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Christ said that in order to get to heaven, you have to be born again with water and the spirit. According to Him, that's the only kind of Christian. He said "You are either for me or against me."  Yet the majority of Christians don't consider themselves born again. They don't even like to hear the term. According to Christ, the ONLY kind of Christian is a born again Christian, which means that millions of Christians are being deceived. There is no such thing as a "Christian" unless he is born again.

In the Image of Christ
Colossians 3:8-11


“Are you a child of God, or are you just religious?”
(Part Two)

    “There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.”    John 3:1-7

         “What an amazing conversation!”  On one side we have a religious ruler and teacher of Israel named Nicodemus.  On the other side we have the greatest teacher that ever walked in this world, Jesus Christ, the Son of God.  The amazing thing is not only the conversation itself, but the person to whom Jesus directs His words, Nicodemus.  It would be one thing to speak these words to a vile wicked sinner who does not even know God, whose only desire in life is to pursue the pleasures of sin, but to speak these words to Nicodemus!  Here was a man born of the seed of Abraham and duly circumcised (a covenant child).  He was a pious man who devoted his life to his religion.  He most likely couldn’t remember the first time he attended synagogue, the first time he prayed, the first time he read the Word of God or any number of spiritual activities that had become the focus of his life.  Not only was Nicodemus a very religious man, he also was knowledgeable, a spiritual teacher and leader of the Jews, one who sought to help others.  Stop and think about it! Jesus was telling one of the most devout religious people in the world that he would neither see nor enter the kingdom of God unless he was born again.

        If someone else said these words to Nicodemus, he would probably have just laughed it off and gone on his merry way, but this wasn’t just someone else speaking to him, it was God Himself.  Nicodemus already accepted Jesus as a teacher who came from God; how terrifying then these words must have been to him. Here was a divinely sent teacher telling him that with all that he had achieved and become, with all that he knew and all those he had taught, he was still outside the kingdom of God. Religious, yes, but lost!

        There are many in this world that are just like Nicodemus. I’ve asked many pastors in the last couple of years how a person becomes a child of God.  This is a very simple question with a simple answer that anyone who teaches the Word of God should know.  Yet, I was amazed at the answers I received.  I asked one pastor, “when did you become a child of God?” His answer was, “I was born of covenant parents and baptized as an infant.” (Yet the Bible teaches that genealogy and baptism have nothing to do with salvation.)  I asked another pastor about being born again and he told me that his born again experience was when he was two years old (quite young to believe in your heart and profess with your mouth). He said his Sunday school teacher would stand each child on a chair next to a light switch and have them turn the light on as they quoted the verse that says, “God is light”.  He said when his turn came something more than just the light went on, and this was his “born again experience”. (God does not turn something on inside of us; He sends His own Spirit to dwell in us.) Another told me that he was always a child of God even before creation, yet he could not tell me when he had been a child of wrath as the Word of God declares all saints once were (Ephesians 2:1-3).  A pastor’s wife told a friend of mine that she became a child of God while in her mother’s womb (again, when she did not even know the Gospel nor was capable of believing in the heart and confessing with the mouth).

        I was not only amazed at the answers I received from these pastors, but also saddened.  If these men, who are supposed to be shepherds of the flock, do not have a clue as to how a person can become a child of God, what hope is there for those who sit under their ministry?  Many of today’s spiritual leaders are committing spiritual malpractice of the worst kind, simply because they do not understand God’s plan of salvation which requires that a person be born again in order to see and enter the kingdom of heaven.

        Some day these spiritual leaders will have to give an account to God for all the souls under their care that they have misled, and I am afraid that day will not be a pleasant one for them.  Matthew 23 records some of the strongest rebukes that the Lord Jesus ever spoke.  One important point to notice in this chapter is that those who are being rebuked are not the common people, not sinners who have no knowledge of God, but rather they are the religious leaders who should have known God.  In verses 13 & 15 we read:

    “But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.”   Matthew 23:13

    “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.”   Matthew 23:15

        Dear friend, regardless of whether you are a religious leader or not, perhaps you have a lot in common with Nicodemus.  It could be that you also cannot remember the first time you went to church,  the first time you prayed or read the Word of God.  Maybe you are very active in religion and spiritual things like Nicodemus was, maybe you are even a teacher. Perhaps you’ve been a good church member all your life. You may even claim to be born of covenant parents and baptized.  Yet, if you have never been born again you will never see, nor enter the kingdom of God. Be not dismayed, there is still hope for you.  Being born again is a spiritual birth that takes place in a person when, having heard the Gospel, he repents and believes, and in faith calls on the name of the Lord to be saved (Rom. 10:9-13). The Lord Jesus summed it up to Nicodemus in John 3:16.

    “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”   John 3:16

        Friend, if you have never been born again, all the church membership and religious activity in the world will not help you in the day of judgement.  In fact, it will further condemn you before God (Rom. 4:4) God’s Word declares, “Now is the day of salvation” (2 Cor. 6:2).  Don’t count on the luxury of tomorrow. Repent and believe the Gospel. Call on the name of the Lord now, while there is still time to be saved.

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Pilgrim

Thank you so much for your resonse, Pilgrim. I am just so SADDENED byt the "teachers of the law" who don't know Christ. They are passing their teachings on to millions of people in the name of Christ. And so many people will not be saved because of them. Jesus was the angriest at these people and so am I. Unfortunately, they are my ministry and it's going to be a tough road ahead.  

Wait, who doesn't want to be born again???? :-\

Very well put Pilgrim.  Amen!

In the Image of Christ
Colossians 3:8-11

“Are you a child of God, or are you just religious?”
(Part One)

    "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."  (Matt. 7:21-23)

        “That’s strong language!”, you might say. But it was the Lord Jesus Christ who spoke these solemn words.  Anyone who calls Jesus “Lord” should examine himself in the light of these verses.  The only thing sadder than dying in your sin and ending up in the lake of fire for eternity, is the person who calls Jesus “Lord”, yet ends up in that same lake of fire.  Can you imagine the horror of his soul as his eyes close for the last time in this life thinking that when he opens them again on the other side of eternity, he will be “better off”, because he’ll see the glories of heaven, and to his horror and surprise he awakes in the torments of hell? His relatives who are still alive console themselves saying that father or mother or brother or sister is better now, happy now, etc. Little do they know!

        We need to observe and consider several things as we read these verses.  First we see that the people that the Lord is referring to are religious folk.  With their mouth they call Jesus “Lord”.  They claim to be Christians, and that they are involved in God’s work.  To substantiate their claim they point to spiritual things like prophesying, casting out devils, and many other good works.  Some will say these are people who once were saved, and yet somehow lost their salvation, that is, that they WERE Christians once, they once believed in earlier years,  but something happened and they “fell away” or “gave it up”. Yet we should pay attention to what Jesus said,  “I never knew you”.  

        Another thing to notice is the size of the problem, the quantity of people who will experience this painful problem. Christ said that in that day, “many will say...”.   He didn’t say a few, just a handful, but rather, “many”.  That is a big problem, it affects a lot of people, people who, sadly, do not suspect that this is their problem. Great multitudes will find themselves in this horrifying situation.  The saddest thing about this, is that once these people are awakened to the deception in which they lived, it will be to late to do anything about it. A stitch in time saves nine, but a stitch too late can’t alter your fate! Therefore, two good questions to ask yourself are, who are these people, and, is it possible that “I” am one of them?

        I have met many people in my lifetime that claimed they were children of God and are convinced that when they die they will be in heaven.  Yet these people can’t even claim the good works that the people in the verses above can.  Their lives manifest a love of the things in this world rather than the things of God (1 John 2:15-17).  When they stand before God they will not be able to say, “Lord, look at what I have done for you”,  because they have done nothing for the Lord.  Yet these people claim they belong to him.  If the Lord tells the people who did so much in the above verses that He never knew them, what chances do these people have?  

        Don’t take me wrong, I am definitely not saying that we are saved by good works.  The Word of God teaches us that we are saved by faith, not by our own works (deeds), and that a saved person is created for good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10 Titus 2:14 3:4-7).  In other words, we can’t do good works in order to be saved, but once we are saved, we do them because we’re saved. They are the effect of salvation, not the cause. If you are in Christ you will bear fruit (John 15:1-6)  If you claim to be a child of God and yet there is no fruit in your life, perhaps it is because you are not really in Christ.  If you claim to be a child of God, yet your life is full of the pleasures of sin and void of the things of God,  you have deceived yourself, my friend.  In the book of Titus we read these words

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny [him], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." Titus 1:16

    Notice that there is a profession and a denial in this verse.  The profession is with the mouth and the denial is with the deeds, the lifestyle.  In God’s eyes the denial speaks louder than the profession, just as we say, “actions speak louder than words”.

        Dear friend, I have met many people that fit the verses above, and  not only this, but also I myself used to be one of them.  I made a profession of the Lord Jesus when I was eight years old and was baptized.  I attended church and was involved in many of the activities held there, I read my bible, and even prayed from time to time.  At about the age of twelve all the spiritual activity in my life stopped.  I started a love affair with the things of the world.  I loved the pleasures of sin that this world had to offer, and pursued those pleasures with great zeal.  At twenty years of age the Lord started working on me.  My brother gave me a book to read written by a Christian.  I refused to read the book for many months.  It was by my lamp stand and every night as I turned the light off I would see the book just sitting there.  One night I picked the book up and started reading it.  About half way through the book the author asks this question, “If you were to die tonight where would you be spending eternity?”  I had heard or read this question many times in the past, and without hesitation said to myself, “heaven of course”.  Yet when I read this question that night the Spirit of God convicted me.  It was the first time in my life I really gave this question more than a second of thought.  How could I claim to be a child of God when right across the room I had grocery bags filled with pornography exposing the ungodly lust of my heart?  My mouth for years was filled with obscenities and my heart filled with prejudice and hatred toward others.  As I examined my life, I realized for the first time that I was not a child of God, and that I was in big trouble with Him.  If God was going to let me into heaven He might as well tear down those pearly gates and let everyone in.  It was that night that I repented and bowed my knee to the Lord and asked Him to save me from my sin and from the penalty of my sin.  I knew that I deserved the wrath that God has for unrepentant sinners.  I also knew that God offered a pardon for my sin, and that this was a based on one simple requirement. The condition was, receiving His Son the Lord Jesus Christ and believing on His name.  If I would receive The Lord Jesus Christ, then God would not only deliver me from His wrath, but also He would make me His child (John 1:11-13).  Dear friend, if you examined your life and find that you are in the same condition that I was in then I would plead with you to do as I did, repent and call on the name of the Lord to be saved (Romans 10:9-13).  Right now it is not yet too late.  I pray that you will not be one of the many that Jesus spoke about in Matthew 7:21-23 that deceived themselves until it was too late.  Call on the name of the Lord now, while there is still time.  “Now is the day of salvation.”

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Pilgrim

We are saved when the Holy Spirit enters us, period. When the Holy Spirit enters us, He gives us the faith. We cannot "decide" to have faith or muster it up. We either have an intimate knowledge of Christ or we don't. I asked God into my life in 1985 but nothing happened. Nothing changed and my life got worse. I felt no different nor was I spurred to seek out His word. But then in 1989, when I was at the end of myself, He came to me. I felt the Holy Spirit enter me and in a matter of seconds I knew that Jesus was alive.

I'm not saying you aren't saved, Pilgrim, that's between you and God. But I do know there's a difference between intellectually believing Christ died for us and a heart change. As for claiming good deeds, how can I claim good deeds? If I boast about my deeds then they were done for me, not for God. Jesus talks about giving with the left hand while the right hand doesn't know what you're doing. When we lie naked beofre God, He doesn't want to hear "Boy look what I'VE done today. Aren't I wonderful!"" He wants to hear how much we need Him and how thankful we are that He is in our lives. He wants us to ask what more we can do.

Whatever good deeds I've done, all i feel is how much I haven't done. For example, we bought a beautiful house last year. Every day I walk around and think about how many people the money we paid for this house can feed. I mean it's not an ostentatious house but still, if I have not sold all my belongings and given to the poor, I'm indulging in some form of greed. I don't believe I am strong enough to do that right now, but maybe someday I will be. I can handle my guilt because I know I'm loved anyway which makes me strive to have Him lessen my sin everyday.

I have nothing to add here that wasn't already so well said by both Heidi and Pilgrim. I only pray that lots of people read this,
especially those who know not that they need to be born again. A great thread Heidi. Praise the Lord.

Heidi -

I am a bit confused by your post. You say you invited Christ into your life but nothing happened. Are you saying you were saved at that point and the Holy Spirit "waited" to come to you?

I'm saying that God decided when He was going to come to me, not me. He is the only who knew when I would know who He was.  He allowed circumstances in my life to get me to the point where I would recognize Him. He decided when the apostle Paul and Peter and ANYONE of us comes to him. I don't believe that WE make the decisions of the universe. God's timing is perfect. Even though Peter wanted to believe that Christ was the messiah when Christ died on the cross, he couldn't. But if he had, then he would have been killed along with Christ. It wasn't until the Holy Spirit came to him at pentecost that he could turn around and give his life up for Christ. But he couldn't do it before because he hadn't received the Holy Spirit yet.

This to me is similar to people who profess Christ as their savior when they are confirmed. Most do it to graduate from confirmation classes and go home. It is only when we are at the end of ourselves that we are ready to surrender to God. I know many, many people who have gone to altar calls and done what the pastor wanted them to do to receive Christ. But God is the only one who knows if their hearts are sincere or not.

Heidi-

I believe that God calls to each of us throughout our lives. However, I believe that when you are saved, the Holy Spirit enters. That is what salvation is about. You can pray the prayer but it is a matter of our heart. When we desire to die to our own selfish nature and take on Christ, that is salvation.

Atheist, God alone knows our hearts and whether or not we are ready to receive salvation. Your vigorous defense of your beliefs is an indication that you would not be receptive to the Holy Spirit. But you have to ASK Him. In fact, if you are truly looking for answers (which i tend to doubt), you will ask God, not us, for evidence. Even if you don't believe He's there now, tell Him that! But you have to be willing to see that your beliefs might be wrong before you are ready to ask God for answers. I asked God twice to come into my life. The first time I didn't receive the Holy Spirit. The second time I did. God knew when i was ready.

I have to say that if you ask Jesus to be your Lord and Savior, because you have become aware you need one,
and you truly mean it, you are then and there born again.
The Holy Spirit comes to live in your spirit.
As for when the Holy Spirit comes "upon" you, as in Acts, that is different. That is the baptism in the Holy Spirit, and can happen anytime after being born again, or never. Some never seek this. I was a born again Christian for 6 years before the Holy Spirit came "upon" me.
This is also called the "anointing". It is when the Holy Spirit anoints you for service. In the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit also "anointed" men of God for service when He came "upon" them.
Jesus told His born again Apostles to go and preach the gospel, heal the sick, and cast out demons; but he told them that they were to "tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high." He told them to go do all these things for Him, but that they were to wait in Jerusalem until they were "endued with power from on high." Just as Jesus did not begin His ministry until the Holy Spirit came "upon" Him, it is the same with His desciples, including each of us. He tells each of us, "seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness..." [Matt.6.33]. This is the same thing He told His desciples. The key word here is "first". We are not to try to go "doing" for Him till we first have been anointed for service by the Holy Spirit coming "upon" us.
Jesus told me to get in prayer and just seek Him. So I did.
I centered my whole being on Jesus, and then the Holy Spirit came "upon" me. It was like energy flowing through me, and lasted for maybe 15 minutes. I did not at the time know what was happening, except that God was touching me. But I instantly began to speak in tongues, though I did not know what it was then. It was 2 weeks before He revealed to me, in His Word, what had taken place. But from that day forward I began to understand the Word of God like I never had before. He then spent the next few years teaching me before calling me to be a teacher of the Word.
The reason I said many never receive it is because they basically stop seeking after being born again. As the Word says, " the harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few."
[Matt. 9.37]. Only those who seek to live and work for God will be anointed for service.
Again, I seem to have went on a bit, but I pray it helps some see a truth they maybe had not seen before.
Your brother in Christ. Roy.

Royo, my experience was much different' I wanted to believe before the Holy Spirit came into me. But I didn't know He was real until I received the Holy Spirit. That is when i first KNEW Him. I couldn't do it without the Holy Spirit. That is when i was born again of the spirit which is how Jesus described it.

Heidi, my dear sister, I was not really commenting about your experience, for we all experience being born again differently.
It is between each of us and the Lord as to when and if that has taken place. He will assure us when it does. He will make sure we know that we have been born again.
But I did want to say a few words for all who may be reading this thread. As to exactly what takes place when we are born again, we are told in [Ezekiel 36.26,27].
"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.   I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgements and do them."
Just a few thoughts for any who may not have seen this truth already.  Roy.

Amen, Royo. The reason i think i experienced it in the way that i did was that I was not raised in the church but instead in an atheistic household. The people I have talked to who heard the word when they were youger had different experiences than I did. But i always love to hear other perspectives. But like you were saying, the important thing is to have God's love in our hearts.  

There isnt a time when the Holy Spirit becomes "activated", but dwells in us from the time we are saved. We then begin a lifelong process of transformation from the inside out.

That's fascinating to me, Suzie, because my experience was so blatant. I guess it's easy for me to know when i was saved because it was like night and day. It's hard for me to identify with others whose experience was more gradual but I'd like to hear about those experiences.

Pilgrim said:
If it is required to believe in the heart and confess with the lips how could a baby ever become saved. As you point out she had no ability to know the gospel through intellect, she wasn’t able to believe in her heart (why not?), nor was she capable of confessing with her mouth.
This is an important question I’m going to repeat it.
How can a baby be saved if they must believe in the heart and confess with the mouth?
But the bible tells us John the Baptist was saved while he was still in the womb:

Luke 1:41  And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Luke 1:42  And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
Luke 1:44  For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

John leapt for joy while still in the womb. How could an unborn child do that?
Samson was a Nazarite to God from the womb until death, two others were Nazarites their entire life, Samuel and John the Baptist:

Judges 13:7  But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.



The Lord chose the term “Born” for a very good reason. The first time you were born, what did you contribute? Did you get your parents together?
You can contribute just as much to your second birth as you did the first, nothing.
Believing is a work, not our work, Gods work. Jesus made this very clear:

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent

When we isolate verses of scripture we can come up with all sorts of gospels. If you isolate verses you can even support reincarnation. That is why it is so important to check doctrine against scripture.

Romans 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

This has a companion verse:

Proverbs 16:1  The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

It is entirely Gods work.
I am bothered by this because this idea that you must do something to get yourself saved is not the gospel I find in the bible.
That would be a salvation plan that would be unfair. All sorts of people could legitimately claim they never had a chance to believe and confess. Since they had never heard of Jesus. You even pointed this out when you said, “having heard the Gospel”.
The bible makes it very clear that you can’t believe unless you hear:

Romans 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Believing, faith, confessing, these are all results of salvation not the cause.
The cause is because God changes us. We become an entirely different creature. Man has a heart that is totally depraved. So God gives us a new heart:

Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Ezekiel 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Hebrews 10:16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Hebrews 10:17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.


Notice it is God that does the work. This is what it means to be born again.

Left Coast, you just brought up a fascinating point that I have always wondered about. I received the holy Spirit when i was pregnant with my son. Ever since i can remember, my son, from when he could barely talk, has always loved Jesus. At that point we didn't talk about Jesus in our home too much because i didn't want to shove it down his throat. But I have sensed the Holy Spirit in that kid from day one. He goes to a Christian school and teachers are amazed at his innate understanding of scripture. I know that something entered me when i received the Holy Spirit because i felt it. I've always sensed that my son received it too.

I believe it is possible.
I wish I had that kind of comfort with my children, well they're not really children anymore.
 

I do not believe that the Spirit needs to be "activated."  God works in us only as much as we allow Him to.  He can work through us despite us, but He works as much as we allow Him to.  Heidi, salvation occurs the moment we truly give our hearts to the Lord, but it continues throughout our life. It is called sanctification. As we give more and more of ourselves to Him, and know Him more and more intimately, He can and does do give us greater wisdom, power and insight to Him. We have to do some "work" as well. We need to get into the Word and have a daily walk with the Lord, deepen our prayer, become part of the body of Christ to be discipled, mentored, encouraged, and serve Him as He directs.  

PS I forgot to add about salvation.....The Bible gives no indication that John the Baptist was saved while in the womb. If infants are saved, especially in the womb, then there really isnt a need for a savior is there?

If you read the gospel of John, Suzie, you'll read that the Holy Spirit IS what makes us believe. We cannot "muster up" faith if we don't have it. It's much like trying to understand another langueage without an interpreter. Jesus says, "I can do nothing without my Father". He doesn't give credit to Himself for what He knows or can do. He gives it to God. What do you think it is that's making us go His way? Certainly not the devil, and certainly not my intelligent self. We are either ruled by the Holy Spirit or the devil. Scrutinize the gospel of John. It's all in there.

God seeks out all to become His children. We have free will to choose to accept His invitation or not. God foreknows who will answer, but it is our decision.

When we make that decision and turn our lives over to Christ we then die to self and live for Christ. It is no longer we who live, but Christ lives in us. He lives in us through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit seals us to eternity. We then begin a process of sanctification, becoming more and more Christlike as we grow in Him.  
We are saved by grace through faith. Faith is believing and trusting in Jesus Christ. When we reach out in faith to accept the gift of salvation it is all we have to do.

But faith itself is a gift. It doesn't come from our own superior intelligence. It comes from the holy Spirit. As for "free" will, we all respond to whatever rules us at the time. Our "decisions" come from our least stressful option. i don't believe it's free. If a woman is a battered wife, for example, she may want to leave. But until her fear of her husband is greater than her fear of leaving, she will stay.  It isn't a free will choice. We are slaves to whatever masters us. I'd like to be perfect but i can't be. I can only come from my own maturity level.

I believe that what the bible means by free will is that God provided the devil's way and His way. He had to do this so that we would get to the point where would understood why we need Him. If He hadn't provided a devil to tempt us, then we would be perfect and hence, wouldn't need to choose Him. Nevertheless, we are accountable. What comes out of me comes back to me, much like a river returning to its source. That can't be changed.

I am really not sure what point you are attempting to make here. Jesus saves us. Nothing we can do can earn that. All we must do is accept and believe. We are not saved before we do that. God makes the gift of salvation available to all, however, we have the ability to accept or reject this offer. If we accept by faith through God's grace we are saved.

In the Image of Christ
Colossians 3:8-11

“Another Gospel?”

    “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any [ man ] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”        Galatians 1:6-9

        If the apostle Paul marveled at what he witnessed in the Galatian church two thousand years ago, what do you think his response would be if he examined the professing church today? Paul was amazed that the Galatians fell for a counterfeit gospel so quickly after receiving the true gospel. In fact, he openly doubted that they were truly saved because of the false gospel they now embraced (Gal. 4:11, 20). This tragic situation was so severe that the apostle Paul pronounced a curse on anyone teaching a false gospel, whether man or an angel from heaven.
        Someone apparently came to the Galatians after they received the true gospel, and began to teach them that besides believing, they also needed to be circumcised and keep the Mosaic law in order to be saved, thus perverting the true gospel. Today we have many different so-called “Christian” denominations that in one way or another do the same.
        One example of such teaching is the Belgic Confession, Article 34 on baptism. According to the Psalter Hymnal used by the Christian Reformed Church, the Belgic Confession is its oldest doctrinal standard. The Psalter Hymnal also states:

        “The text, not the contents, was revised again at the Synod of Dort in 1618-19 and adopted as one of the doctrinal standards to which all officebearers in the Reformed churches were required to subscribe. The confession stands as one of the best symbolical statements of Reformed doctrine. The translation presented here is based on the French  text of 1619 and was adopted by the Synod of 1985 of the Christian
Reformed Church” (underlining added).

        The error in this document is quite similar to the error in which the Galatians found themselves. Near the very beginning of the document we read these words, “Having abolished circumcision which was done with blood, he established in its place the sacrament of baptism.” Yet no where is this taught in the Holy Scriptures. The proof text used to support their position is Colossians 2:11-12, which states:

    “In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”

        However, please notice that these verses do not say that baptism replaced circumcision. In fact, the circumcision mentioned in these verses is not even physical circumcision, but rather spiritual circumcision. It is a circumcision made without hands, by the faith of the operation of God. Therefore, to say that physical baptism replaced physical circumcision based upon these verses, is to make a very poor and incorrect interpretation that twists the clear meaning of the text. The circumcision mentioned in these verses is what takes place today in the hearts of those who are saved by placing their trust in the Lord Jesus Christ.
        Article 34 of the Belgic Confession goes on to proclaim,  “By it we are received into God’s Church and set apart from all other people and alien religions, that we may be dedicated entirely to him, bearing his mark and sign. It also witnesses to us that he will be our God forever, since he is our gracious Father.” (underlining added).  Again, no where in the Scriptures does it teach that being baptized places a person in the church. The church is not a building made up of brick and mortar, wood and nails, nor is it a denomination that we have joined. The church is the body of Christ. It is made up of individuals who have placed their trust in the Lord Jesus for the salvation of their souls. We gain entry into God’s church and become God’s children by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, not by being baptized as this man-made document and doctrine claims (Jn. 1:11-13, 1 Pet. 2:4-10, Eph. 1:15-3:21).  
        The same Article 34 teaches baptismal regeneration (salvation by baptism), for it claims that a person is received into the church of God and that God becomes our Father through baptism. Article 34 continues in its teaching of baptismal regeneration as follows: (underlining added)

    “In this way he signifies to us that just as water washes away the dirt of the body when it is poured on us and also is seen on the body of the baptized when it is sprinkled on him, so too the blood of Christ does the same thing internally, in the soul, by the Holy Spirit.
    It washes and cleanses it from its sins and transforms us from being the children of wrath into the children of God.  This does not happen by the physical water but by the sprinkling of the precious blood of the Son of God, who is our Red Sea, through which we must pass to escape the tyranny of Pharoah, who is the devil, and to enter the spiritual land of Canaan.
    So ministers, as far as their work is concerned, give us the sacrament and what is visible, but our Lord gives what the sacrament signifies - namely the invisible gifts and graces; washing, purifying, and cleansing our souls of all filth and unrighteousness; renewing our hearts and filling them with all comfort; giving us true assurance of his fatherly goodness; clothing us with the “new man” and stripping off the “old” with all its works.
    For this reason we believe that anyone who aspires to reach eternal life ought to be baptized only once without ever repeating it - for we cannot be born twice. Yet this baptism is profitable not only when the water is on us and when we receive it but throughout our entire lives.”

        This man-made doctrine claims that as a person (many of which are infants) is sprinkled with water at his baptism, so the Holy Spirit does the same thing to his soul with the blood of Christ, and that he is cleansed from his sin and transformed from a child of wrath into a child of God. Honestly friends, you would be hard pressed to come up with a more clear teaching of baptismal regeneration than Article 34 of the Belgic Confession. If the Apostle Paul announced such a severe curse on those that taught that salvation was through circumcision and law keeping, what do you think he would say to those that teach Article 34 of the Belgic Confession as holy doctrine? After all, this document makes almost the identical claim as that of the false teachers in the Galatian church. Article 34 of the Belgic Confession teaches that baptism replaces circumcision and that by it a person becomes a child of God . We can be sure that the Apostle Paul would have cursed anyone teaching this false gospel as well. He was very zealous for the true gospel, the “apostolic” gospel. Let us remember that the Apostle Paul was the one who wrote these words in the book of Romans:

    “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also the Greek”.  Romans 1:16

        The true gospel has the power to save every soul that believes it, and a false gospel has the power to doom every soul that believes it.  Dear friend, I have not written to offend or incite argument, but out of concern for your soul. Let me ask you, what gospel do you believe? Only the true gospel will save you from the wrath of God.

Visit our web site for more articles and information at  http://nlbchapel.org

pilgrim

Thank you so much for that text, Pilgrim. This has been my battle with the Lutheran Church. Their baptismal doctrine infuriates me and what's more, they don't care. This just re-enforces the validity of Christ's words about few being saved, and false teachers of the law. I have had lengthy conversations with Lutheran pastors, and I am convinced they do not have the Holy Spirit in them. If that is the case, their eyes have been blinded. Sometimes I feel like Jesus did at the temple with the money changers. (I know i can't truly identify with Jesus, but His anger was at people using the temple for self-serving purposes).  I alternate between fury which makes me want to witness to them and resignation that this what's meant to be. I know where you're coming from, Pilgrim.

I was not going to reply in this thread again, but now I have to.
Left coast: you stated; "John the Baptist was saved while he was still in the womb."
This is impossible. First off, the scriptures nowhere say this. It is you who have said this, not God.
Secondly: it was not possible for ANYONE to be saved until Jesus died upon the cross for our sins. So John could not have been saved yet.
Lastly: there is much more I could say, but Suzie has already said it as well or better than I could have.
Love to you all in Christ.  Roy.

Royo
It is very possible. Why would you say it is not?
The great joy we have is salvation.
What does the following verse mean to you?

Luke 1:44  For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

Why would an unborn child leap for joy at the salutation of Mary.
People were saved before Jesus. The bible tells us Noah was saved.

Genesis 6:8  But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD
Titus 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

I don’t know what your beliefs are so I’m not sure how to answer you.
Are you one of those that say babies can’t be saved, I would suggest you review the story of David’s son.
Are you one of those that claim there is an age of accountability? What is it and where does the bible mention it.
Are you one of those that claim babies don’t sin? The bible says all have sinned.
C. H. Spurgeon in his sermon, “Infant Salvation”

Salvation is by grace.
What happened to the faithful in the old testament?

Matthew 17:2  And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Matthew 17:3  And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
 
If they weren’t saved where did Moses and Elias come from?

I think you're both right. Before Christ came to the earth, obviously no one could accept Him. BUT the ones whose names are written in the book of life will be raised on judgment day. Since they didn't have the chance to know Christ on earth, they were given the Holy Spirit from God alone. In this since, they have been saved by Grace and will know Christ when they see Him. I believe it is the Holy Spirit that saves because Christ died for all of us but the Holy Spirit inside of us is what heaven is. Even though Isaiah and the other prophets in the Old testament lived before Christ, the Holy Spirit in them is what led them to prophecy. The Holy Spirit wasn't given to the world until after Christ's death but God did give it to whom He chose before Christ lived. The ones to whom He gave it after christ lived, instantly recognize Christ as the son of God. I believe one can be saved in the womb and those are the people who, when they hear christ's words, instantly believe it.

Then Heidi and Left, you saying that God has already chosen those who will be saved. There is nothing we can do for we are born to be saved or to go to hell. God has appointed and anointed, and the rest are just putting in time.

suzi
That is very close to the truth.

Psalms 65:4  Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

2 Timothy 1:9  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Acts 2:47  Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Romans 8:28  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Romans 8:29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Romans 8:31 ¶ What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Yes God has already decided who he is going to save. But no one is predestined to hell. That is the direction for every one of us. I view it somewhat like this:
We are drowning in the ocean we are all going to die, God pulls some out of the ocean, they are saved. Those that drown cannot claim he was unfair.
On the other hand if he told some that he would save everyone that clapped their hands together three times the ones he did not tell could claim it was unfair they would have clapped if they had know.
I realize that is not a very good example but I hope it is sufficiant.
Only a fool would decide since God will only save those he has chosen they will do nothing to gain salvation.
I remember thinking I was going to do everything in my power to get myself saved. I wanted to show God I was serious. I remember telling God I would be happy if I was the lowest in His kingdom but please don't let me be without you.
It begins with repentence. That is why John the Baptist came before Jesus. And Jesus' first sermon was on repentence.

Matthew 4:17  From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

I wanted to know what the bible had to say and I began to read beginning each time with a prayer.
God I'm not sure who you are but I believe the truth is found here in the bible please show me the truth. Even if I am never saved please let me know the truth.
I didn't even know if Jesus was true or a fake.
Most of all we can only cry out to God to have mercy. It won't guarantee salvation, but who knows perhaps God will be merciful.
But when we want to be saved on our conditions it is very possible God will reject you.  

Suzie, Jesus says in John, 15:16, "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit-fruit that will last." BUT you can be consoled by the fact that if He has planted the desire in you, you have been chosen because whoever seeks, will find. That is a fact. The ones who haven't been chosen could care less whether they find. It wouldn't bother them at all not to find God.

God chose us. Humankind. He chose to bring a Savior so that all could find salvation. He calls to everyone. The Savior is available for everyone. Anyone who believes and accepts his offer will be saved. It isnt just for a limited few. It is available to all. Not all will respond. We all are born to sin. It is our nature. None of us desires what is right. We desire what would benefit ourselves. It is only when we come to the realization that we on our own power can do nothing, is when we can desire a better way. Some seek out other things, but those who turn to God, and are truly seeking Him, He will reveal Himself.

None of us knows who will be chosen. Anyone in the world can be chosen. But it is the Holy Spirit that makes us believe and the Holy Spirit comes from God. Jesus said, "Few will enter..." Once a person receives the Holy Spirit it is almost impossible for him to reject the holy Spirit which is why it is the only unforgivable sin. When I'm studying a new language and don't have an interpreter, i can't understand it. But once an interpreter interprets is for me, it is almos impossible NOT to understand the language. The people who don't enter haven't rejected the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit reveals to him who Christ is. The people who don't enter, do not have the holy Spirit in them to understand that Christ is th messiah. That is why it is God who chooses, not us. I don't make the decisions of the Universe. But if He has planted the desire in me for Him, I have been chosen because he who seeks will find. But it is not of my own superior intelligence that i come to Him. It is the from the Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:13  "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"

Pilgrim

I am sorry to say it this way, but I am amazed sometimes at how people can so misunderstand such a basic truth.
First: those who lived before Christ did not have the Holy Spirit living IN them, they had The Holy Spirit COME UPON THEM, and were thus anointed for service. Just as Jesus foretold would happen to the desciples in Acts. "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you..."
[Acts 1.8]. Notice it says the Holy Spirit will come UPON you.
These are born again desciples He is speaking to. (we see when they were born again in John 20.22, "And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "receive the Holy Spirit"].
All those who lived before Christ, who put their faith in the promised Messiah who would come, were taken to a place called "Abraham's Bosom", or "paradise". This is why Peter tells us that Jesus went and preached the good news to the dead. Even though their faith placed them in Abraham's Bosom instead of hell, (see Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16.19-31), they still had to make their own decision to be saved, which is why Jesus went to "preach" to them.
If anyone could be saved before Jesus died upon the cross, then Why did the Word have to take on flesh, become the man Jesus, suffer shame, and die a horrible death to provide salvation?
Love in Christ, Roy.

Pilgrim
I forgot to answer your reply #28
How right you are Paul would indeed be shocked.
When we view how quickly churches fall away from their foundation. Think about the Episcopalian church with a gay bishop.
The Southern Baptist Church was originally Calvinist in philosophy. Now they have gone the complete opposite direction and have become Arminian.
This is so true almost every church today has gone to a gospel in which it is required of us to do something to get ourselves saved. Some require the Lords supper, some baptism, some you must confess in front of the church, some you have to give money, but the most popular works gospel puts salvation on your act of believing.
Did you notice that in addition to speaking about circumcision in chapter two he made it very clear that it was entirely God that saved him.

Galatians 1:11  But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Galatians 1:12  For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Galatians 1:15  But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace,

Revelation:
An uncovering, a bringing to light of that which had been previously wholly hidden or only obscurely seen. From Easton’s bible dictionary.

When God saves us the result is we believe, but believing is not what gets us saved.
Consider the paralyzed man in Mark. His friends lower him down through the roof so Jesus can heal his body but Jesus forgave his sins.

Mark 2:5  When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

They didn’t know Jesus could forgive sins, they had complete faith that Jesus could heal his body. Yet he was given salvation. Not because He believed Jesus was the savior, not by confession of the lips not by baptism in water but solely by the gift from Jesus.
It is a gift that took no effort by him to receive.
Every Christmas I receive such a gift. My employer drives down to the bank (our system of direct deposit) and puts money in my account for my bonus.  

Roy there are many people here who believe things differently than you do. Many of us are good students of the bible.
I understand what you are saying but you are wrong.
There was a time for me when pride got in the way of truth. I was so certain I was right I didn’t consider I could be wrong.
Now I approach the bible with a much more humble attitude.
I want to learn, but for me to learn I need good solid scriptural support. You didn’t give any.
Lazarus and the rich man is a parable. It didn’t happen. It is a picture of the remorse and sorrow of someone who is unsaved.
He can see but he is dead, the dead don’t see. Water represents the gospel now that he is lost he wishes he could have it.
When we die the unsaved go to a place of silence.

Psalms 115:17  The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
 
The saved go to be with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
 
Abraham's Bosom is a synonym for heaven, it is only used in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Paradise is also heaven the word only appears on three places:

Luke 23:43  And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
2 Corinthians 12:4  How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Revelation 2:7  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Where do you find this in the bible?

It is true Jesus had to finish the process. But because he was God he would. This does not diminish the fact that those before the cross also were saved.
Salvation is by Grace.
Jesus paid for my sins before He died on the cross.
The payment that is required is to spend an eternity in Hell for each sin. The payment only needs to be made once. That is why Jesus could not have paid for the sins of every single person on earth. If Jesus paid the penalty then it wouldn’t be paid again. Even Hindus, Muslims, Satanists, or atheists would never have to go to hell because Jesus can’t give the suffering back.

Matthew 12:40  For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Lets count backwards.
Sunday    Day 1
Sat. night   Night 1
Sat.        Day 2
Fri. night   Night 2
Friday      Day 3
Thur. night   Night 3
Where was Jesus Thursday night? In the garden of Gethsemane. That is when He began suffering, we see a key when it says he sweated as it were great drops of blood.

Luke 22:44  And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

On the cross before He died He cried out it is finished.

John 19:30  When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

He still had to overcome death but He was finished paying for the sins of those He came to save.

Acts 1.8 has nothing to do with the old testament saints. I don’t know how you came up with such an idea.
I am going to ask this question again:
Why would an unborn child leap for joy at the salutation of Mary?
If we have to make a decision to become saved, how does a baby become saved? Does a baby make that decision?
Is a baby saved, then they lose their salvation, then they believe and get their salvation back? If we can lose our salvation do we have to believe over and over again?
I don’t understand your doctrines even though once upon a time I believed salvation was dependent on my freewill choice to accept Jesus.

I don't feel that just because JTB leap for joy he was saved.  That's a lot of speculation there.  I do believe that even in the womb that JTB knew he was in the other womb and this would make him "leap for joy".  It is also foolish to believe that no one was saved before Jesus came.  Since Adam and Eve they knew that a savior was coming and everything before hand was a picture of Christ.  It was a faith in this coming savior that saves them.  Considering the only thing that will send someone to hell is not believing in Jesus it seems sort of odd to send centuries of people to hell for something they couldn't even believe.

I do have some questions for people though.  

Is something a gift if you don't accept it?  I mean, if I give you something and you leave it on the door step, is it a gift to you just because of my intentions?  Does it really require a whole lot to say thank you and accept a gift?  Would that really make you have a part in aquiring something that someone else freely gave you?

S4e
.
So John, as an unborn child, heard that Jesus was in the other womb. He new who Jesus was and that made him so happy he leapt. But he wasn’t saved. An unborn child has the ability to do this?
If it is not all Gods work how do babies become saved?
Believing is the result of salvation not the cause. Believing isn’t just having an intellectual understanding of Jesus, it means we have total and complete faith in Him and in His work of salvation.
Salvation happens when God gives us a new heart.
We are commanded to believe.

1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

We will only keep Gods commandments if He has given us a heart that can keep his commandments.

Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Ezekiel 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

He makes it clear that this is the way of salvation in Hebrews:

Hebrews 10:16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Hebrews 10:17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Can you see that believing on our part is a result of our keeping Gods commandment because He has changed us?
You made a very good point but lets expand it a little.
Believing is not available to those that have never heard of Jesus. Many people through out the centuries have never heard of Jesus. How about someone in Tahiti in the year 300.
Would it be fair for God to put our salvation in our hands and then not tell everyone how to do it?
Concerning your questions.
The gift God gives cannot be refused.
I’m going to make up a story.
Two twin brothers Mark and Bob are best friends.
Bob has a massive heart attack and is on life support. He is totally unconscious.
Mark in his hurry to get to his brother causes an accident, Mark dies. But before he does he requests that they give his brother his heart.
Bob comes back to consciousness with Marks heart.
Can Bob refuse this gift?
(Any resemblance to anyone living or dead is purely coincidental.)
This is the gift that God gives us we don’t have a choice in the matter.

Then your answer is that gift does not need to be accepted I take it.  That was one of the questions.

I'm not so sure about your example there but I will think about.  I think for one thing, that Bob was wanting a new heart and would gladly recieve it.

I have turned down a "gift" before.

To Left Coast:
You asked where I got the scripture where Peter says Jesus went and preached to the dead. See 1 Peter 3.18,19.

To Saved_4ever.
I did not say that all those who lived before Christ did not get saved. (re-read that post). I said that all the saints before Jesus, went to paradise, (or "abraham's bosom"), and that Jesus went and preached the gospel to them during the 3 days He was "in the grave". That is why He told the one thief on the cross, "you will be with me this day in paradise." And then those saints were saved after receiving the gospel that Jesus had just preached to them.
You also say it seems odd to send centuries of people to hell for something they couldn't even believe.
They did have something to believe: the one day coming of the Messiah had been foretold by God's prophets, and it is all those who put their faith in that truth from God that put them in Abraham's bosom to await the coming of the Messiah, who  came to them in Abraham's bosom during those 3 days to preach the gospel to them, and they were saved. Including the thief on the cross.

Again to Left Coast:
I understand that there are others that believe different than me. And you seem to say that pride is making me think I am right and others wrong. I don't think that way.
If I make a bold statement that Jesus is the Son of God, and say it with authority, is that Pride? So why is it pride when I make other statements with authority? What I believe, I believe with all my heart, and speak it that way. If others have a different way of thinking about something, that is fine.
I am not out to convince them, I am only sharing what I believe to be the truth. And just as Paul or any other child of God spoke boldly the truth, so do I. Not everyone believed Paul either, but he continued to speak the truth boldly. I do not claim to know everything there is to know, but what I do know to be the truth, I will speak boldly, and with authority.
That is what this forum is about; sharing with each other. Not all will agree with me, nor I always with them. That is O.K.
So expect in the future, that weather the topic is weather Jesus is God, or some other truth, I will always speak my mind boldly. That is how men of God have spoke throughout history,
and it is how I speak. In topics where I wasn't sure, I have said so, or said nothing.
And now I am off to bed.
Love to all in Christ. Roy.

I definitely agree that we all have to speak boldly about whatever we believe the spirit is telling us. The only things that aren't opinions are God's words. But how we interpret them are opinions. I am going to give your opinions some intense thought and prayer, Royo. This is a topic I have always wondered about but haven't felt it upon my heart to pray for yet. It certainly sounds plausible.

Bob didn't know he had a bad heart. Just as most of us don't realize that our heart is corrupt.

Genesis 8:21  And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Jeremiah 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Gods salvation is based on giving us the new heart.
The question is what is the heart? That is something to look into when I have more time.

Not so!

"FAITH comes by hearing the Word of God"!
and we know from other scriptures that HEARING ALONE is not enough.
So that "HEARING " of the Word is with UNDERSTANDING.
Faith IN GOD therefore comes when we UNDERSTAND the MESSAGE of GOD!
But ALL men have faith acccording to what faith "IS" and excersise it every day wether saved or unsaved.
Faith only becomes SAVING faith when it is put in God.

To further the 'argument'
The HOLY SPIRIT cannot come in that which is yet not saved!
seeign that HE is HOLY and we are not being DEAD and unsaved.
But when the WORD is PREACHED  then He MOVES upon the WORD and QUICKENS it to our UNDERDSTANDING so that understanding what WE are and knowing then what God is.
We fing that we are in need of a SAVOUR.
and as the Word is further preached concening Christ and the cross we see GODS answer not only for our sin but also HIS establishment and upholding of the law.
and so understanding what we must do......REPENT we turn oursleves and our faith from everythign else and to HIM.
and call upon the name of the LORD.
and He in response to FAITH saves us.
and THEN the Holy Spirit seals us.
For to be BORN of the water is to be born of the WORD.
For  faith comes BY the WORD; it folows thenthat if we do not have the Word we do not have faith and we cannot please God "for without faith it is impossible to please God!
Therefore it is by the WORD ... AND the Spirit which comes upon the Word.
and brings forth the LIFE that is in it.

How do we get the ears to hear?
Doesn’t God give us the eyes to see and the ears to hear?

Deuteronomy 29:4  Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
Matthew 16:16  And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Matthew 16:17  And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
2 Corinthians 4:3  But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2 Corinthians 4:4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
2 Corinthians 4:5  For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake.
2 Corinthians 4:6  For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
Luke 24:45  Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Ephesians 1:18  The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Faith is a work.

1 Thessalonians 1:3  Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

So faith cannot save us.
This is a true statement:The question seems to be HOW DO WE GET THAT UNDERSTANDING?
How does He ’move’ upon the word? How does He ’quicken’ it to our understanding.
We can have an intellectual understanding of our need for a savior. This should cause all sorts of attempts to get ourselves ’right’ with God. We can know we are sinners and repent the best we can from our sins. But unless God changes us we are not saved.

1 Corinthians 2:9  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1 Corinthians 2:10  But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1 Corinthians 2:11  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

The spirit of God MUST BE IN US. His spirit witnesses with our spirit. That can only happen because we are saved.
Keeping Gods commandment, including the commandment to believe, 1 John 3:23.Doing Gods works, including the work of faith. IS THE RESULT OF BEING BORN AGAIN.
God chose the term ‘born’ for a very good reason. There is nothing we can contribute to our births.
We are born a new creature in Christ Jesus. We are changed. For me one of the best passages to explain this is:

Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

We are changed, SAVED.

Ezekiel 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

NOW we can keep His commandments and do His works.
Gerald one thing I liked that you said is, How right you are that throughout the bible water is a representation of the gospel.

John 7:38  He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

One hears, one believes, one repents, one is baptized for the remission of those repented sins, one receives the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Roy,

How do you connect, 1 Pet 3:18-19,  the spirits in prison;

With the verse that follows;

20  Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

And then state that those that perished were "saved" because Jesus went and preached to them, it is clear they perished.

Note Heb 11;

7  By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

and then 2 Pet 2;

4  For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5  And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6  And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7  And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8  (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
9  The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Make this point even clearer, those who perished in the flood, or dies as the rich man, in the story of Lazarus, whom the Lord tells of, all perished

And from verse 9 above, it is clear they and all of;

 the unjust are reserved unto the day of judgment to be punished:

How do you get these were saved out of these verses.

I am asking, because I never got this from these verses??

Petro