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Sometimes witnessing can be such a drain. The bottom line is that people can't come to Christ unless God draws them. Since we don't know who's called and who isn't, we need to tell everyone about Jesus. But there are so many who are not called and who are arrogant and positively blasphemous about God. It hurts me to hear them mock God. Sometmes I feel slapped in the face but then I think of how Jesus must have felt, dying for EVERYONE, knowing that most will mock Him for it. And atheists think people are good.  When addressed by the rich man as "good sir", Jesus relied,"why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone." That perfect man didn't even include Himself as good! How can I think that anything I do is good?

"And atheists think people are good."

Well well...how nice of you to speak for us.

I cannot see why you would think that all atheists think that people are good.  Where did you get this crazy notion from?

~AAAA

from all the atheists i talked to.

If atheists don't think God is good and they don't think people are good, then they must not think that anyone or anything is good. In other words, (and this is born out in the atheists I've talked to) they don't believe in goodness. What do they believ in? I've heard so much about what they DON'T believe in. Can an athiest tell me what he does believe in?

Wow - you guys make generalizations so quickly that it's truly SCARY.

"A few atheists don't like people, so...hey!  That must mean ALL atheists don't like people!"

Heidi - your statements were so ridiculous that I can't even make fun of them.

Let's set a few things straight.

1) Generalizations are not good, nor are they accurate.  Don't say "Atheists...etc."; say "From my experience, the atheists that I have talked to...etc."  

2) Heidi - we can't "think God isn't good" because we don't believe in God.  You don't say "I don't think magical purple unicorns are good", do you?  Exactly - because you don't believe in magical purple unicorns.  We have no opinion on the goodness or lack of goodness of God because we don't believe that God exists.

3) So you're saying the only two things that could have goodness are God and people?  How narrow-minded.  I believe in goodness...the goodness of a lot of people, of love, of friendship, of animals, of life...lots of things!  

4) What we believe depends on the individual atheist.  I cannot speak for everyone - that would be making a generalization, which is wrong (*COUGH COUGH AHEM!!!!*).

Hope this helped.

~AAAA

Why are you always so mad, AAAA??

And also, I thought you said you were an agnostic, not an "atheist"??

AAAA, there are so many things you don't understand nor have thought through. How do you even define goodness? WHose definition are you using? You have  said in your earlier post that atheists do not say people are good. But then you say that SOME people are good. Who decides? Is it arbitrary? The Ku Klux KLan thinks WHITES are good but not other races. Are they right? WHO DECIDES? THEM? They think they are right just as you think you're right. The Nazi's think that the Aryans are good but not the Jews. Who's to say that your beliefs are always right?  Don't you see that if MAN is the supreme arbitrator of who is good or not, he is also the sole arbitrator of who is evil. He is then playing God. He can then decide who should be killed or not based on the beliefs INSIDE of him. Who decides which MAN is right? Other men? Since man is imperfect and fallible, why do you trust that man has all the answers? But if you don't believe in a power higher than man, then you have no choice but to believe man!!! Which man do you believe in and why do you put your belief systemt into fallible humans? No person is right all the time. If you put your faith in man, it will crumble.

Symphony, how in the world can you say AAAA's posts showed anger? Maybe you are remembering from another thread, but at least in this one he seems rather calm and reserved, especially compared with Heidi.

And Heidi where do you get off saying atheists don't believe in good, and that they have told you that? Show that to me. Do a little cut and paste from the other threads.

Agreed! That would explain the negativity we get from so many of them. Did you ever hear such caustic speech from a group of people?

No, I haven't heard such negativity. They have a real chip on their shoulders. But then again, they have no hope. All they know is their own fallible minds. When they die, they have nothing. I suppose I'd have a chip on my shoulder too. But Christ said that their father is the father of lies so it's difficult to have an honest conversation with them. They're in my prayers.

Well, admin apparently agrees. Several of them were banned today.

I feel for them but I just felt my body relax when I read your last post. They intrigue me because I'd love to hear them come to the Lord but I know that's God's decision. And until then, they are going to be deceived so no argument will convince them. I've already prayed for them.

Heidi - stop with the stereotypes, please!!!!

"They have a real chip on their shoulders. But then again, they have no hope. All they know is their own fallible minds."

First of all - have you met EVERY atheist?  NO!!!  Then stop saying "THEY" to mean ALL atheists!!!  

Secondly, are you an atheist?  NO!!  Then stop assuming you know exactly what we know or don't know!!  This is quite arrogant of you, and not appreciated!  And by the way...it seems like the ones with the chips on the shoulders is a few Christians I know -- they think that just because they know "the truth", they are better than everyone!!  (Note that I said "A FEW" Christians...I was not making a mass stereotype/generalization.)

"When they die, they have nothing."

Interesting - I thought you believed we all went to hell.  ::)  And "atheism" simply means, entymylogically, "without religion".  Just because we don't have a religion doesn't mean we can't be spiritual.

"...so it's difficult to have an honest conversation with them."

It's only difficult to have a conversation with us because you (and I mean you specifically -- I'm not making a generalization against Christians!!) ignore logic and continue to make mass generalizations and assume you know exactly what atheists think.

I can't stand arrogance.

~AAAA

And by the way - I'm female.  Just thought I'd let you all know.

~AAAA

well if Atheists don't believe in God then they believe in man. Their only hope is in this world. But if this world is destroyed and so is man, where is their hope then? Their hope is alive only as long as they live. When they die, their lives are over FOREVER. And of course, any of us could die tomorrow. Hell is simply life without the love of God. To me it would everlasting misery because I know God. For an atheist, he dies without ever having had his sins taken away. That means his legacy on earth is what he did on earth. His good deeds were done to glorify him not to glorify God because he doesn't believe in God. That of course is selfishness. That legacy can never be taken back, unless of course, a person asks for forgiveness. But atheists don't want forgiveness and for that reason, won't receive any.

When I generalize, i'm talking about belief systems. You generalize about Christians and atheists all the time. If you call yourself an atheist, then you adhere to that belief system...unless of course, you're lying. Which is it?

Heidi can you not understand that atheists do not believe in gods? We are not mad at gods, we do not hate gods, we just do not believe they exist.

You are exactly right on one point. You said, "That means his legacy on earth is what he did on earth." That's exactly  how most of us feel. That is why you don't have atheists running around murdering and looting all over the place. We have morals and we know the world is what we make it, and there is nothing afterwards. So to quote one of my grade school teachers, I use my time wisely.

Atheism is not a belief system. The only thing atheists are guaranteed to agree on is the lack of belief in deity.

"You generalize about Christians and atheists all the time."

Isn't that a gross generalization in itself?

I, of course, have not denied generalizing and see nothing wrong with generalizing about people who profess to a certain belief system. You have identified yourself with a group of people who don't believe in God. Are you ashamed of your beliefs? If not, why do you care if someone generalizes about them?

I'll repeat what Knox said, because apparently you don't seem to get things easily.

ATHEISM IS NOT A BELIEF SYSTEM.

What more do I possibly need to do to get this point across to you!?!?!?  Go and tattoo it on your forehead!!!  Make a big giant neon sign with flashing lights that says "ATHEISM IS NOT A BELIEF SYSTEM" and put it where you can see it!!!  Make a voice recording of it and put it on full volume at constant repeat!!!

ATHEISM IS NOT A BELIEF SYSTEM!!!!!!

~AAAA

Ah, but they do have a belief system, AAAA, they believe in their own opinions. If they don't believe their opinions, why do they have them? They put their faith in themselves. Christians believe in God's word, not their own word.

Having opinions is not a belief system.

My only belief right now is that you are totally unable to understand that ATHEISM IS NOT A BELIEF SYSTEM.

~AAAA

PS - Every time I read one of your posts, a tiny blood vessel bursts in my brain. :P

I must have struck a strong nerve in you. Of course your opinions are beliefs. You endorse your belief that there is no God. To deny that is ludicrous and not even worth responding to.

The semantics can be quite tricky...let me help you out here.

Etymologically (that means "going by the word roots"), atheism means "without religion".  Atheists do not believe that "God does not exist", but simply "do not believe in God".

LACK of belief is not the same as BELIEF.

Someone can BELIEVE that God does not exist.

Or someone can NOT BELIEVE that God exists.

See the subtle difference there?  Makes all the difference in the world.

~AAAA

Absence of belief is different from belief of absence.

AAAA and I lack belief in God. This is different from saying, "there is no God." Comprenez-vous?

Do you adhere to a belief system solely because you lack belief in Zarathestros the Goat Man, Bearer of the Prehensile Goatee of Wisdom (Blessed Be His Name)?

...I thought not.

(For those of you upon whom good sarcasm is wasted... that was sarcastic.)

And if witnessing is such a drain, maybe you should stop doing it.

Then we'd all be happy! :)

Have a nice day. ;)

I witness because I care about people's souls. It isn't as hard for me as it was for Jesus to die on the cross for us, even though some hate Him for it. I take solace in that. You don't realize, Neo, that your belief that there is no God is a belief. We all put our trust in something. Atheists trust their own beliefs or they wouldn't have them. They would believe something else instead.

I'm going to explain this one more time, and I shall use small words so you'll be sure to understand.

There is a difference between absence of belief and belief of absence. I lack belief in God. I do not say, "God does not and cannot exist." I have no positive belief in reference to God.

I don't think there are any words over three syllables, so you should be all set. :)

But you don't realize, Neo, if you have no belief in a power higher than yourself, then you HAVE to believe that you are the highest power. All of us can only know what we know. You don't KNOW anything higher than your own human mind, your thoughts, your feelings, and  your beliefs. YOU BELIEVE IN YOURSELF. Even your belief that there MIGHT be a God is still a belief that you strongly endorse.

I would like to first comment on what you first said Heidi.
You said since we cannot know who God has called, we have to witness to everyone. That is not true. If we are able to hear the Holy Spirit who lives in us speak to us, He will reveal to us who is ready to hear the truth, and guide us to them, or them to us.
Smith Wigglesworth one time was having dinner with his wife and another couple. Right in the middle of the meal, he told the other man, "come on, we have to go." The other man, knowing the Godliness of Smith, just said, O.K.
They went across town to a certain spot, where Smith told his friend to stop, then got out and told his friend to wait.
He walked across the road and sat on a big rock overlooking a cliff. In a few minutes a young man came along, and then sat down beside Smith. After witnessing to this young man about salvation, Smith came back to his friend and said, "O.K., we can go now." God had sent him to a man who was ready to hear the truth. It's just that most Christians don't hear God speaking to them because they do not take the time to listen.
So they have to go about doing it blindly, in a way.
I was going to speak to the atheists here, but think I will do so in another post.
Yours in Christ. Roy.

In this post I would like to speak to AAAA and any other atheist.
I had a tenant for 5 years who said he was an atheist. During those 5 years we had some very good conversations. As people, we both respected the other. He knew how I believed, and I knew how he believed. We accepted this in each other. Many conversations were just about everyday life, but many were also about God. Even today, he stops by to chat. We are friends of sorts. I like him as a person.
Of course I pray all the time that one day God will reveal the truth to Him. (as I'm sure he would do the opposite for me, if he prayed. HeHe).
I also have another ex-tenant who was also this way. We also stay in touch. I would go so far as to say I love him. He is very special to me.
With both of these men, I neither condemn them, nor do I 'preach at them'. But many of our talks are about God. A few times our conversations got heated, and we had to stop talking about God for that time. We both knew this. But we still have conversations about God.
One thing that both did not want to hear, and that Heidi was so right about, is this: you are religious. My religion is a belief in God. Your religion is a belief that there is no God. The truest definition of 'religion' is "a person's personal belief".
You have your beliefs about life, and I have mine. Both are what would be called our "religion".
The God who created you has given you the right to believe as you so choose. I will not dispute a right that my God has given you, and so I will respect you. I will disagree with you, but I will not deny that you have the right to believe as you do. And I will not try to convert you, until such a time as my Father tells me to speak to you about His truth. But I will be praying for you. For if my Father loves you, then I must also.
What you do not realize is that He is already at work in your lives, or you would not be at this forum. He has guided you here, and And I praise Him and thank Him for your presense here among us.
So I bid you welcome, and look forward to further honest discussions with you.
Your friend in Christ our Lord. Roy.

Isn't that a generalization in itself?  Generalizations are not wrong or bad.  There will always be the exception to the rule.  Unfortunately in todays society people are taught everyone's an idividual and more important than the whole.  Sad really, very sad.


No, because I think magical purple unicorns are good.  However ugly, nasty, whinny trolls are quite evil.    :-X

"whinny trolls..."

Hahahahahaha.  That misspelling is actually cute because "whinny" is a sound a horse makes, while "whiney" is the word you were actually looking for.

Kinda takes the punch out of your post, huh?  Mmmm...too bad.

~AAAA

No, I imagine you sound like a horse.

Ahem, Neo.  Now, who is being "arrogant".  

     ???

A4, I thought your were an agnostic, not an atheist.

 
    ???

Amen Royo!!!  :)