ChristiansUnite Forums

We all know that the bible said for we women to submit to our husbands. But it also said that a husband should love his wife like Christ loved the church. My question is this: If a husband is not submitting to God and treats his wife like a slave, should his wife submit to him even though his loyalties are coming from himself rather than God?

Oops, I see that I probably posted this in the wrong category. But then again, it is a current event.

That is probably a touchy question, going by the response I have received from women when this is discussed.
I guess my short answer is this.
Our obedience to God's commands is not based upon how others act, but upon what He has commanded us to do. I don't love my enemy only if he is nice to me, but because God has commanded it.
I would like to add something though.
I have said in my testimony that my cousin gave me the money to buy a Bible, and I did. But before I ever started reading it, my friend's wife's Mother told this to me.
She said that there was a time she hated to submit to her husband because of the way she had been brought up. (sex is dirty; men just use you for sex, etc.). But she then told me that God revealed to her the scripture about submitting to her husband, and that she then saw it as submitting to God instead, and found that she was able to really enjoy it for the first time in her life.
I know this is not really an answer to your question, but your question reminded of that. At the time I thought it strange that this woman shared this with me, but I later saw how God used it to get me to start reading that Bible.
I just love to watch God work.   Roy.

So basically what you're saying is that it's like what what the bible says about slaves and masters. I agree, to a point. If the woman's life is in danger, then what? I was in an abusive relationship once and I left. I said that I will come back if we get counseling but i wouldn't divorce him. He siad he wouldn't get counseling and asked for a divorce. I gave it to him. The bible says that i am not legally bound when an unbeliever leaves. I am so glad I did because i now have the most wonderful husband who has the Holy Spirit in him. I can't imagine being more blessed.

Help HELP!

Do the scriptures say Sarah is our example? I cant find it
or is this another one of those phrases that is not really scriptural?

My question is this: If a husband is not submitting to God and treats his wife like a slave, should his wife submit to him even though his loyalties are coming from himself rather than God?

I'm not sure that any "regulations", esp. in the NT,  are necessarily ironclad.  But, if you decide to break one of them, then you must be able to answer for it.

Was there a misunderstanding?
I was not speaking to any particular person's situation, but to the scripture itself.
I believe that if a woman is being mistreated she is free to leave that situation. And am surprised by many who stay when they are being beaten, etc.
I did not know that when you said "treats his wife like a slave" that you were refering to mistreatment. Many men seem to take their wife for granted, and act like they are his slave, in that they expect her to cook, clean, wash, etc.
You did not mention your previous relationship in the original post, so I only answered as to what you did ask.
As to when we are free to marry again if we divorce, I won't even touch that one. I have my thoughts, but I have heard so many different thoughts on this that I will leave that to someone who may feel they know that answer better.
Sorry if you misunderstood, Heidi, for I was not speaking to you, but to the scriptural question only.

I have had this discussion with someone before.  For the most part I would have to agree with you Royo.  Acording to scripture we need to do "our parts" regardless of our partner.  I am not touching on physical abuse but cases where one person feels the other is not "living up to their end".  This can go both ways.  I myself was in a situtation where I was doing most of the work and paying the bills and my partner was barely doing anything at all.  It was pretty frustrating to say the least.  

I didn't feel the same way then but now looking to scripture each person needs to hold up their end regardless.  If something seems really out of wack one should take it to the church to have it delt with.  This is something we don't see much of but everything between Christians should be taken care of before the church.  We shouldn't need the courts between Christians.

As far as abuse is concerned then one needs to protect themselves.  I often find it hard to believe that a saved person could physically abuse his/her family just ased on scripture.  I would say to seek help from your church and see what happens.  You may not need to go all out if you know what I mean.

1 PETER 3:6  
Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Heidi,

Is our obedience to God's commands dependent upon the actions of others?

As long as her husband does not ask her to violate Gods commandments I would say yes.
If he wanted her to get an abortion she would need to refuse. But if he is just generally a jerk then unfortunatly she does need to obey.
This goes the other direction too. If a christian man is married to an unsaved woman and she goes out and has affairs, gets drunk, talks with a filthy mouth, etc. he still must love her.
Does this verse help?

1 Corinthians 7:16  For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
 

I think the best thing to remember is that we are forgiven if we do leave. Feeling that forgiveness makes us want to be able to discern if we have been at fault. So in a sense, you are all right. The more forgiveness and trust i have in the Lord, the easier it will be for me to discern if my spiritual, mental, and physical life will be in danger if i stay. So I wouldn't be leaving just because I'm angry or don't love him. I would be leaving because my physical, mental, and spiritual life were eroding. Jesus said that Moses permitted divorce because our hearts were hard. If two people with hardened hearts are living together, it will only produce more hardened hearts.  

I think it's important to remember that we, as Christians, are no longer under the law. Christ fulfilled the law for us. The law now comes from our hearts. We are convicted because of the law and the law shows us in which direction to go. What Jesus does is change our HEARTS so that we follow our hearts now instead of the law. The holy Spirit gives us mercy, love, patience, joy, etc. in our hearts and we then respond from that. As our hearts become more forgiving and merciful, genuine love grows. I believe that is what jesus wants in a marriage. But if that is not there and we're only staying to obey the law, how is that different from the Pharisees?

I've sometimes maintained that the husband actually has the more challenging part of the commission only because he is required to give his life for his wife. Notice that's not 'expected' of the wife.

I want to share a personal story that might shed some light on this topic. When i met my husband, I was ATTRACTED to him, physically, emotionally, intellectually and spiritually because i could see the Holy Spirit in him. I instantly knew he was born again. He said he felt the same way about me. I didn't "decide" to marry a Christian because the bible said so. I was ATTRACTED to a Christain. And ever since then, we have had a glorious marriage. Since we are both coming from Christ in our hearts, we both want to do the right thing. We both look at our own sins, confess them and seek to have Christ minimize them in our lives. It isn't a decision. My husband loves me like Christ loves the church, not because he SHOULD, but because he DOES. He wants to make me happy. It isn't an effort. And because of that, i want him to do what he wants. So neither of us feels needy, which makes us want even more to please the other. This is what i think Christ can do for us. He honestly changes our hearts so that our love can be genuine.

It certainly can be a blessing when two people are born again and married. Unfortunatly that is the exception.
I believed in reincarnation when I got married. I was 29 and not sure I ever would have a family. My wife had a 1yr. old boy and was divorced at 18. She professed to be a christian. I wanted a family very badly and  I saw good mothering instincts from her.
I played a lot until I was 29 but I never felt there were any right ones.
After my first child was born, I'll call him my second child, I began to read the bible searching it for truth.
Eventually I became Christian in thought, but I wasn't saved yet.
My wife began to develop a violent temper toward me.
She divorced, dated a guy for a while got pregnant and had a baby. We began to see each other again, and the baby girl became my third child when she was only about 2 mths old. We had one more girl, to end up with 4. I began to change from believing salvation was by my freewill choice to understanding it was all Gods work.
She began to be more and more violent. Even attacking the house with her car, she couldn't get past the shrubs.
Eventually she divorced again and now lives with her boyfriend of 7 years.
She probably had 3 kids too many. When she walked out she had gotten very angry at son #1. I was in the livingroom reading the bible.
Whether she is or will be saved I don't know but the behavior was more like an unsaved person. We were unevenly yoked, and that is often the case.
Most of the time I didn't have a clue why she was mad at me. Often I was probably just a release valve for the anger she had for the child.
But mostly I think that once I came to know the Lord it was an irritation to her.

Left Coast, i was divorced twice before i met my current husband. So I know that it is the exception. But it just shows me that without the Holy Spirit in at least one partner, marriage is an uphill battle. That is why it's good to remember that we are forgiven if we divorce.  

Thanks Sunodino,

I did not change the spelling of Sarah, got flustered and gave up  thanks again Sunodino

1 Cor 7:39
39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.
KJV
Rom 7:3
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
KJV

God saw fit to include these scriptures not once but twice. Many times the WORD is the only thing that has held my marrage of 40 years together. ( I turned every scripture  on divorce and REMARRIAGE inside out looking for escape for me i could not find it)  We as christians scream GOD did not create Adam and Steve  but we live as if GOD  created Adam and Eve and Eve and Eve. When we divorce are we saying GOD can not hear my prayers? HE is not capable of healing?

  Please do not take this very personal topic personally :'(
I know i am not in  any other shoes then my own.   Sarah trusted in the LORD not in Abe.  I have stayed married but have not always lived as though i trust in the LORD.

We do not justify murder, idols, lieing, etc because we are not under the law yet as a church we do remarriage.

[We do not justify murder, idols, lieing, etc because we are not under the law yet as a church we do remarriage.
AMEN!!!  Something I've never understood.

AMEN!
According to scripture, christians ( laying aside the past, speaking only in present tense) should not be divorcing.

God can fix anything, if your willing to put it in His hands.

(from someone who is living the proof.  ;) )

We do not justify murder, idols, lieing, etc because we are not under the law yet as a church we do remarriage.
QUOTE
____________________________________________________
 
I am in agreement with what the scripture says, as you have quoted them Reba. Though it is a touchy subject with many.

Will those Christians who have divorced, when scripture says not to, be forgiven? Of course they will be. But we must be careful not to go against the Word of God just because we know we will be forgiven.
Many divorce though because some pastor or counselor tells them the Word says it is O.K. if........
In todays churches there seems to be a lot of the blind leading the blind. Or the misinformed leading the illinformed.
God bless you all. Roy.

I agree that Christians shouldn't be divorcing. But i do think that if we are being mistreated, we can stand up for ourselves. We are, of course, responsible for how we treat our spouses, but if we find that our situation is intolerable, we can separate and insist on counseling. If the other one doesn't want to save the marriage, then he/she can divorce us and then we are not bound.

I believe that any, if there was any, permission to divorce was repealed when Christ came.
The reason God allowed divorce was because He was married to Israel. Israel was commiting spiritual adultry. The penalty for adultry was to be stoned to death. If Israel was destroyed Christ could not come because the promise that He would come from Israel.
When divorced if the wife remarried she could never return to her original husband. Even if her second husband died. This law was not repealed. As such the nation of Israel cannot return to it's first marriage.

Deuteronomy 24:1 ¶ When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
Deuteronomy 24:2  And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man’s wife.
Deuteronomy 24:3  And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;
Deuteronomy 24:4  Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

The wonderful thing is God will obey His commandments perfectly. When saved we are the 'Bride of Christ'. God will never divorce us.
Seven years ago when my wife left I searched all over for some way to find permission to remarry. I spent alot of time looking in to marriage.
It seems to me there was a verse that says God hates divorce but I can't find it. Anybody know where it might be?
There is an excellent bible study available. You might not like alot of the things this Christian network says, but this study on marriage is the best I've seen. The following link will get you to the web site. On the left side click 'literature' near the bottom of the list you'll find:
What God Hath Joined Together
Here's the link http://www.familyradio.com/graphical/graphical_frame.html

Christs explicity says that divorcing because of infidelity is acceptable. So there is a reason to divorce. If your wife divorced you, Paul says you are not bound.

And remember, LC, that even if you are the one divorcing your spouse, that you are forgiven, It is wiped away. You are starting with a clean slate. After my divorces, I was beautifully blessed witha believing husband. I do not believe that God would have blseed me so if I were not in His favor. The only reason I'm in His favor is because He has forgiven me for my sins. So don't be so hard on yourself. There just might be a wonderful, believing person out there whom God can bless you with.

Heidi
I never divorced my wife, either time, we were married twice.
Please read the study I suggested. There was a specific reason divorce was allowed for adultry. You'll notice never at any time was a wife allowed to divorce her husband.
You'll also notice it was because of the hardness of their hearts that God allowed it.
Jesus recinded divorce and the study I mentioned explains it more clearly than I have the time to do.
The bible says if the unbeliever wishes to leave you are to let them leave, I did not contest the divorce.

LC, I scanned the literature section but didn't find the section on infidelity. So do you believe that God doesn't give us a second chance?

LC, let me elaborate on where I'm coming from. In 1Co., 6:12, under "The Believer's Freedom", Paul says, "Everything is permissible for me, but not everything is beneficial." This to me, sums up the New Law that came from Christ's blood. We believers can do anything we want to. We can be sexually immoral, cheat, lie, etc. and we are forgiven. But is it beneficial? In other words, we are no longer bound by the law. We are instead convicted by the law. The law is now coming from our heart. It comes from the gratitude that we are forgiven and the Holy Spirit convicting us from sin. It's complete and total freedom which makes us WANT to obey Him rather than obeying Him because we should. This is what softens our hearts and gives us the ability to love. Once we have this ability to love, it can then be returned to us. Our hearts are now in the law.

This is what gives us the ability to stay married. But if our hearts are hard and we stayed married simply to obey the law, how are we any different than the Pharisees?

A few scriptures on subject. . .


Matt 18:21-22
21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
KJV


Matt 18:21-22
21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
KJV

1 Sam 15:22
22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
KJV


Rom 6:15
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
KJV



1 Peter 3:1. . .6
3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;. . . .


5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:

6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
KJV

in words of our Lord

John 14:15
5 If ye love me, keep my commandments
KJV
Matt 19:8-9
8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
KJV

Thanks, Reba. I basically think that Paul is saying that it is better that we stay married and that if we divorce, we're forgiven. However, there will still be conesequences proportional to the sin we committed. As we grow in the spirit, I believe we feel the pain of sin more and thus, don't want to continue it. So basically we are convicted but not condemned. Thanks again.

A little scholarly clarification here...


Many will use this to justify divorce and remarriage based upon the context of adultery.  I do not believe, however, that they do so scripturally.  Here is why I believe so...

This exception is found only in the book of Matthew, and not in the other gospel accounts.  It is commonly accepted that each gospel was written to a select group of people: Matthew to the Jews, Mark to the Romans, Luke to the Greeks, and John to the believer (I understand that people even vary in this understanding, but all agree that Matthew was written to the Jews).  Why is this important? Because this would only show up in the account written to the Jews, as this was a common practice among them.  When a man and woman married, by Law, they each went back home to their respective families homes for the period of one year - without consumating.  In that year, the husband would watch his bride, and if he found "uncleaness" in her, or found her to be unfaithful, then Moses, for the hard hearted Israelites, permitted it.  Christ even says this, that it was not, is not, and never will be "ok" with God.  This was written only to the Jews as only a Jew would understand the premise of that Lawful practice.  Jesus, effectively shoots that premise down right there.  Holding to such an opinion is unscriptural.

However, I tend to sit back and to look at God's workings in the lives of the believer.  He designed a man and a woman to marry and stay married - yet David, the man after God's own heart, sought to fulfill eastern cultural principles and had more than one wife as well as concubines.  Solomon did even more so.  Yet God continued to work graciously in David's life did He not?  I also find it interesting that David committed adultery with one woman, then had her husband murdered for all practical intents and purposes, then marries her!  That's worse than any tabloid story you'll find!  Yet, it was from that union that God brought Solomon onto the scene - and from whom the Savior would come!  God, unmitigatedly blessed that marriage.

I have parents who both divorced, and married each other prior to my birth.  God is working in their lives and they grow in Him each day.  My wife's parents divorced, and her mother and step father are growing in the grace of God each and every day.  Now, either they aren't growing, or they are!  When I see "fruit" I know they are growing.  So how do I reconcile these two factors?  God is good!  He is merciful and gracious to man in this area in ways we cannot begin to fathom.  If you've been divorced and are remarried, God still can work in you and in your marriage.  If you're married then it is important to understand God's opinion of that marriage.  Does this mean abused woman just have to tough it out?  I personally don't believe so, although scripturally I can't find a "leave him" verse.  Practically speaking, toughing it out may not be the route to take.  Problem is, that in most cases, that isn't the case.  Adultery can be.  I've seen several marriages come out of such circumstances stronger if those involved are willing to forgive and let God perfect them.

As for Paul's assertion...where did you find that passage Heidi?  I'd like to take a better look at it.

Allinall, your post re-enforces my understanding of scripture. even if Jesus doesn't think that it's O.K. to divorce because of marital infidelity (or sexual immorality in another bible), we are still forgiven if we do it. However, it's almost impossible for 2 born again Christians to divorce because the spirit helps them learn how to love each other. But without the Spirit, we are left with trying to "muster up" love (which isn't genuine), and people feel trapped into trying to obey the law. If there is only one born again Christian in a marriage, Paul is saying that the work of the Holy Spirit in him might bring his spouse toward salvation. But if the unbelieving spouse doesn't want the marriage than the believer is not sinning because he is not seeking to dissolve the union. So, according to scripture,  Left Coast has not sinned by allowing his wife to leave. He is free to marry again.

I disagree, but that is neither here nor there.  :)

I keep hearing that it is O.K., cause we will be forgiven.

It reminds me of the old catholic joke. (please anyone who is catholic, I mean no offense).
It was said, "sin all week, and on Saturday get forgiven."

Just because God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, does not mean we have a right, or "liberty", to disobey His Word. On divorce, or anything else.

God bless.  Roy.

Allinall
I thought your insight was very good. We are not to leave for any reason even abuse. But those are very tough shoes to walk in. I would consider such a woman a saint. If I had to counsel on the subject I would say stay, our time on this earth is very short but our life with the Lord never ends. I hope I never have to tell someone that and if it was one of my daughters I doubt if I would.
With out a doubt, if we are saved ALL of our sins are forgiven.
Heidi
I would add to what you accurately pointed out, When we become saved It is because God has given us a new heart.

Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

This is the action that saves us, also known as being born again. We are completely different. The result of this action done by God is in the next verse.

Ezekiel 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

We keep Gods laws and commandments, not perfectly, we still have a body of flesh, that has not been changed yet. We get a new body when the Lord returns.
Because salvation is dependent on Gods work we can test our salvation to see if the work was done.

1 John 2:3  And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 2:4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:5  But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1 John 2:6  He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

These verses do not stand alone we have to look at them in the light of Romans 7:

Romans 7:22  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 7:23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Romans 7:24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Romans 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

As Paul says when we are saved we delight in Gods law. A believer finds no happiness in sin. Short term, yes. Long term, no. We cannot stay in sin. I tried.
A few years after my divorce some friends of mine divorced. The husband made it clear he was out. In caring for this friend who was hurt we became attached, I had forgotten how much I missed companionship. We dated for about a year, I cared very much for her but always I knew it was sin. It ate at me and ate at me until we called it off. I could not continue in the sin. It has been about three years now, I sometimes wish I had that companionship. But I know for a certainty that I will never be with another woman again. The burden is too great.

Thank you L.C.  I know that is a hard row to walk.  Perhaps that's why the disciples told Jesus that it would be better for men not to marry.  But I like what Jesus told them in response.   :)

I'm not so sure about her wording but Paul makes it quite clear that if you have an unsaved partner who wishes to "divorce" you to let them go.  I don't see how you can say other wise.  Is there some scripture for this you have that I don't know about?  If so I am all ears however I have read it more than once that Paul has stated such.  I mean really how can you force someone to stay with you?

I'm speaking more from Heidi's assertion that that individual is then free to remarry, not that they shouldn't let them go.  I'm of a personal opinion that Paul was married prior to his conversion, and that he actually had his wife leave as a result.  We can't keep someone who's bent on leaving, but we can respond obediently to what God has said in His word from that point on.  :)

To you L.C. I have a question about your view on the abuse thing, and I mean physical.  It really isn't mentioned in scripture and to some extent I believe it's because ti was some what unthinkableor rather rare that a man would beat his wife.  I don't know, but I could never tell someone to stay and be beaten.  I don't find that biblical at all.  I wouldn't tell them to get a divorce but perhaps being helped by the Church and helping the family in couciling for a time.  

I do think that divorce is rampant even in the churches and worst of all I hear people telling them that God "told" them to do it, or that they found someone better that God lead them to.  I think that's bogus beyond belief really.

I'm not judging people but I don't see this stuff as good.  I am in a very strange predicament myself.  I was unsaved when my girlfriend got pregnant and we were never married.  She claimed to be saved which now boggles my mind but whatever on that regardless.  After our seperation, I became much closer to God.  I am in much tumult over it al really.  She is already "with" another person and has been for several months and we have not even been seperated for a year.

Technically I have never been married so I would not be wrong to marry another, but there is still a part of me that somehow wishes that God would do a work in her heart that my son would have his proper family.  I hate myself daily for making such a mistake that effects someone that had no say in the matter.  My flesh still also rejects the idea of being with her since she has decided to move on.  Anywho, I am curious how some people view this situation.  I am not looking for anyone or anything so I'm not looking for justification to move on.  It's just something that bothers me to no end.  I often have to force myself not to think about it or dwell on it.

I can be hard on others who are about to make similar mistakes because of my own experiences not because I am self righteous as some people are quick to shout.  I suppose it's not much different than parents telling their children things that they refuse to listen do and then use it as ammo against them later.  

Oh man how thou hast fallen.  Silly Adam and Eve had to go and be stupid passing on that most unfortunate trait of sin.   :'(  

I'd really love to stick my size 11 in satans rear end.   >:(

Wouldn't it be great if in the end we all got to kcik the snot out of the devil.  Sort of like when dad holds down big brother so little brother can get even?   :)

Just out of curiosity Jason, how long have you been saved?

Just over two years.  Why do you ask?  Do you not feel I am far enough along in my walk with Christ?   :-[  I am waiting for that sort of responce.  I don't mind you are all entitled to your own feelings/beliefs.

Nope!  Sorry to cause concern my friend  :)  I just noted the timing of your child, your relationship with his mom, and your testimony and thought that you'd be a relative "young buck" spiritually.  No.  To the contrary, I think you show great discernment for one so young.  Keep growing!  ;)

No you are currect in that assumption.  It is interesting to see how the LORD works.  At that time in my life I had lost 95 pounds (to which I have since put back on  :'( but I am about to change that again.) was getting ready to graduate tech school.  I thought I was on top of the world about to get out of my rut.  It seemed like the icing on the cake to add the girlfriend.  Little did I know that the LORd would soon put me in my place and slowly bring me to where he wanted me.  A month before graduation I found out she was pregnant and my life turned upside down.

I had wanted to get married and so did she (so she said).  We were already living together.  One day I got into an argument with her over evolution.  Me telling her she was stupid to sum it up.   :-X  She told me of course that's not what the bible taught yadda yadda the normal Christian/unsaved chat.  I being a reasonable person knew I had to know where she was coming from to prove her wrong.  I began reading the bible and slowly but surely I had a major conviction of the heart.

It was pretty weird to me as this was not the first time I had read the bible well at least some of it.  Never had I felt any conviction at all.  There happened to be a church right behind my appartment to which I decided to go to.  I went morning and evening on Sunday for about two months or so before I went down to the fron to ask Jesus to forgive and help me.  Oddly enough it was fathers day so I hold a lot of value in that day now.  I didn't go through the normal prayer thing with a "worker", which is why I laugh at people when they say "You think just because you went down front and said a prayer with someone you are saved."  I actually told the person who came over to me that I wanted them to do was pray for me and my situtation.  My salvation was just between Jesus and I with no help.  I then slowly but surely started to change my beliefs as I continued to read the WORD.  Again why I laugh at people when they tell me I grew up with this belief or my church taught me.  I actually stayed at my church because I found their teaching to match my reading not the other way around.  I now have a wonderful church family.  I am also quite close to the Pastor and his wife as well as our new pastors assistant.  I am quite involved in my church actually.

Anyhow that's how I became saved.  The rest of my humbling from the LORD happened from there, the crushing blow happening almost one year ago.  Everytime I feel "proud" the LORD brings about something to make me humble to him again.  As much as I don't like it, it always reassures me that the LORD loves me.  For if he didn't I wouldn't receive rebuking or chastisment.

God bless,
Jason

I think the bible does cover abuse. It does it in sort of a separated statement.

1 Peter 2:18  Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
1 Peter 2:19  For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.

The bible then ties this to wives

1 Peter 3:1  Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

You were never married so you are free to marry. I’m going to put a ‘but’ on this though.
Thirty years ago I lived with a woman for several months, I am not real confident that we were not married in Gods eyes. We shared the bed, the home, the bills, we lived as husband and wife we just didn’t call it that.
On the other hand my wife got pregnant in high school. Her mother pressured her to marry. He moved in with her parents. She did not leave her mother and father. They did not share the responsibilities of the home. As soon as the baby was born she divorced him. I feel that I was more married than she was.
One thing I would suggest. Look at the family before you commit to marriage. My wife, I call her that because according to God she is, has a family of divorced people.
Her mother has 6 kids 5 different fathers. She has been with the current one for over 30 years.
All of her sisters except one have been divorced. Some two or three times. Her only brother has never married. Three of the five girls have kids from more than two fathers.
Although I claim all 4 kids mine are numbers 2 and 4. We were divorced twice #3 came during the first divorce.
I can tell you to look, but the fact is love is blind.
And I was a psych. major in college. :-[ I am also a rescuer.

Amen brother!  That was a very blessed testimony that does my heart good.  God brings us from every walk in life doesn't He?  I was raised in a christian home and was in church everyday the doors were open most of the time!  I made a profession at the age of 8.  It wasn't until I was 22 that I came to the realization I was lost.

My assistant pastor was preaching as the pastor was out of town for two weeks.  Now, this man preached often, and every time he did, he addressed salvation.  I'd heard him hundreds of times before, but this time it was for me.  But I "whiteknuckled" it and walked out.  I was, afterall a professed believer.  The next week's message was the same with the same effect only more potent.  I struggled greatly, but left unsaved that Sunday to.  I even bargained with God!  I said, "God, if I'm not saved let Tony and Jenny be at lunch today."  Now they're my brother and sister in laws, and weren't even supposed to be in town that day.  So I thought I'd padded it rather well.  *L* Guess who was at lunch?

But I still stuck to my guns.  The next week, in Sunday School, the teacher, whom I'd known for years, and who never spoke on salvation in Sunday School - railed on salvation for the entire class period!  I'm feelin' a little out of place by that time, so when pastor said he was preaching on "The 3 Things You Need To Be A Good Christian" I was feeling better.  Point number one?  You have to be saved.  Don't remember the other ones...I went out that morning lost still.

The following Thursday, while reading my bible of all things for devotions, I realized that I had come to the end of my rope.  I was lost and this was my opportunity to obey.  So I did!  Thursday, June 23, 1992.

A rescuer eh?  I was that, but you should know full well there is no such thing really.  Funny thing is My parents got divorced and hers hadn't (although most would say they should).  Neither of my parents have remarried but my father lives with his current G/F and has for quite some time now.  I won't even go into what I think is really going on though.

I think part of the reason I hate myself so much is because I know what it felt like when my father left.  Everyone keeps telling me not to because my son doesn't really know what it's like to have his parents together so it's not the same.  It doesn't really help me though even if it is true.  I can't help but think that someday when he gets older he will hold it against me.  I am just going to keep doing what I find right for now though and I make sure to be there for him as much as I can.  I really wish I could come home to him, but for now that's not going to happen.  I can only pray that the LORD sees it right that I have him but I must always remind myself that the LORD is well aware of the situation and will do what is best.  That is hard sometimes as I don't feel his mother is what she should be for him.

I don't even think she realizes that I have him 50% of the time and that I actually see him more than her because when she see's him she has to have him babysat most of the time.  She has a strange shift job to which she works 6AM-6PM.  When I have him I have off so I spend all of my time "with" him.  I just wish she would put the LORD first.  It's upsetting to see someone claim salvation from the time the where "yeah high" yet not even begin to obey the LORD (seeing as we have an "illigitimate" child  :-X).  I found a way to work it so I have him every other Sunday so he at least goes to Church with me.

I'll just keep praying for her.  I don't think she doesn't love my son I just think she has a lot of growing up to do and a lot of rebellion to get rid of.

James Dobson said something once. It was directed towards divorced couples, but I also think it relates to you.
He said, Divorce will not kill a child but it will scar the child. Now if it is done right you won't even see the scar, but sometimes people act in a way that the scar disfigures.
I didn't use quotation marks because my memory isn't that good.
Your son will be OK if you work together. My wife and I actually have a good relationship we don't have custody issues. I get them when I can, and she gets them when I can't.
The boys are grown and on their own, but the girls are 16 & 14 now we let them decide where they want to be.
Sometimes I have to whine a little because their friends are at her house.
But I see them alot. That system works for us and I don't think that the scars are too bad.
That system may not work for you. But I think you will find the system that will work. You are involved with your sons life. That is the best thing you can do.

Currently she and I are working without the courts, but sometimes she and her family haven't a clue how the real world works.  Another issue to some extent, except that my ex lives with her parents.  

I am just trusting in the LORD for now really and the most important focus aside from the LORD abviously is my son.  One of the major reasons I said I wasn't looking is because my time is focused on my son.  Things have been going well for now but that's because nothing of serious issue has come up.  Last year when we split my son was about to turn one and I didn't get to see him on his birthday or the week after.  Another long story, but this year not only does his birthday fall on "my day" but I have him until Sunday.  I am getting ready to tell her that I am not giving him up on either day this year as Church is more important than her having a little party.  We will see how she reacts.  This is when things get tough and she thinks she has full say on this issue.  This is also enforced to her by her parents.  I am going to tell her she needs to have a little shingdig for him the week before or after but not during as this is my time with him.  I will be in much prayer over the issue as it is about to come to pass.  We shall see is all I can say for now.

Rom 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
KJV

Praise the LORD we are forgiven! What mercy what grace. We are fogiven but as you guys have shown we still  'live' with the  consequences of our sin. The death is there the hurt the pain the scars. O how wonderfull HIS gentle mercys.

I have not divorced. The death, the sin, is there, the hurtfull words that kill etc.  His forgivness is humbling.



Well i was going to post a couple of verses from Romans  chapters 7 and 8 here but which ones?  Does my heart well to read them again thanks guys.