ChristiansUnite Forums

I was raised Baptist and taught once saved always saved.  This is also the teaching in the Alliance and Evangelical Free churches that I have attended.  If this teaching is true, they why does Hebrews 6:4-6 say what it does?

Hebrews 6:4-6 (New International Version)

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

No once saved always saved isn't true.  One who continues in his sin without repentance isn't, saved.  This teaching is a dangerous distortion, of Christianity.

First and foremost one must take a look at the context of the verse or verses that we are looking at.

You must also look at the verse in light of other verses in the Bible.  We study it by taking the more complex verses and using the more simple verse to help illuminate sections of confusion.  And when Jesus himself uses words like eternal, never, forever, as just a few to explain salvation then we also know it is once save always saved.  Add that to the verses that Paul speaks of and many others that describe a once saved always saved scenario and the verses in question cannot contradict them.

Who was the verse written too?  Hebrews/Jews

Now since we know that this verse cannot contradict the simpler and more strait forward verses in the Bible and we also know who this was written too, we have to take a look at how it would apply to whom it was written too.

Now to this day the Jews are awaiting their Messiah...their savior.  They do not believe that Jesus Christ was the Messiah sent by God.  Now no one can deny that the Jews were once the enlightened people of God.  They were the ones who received the heavenly blessings of God.  They had shared in the Holy Spirit and tasted the goodness of the "word of God".  Now note that it does say "word of God" this helps us know exactly who it is that these verses are written too.  Because who had the "word of God" at this time?  The Jews did.  The had the OT.

"if they fall away".  This is the phrase that gets the lost salvation people their bullets.  But again look at in the context of the verses.  We are talking about a people who did have the favor of God.  What would it mean for the Jews of that time to fall away?  The nation of Isreal did not accept Jesus as the Messiah...they turned their back upon God at that moment.  They fell away.  Now in the eyes of the nation of Isreal what would it take to get them back?  In their eyes it would be the Messiah to come...that is what they are waiting on.  They know there is to be a Messiah.  But as mentioned they do not believe that Jesus was that Messiah.  So what would it take to get them to come back into repentance?  It would take the coming of the Messiah...and that has already happened...that would take Christ coming back again and being crucified all over again.

Once saved...once crucified...always saved

I have to agree and disagree ;D

you are right brother......one who continues in sin was never really saved at all. I was one of them.

One who is saved can not be unsaved, because they are a new creation in God and will seek His will in all things......it is a true transformation and therefore, is irreversable.

If they appear to "lose" thier relationship with God......they never really had one to begin with, though the seeds have been planted and with love and prayer, may still grow.

The key here is that we can not know their heart as we all know. Only God can so ultimatly.....God will separate the sheep from the goats.

God Bless

Once saved is always saved.

http://faithalone.org/news/y1992/92july3.html
http://faithalone.org/news/y1992/92sep3.html

Hi saved by grace,

I agree that once saved, always saved.  I've search this quest out for myself several years.  There are much wiser men then I on both side of the coin.  I truely hope you find peace in the answer you settle with.  Your peace is at stake, not your salvation.  No man can see into the heart of another to know beyond a doubt if they posess a saving faith or not.  NO MAN!  It's God's realm.  Have fun studying.  ;D

Peace to you,
your brother in Christ,
Bill

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosever believeth in Him should not perish but HAVE everlasting (eternal) life."

When you believe in Christ, you HAVE eternal life.

If you have something "eternal" but lose it, it was not very "eternal" was it?

Amen!  Len.   ;D

I didn't always believe that way though.  It made for quite a roller coaster ride in my stumbly walk with Christ.  I was up and down depending on how I performed my daily activies.  Whether I was kind enough, or if I blew it big time.  Then I wondered if I was saved at all.   :-\  I am so, so grateful to Him for opening up my eyes and heart to His. He will never, I must repeat, NEVER leave me or forsake me.  He has never broke His word.  Never. 

your brother in love, in Christ,

Bill

IF saved always saved should be the real saying. In Hebrews the author uses what are the eequivalent to a hypothetical situation in Hebrews 6:4-6. I think i have a thread running somewhere around here talkign about Hebrews 6:4-6, not sure, but to summerize. Whoever said that the author was writing to the Hebrews was right. However what many people forget is that there is what is called an immediate audience and a universal audience. When interpreting scripture we must keep in mind that those things written to an immediate audience were written specifically for an immediate audience, however, as a universal audience, we have to take that truth and apply it to our lives as well. Hence Hebrews. Looking at the language in Hebrews, the author ingeniusly places words in a pretty clear order.

4For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6if they then fall away, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

The author says "It is impossible to restore again to repentance to those who have once been enlightened" the word enlightened means "to be made brighter" "to be allowed to see" As it says that it's impossible that if you fall away that there's no coming back pretty much because we are "crucifying once again the Son of God and holding Him up to contempt"  basically saying when a person falls away, there is no coming back because they would be crucifying Christ all over again which has already been done once. Why would we need to do it again? One time is all we need to save us. Not save over and over. Granted i need saving from my wife when she comes after me with a broom from time to time, but it's not the same thing lol. Our salvation is final once we accept our Lord's death in atonement for our sin and we are reconciled, justified, redeemed, and sanctified (which the sanctification process of our souls is over with, however the sanctification process of our flesh continues until we're given a glorified body) So yea...i'd say that IF we're truely saved, we're not going to want to do anything to screw up that "enlightenment, sharing of the Holy Spirit, and spiritual gifts that God gives through manifestation of the Holy Spirit."  I've screwed up alot in my life. And i've fallen back on my back even recently. And it's a struggle to get back up, but with GOD"S help I can get through my day. Even if it's just a little prayer that I mutter as I'm getting out of the bed, I know God is with me and I know God hears me and my heart. Now am I lost because I've "backslid". NO. I know that my God still loves me no matter what and He isn't going to give me up. But as Romans says "Let every man be persuaded in his own mind" I know what my God has given me and I know where I stand...even sometimes when I begin to doubt where I stand (due to growing up and living in the real world...i'm 19 and married so i'm learning what the real world is all about lol) Anyways, that's just my thoughts...my wife's at work so I get out of chores until she gets home this evening lol. Think on what i've said, take it to heart if you like, do with it what you wish, but it's out there for all to see. :) God Bless

Coram Deo,
Joshua

1 John 1:6-10 ASV
(6)  If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
(7)  but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
(8)  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(9)  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
(10)  If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


We must remember that we are to "walk in the light"  It is not enough to say "I believe"  and then be done with it.  We must continue to walk in the light.  When we do stumble and sin, as all have and do, we need to repent and ask for forgivenness as noted above in verse 9.  We must be obedient! 

1 John 2:1-5 ASV
(1)  My little children, these things write I unto you that ye may not sin. And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
(2)  and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.
(3)  And hereby we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
(4)  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
(5)  but whoso keepeth his word, in him verily hath the love of God been perfected. Hereby we know that we are in him:

Amen...christianity without practicallity is dead as i like to say it. If we don't apply God's truths to our daily lives, we continue walking in darkness...thus against what God says in His holy Word.

Joshua

It is also our responsibility as Chrsitians to help restore one who has fallen away.

Galatians 6:1 ASV
(1)  Brethren, even if a man be overtaken in any trespass, ye who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; looking to thyself, lest thou also be tempted.



James 5:19-20 ASV
(19)  My brethren, if any among you err from the truth, and one convert him;
(20)  let him know, that he who converteth a sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.

Good works (obedience, walking in the light, or whatever term you use for what we do to please Him, to be centered in His will) are a result of salvation...not a cause. Ephesians 2:8,9 and other Scripture make that clear. Jesus saves us all by Himself without our help or He does not save us at all. Otherwise He would not have said as His last words on Calvary, "It is finished".

Anyone who does not think salvation was finished upon the death of Christ calls Christ a liar. If we can be saved by our good works, Christ died in vain. He could then have come , showed us and told us how we should live and ascended right back to Heaven and could have skipped the cross. But He did not. He came, He sufferd, He died, He was buried that we might be saved and He was resurrected on the third day according to the Scriptures proving Himself to be God.

Our response to that incredible sacrifice should be one of complete and faithful submission to His will. But as long as we are in this sinful body, we will fail, some more miserably than others. Time in the Word and in prayer seem to help us mature. And our response to various issues...temptaion, His call on our lives, our evagelistic activity, obedience, etc....are what will determine the degree of our Heavenly reward. Some believers will have great reward, others not so great. But all believers, regardless of our lives on earth, will all be citizens of Paradise. (Remember the thief on the cross?)

Absolutely Len!!!   ;D  ;D  ;D

It's not by works of anykind.  And I don't keep my salvation by my works either.  And my righteousness is filthy rags.  But Christ's righteousness, imparted to me, by His grace, through faith in Him, well, eternal life, eternally, secured by Him.  Sealed by His Spirit till the day I leave this place and see Him face to face.     ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D

In this I rest, He-did-it-all.  Start to "finish".  I never sought Him, He sought me.  So to speak.   Nothing added, nothing taken away.   ;D  I can never lose my salvation.   ;D  No one and nothing can take me out of my Father's hand.  It's His grace upon me.  His call upon me.  His power upon me.  I'm His workmanship.  Created in Christ Jesus to do good works.  No wonder Paul said; 

"Who shall seperate us from the love of Christ?  Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?  As it is written:  "For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."  Yet in all these thing we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.  For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angles nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."  Romans 8:35-39

My parents will always be my parents.  I will always be their son.  Can't be undone.  God will always be my Father, my Abba Father.  And I will always be His son.  It's eternal.   ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D 

love, your brother in Christ,
Bill
     

 

Brothers and Sisters,

I'll simply say thanks for GOD'S unspeakable GIFT that I didn't deserve and could never earn - JESUS CHRIST - my Lord and Saviour forever!

Salvation is NOT on the installment plan. JESUS CHRIST finished the work on the Cross, and there is nothing I can add to HIS PERFECT and completed work.

At the moment of accepting JESUS CHRIST as my Lord and Saviour, many beautiful and precious things happened that involve the promises of GOD:

1 - I was baptized by the Holy Spirit of GOD, and the Holy Spirit of GOD entered my heart for eternity.

2 - My heart was sealed WITH the Holy Spirit of GOD as a pledge of the eternal promises of GOD. NO power in the universe can break the SEAL of the Holy Spirit of GOD.

3 - I became a purchased possession of JESUS CHRIST. GOD the FATHER gave me to JESUS CHRIST, and NO power can pluck me out of HIS Mighty Hands.

4 - I was translated into the Kingdom of GOD'S Dear Son for eternity.

5 - I became a member of a church not made with human hands, the ETERNAL CHURCH which is the BODY OF CHRIST. My membership is based upon what JESUS CHRIST did on the Cross.

6 - GOD the FATHER sees me in and through JESUS CHRIST forever. GOD the FATHER sees the Righteousness of JESUS CHRIST - not my righteousness, primarily because I don't have any righteousness, nor will I ever obtain any righteousness of my own. My righteousness is ONLY in JESUS CHRIST.

7 - The Law of Faith in JESUS CHRIST has set me free from the curse of sin and death.

8 - I have been forgiven of all my sins because of the PERFECT SACRIFICE of JESUS CHRIST on the Cross. HIS BLOOD has washed my sins away.

9 - ONLY JESUS CHRIST makes me fit to obtain the inheritance of the Saints in LIGHT. The LIGHT is JESUS CHRIST, my Lord and Saviour forever.

10 - I have received the Promises of ALMIGHTY GOD and have ETERNAL LIFE in JESUS CHRIST. ALMIGHTY GOD ALWAYS KEEPS HIS PROMISES.

Brothers and Sisters, there are many other things that are usually part of this discussion. I will simply say that I believe all of the above is set in concrete and involves the Promises of ALMIGHTY GOD.

I want to do good works for the LORD because I love HIM and appreciate everything HE has done for me. My good works are only considered good works if I do them ONLY because I love HIM. If I do good works because I want recognition or do them as some sort of payment, those good works will be burned up and worthless. I can't pay for anything because the PERFECT PRICE has already been PAID IN FULL BY JESUS CHRIST ON THE CROSS! It is an insult to GOD to think that I have anything worthy to be added to the PERFECT and COMPLETED work of JESUS CHRIST.

In short and in conclusion, I am saved and belong to JESUS CHRIST forever. I already have the PROMISES of ALMIGHTY GOD HIMSELF, and it is DEFINITELY FINISHED! All I can do is give thanks, praise HIM, worship HIM, and know that I am NOT my own, rather I am a purchased possession of JESUS CHRIST. I have been delivered to HIM and NO power can take me away from HIM!


Love In Christ,
Tom

John 1:1-4 NASB  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.

John 11:25 NASB  Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

John 14:6-7 NASB  Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."

Galatians 2:20 NASB  "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

1 John 1:1-4 NASB  What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life -- and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us -- what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.

Ditto BEP

 ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D

Remember what Mary said after Elizabeth and her greeted one another?

"My soul magnifies the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior..."

I am so blessed in your reply.  My heart can hardly contain it.  My.  God is so good!!!!!!!!


Thanks
your brother in Christ,
Bill

Brother Bill,

This is a part of the joy that we share as Brothers and Sisters in Christ. I'm thinking about many portions in the Holy Bible that either begin or end with "that your joy might be more full." This pertains to right now, even in this short life. It is my opinion that GOD wants us to have 100% assurance of Salvation so that we can live more victorious lives in JESUS. The key to everything is IN JESUS because "IN JESUS" means that the victory is already won.

Brother, it isn't just you or I, it's JESUS CHRIST. If our "JOY IS FULL IN JESUS CHRIST, that JOY is forever. There are many other beautiful examples to think about often and KNOW beyond any doubt. As another example, our STRENGTH is in JESUS - not ourselves. I'm thinking right now about those portions that begin or end with "that your joy might be more full", and it's a beautiful way to end the day. It's also a good way to begin each day - GIVING THANKS!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Matthew 25:35-40  NASB  'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'

(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/tinabaran/amen.jpg)

AMEN Len and to all AMEN and Praise Jesus.

I am glad this is a forum....here it is 1am Sat Night...finished my lesson for tomorrow I read the great words spoken on this thread and darned near shouted it out...would have woke the house.  typy real fast to get it out :D

Christian Greetings all,

This is, far and above, the most sound commentary on this controversial passage i have ever seen.

Armininists, will say "once lost, always lost !”

Calvinist's will say they were never saved in the first place - they were just "tasters" - see**

As usual, the truth lies in between.

Most importantly, however is the recognition that this is not about salvation, it is about repentance !

Expositors Bible Commentary - Leon Morris, Principal, Ridley College, Melbourne

 The writer proceeds to underline the seriousness of apostasy from the Christian faith and, indeed, of any failure to make progress. He does this by pointing to the impossibility of making a second beginning. It is impossible for a Christian to stand still. He either progresses in the faith or slips back. And slipping back is serious; it can mean cutting oneself off from the blessings God offers. The writer is not questioning the perseverance of the saints. As he has done before, he is insisting that only those who continue in the Christian way are the saints.

4 "For" (gar, omitted in NIV) indicates the reasonableness of what follows: Had they really fallen away, there would be no point in talking to them. Some see in the reference to being "enlightened" a glance at baptism, for this verb was often used of baptism in the second century. But it is not attested as early as this, and so it is better to interpret the term in the light of the general usage whereby those admitted to the Christian faith are brought to that light that is "the light of the world" (John 8:12; cf. 2Cor 4:6; 2 Peter 1:19). To abandon the gospel would be to sin against the light they had received.
    "The heavenly gift" is not closely defined. Some interpret it as the holy communion, though there seems little reason for this. It would fit well with the verb "tasted," but this verb can be used metaphorically; so the point proves little. The word "gift" (dorea) points to freeness but could be used of any one of a variety of gifts. The thought is of God's good gift and we cannot be more precise than this. The Holy Spirit is active among all believers and for that matter to some extent beyond the church, in his work of "common grace." It is clear that some activity of the Spirit is in mind. Yet once more our author does not define it closely.

5 The people in question have "tasted* the goodness of the word of God." While some limit this to the gospel, there seems to be no need and no point in doing this. Any word that God has spoken is a good gift to men, and those the writer has in mind here have come to hear something of God's word to men. They have also experienced something of "the powers of the coming age." The age to come is normally the Messianic Age, and the thought is that powers proper to the coming Messianic Age are in some sense realized now for God's people. "Powers" indicates that that age puts at men's disposal powers they do not have of themselves.   **(DCW note - “Tasted” is used of Jesus in Heb 2:9  =  “truly experienced”  - no Calvinist commentary will make this connection)

6 "If they fall away" means "fall away from Christianity." The verb parapipto is found only here in the NT, and its meaning is clear. The writer is envisaging people who have been numbered among the followers of Christ but now leave that company. Such cannot be brought back to repentance. Notice that he does not say "cannot be forgiven" or "cannot be restored to salvation" or the like. It is repentance that is in mind, and the writer says that it is impossible for these people to repent. This might mean that the repentance that involves leaving a whole way of life to embrace the Christian way is unique. In the nature of the case, it cannot be repeated. There is no putting the clock back. But it seems more likely that the reference is to a repentance that means leaving the backsliding into which the person has fallen. He cannot bring himself to this repentance. The marginal reading "while they are crucifying the Son of God" is attractive, but in the end it really amounts to a truism and scarcely seems adequate. The tense, however, does convey the idea of a continuing attitude.
    It is probable that we should take the verb rendered "are crucifying ... all over again" (anastaurountas) simply as "crucifying." Elsewhere it seems always to have this meaning. The author is saying that those who deny Christ in this way are really taking their stand among those who crucified Jesus. In heart and mind they make themselves one with those who put him to death on the cross at Calvary. Heautois ("to themselves"; NIV, "to their loss") points to this inward attitude. The final words of v. 6 stress what this attitude means.
    There has been much discussion of the significance of this passage. Some think that the author is speaking about genuine Christians who fall away and that he denies that they may ever come back. This view sets the writer of the epistle in contradiction with other NT writers for whom it is clear that the perseverance of the saints is something that comes from God and not from their own best efforts (e.g., John 6:37; 10:27-29). Others think that the case is purely hypothetical. Because the writer does not say that this has ever happened, they infer that it never could really happen and that to put it this way makes the warning more impressive. But unless the writer is speaking of something that could really happen, it is not a warning about anything. Granted, he does not say that anyone has apostatized in this way, nevertheless, he surely means that someone could, and he does not want his readers to do so. A third possibility is that the writer is talking about what looks very much like the real thing but lacks something. The case of Simon Magus springs to mind. He is said to have believed, to have been baptized, and to have continued with Philip (Acts 8:13). Presumably he shared in the laying on of hands and the gift given by it. Yet after all this Peter could say to him, "Your heart is not right before God....you are full of bitterness and captive to sin" (Acts 8:21-23). The writer is saying that when people have entered into the Christian experience far enough to know what it is all about and have then turned away, then, as far as they themselves are concerned, they are crucifying Christ. In that state they cannot repent.


*footnote  6   In the verb anastauro÷ (anastauroo) the prefix ana (ana) is usually taken in the sense of "up," "to lift up on a cross." In other compounds ana sometimes signifies "again," and this is why some take the verb here to mean recrucify. But as this sense is not attested elsewhere it seems better to take it as "crucify."

Doc

I find that some interesting reading.  But I do not know if I fully accept what it is saying. 

I know it is not talking about salvation so let me get that out of the way :)

But it only referring to repentance is something that I just do not see in those verses.  First let me ensure that what you quoted is referring to repentance as I know it (cause sometimes definitions can be different).

I see repentance as being remorseful of actions, in this case sins.  It is a changing of one's mind in that they would turn from that sin nature and turn towards God.  This also includes a continued effort to stay the course towards God and not that sin nature.

If this be same definition that the author is speaking of, or you are referring too then I would have to say that is incorrect.  I was saved when I was 18 years old.  When I was in my early 30's I fell into deep sin.  Lost my house and nearly lost my family due to gambling.  I knew what I was doing to myself, to my family, and most importantly I knew what I was doing to Jesus.  It mattered to me, but Satan had put me in front of everything, and I knew the I could get me and my family out of this mess, I got us into it and I could get us out (note that is what I was thinking...not what I truly knew).

By the author and the gist of what I think you were saying
If those that have been in the Christian experience turn away (commit sin and live a sinful life) then they are crucifying Christ.  I agree with that.  When we sin we may as well drive the nails in a little deeper.  In that state they cannot repent (cannot be regretful of their sin, turn from that sin and turn back towards God).  That is the part I disagree with.  If that were the case then no one would ever be repentive, because we all sin and fall short of the glory of God.  Even those who are saved.  We should try and live a sin free life that is true.  But it is not possible and so we must be continually repentive of our actions and always look to God.

If committing sin or living in a sin nature means you cannot be repent from that sin, then I am a walking contradiction.  Besides my run with gambling which the Lord broke me of there have been other times I have sinned.  And the Lord lets me know and I turn my heart back to Him.  So I really do not believe that these verses deal with repentance because I personally have been repentive many times over. 

Yeah, I gotta go with Bro. Jerry on this. That is my understanding as well. I think it is possible to commit a sin, repent, commit it again, repent and be in a vicious cycle. That is what I understand to be the sin that leads unto death, be it drugs, alcohol, pornography or some other sexual sin, lying, stealing, or murder. Even Paul addressed this issue, I believe in Romans 7 (I don't have my Sword with me right now). Hopefully, we can, at some point, grow to where we are totally leaning on Him, totally focused on Him, totally devoted to Him and no longer have need of repentance. I think that is where Bro. Jerry has found himself (Praise God Almighty for His faithfulness).

I think a believer (Christian) can have an area in his/her life that has not been relinquished totally to Christ for disposition and satan has a foothold. That person can be demonically oppressed (note: not "possessed") and he/she is ineffective in the service of His Kingdom. This is why we should allow ourselves to be held accountable to a brother/sister. This will provide a means of running off that ol' demon and hopefully result in spiritual growth.

I don't know what Bro. Jerry's testimony is in detail but I would imagine a sweet brother in Christ was there to help him along. One of God's gifts to us is each other.

Amen!



Jam 5:14  Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Jam 5:15  And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Jam 5:16  Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.



Eph 1:13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

BJ,

"If committing sin or living in a sin nature means you cannot be repent from that sin, then I am a walking contradiction."  

What Leon is saying is that if your frame of mind does not care if you repent or not - you are enjoying your sin and have hardened your heart to the call of God - you cannot repent - you have no interest in repenting.

The verse says "If they shall fall away, (it is impossoble) to renew them again unto repentance..."

Question folks,

Who brought you to repentance in the first place?  Your folks? Your pastor?  Your wife or husband?

I suggest it is none of the above.  They may have helped, but only He who truly knows your heart can prompt you to repent - sincerely - of all your sin.  Only He knows when you have properly cleaned your house of sin.  Jesus brought you to repentance in the first place - and IF you fall, He will do it again.  It is impossible for me, or any of the above mention folks to do it if you don't desire a clean heart again.  You may even resist Him like you did at first - many have and still do.

The "taster" issue is paramount.  Geuomai is used 3 times in this great book - same author, same word - same meaning.  Jesus did not simply sample death - He really died - (for us all, PTL?)  Those fallen folks were really saved.

I will state that OSOS is a destructive doctrine - not supported by scripture when context is considered - and provides a false sense of security for lip professing folks    It is the primary reason why a lifestyle of true holiness is ignored by many Christians.

Do I understand you, doc, that you think salvation can be lost? If you do, my friend, please review Scripture. Christ Himself said that we can never be plucked from the hand of God. Was He lying or mistaken? If He was either, then Christ is not God, His Word is a lie, and you and I are wasting our time talkling about all of this.

Holy Scripture is replete with the assurance of salvation. Christ said we can know that we have eternal life. If we can lose our salvation, how can we know we have eternal life?

Colossians 1 O.G., is "if indeed you continue in the faith having been founded and steadfast..." We are not likely to continue in any faith if we are not founded and steadfast, no? You kinda have the cart before the horse in your interpretation.

In Matthew, Christ is speaking of a result of salvation, not a cause.

In Hebrews, He is talking about the Heavenly reward to be received at the Bema. O.G. says "recompense". Salvation is not recompense. Reward at the Bema is recompense for good works done in His power and name. God is indeed not pleased by us if we shrink back from His will as believers. But we do not lose our salvation due to not doing good works. We lose reward at the Bema. You should have started at least at verse 35 which says, "So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded."

2 Peter is talking about those who have heard the plan of salvation but reject it for themselves. Those people are never saved if they don't change their minds.   

Now, I would refer you to

Romans 8:1,2. "There is therefore, now, no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has set me free from the law of sin and death."
When we are saved, we no longer are under the law but under grace.

Romans 8:38 "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
I am in creation. My works...good, bad, and indifferent...are in creation, all things afre in creation. Yet none can separate me from His love.
 

John10:28,29 This one you seem to want to ignore at face value.

Ephesians 2:8,9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast."
Our good works do not lead to salvation. As far as salvation, they are as filthy rags.(Is. 64:5,6) They only lead to reward as mentioned in Hebrews 10:35.

2 Corinthians 1:21,22 "Now He who establishes us with you in Christ ands anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge".
If we are sealed but can lose our salvation, the seal is not a seal. Are you saying the seal is not really a seal?

These are just a very few that come to the mind of a lay person. I am not a pastor. I am no Bible scholar. I have no degree in theoology. I am just a working stiff who is in the trades. But I know that when God says something, i can lay my life in it and rest secured in the knowledge that He backs his word with action, and always to my joy and celebration.


I would appreciate anyone else's help on this. Feel free to jump in anytime. I knwo there are countless verses that show clearly that once salvation is ours, it never is lost and never has to be gained again.

Hi Len,

Yes there are many verses that establish the eternal security of Salvation. I'll point out some of those that pertain to this subject in a minute. First I would like to quote an unknown person on this very subject that is a favorite of mine.


Mat 15:13  But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

One of my favorites on this subject is the parable of the sower. (Mat 13 ). If Salvation is not founded in good soil then it will not have good roots and will soon fail. We see this also with the story of the foolish man that built his house on the sand. (Mat 7 )

Salvation that is in truth built on and in Jesus Christ will stand through all sorts of trials and tribulations.

When Jesus makes us a promise He does not go back on that promise:

Joh 10:26  But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

:And I give unto them eternal life", that is eternal, forever, not temporary. Throughout Scripture it is taught that we shall have everlasting Life and Eternal Life if we are Born-Again. Note that Everlasting and Eternal mean the same thing.


Eph 1:13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

We are sealed, that is a promise not an if or a maybe and we are sealed until the redemption of the purchased possession.

Phi 1:6  Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Heb 13:5  Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

We have the promise that He will continue the work in us that He has begun and that He will never leave us nor forsake us.

If we can lose our salvation because we fail in our walk with the Lord by committing a sin then we are saying that salvation is based on works. To say that we must do good works in order to maintain salvation is to say that His works on the cross were not complete.

2Ti 1:9  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2Ti 1:9  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


I KNOW whom I have believed....and I TRUST that HE IS ABLE to deliver that which I have committed unto Him against that day.

Len (sorry about the k) and PR,

Colossians 1 O.G., is "if indeed you continue in the faith having been founded and steadfast..." We are not likely to continue in any faith if we are not founded and steadfast, no? You kinda have the cart before the horse in your interpretation.

Where did the “having been” come from Len?  I can't find that reading in any version I have.  It is not in any Koine Greek mss. either.  It seems to me to be editorialized by the same kind of folks that say “since” instead of “if indeed” in this same verse.  OSAS is so powerful a desire in mankind that many assurance verses have to be adjusted to comply with this misinterpretation of Scripture.   (What is O.G., Len?)

The issue of continuing to be faithful after our salvation is demonstrated in Romans - in a good translation - where Paul says: “So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.  There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.”  Romans 7:25-8:2  NKJV

As condemnation is the opposite of justification, we can see what Paul is trying to say here.  Any true Christian who intentionally and habitually turns his back on Christ and chooses to “walk in his flesh” jeopardizes his justification.  Now, because God is our only judge, He knows how long and how much of this behavior one must commit to before he has changed his destination.  The contrast between life and death (Spirit/flesh  - Law of God/Law of sin) is unmistakable here.  Paul is not talking of initial decisions here, he is addressing our post-salvation life styles.

Flesh or Spirit walking is a day to day choice all Christians must make.  As we mature as born again Christians God desires we progress in our sanctification - become more holy - more set apart for His work.  Grow up in Him.  The Hebrew  writer says: “... we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.  For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food.  For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”    Hebrews 5:11- 14 NKJV

By the way, we do not “loose our salvation” as if we lost a coin thru a hole in our pocket - we decidedly give it away by turning around again (reconvert) - turning our backs on our savior - “...trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?”   Hebrews 10:29 NKJV

Why do you folks think these verses are in our Bibles.  Jesus said the Way is narrow and few are on it !  Being a true, heartfelt and obedient Christian is not an easy thing.  A.W. Tozer said the teaching of a “Smooth Cross” was shame in his day.  His cross has many splinters and it hurts to get up on it daily.  Didn't Paul tell us to do that?

Psa 37:23  The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.
Psa 37:24  Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.

Psa 145:14  The LORD upholdeth all that fall, and raiseth up all those that be bowed down. 

1Jo 5:11  And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Heb 10:14  For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

2Th 2:16  Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

2Ti 2:13  If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Tit 1:2  In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

2Th 3:3  But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

1. The blessings of salvation cannot be lost because of the nature of salvation: (1) Salvation is eternal (Jn. 3:16,36). (2) Salvation is a present possession (Ro. 5; 1 Pe. 2:24-25). (3) Salvation is by imputation and substitution (2 Co. 5:17; Ga. 2:20; He. 9:10; Ro. 3:24). (4) Salvation is positional (Ep. 1:3 -- “in Christ”; Ro. 6:7; Col. 2:10; 3:1-4,12). (5) Salvation is not of human merit; it is a free gift of grace which cannot be mixed with works (Ep. 2:8-9; Tit. 3:3-7; Ro. 3:19-28; 4:4-5; 11:6).

2. The blessings of salvation cannot be lost because of the results of salvation: (1) Eternal life (Jn. 3:16). (2) Justification (Ro. 5:1; 3:19-28). (3) Peace with God (Ro. 5:1). (4) Sure possession of future glory (Ro. 5:2; Col. 3:1-4). (5) Salvation from future wrath (Ro. 5:9). (6) Raised up with Christ (Ro. 6). (7) Blessed with all spiritual blessings in Christ (Ep. 1:3). (8) Sealed with the Holy Spirit (Ep. 4:30). (9) Passed from darkness to light (Col. 1:12-14).

3. The blessings of salvation cannot be lost because of the teaching of election: Election does not destroy human responsibility (2 Th. 2:10-13; Ac. 13:46,48), but election does promise security for the believer (Ro. 8:28-39; Ep. 1; 1 Pe. 1:2-7).

4. The blessings of salvation cannot be lost because lack of good works involves loss of rewards and fruitfulness, not loss of one’s eternal relationship with Christ (1 Co. 3:15; Tit. 3:14; 2 Jn. 8).

5. The blessings of salvation cannot be lost because of the believer’s union with Christ. The believing sinner is placed “in Christ” and stands or falls with Him (Col. 1:14; Eph. 1-3 -- “in Christ” mentioned 25 times; He. 9:10; 1 Pe. 1:18-23; 2:6,24-25).


THE DISOBEDIENT CHRISTIAN DOES NOT LOSE HIS SALVATION, WHAT DOES HAPPEN TO HIM?

(1) The sinning Christian is out of fellowship with the Lord and his people (1 Jn. 1:3-7). (2) The sinning Christian is helped and loved by the Lord Jesus Christ (1 Jn. 2:1-2). (3) The sinning Christian is chastened by the Father (He. 12:5-11). (4) The sinning Christian loses irreplaceable opportunities for service and fruit (Ep. 5:14-17; Mt. 9:36-38; 1 Th. 5:4-10). The sinning Christian can be forgiven, but he cannot regain the lost opportunities and the hurt he has caused by his sin. (5) The sinning Christian will suffer loss at the judgment seat of Christ (1 Co. 3:11-15; 2 Co. 5:10; 1 Ti. 6:17-19; 1 Jn. 2:28).

DOC: Len (sorry about the k) and PR,

LEN: Hehe. No sweat. I get it a lot.

DOC Colossians 1 O.G., is "if indeed you continue in the faith having been founded and steadfast..." We are not likely to continue in any faith if we are not founded and steadfast, no? You kinda have the cart before the horse in your interpretation.

Where did the “having been” come from Len?  I can't find that reading in any version I have.  It is not in any Koine Greek mss. either.  It seems to me to be editorialized by the same kind of folks that say “since” instead of “if indeed” in this same verse. OSAS is so powerful a desire in mankind that many assurance verses have to be adjusted to comply with this misinterpretation of Scripture.   (What is O.G., Len?)

LEN: You are quite correct. My bad. I had found some old notes and "...having been..." was part of them but not part of O.G. (original Greek) version. But it still does not change the message.

DOC: The issue of continuing to be faithful after our salvation is demonstrated in Romans - in a good translation - where Paul says: “So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.  There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.”  Romans 7:25-8:2  NKJV

As condemnation is the opposite of justification, we can see what Paul is trying to say here.  Any true Christian who intentionally and habitually turns his back on Christ and chooses to “walk in his flesh” jeopardizes his justification.  Now, because God is our only judge, He knows how long and how much of this behavior one must commit to before he has changed his destination.  The contrast between life and death (Spirit/flesh  - Law of God/Law of sin) is unmistakable here.  Paul is not talking of initial decisions here, he is addressing our post-salvation life styles.

LEN: Agreed, in part. This is one Scripture that addresses this issue of those who have seemingly been saved but "fall away". It was one I had looked for for my last post but could not find it. It just so happens it was covered this very morning at my church. Take a look at 1 John 2:19-25. "They went out from us but did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us, but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
"But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist - he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
"See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what He promised us - even eternal life."

DOC: Flesh or Spirit walking is a day to day choice all Christians must make.  As we mature as born again Christians God desires we progress in our sanctification - become more holy - more set apart for His work.  Grow up in Him.  The Hebrew  writer says: “... we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.  For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food.  For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”    Hebrews 5:11- 14 NKJV

LEN: Exactly. For the believer, it has to do with maturity and growth, not for regaining salvation (which was "finished " - Jesus' words -  at Calvary) through works.

DOC: By the way, we do not “loose our salvation” as if we lost a coin thru a hole in our pocket - we decidedly give it away by turning around again (reconvert) - turning our backs on our savior - “...trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?”   Hebrews 10:29 NKJV

LEN: Lose it or throw it away, salvation cannot be gained by works. Why would Jesus go through Calvary if He could show the way and we could work our way to eternity? No, He didn't come to show the way. He became the Way. THE Way. T-H-E Way. The ONLY Way. "Christ died for our sins, once and for all." There is not one half of one single solitary thing we can do to make it happen.

DOC: Why do you folks think these verses are in our Bibles.  Jesus said the Way is narrow and few are on it !  Being a true, heartfelt and obedient Christian is not an easy thing.  A.W. Tozer said the teaching of a “Smooth Cross” was shame in his day.  His cross has many splinters and it hurts to get up on it daily.  Didn't Paul tell us to do that?

LEN: Those verses are there because they are true. Many who call themselves Christians do so, not because they are Christians but because they think that since they have never physically murdered, don't habitually lie, go to church every Sunday (or twice a year), tithe, have "walked the aisle", been dunked by a preacher, or have a family member who does all that stuff. They think they can just claim to be and be saved. They think that just because they know about Christ...believe He exists...that they are saved. "Even the demons believe and shudder." But they do not KNOW Him in a saving way. "Now this is eternal life, that they may KNOW You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." When we know Him in that way, we HAVE eternal life...right now..."once and for all". THEN comes the maturation...the growth.

Thanks for stepping in there, PR.

Doc, if you have a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, look up all the references to salvation with the the key word being "know". We can never know if we have salvation if there is any chance that we may have not repented of some slight sin. By "slight", I mean one which we may be dealing with but does not lead to death...such as speeding or dealing with anger we may have for a brother in Christ. Those little things are as big of a sin as murder in the eyes of God. And according to what you have posted, a believer can be doomed to eternity in the lake of fire. I just don't see that in Scripture...and I have looked.

My obedience is not obedience to keep my salvation. It is obedience as a response in appreciation of a sacrifice by a Holy God who gave up His only Begotten Son rather than give me what I so rightly deserve.

Praise Jesus Christ that He looked down from the cross with a mercy-filled heart and took my sin "once and for all" that I might spend all of eternity with Him. What joy fills my heart, mind, soul, and body when I think about that incredible gift, so undeserved by me, a sinner till He takes me home.   

All glory and honor and praise to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Way, the Truth, the Life.

Brothers,

I've argued this issue before and took it too far, so I know that I'll never do that again. This appears to be a pleasant discussion, so I just want to add a few thoughts into the mix.

1 - There are NO holy Christians who can live without sin. There just isn't any living man in this short life who fits the description of Holy and without sin except JESUS CHRIST. So, if living without sin was a condition for salvation, no man or woman would be saved - NOT ONE. This was one of the primary purposes of JESUS and the Cross.

2 - There are many areas of the Bible that make heavy comparisons between Law and Grace. There are also many areas of the Bible that pertain to BEFORE THE CROSS.

3 - There are many areas of the Bible that speak of things that make our joy more full, NOT SALVATION OR LOSS OR SALVATION.

4 - There are all kinds of punishment that don't amount to loss of Salvation, and all Christians experience punishment for sins in this short life:  1) chastisement; 2) loss of rewards; 3) illness;  4) fellowship and closeness to GOD suffering;  5) less of GOD pouring out HIS blessings; 6) maybe even physical death  7) many other things  - BUT, none of these things are loss of Salvation. Loss of Salvation would be spiritual death.

5 - One should never suggest that Salvation is maintained by good works because this simply isn't true. One should also never suggest that Salvation is maintained by living Holy and without sin because that is impossible for a human being in this life. If a Christian in this short life says that they are Holy and without sin, they are a liar, and the truth of GOD is not in them.

6 - Many take isolated portions of Scripture, fail to consider the context, fail to consider the speaker, fail to consider the audience, fail to consider the purpose, fail to consider differences between Israel and the BODY OF CHRIST, fail to consider before or after the Cross, and generally wind up with a gross misunderstanding of GOD'S WORD because they didn't RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH.

7 - David committed adultery AFTER he was known as a man after GOD'S HEART. YET, David was not put to physical death, and we must also remember that this was before the Cross. SO, did David suffer spiritual death for eternity because of his sin that was then listed as a sin unto death? NO!  David would represent a big problem for many who fail to understand portions of the Holy Bible. If David has been put to physical death for his sin, would that have also meant David suffered spiritual death?  NO!  Again, we must fully consider this was before the Cross, so how much different would circumstances like this be after the CROSS? Go ahead and add a few more "what if's" in David's case. What if David had failed to repent and didn't beg GOD for forgiveness. Would David have then been doomed to the fires of hell forever?  NO!  We must remember what was ACCOUNTED as righteousness in the Old Testament, and if you are thinking personal holiness and righteousness - you would be wrong. SO, was GRACE dispensed by GOD in the Old Testament before the CROSS?  YES!  Was this grace given only to people who deserved it?  NO!  Did David suffer punishment for committing adultery?  YES!   Is David's punishment for eternity in hell?  NO!


Finally, does any Christian have their own righteousness? NO - NONE but filthy rags. The Holy Bible rebukes those who go around trying to obtain their own righteousness and refusing to yield to the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST. Human beings in this short life WILL NOT find or obtain any of their own righteousness or holiness because it's impossible for a human being. The ONLY Righteousness and Holiness for a Christian in this short life is to be seen IN AND THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. Our ONLY holiness and righteousness is IMPUTED to our account by JESUS CHRIST ALONE.

Here are a couple of other things to consider in this issue:  1) can a person get a glimpse or a "taste" of the riches of CHRIST and not be saved?  -  YES!  2) can a Christian commit a sin unto PHYSICAL death without repentance and still be saved?  -  YES!  This could and does lead to all kinds of other questions that relate to NO assurance of Salvation.

If a person is TRULY SAVED, the PROMISES of ALMIGHTY GOD are given right then. Those promises from GOD are not based upon the righteousness or holiness of the person who received GOD'S GIFT. It would not be wise to suggest that GOD lies or breaks HIS PROMISES! It is my firm belief that GOD wants Christians to live victorious lives in JESUS with 100% assurance of Salvation. The PROMISES OF GOD are that 100% assurance of Salvation. There are NO holy or righteous Christians, but we do have a Lord and Saviour, JESUS CHRIST, WHO IS OUR ONLY RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HOLINESS. SO, what are the real answers?


Love In Christ,
Tom

Galatians 2:19-21 NASB  "For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

BEP, thank you, Brother. Very, very good post. Concise. Precise. To the point. As complete a post as I've seen on the assurance of salvation in everyday terms. Full of reason.

Agree. Agree 100%.

You are most welcome.

I have lived long enough to see many Christians agonize over Salvation, especially after they get older, become ill, or know that there might be a chance of some lengthy or severe illness. I've heard them ask about what happens if they have a stroke, get Alzheimer's, or otherwise lose their ability to be in control of their minds. They are worried about doing something or saying something that will cause GOD to remove their Salvation. The truth is very comforting and involves the everlasting promises of GOD. I meant to mention this, but I forgot. NO, I don't have Alzheimer's yet - or do I?   :D

Our ALMIGHTY GOD knows all about the weaknesses, failures, and ailments of human beings. We should know that GOD isn't going to hold anything against someone who is out of their mind or close to it. I'm thinking about my dear grandfather right now who served over 60 faithful years in the ministry. He was a man of kindness, compassion, and devotion to GOD until he had a series of strokes. I had never seen my grandfather angry, and I'd never heard him say anything close to vulgar language, much less profane language. I did hear and see those things before he died, and he even physically assaulted several people who he dearly loved. I know that GOD didn't hold him responsible, and neither did we. My grandfather went immediately to be with the Lord when he died, "absent from the body and present with the LORD." I have zero doubts about this.

Len, this topic has been a matter of debate for centuries, and very few ever take ALL into account when studying portions of the Holy Bible. One can go to certain portions of Scripture that appear to have bold contradictions within just several Verses or in the next Chapter. We know there aren't any contradictions in the Bible, so what we have is misunderstanding on our part. Example: "faith without works is dead." YES, it is in terms of a Christian's testimony and example before men. One can look at James and John for many seeming contradictions that aren't contradictions at all - just misunderstanding. Faith with ZERO works can still mean Salvation, and proof for that is the thief on the cross next to JESUS. The reality of the Promises of GOD in Salvation is why the Apostle Paul spent so much time in trying to explain why GOD'S Grace was NOT and is NOT a license to sin.

When it all comes down to the ultimate reality, there isn't one man or woman who deserves the Love, Grace, and Gift of GOD. This explains why the Apostle Paul also spends considerable time in explaining GOD'S Grace and what man actually deserves. We know that it isn't of works, but we could say it stronger than the Apostle Paul said it, "Men WOULD not MIGHT BOAST." SO, we are left with thanking GOD for something we could never deserve or earn. "It is NOT of ourselves.." - "It's a Gift from GOD" - no man can boast of anyone BUT CHRIST! "It was GOD who began a good work in me, and GOD will finish it." The WORK of SALVATION was finished on the Cross most perfectly by JESUS CHRIST.


I am a receiver of God's grace that far supersedes my worst sin.

Romans 5:20 NASB  The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

I am dead to sin and alive to God.

Romans 6:11 NASB  Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

I am a recipient of eternal life through Jesus Christ.

Romans 6:23 NASB  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I am free of condemnation.

Romans 8:1 NASB  Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

I am free from the vicious cycle of sin and death.

Romans 8:2 NASB  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

I am a son of God; God is spiritually my Father.

Romans 8:14-15 NASB  For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"

Galatians 3:26 NASB  For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 4:6 NASB  Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

I share in Christ's inheritance.

Romans 8:17 NASB  and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

I am protected. Who can ever be against me?

Romans 8:31 NASB  What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?

I am inseparable from God's love.

Romans 8:35 NASB  Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 6:10-17 NASB  Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. Stand firm therefore, HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, and having shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE; in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

Oh, Lord I do love reading about your grace and mercy. I love reading about Jesus' work in our lives. I love thinking about the unbroken and unbreakable promises given us by You, Almighty God, our Savior. And I definitely love reading again about the fact that when You save us, we stay saved for eternity. I could never have peace if that were not so.

Len and all,

This age-old discussion has divided the body of Christ for so long it is hard to comprehend the entire body of all the printed words.

It all began, as best I can ascertain, with the Synod held in Dordrecht in 1618-19 by the Dutch Reformed Church,  Please see:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synod_of_Dort

This POLITICAL meeting was arranged by the inheritors of Calvinism to defend their doctrines from the followers of Jacob Arminius in Holland.  Perhaps they were losing congregants, but I'm not sure.

From this interchange there has risen the old Calvinist/Arminist debate.  Both of these folks, when in the HYPER position will barely talk with one another let alone worship together.

I am pleased we seem to be having a sensible discussion hereabouts, so far.

As I am a student of forensic theology, let me ask you all this question.   

Which denomination (belief system) has the most sincere following of these two divergent theologies?

Which one has full churches each and every Sunday?

Is either of the above questions a valid way to find the truth of their beliefs?

If not, then why are so many churches almost empty but for 2 days/year?

I personally wouldn't have a clue as to the answers to the first two questions. I would say no to the third. Answering the fourth question, we are an apostate race. We choose self over God and others. And we are mistaken at thinking that if we go to church on one or both of those 2 "special" days, that our obligation to God has been met (There's that "works" thing again. Thanks for helping me prove my point.) Salvation is FREE. We do not have to...cannot...do anything to accept God's free gift of salvation. God does not hold us accountable for receiving the gift. But he does hold us (believers) accountable for our actions through the rewards of the Bema. 

BTW, I have been accused of being a Calmenian. :)

Actually this started long before the Calvinist/Arminist. This is the reason this subject is covered so extensively in the New Testament. It was having to be dealt with by the Apostles right from the very start.


Seeing as how we don't do denominations here I won't even go there.

The act of going to church does not make a person a Christian. There are many that go to church every day it is open and still have not accepted Christ as their Lord and Saviour. Yet I know some that rarely ever go to a church that are the most sincere Christians that I have seen and live a very Godly life, being in a very close relationship with Jesus.

PR,

I suspect your church is not empty and I pray the congregation is not dwindling.  However, the question is where these conditions exist, what are those leaders doing wrong, and How do we avoid those faults in our congregation.  That's what I mean by forensic theology and I still think it is worthy of consideration.  You probably have already considered this and might want to give us the benefit of your experience.

There are churches today that have large numbers in attendance that are not in the ways of the Lord. Some of these so called churches fill their pews by pandering to the flesh instead of feeding the soul. I have also seen small churches that stay small from pandering to the flesh. While I would like to see every person in this entire world attend a church I would much rather see churches, no matter how small or big, that are Godly. Do not be concerned with the numbers, but rather be concerned with the content.


2Ti 4:1  I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2Ti 4:2  Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3  For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4  And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

AMEN brother AMEN

My own Church is small but, I feed the soul as Jesus would have us do.  Psalm 66:16-17 Come and hear, all you who reverently and worshipfully fear God, and I will declare what He has done for me!  17 I cried aloud to Him; He was extolled and high praise was under my tongue.

A church where the Bible is not taught...or is not taught to be inerrant...may or may not grow in numbers. But it will NEVER, EVER grow in spiritually.

What makes a strong, vibrant, growing, healthy body is the Word of God being taught unabashedly, unashamedly, unrelentingly. I believe God's Word should be taught expositionally, verse by verse, allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture. God knew exactly what He was doing, meant exactly what He was saying, and continues to do so today through the Holy Spirit. He does not mince words. He wrote about His people, warts, pimples, and all. He is well aware of the human condition and chooses to work through it anyway because He is a patient, loving God. If we would  only take Him at His word...just believe what He says at face value...He can do so much more with and through us.

And the payoff for us is HUGE! We cannot, in this sinfilled body and mind in our wildest imaginations, perceive of the glory that awaits us in eternity. 

I owe Him. I owe Him big time. How can I not do my very best to be obedient?

Brothers,

The tags, labels, and denominations of men have become so numerous and convoluted that they mean almost nothing, or they mean something different to every person hearing them.

Anyone who really studies the Bible could care less what some man said five or six hundred years ago. The real and only truth was given about 2,000 years ago.

I agree with most of what has been said about how big or how full the brick and mortar building is. It makes no difference at all because true believers belong to a church not made with human hands, the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. Only true believers are members and membership is for eternity.

Back to brick and mortar buildings of men, size, membership, and how fancy it is means absolutely nothing. Some are little more than social clubs and it wouldn't make much difference if they started serving alcohol at the services. The opposite ends of the spectrum are:  1) those that try to please men and the world VERSUS 2) those that are only interested in pleasing GOD. The scales are beginning to tip more and more to #1, and I honestly believe that many of them do more harm than good. I spent my entire life going to a small church that is definitely near #2. People that go there love to study the Bible, and that's the primary purpose of the church for young and old. It has an address for a name, and it isn't associated with any denomination.

I find it almost humorous that many people have strong preconceptions when I say that I'm non-denominational. In fact, I've been surprised how many different meanings people come up with for this non-tag, non-label, non-denominational name. Some people conjure up all kinds of wild descriptions for this non-descriptive name.    ;D

Brothers, there won't be any of man's labels, tags, and denominations in heaven for eternity. They will all be left behind as the foolishness and vanity of man. I'm a Christian, and my favorite preachers are the writers of the Holy Bible. The message is the same as it was 2,000 years ago. The main difference I see from the modern preachers of today is they have "added to" or "taken from" the WORD OF GOD. AND, SADLY, many of the so-called Bible scholars of today aren't even saved. They teach the Bible like a great literary masterpiece instead of THE WORD OF GOD.

We live in a day where many of man's brick and mortar buildings called churches are an abomination to GOD. Many of them are in our Christian News on Christians Unite on a regular basis, and they are spoiling just about all of the tags, labels, and denominations of man. In fact, many of them are even spoiling the term, "Christian". Real Christians wouldn't tolerate what's being done in many so-called churches. Spend some time in reading our Christian News, and you'll see what I mean.

http://news.christiansunite.com/

Man has things so confused and fouled up that one almost has to give a complete "Statement Of Faith" to understand what a man or woman believes. BUT, here's something fascinating that I've learned on the forum over the years: most real Christians can sense other real Christians over a relatively short period of time by just having text conversations and fellowship. One doesn't need to hear man's laundry list that they are "1st ABC - Split from XYZ - Twice removed from DEF - and much greater than JKL" church. If you did go through the laundry list, what would you do if you found out there were three "1st ABC's in the same city and they all had different doctrines? AND, upon further investigation, you found out there were serious splits of belief inside each of the three ABC churches.

I'll just say that I give thanks that GOD'S Plan of Salvation is easy enough for a child to understand. Real Christians can and do have fellowship without dragging a truck-load of man's baggage into it. After all, we will be spending eternity together, and man's foolishness will be left behind.

By the way, for those of you who are wondering, I'm a 1st and Greater XYZ.   ;D  My beliefs are almost identical to the Statement of Faith given by Christians Unite. If someone calls me a 1st and Greater XYZ, I'll have to secretly submit that person's name for membership in the ACLU.   ;D

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 118:24 NASB  This is the day which the LORD has made; Let us rejoice and be glad in it.

Onced saved always saved

This is a difficult subject,for man is not the judge of who is saved and who is not.


There are many conditions in God's word that we seem to read over,we read past words like;When,Then,Those who,He that....
These little words placed before,within,and after a promise in God's word are very important.They are what is called qualifiers,and the fulfillment or applicability of the subject's promise hinges on the conditions being met that are stated and earmarked by these qualifiers,for example if i say to you,Come work for me today and i will pay you.Do you then sleep all day and show up at the end of the day asking for your pay?It seems that many treat God's word in such a manner.Many sleepers looking for reward.
Can we once have been saved,and then be lost?Does God's word speak of the righteous gone into unrighteousness,the good gone bad,the living condemned to death?Let's see

Ezek 18:21-26 But if the wicked will turn away from all his sins that he hath commited,and keep all my statutes,and do that which is lawful and right,he shall surely live,he shall not die
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed they shall not be mentioned unto him,in his righteousness that he hathdone he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?saith the Lord God and not that he should return from his ways and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness and committeth iniquity,and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth shall he live?All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned:in his trespass that he hath trespassed,and in his sin that he he hath sinned,in them shall he die.
25 Yet ye say,the way of the Lord is not equal.Hear now Oh house of Israel;Is not my way equal?are not your ways unequal?
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness and committeth iniquity,and dieth in them;for his iniquity that he had done shall he die.


Yes we are saved by grace,for none of us could ever deserve salvation,but you must take an active role in your salvation,you must have a working knowledge of God's written word the bible how else will you know whether or not you are being deceived?God warned us that the famine of the end time's would not be for lack of food,but that would be for the lack of understanding the true word of God(Amos 8:11-12

Oh no! The ultimate torture ....  banishment to the ACLU.

 :D :D

Hi truthtold,

Welcome to Christians Unite.


How so do you mean this?

 ;D   ;D   YES - and their boot camp is 5 years in Siberia under Sharia law. That's why most of the ACLU members have so many missing body parts.    ;D


The poor fellow above was 6'4" tall when he started the ACLU training and 3'9" when he graduated.   ;D

And the reasoning portion of the brain is the first to go.   :o :o :o :o :o

Pastor Roger, is there any indication that God hears the prayers of the unrighteous...besides their prayer to be saved, I mean?

I hope you see where I'm going with this in relation to OSAS.

PREDESTINATION VS. FREE WILL -  - k house July 12, 2006
"The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever..." - Deuteronomy 29:29

From the beginning of time, thinkers have puzzled over the paradox of fate vs. free will, or predestination vs. free choice. In theological terms, this leads to the struggle between Calvinism and Arminianism. As we explore this paradox, we find that examining the fruit of each position reveals that the River of Life seems to flow between these two extremes, and that once again, truth involves a careful balance.

At the heart of the controversies between Calvinism and Arminianism is the emphasis on the sovereignty of God by the Calvinists and on the sovereignty (free will) of man - or human responsibility - by the Arminians. Calvinism emphasizes that God is in total control of everything and that nothing can happen that He does not plan and direct, including man’s salvation. Arminianism teaches that man has free will and that God will never interrupt or take that free will away, and that God has obligated Himself to respect the free moral agency and capacity of free choice with which He created us.

Both doctrinal positions are reasonable and both have extensive Scriptures to back them up. Both are, in our opinion, both partially right and partially overextended. As Philip Schaff has put it, "Calvinism emphasized divine sovereignty and free grace; Arminianism emphasized human responsibility. The one restricts the saving grace to the elect; the other extends it to all men on the condition of faith. Both are right in what they assert; both are wrong in what they deny. If one important truth is pressed to the exclusion of another truth of equal importance, it becomes an error, and loses its hold upon the conscience. The Bible gives us a theology which is more human than Calvinism and more divine that Arminianism, and more Christian than either of them."

Certainly, the Bible does teach that God is sovereign, and that believers are predestined and elected by God to spend eternity with Him. Nowhere, however, does the Bible ever associate election with damnation. Conversely, the Scriptures teach that God elects for salvation, but that unbelievers are in hell by their own choice. Every passage of the Bible that deals with election deals with it in the context of salvation, not damnation. No one is elect for hell. The only support for such a view is human logic, not Biblical revelation (which John Calvin did teach).

The concept of total depravity is consistent with Scripture, but the doctrine of limited atonement, that Jesus did not die for the sins of the whole world, is clearly contrary to Biblical teaching. The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus died for everyone’s sins and that everyone is able to be saved if they will repent and turn to Christ. Limited atonement is a non-Biblical doctrine.

Election and predestination are Biblical doctrines. God knows everything and therefore He cannot be surprised by anything. He is beyond the constraints of mass, acceleration and gravity, therefore He is outside time. He knows, and has known from “eternity past,” who will exercise their free will to accept Him and who will reject Him. The former are “the elect” and the latter are the “non-elect.” Everyone who is not saved will have only himself to blame: God will not send anyone to hell, but many people will choose to go there by exercising their free will to reject Christ.

On the other hand, no one who is saved will be able to take any of the credit. Our salvation is entirely God’s work, and is based completely on the finished work of the Cross. We were dead in trespasses and sins, destined for hell, when God in His grace drew us to Himself, convinced us of our sin and our need for a Savior, and gave us the authority to call Jesus Lord. Is this grace, this wooing, this courtship, irresistible? No, we have free will and we can (and do) resist, even to the damnation of our souls, but God does everything short of making us automata (preprogrammed puppets) to draw us into His forever family.

Yes, I think I see where you are headed.

We know from the book of John that God does not hear sinners. Yes He is capable of hearing them but He shuts off His ears, so to speak, to them. The same would hold true of a person if they were able to lose their salvation.

Joh 9:31  Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.


We know that Jesus hears the repentant sinner and this is why He says:

 "repent ye, and believe the gospel."

Luk 13:5  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Act 3:19  Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;


We know also that God does not hear some prayers of Christians:

Jer 7:16  Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.

These were individuals that were unrepentant sinners and nonbelievers. Yet we see in 1John where we are told to pray for our brothers that are committing sins that are not unto death:

1Jo 5:16  If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

According to Psalm 51, answers to prayer can be hindered by unrepented sin even for a believer.

In short, if even Christians can experience a disruption in the efficacy of their prayer lives, can unbelievers pray rightly ever?

Jesus taught that prayer may be characterized by

    * importunity - a laying hold of God's willingness to bless (Luke 11:5-8)
    * tenacity - a persistence and certainty in praying (Luke 18:1-8)
    * humility — penitence and a sense of unworthiness (Luke 18:10-14)
    * compassion (Matt. 18:21-35)
    * simplicity (Matt. 6:5-6; Mark 12:38-40)
    * intensity and watchfulness (Mark 13:33; 14:38)
    * unity of heart and mind in the community of prayer (Matt 18:19 ff.)
    * expectancy (Mark 11:24)

Think for a moment: Can a non-Christian even for one moment pray in obedience to these traits? Or can he pray in the “name of Jesus” other than a perfunctory fashion? God does not answer the prayers of non-believers because they pray wrong prayers for the wrong reason.

It is only through the gospel advantages of adoption, the intercession of Christ on our behalf, the indwelling Holy Spirit, and many other sanctifying privileges, that Christians are able to come boldly into God’s presence to obtain mercy in times of need.

Another thing to think about here. Does God expect us to do more than He Himself is willing to do?

Luk 17:3  Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Luk 17:4  And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Brothers,

This really boils down to several very simple questions about Adam and Eve. There really isn't a paradox or anything complex except that which is created by man.

1 - ALMIGHTY GOD knew everything a quadrillion years ago, including the most minute details of animate and inanimate objects.

2 - GOD could have and did make anything HE wanted to, including man.

3 - GOD hates sin and disobedience, and HE could obviously have made man to be 100% obedient and without sin, but HE didn't.

4 - Did GOD know a quadrillion years ago that Adam and Eve would eat of the forbidden fruit?  YES

5 - Did GOD want Adam and Eve to disobey HIM and eat of the forbidden fruit?  NO

6 - Did GOD make Adam and Eve disobey HIM and eat of the forbidden fruit?  NO

7 - Did GOD give Adam and Eve an intellect capable of making choices of their own and determining right and wrong?  YES

8 - Did Adam and Eve use their own free will and free choice to disobey GOD and eat of the forbidden fruit?  YES

9 - GOD didn't make Adam and Eve eat of the forbidden fruit, nor did HE stop Adam and Eve from eating the forbidden fruit, but GOD did know a quadrillion years ago and Adam and Eve would eat of the forbidden fruit. SO, the ALL KNOWING, ALL POWERFUL, ALMIGHTY CREATOR had and has FOREKNOWLEDGE OF ALL.

Brothers, there really isn't anything complicated above. The facts above are extremely simple. Our only problem is not understanding all of the WAYS AND WHYS OF ALMIGHTY GOD. We are just simple men, part of HIS CREATION, and we aren't supposed to understand all of the WAYS AND WHYS OF OUR CREATOR.

We do know our own ways and whys pretty well. We know that we make some good decisions and some bad decisions, and many of those bad decisions are sins. We ought to know that GOD didn't force us to commit sin because HE hates sin. We also ought to know that GOD didn't prevent us from committing sin because we did sin, and GOD could easily force us to do anything HE wishes. The bottom line is real simple: GOD gave us free will to make our own choices - right or wrong. Our bad choices are completely our fault - not GOD'S.

JESUS CHRIST died on the Cross for ALL mankind. NO person genuinely wanting to accept JESUS CHRIST as Lord and Saviour will be turned away. This paragraph is the ultimate TRUTH about Salvation, and NOBODY needs to know any of man's theories to accept or reject JESUS CHRIST. We also know that GOD doesn't want any man to perish in their sins without JESUS, but that doesn't mean that HE will force anyone to accept JESUS CHRIST as Lord and Saviour. The opposite is also true: GOD will NOT force any man to reject JESUS CHRIST, nor will HE reject any man who wishes to accept JESUS CHRIST as Lord and Saviour. GOD did know quadrillion years ago how each man and woman would choose because HE is the CREATOR and HE FOREKNEW ALL!

For those who have read this far, ALMIGHTY GOD knew what you would think when you read this quadrillion yeas ago. SO, in man's way of thinking, it was your destiny to read this, and you were chosen to read this. If you already have JESUS CHRIST as your Lord and Saviour, man's arguments and theories about why you read this isn't important.    :D

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 143:8 NASB  Let me hear Your lovingkindness in the morning; For I trust in You; Teach me the way in which I should walk; For to You I lift up my soul.

Thanks, PR. That was exactly where I wanted to go. You pretty much "bottom lined" it.

And BEP, I agree 100%. And your statement about God knowing that all who are reading these posts and each person's reactions to them, is spot on. There are NO happenstances for Christians. Just divine appointments. God has for eternity known what we encounter each day. This is to God's sovereignty. And we can be thankful that God is indeed sovereign. His plans will come to pass, with or without us. He does NOT NEED us. WE NEED HIM. Desperately!

But the most beatiful part of that desperate need is the fact that He is faithful, even when we are not. He is always available and ready to meet our every need, down to the minutest detail. When we have Christ, we have want of nothing and need of nothing else. He is COMPLETE. And we are complete, totally fulfilled in Him. God and God alone can make that manifest.

What a glorious, gracious, powerful King loves us. 

I think we're getting close now folks,

It is true He gave us free will to choose to follow His Son Jesus.  If that is true, then He does not take it away when we do follow Him - we still have it, don't we?

But because He knows the end from the beginning He knows who will spend eternity with Him - right?

The problem is that we do not know all he does so we should live faithful lives, trusting Him for our physical and spiritual provisions. 

In short, we should live like Aminians and believe like Calvinists !!  We should live like we could give away what He gave us, while believing as if it cannot be lost.

The extremes of some theological reason is puzzling.

Calvinists, who deny that salvation can ever be lost, reason on the subject in a marvelous way. They tell us, that no virgin's lamp can go out; no promising harvest be choked with thorns; no branch in Christ can ever be cut off from unfruitfulness; no pardon can ever be forfeited, and no name blotted out of God's book! They insist that no salt can ever lose its savor; nobody can ever "receive the grace of God in vain"; "bury his talents"; "neglect such great salvation"; trifle away "a day of grace"; "look back" after putting his hand to the gospel plow. Nobody can "grieve the Spirit" till He is "quenched," and strives no more, nor "deny the Lord that bought them"; nor "bring upon themselves swift destruction." Nobody, or body of believers, can ever get so lukewarm that Jesus will spew them out of His mouth.


They use reams of paper to argue that if one ever got lost he was never found. John 17:12;

that if one falls, he never stood. Rom. 11:16-22 and Heb. 6:4-6;

if one was ever "cast forth," he was never in,

and "if one ever withered," he was never green. John 15:1-6;

and that "if any man draws back," it proves that he never had anything to draw back from. Heb. 10:38,39;

that if one ever "falls away into spiritual darkness," he was never enlightened. Heb 6:4-6;

that if you "again get entangled in the pollutions of the world," it shows that you never escaped. 2 Pet 2:20;

that if you "put salvation away" you never had it to put away, and if you make shipwreck of faith, there was no ship of faith there!!

In short they say: If you get it, you can't lose it; and if you lose it you never had it.

Perhaps we may agree that the truth lies in between these two extremes.

I believe the truth IS somewhere between Calvinism and Armenianism.

I believe that the truth, lies in the Bible.  Not in the doctrine of man.

Amen!

Well, I sure cannot argue with that.

The Truth always lies within the covers of our Bibles.  Both pov's would claim that - but what they do with what they read is mankind's greatest weakness.  Predetermined bias will always find Scripture to support its claims thru missinterpretations, out of context quotes, carnal motives for political power, even pretending ignorance.  These motives produce those doctrines of man and it is satan's plan for the destruction of God's church.

Paul warned long ago: "Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron..."  1 Timothy 4:1-2  NKJV

Fight the good fight, brothers.

Hello Doc,

Brother, please put that portion of Scripture in context, and you will discover what Paul was talking about. He was talking about faith in the doctrines that they were taught, not faith In JESUS CHRIST. Look at the comparison just before it and the examples right after it. Taking portions of Scripture out of context many times leads to gross misunderstanding.

You should also remember that Paul showed righteous anger in outsiders trying to mire the Church down in Jewish law again as opposed to the Gospel of the Grace of God. You will see a very plain teaching of the law immediately following that shows a contrast between Law in what a person can eat or not eat and in Grace where all made by God is good to eat. If you will remember, Paul had a great deal of trouble with Jews trying to convert his congregations back to the Law. SO, we aren't talking about loss of Salvation, rather of people harming their fellowship by departing from sound doctrine they had been taught. Several Verses before your quote and several verses after your quote should put things in perspective for you.

Some portions of Scripture require reading much more than just a few Verses before or after the quote, and some portions require ancient word study. As an example, "fall" is many times rendered stumble. Sin is a "stumble", but sin does not cause loss of Salvation for a Christian. In this case, we would be talking about following Law, Jewish Traditions, and ordinances that were not part of the Gospel of God's Grace. By the way, to help you just a little bit more - they thought that they were living in the last times. After all, the Messiah had come. I haven't been to bed yet, so I'm too tired to give you more tonight.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Galatians 2:16 NASB  nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

The question on the OSAS debate was asked of Mike Kellogg of the Moody Radio Pastor. I liked his response and must agree with him on it.

_____________

I believe that the death of Christ for my sins on the cross is a finished work, and is not a matter of “You must be born again, and again, and again.” As the hymn beautifully states, “Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe / Sin had left a crimson stain / He washed it white as snow.” By His death He saved me, in His grace He keeps me.

The truth is that when I first became a Christian, I had a difficult time with this issue too, because, frankly, I didn't always act saved, or think saved, or feel saved. It was terribly frustrating for me. But then I began to realize the truth of the Scripture: that I was saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8). God called me to Himself, not because I was living in a godly way, but because I was a sinner and needed Him, and I couldn't save myself. It wasn't good works. Titus 3:5 (KJV) says, “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.”

And if that is true, then He has made Himself responsible for keeping me by that same grace. God could and would keep me unto Himself. See Jude 1:24-25 (KJV): “Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy . . . Amen.”

That's His grace. This promise is for all Christians, those who are indwelt by the spirit of God (see 1 Cor. 6:19, 20). I guess, friend, that while some verses seem to indicate that it's possible to lose your salvation, I would lean on God's grace. Actually, worrying about eternal security and arguing about it is a moot point, if you are seeking by God's grace to glorify Him and at the same time enjoying the presence of His company.

Concentrating on being God's man or woman will cause you to walk triumphantly and securely in this old world.


AMEN!

Amen Pastor Roger!

There is NOTHING but GLORY for GOD in ALL things and NONE for man. When one looks at the HUGE list of things that are OF and BY JESUS CHRIST ALONE, we should have love and thanks for our ALL IN ALL, JESUS CHRIST! Our "quickening" (immediate translation) to and IN HIM is HIS Work. GOD began the Good Work in us, and GOD will finish that Work, even to the point of giving us a Glorified Body at His appointed time.


Love In Christ,
Tom

John 11:25 NASB  Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

Sorry to jump in so late in the conversation. The first problem you are having is the bible you are using. The NIV is the worst possible bible to use as it contains a very large amount of errors. If you are interested in studying up on this i can post links here for you to follow once i have permission to do so. The answer to your question however is YES once saved, always saved is true. Your salvation cannot be taken from you once it is obtained. I recommend using the Authorized KJV. It is the most accurate.

Hello Jenn4God,

The degrees of accuracy between various translations of the Holy Bible is a matter of opinion by men. We don't do Bible bashing here. The KJV is just another excellent translation of the ancient texts, but it is just a translation with errors. This is why people who try to seriously study the Bible still use ancient texts and language helps when studying difficult portions of Scripture. Many would disagree with you that the KJV is the most accurate, and they would be right in many portions of Scripture. However, that's not material here since we don't do Bible bashing.

We have some argument threads here about various translations of the Holy Bible, and they were a waste of time and simply made people angry. I used the KJV for over 50 years, but I now use the NASB and think it is more accurate. BUT, again, that's not material because we don't Bible bash here. When the arguments start about various translations, the weaknesses and errors of the KJV are also shown. There are quite a few excellent translations of the Holy Bible, and the KJV and NIV are only two of them.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 105:3-4 NASB  Glory in His holy name; Let the heart of those who seek the LORD be glad.  Seek the LORD and His strength; Seek His face continually.

Jenn,

Although I prefer to use the KJV myself I agree totally with what Brother Tom said. Disagreements about most Bible versions do nothing but disparage the word of God.

We are better off teaching what the word has to say to us rather than to teach Bible versions.

I wasn't bashing any bible. I was just stating that the AKJV is more accurate than the NIV. Everyone has the free will to use what bible they choose. I was just recommending that if the poster was having problems while using the NIV to try the AKJV. Sorry for the misunderstanding. :)

"This Bible is better than that Bible" are statements that conclude Bible bashing. Such statements bring into question the validity of the Bible which causes even further Bible bashing statements. It is just such statements that atheists love to see and hear. For this reason we have to be careful how and what we say.

Yes, I agree that if a person has difficulty understanding one then perhaps a cross reference may be in order. There are many people today that do not understand the proper useage of such words as thee, thou .....    But to say that one is better than another does nothing to glorify God and His word.

AMEN Pastor Roger!!

Hello Doc,

First, I'm not a Calvinist. Second, I won't argue endlessly, as there are more productive things to do. I'll end my part in this discussion by saying that someone is in serious error who believes that any power can cause GOD to break a promise already given and undo a list of things HE has already done toward those promises. I'll just mention two of many:  1) quickening (translated) into the BODY OF CHRIST;  2) SEALING the heart of the believer with THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD.

Misapplication of Scripture causes all kinds of problems, one being no assurance of Salvation and one being the doubting that GOD will fulfill HIS Promises. There are a host of other problems, but these fit this issue well. There is a long list of things that happen at the moment of Salvation, and many Promises of GOD are given at the same moment. I'm positive that GOD wants us to have 100% Assurance of Salvation, and I feel sorry for people who don't have it. I'm through arguing this, so you have the last word unless someone else wants to argue with you.

Love In Christ,
Tom


1:  Romans 3:10 NASB  as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

2:  Romans 3:23  NASB  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

3:  Romans 5:12  NASB  Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

4:  Romans 6:23  NASB  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

5:  Romans 1:18  NASB  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

6:  Romans 3:20  NASB  because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

7:  Romans 3:27  NASB  Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

8:  Romans 5:8-9  NASB  But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

9:  Romans 2:4  NASB  Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

10:  Romans 3:22  NASB  even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

11:  Romans 3:28  NASB  For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

12:  Romans 10:9  NASB  that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

13:  Romans 4:21  NASB  and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.

14:  Romans 4:24 NASB  but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,

15:  Romans 5:1  NASB  Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

16:  Romans 10:10  NASB  for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

17:  Romans 10:13  NASB  for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Spot on, BP! AMEN!

Agreed BEP.

I remember those verses which state that we are in the Fathers hands and that nothing may snatch us from it. 

I then read the arguements of a lost a salvation and thinking of how we can turn our backs on it and in essence we can leap out of the hands of the Father.  "Our leaving is not anyone snatching us out" is what they say.  But this is still placing one's self over that of God.  The Bible tells us that no one may take us.  That is NO ONE...and unless you yourself are NO ONE then you yourself cannot take yourself from the Father.  The verse does not say NO ONE but you, it just says NO ONE.

There are verses that were mentioned that have words like sealed.  You will find the word sealed listed 26 times in the KJV.  The word re-sealed is not mentioned once.  If something is sealed only once.  Everything after that is re-sealed. 

One thing to always remember when dealing with the Bible or anything else really.  The simplist explianation is usually the best and correct one.  And all other scripture when read in proper context and in light of other scripture is in support of OSAS scenario.   

Amen Brother Jerry. It's great to see you back on the forum.

Yeah been a crazy couple of weeks.  Was out of town for a week of it then on call so I was working at night, turning into a vampire and such...all the Thanksgiving stuff and just plain crazy...But I would drop in to check anything new and exciting... :)  Thanks

Hello Brother Jerry,

We missed you, and we're glad to have you back. I worked shift work for 25 years, so I know what working varied hours does to someone. I've been retired since 2001, and my body clock is still mixed up. I really enjoyed working at night. It really worked out pretty well since everyone was either at work or school while I slept, and I spent the evening with the family.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 4:19-20 NASB  And my God will supply all your needs according to His riches in glory in Christ Jesus.  Now to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

I've done a lot of those crazy hours, too. It seemed like I would just get used to one shift and then would get changed to another just to get changed back again. It made for some interesting times.

I would be interested to hear your explanation of Hebrews 3 vs 1, "Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the apostle and high priest of our confession, Jesus Christ."

I do not doubt that this was written to Hebrews but, are you saying that there were no saved Hebrews? It makes more sense that this letter was written to Hebrews who believed in Jesus Christ. That being true it makes nonsense of suggesting that it was written to the unsaved.

Notice they are called "Holy brethren" and "partakers of the heavenly calling". Can they be partakers if they are unsaved? Would you call them brethren since those who are brethren believe?

I actually love this topic because it brings out the difficulty we have with our doctrines meeting our faith.

Consider those who condemn such as believe once saved always saved. Is it not true that you live your life according to this hope? You must or you condemn yourselves. I, for one know that sin can periodically get the better of me. Do I not still expect to be saved? However, if I believe that one is not held securely in God's hand, what hope have I?

For those who use this doctrine as a means to throw aside all caution, how do you make your lascivious lifestyle measure up to the teaching of the apostles? Consider Paul's own words, "Shall we continue to sin that grace may abound?" Who forbids? Paul says, "God forbid!" (See Romans 6.)

Let us all consider the security of our faith. Did not Jesus say, "Except a man is born again he cannot enter the kingdom of God"? I was born into a family and, as long as I live I remain a member of that family. Since I have been born a child of God how can I not be a child of God? Can parents really disown their children or, children their parents? Either you are born into a family or you are not. It cannot be any other way except it is by adoption. Even in adoption the choice is the parent's, not the child's.

But to those of you who have not considered the privelege of this birthright let me take you to Esau who sold his birthright for the pleasures that don't last. Jesus said, "Store your treasures in heaven." Have you sold your birthright for the pleasures of sin, denying even the Lord Jesus who bought you? Remember, it says of Esau that he could find no place of repentance - though he sought it with tears. When you see this example - given to us so that we might learn by example - it is easy to understand why Hebrews says, "It is impossible to renew such a one to repentance." Will you harden your heart till there is no longer any place you might find repentance?

You are secure as long as you don't refuse the hand that saved you. But, how can you remain safe if you do?

We all need this parental security so that we need not fear [God has not given us a spirit of fear but of adoption by which we cry, Abba! Abba! Let us come boldly before the throne of grace to find the help we need] but we also need to fear becoming as the prodigal and preferring the "steak on the plate while we wait" rather than the "pie in the sky when we die".

God bless you all.

First off Kerrylou.  Welcome to the CU forums.  And from reading your post I look forward to more discussions in the future.

And let me say also Amen to the rest of your post.

As to your reply to me, let me address a couple of points.

Quite honestly I would say that there ARE no saved Jews.  If they are Jewish then they are not Christian and thus not saved. :)

Now you started off looking at Hebrews 3:1.  But lets get things in context and take a look even further back at Hebrews 1 and 2.

Hebrews 1:1 "God, who at sundrey times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets" 
This verse lets us know that we are speaking to a group of people of Jewish decent.  (and I do not think we are in disagreement that the epistle was directed to Hebrews/Jews).

Now the bulk of Hebrews 1 is setting up how much bigger Jesus is than anything ever brought forth before.  Jesus is "heir of all", "the brightness of his glory".  We are shown all the things that the Hebrews know of God, and were told of the Messiah. 

Then in Chapter 2 the author states "we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard..." The author equates himself with the readers.  Granted this could be either as bretheren in Christ or as considering Jewish heritage.  But the things we have heard is referencing the old teachings and ideals that were talked about in the previous chapter.  So that narrows it down to talking about the Jewish aspect of things.

And the author continues to talk about how the Jewish faith has been shown all along what is to be Christ.  "For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast", "which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord", "bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders",

Look down at Hebrews 2:11 "For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren."  Notice the perspective is not one of inclusion.  The reader is placed outside looking in at Jesus and whome He calls brethren.

Further down is an appeal to the Hebrew family importance when the author mentions in verse 16 that Jesus was of the seed of Abraham.  This is not important to Christians of any sort.  But is dramatically important to the Hebrew faith where family heritage is vital.

Now we get to Chapter 3.  In verse 1 take a look as you had pointed out.
"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling"
There is a couple of things that stand out in this verse.  First is the adjectives used such as "holy", the author seperates out these brethren from the use anywhere else.  The priests considered themselves holy, the practicing jews considered themselves holy.  Even as he continue with the things that would be important to Hebrew people.  Even with OT references.  And references to Moses and the time spent in the wilderness.

Now the Hebrews were in the living God, before Jesus came.  Look at verse 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God"  And go down to verses 14-15"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation" And more references to the time of 40 years in the wilderness.  Until ending in verse 19 "So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief"

Which wraps up chapters 1 through 3 in which the reader was talking of how the Jews were the holy people and they were with the living God.  And that they were God's chosen people.  They were the heirs to salvation in that it was their job to pass along the word of God to the world.  But we see that in the end if they do not believe in Jesus, as the author pointed out they have to listen to what God has been saying all along, then they will be like those that failed to believe in the wilderness and they will be "whose carcases fell in the wilderness"

I think that when clearly put in the context of the rest of the epistle and then with the rest of the Bible itself it becomes quite clear who the target of the epistle was unsaved Jewish people.  And that when put into that light the verse used by the "losing salvation" crowd become invalid.

I hope that helps out in explaining where I come from as far as looking at Hebrews.

Again welcome to the forum

I for one love those shift hours...lol. I work 3:30 pm to 2:00 AM on monday thru thursday....so i know EXACTLY how crazy hours can be. Plus taking care of my wife, my home, and bills takes up the rest of my time, but i wouldn't have it any other way, because I can take care of my wife :). Anyways, hey to all who have been missing me or wondering where i've been at, just been working like crazy and I wanted to drop in and wish you all a MERRY CHRISTMAS!!! Cya.

Coram Deo,
Joshua

Hi Joshua,

It's great to see you take a few to say hi. Wishing you and your family a Merry Christmas also.

I believe the "once saved always saved" is used as an excuse by many, without constantly considering what comes with the cost of Salvation--for all that Jesus did for us in order for us to receive eternal Salvation! Yes, you are saved when you accept Jesus in your life, but you also must continue to repent from sin, and work eagerly and without hesitation to follow His steps, constantly seeking His Face.

Yes, we are saved--but we must constantly stay in His Light. We sin on a daily basis, and we need to always repent. Salvation comes with a price--Jesus paid for it for us. But we also must do as He tells us to do, constantly seeking Him in all we do.

Does that make sense? I haven't had a lot of coffee yet!

I somewhat agree with you sister. It is because we love Him that we will repent and do as He tells us. Not a requirement of salvation but because we are humbled in knowing that we are not perfect, that we need Him daily and need to follow in His footsteps.

Hello Brother Joshua,

I'm late in getting to reply because I've been out of state visiting my children and grandchildren. We had a wonderful time in the LORD, and I hope that you did also. Please do drop by more often and let us know how you're doing.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Matthew 5:6 NASB  "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

Hello Kelly4Jesus,

Plainly and bluntly, Christians must know that Salvation is a GIFT from GOD. If someone wishes to associate "Payment" with Salvation, the entire Payment was made by JESUS CHRIST on the CROSS. Man has nothing worthy for payment, and it would be an insult to JESUS CHRIST to think that we did. It would also be an insult to GOD to think that we work for our own Salvation, as that is something we can never earn or deserve. JESUS CHRIST was and is the ONLY PERFECT SACRIFICE. It is the vanity of man to think that he or she has something or can do something for our Salvation. It wouldn't be a GIFT if man had to work for it. We would also be saying that the WORK of JESUS CHRIST wasn't PERFECT and FINISHED on the CROSS. That's a horrible error to make.

What happens after Salvation is what we should be talking about. There is a quantity and quality of fellowship with JESUS with what we do or don't do. There is also a "JOY" that can be made more complete with what we do or don't do. Our good works are only judged as GOOD if they come from hearts of love and appreciation. If they are for payment, self-recognition, or other selfish reasons, they are burned up as worthless. Our good works will be judged for REWARDS - BUT NOT for Salvation. ONLY ONE WORK is good enough and acceptable enough for SALVATION, and that WORK was DONE PERFECTLY AND COMPLETELY ONLY BY JESUS CHRIST ON THE CROSS. It had to be a GIFT because we HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING worthy to offer, do, or not do.

For the same reasons as above, it is foolishness for mankind to go about searching for or trying to establish their own righteousness. There are none righteous, and the man or woman who thinks they have any righteousness of their own are fools. The ONLY righteousness we have is yielding to the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST. HE imputes some of HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS to our account. Along the same lines, we don't make ourselves fit for anything, holy, or acceptable. ALL of this WORK is the EXCLUSIVE WORK of JESUS CHRIST! Our part is the acceptance of GOD'S GIFTS and partaking of the spiritual riches that HE has laid out before us. EVERY GOOD THING THAT WE HAVE COMES FROM GOD - NOT OURSELVES!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:26-27 NASB  In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Hello all. Great discussion. I love this subject.

Pardon me if this has been brought up and I overlooked it in my perusal of the thread, but I think the "born again" concept has to be considered. I believe that John 1:12-13 indicate that rebirth happens at the point of belief. If this is the case, then to lose one's salvation would seem to require being unborn and further, recovery from this condition would require being born again, again.

I don't think this happens. "That which is born of Spirit is spirit" is an irrevocable thing in my view. I know of nothing that would indicate that regeneration can be discarded or reversed.

Hello Txpiper,

I see that you are new, so WELCOME!


I look forward to reading your posts and having fellowship with you.

I believe there are a large number of things that happen at the moment of Salvation, and none of them can be undone. We must remember that real Salvation involves the Promises of ALMIGHTY GOD, and GOD never breaks a Promise. HE is ever FAITHFUL!

A full study of all the wonderful things that happen at the moment of Salvation would be beautiful and lengthy. The Key Events all involve the works of JESUS CHRIST - not man. JESUS CHRIST makes us fit and acceptable for our Promised Inheritance, and HE never fails. HE further tells us that no power can pluck us out of HIS Hand.

I am convinced that GOD wanted us to have 100% assurance of Salvation so we can live Victorious in JESUS. Our Confidence and Faith is in HIM - not ourselves.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:14-15 NASB  For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"

HI! I agree with the "once saved, always saved". To me, to think you could lose your salvation is saying that there is a higher power that can take it away. I think we all know that there is not anything more powerful than the Lord, Himself.  Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.(KJV)

to txpiper,



I wonder why most people think that this event doesn't include such life-changing power (in order to become the sons of God) that it is by no means (as some seem to think) a secret or quiet occurance?

Jesus said: You must be born again!
There is no way around this!  It's not an option!  We all must be if we're going to be saved!

Therefore we have to define what "Salvation" means in the light of the Gospel.

What happens when a man is born again? -
 
1 Peter 1:8  Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

If the above scripture is true to you personally, then He has revealed Himself to you in your spirit, and you can't wait for Christ, for your Love to appear in Person.  You're chomping at the bit because you now love Him so much that all of your rejoicing is over Him with unspeakable joy and one that is full of the glory of God.  You're no longer the same - and never will be - because now you Know The Truth, and The Truth has made you Free!

The Spirit, through Paul, says it like this:

2 Corinthians 5:17-18  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.  And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Unless one becomes a NEW CREATURE (BORN AGAIN) IN Christ then how can he be saved?
To become Born Again is to be made Anew, of God, of above!

Galatians 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Salvation is this - "The forgiveness of sins, as well as victory over them!"  Being saved FROM our sins, as well as our being saved TO God!  Both are necessary if one is to believe that they are truly saved.

Otherwise - James 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

God didn't send His Son to merely die for our sins thus forgive them!!!
His Son was also raised from the dead in order for us to get victory of them, by making us a Whole New Creature "Us IN Him and He IN US", one whose heart is now after God.

I have a page on my site that may interest you...
http://www.intergate.com/~subi/born.htm

Becoming "A New Man" after God's own heart, is what Salvation is all about!  Then you can say - OSAS!

May the Lord bless you,
Biff

Amen Bj875 and Biff!

Since this is somewhat involved with this subject, I thought I'd bring it up: Hebrews 6:4-6.

Some have said that this is a hypothetical passage because the Bible says elsewhere that "They went from us, but the truth is they never belonged to us, for if they belonged to us, they would've remained with us"... and thus, they were never truly saved anyway.

But others have said that the "heavenly gift" mentioned in Hebrews 6:4-6 is enlightment, and thus if they "shrug off" that enlightment long enough, they can't return.

I'm personally very confused about this passage, as I'm sure many others are... but what is everyone else's opinions?

Hello Brad,

If I remember correctly, this passage has already been explained to you by Pastor Roger. Regardless, you are in a state of confusion yourself right now and aren't in a position to be advising others. Deal with your own problems first.

The audience were Hebrews, and many of them had been devout Jews, many very Godly people who tried hard under the Law. The Law was a schoolmaster drawing people to a knowledge of sin and a need of repentance. The Old Testament ways were very legalistic, involved rituals, sacrifices, and all kinds of things that were not part of what JESUS CHRIST ushered in. In fact, the Jews' most Holy Men were no longer Holy, and JESUS CHRIST took their place. The sacrifices and rituals were no longer sufficient because they were just a shadow of what was to come - JESUS CHRIST. It was prophesied that JESUS CHRIST would come in the Old Testament, and HE did come exactly as prophesied. However, JESUS CHRIST was rejected by the majority of HIS Own Chosen people, Israel. They were given the truth, and they were even given signs and wonders to help them believe, but many of them still rejected JESUS CHRIST. Let's introduce part of your confusion. JESUS CHRIST was the anointed KING OF ISRAEL and was to usher in the Kingdom Age. JESUS CHRIST was the MESSIAH, but they rejected him. As a result, the devout Jews were just as lost as the heathen that they were forbidden to interact with. It does get more difficult from here, and JESUS CHRIST will claim His Rightful Throne as KING. HE will rule and reign over the earth from the Throne of David in Jerusalem for 1,000 years. This is called the Kingdom Age or the Millennial Kingdom. Israel will be restored at GOD'S appointed time, and JESUS CHRIST will indeed be their KING. For Christians, JESUS CHRIST is already the KING OF KINGS and we are part of HIS Heavenly Kingdom. There will also be an earthly Kingdom yet to come. I hope you understand now why you are NOT ready for this.

Brad, you need to go back to the basics, as you have already been advised many times here on the forum by Christians trying to help you. You are certainly not in a position to be trying to advise others when you are in such a state of chaos yourself. Hebrews is a study for mature Christians with heavy understanding of the Old Testament and Israel. You don't fit into that category and are still wrestling with the very beginning. So, please take the advise already given to you by many trying to help you. Start at the beginning. I doubt that you are a devout Jew still awaiting the arrival of the Messiah, so please stay away from the portions of Scripture that you are not ready for.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Galatians 2:20 NASB  "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

brad5,

You have been given a detailed answer on Hebrews. Yet you still keep bringing it up. It was suggested that you read Ephesians, you have been asked if you have read it yet but you have ignored that question and have gone back to posting on Hebrews again.

Now I am going to ask the question again .... Have you read the portion in Ephesians that was given to you?

Ah, yes. I have read Ephesians 2.

Sorry, I'm a worry-wort... the aforementioned Hebrews verse just bothers me.

Since you have now read Eph 2 then tell me what you have learned on this subject from there.

You know what I love about this forum?  You can go away, and come back and find people still debating vociferously!!!   :D ;D  Seriously, I have two comments:


Comment Number 1:


Hebrews 6:4-6 says what it says in the context in which it says it.  Let me 'splain.   :)  The problem is when we try to apply New Testament Nouthetic to Old Testament Ensample.  That is to say, we try and apply the teaching of salvation as expounded upon in the NT to an OT passage.  Remember, "these things were written for our ensample."  Hebrews was written to the Hebrews, specifically relating the Old Testament account of how the Hebrews failed to believe that God would give them the victory in taking the Promise Land.  To say that this passage teaches that you can lose your salvation as a New Testament believer from this Old Testament ensample, is to say that for the OT Hebrew who failed to receive the reward of the Promise Land because of their disbelief, failed to be saved.  Hence, Moses is burning in Hell, along with all of those who didn't go into the Land.  You simply can't interpret a passage one way and not the other.  They failed to believe that God would give them the victory in the Land He'd already given them.  If we read this passage, as it was intended in our day and age of the New Testament Church, then if we fail to believe that God will give us the victory in the life He bought with His blood, and continue in our sin, then it is impossible to bring us back to repentance.  Can this happen to a believer.  I believe so.  Does this mean God takes back what He died to provide for him?  I cannot believe, from my understanding of this passage and every thing Brother Tom, Roger and Joshua have so eloquently related from God's word, that God would take back His gift.  If this passage means we can lose our salvation, then salvation takes many forms, in many ways, in different times, and is suspect.  I do NOT believe that God's word in any way shape or form gives this impression. 

Salvation is and always has been by grace through faith.  It comes from believing God.  Most of the Hebrews had believed God in regards to their salvation.  This choice wasn't salvific in nature.  Rather, it was choice of a direction to go in life.  Into the Promised Land and victory, or to stay in the desert and die.  They chose the desert.  God gives the New Testament believer the same choice: to overcome this world and gain the crown of life, or to stay in the desert and die.  If we chose to overcome, we gain the reward of the crown.  Had they entered the Promised Land, they'd have gained the reward of victory and possession of that land.  If we chose the desert, it is impossible to repent.  Jesus brought us to Himself by the cross.  If we turn to the desert, He's not going to die again just to make us repent.  We, like the Hebrews of old, will just stay in the desert and die.  We, like the Hebrews of old have lost the reward, but not the relationship God gave us.

Comment Number 2:

Joshua got married?!  When?  To WHO?  And more importantly...WHEN?????!!!!!   ;D :D  Congrats Dude!   :) ;)

Amen Brother Kevin!

Hebrews is an incredibly beautiful book when someone understands the massive contrast it makes between Moses and JESUS CHRIST. Moses was just a shadow of what was yet to come, and the ABSOLUTE REALITY OF THAT SHADOW IS JESUS CHRIST. The shadow is replaced by REALITY, OUR LIVING LORD AND SAVIOUR WHO DIED FOR US.

Brother, we've had several on the forum recently who were really hurting because of confusion with Hebrews. It appears that the devil sometimes uses Hebrews to convince people that they can't be saved or they can't be forgiven because of some sin in their lives. When the real truth of Hebrews is understood, a horrible burden is lifted and people then know that the Perfect Sacrifice of JESUS CHRIST on the Cross is our Salvation, and HIS Blood washes our sins away.


Love In Christ,
Tom

AMEN!  Hebrews warrants a good in depth study by every believer.  It is full of warnings.  But, oddly enough, it either makes you wrongfully fearful, or wonderfully joyful!

Allinall,

I don't know who that quote was from, but here is a lengthly (sorry) from an  exegete I really appreciate.  He died this year and I will miss his works. There are many of his NT expository books already published and I recommend  them all - inall.


Expositors Bible Commentary - Leon Morris, Principal, Ridley College, Melbourne

 The writer proceeds to underline the seriousness of apostasy from the Christian faith and, indeed, of any failure to make progress. He does this by pointing to the impossibility of making a second beginning. It is impossible for a Christian to stand still. He either progresses in the faith or slips back. And slipping back is serious; it can mean cutting oneself off from the blessings God offers. The writer is not questioning the perseverance of the saints. As he has done before, he is insisting that only those who continue in the Christian way are the saints.

4 "For" (gar, omitted in NIV) indicates the reasonableness of what follows: Had they really fallen away, there would be no point in talking to them. Some see in the reference to being "enlightened" a glance at baptism, for this verb was often used of baptism in the second century. But it is not attested as early as this, and so it is better to interpret the term in the light of the general usage whereby those admitted to the Christian faith are brought to that light that is "the light of the world" (John 8:12; cf. 2Cor 4:6; 2 Peter 1:19). To abandon the gospel would be to sin against the light they had received.
    "The heavenly gift" is not closely defined. Some interpret it as the holy communion, though there seems little reason for this. It would fit well with the verb "tasted," but this verb can be used metaphorically; so the point proves little. The word "gift" (dorea) points to freeness but could be used of any one of a variety of gifts. The thought is of God's good gift and we cannot be more precise than this. The Holy Spirit is active among all believers and for that matter to some extent beyond the church, in his work of "common grace." It is clear that some activity of the Spirit is in mind. Yet once more our author does not define it closely.

5 The people in question have "tasted* the goodness of the word of God." While some limit this to the gospel, there seems to be no need and no point in doing this. Any word that God has spoken is a good gift to men, and those the writer has in mind here have come to hear something of God's word to men. They have also experienced something of "the powers of the coming age." The age to come is normally the Messianic Age, and the thought is that powers proper to the coming Messianic Age are in some sense realized now for God's people. "Powers" indicates that that age puts at men's disposal powers they do not have of themselves.   *(DCW note - “Tasted” used of Jesus in Heb 2:9  =  “truly experienced”)

6 "If they fall away" means "fall away from Christianity." The verb parapipto is found only here in the NT, and its meaning is clear. The writer is envisaging people who have been numbered among the followers of Christ but now leave that company. Such cannot be brought back to repentance. Notice that he does not say "cannot be forgiven" or "cannot be restored to salvation" or the like. It is repentance that is in mind, and the writer says that it is impossible for these people to repent. This might mean that the repentance that involves leaving a whole way of life to embrace the Christian way is unique. In the nature of the case, it cannot be repeated. There is no putting the clock back. But it seems more likely that the reference is to a repentance that means leaving the backsliding into which the person has fallen. He cannot bring himself to this repentance. The marginal reading "while they are crucifying the Son of God" is attractive, but in the end it really amounts to a truism and scarcely seems adequate. The tense, however, does convey the idea of a continuing attitude.
    It is probable that we should take the verb rendered "are crucifying ... all over again" (anastaurountas) simply as "crucifying." Elsewhere it seems always to have this meaning. The author is saying that those who deny Christ in this way are really taking their stand among those who crucified Jesus. In heart and mind they make themselves one with those who put him to death on the cross at Calvary. Heautois ("to themselves"; NIV, "to their loss") points to this inward attitude. The final words of v. 6 stress what this attitude means.
    There has been much discussion of the significance of this passage. Some think that the author is speaking about genuine Christians who fall away and that he denies that they may ever come back. This view sets the writer of the epistle in contradiction with other NT writers for whom it is clear that the perseverance of the saints is something that comes from God and not from their own best efforts (e.g., John 6:37; 10:27-29). Others think that the case is purely hypothetical. Because the writer does not say that this has ever happened, they infer that it never could really happen and that to put it this way makes the warning more impressive. But unless the writer is speaking of something that could really happen, it is not a warning about anything. Granted, he does not say that anyone has apostatized in this way, nevertheless, he surely means that someone could, and he does not want his readers to do so. A third possibility is that the writer is talking about what looks very much like the real thing but lacks something. The case of Simon Magus springs to mind. He is said to have believed, to have been baptized, and to have continued with Philip (Acts 8:13). Presumably he shared in the laying on of hands and the gift given by it. Yet after all this Peter could say to him, "Your heart is not right before God....you are full of bitterness and captive to sin" (Acts 8:21-23). The writer is saying that when people have entered into the Christian experience far enough to know what it is all about and have then turned away, then, as far as they themselves are concerned, they are crucifying Christ. In that state they cannot repent.


*footnote  6   In the verb anastauro÷ (anastauroo) the prefix ana (ana) is usually taken in the sense of "up," "to lift up on a cross." In other compounds ana sometimes signifies "again," and this is why some take the verb here to mean recrucify. But as this sense is not attested elsewhere it seems better to take it as "crucify."

7 The process is illustrated from agriculture. There is land that frequently drinks in rain and as a result brings forth a crop. The rain comes first. The land does not produce the crop of itself. The spiritual parallel should not be overlooked. The word translated "a crop" (botane) is a general term for herbage; it does not mean any specific crop. "Useful to those for whom it is farmed" means that the beneficiaries are people in general and not only those who actually work on the farm. This land, then, receives God's blessing.

8 We should not miss the point that this is the same land as in v. 7. We should probably place a comma at the end of v. 7 and proceed thus: "but if it produces...." or "but when it produces...." The reference to producing "thorns and thistles" reminds us inevitably of the curse of Genesis 3:17 ff.--a curse on that very creation of which it had been said, "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good" (Gen 1:31). This land then, producing only what is worthless, awaits the curse. "Is in danger of being cursed" might give the impression that the land came close to being cursed but just escaped. The author seems rather to be saying that at the moment of which he speaks the curse has not yet fallen, certain though it is. Such a field in the end "will be burned." Some commentators think the writer knew little of agriculture, for the burning of the field was not a curse but rather a source of blessing as it got rid of the weeds and so prepared for a good crop. But whatever his knowledge of farming, he had a valid point. Land that produced nothing but weeds faced nothing but fire. The warning to professing Christians whose lives produce only the equivalent of weeds is plain.

Verification from another source:

Heb 6:4
[And have tasted] To "taste" of a thing means, according to the usage in the Scriptures, to "experience," or to "understand" it. The expression is derived from the fact that the "taste" is one of the means by which we ascertain the nature or quality of an object; compare Matt 16:28; John 8:51; Heb 2:9. The proper idea here is, that they had "experienced" the heavenly gift, or had learned its nature.
(from Barnes' Notes, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1997 by Biblesoft)

Hello Doc,

We can agree to disagree, and that's what I must do. I don't think that the quoted material you posted is even close. Commentary like that is what's causing so many problems and confusion. Brother, I won't debate it, but I do plan to post a series on Hebrews that will answer these questions. I hope you don't take this in a personal way, but I will state with certainty that the commentary is wrong. There are many commentaries that people depend on that are totally wrong, and that's just one reason why the Bible is and should be our ultimate source.

We hope to start soon, and I think that the Bible will speak bluntly for itself. Again, please don't take this in a personal way.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Colossians 3:15-16 NASB  Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful. Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

I would have to agree with BEP on that one.  There are a couple of key phrases in those verses that let you know exactly what it is that is being talked about.  Let me go ahead and pull up the verses here so we have them for reference


One of the key verses is in verse 4.  "have tasted of the heavenly gift"  This speaks of a people who have had a taste of what God has to offer.  We CANNOT limit our thinking to just that of Christians because you have to remember that the Hebrews had also tasted of the heavenly gift.  They were "enlightened" as to God's ways.  They were "partakers" of the blessings that God has to offer.  Could this be speaking only of Christians?  Sure however, it cannot be limited to speaking strictly of Christians because this verse could also apply to Hebrews as well. 

Another important phrase is in verse 6 "they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh" is speaking of crucifying Jesus a second time.  We have to take a look at what the Bible says about being crucified.

Some verses throughout that refer to crucifying and such.  One must remember what Pilate said to the Jews and their response. 
Look at John 19:15 "But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar. "
Here Pilate asks the Jews if they are asking him to crucify their (the Jews) king?  At which time they respond that Jesus was not their king but that Ceasar was their king.  These people who had tasted of the heavenly gift denied that Jesus was their king. 
Now take a look over at Acts 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. "
Let all of Israel know that God had sent Jesus, the same Christ they had been looking for, Israels Lord and Christ, and they crucified Him.

Paul expands upon what Jesus is to the Jews in  1 Corinthians 1:23  "But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;"
Paul lets us know that for the Greek (Gentile, the world) Jesus is pure foolishness....that the things of God are silly...there is pure rejection from the world for Jesus.  But to the Jew Jesus is the stumbling block.  Jesus is a stumbling block for the Jews because they did not see the Messiah that God had sent for them, the one promised of old.  Paul knew the OT and references possibly  Jeremiah 18:15   "Because my people hath forgotten me, they have burned incense to vanity, and they have caused them to stumble in their ways from the ancient paths, to walk in paths, in a way not cast up; "  Paul also reinforces this "stumbling" later in  Romans 9:32   "Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;" In which Paul speaks of how the Jews sought the glory of God by the works of the law and not by acts of faith.  They stumbled at the stumblingstone of faith which is manifest in Jesus.

Let us also take a look at 1 Peter Chapter 2 verses 6-8 "Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.  Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. "
We see that Jesus is referred to as the corner stone and becomes a stumbling stone to those which stumble at the word, being disobedient.  Note that it says here "whereunto also they were appointed"  This is in reference to the Jews who were appointed, they had the heavenly gift and were tasters of the glory.  But they stumbled.

So through all of this we come back to where Hebrews left off.  We know that Jesus was crucified once and that He cannot be crucified a second time.  Although we often will talk about metaphorically that when we sin we may as well hit the nail ourselves.  Jesus was forseen by the Jews and His story fortold to those that were in God's graces, the Jews.  For the nation of Israel to move forward as a nation they would have to have their savior come.  Well since Jesus has already come they missed the boat.  In order for their savior to come it would mean that Jesus would have to come again and be crucified again....which ain't going to happen.  So the nation of Israel, although still God's people, have stumbled upon the cornerstone they were promised and they chose Ceaser as their king instead of Lord Christ. 

This set of verses is really simple to interpret and there was no need at all to go into any great length even as little as I have.  You must always interpret more complex verses in light of the simpler verses.  And there are far too many verses out there that point clearly to salvation being "eternity" and lasting "forever".  And with those then this verse cannot contradict those and must not be in reference to a Christian losing salvation but a nation of God's chosen people that were "enlightened" in the glory of God but stumbled at Christ and their only hope would be to have Christ crucified again.

Amen Brother Jerry. Very well said.

It's great to see you brother.

Thank you.  Been another crazy couple of weeks....and my computer HDD died so I spent a couple of days getting everything rebuilt...and no offense to CU...but there were many other things to attempt to recover from the HDD than my login information and such :)

I'm sorry to hear about your computer problems but glad you're back here.

Doc,

Thank you for posting that lengthy portion of the commentary!  I, like Brother Tom, will have to agree to disagree with you.  As a side thought...it amazes me what "the scholars" say and how often we swallow it hook, line and sinker.  No Brother, I'm not referring to you!   ;)  I'm thinking more of myself and those with whom I go to church.  Whenever these topics are breached, we're all so ready to spout off what someone else said about the topic.  Have we come so far to be knocked so far back?  Doesn't the same Spirit that taught those men also teach us?

In this specific passage, I was aware of only 2 points of view.  I've come to learn that there are 4 such viewpoints.  I also figured that out after I developed my own understanding of what's being taught in this passage through prayerful study.  Uniquely, I struggled for years trying to understand it.  And, through the years, I have grasped, what I believe to be, the proper understanding - with room for improvement.   :)  I think it does us all good to put the commentaries away some times, and get down with our knees on the floor, our hearts and minds in His Word, and let HIM teach us.  Just a thought...

Thanks again Brother for taking the time to post!

Tom,

Brother,  I can't wait to read your study!  :)

First, Amen Brothers!

Brother Kevin, the last thing on my mind about Hebrews is to try and show someone how smart I am. We've had at least 4 people in just the last couple of weeks who were actually suffering with their misunderstanding of Hebrews. I really don't understand how all of these Hebrews problems hit at once, but I feel led to help the people who are agonizing about they can't be saved or they can't be forgiven because of confusion from Hebrews.

I know that Pastor Roger and I were able to help a man and his wife, and we might have helped at least one other some, but I feel led to put these things to rest and try to help folks understand the common sense things that were happening in Hebrews that put everything into perfect perspective. I started looking for what was causing all the confusion when we had so many people at once who were really hurting because of confusion with Hebrews. What I found was several fairly well-known commentaries where the writer didn't have the first clue about Hebrews. I say this because there wasn't even a mention of Jews, Israel, the Old Covenant, and the focus and purpose for Hebrews. I'll simply say that I was shocked and amazed that there was so much false material out there about Hebrews. People would be much better off by just having the Bible and forgetting about trusting someone who wrote a commentary. The Holy Bible is Inspired by GOD, and the commentaries are NOT. I spent several days just trying to figure out how writers of several commentaries completely missed the contrasts between Law and Grace and the contrast between blood sacrifices of animals versus the HOLY and PERFECT BLOOD OF JESUS. This seems to jump off the pages of Hebrews, so I don't have a clue how anyone could try to disassociate Hebrews with Jews, Moses, the Law, Levitical Priests versus the High Priest of JESUS, rituals versus REALITY, and the list goes on and on.

Brother Kevin, I'm really very sad that the devil appears to be using Hebrews to convince people that they are too bad to be saved or they've done something so horrible that they can't be forgiven. BUT, it appears this is happening with quite a few people who are really wanting to come to CHRIST, but they think they have already been rejected because of some gross misunderstanding of Hebrews. I want to help these people with the TRUTH, and that is my only motive.

Brother, I have a mass of notes I'm organizing now. I hope this is started in the next few days, and I'll holler at you.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Galatians 3:11 NASB  Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Amen to all and BEP I look forward to that as well.  Never struggled with the meanings but more with the delivery of the true and proper meaning.  I have noticed that about commentaries as well and have even run across some that are just too off the wall to even consider.  (Even some of my own early ones were that way :)  )

But I think we will all look forward to reading them. 

And the only advice I have to anyone who stumbles with Hebrews is to study the rest of the Bible and put the seemingly more complex verses of Hebrews in context with the simpler verses in other books.  One cannot contradict the other.  And if you have a verse that simply states and orange is an orange then the verse that appears to possibly say an orange is an apple is being interpreted incorrectly.

Amen Brother Jerry!

You hit the nail on the head - there are no contradictions in the Holy Bible. If someone finds what appears to be a contradiction, it's because of misunderstanding. The answer is usually found in the context, the audience, the purpose, the time frame, and Biblical history.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 17:11 NASB  "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.

Brother the only contradictions, is mans failure to understand the Bible.  The Word of God, in the Bible is perfect.

Brother,

Can't hide intelligience - God wrought or otherwise.   :)  You go dawg!   ;D   I feel the same way.   I come back and I see this issue all over the place.  I agree that it needs to be dealt with.  I'll be praying for you in your study Brother as you do so. 

Hebrews is a beautiful book, full of hope and God's grace.  For the O.T. Hebrew, who sacrificed yearly, sometimes more than yearly, a perfect sacrifice, once for all is exactly what they were longing to see come.  Not all understood.  What a blessing to them to read those words!  What's more?  Jesus, Who suffered in all points yet without sin, not only knows what is needed to live a victorious life, but knows what the struggle to do so is like.  He helps us, not as some distant omnipotent Deity, but as a Person, beside me, understanding what I'm going through and what I need to get through it, and offering that provision as only an omnipotent Deity can. 

I'll pray that the folks being crushed by this book begin to understand it better.   :)

His,

Kevin

Amen!

Amen Bro!  Of course, we understand that we don't agree on this matter, and that I'm right and you're wrong.   ;D  Seriously Brother, you spoke truth here.  We arrive at different conclusions, but I count you as no less than a loved Brother in Christ.   :)

His,

Kevin

Christian Greetings, Brothers,

I too am looking forward to the CU study of Hebrews on this MB.

Many years ago when I taught a Bible study on this book, I undertook to read every exegetical publication I could find - 65 in all - at a Bible school close by.  This school was not a denominational one so their library was well balanced in all denominational leanings, and I think you all know what I mean.

Some very interesting results came from this study, the least of which was that whatever denominational position one chose to make from this great book, the opposite could be made by another one.  Occasionally this was accomplished by twisting the Greek language, but usually it was done by ignoring contrary verses altogether.  I find this problem where ever I go in commentaries, which will come as no surprise to many of you here on this board.

My Bible study of His Holy Word is a very personal, heartfelt and Spirit directed one supplemented commentaries - not dictated by them.  Those men writing those tomes spent their entire lives delving into Holy Writ and have an enormous educational advantage over an aging medical peddler like me.  At the same time I realize the motto of any academic environment is to "Publish or Perish"  This is true of academic divines as well as any college professor today - and in the past.  The drive for tenure is an ancient one and most will do almost anything to attain it. It's called job security.  The intellectual (and sometimes moral) compromises involved in accomplishing this remind me of the ones required to succeed in the political realm.

I propose we all come to this landmark study of an essential and very different book, with as much of an open mind - and heart - as is spiritually possible.  I commit to pray intently prior to responding to any post herein and challenge you all to do the same.  Perhaps we all will find new light - His light.

Do it to it, Tom, and be led by Him.

Amen,

doc

To the point Once Saved Always Saved??? it would seem as though perhaps not by this passage.  If anything it does point the the perfect sacrifice as being all sufficient.  You cannot stand against God and in that you cannot stand against those who are "saved" as in persecution.

 

If anything can be gleaned from the book of revelations it is that some people are judged in this world, "saints", and those who are judged later, at the second coming.  It could be said that the "saints" are saved; they are not in contempt of God and if they are they are dealt with.  Everyone else might be as deserving of sainthood or being saved but they have not been judged yet.  That may be a good thing, it may be a bad thing.  It is through Miracles, signs and wonders that saints, disciples, are known and they are given to further the word of God (ie everything after the Gospels).

Peter, Cephas, after the Crucifixion became the head of the Church.  He was put in jail.  You cannot put the Church in jail and be saved.  The guards did not know that Peter was a man of God.  He did miracles and they then knew that he was.  Likewise there are believers who proclaim their belief.  These people cannot be persecuted.  To do so is to hold Christ in contempt.

Personally, I believe that there is no time to make amends when the kingdom of God has come up someone who is in contempt.  I say that I believe this because there is no way of truly knowing what Judgment Day will be like and what ruler we will be held to.  If you think that it will be the Bible alone then you obviously didn't read it in the first place.

There is the notion that any sin is heinous to God and he see us all as wicked.  Christ suffers hell for us as punishment redeeming us of our sins.  This is not typically a disputed concept.  What is in dispute is what it takes to be someone of Christ.  John 3:16 says anyone who believes in his name.  On the surface is seems like a one time thing like registering to vote.  The name Jesus is an English word.  The belief is something more then a verbal or internalized affirmation.  Who he was, who he is and what he died for and why he died bring us closer to him.  Part of that is that you do not hijack the true and go around doing un-Christ-like things in his name, etc.  These people who pervert Christianity will suffer the deepest depths of Hell.

Hi vampares,

I don't think that I have welcomed you yet so welcome to Christians Unit.

I must disagree with some of your post but I will not argue with you over it.


The true Church is the "Body of Christ" not a brick and mortar building. The Head of that Church is Jesus Christ not Peter, not Paul or any other man. (Be advised that we do not do Catholic vs Protestant here. Any posts that do such will be modified or deleted.)

Eph 1:22  And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23  Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Eph 4:15  But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16  From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.


It is quite clearly stated in the Bible what ruler we will be held to ... Jesus Christ is that one and only ruler...

2Co 5:10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

and we will be judged according to His word.

2Ti 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17  That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

No, these people will suffer the lake of fire at the Great White Throne Judgment.

Revelation 20:4-6 Then I saw thrones, and sitting on them were those to whom authority to act as judges and to pass sentence was entrusted. Also I saw the souls of those who had been slain with axes [beheaded] for their witnessing to Jesus and [for preaching and testifying] for the Word of God, and who had refused to pay homage to the beast or his statue and had not accepted his mark or permitted it to be stamped on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived again and ruled with Christ (the Messiah) a thousand years. 5 The remainder of the dead were not restored to life again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed (happy, [a]to be envied) and holy (spiritually whole, of unimpaired innocence and proved virtue) is the person who takes part (shares) in the first resurrection! Over them the second death exerts no power or authority, but they shall be ministers of God and of Christ (the Messiah), and they shall rule along with Him a thousand years.

The Dead Are Judged

Revelations 20:11-15 11Then I saw a great white throne and the One Who was seated upon it, from Whose presence and from the sight of Whose face earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.  12 I [also] saw the dead, great and small; they stood before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life. And the dead were judged (sentenced) by what they had done [their whole way of feeling and acting, their aims and endeavors] in accordance with what was recorded in the books. 13 And the sea delivered up the dead who were in it, death and Hades (the state of death or disembodied existence) surrendered the dead in them, and all were tried and their cases determined by what they had done [according to their motives, aims, and works]. 14 Then death and Hades (the state of death or disembodied existence) were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.  15 And if anyone's [name] was not found recorded in the Book of Life, he was hurled into the lake of fire.

The key word here in the KJV is "thinketh". In the BBE is "seems to himself" and the ISV is "the person who thinks he is standing securely". We see in this chapter that it is speaking of those who are idolaters, fornicators and those that tempt Christ.

1Co 10:21  Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

We are being told that we cannot be followers of God if we are followers after those things of the Devil. We cannot be followers of God if we have our eyes set on the things of this world.

No, Paul was not speaking to idolaters. He was speaking to the members of the church at Corinth.

The Apostle Paul was speaking to saved Christian believers, not unsaved unbelievers.

People who believe the eternal security lie will do anything to justify their license to sin.  ::)

Believe what you will but eternal security is not a license to sin. Again I point out the following verse in this chapter.

1Co 10:21  Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

Yes Paul was talking to the church at Corinth. Just because people are in a church does not mean that they are saved, born again Christians. There are many people that profess to be Christians and attend church regularly that are in no way a true born again Christian.

I strongly suggest that you do a full study on the entire chapter. I also suggest a few other links already here on the forum:

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=8959.msg111974#msg111974

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=550.0

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=12230.0

As I said you can believe what you want as for me I will believe the promise of God:


Joh 10:27  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Praise God for His wonderful mercies!

Evangelist

First let me state this.
God's promise is not that if we are faithful we will be guaranteed material wealth.  When you read the Bible in it's context you will see this.  WHen you learn to interpret the apparently complex verses in light of the simpler ones your eyes shall be opened.  And of you think that only material wealth such as money or good health are signs of being faithful and getting God's blessings then I would remind you of Lazarus who was covered in sores the dogs licked, and lived for droppings from the rich mans table.  The angels carried him off to heaven as they will for us.  He was not rich with gold, nor blessed with good health...but he was blessed by God and lived in God's promises.  The thief on the cross with Jesus may have had health up until he was hanging, did not have money or he would not have been stealing from people.  But Jesus said he would be dining in heave that night because of God's promise.

To place our salvation in our hands in any way shape or form such as you are want to do by stating the gift can be returned to God is doing just that.  Paul explains in Romans 5 that God's grace is a gift to us.  Paul explains in the earlier chapters of Romans that we are all sinners and that we can do nothing on our own to save our souls.  In Ephesians we also see that salvation is a gift given by the grace of God and not of our own merits.  To state in any way shape or form that we can return this gift means that we can then earn it again.  And if we could earn salvation in any way based on our own merits means that Jesus died in vain.  Jesus himself used simple words like "forever" and "eternal" for a reason.  Because that is forever and for eternity, and not temporary or as long as we feel like it. 

Just as man is born in to sin and a sin nature due to the fall of man and Adam.  Nicodemus had a problem with this concept of birth as well.  If you look back in Genesis to the generations of Adam you will find that everything after Adam was born in the likeness of Adam and not of God.  There were two men ever born in an image of God was Adam and Jesus.  Gen 5:3 "...and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image;..."  After Adam we were all born sinners.  Then Jesus spoke of another birth.  Being born again in the image of God.  When we are saved we experience that second birth.  That birth into the family of Jesus.  A spiritual birth.  There is talk over and over of how we are new creatures.  Just as we can only physically be born once we can also only be spiritually born once as well.  And the whole of the Bible supports this.

You are right in stating my salvation is a license to sin.  You know I killed all the people I wanted to kill today.  I stole all the money I wanted to steal today.  I slept with all the other women besides my wife I wanted to today.  Being a child of God I just do not want to do all those things.  And praise God for it. 

I would recommend you read your Bible and study.  Go to it in prayer that Jesus will help you along.  The Bible tells us that if we go to Him in prayer that He will provide us the knowledge and understanding.  Follow up on the posts mentioned and I am sure there are others. 

I know all the specifics of the doctrine of Eternal Security.

I was saved in a Free Will  Baptist Church On June 10 1990.

Since that day, I have read the Bible, 23 times, from Genesis
to Revelation. so I am quite familiar with the Scriptures.

I graduated in the top 5 students with a 4.0 garde average from a
 Faith based Bible college in Arkansas in 2000.

I have studied the doctrine of eternal security extensivelly,
and have found that there are too many faults in it, to justify it's credibility.

Main point being, all of Gods word is NOT used as an accurate and acceptable
foundational basis for it's authencity.

Let him who thinks he is secure be careful because he is capable of failing.

Only our past sisn have been forgiven, no future sin can be forgiven until that sin
has been confessed, common sense tells us that.

No person can lose their salvation, I agree 100% with that fact

BUT anyone can forfeit their salvation.



satan knows the word very well, he instituted the OSAS teaching, Not God.

.

modified to remove portions that blatantly disregard forum rules.

moderator

One thing that is in your post is a whole lot of I's.  And all of the certificates, diplomas, or kudo's you want to toss up there do nto mean a hill of beans.  One thing that is missing is not once do I see prayer listed anywhere on there.  Not once do I see that you went to God seeking wisdom and advice.

Now as to the issue of losing or forfieting salvation.  I am not certain how far into it PR and the other mods want to allow this discussion to go.  But if you are willing to post your Biblical references to show any possible way in which man can turn over his salvation to God only to possibly get it back again later, I know I would be glad to see it.

Brother Jerry, I have no objection to a furtherance of this discussion as long as it remains peaceful.

I agree with your assessment ... all the education in the world does not equate an understanding or wisdom in the word of God. That comes from God alone and can be given to an individual with no education at all. I have met many a young person that had more wisdom and understanding than many an individual with a Doctorate in Theology.

Worthy indeed is the Lamb "that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing"  (Rev 5:12). And in the light of "so great salvation" i certainly am guilty of not redering unto the Lord according to the beneft thereof" (2Chr. 32:25), and i must be more dilligent  in surrender to Him. . Hezekaih got 15 more years added to his earthly life, but which did not turn out to be blessing, as his heart was lifted up, and he basically cast his (or God's) "pearls before swine," showing the princes of Babylon "his precious things, the silver, and the gold, and the spices, and the precious ointment, and all the house of his armour, and all that was found in his treasures" (is. 39), which would later be carried to Babylon.

Though this debate concerns losing salvation, the above verse does not directly spreak to that, but that we have far more grace given us and are thus far more motivation -a nd acountablity- to serve "the LORD thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of all things" (Deu 28:47; the opposite of which is why they suffered such terible chastisment).

As for the actual OSAS subject, i think Gal. 5:1-4 is the strongest verse for the probationist postion (mine?), while Jn. 18:9 is one of the best forthe prevervationist view. And what is clearer, is that that whjile we are saved by grace thru faith, not on any merit of own, a faith that does not overall  follow Christ (Jn. 10:27-29) is not Biblical saving faith. If we rest in Jesus as Savior, then we will follow Him as Lord, as that is who and what our object of faith is (Rm. 10:9). It is such "things that accompany salvation" (Heb. 6:9) that the great assurance verse of 1Jn. 5:13 refers to as "these things."

Praise ye the Lord.

I'm glad that you mentioned 1Jn. 5:13. "These things", what are some of these things that are spoken of?

1. he that overcometh the world is he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God

2. the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth

3. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself

4. God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son

5. He that hath the Son hath life

6. that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God

1Jn 5:14  And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
1Jn 5:15  And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

Our confidence is IN HIM. We have this confidence that He has given us "eternal life" and that "neither shall any man pluck" us out of His hand. Any man, NO man can pluck us out of His hand.

Does this mean that we can freely sin?

Rom 6:1  What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2  God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Joh 10:27  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

To truly follow Him we cannot freely live in sin.

Good to see your response.

#1, 4 -6  of your response are declarative facts, but must be seen in context with things that describe what  overcoming the world entails, and what manner of believing assures that one has the son and eternal life.   

#2 + 3 are  true but subjective, which must be understood in the light of the objective word.

6. that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

It is incontrovertable that we are saved by faith, which I John confirms, and to God be the glory for that, but  I John also delineates what manner of faith it is by which one can have confidence that he is saved.

In this cursory examination i see things that describe what saving faith consists of, such as

1. Confession of sin, in the context of faith in Christ: Jn. 1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

2. Keepings God's commandments (aka keeping His word): And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.    (1 John 2:3-5). And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.    (1 John 3:24).

3. Loving, not hating, his brothers, which pratically is shown by meeting legitimate needs: He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.    (1 John 2:9-10). But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?    (1 John 3:17). If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? (1 John 4:20).  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.    (1 John 5:1)

4. Having the word of Christ dwell in us: I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.    (1 John 2:14b)

5. Doing righteousness, as the word of God describes: If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.    (1 John 2:29)

6. Seeking to be as pure as Christ: ... when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure (1 John 3:2b, 3).

7. Practicing sin: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin [as a practice]; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God  In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.    (1 John 3:9, 10).

8. An effective prayer life: And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight  (1 John 3:22).

9. Actively witnessing for Christ: And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.    (1 John 4:14)

10. Overcoming the world, which excludes those who love the world, seeking pleasure, possessions and power/prestige over the glory of god and His pleasure, kingdom and power.  Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.    (1 John 2:15). For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.    (1 John 5:4).

hello everyone,

          I'll admit I didn't read everyones post but what I did read I didn't see anyone who posted:

John 10:28-29
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father who has given them to me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

I had actually gotten into a discussion with one of my friends at school because my initial belief was that if you completely turn your back on God then your disowning him. But she told me about this passage and I may only be 16 but it's in God's word so I didn't even think twice about it. I may not be a pastor or youth leader but isn't this verse substantial enough to prove that once saved is always saved? plz I want to know what older and wiser people have to say about my reasoning for believing what I believe

         Kyle

Hi Kyle,

Welcome to Christians Unite.

Yes, that is exactly what it is saying in that verse. God is able to keep that which has been given to Him.

2Ti 1:12  For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Jud 1:24  Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Jud 1:25  To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Kyle,

Also a hearty welcome to CU.

And you are exactly correct.  The verse is so completely simple that it may stand on it's own and need no further supporting verses to get the point across.

But typical to man we like to overcomplicate things.  And those that believe you may turn your back on salvation will use that verse to say "See it says no-one can snatch you from God, but it does not say anything about you walking away from God."  But they fail to realize that when God says NO ONE He means it, we are not stronger than God and thus able to break His grip anymore than anyone else is.

Again Welcome to the forums and  you are off to a great start, keep up the Godly understanding and you never know...it could be Pastor Kyle ;)

Brothers and Sisters,

I must apologize for the delay in the study that I promised. Health changed my plans, and I don't know when I'll be able to do what I felt led to do. I'll do it LORD Willing when HE enables me with the necessary health and concentration.

In the meantime, I'll remind everyone that there are many things that can be lost or impacted for Christians that ARE NOT SALVATION! Rewards that are over and above Salvation is just one example. An example that effects us right now in this life is the level and quantity of our fellowship with our LORD and MASTER. It should be obvious to most Christians that what we do or don't do dynamically impacts our day to day relationship with our LORD and Saviour. Long-term Christians will also know there is chastisement for those who don't yield to the Will of GOD in this life. Many will consider this chastisement as a form of punishment, BUT more mature Christians will recognize it as a form of GOD'S Love to help conform us to HIS Way. HIS Way is always the best for us, so we should expect chastisement and loss when we stray from HIS Way. HIS Way is the only acceptable Way, AND that would be in ALL THINGS. There is no way that a Christian can measure up to GOD'S Standards, so we should remember the clear teaching of the Bible, "Those whom HE Loves, HE chastises." This is not talking about the loss or gain of Salvation.

Mature Christians ALL know that Salvation is a one-time event that is NOT on the installment plan. The PERFECT WORK was finished on the CROSS by JESUS CHRIST. Our work is NOT for Salvation, rather as a matter of love and appreciation to our LORD and Saviour. If our work is done for any other reason, it is burned up as useless. We have NOTHING of any worth to pay any portion of the payment for Salvation because ALL of the PAYMENT for SALVATION must be PERFECT AND HOLY. JESUS CHRIST had the only means to pay such a PERFECT AND HOLY PRICE, and HE DID on the CROSS. Apart from the blood of JESUS, we are nothing, lost, and bound for the fires of hell. When we accept the PERFECT GIFT of GOD - JESUS CHRIST - we have the Promises of GOD right then and forever - Eternal Life. At the moment of Salvation, it is indeed finished, and we are a purchased possession of JESUS CHRIST. No power in the universe can pluck us out of HIS MIGHTY HANDS. There is only ONE SALVATION, and the Promises of GOD are ALL in effect in a moment. The PROMISES OF GOD ARE YEA!, AMEN!, DONE! There is NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in CHRIST, AND new believers are QUICKENED - TRANSLATED into the BODY OF CHRIST at the moment of SALVATION forever! The quality and quantity of our fellowship with GOD in this life is up to us, how we yield, and what we do. Our rewards over and above SALVATION are also up to us, BUT once we belong to JESUS - HIM POSSESSING us forever is not up to us. We are no longer our own - we were bought with a price - we were delivered, AND the BLOOD OF CHRIST on the CROSS was and is the PERFECT AND ETERNAL PAYMENT. We don't keep ourselves because we no longer belong to ourselves. We belong to JESUS CHRIST, and HE keeps us.

Thanks be unto GOD for HIS Unspeakable GIFT - JESUS CHRIST - our LORD and Saviour Forever!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 5:20 NASB  The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

Amen!

I believe that once someone is born of the Spirit they cannot lose their salvation.   They are so on fire for God and live in His presence daily and it is a joy to be around these people.   I tell you something, there is nothing else to turn to!  Yeeee haaaa! Hallelujah!

I just caught up on reading this thread and I must sayy that I still stand by my original conviction of the eternal security of the Believer.  I recently slid backwards a bit because I took my focus off of God and it went on things of the world. In order for me to juggle everything, i thought I could do it on my own. I did it very well for a while but i have come to realize that without God, my marriage is mediocre at best. Don't get me wrong I love my wife dearly, but i've realized that with God at the helm, that things are alot better off. I'm starting to get back into listening to christian music now, and am making a conscious effort to get back in church. With my recent move, and my work schedule, i've been too busy to get to church either on shift or not. Well things have calmed down and now we're getting back into church. I reckon the reason I told everyone all of this, is because, you know, yes, I backslid...does that make me a bad person...some may think so, some may not. However, I know that during that time, my salvation wasn't lost...I still have it and I never lost it. I just made the decision to quit running away from God...see the salvation wasn't lost, however the daily precense of the Holy Spirit was gone because other things became my priority. Well no more. The best thing a person can do, is to take inventory and make sure that they have their priorities straight. Because God will get their attention just like He got mine. God will only allow us to stray so far away before He calls us back to attention. He love is still there, and His grace is ever so sufficient for us. Figured i'd share....God Bless

Joshua

Amen Brother Joshua!

We do suffer in many ways when GOD isn't the top priority in our lives, but it doesn't mean that we've lost our Salvation. We might lose or impact many other things like fellowship and happiness, but GOD is ever faithful.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Galatians 2:20 NASB  "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Amen

Hi Brother Joshua,

Another AMEN! It is great to see you here and to hear how God is working in your life.

God is forever faithful and His promise to never leave us is a promise.

Took me a little while to get back, just been exceptionally busy. i'm still in processing for the Air Force believe it or not because the Chief Medical Officer did not want to make the call so he sent it to the Surgeon General of the Air Force, so we're waiting on that one now. It's hard to believe that i've been in processing for 6 going on 7 months already for the AF, i spent 3 in processing for the Marines. So ten months lol. If they didn't want me, they should just say so...hee hee. Oh wwell, i'm stubborn so i'll keep trying to get in, and hope i don't get disqualified. If I do, it's God's will and His providence will keep me. Well time to browse around the web some more maybe cuddle with the wife in a few min who knows. Laterz.

Joshua

Hello Brother Joshua,

I could have told you how to make in-processing for the Marines just a matter of minutes. You simply growl, chew through the nearest concrete wall, stick your chest out, and growl once more.  Everything else is skipped, and they send you to boot camp.  ;D

lol i know.... yea yea

 ;D ;D ;D ;D

would punching through a concrete wall suffice? Besides, i'd much rather be known for my intelligence than knowing how to grunt, growl and be a bulletcatcher as they're so fondly called...lol

You could always join the Navy and be on a floating target or worse yet on a boat that purposefully sinks.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D

i hate water and I don't really like being a slow moving target or a target at all really lol

a big.....  (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/tinabaran/bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb.jpg)


Boy, do I know this!! I got that 't-shirt'  too!! 

I thought it was fun.   ;D ;D

Amen, sister. Many of us do.

of course squids would like it...geesh the only way i'll do it is if i'm a chaplain apprentice protecting a friend of mine who requests me when he gets higher up
that's IT!!!! I won't step foot on a floating target...lol

I used to think the same thing as I can't swim. You never know where God's calling may lead us.

meh I dunwanna be on a bbbbbbbbbbbbbbboat!!!! mwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah. j/k lol...i'll be in the sky :)

I look forward to being in the sky also .....


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/randers/lookingup12-2.gif)

Just goes to prove that you can study till you're blue in the face and still get it wrong.  Brother, I pray you'll understand.   :)

AMEN Brother Kevin!

I give thanks that I don't keep myself and I don't depend on myself because I am far too weak. BUT, JESUS is strong and never fails. HE picks me up when I stumble and welcomes me home when I stray from HIS Way. HE is not willing to lose even one that the FATHER has given HIM.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Colossians 2:8-10 NASB  See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

Amen Brother!

AMEN!! Brother Kevin!!

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaitaminutehere...You're not agreeing with me, you're agreeing with my statement!

Not bad!  Can I borrow that?   :D ;D  Love ya Brother!

John 5 24 reads Truly truly, I say to you he who hears my word and belives in him who sent me  Has Eternal LIfe and does not come into judgement but has passed from death to life.The oppinion of those on this subject are great  to nuts. my thought is that I lean towards once saved always saved because there are a lot of verses that would make it seem that way  .One in mind is God s promise that no one can pluck you from His hand.with that said right on.no worries.
We all fail at some point for we are not perfect yet .Am I worried about my salvation or if I've done somthing that leads to death or lost salvation absolutly not
I am a new creature in Christ and though difficulties we grow in faith .the  spirit is with us well know when we fail and when we do'nt.Just to throw a little spin on the subject If once saved allways saved then do we lose free will.because if we cannot choose to turn away from God( why anyone would I don't know)
then we don't have free will and are not more than a robot.
 I have read stories of  those who had great ministries and left them and denounced God. are they still saved or was God using a nonbeliver to His advantage.Possible How about those who are in ministry and commit sin .is there salvation gone or have they neverbeen saved.
One verse Im thinking of is If you are saved you will not continue to sin.I've allways under stood that to mean habitual sin.I dont belive anyone can go through a day and not sin some way.or as i call it Insidental sin.it would be the type that once it happened you knew it.
 

hey kevin, at first glance you profile pic looked like Jesus was carrying a bat...but a second look he has wine and bread. Although i have seen some bread that could double as a bat................................lol

Cool ain't it?   :D  HEY!  When did you get hitched?

August 26th of 2006 lol. U've been gone a while. I'm also going into athe Air Force. I passed my hearing test and am waiting to take my language test and computer programmers test. :)) we'll see. Right now i work second shift to pay the bills. :))

Yup.  Been gone for quite awhile.  I did the 2nd shift thing when I was first married.  It's been 10 years now, and 2 and 1/2 kids later!  Things goin' good for you and the mrs?  Any ideas of where you'd like to be stationed in the Air Force?

Going pretty well, I want to go to London or Japan overseas, anywhere here in the states. Second shift isn't too bad. I work 4 tens and i'm off friday, sat, sunday. Soo it's not too bad. The wifey's getting ready to go spend her money (ours) lol that's how it usually works. She's stingy with money so I know we'll never go into debt lol. At least voluntarily...hee hee

hehehe...my wife just bought a new stove/oven...after we paid our bills.  She called and said she's spent more money today than any day in her life.  I told her not to get used to it.   ;D  Now.  Lemme give my counsel for a newly married dude and dudette.  You, are the king.  She, is the servant girl.  You rule the home.  She cleans it.  Follow these simple rules and life will be great for the both of you!  That's how it works in my hou...er...a...hi honey!  Want me to get that for you...?


 ;D

LOL :BBUSTEDD!! ;I know better, it takes two i'm head of house, but i still coook and clean lol.. If you follow those rules...ur already yin trouble lol

LOL

You learn quick!   :D Yah.  I do the cook and clean thing.  In all honesty, God does tell us to love and serve...

Different strokes for different folks but I don't believe in it-freeindeed

My mother and have gone round and round on this subject.

I am of the opinion that if you continue in your sin that you probably weren't really saved in the first place.  HOWEVER.... if you truely repented and accepted Christ but then back-slid into your old ways, ie addiction; you are still saved.  Since you are still saved your "high" will never be the same because the Holy Spirit is in you.  Because of that you will always feel tremdous guilt and the Lord tugging on you to come back to Him.  If you weren't saved you wouldn't feel that.
Since in your heart and mind you believe Jesus is who he said he was; John 3:16 (and the Lord knows your heart); you have been saved.  You won't have the wonderful life here on earth of walking with Jesus daily, or the glorious rewards in heaven that you may have had if you had not back-slid, but you will still go to heaven.

Brothers and Sisters,

I've been involved in this debate many times. This time I'm simply going to say that I give thanks that I'm truly SAVED! I don't deserve it and I won't ever deserve it. I love JESUS CHRIST who paid the full and perfect price. I have 100 percent assurance of Salvation and I already have Eternal Life ONLY because GOD promised this, not because of anything I've done or anything I deserve. I deserve nothing but punishment for my sins, but JESUS CHRIST took my punishment in HIS own precious Body, and HIS Blood has washed my sins away.

Brothers and Sisters, I do firmly believe that GOD wants us to know that we have 100% Assurance of Salvation. All REAL Christians have already been translated into the BODY OF CHRIST and their hearts are sealed with the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD. There is no way that we can be strong in CHRIST unless we at least KNOW that we're Saved. All of the thanks and Glory goes to GOD - not man and certainly not ourselves. My LORD and SAVIOUR is Perfect, Holy, and Righteous - AND HE is my Salvation. I give thanks, praise, and worship to HIM every day. HE set me free from the Curse of sin and death. HE broke the chains and shackles that were holding me in the darkness and I love the LIGHT!

Love In Christ,
Tom

AMEN to this!!!  But, I also believe that our "fruit" is evidence of our "relationship" with Christ.

Love in Christ, Eva

Amen, sister, that is so true. The fruit of the spirit that is in us is that which shows in "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance.

Secure On The Rock

One stormy night a ship was wrecked by crashing on the rocks off the coast of Cornwall, England. All hands perished but one lone Irish lad, who was hurled by the waves upon the jagged slopes of a great towering ledge, where he managed to find a place of refuge. In the morning, watchers on the beach spied him through their glasses, and a boat was launched and rowed to where he clung. Almost dead from the cold and exposure, he was tenderly lifted into the boat and brought ashore.

After he got warm and felt better he was asked, "Lad, didn't ye tremble out there on the rock in all that storm?" He replied brightly in his Irish way, "Trimble? Sure and I trimbled. But do you know, the rock never trimbled wanct all night." If you have trusted Christ, you are on the Rock. While you may tremble, that does not invalidate God's salvation. The Rock remains firm and secure. Look away from self altogether and rely solely upon the Word of God.

AMEN PASTOR ROGER!

This is beautiful and wonderful to think about on a regular basis. We learn about HIS Strength during our times of weakness and trial. We stumble and fail, but we know that HE Never fails.

Deuteronomy 32:3-4 NASB
"For I proclaim the name of the LORD; Ascribe greatness to our God! "The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He.

Psalms 18:30-31 NASB
As for God, His way is blameless; The word of the LORD is tried; He is a shield to all who take refuge in Him. For who is God, but the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God,

Psalms 19:14 NASB
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart Be acceptable in Your sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer.

I give thanks that our faith and trust is in "The ROCK of Ages", ONE who never fails.

Love In Christ,
Tom

 

Here is my short answer and if I have time I will answer Heb 6. Firist , the word in Greek is SOZO, IT IS IN THE PERFECT TENSE in Greek grammer. this verb has yo demensions to it , it is a combination of past action WITH a CONTINIUN PRESENT. This means when you were in the past , you are always in the present, Ihope I did't make it clear as mud, because we are always in the    present we are always saved. By the way it is in the indictative mood, whisch means THIS IS A FACT and you better believe it, but also in the passive voice, which means the HOLY SPIRIT  did a work in you and you could not do it. The short answer in Heb 6:4 you can't put Christ back on the cross and crucify Christ again , if you read v1 it sound like hereasy to say forsake the teaching of Christ ,v2 teaching of baptisms because those who baptized can't answer these verses.

Hello Brother Dan,

The answers are already posted in detail in several threads, but you're most welcome to post it again.

Love In Christ,
Tom

 

Sister Lorrie,

If you think that sin causes you to lose your Salvation, you need to go back and study some more. Salvation isn't conditional on man being perfect and without sin, mainly because there are NO men who are perfect and without sin. As a result, NOBODY would be saved. You're probably mixing ages, and that never works. GOD Promises Eternal Life based on Faith in JESUS CHRIST. JESUS CHRIST finished the work on the CROSS, and man has nothing worthy to add. Faith in JESUS CHRIST is accounted as Righteousness, and that's a good thing because that's all the Righteousness man has. ALL men sin, and the righteousness of man is as filthy rags. This is why JESUS CHRIST is the only way to be saved. I think that you need to take another look at the basics.


1:  Romans 3:10 NASB  as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

2:  Romans 3:23  NASB  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

3:  Romans 5:12  NASB  Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

4:  Romans 6:23  NASB  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

5:  Romans 1:18  NASB  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

6:  Romans 3:20  NASB  because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

7:  Romans 3:27  NASB  Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

8:  Romans 5:8-9  NASB  But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

9:  Romans 2:4  NASB  Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

10:  Romans 3:22  NASB  even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

11:  Romans 3:28  NASB  For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

12:  Romans 10:9  NASB  that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

13:  Romans 4:21  NASB  and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.

14:  Romans 4:24 NASB  but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,

15:  Romans 5:1  NASB  Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

16:  Romans 10:10  NASB  for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

17:  Romans 10:13  NASB  for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Dear topic writer,

Your username is "saved_by_grace." Whose grace? The work of God as a gift for undeserving mankind is grace; not, the work of man for God. There is no meeting of man in a common ground between heaven and earth. This was once and only accomplished by the unique God-Man (Theanthropos), the Last Adam. the pioneer of our faith, where nothing exists except in Christ. Permissively or decreed.

The doctrine of separation in 2 Tim 3:5 as given by the Apostle Paul, in his last writing before his death to his "son in Christ," Timothy reads: "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power therof: from such turn away." KJV

If you are not trusting in Christ Jesus for salvation - who are you trusting? How could Christ give back those whom the Father has given Him (Gospel of John)?  How could a regenerated spirit deny the Christ that saved him in the act of willfulfully giving back his/her salvation?

You assert a doctrine that was a "post-Reformation" return to Catholicism. (Ref the 18th century writings Augustine v. Pelagius, of Luther v. Arasmus, and Charles S. Spurgeon along with Dr. Toplady on Arminiainism in the 19th century before critical analysis of the Bible formed modern-day liberal theology) You are probably shallowly repeating what you've heard from others and are not aware that you are <i>de facto</i>  claiming a doctrine known variously as the "Governmental, Rectoral, or Federal theory of atonement" that would devalue the infinite value in the death of Christ for salvation. This theory was codified (after the Pelagius; 4th century>Socinius>Arminius; 17th century>Hugo Grotius who fled a prison term, was granted asylum in France, and is considered the genius of codified Maritime Law; who asserted that his theory could be proved like a mathematical formula of reason without the Bible's witness by the ancient legal codes of Roman Law; 17th century>Dr. John Miley's Systematic Theology and others; 19th and 20th century) all of whom mentioned where judged heretical, except for the modern John Miley, et al.. This theory is an exercise in rationalism and religious humanism tailored to the sin of pride for only "good people" who deserve to go to heaven.

Why is this "theory" of a benevolent God who administratively forgives sin because of the"illustration of punishment" example set by the death of Christ heretical? A God who out of "fairness" and as an example must not forgive those who do not comply to a fickle, unstated, and dubious "scale of justice." To claim this as a valid theory, imputation to Christ of "all sin" and imputation of the "righteousness of Christ" to the accepted faith of a new believer as his/her permanent standing before God (i.e., justification by faith - a thread that runs through the entire Bible) must be denied. Also, the penal satisfaction in the reconciliation of man to God provided by the death of Christ must be denied. In addition, the "complete satisfaction"  that provides for the potential salvation of all unregenerate mankind is denied.

To answer the feeble few,  incorrect hermanuetical and exegeted verses which relay on the upside-down definition of English back into the KJV; instead of the underlying original Greek into modern concepts - which are then claimed as teaching a "loss of salvation."  The KJV only and a Webster's abridged Dictionary are NOT the proper  basis for interpreting Scripture. Most Arminian seminaries have long ago ceased from requiring a knowledge of Greek of Hebrew from their graduates.

The following quoted summary is available at (a-voice.org/main/12people.htm)  which as basic and complete as I could produce for the reader of this reply. This  "false teaching" has, by far, the majority forum in Protestant, neo-evangelical Christianity today. A teaching that joins hands with the Catholic salvation where a future determined "scale of justice" good "news promise" of evangelism which leaves the believer and his loved ones without the assurance of being joined together with Christ by the baptism of the Holy Spirit at the moment of accepted faith - in this life and the life that follows.

  If you must do anything to maintain your salvation you are not saved, you are on probation. 
  I CANNOT save myself, I CANNOT keep myself saved, I CANNOT even will at all times to be willing to keep myself saved.  You, however, are different.  You CAN save yourself, you CAN keep yourself saved, and you CAN be willing at all times to be willing.   
  Those of you who must DO something to keep yourselves saved, ready for the rapture, maintain acceptance by God or any other thing I have the utmost understanding of and compassion for, having trod that road myself.  I still fight with the law of sin and death, mostly because I hear it all the time from Christian radio so-called and preachers of the gospel -again, so-called- that use the law as a cudgel to -keep their people in line-.  Thank God for the Lord Jesus.  HE is the resurrection and the life.
  We are not subject to the law of sin and death, and those who claim that when they sin they seek for God to forgive them don't know their Bible, because without the shedding of blood their is NO remission, and the wages of sin are not broken fellowship with God, they are not a feeling of mortification or estrangement, they are not a hindrance in prayer, they are death.  Flat out no other, death.  Death is the wages of sin, and without the shedding of blood there is NO remission.  So, whose blood shall it be?  Yours?  Will you seek to crucify the Lord Jesus again and again every time you -sin-, or will you finally come to not only the cross but that empty tomb and get life everlasting as a gift?  It's one or the other;  death and blood for remission of sins or life that death can't touch.  There is no possible admixture of the two.   
  It is totally against the flesh to be saved without your having any hand in the matter.  The flesh both requires and demands -and demands most loudly and continually- that you have something, anything, to do with your salvation.  Surely there is something I must do, surely there is something I can do, surely there is something required of me that will complete the work of Christ or at least make the work of Christ more sure.  Surely there is something I can do that will cause God to favor me.  Surely I can earn through my own efforts merit with God.  Pray.  Give money.  Witness.  Fast.  Pray more.  Read my Bible every day.  Fast more often.  Pray even more.  Fast for longer periods.  Give more money.  Go to church every time the doors are opened.  Have more faith.  Surely the wrath of God will be assuaged, surely I will earn favor with God if I do these things and more and do them more often and with greater fervor.     
  There is one way out of that vicious rat-race, His name is Jesus Christ, and there is no other way.   
 
  IF you must do anything to be saved (including generate faith) or to -keep- your salvation then you are an enemy of the cross of Christ. 

 
  Galatians 3:13  Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
  Hebrews 9:22  And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
  Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

  finney

What difference does it make?

I am almost speechless there :)

The discussion is if you are saved are you saved forever or can you at some time loose your salvation?  And you ask what difference does it make?

Well to me what you believe does not make any difference to me, I know that I am a child of God and no matter what I am counted as a saint.  I would have to say though that if you think that you can lose your salvation then you may not have been saved to begin with and that does matter to me.

Those who believe they can lost their salvation apparently believe that God only gave them temporary life, but my God gave me ETERNAL life! So how long is eternity? "Eternal" life until you sin again (more than likely the same day you get saved) is NOT eternal life. Eternal mean FOREVER.

Allow me to restate my meaning, then.

If you believe that once you are saved, you are always saved, are you going to live any differently? Is there any purpose at all behind trying to prove one side or the other?

Hi Sapphire,

It's great to see you here again.

This is an important subject as it does pertain to a persons salvation. There is nothing more important than ones salvation in and through Jesus Christ. We should not decry the importance of anything that pertains to salvation.

The most important questions that come up because of this subject is "Am I saved?", "How can I know that I am saved?", "Do I lose my Salvation because I slip up and commit a sin?", "Do I have to perform certain "works" to maintain my salvation?". These are just a few of the questions that fall into this subject and ones that a person truly has the need to have answered.

I think you're still not understanding what I'm getting at.

We should always live as if once we are saved, we are NOT always saved. I hate this topic because it generates so much debate, but everyone always misses the point completely. Whether or not we are always saved isn't important. If it becomes important, then there's generally a problem because we worry about whether or not the things we do will "un-save" us. I know they won't, you know they won't, we are saved by faith, not good works, etc. You don't need to explain that to me, it's irrelevant.

My point is that we should always live as if once we are saved, we CAN fall from grace. It doesn't matter whether or not you believe that can happen. Living that way helps avoid complacency and stagnation. Stop fighting about the details. You're missing the bigger picture.

I do understand what you are saying and I do agree that we should do all we can to live that sort of life. It is also important to understand what the Bible says on this subject because there are those that try and try to avoid or overcome a specific sin. It sometimes can be a major struggle before they realize just how to give that sin over to God's hands and to let Him take care of it. Because of such teachings that you can lose your salvation and the misunderstanding of the verse that says there is no more sacrifice if we sin.

It is the details that are important. Did you ever think that perhaps it is you that are missing the bigger picture? I for one will continue to teach and preach the word of God. That is not arguing, it is teaching His word so that all may understand the wonderful saving grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hello Sapphire,

I think that I understand what you're saying, but there's even a BIGGER PICTURE that's on the other side of the coin.

I think that Christians are weak until they find out that there are unquestioned Promises of GOD, who they are made to, and what they mean. Doubt can mean more than just complacency. In fact, doubt can many times completely defeat a Christian in the hard times. For this reason, doubt is a friend of the devil. For the purposes of the devil, it's always good to get man to question the Promises of GOD for the same reason it's good to get man to question the ABSOLUTE AND UNQUESTIONED TRUTH OF ANY PART OF THE HOLY BIBLE. As an example, it's a huge victory for the devil to get Christians to doubt GOD'S Account of HIS CREATION in Genesis. It's actually a huge victory for the devil to cause anyone to doubt any portion of the HOLY BIBLE because of what it leads to. It leads to: IF ANY PORTION IS IN DOUBT - IT'S ALL IN DOUBT.

NOW, let's look at that other side of the coin. Some of the Promises of GOD cause problems because some people don't understand WHO those Promises were made to. The biggest example is Israel as contrasted with the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. These two entities are different, and the Promises are different. GOD took extra care in getting both entities to understand HIS PROMISES for a reason. The DOUBT that can be caused is actually DOUBT in GOD. DOUBT in man doesn't make any difference at all, but DOUBT IN GOD can cause all kinds of problems that the devil loves. DOUBT IN GOD is NO PORTION of a Strong Christian's Life. DOUBT IN THE HOLY BIBLE IS NO PORTION of a Strong Christian's life. The devil doesn't like Strong Christians because their witness is SURE. In fact, there are many things about Strong Christians that the devil doesn't like. The devil finds them much more difficult to manipulate and use for his purposes. As a contrast, the devil can easily use and manipulate weak Christians because they are much easier for the devil to defeat. Weak and defeated Christians don't pose much of an adversary for the devil. If the Christian is weak and defeated enough, he or she can actually be an ally of the devil and used as an example for the lost. Strong and Victorious Christians are used as an example for GOD. In fact, GOD may keep using this Strong and Victorious Christian as an example long after they have physically died and gone HOME.

As an end result, Christians should know what the PROMISES OF GOD are and who they are made to. DOUBT is a bad thing that needs to be conquered. Every Christian should have a desire to become STRONG IN CHRIST and serve GOD however GOD Wills. We can look through the BIBLE and see the problems that DOUBT caused. SO, DOUBT is an enemy of GOD and not part of HIS Plan. Think about this in connection to JESUS CHRIST and the CROSS for the ultimate example. MAN WAS SAVED BY FAITH THROUGH GRACE PRIOR TO THE CROSS, SO WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THE CROSS?

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 1:18-23 NASB I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Here is a video about salvation http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=75eacff567a845b3d346

An excellent video with a most beautiful and fact filled message.

Hi all!

I actually love these discussions!  It always reminds me just how big God is.  He is bigger than me, bigger than my action or inaction.  I think we tend to forget the point of salvation: to bring glory to God.  God is the bigger picture we're talking about.  "The heavens declare the glory of God."  The universe is sooooooooooooo vast, and all for the purpose of putting the short, fat bald guy living on a rock, orbiting 1 of an unknown mass of stars into the right perspective in his own mind: it's not about what I do, have done, or will do. It's not about what I strive for, live for or fail to accomplish in life.  It's about Him and all that He is and has done for His glory in my life.  The joy is being able to know Him and see His glory.  Just a thought.

Amen!

And hi Allinall. It's great to see you here.

Hello Allinall,

ANOTHER AMEN BROTHER KEVEN!

YES, it's great to hear from you.

I think you hit the nail on the head with something that causes people all kinds of problems. The Work of SALVATION is GOD'S and HE gets ALL THE GLORY - none for men at all - zero! GOD doesn't need help from men to keep HIS Promises perfectly, and men have nothing to add to the PERFECT and COMPLETED WORK OF JESUS CHRIST ON THE CROSS! Men aren't worthy for Salvation, but JESUS CHRIST has everything man DOESN'T HAVE. When we are IN CHRIST, we are worthy only because we are seen through CHRIST. The Righteousness belongs to CHRIST, and HE bought our FREEDOM with HIS Blood.

ALL GLORY TO GOD!

Love In Christ,
Tom

2 Corinthians 4:1-18 AMP  THEREFORE, SINCE we do hold and engage in this ministry by the mercy of God [granting us favor, benefits, opportunities, and especially salvation], we do not get discouraged (spiritless and despondent with fear) or become faint with weariness and exhaustion.  2  We have renounced disgraceful ways (secret thoughts, feelings, desires and underhandedness, the methods and arts that men hide through shame); we refuse to deal craftily (to practice trickery and cunning) or to adulterate or handle dishonestly the Word of God, but we state the truth openly (clearly and candidly). And so we commend ourselves in the sight and presence of God to every man's conscience.  3  But even if our Gospel (the glad tidings) also be hidden (obscured and covered up with a veil that hinders the knowledge of God), it is hidden [only] to those who are perishing and obscured [only] to those who are spiritually dying and veiled [only] to those who are lost.  4  For the god of this world has blinded the unbelievers' minds [that they should not discern the truth], preventing them from seeing the illuminating light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ (the Messiah), Who is the Image and Likeness of God.  5  For what we preach is not ourselves but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves [merely] as your servants (slaves) for Jesus' sake.  6  For God Who said, Let light shine out of darkness, has shone in our hearts so as [to beam forth] the Light for the illumination of the knowledge of the majesty and glory of God [as it is manifest in the Person and is revealed] in the face of Jesus Christ (the Messiah). [Gen. 1:3.]  7  However, we possess this precious treasure [the divine Light of the Gospel] in [frail, human] vessels of earth, that the grandeur and exceeding greatness of the power may be shown to be from God and not from ourselves.  8  We are hedged in (pressed) on every side [troubled and oppressed in every way], but not cramped or crushed; we suffer embarrassments and are perplexed and unable to find a way out, but not driven to despair;  9  We are pursued (persecuted and hard driven), but not deserted [to stand alone]; we are struck down to the ground, but never struck out and destroyed;  10  Always carrying about in the body the liability and exposure to the same putting to death that the Lord Jesus suffered, so that the [resurrection] life of Jesus also may be shown forth by and in our bodies.  11  For we who live are constantly [experiencing] being handed over to death for Jesus' sake, that the [resurrection] life of Jesus also may be evidenced through our flesh which is liable to death.  12  Thus death is actively at work in us, but [it is in order that our] life [may be actively at work] in you.  13  Yet we have the same spirit of faith as he had who wrote, I have believed, and therefore have I spoken. We too believe, and therefore we speak, [Ps. 116:10.]  14  Assured that He Who raised up the Lord Jesus will raise us up also with Jesus and bring us [along] with you into His presence.  15  For all [these] things are [taking place] for your sake, so that the more grace (divine favor and spiritual blessing) extends to more and more people and multiplies through the many, the more thanksgiving may increase [and redound] to the glory of God.  16  Therefore we do not become discouraged (utterly spiritless, exhausted, and wearied out through fear). Though our outer man is [progressively] decaying and wasting away, yet our inner self is being [progressively] renewed day after day.  17  For our light, momentary affliction (this slight distress of the passing hour) is ever more and more abundantly preparing and producing and achieving for us an everlasting weight of glory [beyond all measure, excessively surpassing all comparisons and all calculations, a vast and transcendent glory and blessedness never to cease!],  18  Since we consider and look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are visible are temporal (brief and fleeting), but the things that are invisible are deathless and everlasting.

Hey everyone,

I am new to this forum and this is my first post. The security of a believer is an issue that I have been dealing with the last couple of years. For a long while, I had been a fairly strong Calvinist. Then, after a friend began to challenge me on my presuppositions, I began to read Scripture and just let it speak for itself without little or no 'tweaking'.

My conclusion was after an honest reading, that the Scripture seems to teach that both a person is secure, and that a person can lose their salvation, to the contrary of human logic. But, we must remember that eternal truths are spirit and go beyond mere human logic. Believe you me, it was not an easy pill for me to swallow! I struggled like a 'fish out of water' with this whole concept. I began to really study various interpretations of the controversial texts. I began to see that God does keep us secure as long as we are willing to maintain a repentant, obedient faith in His Son.

After much long deliberation, my fairly strong conclusion is that as long as we continue in repentant, obedient faith in Christ we will be kept by His grace. Of course, none of us can do any thing except by the Power and Presence of the Holy Spirit of God working His will through us.

I recognized that it is not me working to keep myself saved, but His Spirit working His works through me as I am willfully allowing Him to do so. Of course, I could supply a couple of texts that seemingly contradict this statement, but, then I have to deal with the dozens that do not.

Now, having said this, I don't believe a person loses their salvation easily. God will chastise and warn the impenitent over a period of time. If the person closes their ears to God's warnings then the Spirit of God will depart from the individual much like Sampson and Saul. Of course, prior to His departure, the individual had grieved Him and quenched the Fire of His Presence within.

Does this mean that the situation is hopeless without the possibility of salvation still? Of course not. As long as there is breath in their lungs there is hope. If this individual still has a sense of conscience that has not been seared they can respond to this by asking God for more humility, repentance, faith, and the return of His Spirit. Of course, recognizing that those who have the Spirit of God  are  children of God.

Having said this, the enemy of our souls will seek to prevent this from happening (to "steal, kill, and destroy.") The longer we rebel against God the harder it is to respond in humble repentant faith before Him through His Son.

I believe the words of Jesus apply to this whole issue that the one "who endures to the end willl be saved.  Again, it is imperative to realize that the works of God are only wrought by the Power of the Spirit (Gal. 5: 15-20, Eph. 6: 10, etc.) It is equally important to realize that Paul's repeated warnings of "not inherit ('ing'-mine) the Kindom of God" (Eph. 5:3-9, Gal. 5: 19-21, I Cor. 6: 9-11,) were written to believers as a warning. John the beloved apostle in Revelation 21: 7-8, gives further clarity that those who practice such things (including idolatry--which could be anything in place of Jesus' Lordship over our lives!) will be "cast into the Lake of fiery sulfur'.

Jesus further stated that if anyone wants to be His follower he should "shoulder his cross daily and follow him (Luke 9:23-27) of course, within the context of forfeiting our own soul if we do not. This begs the question, is it necessary to be a disciple of Christ in order to receive salvation? I believe the answer is an absolute yes. One cannot separate discipleship from evangelism. The often-used phrase "cheap grace' seems to apply to those whose 'gospel' does not include selfless humility producing a repentant, obedient faith. Often ignored by Armenians is the fact that we can do nothing apart from the Presence and ongoing Power of the Holy Spirit.

I believe when one considers this very humbling truth it will bring new meaning to the text often carelessly quoted in I John 1:9, that "If we confess our sins (my emphasis added) He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." Notice the promise is conditional... IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS. This of course was written to believers. One could rightly conclude that if we don't confess our sins, we will not be forgiven. This implies the necessity of an ongoing, humble, repentant faith before a righteous God. By the way, this seems to flatly contradict the whole idea that believers are forgiven for all their sins past, present, and future. It's a daily confession. Proverbs 28:13 adds further clarity to the often quoted I John 1:9 when it says, that "whosever confesses and forsakes" their sins will find mercy. The forsaking part is often overlooked. Jesus said clearly, "Unless we repent (we) will all likewise perish." Sobering words! (Part 1)

(Part 2)

He also said that "Many will say to me on that day 'Lord, Lord' "...but He will reply plainly, "I never knew you" (Matt. 7:21-23). In this same chapter he clearly states that few will be saved and that many will perish (Matt. 7:13-14). Again, it seems to clearly conflict with the notion that all you have to do is pray this little prayer and really mean it. Truly, unless we are reborn of the Spirit we can not enter the Kingdom. This new life requires ongoing nourishment and care. Otherwise, just as a physical body will perish without proper nutrition and care, so will our spirit man. God help us all!

I would commend to anyone who disagrees with me to study and meditate upon two passages that the Triune Lord (Yahweh), states to Ezekiel. Please read Ezekiel 18: 24, 26, Ezekiel 3: 20-21, and Ezekiel 33: 12-20. Has God changed His mind on this just because we are under the renewed covenant, or just because Christ "fulfilled the law and prophets", or because we are not subject to the ceremonial and national laws of ancient Israel? I don't see any Biblical warrant for dismissing this. Truly, God has not changed His mind as I read Scripture. The same God of the old covenant is the God of the new.

Jesus spoke to John the re velator and said to the church at Philadelphia in Revelation 3: 10-11, "Because you have obeyed my command to persevere he would protect them. Later, he commands them to "Hold onto what you have so that no one will take away your crown." The crown is what? (See Revelation 2:10 - "the crown of life" (eternal life). Surely if we don't persevere in repentance, faith in God through Christ, andl obedience in the Power of His Spirit, He declares clearly in Rev. 4: 16 that he will "vomit" or "spit" us out of His mouth! Such sobering words to believers! What does one do with vomit? It is flushed into a sewer. The truth is this analogy is the equivalent of hell. Though the text does not clearly say it in this context.

He also states in Revelation 3: 5 that to those believers in the church of Sardis who walk worthy and our victorious, that He will not erase their names from the book of life, but that he will confess them before the Father and His angels. Sounds like their eternal life is in jeopardy if they don't continue to persevere in Holy Spirit-empowered obedience. Such a conclusions runs counter to the notion of 'once saved, always saved'.

To add further credence to this position, Jesus admonishes in Rev. 2: 10-11 to believers in the church of Smyrna to "Remain faithful..." and then and only then will he "give you ('them'-mine) the crown of life". Then to add fuel to the fire He states to believers in verse 11, that "Whoever is victorious willnot be hurt by the second death". We know from Rev. 20:14, that the "second death' is the "Lake of fiery sufur". Again, the implications are that believers must continue in a humble, repentant faith in God through the Person and work of Christ by the Power of the Holy Spirit; not by our own works of righteousness, but through His mercy He saved us, by the washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

The moment we attempt to work at saving ourselves, and keep ourselves saved, we are pursuing a lost cause. But, when we allow the Spirit of God to continually work His work through us, then we are truly enduring in the works of righteousness and can pass the salvation exam given by John the Apostle in the whole epistle of 1John but underscored in I John 2:3-6, "And how can we be sure that we belong to him? By obeying his commandments. If somone says, 'I belong to God' but doesn't obey God's commandments, that person is a liar and does not live in the truth. But those who obey God's word really do love him. That is the way to know whether or not we live in him. Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Christ did." (NLT)

Admittedly, this a very controversial issue. I know that there are Scriptures that on the surface seem to contradict it. I will admit this. However, could it be that these Scriptures are being misunderstood? This is a question I have honestly asked and overall can affirm and state that I believe my understanding is accurate, and by the way, is consistent with the teaching of the early church. Of course not all those within the early church, but a significant number.

I would welcome an honest response to this from anyone who is willing to do so in a charitable manner. I know I am new to this site and haven't really earned a right to be heard, but since this issue is relevant to my recent experience, I thought I would give a little bit of my perspective. By the way, I believe, there are many Calvinists and Armenians both who are genuinely converted and seek to live for God. I, myself and grateful for the opportunity to dialogue in gentleness and respect.

God Bless us as we faithfully serve Him, and rescue us when we are not! Amen.

Mark S.

Brothers!  It's good to drop by!  I miss the opportunities I had in the past to frequent CU.  I used to think I was busy!  :D  But God is good.   :)

Brother Kintups,

It's great to see new people and ones who are studying God's word to learn His truth.  I will pray for you as you study.  Let me say, that as you ...please make sure that you keep that up!  Here's why:

Most interpretations that a believer can lose their salvation come from the book of Hebrews and are read out of context.  I won't go into it deeper unless you want, but would encourage you to look deeper into this subject.  Personally, I think Calvin was closer.  But, no one's got it all figured out.  It is, as Paul stated often, a mystery.

His,

Kevin  a.k.a. Allinall

Hello Allinall,

Brother Kevin, it's nice to see you again, and I hope this means that you will be visiting more often again. We do miss you and others. I know exactly what you mean in your post. Because I do, I consider Hebrews to be a MOST beautiful book and worthy of considerable study. Putting it into historical and Biblical context makes Hebrews a book that explains many mysteries. Hebrews is involved in many controversies that men have, but it can be the most beautiful and worthwhile Bible Study in the Bible.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Isaiah 25:8  He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

Hello Kintups!

WELCOME!


I sincerely hope that you enjoy Christians Unite, and I look forward to having fellowship with you.

I understand your views, but I don't share them. This doesn't mean that we can't have sweet fellowship - we can! I would simply ask you to take another look at many of the Scriptures you are concentrating on and look at them with some additional thoughts. As an example, some of the Scriptures you are looking at pertain to the Tribulation Period, not this current Age of Grace. There is also considerable confusion between what was taught and believed by Jews, and the differences in teaching after JESUS CHRIST died on the CROSS for our sins.

I firmly believe there are many things that Christians can lose, but Salvation isn't one of them in my opinion. We can lose REWARDS that are over and beyond Salvation. Rewards are for Eternity, but many Christians don't study much about Rewards. To say that a Christian has lost Rewards or a CROWN is not the same thing as saying that a Christian has lost Salvation. The two are separate and distinct, but only a Christian can receive REWARDS. Please notice that the Bible mentions many times, "That your joy might be more full." What Christians do or don't do within the Will of GOD for us definitely impacts our JOY in this short life. The same is true for the quality of our Daily Fellowship with GOD. Christians do suffer loss when they don't obey GOD'S Will, but the loss isn't Salvation. The Apostle Paul explained this the best. Paul wanted to please GOD, regardless of the cost, and Paul showed tremendous determination in finishing what he called the race, the course, and the fight. Paul wanted to hear from GOD in the ETERNAL LIFE to come, "Well done, good and faithful servant." He wanted to hear this from GOD, and Paul was willing to die to hear this. In fact, Paul was martyred and was killed by men because of his obstinate STAND FOR CHRIST that he refused to compromise.

These things are not required for Salvation, but they are the keys for understanding portions of Scripture that appear to contradict each other. There is no contradiction in Scripture.

Love In Christ,
Tom

2 Corinthians 4:1-18 NASB  Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart,  2  but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.  3  And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,  4  in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.  5  For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake.  6  For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.  7  But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves;  8  we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing;  9  persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed;  10  always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body.  11  For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.  12  So death works in us, but life in you.  13  But having the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, "I BELIEVED, THEREFORE I SPOKE," we also believe, therefore we also speak,  14  knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and will present us with you.  15  For all things are for your sakes, so that the grace which is spreading to more and more people may cause the giving of thanks to abound to the glory of God.  16  Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.  17  For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison,  18  while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Friends,

Thank you for your responses. I don't know just how many posts I will make or if I'm up for a long debate. But in response to your statements I must at least address a couple of issues.

First of all, I really have looked at both sides of the issue. As I stated previously, I was a 5-Point Calvinist for a number of years. Unfortunately, when I read Scripture, I tended to 'breeze over' the passages that conflicted with this position, and focus on the ones that seemed to line up precisely with John Calvan's dogma.

It was not until I dared to think outside the proverbial systematic 'box' that I began to take a real look into the text. You could say that I was a man with a mission, a mission to find out what the Scriptures actually state and then formulate my theology accordingly. Of course this is what professional systematic theologians have done for centuries whether the ancient rabbis and their Talmud, or modern seminary professors who write books, treatises and devise think-tank organizations.

Having been reared in a dispensational conservative church, I never really had any desire to question the teaching. I just assumed they were correct and spoke from Siana. When I became an adult (many years ago, now), I sampled church after church, after church, denomination after denomination, and finally years later figured out that on nonessentials no one really knows what there talking about. Just kidding, in part, but there is a point to be made here. We (including myself, at times) think we have all the answers or believe our theological slant is correct, then God comes along and wrecks it at some point.

Of course, all genuine believers who are biblically-literate, have an essential agreement on core doctrines, or eternal verities. Outside of this, there are numerous traditions, slants, beliefs, practices, etc. Surely they all call be correct simultaneously!

So in my journey of understanding, I went back to the Bible with the understanding that it is divinely inspired, infallible, and authoritative. And, it is best understood within its historical, grammatical, canonical, and cultural contexts. Then, in my quest for understanding on the eternal security or insecurity of the believer, I began to under score any Scripture that seemed to address the issue. If it even hinted of it I underlined it. Then, after reading through the Scriptures in this way; I began to notice patterns consistent with one another. For instance, Jesus stated that those who abided in the vine would flourish producing various amounts of fruit. Others, who don't abide in the vine, are cut off and piled up and burned. Other passages in the gospels or epistles that spoke of abiding in Christ were deemed relevant, so I compared and contrasted like the Bereans of old, and began to link them together harmoniously. I literally began to see a whole new picture of the security of the believer than I had previously understood by reading them through the grid of my church or tradition.

Then, I examined the texts that are most often used as proofs for eternal security, and noticed that only a few of them presented any real challenge to my view. Then with further reading and study, I recognized that those who are abiding in the Spirit daily will not be plucked out of the Father and Son's hands. But those who are disobedient, God will find no pleasure in them. They will be cut-off as Jesus said.

Another thing that I dont do is read the New Testament with the mind set that a certain book or chapter was only for believers in a certain era of church history. My Bible declares that "All Scriptures is God breathed, and is profitable for teaching for reproof, for training in righteousness..." It's a dangerous thing to pick and choose what I deem as still relevant or applicable today. For instance, many today state that repentance (change of mind resulting in a change of conduct) is not necessary for salvation. They say that John the Baptist and Jesus' ministry were before Pentecost, so it doesn't apply for us today. Has the God of Israel changed His mind on the nature of sin? Has He now declared in 2008 that it is not necessary to stop sinning? Certainly, we can only do this in the Power of the Holy Spirit. Other wise, it is us attempting to work are way to God.

Faith is a weighty word in the Bible. In the whole Bible, it seems to mean more than trust cling to or reply upon. It also means contrition, brokenness, repentance, obedience. Faith without works is dead, void, useless, empty. All of these are works of the Spirit. It's a package deal, granted that manifests over time, with varying degrees, from person-to-person. So is it a one-time deal? No. It's a daily death to self and rebirth to God in Christ. That is why Jesus stated we must take up our crosses daily and follow Him.

 I have known people (as a part-time chaplain) who have told me that "Oh yes, I prayed to receive Christ back on such and such a date." "Really, I ask. So you're telling me that you have the Holy Spirit?" "Oh yes!" they reply. Then they go onto tell me that there living with another woman, on on the verge of their third divorce, and dont have the slightest hunger for God's Word. The church is full of such people! By the way, I must judge myself by this same standard! And, I try to do that. But, many may have walked with God and truly been born of the Spirit at some point in their life, but just like the parable of the sower, they walked away from God because of pleasure, the cares of the world, or the enemy stealing the seed of the gospel after a period of time. (Part I)

My point is this, we are all susceptible to this in our lives if we take are eyes off Christ. The passages I posted from Ezekiel are still applicable today because God has not changed. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Please read them with an open mind.

I know a fellow chaplain who assures a man he knows that he is a true believer heading for heaven because as some point in his life he prayed a prayer to receive Christ. The man is currently addicted to drugs ('pharmakia' in the list of sins within the context of hell-fire in the book of Revelation), a womanizer, and habitually is arrested for misconduct. Do you think it's possible that he would fit within the context of Paul's description that "neither fornicators, adulterers, effeminate, etc...will have any share in the kingdom of heaven"? Obviously paraphrased. Some have taught that this is simply a loss of reward. To them I would ask, "What is the opposite of inheriting the Kingdom of Heaven? Answer: Inheriting the Kingdom of darkness. What is the ultimate outcome of those in the kingdom of darkness? The Lake of Fire.

What about some key leaders in the church who walked with God for many years, then get caught up in the practice of homosexuality? Are they eternally secure? Not according to Paul's lists, not according to the apostle John. Maybe they were at one point, but the enemy gained a foot hold, and now they are a lover of the world (the lusts of the flesh, eyes, and pride of life) and John says in his first epistle that they are an enemy of God and that they have no love for God.

I for one,  refuse to reinterpret, twist, omit, or deny a passage that doesn't fit a preconceived notion of whom or whatever. I deal with this all the time in the mission agency I work through. They would prefer we "walked the line" and not talk about these things, and just get them to 'pray the prayer'. What prayer? Was that Jesus or Paul's mission? To get the Jews or Gentiles of their day to pray a prayer? No, Paul said that the message he had for both Jews and Gentiles was one of repentance from sin and of faith in God through our Lord Jesus Christ. (In Acts on two occasions.)

This prefabricated prayer concept is so unbliblcal and unlike Christ or the apostles. I certainly am not saying that people have not genuinely repented and have been brought to an obedient faith in Christ initiated by this kind of technique. But, it seems we overall have turned pushed technique above the message itself. What in the world have we done to the message of the gospel? It's now user-friendly and requires no real commitment on anyone's part. Yet the Bible still affirms that "the unrighteous will not see God." Maybe this is why Jesus said "many would say 'Lord, Lord," and then they would be cast out of His Presence. This is unpopular within the evangelical-fundamental churches today. But again, it's still in the Bible. John MacArthur's duo on the gospel of Christ and the apostles is so relevant to this discussion and in my opinion is a prophetic word; though admittedly we would differ on the matter of eternal security.

So, all in all, I take the text of Scripture very seriously. I don't focus on just the Hebrews 6 or 10 passages or just Peter. I can go to nearly every epistle and find proof for my position, including Romans of all places! The 'Romans Road' as is commonly understood, is missing a few key elements. But that's another discussion altogether.

I certainly am not trying to be argumentative for the sake of an argument, but am passionate because I believe that we as teachers in the church will be held highly accountable for how we live and what we teach. The eternal souls of men, woman and young people are at stake. Do we really still believe this in the church today? Why is hell so unpopular? I certainly don't like the subject, but it's still in the Bible, and was the topic of discussion in Jesus' sermons on a frequent basis.

Anyway, I respect your views having been there myself. I commend a book to you that in no way shaped my thinking, but was helpful in confirming afterward what I had come to believe on my own through my own study. It is entitled, "The Believer's Conditional Security" by Daniel D. Corner, published by Evangelical Outreach.  I certainly don't like the way he attacks some people (villifying them) in his ministry, but the essence of his belief on this issue is consistent with my own, and is written very concise and comprehensive in this book (full of Scripture!)  So, even if you don't agree I commend it to you as a good read and exercise in understanding.

Thanks for your time, and understanding, even if we disagree. There's certainly a cluster of essentials we certainly can and do agree on. And, in this common bond I rejoice. In my opinion, there's not much time left, and we need to do as this website says, 'Christians Unite'. Persecution is inevitable in the not to distant future for us. So we need to be of one mind and heart in the Person and work of Christ. Amen.

In the love of Jesus for His Church,

Mark S.

Meh. That sums it up for me. Here's something the military has taught me. It has ingrained into me the fundamental belief that no matter how we theologically and apologetically discuss the differing schools of thought, it all comes full circle to one crucial question: Did Christ exist in the capacity as Servant, King, Lion,Lamb,God and Son of God? Yes. Following this thought, we are faced with the question next: Did this "King of the Jews" die and was buried? Yes. Then the fundamental link that holds all of christianity together is the fundamental understanding that there is some measure of faith that is placed (to the Christian, Undeniably) in the fact that Christ died ONCE, was buried ONCE, remained in the Tomb, to be Raised by the Power of the Holy Spirit, to be seated at the right hand of the Father. It is by this knowledge of the sacrifice that was made (given by the Holy Spirit because this wisdom is of God) and the blood that was shed that covers all of our sins. All that being said: each person will have their own systematic theology that forms the basis of their belief system. Should we let that come between us? No. I have learned that there is a diverse nature in the matters of Theology, but the one common factor is a belief in a higher power (God) and His Son (Jesus) who came and took the form of man, but was God, and He lived among us without blemish, only to be put to death as a sacrifice, so that such perfect blood could cleanse us from sins. Romans says this: Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide(Q) never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother.

It reminds me of the song "In Christ Alone." When I go into battle I think of that song.

n Christ alone my hope is found;
He is my light, my strength, my song;
This cornerstone, this solid ground,
Firm through the fiercest drought and storm.
What heights of love, what depths of peace,
When fears are stilled, when strivings cease!
My comforter, my all in all—
Here in the love of Christ I stand.

In Christ alone, Who took on flesh,
Fullness of God in helpless babe!
This gift of love and righteousness,
Scorned by the ones He came to save.
Till on that cross as Jesus died,
The wrath of God was satisfied;
For ev'ry sin on Him was laid—
Here in the death of Christ I live.

There in the ground His body lay,
Light of the world by darkness slain;
Then bursting forth in glorious day,
Up from the grave He rose again!
And as He stands in victory,
Sin's curse has lost its grip on me;
For I am His and He is mine—
Bought with the precious blood of Christ.

No guilt in life, no fear in death—
This is the pow'r of Christ in me;
From life's first cry to final breath,
Jesus commands my destiny.
No pow'r of hell, no scheme of man,
Can ever pluck me from His hand;
Till He returns or calls me home—
Here in the pow'r of Christ I'll stand.

So there you have it. In the end, those who experience the Power of Christ. We will be greeted in heaven "Well done my faithful servant."

My God is Sovereign, I am nothing without my God
My will is bound by His will as I seek to fulfill His will as He is my King.

Just my thoughts.

Joshua

AMEN! - Beautiful posts ALL!

Hello Brother Joshua, it's nice to see you on the forum again and read your posts.

Our differences on this subject are only worthy of discussion - not debate - and certainly not anything to get upset over. I'll end my part of this by saying that there are no contradictions in the Holy Bible from cover to cover. GOD'S WORD is perfectly woven together from beginning to end. What may look like a contradiction to men is not. The Bible itself answers all of the questions perfectly without any other books, denominational teaching, or traditions of men. This is the joy of searching the Scriptures and ignoring nothing. There are many other issues that I didn't mention and probably won't. All of the Promises of GOD will be kept perfectly. What we can't do - CHRIST CAN!

Love In Christ,
Tom

 

Amen Tom.


Kintups.

I can only add to this discussion by point out a few things. 

First is that you should always interpret the more complexes verses of the Bible in light of the simple ones.  If there is a simple verse that says the point quite clearly and a more complex verse that you could interpret a different way, then do not, interpret in the light of the simple verse.

Jesus said that no man may pluck us from our Father's hands, thus no man may remove us from that salvation.  Jesus said that once we drink of the water He has to offer, we will never thirst.  It says never, not until we get thirsty again, or until we do not want to drink for a while or anything of that nature, it says never.  Jesus also stated that the life He is giving is eternal, which means forever, this is not a life that has a time limit, or one that we can throw away or anything of that nature, it is eternal.  Those are some simple verses that should be used to help shed light on some of the more complex verses that you are using.

Second.  You brought up some good examples of men that we have seen or heard of that have done the "fall from grace" and try to use that as an example of someone who has lost their salvation.  But let me ask you this, as Paul had written that all those people will not inherit the kingdom of heaven, what do we know of the men who were crucified with Jesus?  One was a thief, and Jesus himself said that he would dine with Him in heaven that night. 

You are right that we should see a change in people once they accept Christ.  And you are right that it is more than saying a prayer, it is a life commitment.  However accepting Christ does not make us perfect.  Paul also wrote a simple verse that stated "all men are sinners and fall short of the glory of God."  It does not say, unsaved men, or men that do not know Christ, it says all men, and that would include Paul himself, along with Peter, John, James, and the rest of them.  And we do, each and every one of us are sinners and we do fall short of God's glory. If you looked at my life since turning it over to Christ you would still have to say that I am not deserving of heaven.

The concept of losing our salvation means that Christ died in vain.  If we could get and lose our salvation simply by our actions then Christ would not have needed to come to earth and die.  We could have just followed more rules set forth by God.  If we could lose and gain our salvation by what we do the Christ would not have had to conquer death and rise 3 days later, we could have simply had another 10 commandments. 

Just some thoughts on that subject.  Have a blessed Christmas.

ARE YOU SAYING THAT ONCE YOU EXCEPT CHRIST AS YOU SAVIOR YOU ARE SAVED NO MATTER WHAT EVEN IF YOU STILL SIN?

Actually we get salvation. We don't get saved until we die.
Therefore, once we get salvation, we can't lose it.

Hello child_of_light,

Welcome to Christians Unite forums.

The answer to that question is yes but first let me explain that this is not talking about willful, "I'm gonna do it no matter what" type of sinning. A born again Christian will not willfully sin without abandon nor without conviction of any sin. A person that has truthfully accepted Christ as their Saviour will have the desire to please Him in all that they do and say. As scripture says "the flesh is weak." We are also told that no man is without sin. If we do slip up and sin it does not mean that we lose our salvation. Jesus tells us that nothing can take us out of the hands of the Father.

Amen Pastor Roger!

I have read that once you are born of god you cannot sin.
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:26-27
If we come to christ and really be born of god then we confess our sins, because we have the knowledge to know what the sin is that we have repented from. 

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
 3 , that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life
Romans 6:1-4

And by saying this grace only covers sin if we are dead in our sins. And if be dead from sin how can we live in sin anymore.


12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Romans 6:12-13
If we walk in the spirit and not in the flesh then sin will not rule us.

17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:17

 I read if we are truly born of god we cannot sin.

Now Iam not trying to start a fight and be a trouble maker. I know all have sinned and come short, and if we say we have not sinned then we deceive ourselves. What I am saying is that Christ's blood is covering for our sins, and made a way for us to repent from our sins but not to remain in sin.

Lets Read the Whole matter

We know For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8-9

Now, Jesus Died for Me You and the Whole World, There is No Work we can do, we cannot Forgive our Own Sins,

And by this, We Come to Jesus by Faith, And We Repent and Sin no more John 8:11 and by this we are Forgiven and we are Under Grace

(by grace ye are saved;) Eph 2:5

But when you Remain in Your Sins, you are NOT under Grace,

you are Still In your Sins , As it is Written Grace and Sin Does not Abound Romans 6:1

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? GOD ForBid Romans 6:1

When we Come Too Jesus, Repent of all of our Sinful Works of the Flesh,

That ye present your bodies a living sacrifice , holy, acceptable unto God,

And be not conformed to this world:

but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind,

that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Romans 12:1-2

That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man,

which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Ephesians 4:22

Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 1 Peter 1:16

If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. let no man deceive you,

We know that if we are Righteous as God is Righteous we cannot Sin, God is no Sinner, 1 John 2:29 1 John 3:7
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: ,

1 John 2:29 - we cannot Sin ,is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. (Gal 2:17) (1 Jn 3:7)

Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
By This We Repent and Sin no more, For it is Written

When Jesus Forgave Sins, Jesus Told them Go and Sin no more John 8:11 ,

When Jesus healed People, Jesus Said thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee. John 5:14

GOD Said

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine:

the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezek 18:4

But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed , and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

All his transgressions that he hath committed,

they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Ezek 18:21-

When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness[/b], and commit iniquity
and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die:

because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered ; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Ezek 3:20

Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man

that the righteous sin not , and he doth not sin,

he shall surely live , because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul. Ezek 3:21

By This We Repent and Sin no more, For it is Written , When Jesus Forgave Sins, Jesus Told them Go and Sin no more John 8:11 , And When Jesus healed People, Jesus Said thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee. John 5:14

Elijah101
That is how I see it also, If be a new creature of god, then the old man sin is dead and buried, then we are born into a new creature that does not sin.
By faith we can do this. This is our hope to become a new creature. And Christ is the door way.

Unfortunately there are many that attempt to put us back under the law by adding to or twisting scripture in such a manner as to bring about that understanding. Good works are not a requirement to gain salvation nor are they a requirement to maintain salvation. Good works are evidence (fruit thereof) of salvation not a requirement to maintain it. Any works that we may do on our own for our own personal gain are as nothing. It is all for Him and by Him.


Rom 6:22  But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Sure I understand that we can not do any work to save ourselves, we cant die for ourselves. Christ died once for our sin and threw his work we can be saved. I disagree that we can still sin if we are truly saved by grace. I believe grace saves us once we have repented from sin.

How does a person twist the scripture's around to fit there own believes?

The bible tells us the truth and the truth is you cannot sin if you are born of god. 

The law is for sinners and if you don't sin your not under the law.

I just read the bible and the bible said if I am saved by grace I cannot sin. Now "man" tells me I can.

I will believe Gods word before man's.

Now I am open to discussion on this matter. If you will use the bible and prove that you can sin and be born of god.

Are you perfect, without sin?

1Jn 1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10  If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Note that John says "We" here. He included himself, a born again Christian, an Apostle of Jesus Christ.

Gal 6:3  For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

Isa 64:6  But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.


It is not "if you don't sin" that removes us from the law. It is the shed blood of Jesus Christ through the grace of God, that covers our sin.

Rom 5:9  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Eph 1:7  In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Amen Roger.

Child of Light.  You would be very boastful to try and say that as a Christian you do not sin.  As a saved person have you ever driven over the speed limit?  Have you ever rolled through a stop sign?  Breaking the laws of the land is considered a sin. 

There was only one man who ever walked the earth that is without sin, and that was the God-Man of Christ.  When Paul wrote that "all have sinned" it means all and not just a few, or most.  Paul just as John did, included himself in the classification of sinner.  I turned my soul over to God 22+ years ago.  For 22+ years my soul's destiny has been to go to heaven.  But I can tell you right now that I have sinned.  I went through a time of drinking, womanizing, gambling, and almost anything else I could think of to have fun and not glorify God.  But I knew my soul was secure.  But Satan took me and was using me to be a terrible witness for God. 

No I have to say that I still sin.  I try very hard not too, and when I do I feel terrible about it when I realize it.  However I know that God knows my heart and my heart is good.  And He does forgive. 

Amen Brother Tom!  Hebrews is a very sobering book.  Our Pastor is currently preaching through it on Sunday Mornings.  Feel free to listen in...

http://www.grbible.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=index&catid=&topic=9 (http://www.grbible.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=index&catid=&topic=9)

Yup!  Beware, however that you "...make your calling and election sure" as Paul warns.  Security is not a license to sin.  If we treat it as such, we must look to our faith and see if it is truly real faith.  "We are saved by faith alone, but not by a faith that stands alone."  True believers have that faith.  They may not consistantly walk by that faith, and may put too much confidence in sight.  But it is God Who works in us the work He began in us.  Never rely on self, but never be idle in any area of obedience.   :)

AMEN!!

Very well said in layman terms,  brother. :D :D :D

Another Amen to that.

Thanks Brother!  How you been?

 :)

Brothers and Sisters,

I just finished reading many beautiful posts in this thread, and it made me think of many Precious Portions of Scripture and Promises from GOD. It made me reflect on WHO has STRENGTH, RIGHTEOUSNESS, HOLINESS, SPOTLESSNESS, AND ABSOLUTE PURITY! It's CHRIST - not me and not any other Christian I've ever met. If we depended on ourselves for Salvation, Salvation would not be possible. BUT, we depend on CHRIST - not ourselves. We don't have any RIGHTEOUSNESS of our own, but CHRIST has enough to share with all of us. Any RIGHTEOUSNESS we have is put to our account by CHRIST and belongs to HIM - not us. It's the Law of Faith in JESUS CHRIST that has set us free from the Curse of Sin and Death, and disobedience of the Law of Faith is the ONLY Unforgivable SIN. I give THANKS for this because my ONLY goodness is IN CHRIST - not myself. I fail often, but CHRIST never fails. Any good that I do in the NAME of the LORD is for LOVE and APPRECIATION of CHRIST - not Salvation or maintenance of Salvation. CHRIST keeps us through HIS POWER and is not willing for a single member of HIS FLOCK to be left behind. All GOOD THINGS of ETERNAL WORTH AND SECURITY ARE IN CHRIST because ONLY HE can possess those things. As Christians, we are HIS Eternal Possessions, and HE has the POWER to keep us. When we grow in STRENGTH - it's HIS STRENGTH - not our strength. When we sin, it's OUR SIN - not HIS. We are seen IN AND THROUGH THE RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HOLINESS OF CHRIST because we are IN HIM, and we don't possess these attributes on our own. WE MUST HAVE CHRIST - OR WE HAVE NOTHING!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Acts 26:22  Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

Psalms 143:8 NASB  Let me hear Your lovingkindness in the morning; For I trust in You; Teach me the way in which I should walk; For to You I lift up my soul.

When God came into my heart and saved me, he saved my life. Now knowing all that I do about God and all the blessing in my life time I like were I am, save and will always be.

I have to add my Amen to that as well

In a previous post, 'Kintups' cited a book by Dan Corner, entitled, 'The Believer's Conditional Security.' In this book, which incidentally allows for free copying no strings attached so that people will not perish for lack of knowledge; he makes the following thought-provoking comment:

" Ponder This...

OSAS(Once Saved, always saved) people who especially subscrib to the Calvinistic Westminster Confession see no contradiction in saying we can have full assurance now; then turning around to say if we ever fall away from the faith or ever become apostate, even after a convincing testimony, we prove we were never saved as we thought we were!

In other words, if you turn away from Christ at the very end of your life, even after a convincing testimony for Christ of many years, you show at that point in time that your faith was not real, as you thought it was, but only spurious. Then on the other hand, if that same person comes back he may have a real faith after all! But only his spiritual condition at the very end of his life, as he takes his last breath, will reveal if his faith was the saving kind or not.

Though denied, the essence of the OSAS moderate view, embraced by (Bible teacher's name left out) and others, is: If you ever had true faith, you're saved, but you can never really know until the very end of your life that you had true faith to be saved. Again, they are apprehensive to admit to this, but it's consistent with their view. Remember, if their remains any opportunity in time to become apostate, and one does even after a convincing testimony of many years, then he show he was never really saved to begin with, that is, unless he comes back to the Lord.

The bottom line in this is nothing more than double talk about the full assurance that people like (Bible teacher's name left out) says one can have. Salvation assurance, as OSAS adherents understand it, cannot in reality coexist with the possibility of becoming apostate and thereby proving such a person was never saved to begin with, even at the very beginning when he had a convincing testimony! So in spite of what such OSAS proponents may say, they really don't have any salvation assurance at all, except in name only because time still exists for them to possibly become apostate!..."

Very thought-provoking. Would appreciate your comments.

lightpost 7000

Hello kintups70 - lightpost7000,

In a matter of minutes, you were watched requesting one account being deleted and establishing your new account of lightpost7000. Your new user name changes NOTHING, and the answers are the same in this thread and several others. I could care less about the book being mentioned, and I doubt that anyone else does either because we have the Holy Bible. GOD'S WORD is the only measurement of TRUTH. Man's tags, labels, and denominations wouldn't have anything to do with this question either.

So, you got another mention of the book in, and nothing has changed. I'm not interested in the book in any form, and any links offering sales will be deleted, regardless of ways to get a free copy. Just read the forum rules about advertising and soliciting. If you want to advertise the book, you might try the FREE classifieds on Christians Unite or other advertising methods - NOT THE FORUM.

Edited to Add:  The forum puts a cookie on your computer for identification and give you access for log-ins. The moderator tools show this AND MORE. So, you need to erase your browser cache and delete all your cookies if you want to try this again without being caught IMMEDIATELY. Other moderator tools take longer.

Hello kintups70 & lightpost7000............. You have been BUSTED!!

Brothers and Sisters,

I think that I'll take this opportunity to add a few questions and statements for everyone to think about. All will be based on the PREMISE that a person has been TRULY BORN AGAIN FROM ABOVE ---- THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD LIVES IN THE PERSON'S HEART, SO THE SEAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IS ON THE PERSON'S HEART ---- THE TIME PERIOD OF SALVATION IS UNDER THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD, NOT THE TRIBULATION PERIOD AND NOT THE KINGDOM AGE!

1 - Has this person received the PROMISES OF GOD about his or her SALVATION? YES -- MOST DEFINITELY - AT THE POINT OF SALVATION! What does GOD mean when HE Promises Eternal Life? Can GOD lie, and does GOD ever withdraw HIS Promises? NO!

John 3:15-18 KJV  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.  16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.  17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.  18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


2 - Is Salvation earned or maintained by a man?  NO! Is Salvation a GIFT from GOD based on the completed WORK of JESUS CHRIST on the CROSS?  YES! Is Salvation obtained by FAITH ALONE IN CHRIST ALONE? YES! Was FAITH IN GOD the same method of Salvation for the Old Testament Saints like Abraham and King David? YES! Did they lose their Salvation if they sinned? NO! Did King David lose his Salvation after committing the death-penalty offense of ADULTERY? NO! Does GOD take HIS GIFTS OR PROMISES BACK? NO!

Romans 6:23 KJV  For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


3 - Is Salvation based in any way at all on the good works of man? NO! The THIEF on the CROSS next to JESUS CHRIST had ZERO GOOD works and no time to do good works because he was about to die. All the THIEF had was BELIEF - FAITH in CHRIST, and CHRIST Promised HIM Eternal Life right then.

Ephesians 2:4-10 KJV  But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,  5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)  6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:  7  That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.  8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:  9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.  10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


4 - What happens if a TRULY BORN-AGAIN CHRISTIAN has a stroke, gets Alzheimer's, goes insane, gets dementia, or otherwise loses the capability of thinking straightly? I'm obviously talking about Salvation? Does anything happen to the Salvation of that BORN-AGAIN CHRISTIAN? NO! They are just as SAVED as ever!

5 - Can anything pluck this Christian OUT of SALVATION? NO!

John 10:28-29 KJV  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.  29  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


See the next post for HOW a LOST PERSON can receive this FREE AND ETERNAL GIFT FROM GOD!

1:  Romans 3:10 NASB  as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

2:  Romans 3:23  NASB  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

3:  Romans 5:12  NASB  Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

4:  Romans 6:23  NASB  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

5:  Romans 1:18  NASB  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

6:  Romans 3:20  NASB  because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

7:  Romans 3:27  NASB  Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

8:  Romans 5:8-9  NASB  But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

9:  Romans 2:4  NASB  Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

10:  Romans 3:22  NASB  even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

11:  Romans 3:28  NASB  For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

12:  Romans 10:9  NASB  that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

13:  Romans 4:21  NASB  and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.

14:  Romans 4:24 NASB  but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,

15:  Romans 5:1  NASB  Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

16:  Romans 10:10  NASB  for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

17:  Romans 10:13  NASB  for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Black-eyed-peas, and others,

Glad to see you read my post. For starters, out of necessity, I needed to change my email address from the previous(kintups) to the one you now see, for reasons completely unrelated to this website. I am reorganizing my email addresses. One of them is so full in the provider's database with emails (from many years) that I needed to start over again with a fresh new email address. My kintups70 address is being used now strictly for communication with the homeless advocacy network I communicate with daily. So, feel free to email me personally on the following address at lightpost7000@yahoo.com if your so inclined. I have nothing to hide, and no hidden agendas. I didn't see any real reason to explain my connection with the kintups post. Certainly, I did NOT state that it was not me; I simply stated that in a previous post, kintups stated... So no harm done.

As for Dan Corner's book, I am not soliciting his book. I was recently given a copy of this book by a good friend. I read it with an open mind and open Bible.
As for not needing any other book than the Bible; I agree to a point. Certainly, my faith is built solely upon the written word of God. Yet, isn't it rather ironic that this web site advertises and promotes magazines, books (KP. Yohannans book of which I read years ago, and thought was wonderful!), etc. all of which is found in your average Christian bookstore---not that this is wrong. But who among us would state that we don't use lexicons, concordances, and even biblically-based books regularly to help us think through Scripture and other issues? The average bible college or seminary charges an enormous amount of money for books in an effort to understandTHE book. So I am about doubtful of the strength of your statement.

It is rather strange that you did not comment on the substance of the excerpt that I typed (not pasted!) and no one even bothered to answer the questions that were raised. After all, this is a 'debate forum' or at least is so titled. Why does one become angry when another simply challenges a proposition that has been stated repeatedly; namely that it is unbiblical to say that one can lose their salvation?

If you read my first two posts (under kintups) carefully; please note that I used namely Scripture in support of my arguments. The fact that you state you really don't care about what this book by Corner says tells me pretty clearly that you are not open to true debate, other wise you would have answered the questions raised by Corner in the post.

For those of you wondering, I have absolutely no connection with Dan Corner or his ministry. I've never talked with or met the man. If however, I would have quoted someone in favor of the Calvinistic dogma, I highly doubt that I would have been opposed so sharply. Personally, I don't like the way Corner criticizes other Bible teachers and even in my opinion, villifyng them. To me this is not right. Yet, he does clearly state that he wants no one to perish in their sins because of a false hope. The truth is Scripture admonishes us to "Examine ourselves to see whether we are in the faith." If this causes someone to examine themselves then truly this is quite possibly eternally beneficial.

As for quoting from books; fine, I wont do that anymore. However, if anyone else quotes from a book or article(other than the Bible) on this site, even if it is consistent with your beliefs, I would hope that you would just as sharply rebuke them.

Believe me, after years of believing in the 'OSAS' ideology, it made me very uncomfortable too to realize that I may have been wrong on my understanding of this matter. Needles to say, I am not in this to convert people to my way of thinking as some of you may think. But I am seeking to only kindly dialogue with people on this and numerous other issues in my life before God.

Striving for agape,

kintups70/lightpost7000

You did make it sound like you and kin weren't the same person. It wouldn't have hurt to say you were kin.

Very nice sob story btw. I am very familiar with these stories that raises themselves and puts down others.

Read what is already posted, the vast majority being original - not cut and paste. So, just repeat the answers already given, and you have the answers. In other words - DITTO - DITTO - nothing has still changed and won't. DITTO on BUSTED also - DITTO on not interested - DITTO on DITTO. If you want another DITTO on what's already been answered by many WITH ORIGINAL POSTS, just ask for another DITTO. Use the forum search and you'll have enough material to study for a long time- NEARLY ALL ORIGINAL. Just in case, I've decided to go ahead and give you another DITTO now, so DITTO. So, you already have your answer if you ask again. Don't push it on being sneaky or playing games. You won't get any other warnings. If you're really interested in this topic, study what's already on the forum.

I do realize that this is the debate section and it is more than obvious that some people love to argue theology. Of all the subjects in the Bible, Salvation is the most important one. It is not a subject that Christians should be bickering over like small children that insist they are right and all others are wrong. Salvation is not only the most important subject but it is also the most clear.

The parable of the sower is oft misunderstood with those thinking that an individual that "dureth awhile" is being called someone that is saved. If that seed is not placed in the good ground then it is doomed from the start. It receives not the nourishment that it needs and in fact is dying before it even begins.

Jesus Christ is our mainstay. If we do not build on that foundation (the good ground) then we are indeed wasting our time. We are like a fish out of water, flailing about without hope, attempting to make it on our own. Jesus Christ has promised us that if we believe on Him that no one or nothing can take us from His hand. NO ONE OR NOTHING! That includes us.

I've heard that some say "but I don't have enough faith." It is not about a whole lot of faith. Remember what Jesus Christ said about having "faith as a grain of mustard seed." Again I say it is not about a whole lot of faith. It is about the works of Him within us. He did it all, it is about His works and none of our own.

Thank you Brother

Kintups or whatever.

First let me state this.  It is quite obvious that you started the new email address with the express intent to create a new identity.  Because you can change your email address in your profile.  So just consolidating email addresses is no reason to create a new account.  And this is also supported by your first post under new alias where you refer to Kintups in the third person and not as if that identity was yours thus you again are apparently attempting to create a new profile.  I am not going to say that you were attempting a deception, because only God knows your heart.  But I can say that I take anything you say with a grain of salt because to me it appears you were trying to deceive me.

As far as your argument let me ask a simple question.  If I can lose my salvation and gain it again, then who is actually doing the work of gaining and losing it?  Under the Biblical concept of OSAS God is in control of a persons salvation.  Under any other mentality the control of salvation is put into the hands of the person.  And THAT is strictly unBiblical.