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Hi, I'm not sure where to post this question that is nagging at me so, I thought I would ask it here.  Do Christian Jews need to follow the laws?  I understand that  Messianic ( I think that's what they call themselves) Jews say that they were never told not to follow the law, it's only us, the Gentiles that don't have to follow it.... is there really a distinction between Jews and Gentiles in this respect now that Jesus has offered himself up?

We see Paul telling us in Rom 10 that there is no difference for salvation between the Jew and the Greek. In Acts 15 we see this question arise in the early stages of Pauls ministry and him going to the other Apostles in Jerusalem with this question. Peter tells us in verse 9 that God put no difference between the Jews and Gentiles, that we are saved by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ and not of works for ALL have sinned. Peter goes on to say that we should not put such a yoke upon the neck of the disciples. In saying this Peter was also saying that such a burden should not be placed on the Jews anymore than it is not placed on the Gentiles. A yoke that even the Jewish fathers could not bear.

Rom 10:12  For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.



Act 15:4  And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
Act 15:5  But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6  And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Act 15:7  And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8  And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9  And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10  Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11  But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.




Rom 3:20  Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21  But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22  Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25  Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26  To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27  Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Thanks Pastor, from my understanding a messianic Jew would answer you that these verse do not free a Jew from the law on the Gentile... that the law doesn't save but it must still be followed... I'm a bit confussed by this and am not representing their thoughts well... but I would like to have a solid biblical response to them.

Acts 15 is an excellant answer on this. The Pharisees were a sect of the Jews, the Apostles were also Jews yet the Apostles most clearly stated that they were not under the law but under grace. Peters statements in these verses were directed at Jews and was in answer to the Pharisees question on the law and grace.

We see all through the New Testament where the Apostles did not observe all the feasts and rituals of the Jews. Peters dream in Acts 10 shows us that the law of unclean beasts was done away with. Many other verses in the NT also show us as the specific statement that there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile when it comes to the law and grace.

There are many people that will see what they want in the Bible and will not read it in it's entirety, applying only those portions that they wish to apply. Man also has a tendency to wish to place themselves above others, making themselves more righteous than others.

 

I'm pretty sure that in Acts 15 they are talking about Christians who are not Jews...  according to M. Jews they were never told not to obey the law, in fact that it's called an everlasting covenant, that Jesus obeyed the law. (not the man made rules about the law such as not helping someone on the sabbath)

Yes in Acts 15:3 they are talking about the conversion of Gentiles.

However in Acts 15: 9-10 they mention here that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile and that not even the Jews could keep the laws. If what the Messianic Jews are saying is true then even the Gentiles must keep those laws and for one thing to be circumcised and this we know from this same chapter that  is not true.

The book of Hebrews was specifically written to Jewish Christians. We can tell this by the way it was written. The information contained in Hebrews was to those that were conversant in the Septuagint translation of the Old Testament. Gentiles would not fit that situation.

The book of Hebrews tells them

Heb 7:12  For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Throughout the book of Hebrew it speaks of the law being changed and done away. Unfortunately the Christian Jews also reject this isea and say that this book was written to the Gentiles (which had no knowledge of the original laws? ).





As I said the people will believe what they will having had it pounded into their minds as did the Pharisees which put more value into those things evidenced with the eyes than those things within the heart.

If talking to a Jewish convert one of the first things I wouild tell them is that there is no such thing as a Christian Jew.  Not once will you find that term in the Bible, why...because it is contradictory.  You cannot be both a Christian and a Jew.  The Jewish faith does honor the same God, but does not recognize the Savior, while a Christian does. 

PR has already brought up many different verses and book that were written specifically for Jewish converts.  Because they had many many questions knowing that their original faith was of God and their new faith is still of God.  Many of the Jews of that time were expecting a savior that would lift them up from Rome and restore their tribe to it's former glory. 

Romans 1-3 also does a great job of showing that both the Jews and the Gentiles are under the same judgement.  That the Jews are not better than anyone else.  Basically that all mankind is under the same judgement of God.  With the coming of Jesus all were made equal again and the only way to be lifted up now was through Him. 

Excellant point, Brother.

I disagree.I believe that we are still told to follow the Law.Yes it says that we are under the Law of Grace,But I believe the Law of Grace is this.In the Law it says if don't follow it or if you break it,this will happen.I believe that since God knows we are going to blow it again & again,that it takes the or else out of the Law,but I that we are still supposed to follow them.  There ARE Christian Jews Brother Jerry.You sound like you just came from the Inquisition when they said You're a Christian or you're a Jew.


                                        Yours in Yeshua,
                                        Curious

Brother Jerry is correct and it has nothing to do with the ideas that were had during the inquisition. When either a Jew or Greek or anyone else becomes a Christian they are a Christian, a member of the body of Christ.

Rom 10:12  For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

He said if a Jew becomes a Christian that he/she is not a Jew anymore.
Does that mean when you became a Christian that you weren't
an American anymore ?


                          Love in Yeshua,
                          Curious

He was using it in the context of one whose religion is Judaism.

The word Jew originally meant those that were from the kingdom of Judah, only one tribe of all of Israel.    There is no kingdom of Judah. So in the context you used it would not apply either.

Yes, it has also become a word to signify all those that are of Hebrew descent but that is indicating a race of people not a nation.

"For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel"





 

PR is correct.  The term Jew is derived of one of two ways.  A birthright, being born of the tribe of Judah.  Or one who adheres to the Jewish religion.  This is what being a Jew has become over the past 2000+ years.  It used to be very very important for Jews to trace their ancestory back.  Which is one reason why we see the lineage of Jesus through Joseph as well as Mary going all the way back to David.  I do not think there is anyone alive today that can truly trace their lineage back that far.

Today to be a Jew is more in following the religious aspect of the Jewish faith.  Now the Jewish faith does not acknowledge that the Messiah has come yet.  They are still waiting for the time of the Messiah and his first coming.  Jesus was at best a prophet to the Jews, at worst he was a heretic.  But it was certain that He was not the Messiah. 

Being a Jew, who does not believe that the Messiah has come, and a Christian, who believes Christ is the Messiah, is contradictory so in that context cannot exist.  So the only other alternative is that a Jewish Christian is a Christian who is born of the tribe of Judah...and I can live with that, however I seriously doubt that anyone can trace their lineage back that far.

Hmmm - this is a complicated question, but I believe it's a very important one because there are more 'Jewish Believers' in Jesus (Yeshua) than ever before in history! I think this is wonderful!

I am a gentile, but I do visit Messianic synagogues quite often here in Florida, and previously when living in NY. There are even growing communties in every region in Israel! Things are changing rapidly and I believe it's by the Hand of God!

I do enjoy the fellowship I've had with them, and am amazed at their understanding of Scripture. Now most Jews in Israel, are secular, unfortunately. But, they are still Jews, as per their being physical descendants of Abraham. But we all know in the last days '...all Israel will be saved.' I believe we're seeing the 'firstfruits' of that prophecy right now. There is a remnant, and always has been, of Jewish people (by descent), that have come to a saving knowledge of Christ.

They do believe in keeping the Law, not as a way to be saved, they know that's by grace thru faith. But they keep it because they love God.

This is my understanding:

What we call the 'Law' is not quite a proper translation from the Hebrew. The Hebrew word for 'Law' is Torah, which more accurately translated is 'instructions, or teaching'. ANYONE who 'loves the LORD with all their heart, soul and mind, and loves their neighbor as themselves', is keeping 90% of the Law or Torah. Most of the rest of the Laws (instructions) cannot be kept because there's no Temple in Jerusalem, no Priesthood, etc.

Think of it, the books of the Law (the writings of Moses), are not just laws, they're stories, of the creation, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses...

The Jews believe it's God's self-disclosure of Himself. He revealed His ways to His redeemed people. (Remember, there was a mixed multitude at Sinai, including gentiles, when the 10 Commandments were given, that included people that couldn't trace their lineage back to Abraham). So they try to keep His ways of Holiness and Righteousness. Again, not to gain salvation but out of love for the true identity of Jesus the Jewish Messiah, which I believe God has given them. We gentiles have been grafted into the olive tree. 'We who once were far off have been brought near.'

I'm of Italian/Swedish extraction, but, as the bumper sticker says, 'My Boss is a Jewish Carpenter.' I am a follower of Christ, the Messiah from Bethlehem, the Nazarene. We're called to be disciples of His when He said 'Follow Me.' Discipleship is most simply put, the art of imitation. I believe Jesus came to show us how to live and we should strive to imitate His ways.

The people I know are of Jewish extraction, but have been called out, at great cost to themselves, and their eyes have been opened to follow the true Messiah. They know it is Jesus, and they've lost family, friends, and community in order to follow Him. They call themselves "Jewish Believers", or "Completed Jews", and welcome all who name Jesus as their Messiah. I believe we're witnesses to fulfilled prophecy. Their 'Hebrew Roots' movement is growing by leaps and bounds as they witness to the Jew first and then to the gentile, they are bringing in a harvest!

And they by that mentality I have no problem with.  I however do dislike the fact that when the world thinks of Jews they think of the religion as mixed in with the race...as in you cannot have one without the other, and they understand that the Jewish faith is one without Jesus as the Messiah.  So when you do lay claim to yourselves as Jewish Christians in the mind of the world around you, you create a contradiction, confusion and God is not the author of confusion and so we as followers should not do anything to breed confusion.

Me personally I lay no claim to a denomination, yes I attend a Baptist church, but I am a follower of Christ first and foremost.  If I were to lay claim to anything it would be Christian first and foremost.  And to hang onto Jewish as a in reference to lineage is akin to say a African Baptist, or Japanese Methodist.  I know several folks that have attended or do attend Messianic services and they are spiritual people and I have no doubts about their salvation. 

It is more just me personally do not like the attachment of Jew/ish to Christian/ity.  Simply because of the possible confusion it may bring.  Just my two bits on it.

 I understand what you're saying completely, Brother Jerry! The first time I met anybody that made that claim I asked a lot of questions. I was shocked! It made no sense to me. But I guess that's how God is opening doors for them, people challenge them and ask questions. They know their Scripture and prove from Old and New Testaments that Jesus is the Promised Messiah and rejoice with us in this revelation. They'll explain in the beginning the Jews (disciples) of Jesus were called 'The Way', which was another sect of Judaism just as Pharisees and Saducees. So it was a natural extension - they believed their long awaited Messiah was God manifested in the flesh as Jesus Christ - the others did not. I find it very interesting. But you are of coarse entitled to your opinion. I know the Jews in Israel are telling them they're not Jews.

I'm also in the same boat as you, I've been going for 27 years to Pentecostal churchs in the north, Baptist and Messianic churches in the south - and I was born a Catholic. We're new here in Florida and looking around, so I guess I can only say I follow Christ and can't get enough teaching. My husband, son and I go wherever we hear truth and witness of Jesus Christ.

We're from NY so it's so common there now to see 'Jews for Jesus' and Messianic synagogues, there is no confusion because they're now part of the 'landscape', I guess cause there and here there's such a large Jewish population. They are everywhere, with their numbers and enthusiasm increasing. It is incredible. But I do completely understand your point about confusion and even contradiction to what we all have learned. I know in NY God is using it - He is amazing! I don't disagree with you, just am truly interested in this phenomena and the courage they exhibit.

Agreed

And Barbara if I have not done it before welcome to the forums.  I am already enjoying the conversations.

Thank you, Brother Jerry, you're very gracious! I must say I'm also enjoying the conversations, and the love of Christ exhibited on these forums!!!!

Brothers and Sisters,

Mankind has confused things pretty terribly with all kinds of labels, tags, denominations, and you name it. Someone might have 10 PLUS tags attached to them that represent what religious beliefs they have.

For GOD, things are REAL SIMPLE. GOD has made Promises to THREE kinds of people:

1 - Israel - GOD has made promises that are unique only to Israel. As an example, CHRIST will restore Israel after HIS SECOND COMING, and the earthly KINGDOM GOD Promised will be a REALITY. CHRIST HIMSELF is the KING - the Anointed KING of Israel - will rule and reign over the earth for 1,000 years from the Throne of David in Jerusalem.

2 - THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST - ALL and I do mean ALL that are Members of THIS ONE and ONLY TRUE CHURCH not made with human hands are SAVED. Throw all of man's tags, labels, and denominations out the window because they mean absolutely NOTHING. ALL people, regardless of tag or label, who have placed their Faith in JESUS CHRIST and have CHRIST as the LORD over their lives are Translated into THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST at the moment of Salvation. CHRIST HIMSELF is the HEAD of this CHURCH that is NOT of this WORLD. Color, race, ethnicity, nationality, etc., etc., etc., mean absolutely nothing. Those who BELONG TO CHRIST are MEMBERS of HIS BODY, and this is the ONLY qualification for MEMBERSHIP. ALL others are rejected because they have rejected JESUS CHRIST as LORD and SAVIOUR.

3 - The lost. Those who have disobeyed, defied, and rejected CHRIST will be reserved for final judgment and Eternal Punishment.
__________________________________

There are so many tags and labels now that many people, including Christians, have no idea if a tag or a label means that a person is Saved. The only way to find out is to ask specifically what they believe about GOD THE FATHER, GOD THE SON (JESUS CHRIST), GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT, and ESPECIALLY THE CROSS! Many completely false and corrupt religions borrow or use some of man's labels and tags - and many of them blaspheme GOD with their beliefs and practices. There are new tags and labels popping up almost hourly now, and it's nearly impossible to keep up with all of them. Regardless, there won't be any of man's tags and labels in HEAVEN!

In terms of Biblical History, we live in a unique and special time that wasn't known to the Old Testament Prophets. In fact, it was a Secret not made known to men of other ages. There are quite a few different names some people call this period of time, but I'll just mention a limited number:  1 - The Age of Grace, 2 - The Dispensation of Grace, 3 - THE CHURCH AGE (Meaning CHRIST'S CHURCH - HIS BODY). This Age of Grace and CHRIST'S CHURCH are only possible because of the CROSS! We are not under the Law of Moses, rather we are under the Gospel of the Grace of GOD. For Christians, the Law of Faith in JESUS CHRIST has set us free from the curse of sin and death. The Law of Moses NEVER SAVED a SINGLE person because no man has ever been able to keep all of the Law. GOD made manifest in the flesh as JESUS CHRIST is the only one who ever walked this earth in Holiness and Spotless Perfection. The Law was a schoolmaster bringing man to the knowledge of sin and the need for GOD, and all men are sinners.

So, let me see if I can confuse this discussion just a little bit more, but maybe it will help. There are two kinds of Jews:

1 - A Jew who has rejected CHRIST and is a Jew!

2 - A Jew who has accepted CHRIST and is now a CHRISTIAN!

Did this help or further confuse things?

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ezekiel 39:25-29 NASB
Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name. "They will forget their disgrace and all their treachery which they perpetrated against Me, when they live securely on their own land with no one to make them afraid. "When I bring them back from the peoples and gather them from the lands of their enemies, then I shall be sanctified through them in the sight of the many nations. "Then they will know that I am the LORD their God because I made them go into exile among the nations, and then gathered them again to their own land; and I will leave none of them there any longer. "I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I will have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel," declares the Lord GOD.

This is an interesting study blackeyedpeas,

How are you?

You're right - the law of Moses never has saved a single person, but I don't believe it was ever meant as a means of salvation. Hebrews 11:6, in the faith chapter says:

"But without faith it is impossible to please him; for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
(7) By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not see as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark...

(8)By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed...

(11) Through faith also Sara herself received to conceive seed...

(13) These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off (in the future), and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth...."

So, I think, that even then, during the OT, Paul is telling us that they were saved by grace through faith in the promise of the coming Messiah and the work of salvation He would accomplish.

"And so, because he (David) was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne, he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay." (Acts 2:30-31)

I believe they were saved by God's grace through their faith in the future coming of the Messiah and His work of salvation, it was never by works, lest any man should boast. And we are saved by looking back at the work of Jesus, the Messiah and having faith in Him.

Amen Sister Barbara,

FAITH in GOD is one thing that can "be accounted as righteousness" for mankind. This still gives all of the Glory to GOD and NONE to man, and this is the Way of GOD. This also tells us how thankful we should be to be seen in and through JESUS CHRIST - NOT on our own merits or anything we deserve. We deserve NOTHING but punishment. The difference after the CROSS is that GOD can now be satisfied with the Perfect Sacrifice. GOD THE FATHER looks at us through JESUS CHRIST, and this is another reason to give thanks. In fact, there are a list of wonderful blessings and riches that were extended to us because of the CROSS!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Absolutely Barbara,

What I see Paul explaining in that chapter of Hebrews is that it is by faith that Moses followed the Law.  Prior to Christ the justification was having faith in God, and they were sanctified by allowing their faith to guide them into following the law.  Noah did not have the law but by his faith and willingness to follow the directions of God, he was sanctified.

The Jews had gotten to the point where they reversed the two.  They thought they were justified by following the laws, and sanctified by their faith.  They believed that unless you would follow the laws to the letter you would not receive justification to receive God's blessings.  And they believed that if you were following the laws to the letter then you would continue being sanctified by your faith in following the laws.  They removed God out of the equation and placed Him as an end result.

Amen Brother Jerry!

Hebrews is an incredibly beautiful book that makes many contrasts between the Law and Grace. It confuses many, but the priceless treasure in Hebrews is "What changed at the CROSS."

Love In Christ,
Tom