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A national defense analyst who served as a military attaché to former President Bill Clinton says U.S. liberals need to look at the historical record of President Abraham Lincoln and others before they seek to undermine the National Security Agency's controversial wiretapping program. District judge Anna Diggs Taylor ruled last week that the NSA's wiretapping violates free-speech and privacy rights; however, the agency says the program is an essential element in preventing a possible terrorist attack. Retired Air Force Lieutenant Colonel Buzz Patterson, an analyst with the David Horowitz Freedom Center, says during the Civil War era President Lincoln took far more drastic measures to preserve the union than any the Bush administration has taken in the war on terror. Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus and actually jailed or sent out of the country American congressmen who were voicing anti-American views at the time, Patterson notes. "The last time we put anybody into jail in this country for treason or sedition," he says, "was World War II. We have not prosecuted anybody for treason or sedition since then." Yet the U.S. is obviously in a war now, the defense expert contends. "We obviously have people who are crossing the line," he continues, "and I would even go as far to say Congressman Jack Murtha fits that bill, as far as I'm concerned." America will not survive as a civilization, Patterson warns, unless U.S. leaders face not only the evils of terror and Islamofascism from without but also the evils of treason and sedition from within -- evils that support the Islamofascist agenda. [Chad Groening]

Perhaps Lincoln wasn't right in everything he did, either? And I doubt if any of those actions had the slightest effect on the outcome of the Civil War.

Congress had also declared war. We are NOT in a legal war at present, as far as I am concerned. The war on terror is no more a "war" than the war on poverty or the war on drugs.

President Lincoln may not have been right in everything he did, I won't disagree with that.

Legally declared or not it is a very real war and anyone that cannot see that needs to open there eyes up. The enemy is at our doorstep and is knocking on our doors this very minute. War is war and whether you fight against it or not people will die. That is what war is about, fight it or get slaughtered.

There is a big difference between the war on poverty and the war on terrorism. A really big difference. I can see a relation with the war on drugs but it is still not the same.

Amen.

We are in a war and it is much different from the war on poverty (fancy word but not a real war in any stretch), or the war on drugs.  People are being killed every day because of terrorists.  Over 3000 people were killed at once due to terrorists.  This is not just a war on terrorist it is a World War on terrorists.  This is our WW III.  Just because we have moved from fighitng in fields with thousands of troops and planes, and tanks, and such to an enemy that straps on explosives and boards a crowded bus with women and children does not mean that people are not dieing because they were caught in a conflict between terror and justice. 

This is a war in which intelligence, justice, education, and freedom are the primary weapons against an enemy that fights with terror, fear, and ignorance. 

What really shows in the Islamic faith is that we hear how Osama and them are not following true Islam and all that.  The Islamic faith does have a "cull your nuts" clause in it.  They can as a whole state a claim that Osama is not following the precepts of Islam and is therefore within the Islamic community stripped of that calling.  Sort of like the Catholic faith of excommunicating.  But yet they do not do this.  There are some smaller groups that have been calling for this but the "king" islamic leaders in the Middle East do not.  They would rather have their citizen's blown up on buses than to cast out Osama and his claim. 

Osama has called this Jihad against the United States.  If stripped of that right of Jihad he loses a step of power.  Many fight with him and for him because it is a holy war they seek to fight in.  And for religious reasons they do what they do.  But if stripped of the rewards they feel they are getting in heaven then they drop what they are doing, even Muslims do not want to go against their god. 

This really shows me the true face of Islam.  And that their statements of "peaceful religion" is smoke and mirrors to allow them to continue on in their insurgency across the world.  Islam is steeped further in bloodshed than could ever be equated to the Christian crusades or inquisitions (those are actually Catholic and not Christian ;)  ).

Sincerely
Brother Jerry

Excellant points Brother Jerry. islamic jihad is not something new to this world. The leaders and the depth at which they are pushing it is all that is new. islamic jihad against the world actually started approximately in the year 630 AD two years before Muhhamad died of a fever and it has been going on since. The European Crusades were nothing more than the Catholic response to that jihad as the muslim world was pushing it's way into their territory. I don't support much of the way in which the European Crusades were handled but we can clearly see from all the facts that it was a war to prevent the muslims from taking over the world.

That is exactly what this war today is about. The muslims wanting to take over the world and they will do so in any manner they can, if not through existing laws and prosylizing then through all out violence. Many ot the so called moderate islamics still have voiced their desire to become martyrs. CAIR, a group of muslims here in the U.S. and Canada have already stated thier objective. To do away with the existing Constitution and replace it with sharia law. They will support any action, including that of bin laden, in order to achieve that.

So irregardless of whether or not we have a "legally declared war" we are indeed at war because this group of evil people has already declared it a war.

A simple comment. As far as I'm concerned, we should JAIL ANYONE who puts political gain ahead of the good of this country! I agree... John Murtha, who before any investigations were even complete, before any trials had been held or even charges lowered, accused our men and women in uniform of 'killing in cold blood' fits that bill perfectly!

Is it constitutional to do such things? Maybe not... But I'm nothing if not an idealist.

I agree totally. Anyone that makes purposeful statements such as he did without warrant or proof is doing nothing but attacking the morale of the troops. It makes them afraid to do their job for fear of being prosecuted for doing so. That puts them and all of us in dire danger and is in my own opinion nothing but treasonous acts.

1 Peter 2:13: Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether it be to the king, as supreme"

In America we don't have a king, but are a nation under the authority of law, and the Constitution is the supreme law of the land. Therefore it is a violation of Scripture to intentionally violate the Constitution.

There is no reason President Bush couldn't have asked Congress for a declaration of war after 9/11 and he would have gotten it, but instead he chose to intentionally violate the Constitution he swore to uphold and the separation of powers that makes our government work. In doing so he also violated God's Word, which is probably one reason things are such a disaster. (The other being the moral and ethical condition of the American public).

I see little moral ground for those supporting undermining the Constitution to accuse anyone else of treason! And LEGALLY how can they be a traitor if Congress hasn't declared anyone to be the "legal enemy"? If we decide right and wrong by what seems expedient, I guess we can just throw the Constitution and the Bible out in the trash.

We could agrue the legality of what President Bush did in regards to this until the Lord comes again. Not even congress can agree amongst themselves as to whether it is or is not legal. ( take note that it has been almost 5 years and they still have not impeached him. why because they can't prove to themselves that it was illegal. So far all they have done is blow steam for pure political reasons of their own. ) I for one am glad that he took action on this and didn't sit on his laurels waiting for the next attack on us to take place.

It is the Presidents job to insure the safety and well being of this nation. It takes a man of action to do that not one that sits and does absolutely nothing waiting for others to do his job for him, all the while the enemy is continuing to kill people.

According to the War Powers Act (following portion applies ) the President was within his legal rights.

SEC. 2. (c) (3) "or a national emergency created by attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces."

And he did have the support of Congress at that time or they would not have approved the funding for it as they have. It was not until the anti-war crowd started there gambit and the Democrats jumped on that band wagon in order to attempt to further their politcal strength did they turn the tables on that.  He also had the approval of Congress to send troops into these various battles. So the entire argument comes down to being based on the fact that Congress did not place the words "Declaration of War" in the title of anything on this subject.

In regards to this it is one of those "I voted for it before I voted against it" and congress not doing their job in the PC area of their paperwork.

What really gets me is when people start crying 'He broke the law" and then when more people get killed because of inaction that those self same people want to hang the President for not doing his job.

This outrageousness of bringing in democrat vs republican arguments over this whole thing. That is what this argument is really about. It was a republican president that did this so let us Democrats hang him out to dry. When in actuality the Democrats had a very large part in this war on terrorism being implemented.

I say put all this politcal horse manure aside and go get the job done. Protect the U.S. citizens, stop upholding and bolstering the actions of the enemy, stop giving the enemy information that can only further their cause, which is to destroy the U.S. and completely enslave or kill any that oppose them.

*sigh*

You know, I think we've heard this song already, Pastor Roger. I can't tell you how many times even on another CHRISTIAN board, I constantly hear the words... "Illegal and immoral war".

Rhys, Pastor Roger is correct. The primary job of the president of the United States is to do all things necessary to protect the PEOPLE of the United States and to uphold their constitution. WE did not start this war! Forget about official declarations. The TERRORISTS started this war a LONG time ago, back before Bush's time.

How many terror attacks did we and the rest of the civilized world endure during the Clinton administration? Kobar towers, US Embassy bombings, USS Cole, first WTC bombing... Shall I go on? Why did it take 9/11 and the death of 3,000 INNOCENT CIVILIANS (One of which, BTW, could have been my grandfather, but God allowed him to become stuck in traffic and so he was not in the Twin Towers that day) to wake this country up? Why could PREVIOUS administrations, including the CLINTON administration that had the chance for Osama Bin Laden's head on a platter almost a dozen times not wake up to the fact that there was an enemy, that there IS an enemy fighting to destroy us and our way of life? Why could they not wake up to the fact that there are NUTJOBS out there who seek to cover all the world in the shadow of their moon god's twisted theocracy?!

And why, even now is the congress so BOGGED DOWN in its politics that they attack even the very men and women who give their lives to keep this country safe? IMHO, this president has done EXACTLY what needed to be done to fulfill his duty, to uphold the constitution and to keep this country safe. Since the fight was taken to our attackers, Rhys, no less than 11 terror attacks have been PREVENTED on our soil!

I reitterate. The people who are more concerned about their political futures than about the welfare of this country do not DESERVE to have a place in our government. John Murtha, John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, Al Gore, John Conyers, Nancy Pelosi, John Edwards, Howard Dean, Ted Kennedy, Russ Feingold and all the rest have proven they care more about their power than about this country time and time again! They have their heads so far up their rear ends that they cannot see that if they do not stand behind our leaders, and our men and women in uniform on this ONE ISSUE, if they are willing to sell out those who give their blood to defend this country in order to assure their political futures, THEY WILL NOT HAVE POLITICAL FUTURES!

Maybe there is no constitutional ground to be rid of them, but I tell you that in my mind they have betrayed this country a hundred times over. They have stabbed our men and women in uniform and our leader in the back for the sake of their POWER. And personally, I think that if our founding fathers knew what was happening with this government, they would be rolling over in their graves.

Thank GOD for men like George W. Bush who are willing to do what needs to be done, even in the face of opposition and treachery even from within this country!

Yep, we've heard it a lot and as I said these selfsame people would be ready to hang the President if he had not done these things. Again, as you have said also, it is all about politics, power not about serving the people that they were elected by. These people want the power but they don't want the responsibility that goes with it.

What does this have to do with it's legality? Congress can't agree on anything these days! Incidentally, I fully agree with the negative views of Congress in this discussion! Many of our problems are because Congress isn't doing its job.

I fully agree, but the proper procedure is to vote them out of office, not charge them with treason. The American people are complicit with them if they keep re-electing them.



Wrong! The primary job of the President is to uphold his oath of office: "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." Ignoring and trashing the Constitution is NOT doing his job! Many would argue these are only words, but I don't believe God thinks that way (Leviticus 19:12). And if conflicts with upholding the Constitution, the second has to take priority.

In my own opinion, furthermore, if the President HAD been doing Bin Laden and Al Queda would have been eliminated even if we had to invade Pakistan and we wouldn't be bogged down in Iraq and unable to confront Iran and North Korea.

I hate to point out the fact that Saddam was killing tens of thousands of his own people.......just because.

not to mention the funding and wepons he supplied to the terrorists, and his intent to rid the world (strting in his own countr) of those he didn't like

Lets leave the Iraq factor out of this. It was and is a necasary action that I for one have been over there to support MYSELF!

Don't ridcule what you have not seen or experianced first hand.

More often that not the media scews the reality of the issues just to get a rise out of the liberal public.

That in itself is sedission!!!

the real enemy I feel is the media and is own adgenda, which seems to cause internal conflict within our borders.

It makes all the difference in the world. Congress is supposed to make the determination of what is or is not legal ( right along with the Judicial system ). If there is a problem with it they are to attempt to fix and they also are supposed to insure that laws are enforced. If a President is breaking the law they are supposed to take action on it.



Yes voting them out of office is one of the correct ways to handle this however if they are breaking the laws ( i.e. treason or sedition ) then that is also a means to get them out of office before their time is up.




Wrong??

The Presidential Oath Of Office:

I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States.

Take note of the first part of that oath. "I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States". The role of the President is not secondary to but just as important as the second portion of that oath.


The president's principal roles:

    * Approve federal laws (bills) created by Congress (Senate and House of Representatives), which is the legislative branch of government

    * Lead the nation's people, making sure citizens obey the laws and setting priorities for the country, including helping the Congress decide how the budget is spent

    * Manage the government, making sure that decisions and programs are being carried out effectively, with the help of the vice president and appointed cabinet members who head different departments (agriculture, commerce, defense, education, energy, health and human services, housing and urban development, interior, justice, labor, state, transportation, treasury, veterans affairs)

    * Represent the U.S. in meetings with leaders of other countries, including signing treaties and other agreements (with approval from Congress) on behalf of the U.S.

    * Command the U.S. military, including declaring war (with approval from Congress)


Protecting the people of the United States is a primary part of his job. As I said before if the President did not have approval from Congress then they would not have provided financial support for doing the things that he has done in regards to this war.




conflicts?? Not so. They in fact compliment each other and is in no way a conflict. There is no logic in that statement at all. In order to uphold the Constitution he must execute his job as CIC. Protecting the Constitution is protecting the people that fall under it.

Amen, brother! I agree that the media is a primary part of this problem.




Amen again! And I for one appreciate and greatfully thank those of you that did so. Thank You!


Those that think that Iraq and the War on Terrorism are two separate things cannot see the big overall picture. Iraq, Iran, North Korea and many others are all one and the same. They are tied together whether some people think so or not. Terrorism is terrorism. A threat to the U.S. is a threat to the U.S.

All of these people mentioned want nothing more than to see the U.S. destroyed and that includes our Constitution. islam wants to install Sharia law world wide. In order for them to do that the Constitution must be removed from the U.S. When I say islam I mean even the so-called moderate islamics. CAIR ( which is supposedly moderates) has even stated that they are working to get our Constitution removed and replaced with Sharia law.

Anyone that supports them in their agenda in any fashion is in fact an enemy of the state.

You seem to forget that President Bush got approval from Congress to do military action both in Afghanistan as well as Iraq.  It was not a congressional declaration of war but it was a military action authorized by Congress. 

And Congress has had no problem with it up until the Court has decided to stick it's nose in and attempt to jar things up.  Quite often The Supreme Court has interfered in matters that are not up to them.  They are to enforce the laws not make them. 

And PR had it right on the money.  Put the politics aside and get the job done.  It does not matter right now, when it happened we were in agreement with it.  Get it done, do it right, and be proud of a job well done.  Then when you get the troops back and things are getting back to a normal level you discuss what you did right and wrong.  And not air it for the world. 

And Amen to the comment of the media being a big player in the political gambits nowdays.  And it is so very sad that it has ever gotten that far.  I am all for a free media but to quote a great writer "With great power comes great responsibility" and the media has such great power and ignores it's responsibility.

Sincerely
Brother Jerry

Pastor Roger and others, I want to thank you for dealing with Rhys. I have debated with people over these issues for almost THREE YEARs, and frankly, I'm quite tired of it.

Rhys, as Pastor Roger pointed out, protecting the constitution of the United States is protecting the PEOPLE of the United States.

And quite frankly, I would not mind if some of these politicians were arrested for the traitorous remarks they make. Again, maybe they have not inherently broken any laws, but they have done NOTHING but undermine this administration, and our men and women in uniform from DAY ONE of this war on terror.

They care ONLY for their political gain, and it makes me SICK!

lol  I have been fighting this kind of thoughts since 1968. I had to put up with it all through Viet Nam. It does get tiresome to see people that can't understand and see the big picture, that don't understand the harm that they are causing. It is refreshing to me to see a young man as yourself that shows wisdom in this area. It gives me hope for the future our nation.
 


They have broken laws. Whether we are in war or not it is against the law to release classified information such as the New York times was involved in. It is against the law to support the enemy (and congress has recognized who the enemy is), to give the enemy encouragement to continue in their endeavor to take over and destroy this nation.

Heh... I'm glad my views give you hope, Pastor Roger, but unfortunately, I fear I am the exception to the rule. The majority of those my age are liberal and stupid. X.X

You are not alone LP. There is at least one more. My 19 yr old son says the same thing you just did.

Heh... Well, it's gratifying to know you have such an intelligent son, Pastor Roger. I know we're not alone, but statistically speaking the ratio of smart people to idiots is something like 20:80

A lot of that has to do with the indoctrination that is being given through the schools and media both of which I was sure to take care of with all three of my children.

Has anyone else noticed that the majority of those that yell the loudest about the President supposedly breaking the law ( Constitution )  are those that also support illegal immigration the strongest.

Maybe that's because many of them ARE illegals?  ???

My own son, also echo's your comments LP,PR.