe.

Gal. 3:11 “But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.”

Law and Grace cannot be mixed.

God bless,
Pilgrim

Is anyone listening? Am I in this conversation? Any response to my previous post? Did it make sense?
I am under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus! This includes His commandments; they are not a burden. You are not a burden to me either but a blessing from God.

asaph

3   Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4   Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5   Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6   And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7   Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8   Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9   Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10   But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11   For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12   Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13   Thou shalt not kill.
14   Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15   Thou shalt not steal.
16   Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17   Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Our focus is not these but Christ. Our ears and our eyes are on Him, the fulfillment.

Let's say I am walking around the block and I see my neighbors' wife out in the yard working the garden. She is scantily dressed and very good looking. Then the Spirit says to me do not covet her (lust). By obeying, am I trying to earn my salvation? Is it wrong for me to observe this instant word. I think not. In fact it would be wrong not to. My focus however is not the ten commandments but the Spirit of Grace (Christ). My deliverence is in Him through His instant word.

Am I making sense? Or am I all wet?

asaph

Hi, John here:
Who 'SPIRITUALLY MOVED' the writers of the Master's Words? The Holy Spirit! With the exception of Isa. 8:20.

This person of the God Head re/created the [saved] ones! That is & was, only the 'starting point'. But there is NO way of being saved without BEING BORN AGAIN! (see 2 Cor. 3:3)

Now & ONLY NOW, have we any power to OBEY CHRIST! (Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9) But What caused this CHANGE? [It is now] that my HEART & MIND LOVE MY MASTER! "IF YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS" He says! It is just THAT SIMPLE! :)

What of all of the ones that will not keep the Holy Spirits Inspiration seen in the Word of God, while CLAIMING TO KNOW & LOVE CHRIST? HE INSPIRED JOHNS WORD'S TO US IN 1 John 2:4! NO TRUTH! LIAR INSPIRATION SAYS! :'(

They either are still found in Matt. 25's sleeping, or they have NEVER been converted in the first place, [or] they are found in 2 Peter 2:19-22's ones of 'promising them liberty'. ??? :'(

---John

PS: You rightly so, list the ten commandments below. There are a good many ways to take Christ's NAME IN VAIN besides swaring! See Mark 7:7!
***********

Hi asaph,

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. I think you are on the right tract. We obey righteousness because we are under the law of Christ, not as incorrectly claimed by some that we are under the law of Moses. The law of Christ is far superior to the law of Moses just as Christ is far superior to Moses. Some say that if you teach that the Ten Commandments are done away with as 2 Cor. 3:11 says then you are teaching that a save person can sin at will. Even the apostle Paul had to defend himself from this accusation as well. It was wicked men who subverted the souls of those who followed them that made such baseless accusations.

Rom. 6:1 “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?  2  God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?”

Because Paul taught that one is saved by grace through faith rather than law keeping his enemies accused him of teaching that a Christian had a free license to sin. Paul gave the death blow to that argument in verse 1 of Romans 6. He went on to say:

Rom. 6:15 “What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.  16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?  17  But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.  18  Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.”

Can God’s Word get any clearer that we are not under law but under grace (verse 15)? And can God’s Word get any clearer that because were are under grace and not the law that this is not a license for free sinning? True Christians do not practice sin because they follow the law of Christ, not because they follow the law of Moses.


Quote from asaph “I am under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus! This includes His commandments; they are not a burden. You are not a burden to me either but a blessing from God.”

You are correct that the commands are not a burden Matthew 11 makes this abundantly clear:

Matt. 11:28 “Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.  29  Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.  30  For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.”

Yet the opposite is true for the law of Moses as Acts 15 declares so clearly:

Acts 15:5 “But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses.”

Acts 15:10 “Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?”

Peter says that the law of Moses was an unbearable burden that neither they or their fathers were able to bear. If the apostles themselves could not bear the law of Moses what chance do we have? Peter said that those who taught that Christian have to keep the law of Moses were tempting God, a very serious sin. Those who teach that Christians have to keep the law of Moses are siding with the Pharisees of verse 6 and those who temp God (verse 10) and those who subvert souls (verse 24):

Acts 15:23 “And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:  24  Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:”

Notice that verse 24 for says it was the troublemakers who taught that Christians must keep the law of Moses and that they themselves never gave such a commandment.

God bless,
Pilgrim

Okay, well, then, what would everybody think about the following:

1)  Jesus Christ is our Saviour, but the Old Testament, or the law, is still an insight into the mind of God.  True, it doesn't save--Jesus saves.  Still, the law is to be aware of, and understood.  Yesterday I read the verse in Deuteronomy, that you shall include a parapet around your roof, to keep someone from falling off.  Another interesting verse, that men and women shall not switch clothes.  Wouldn't "studying to show thyself approved..." include those old, too?  Isn't that an insight into the mind of God?

2) Secondly, what do you think about the chief justice, Moore, there in Alabama--West Point graduate, Viet Nam vet, paying for himself and planting in the state Supreme Court there, a monument of the Ten Commandments? (I think the case now is going to the federal Supreme Court?).

2 Cor. 3:6 “Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.  7  But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away:  8  How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?  9  For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.  10  For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.  11  For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious.  12  Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:  13  And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:  14  But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.  15  But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.  16  Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.  17  Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.  18  But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.”

2 Corinthians 3 is talking specifically about the Ten Commandments (verses 7) in comparison to the New Covenant. Paul says in verse 3 that they are ministers of the New Covenant (new testament) which is not of the letter (Ten Commandments), but of the Spirit.  The Ten Commandments are not part of the gospel, the gospel and the Ten Commandments are opposed to each other so that they cannot be mixed. The Ten Commandments brought forth death and condemnation while the gospel of the New Covenant brought fort life and a clear conscience before God.

Notice verse 7 refers to the Ten Commandments as a ministry of death, not one of life, and verse nine says the Ten Commandments were a ministry of condemnation, not one that would clear a guilty conscience. I am amazed that some people insist upon putting themselves and others under a ministry of death and condemnation. Why would anyone who is sane want to be under a covenant that could only condemn and kill them in the first place? Are they under a false delusion that a ministry of death and condemnation is able to bring them life and a clear conscience before God? No wonder the apostles, elders and brethren of Jerusalem said it was the subverters of souls that taught that Christians are to keep the law of Moses Acts 15:24).

Verse 11 clearly teaches that the Ten Commandments are done away with and that the New Covenant is what remains. The so-called law keepers cannot explain verse 11. Verse 11 says that the Ten Commandments are done away with and the so-called law keepers say it is not. Who’s lying, the so-called law keepers, or God? I will give a little hint it’s not God. Verse 13 declares that the Ten Commandments are abolished, how can a Christian be subject to something that is abolished and no longer in force? The reason some people insist that the Ten Commandments are in force today is explained in this chapter as well. It’s because they are blind by a vail upon their heart in their understanding of the Old Testament (verse 15). In other words they don’t even understand the purpose of the Old Covenant and like the unbelieving Jews they think that their righteousness is by the deeds of the law (Rom.9:30-33). This vail will only be removed when they repent by turning their hearts away from the ministry of death and condemnation to the cross of Jesus Christ where they will find life and a clear conscience before God.

Like the self righteous Pharisees of old, today’s subverters of souls think that they are serving God when they teach their false gospel of works based salvation. Like the Pharisees of old, they lead souls to hell rather than heaven.

Matt. 23:13 “But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.  14  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.  15  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.”

Strong words from our beloved Lord Himself. Those who teach that Christians must keep the law of Moses are enemies of the cross and wether they realize it or not they help promote Satan’s deadliest work of blinding mens eyes to the light of the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ.

2 Cor. 4:3 “But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:  4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”

God bless,
Pilgrim

Quote from John "John here: All of the above it seems, is agreed by me? But who on the forum here are you talking about in the below words?"

To those who teach that Christians must keep the law of Moses. Prehaps if you read the topic from the start you would not be confused.

God bless,
Pilgrim

I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief...

Good exposition Pilgrim   :D

Grace still loves those that oppose Him. It is all about relationship; with our Creator and with others. Doctrine can bring misunderstanding from those not familiar, but love covers over a multitude of sins.

 Ephesians 4
1   I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2   With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3   Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

1 Cor.8
1   ...Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
2   And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
3   But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

asaph

Right On  ;D

My dear brother Michael..

I have read your posts for months and, while I haven't necessarily always agreed, I have been impressed with your zeal. I too have a "Full Gospel" background, and am appreciative of the emphasis for respect for the "whole word" of God.

What we must understand is that while all of the Bible is from God, not all of it applies conditionally to our time, and it is the New Covenant that fulfilled the "Old" and  is the "world without end" Ephesians 3:21.

Old and New Covenants are indeed two different things applying to two different era's ( before Calvary and after Calvary) in history.
Old is called "Old" for a reason, and was given with the knowledge that there would be a "New".

Moses said, "The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;" Deuteronomy 18:15.  
 
What separates Moses from the other Old testament prophets like Isaiah, Daniel, or Jeremiah?

A Covenant.

Moses was a "covenant bringer", and for a Prophet to be like "unto him" that prophet would have to have a Covenant!

As Jeremiah said, again establishing that "Old Covenant" was not the final word, "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" Jeremiah 31:31-34.  

Now the writer Hebrews says, "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Hebrews 8:13.      
The Old Covenant was added because of transgressions and  given to show man his need for a Savior.

When the law said "don't covet", and I know that I have coveted, then I am aware of my need to be saved.
Once I am born again however, with the Character of God wirtten on my heart, I no longer need an external law that is contrary to me to be under bondage to so that I will do the right thing. Now the Spirit that is in me leads me to do those things that I ought naturally, because this Character is not separate from me, but is in my heart.

No one is saying that anyone who calls themselves Christian should commit sin. Rather he who is born of God, following the Nature, the Spirit,  that is in Him will walk righteously without an outside law because that is who he is.

Think for a moment...as child of God do you want to steal? Kill? Commit adultery?
Of course not..and that is the point!

The Character that was written on stone, and was contrary to natural man has now, by the Spirit,  been written on the hearts of those that belong to Christ! And those that are led by the Spirit (not the law) are the sons of God!

God's holiness is revealed in both Covenant's because He is the same Person. That Character is fulfilled and established in the tablets of our hearts. That is what we live by - the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

I appreciate that you are posting here, and enjoy speaking of these things. Keep in mind...

It is one thing to say that Pilgrim, myself, or others are going to hell, but quite a different thing to defend a position biblically. If we reach a point of disagreement then so be it..
God knows those who are His, and no doubt they don't all think the same about every issue. But we all agree that He is Lord, and if the Son of God didn't come into the world to condemn it, then certainly we don't want to do that to each other.

In His Grace...








 

Good Word!

asaph

"Do we then make void the law through faith? Certaintly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.  Romans 3:31

" What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary. I would not have know sin except through the law. For I would not have known convetousness unless the law had said,"you shall not covet"  Romans 7:6

"Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good." Romans 7:12

"For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man." Romans 7:22

"I thank God-through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself SERVE THE LAW OF GOD, BUT WITH THE FLESH THE LAW OF SIN." (added emph) Romans 7:25

Now by this we we know that we know Him (Jesus) IF we keep his commandments (plural....more than one!) He who says "I know Him and does not keep His commandments IS A LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN him." (added emph) I John 2:3-4

Who is subverting who?

Psalm 119,
Welcome to the discussion.

Faith does not void the law, but rather the rightousness that is in the law is established in the believer by faith. Righteousness is only imputed by God.

"Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. "
Galatians  3:21

Is the law sin? No. It is the covenant that God Himself established with Israel for the purpose of making man aware of his need for a Savior.

The law is not sin but we would not have known sin except for the law.

The law is not sin, yet sin, the sting of death, get's it's strength from the law.

"The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law."
1 Corithians 15:56.

We have all known the Romans 7 experience where we know and agree  - even delight -  with the Law about what is good, yet lack the inner Nature to live up to it.

Thank God for Romans 8, and deliverance from the body of death, where there is now (as opposed to those in Romans 7) no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh (seeking to live by their own efforts after the Law) but after the Spirit!

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8: 2-4.

Being led by His Spirit we can keep His commandments because they are written on our hearts! Not a Law carved on stone separate and contrary to our nature, but Naturally as children born of their Father's inherited Character!

Following an inherited Nature for the believer is by no means grievous as is keeping a law that is contrary to the nature of unregenerate man.

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith" 1John 5:3-4.

If anyone is walking, from their own individual will, their heart, in sin, not merely being tempted, but desiring to sin, that person needs to be saved. If a sow desires mud then it is only following it's nature. It can do nothing else no matter how many external commands it recieves to get clean and stay out of the dirt.
But that is not the condition of the believer.

The believer has the Nature of Christ within, and lives not by outer commandments but by the inner law of Christ that is manifested in ONE word.

"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."  Galatians 5:14.

So the real issue becomes .....is Jesus sufficient?

I believe He is.

In His Grace...

Besides as just historical or informational awareness, the OT should be read, understood and even studied becuase it is an insight into the Mind of God.

Please Michael, I pray that you do. Get out of bondage to your religious system that your in, today and get with the folks who will help you to "understand AND enjoy" your Bible.

[quote author=psalmistsinger

(removed for the below real issue?)

******
Hi, John here:
I do not think that the MASTER BEING SUFFICIENT is the bottom line, it it? Most of the 'wide gate' ones most likely believe this fact. (even the devils)

So perhaps you along with me, think that the bottom line, after being convicted of your statement, is the one verse of Matt. 23:3?

"ALL THEREFORE, [WHATSOEVER] THEY BID YOU OBSERVE, [THAT OBSERVE AND DO]; (virgin doctrines) BUT [DO NOT YE AFTER THEIR WORKS, FOR THEY SAY, AND DO NOT]."

I add this verse, because their is another Virgin Fold going down the [exact] same path as Israel of old  :'(. Check Eze. 9 & Rev. 3:16-17 for their ending. And the quote you give is not the real issue, posted alone, is it!

And your postings ending is below: ---John
*****

So the real issue becomes .....is Jesus sufficient?

I believe He is.

In His Grace...

No, Brother John.

Respectfully, I will have to stand behind my original statement considering the context of the conversation.

The question has been how is righteousness obtained, or maintained? The final answer in this context is Jesus.

 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Romans 10: 9-13.

Devils, and the unregenerate, may believe that God is (which is of course the prerequisite for coming to Him) but that is not the same thing as knowing God.

The Christian, one who is born again, has believed unto righteousness by placing His confidence in Christ and is warned about turning back to trying to obtain righteousness by the Law after having done so.

"But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?" Galatians 4: 9.    

In the Matthew 23 passage that you quote Jesus is admonishing His followers, who were at that time still under the Law as the cross had not yet taken place, to avoid the hypocrisy of the Pharisees...Advice for today as well no doubt, but not what this conversation has been about, nor what I was addressing.

Neither has the issue been about prophesies concerning Israel and Judah, or about being lukewarm. Although being lukewarm is what I believe can be produced by mixing law and grace.
It is neither completely one or the other, but an unbiblical hybrid.

When the subject is about the Old and New covenants and the validity of both as pertaining to our walk with God this side of Calvary, I believe the underlying question to be how is righteousness produced?

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
2Corinthians 5:21.  

There is no righteousness I can add to the righteousness of God.

I am complete in Him.

"For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. "  Romans 10:11

That is, indeed, the real issue.

He is sufficient.

I will trust in that.

Take care.

In His Grace...

Hi, John here:


*******
(removed for context)

You say: "Devils, and the unregenerate, may believe that God is (which is of course the prerequisite for coming to Him) but that is not the same thing as knowing God."

***
John here:
You still miss the bottom line question: Who in professed protestantism teach differantly? Yet you say below that your have nothing to do work wise & then you say that 'which is OF COURSE THE *PREREQUISITE FOR COMING TO HIM'  ???
***

The Christian, one who is born again, has believed unto righteousness by placing His confidence in Christ and is warned about turning back to trying to obtain righteousness by the Law after having done so.

"But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?" Galatians 4: 9.    

***
John here:
Born again? What law are you suggesting is now VOIDED out? (Gal. 3:19 or Rom. 3:31?) For you see, if you pick the wrong law to do away with, you are PROVING that you are NOT BORN AGAIN.

Simply put,
"IF YE LOVE ME *KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS" Or 2 Cor. 3:3 [FIRST HEART TRANSPLANT!] Or Acts 5:32. The Holy Ghost is GIVEN ONLY TO THEM WHO OBEY HIM! And who forum is the Words of INSPIRATION FROM in the O.T.? (see 2 Peter 1:20-21 & 2 Tim. 3:16)
******

In the Matthew 23 passage that you quote Jesus is admonishing His followers, who were at that time still under the Law as the cross had not yet taken place, to avoid the hypocrisy of the Pharisees...Advice for today as well no doubt, but not what this conversation has been about, nor what I was addressing.

****
John here:
Well please excuse me. That is what I was telling all. Your Gospel is not the Gospel. It is NOT ABOUT THAT CONSERVATION! It is a PROMISES ONLY FALSE GOSPEL. The EVERLASTING GOSPEL of Rev. 14:6 & the ETERNAL COVENANT of Heb. 13:20 IS THE ONE & *ONLY COMPLETE  GOSPEL!

So: Your 'real issue' is NOT EVERLASTING GOSPEL + Everlasting COVENANT! (Bottom Line, *CHARACTER OF CHRIST!) For it is IMPOSSIBLE TO SEPERATE CHRIST FROM HIS 'EPISTLE' (LETTER TO US) Again see 2 Cor. 3:3. And it even sounds like that you have this 'EPISTLE' in mind to void out? An mindless Christ Gospel, 'i' think not! :'( :'(.

The MASTER'S PERFECTION is *not the issue! There IS NO DOUBT ABOUT THIS! THE CROSS PROVED THAT!

Teach as ones desires, & we will very soon seen why there is a BROAD WAY OF LOST PROFESSED 'c'HRISTIANS, huh? See Matt. 7's [*conditions for those who DO NOT VOID OUT THE LAW, but who 'ESTABLISH' the law of Rom. 3:31!]  And then check 1 Peter 4:17 for what happens to the rest.

And Christ's COMMAND in Matt. 28:20? O'well just forget it, those too are His Words & teaching, and is not, "THE REAL ISSUE", huh? ???  :'(

End of John's remarks

PS: It is no wonder the professed Christian (person) world is in the mess that it is, with this NO LAW TEACHING! Take a peek at the Iraque God professing LAWLESS ones.
***

That is, indeed, the real issue.

He is sufficient.

I will trust in that.

Take care.

In His Grace...

Bro. John,

Apparently I have caused you offence, and I assure you that no offence was intended.

I do not consider the faith to believe that God is a work, or calling on the Lord in faith a work as it were, because the very faith by which I believe is a gift.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" Ephesians 2:8

I don't know if you have read this entire thread or not so if I repeat a little forgive me.

 I am not saying, nor has it been said, that one should not keep His commandments, but rather what does that mean?

Does keeping His commandments mean following the 10 commandments and the Law of the Old Covenant, or is it following the Nature, the Spirit, that contains that same righteous Character because it written in the heart of the believer? Not on stone seperate, apart and unattainable, but now, because of what Jesus has done, is it who we are in Him?

 I believe it is the latter.

What Law am I suggesting is voided?

What Paul said. The Old Covenant. Not that the Old covenant was not God's word, but not His final Word. The Old Covenant was a shadow, the New Covenant (Jesus) is the Light.

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Colossians 2: 14 -17.

Now some would say that it is only the ceremonial laws that Paul is dealing with, but biblically this a distiction that Paul doesn't make.

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?" 2 Corinthians 3: 7-8.

What was written on stone was the 10, and Paul says that it's glory was done away.

Further indication that the 10 were not considered separate from the rest of the Old Covenant is found in Hebrews.

"Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant"
Hebrews 9:1-4.

So we understand that not only were the 10 commandments not only part of the Old Covenant, but indeed were the very heart of it. As well they should have been the very words and character of God written on stone fore-shadowing that same righteousness being written on the stony heart of man to make something new as Ezekiel foretold.

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."
Ezekiel 36:26.

The righteousness of the law, the 10, is established in the hearts of believers who are living it because it is their nature, who they are, and not an external law.

The Gospel of Jesus is not mine but His, and I just believe it, which in turn (because of the Life that He has imparted to me) makes me want to live accordingly.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." John 3:16-17.

My "real issue" in this conversation has been what I said it was - the sufficiency of Christ for righteousness.

I believe the "Everlasting Gospel" and the "Everlasting Covenant" to be one and the same thing, and found in the Person of Christ Jesus.
 
"Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."
Matthew 20:28

And how do we observe these things? I think all of this can be summed up by the words of Jesus in another place.

"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." John 6:29

The Master's perfection is not the issue, but ours, as it is found only in Him, is. Some don't believe that His grace is sufficient. I disagree.

My purpose has been to declare the sufficiency of Christ, and that Christ alone is all that is necessary, is the only thing that makes anyone righteous. Not the law, not another commandment, just Jesus.

"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? " Galatians 3: 2-3.

"Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us." Romans 8:34

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 8: 38-39.

To add anything to Jesus for salvation (or "maintaining" salvation) is to take away from His sufficiency, to say that His cross was not enough for forgiveness, and that His life is not enough for righteousness.

I trust Him. That trust causes me to walk in Love...which fulfills the law.

I trust Him alone.

In His Grace...

 




 

John here:
First off, no offence is taken from this end. I do not know any one on these forums to my knowledge. The only thing that I am posting too is a message with the subject Re: Subverters of Souls. Did I spin my wheels?? (Nothing personal in my remarks for individuals. I am NO MIND OR HEART READER, ok?)

With that being said, let me say that 'i' do hate OPEN UNREPENTANT FLAGRANT SIN. This i take offence with.
And that is what most would question, perhaps? It is not Wheat & Tares growing together that is for sure.
Sorry! There are Wheat, there are both Tares, both growing together with minds that cannot be read, ok? Then there ARE OPEN REPEAT FLAGRANT SINNERS. This is NOT GODS WILL! (see Joshua 7)

Now for the Subverters of Souls 'thinking'? False doctrine is included! Being yoked to such false doctrine is being an OPEN PARTAKER [when known!] It can not be known unless one is taught & ['convicted'] by the Holy Spirit! And on & on we go!
Matt. 28:20.

How do [we] differ in thinking? (most likely much-law of spiritual average) But on your [one] missives explanation, maybe, just some? Old & New Covenants perhaps, for starters? I do not believe that the Rent Vail Voided out the [COMBINED] EVERLASTING COVENANT. But the way was made into the second faze of it. The Everlasting heavenly Most Holy place, where the ARK is still there! (Rev. 11:19)

Never will i be convinced that mankind, at any time (or of created ones) in time were created to ONLY BELIEVE. What a DEAD WORSHIP THAT WOULD BE. (Feverant Love is called into question. Rev. 3:16-17) God created us with a brain, mental & physical powers. AND YES, They ARE STILL HIS, and they are still HIS regardless of being saved or otherwise! Regardless if one recognizes it & gives the credits to the creator or not.

Just another note: It is interesting of the Hot Desirse 's'atan gets & wants, while the LOVING PROFFESED CHRISTIANS constantly CRY FOUL TO OTHERS WITH THE TRUE LOVING WORKS FOR CHRIST!
IT IS A TOTAL COMPLETE CREATED PACKAGE OF FAITH & WORKS EITHER WAY! (or you are D-E-A-D-. see Eze. 37)

Back again: :).
And yes, Adam made shipwreck! (But it was NOT THE SIN UNTO DEATH)
Then came the [*PLAN] OF THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL INTO FUNCTION. (FAITH-WORKS) GRACE SAVED THE ONE WHO SURRENDERED HIS TOTAL WILL. True Faith=True Works OF LOVE & DEVELOPES A CHARACTER THAT GOD DID NOT 'GIVE'  HIS CREATED ONES. This they had to DEVELOPE by the Everlasting Gospel Provisions supplied by Christ! (His Grace)There is NO WAY TO SEPERATE THE TWO. It Is a two party AGREEMENT, PLEDGE, CONTRACT. (baptismal vow!)

Case in point: Gen. 4:7.
Cain was faithful up until maturity. (no condemnation in Rom. 8:1) He had obeyed in FAITH by offering the lamb offering that pointed to the Master. Then he made his fatal MATURE & FACE TO 'WORD' mistake. But before this, he was forwarned! The DECISION was his to make!
Faith alone would not have done it, it required a combination of TRUE BELIEF or  FAITH THAT WORKS, the Word says.. 'IF THOU DOEST WELL, WILL THOU NOT BE ACCEPTED?'. And of course he would have been accepted. (if one believes the passage)

Never in the creation by Christ was man saved in any other way! Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 Notice God's question in the passage! "Is there [anything] new under the sun?" (only if we are told so!)
---John

Ok...let me see if I can follow you here..

Again, let me say that I don't believe that anyone who has posted here is approving of any kind of sinful actions.

I also believe that good works will follow those that believe.

I think perhaps where we are is the age old question of the chicken and the egg. Which comes first, or produces the other?

I don't believe that works are necessary for salvation, although I believe that salvation by virtue of what it is, and Who it's from, will produce fruit.

 I believe the Bible teaches that as we walk in Love by faith this fruit is produced naturally. Not to gain or keep salvation, but because of salvation.

As for your reasoning on the covenants being one combined covenant, I'm not sure how you reach that conclusion in light of Hebrews.

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. " Hebrews 8:7

"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Hebrew 8:13.

It seems apparent to me that they are two different things, with the first being a shadow of the New.
Even the ark and the furnishings of the temple, according to the writer of Hebrews, were a symbol, or pattern, of the true.

Keep in mind that while Revelation is without question from God, not all of it (or not most of it) can be taken literally and surely points to Spiritual truth. Certainly there is not a literal woman clothed with the literal sun with the literal moon beneath her feet.

I'm not sure where you are going with your example of Cain. Perhaps you were thinking of someone else ( and believe me - that is not meant disrespectfully..there's a lot of names to remember here!), for Cain offered nothing by faith.

"And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD." Genesis 4:2-3

Cain, as a tiller of the ground, offered what had been produced by his own sweat, or works.

Abel, by faith, offered a lamb that only God could produce.

I believe this to be a perfect picture of what God accepts.

Of course I don't believe Eccl. in it's context to be speaking of the New Covenant , but surely Paul is.

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
2Corinthians 5:17

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature." Galatians 6:15.

Never until Christ could anyone be truly born of the Spirit.
And that is only by His Grace through faith.

In His Grace...

   



 

Hi, John here: I will comment below.
***

Oklahoma Howdy to Pilgrim & Psalmistsinger,

Brothers, I received blessings from your posts.

Thank you!

In Christ.

Hi, John here:
Just to get back on the Subverters of Souls topic, how do you read Gen. 6:3? And the ACTIVE AGENT, (GOD-v.1) THE HOLY SPIRIT in Gen. 1:1-3

"And the Spirit of God MOVED UPON THE FACE OF THE WATERS" And Gen. 6:3 said that.. "MY SPIRIT SHALL NOT ALWAYS [STRIVE WITH MAN].."

The 'shall not always strive with man' seems to be accelerating! Huh? The thought is, That the Holy Ghost has *always BEEN on the scene, not just in the new Testament.

By the way, all of the congregation of the people said: "Ye have killed the people of the Lord" Do you remember Korah of Numbers 16?
The Word of God has NEVER been a popularity contest!

---John

******

A Kentucky "HI-DEE" to Blackeyed Peas!

Good to hear from you again brother. Glad your enjoying the conversation! I always enjoy your posts as well, and have been reading some of them on other threads!

Bro. John,

The standard of judgement is Christ. Those who are born of Him have no desire to sin for the seed of God is them.

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. " John 3:9

If sin is transgression of the Law (and John says that it is), and Jesus has abolished the Law, then the the believer cannot transgress something that he is not a part of; i.e. the Old Covenant. We are forgiven and given grace and strength to walk in righteousness, not because of an external, but an internal Law. The Law of Life in Christ Jesus.

As this is a Christian board my statement pertained to the motives of brothers and sisters as far as attitudes towards sin are concerned. Being born of the same Father I know what we are made of. It did not pertain to those that are not born of Him.

Matthew 25 is about 2 different groups of people as delianted, I believe, in verse 46 - those who are righteous and those who are not; thus leading us again to the question of how one is made righteous.  As I 've said, and I believe the scriptures prove, that is by Christ alone.

Revelation 3 is not written to individual believers, but to the churches.

 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." Revelation 3:13.

Hebrews 6:6 is showing the futility of going back under the law of Moses after having trusted Christ. But the writer says:

"But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak." Hebrews 6:8.

The point is (and he makes it again in Hebrews 10) that after that sacrifice of Jesus there is no other sacrifice that is acceptable. He is telling the Hebrews not to go back to the bondage of the law from which they have been delivered.

I have addressed the issue in 1John 2:4 in previous posts. How do we keep His commandments? Because they are wirtten on our hearts. That is what we live by. Not by what's written in stone.

"And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?  To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:19-20.

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Romans 3:31.

"Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law." Galatians 3:21

The New Covenant, which abolished the Old, is not against the righteousness the law, rather the Law was contrary to man.

But -

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" Colossians 2:14.

The commandment was good and Holy, but gave no one power to abide by that written on stone.

The Spirit has given us new birth by which He give us His power by virtue of Who He is to live the New Life in Christ Jesus.

Those in Matthew 7 that Jesus tell to depart are not His children, but those that He never knew.

I'm not sure how Korah fits here. No one is clean because I or anyone else says so, but only because God says so.

"Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you." John 15:3.

In John 12 those that are among the chief rulers being spoken of did indeed apparently believe that He was the Christ, but as the crucifixion and resurrection had not yet occured, nor had Pentecost come, they could not have had the opportunity to believe unto salvation, hence they were never born again.

"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" John 7:38-39.

"And the Lord said,  Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." Luke 22:31-32.

The character that grows in a believer is developed from the "raw material" (the New birth) that God has freely given.

"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;  And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity." 2 Peter 1:3-7

He has given us all things that pertain to life. Growing in that is not a work of salvation but, again, because of salvation.

As for good works from those that aren't Christians and what is the motivation, or cause:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another" Romans 2: 14-15.

There is a moral charater that can exist even in unregenerate man. Man is, after all, created in the image of God, and some  -without the "Royal 10" which was given to the nation of Israel - are a law unto themselves.  But this further goes to the point that salvation is the by God's grace and not of works. As Paul said earlier in the same book -

" For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith" Romans 1:16-17.

My comment on the book Revelation being spiritual was in response to your example of the ark. It appeared to be used in a literal sense.

I see no biblical evidence that Cain up to the point of Abel's murder had been a faithful servant, but rather that sin was in his heart.

"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door." Genesis 4:7

How could Cain have done well? The contrast is plain with Abel, who offered his sacrifice by faith, and not as Cain who offered of that for which he had worked.

Those in Hebrews 11 were saved by faith. Having died physically they were nevertheless alive spiritually by faith in the promise of God that was found in Christ. Remember that He is the God of the Living.

"And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?  He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err." Mark 12:26-27.

The Holy Spirit came upon Saul and others in the Old testament at different times, but never to stay to make the man the temple of God.  Never to indwell and regenerate by Spiritual birth.  That was not to happen until Jesus.

The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Jesus, the Spirit that raised Jesus  (who is God Himself manifested the flesh) from the dead, is God.

Now, Brother John,
I am but a plain spoken man and sadly I'm not too good at reading between the lines. I am in need of a few things being spelled out for the sake of better understanding.

The way this has been going is that you will pick something out of what I've said and question it (which is fine), and in my response - which I try to make as thorough as I can - you will pick something else out and question it (which really is fine), but I would appreciate it if you could respond a bit too, and fully explain a few things that are in my next post biblically.

Sorry, but this post is a bit long so please read the continuation on the next post.

Continued from previous post:

Bro. John,

1. How is trusting Jesus for life a "dead", or another, gospel when this is clearly what Jesus (who came that we might have Life, and Life more abundantly) taught?

To quote just a few:

John 3:15  "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."  

John 3:17  "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

John 10:9  "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture."

2. Scripturally, how do you consider the two covenants to instead be one combined covenant?

3. If you believe that the Old Covenant was not abolished how do you view 2 Corinthians chapter 3, and Hebrews chapter 8 ?

My personal purpose on this board, besides friendly fellowship with other brethren in the body of Christ, is to gain understanding in issues like this from those who aren't like minded as to how they understand the bible.

I appreciate your willingess to converse and look forward to your response.

I will be away from home over the next few days but will check back as opportunity allows.

In His grace...

Bro. John,

The only condition in John 3:15 is belief.

They should not perish if they believe, which I've established in other posts is by faith, which itself should not be construed as a work as it too is the gift of God.


In John 3:17 that "the world through Him might be saved " is again in reference to belief...by faith..the gift of God.

My second question is reference to your previous statement:

John the Baptist (meaning of course you the poster here) said, "I do not believe that the Rent Vail Voided out the [COMBINED] EVERLASTING COVENANT. But the way was made into the second faze of it. The Everlasting heavenly Most Holy place, where the ARK is still there! (Rev. 11:19)"

Scripturally, why do you not see two covenants, and how do you combine them?

The specific verses that I am referring to in 2 Corinthians 3 and Hebrews 8 are the ones that I have quoted in previous posts. I'm not sure if you are reading all of the posts, but I think there are some things to address in them.

The specific verses are:

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?" 2 Corinthians 3: 7-8.

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. " Hebrews 8:7

"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Hebrew 8:13.

I am glad to address the verses and issues you bring up biblically, as I have been doing, but how about you keep the ball for a little bit?

Your straight-forward response to these verses, and my other posts, is appreciated.

If I don't make it back beforehand, have a good holiday week-end.

In His Grace....

DITTO  ;D

Bro. John,

I said that I did not believe that the Eccl. passage was in reference to the New Covenant for as God said in Jeremiah,

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah" Jeremiah 31:31.

Revelation 3 is not to individual believers, but to churches, and I have addressed this in other posts, along with many of the other things you have mentioned.

Actually I think I may be the one spinning my wheels here  :) , but  please read my previous posts and respond to those answers biblically if you wish.

About, oh, 4 or 5 posts back from this one I asked some questions that I would still appreciate if you would answer plainly and scripturally.

For convenience sake I will repeat them here - but please read my other posts for the answers to much of what you've said.

The questions that I asked you to respond to a ways back are:

1. How is trusting Jesus for life a "dead", or another, gospel when this is clearly what Jesus (who came that we might have Life, and Life more abundantly) taught?

2. Scripturally, how do you consider the two covenants to instead be one combined covenant?

3. If you believe that the Old Covenant was not abolished how do you view 2 Corinthians chapter 3, and Hebrews chapter 8 ?

The specific verses are:

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?" 2 Corinthians 3: 7-8.

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. " Hebrews 8:7

"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Hebrew 8:13.

A plain, straight-forward , biblical answer to each is appreciated.

Thanks brother,

In His Grace....

Bro. John,

Nah..not running off, but not at home this weekend so my posting may be a bit sporadic this weekend (if at all).

I've read through each of your posts, and I guess I'm missing it...well..I think I see how you may be answering the first one (even though I disagree I understand what you're saying) , but I don't see the answer to the last two..so let me just pose those last two again...

2. Scripturally, how do you consider the two covenants to instead be one combined covenant?

3. If you believe that the Old Covenant was not abolished how do you view 2 Corinthians chapter 3, and Hebrews chapter 8 ?

The specific verses are:

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?" 2 Corinthians 3: 7-8.

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. " Hebrews 8:7

"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Hebrew 8:13.

Your direct answer to both is appreciated.

Thanks,

In His Grace..

Hi, John here:
I just spent an hour or two in a post to you. It would not go through. I lost it? Providence ??? Anyway, my time is too valuable to wast it! We will see what happen's to this one, huh?

*****

I'm back..and patiently waiting.

"But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing." James 1:4

Length of the answer is unimportant as long as the answer is direct. Time is only wasted when the answers are otherwise.

No need to go through a long "circling of the wagons". "The questions are direct, it 's fine with me if the answers are the same.

The questions, again, are:

2. Scripturally, how do you consider the two covenants to instead be one combined covenant?

3. If you believe that the Old Covenant was not abolished how do you view 2 Corinthians chapter 3, and Hebrews chapter 8 ?

The specific verses are:

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?" 2 Corinthians 3: 7-8.

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. " Hebrews 8:7

"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Hebrew 8:13.

Thanks,

In His Grace...

Hi, John here:
You miss my point again perhaps? Like i have said, i have a way of spinning my wheels. Like an old pastor friend use to say to me, you remind me of Paul. (the negatives, 'me' suspects) Anyway that is the way that it is.

If you want to send an email over to my 'public' library site with the questions? I will do my best to tell it as I see it.

I have a site for just that reason. (library) And if I want to send one subject off somewhere? it is there to do so. My material's were also destroyed off of my computor some time back, & my records from it were lost. So I store some of them elsewhere also. I don't go there much. There just might even be some Everlasting Covenant material there? (Or at least should be)

Anyhow, I do have viris control, yet I still get strange email every once in a while, that gets put in my deleat box, by me. I do not click on them anymore, just send them to the deleat box. Even there, one of these still stays, every time I try to deleate it, it warns me that I have done an 'illegal act' & will be shut down. So i just leave it alone & let others build up under it! (but there is no law, huh? ??? Not even for the un/converted.)

Anyway, let me know, if you so desire? You can send me an email at:

pastornb@cherco.net

or you can post up on the library site from your home & send it to:

pastornb@yahoogroups.com  

And the 'library' can be looked at, (into) at this below site:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pastornb/messages

Perhaps there is an email address on this site that we could send an email from home to? That way we WASTE NONE OF THE LORD'S TIME, & can save our [PRAYERFUL WORK].
Again my friend, 'i' am under the law of being responsible to my Master! See Rev. 18:4 & that verse too is the direct full-blown view of the Masters work from Isa. 42:21!
---John
******

It must have broken Paul’s heart to have to say these things to the Galatians (verses 11,20). They were led astray by the subverters of souls who taught that one must keep the law in order to be saved. The Galatians embraced this false gospel to the point that Paul feared his labor for them was all in vain, he even doubted that the were really saved. You cannot mix law and grace as Paul so forcefully demonstrates in his analogy using Hagar and Sarah. The extortion Paul gives is crystal clear, cast out the Mosaic law which is represented in his analogy by the bound woman. Yet many of today’s subverters of souls do just the opposite and not only cling to the law but insist that others do the same. It is no wonder why Paul had such harsh words for those who subverted the souls of others. Paul’s mission was set people free from the bondage of sin and the law and the subverters mission was to keep people in bondage to the law and sin.  

Gal 4:11 “I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.”

Gal 4:20 “I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.”

Gal 4:21 “Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22  For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23  But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24  Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25  For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27  For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28  Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29  But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30  Nevertheless what saith the scripture?

Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31  So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
 
Pilgrim

Oklahoma Howdy to Pilgrim,

Amen Brother!

It's nice to see you back on the forum. We missed you.

The confusion of Law is what Christ fulfilled. Again, the confusion of Grace is what Christ fulfilled. The really GOOD NEWS is the Gospel of the Grace of God, a mystery not known to men of other ages. Bring us some more GOOD NEWS Brother!

In Christ,
Tom