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Recently the pope made an address confirming the existence of evolution (this can be found at my link if u are not familiar with it). He did not, however, give anything as to the relation of Jesus Christ in this address. Do we need a new pope.

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How can the pope confirm anything about our creation? He wasn't there. I've never believed the pope is a born again Christian. In fact, the only Catholics who I know are born again Christians have left the Catholic church. I'm sure there are still some in there but it's rare.

Catholics worship the church, the virgin Mary and the law. That is pharisiacal. Jesus said that many will knock at the door saying, "I ate and drank with you. I preached in your street and cast out demons in your name." But when the owner of the house closes the door, He will say "I never knew you." This can only apply to "professed believers" who have no personal relationship with Christ. The world is inundated with them. Most of the church-going community in the world are not real Christians. But this was all prophesied.

Um...Heidi?

The post is a ruse. Nobody's replying to it because the author didn't post to discuss. Check out the link.

Oh, sorry. It was just a nice vehicle for me to express my views about the Catholic church. Thanks for the info.

And you do a fine job of it...

Just proves again that Catholicism has nothing to do with Christianity.  And ProPerson, if you're a Catholic, you don't need a new pope, you need a new religion.

NOTE:  Try Christianity.

5020,

Now I don't know about THAT. I haven't seen anything yet in this thread that really proves it has nothing to do with Christianity.

People click on the link before you rant, PLEASE! This is what we on the internet like to call SPAM. The link leads to a game online. This game adds one extra person to his army every time you click the link. Go a head, click the link. The upper right hand corner click the "Report this Spammer" link and report him for wasting out time.

As for Catholics, please, learn about them before you blindly charge in and attack them. Heidi, I normally like your posts, but this one I disagree with. Catholics do not worship Mary or any other saint. Some cults do, by True Catholics do not. Church do not worship the law, either. The Law is a formality we have so that things do not get out of hand. The law this there to keep people from forming cult that worship Mary, and other things of this nature.

You are right, Most of the church-going community in the world are not real Christians. But, that encompasses more then just Catholics.

And you had one more thing incorrect. You said you don't know any Born again Catholics still in the Catholic Church? You are wrong, you're talking to 2 of them on this thread.

I saw that, but I just thought he was too stupid to realize that he had the wrong link.  There are morons in this world you know.

I had a discussion with Tibby earlier, so I will post my argument there.

We are havign that discussion right now, lol.  ;D

as for your first quote: Are we not all representatives of Christ? Why is it so wrong to say he is a high ranking representative?

and second- The Vatican II corrected that.

As to both, I say look at the dates. The bible is here to stand for all times, it is the same yesterday, today, and forever, but the Dourine is here for the present time. You can’t not quote laws several centuries old and apply them to modern times. Would we use Traffic laws from 1302 to govern our roads? Of course not! The times where different. The laws are meant to be a guild for the people in the present time.

It says he is the "vicar of Christ".  As I explained to you, vicar means "substitute in office" (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).  To say he is Christ's substitute is heretical.  Christ doesn't need a substitute.

i said that the only born again Catholics I know PERSONALLY are the ones who have left the church. But I also said i'm sure there are many IN the church, I just haven't met any. The Catholics believe we are saved when we are baptized. Most of the people I know who were baptized as infants don't know Christ personally. Also, if Catholics do things wrong, they are supposed to say several "Hail Mary's". Why? How is Mary going to atone for their sins? Also the PRIEST gives absolution. How can another human being have the power to take our sins away? That's why a lot of people call for a priest on their deathbed instead of looking up to Christ. I just feel that the institution of Catholicism is more important to catholics than Jesus Christ. That is idol worship. I also agree that the Catholic church is not the only church that places emphasis on works, sacriments, and laws more than on the salvation we get from Christ. The Lutherans are just as guilty. I haven't studied the Methodist or Prebytarian church as closely yet.

And as I explained to you: Your first problem is using a 1828 definition on a 1194 word. Your second is you are using a Secular definition on a Church word. Ask any Catholic, any priest, and he will tell you the truth of the word. Vicar isn't a replacement, he is a representative.  The Definitions the RCC uses is:

“A priest who acts for or represents another, often higher-ranking member of the clergy.”

You have to understand Catholicism to understand what Catholics think when “Vicar.” If I was the Vicar of a Bishop, and am representing him. If we are describing the Congressman of  the Southern Parts of Texas, we would call him a Vicar of Southern Texas.


I did. You second quote is no longer approved, compliments of the Vatican II.

You know, we can always pos our chat script, might just been easier then repeating everything, wouldn’t it?  ;D

That is simply not true. Protestants have Church splits over whither or not Baptist is required for salvation, and you condemn Catholics because you THINK they believe. Here is what the new advent, the biggest Catholic Site online, says about Salvation:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13407a.htm

Read it carefully. They do talk about Baptism at the end. The process of being saved takes place before hand. Being Baptized is all part of the process. Baptism is for remission of sins, just as Paul talks about in Acts.


 
This is not for Mary to forgive our sins. Before it attack this little poem, I’d advise reading it. We are asking Mary to Pray for us, as we do with all Saints. Now, there are cults that do worship Mary. Do not confuse them with the Catholic Church.



No, I refuse to get into a debate about Absolution here. This is a major topic that no one is going to agree on. If you want to still talk about this, PM me.




Keep on feeling that if you wish, but it is not correct. Now, there are Catholics who do hold the Church above God, unintentionally, of course, but they are existent, and, it is sad to say, they are a group of reasonable size. But the majority are in it for God.



And Anglican/Episcopalian and Eastern Orthodox, and Baptist and Church of Christ and Almost every other denomination in the world is just as guilty as the RCC. The only ones that don’t have people who focus more on there laws them God are groups that have no laws, like the Pentecostal, for example. But I don't see a thing from with focusing on works, sacriments, and laws after we are saved. We are Saved, now it is time to live like a Christian, and that is where the works, sacriments, and laws come in.

Heidi,


Actually Catholics believe they are redeemed through baptism. The difference is significant.


Prayer in general is always good in the wake of our own sinful acts. When I sin, I am grateful for the prayers of others to help me reconcile with those I've offended and to change my ways. Petitioning the intercessory prayers of those who are particularly holy and righteous is no different than asking a pastor to pray for us. We approach pastors and ministers in particular because very often we respect their position and believe in the sincerity of their prayer. People of particular holiness always draw us not only closer to themselves, but to God as well.


Why can't people call for a priest and look to Christ on their deathbed? It's not exactly fair to assume they do one or the other.


Let's be fair here. Is there any church in the world that has 100% membership focused on Christ and not the details of the institution? No church is being honest that doesn't admit it has some less than serious members. The Catholic Church continues to profess Christ Jesus, but their will always be those who misunderstand His message.


I could understand your asking questions Heidi to gain a better understanding, but your statement here makes an assumption that is patently false. Catholicism has never placed more emphasis on these things than actual salvation. The certainty with which you make the statement implies a certain familiarity with the Catholic faith. I'd suggest a bit more discerning before leaping to such conclusions.

Then why have I met so many catholics who think they're going to hell if they "do the wrong thing" or commit mortal sins as opposed to venial sins, or don't go to confession, or who don't go to church every Sunday? I know one catholic who left the church because she was told that she couldn't have a drop of water the night before communion or she would go to hell. Where are these catholics getting these messages? I hear much more fear in the Catholic church than in the evangelical church. The very fact that a person can be ex-communicated if they "do the wrong thing" leads me to believe that they are not forgiven by the church. I don't hear forgiveness from catholics, only judgment. Why is that?

How can a person be redeemed through baptism? Baptism is an outward declaration of faith. It is a sacriment like Communion. Several Lutheran pastors have told me that people are born again through baptism. In fact that's the official position of the ELCA. That is not scriptural and not the words of Christ.

I don't need a priest at my deathbed. i have a personal relationship with Christ and my sins are bewteen Him and God unless I want to share them with people I have offended. Only Christ's blood can purify them. In the Lutheran church, people recite a confession. After that, the pastor gives them absolution. What about the people who have only recited the words so they can get home to a football game but they have no personal relationship with Christ? How can the Priest declare their sins forgiven when they have not yet accepted Christ as their Savior? Jesus said in John 17:3, "Eternal life is this; that you know the one true God and Jesus Christ His son." A priest declaring that my sins are forgiven will do nothing to get me to heaven if I don't know God and His son, Jesus Christ. The key word in that phrase is "know". Everybody knows ABOUT Christ, even Osama Bin Laden. But only the ones who know Him personally and have the Holy Spirit inside them will get to heaven. The Holy Spirit IS heaven and it will never go away, even through eternity. If a person doesn't have the Holy Spirit in Him, He doesn't have the knowledge of the kingdom of heaven within him or the kingdom of heaven to come. No priest can give us that. The Holy Spirit comes from God.

Why have I met so many Protestants who think the same thing? It has nothing to do with and particular denomination, it is the stereotypical view of god as the big man in the sky with a bat ready to hit us. This view of God as the Cosmic Kill-joy is held by weaker minded Christian from all across the board. It is a misconception held by many people, not just Catholics. I'm sorry, but these so-called Catholics you have met do not know what they are talking about.


I don't hear understanding from you, only judgment. Much of what you have said about Catholics thus far is the same in most if not all Protestant Churches. Why is that? Here is a thought, maybe, just maybe, the Catholic Church has these problems because they are Christians, who have the same mindsets and attitudes that their bothers have.



Not scriptural? Perhaps you should do some research on Catholic Apologetic before you state such a thing. It is scriptural to use Baptist for remission of sins. See Luke 3, which shows John the Baptist clearly taught Baptism did forgive sins. If baptism isn’t so important, then why would Jesus have said in The Great Commission “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.” Does it tell us to make them go to an alter when it is called, does it say you have to pray with a minister? Does it say to hand out tracks? No. He tells us to Baptist them, and teach them. Why would Jesus directly address Baptizing people, and not make a direct reference to Salvation or being born-again?



I'm glad you are an island unto yourself.



Unless you WANT to share them with people you offended? Did James 5:16 sound like a suggestion to you? When you read it, does it strike you as some random thought you may choose to or not to follow through with?



Again, these are things that are as rampant in the Protestant Church as much as the Catholic church. Protestants are just as bad about being “Once-a-week Christians” as Catholics are. Let he that has no sin...



Ya think? Where in Catholic doctrine does it say we get the Holy Spirit from a Priest? Heidi, I love ya, girl, and you zeal is to be admired, but please, I beg you, do not cast your brothers and sisters in Christ aside because of a few bad apples ran their mouth without any clue that they are saying.

I'm not judging the Catholic church. I'm just rying to understand why I hear SO MUCH of beings saved by works and less of a personal relationship with God. In the E-Free churches, a personal relationship with God is ALWAYS talked about. In fact, the pre-requisite of becoming a member of the E-Free IS that you have a personal relationship with God. I know some Catholics who go there who are furious that they were never taught that. In fact for hundreds of years, catholic mass was taught in LATIN. One can only conclude that the point of the mass wasn't something they cared if people understood. What was important was that they accepted that the clergy knew and that was who we looked up to.  What else is that but worshipping the clergy, including the pope? I am just trying to understand why all of these things are taught. I can tell you, many, many people have not understood the message of salvation from cathiolics. Something is wrong here. I also agree that these things are as rampant in the Protestant churches which is my point. Why is the message of salvation obscured by so many rituals and sacriments? I can understand why lay people believe in works but clergy?

John the Baptist makes a VERY clear distinction between being born again with water and born again with the holy Spirit. He said baptism prepares the way but that a greater man than he will baptize with the Holy Spirit. If baptism saves, then why would a person ALSO need baptism with the Holy Spirit? If baptism and the Holy Spirit are one then why in Acts are Peter and John sent to witness to people who have been baptized with water but not by the Holy Spirit yet?

I received the Holy Spirit from God later in life even though I was baptized with water as an infant. The person who poured water over my head (the priest) did not give me the Holy Spirit. Only God gave it to me, just like Christ gave it to the world. John the baptist baptized with water and Christ baptizes with the Holy Spirit. It is the same way today but since John is dead, he is replaced by another person (priest). Christ is still alive and it is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit IS what shows us who Christ is. If people get it at baptism then why do most of the people I've talked to who have been baptized as an infant not KNOW Christ?

As for being an island unto myself, maybe you need a priest at your deathbed, but I just need Christ. If people want to be at my deathbed because they care, that's up to them. But I don't NEED a priest to be saved.

You admit these things are rampant in the Protestant church, and claim it was your point. It was not your point. Your point was Catholics are not saved. It was only after I said the Protestants have the same problems the Catholics do that you realized your logic was flawed. And you are not trying to understand. If you where, you would not have repeated all of this in three posts already.

As for the Latin masses, the Church saw there problem, and changed. And if you would have known more about the Latin form of mass, you might not have been so fast to judge. Read a little bit about how they are operated, I think it will help you understand the Catholic Church more, and there attitude toward God.



Does one have to be Baptized in the holy spirit to be saved? I don’t see where it says that is a requirement of being saved. The fact that Paul and John went to teach to those who have been baptized in Water, but not the Holy Spirit PROVE my point. These people where already saved, already baptized, already Christians, but they did not have the holy spirit. Why did they say “Baptized in water, but not the Holy Spirit” when they could have said “Saved by not baptized in the holy spirit?”

I never said a thing about Water Baptism  giving us the Holy Spirit, you are the one who inferred that. As you said, you where water baptized, but you where giving the Holy Spirit later in life.


No joke. We Catholics understand this. Why don’t you tell that to your Protestant friends who insist if you did not say the sinners prayer with a Minister at and alter call, then you are not saved! Tell that to the guys who think you have to have a “magic moment” with a pastor or preacher during the service. Tell that to the Protestant church goers who go up EVERY TIME there is an alter call! They seem to thing salvation only come from the alter.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that yes, Catholics have problems, but they are the same problems Protestants deal with, on the same scale? Let he that has no sin cast the first stone. Let he who's sect has not flaws be the first to condemn Catholics!



Perhaps because they rejected him. As you said, all the saved Catholic you know are no longer Catholics, so you really don’t know how that Infant baptism effected them, now do you? Well, you were baptized as an infant, and you seem to have turned out pretty good. Jesus was fine with letting the Little Children come into him. Why do you have such a problem with it?



FINALLY! You are starting to understand the Catholic Church!

First of all, i hear a lot of defensiveness in you about the Catholic church. I'm not attacking you, I'm questioning the catholic church.

I have believed for a long time that other denomintations, not just catholics are teaching things that don't appear to be scriptural. My life lately has been dealing with the Lutheran church on these very issues. So no, I haven't been just singling out the catholics.  I've challenged the doctrine of some protestant churches this past year.  

As for saying that you don't have to be baptized with the Holy Spirit to be saved, THAT IS WHAT BEING SAVED IS. Jesus says in John, 17:3, "Eternal life is this; that you know the one true God and Jesus Christ, His son."  We are incapable of knowing Christ without the holy Spirit. It is all through the gospel of John. None of us by our own power can "deduce" who Christ is without the Holy Spiirt. That's why no one really understood who Christ was until the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost. Then most of them gave up their lives for Him. When the Holy Spirit takes up residence in us, it never goes away even throughout eternity. In that passage in Acts, Peter and Joh SPECIFICALLY went to those people to lay hands on them because they hadn't RECEIVED the Holy Spirit. They had just been baptized with water.

As for the people who supposedly received the Holy Spirit at baptism then rejected it and received it again, that is impossible because rejection of the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin. Nobody can be saved again after they reject it.

 If you don't think the Holy Spirit saves, then you must not have it in you or you would recognize its power.

Jesus says you have to be born again of water and the SPIRIT to receive the kingdom of heaven. How do YOU think a person is saved?

Act 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. No fire baptism there.

But in Matthew, 7:21, Jesus says, "Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord did we not prophecy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly , 'I never knew you. Away from me you evildoers!'  I think it's very important to use Jesus's words when trying to understand the New testament. None of the words can be contradictory. I think what Jesus means is that we have to call on the name of the Lord from our hearts which is where all sin lies. Once our heart is changed then our sins can be transformed. But many people have other motives for calling on his name. God knows our hearts and who is sincer and who is not.

Ok, let me try this again. Act 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. What are you trying to arguing?

Tibby, I wasn't disputing your point, just elaborating on it. I know there are a lot of people in the world who confess with their mouths but do not have the Holy Spirit in them. Because this is such a crucial issue, I just wanted to add that. Thanks for your clarification.

Sorry, misuderstand you there.  ;D

At this point in time tibby will defend the pagan RCC to his death bed.  One can only pray he see's the light.  I've seen you point out lots of scripture incorrectly but it's useless to go over it again as you don't want to listen.

The same could be said about your beliefs, Jason. ;) I researched and found the Catholic Church to be the true church. I found all that I was told of Catholics was a lie, just like everything you have been told. I have seen the light. You have been in ONE church, one type of church, and you have seen one side, Jason. And you have not even been in the Church very long ,as you have stated. Not only was I raised in church, I have been to several churches, ranging from Denominational Protestant to Charismatic to Catholic. While I do not profess to be “enlightened” I think it is only logical to assume I’d know a little more about “the light” then you.

Anyways, it is nice to see you finally piped in, I was getting worried  ;D

The only TRUE church, Tibby, is Jesus Christ. One can worship Him anywhere. Your belief that the catholic church is the one true church shows me that you worship things in the world rather than Jesus. Churches are simply buildings where people can go and worship Christ together. They are not infallible. Your defensiveness of the catholic church indicates that your priorities are skewed.

Sorry but I find it a little odd that someone who is apparently obsessive enough to disrupt their daily life by taking the time necessary to make over 200 posts in one week can speak to someone about skewed priorities.

You don't need another Pope you need another faith- IN CHRIST ALONE!

Roman Catholism is the most heretical enemy of the truth in THIS WORLD today.  They certainly DO WORSHIP MARY AND CONSIDER HER A MEDIATOR FOR US!  They also teach Mary did not have other children as the Bible clearly tells us she did, and they also teach she was born sinless, which is a lie.  She was also in the upper room at Pentecost among the 120 praying souls.  Don't think she was mediating there.

Roman Catholism, supported the holocaust [sp?], and anti-semitism. Still does today.

The POPE is a false prophet, and nothing he says should be considered truth for living as a christian. AVOID HIM!

I KNOW, I WAS CATHOLIC BEFORE FAITH IN CHRIST ALONE JUSTIFIED Me AND TOOK MY SINS AWAY!  

Catholism, is a FEAR GENERATING RELIGION, if you read their own documents and encyclopedia, states that you MUST have enough works to help you when you die, so that you can get out of PERGATORY! A FIRERY PLACE YOU STAY FOR SOME UNKNOWN PERIOD OF TIME UNTIL THERE ARE ENOUGH PRAYERS AND INDULGENCES (indulgences are moneys given to priests for masses to pray your loved one out) SUFFICIENT TO GET YOU OUT OF THERE AND ON YOUR WAY TO HEAVEN.

THEY BELIEVE, IF YOU DON'T BELONG TO THE "MOTHER CHURCH" YOU WILL NEVER GET OUT OF PURGATORY.
They teach salvation comes from joining their church only and by works.
BUT THE BIBLE TEACHES FAITH IN JESUS, WITH REPENTANCE  WILL JUSTIFY A SINNER.
Jesus said,  " He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Mk 16:16 and Paul  wrote "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

This is the basis for Martin Luthers thesis, "the just shall live by faith"

They also have a false doctrine called TRANSUBSTANTIATION, which means EVERY TIME YOU TAKE COMMUNION, CHRIST DIES AND THE HOST TURNS INTO THE ACTUAL REAL BODY OF CHRIST AND THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.

AMEN, Sunodino!!

Tibby, I consider wtinessing and spreading God's word my top priority in life. What are yours? Sitting in church and hoping that saves you? Or maybe, you spend the week doing things for yourself. What we do what we value. I'll pray for you.

Tibby,
If you want to be saved, I urge you to look UP to God, not the pope or any church for answers. It is only He who can give you what you need. Then you will form a personal relationship with Him.

sunodino,

Let's establish from the outset:


Now the following:


Either you truly weren't Catholic or had a confused understanding of it. This simply isn't true.


Care to validate that claim?


Catholics don't claim the pope to be a prophet(???). Your statement is full of vim and vigor, which makes for fine theatrics, but lacking a tad in substance.


????
Not based on the experience of myself or the countless other Catholics I know. Frankly we all feel and experience our faith generating a great deal more faith and love than fear.


BUZZ!!!!
wrong again

Now that's one unsubstantated historical claim and three false claims about doctrine. If you're going to post, at least get Catholic beliefs correct (or ask) before leaping in.

Ciao for now!

Sorry, Corpus, but you are in error. The pope did indeed support the Nazi regime during WWII.

The beliefs of the Catholic church are also indeed based on what the pope declares is sin, even if it disagrees with God's notion on sin.

If the catholics don't worship Mary, then why do people have to say several "Hail Mary's" after they confess their sins? She can't do anything about them.

Most catholics i know believe we are saved by works and will go to hell if they commit sins. They all said they got that from the catholic teaching.

Let's try this again. Rather than making claims that SOUND conclusive, please explain your position of belief and substantiate it. Use a historical record, a book you read, something! But let's cut with the...'it's simply true' comments when dealing with matters of historical record or doctrine.


Ditto to my last reply.


It's petitioning for intercessory prayer. We've all done it at one point or another. It's just usually from family and friends.


Most Catholics I know believe they are saved by faith and works. They understand that one without the other makes the one dead. Now I'll go out on a limb and guess I know more Catholics than yourself, making my assessment of how Catholics in general understand their faith probably more accurate. Would you agree?

First of all, I am watching a documentary on the History channel RIGHT NOW about the pope's alignment with Hitler during the Nazi regime. It is talking about how people lost faith in Christianity because of it.

The pope (depending on which human being the pope is) has changed his mind on divorce over the past 50 years. The pope has also gone back and forth on the abortion issue.

I have also been to catholic churches several times in my life. I have not heard one sermon on having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I get the feeling from the sermons I have heard and the people i've talked to, that the catholic church believes that one must muster up faith rather than receive the Holy Spirit. I have also heard at the catholic church that baptism saves. There are just too many rituals in the catholic church that lead me to believe they are focusing on rituals more than the Holy Spirit.

As for faith and works, faith comes as a result of the Holy Spirit. If one has the Holy Spirit, then he will produce works because the Holy Spirit rules him. It isn't a decision, it's a response. Works don't come first. The holy Spirit does.

Great! Now tell me who's work they're referencing. What Vatican or Nazi documents are they pulling. Not trying to be a dink here, but it's kind of hard to reply to general accusations without knowing who's saying what, and what documents, speeches, references they're going to.


Again, to avoid misunderstanding, according to whom, what, when or where? I could just as easily say...Zwingli was gay. But I suspect you wouldn't let me simply get away with the comment without substantiating it.


Would that really affect your opinion about Catholicism...hearing a sermon about a personal relationship with Jesus? It seems a rather fine point for a church of 1 billion+. Trust me, it's been done and continues to be done, though probably not with the words you've chosen.


So 'responding' involves no 'decision' whatsoever?


I never suggested otherwise.

And they say spam can't start good threads!   ;D

Now, Heidi, where did I ever say the Catholic Church was the one true church? Let me give you a little of my history with Jason, so maybe you will understand, and not make such post. Jason is fairly new to the Christian faith, he has lived lost life, and recently found Christ. He has been in this one Church all his Christian Life. This Church told him that Catholics are all Pagans, condemned to Hell. I was not defending the Catholic church, I was defending myself and my experiences. Are you always this quick to assume the worst.



Why are you telling me? KNOX was the one who posted the post questioning you priorities (thanks, by the way, knox).



Ya think? I though  we settled this! The Pope/Patriarch doesn’t save anyone, You know this, I know this, Corpus knows this, the Pope knows this. We know, Heidi, we know. You don’t think we know, but we know.


Corpus- Good job with sunodino and Heidi. Wish I would have gotten to the last few posts first. You said it well, my friend.

5020- When I got home and saw we had just about filled up a whole page from this morning, I though the same thing, lol. Sad how people will take even the smallest opportunity to attack their Brothers and sisters in Christ, isn't it.
 

Tibby, you said the you researched and found that the catholic church was the true church (whatever that means.) Since I don't know you well, I didn't know what you meant by that. I elaborated on it. What do you mean by the catholic church is the tru church?

The catholic church before the Reformation sold penitences and forgiveness. Their doctrine has changed little since then. They have still rejected Luther's doctrine that we are saved by faith alone. The idea that we have to come to priests for confession and that human beings are worshipped as saints makes it hard for people to understand the message of a personal relationship with Christ. I simply have known more Catholics who have admitted that their doctrine kept them from pursuing a personal relationship with Christ than any other denomination's doctrine. There's a reason for this and I'm wondering what it is.

As for the pope allying himself with the Nazi's, if you want to research this, Corpus, then I'm sure you can contact the History channel. I doubt the Catholic church will be a reliable source for the truth about the situation. But you can try them too.

Tibby, I apologize for misreading the name on the post about my time on this website.  As far as being attacked, I feel your whole post was an attack. Especially the part about the good job other people did with me and Sunodino.

Your lack of knowlege about the Vatican's involvement in the holocaust is not our problem.  Instead of blatantly denying the truth, do a little bit of research.  I guess ignorance is bliss.



It's pretty easy Corpus.  If you said that, I would do research and prove that to be untrue.  Unfortunately, you're blissfully wallowing in your ignorance as if that makes it untrue.


Before Vatican II, the catholic "church" claimed that it was necessary to be subject to the pope for salvation.  My question is:  Was the catholic "church" a heathen church back then, and due to the recantation, is now the "true church"?

Hogwash. Nothing but a lie.


So what? What makes Luther so special that he can formulate  'doctrine'.

 
If you believe that Catholics worship Saints you are sorely mistaken. This is just common garden-variety Catholic-bashing.

 

Hmmm, let's see. Could it be that Roman Catholicism is the world's largest Christian denomination? There are One billion, 50 million Catholics. Any Catholic who believes thay can't have a personal relationship with Christ as a Catholic just isn't paying attention.

Knox, you have no info to back up your assertion that the catholic doctrine hasn't changed much.

Since you don't understand the Holy Spirit, you haven't a clue what Luther is talking about, in which case, your no authority on what saves a person.

As far as billions of people being catholic, Christ said that few will enter the kingdom. Many will say they preached in His name and cast out demons in His name but the owner of the house will say He never knew them. If the majority of people believed in Christ, then Christ would have told a lie. But so far, your argument bears out even more that He's telling the truth.

Get serious. Back up your assertion that it HASN'T!


That's a pretty big leap in judgement on your part, isn't it?Besides, I'll wager I know quite a bit more about Luther and the reformation than you do!


Once again, you have spectacularly missed the point.
You stated that you have known more Catholics who have admitted that their doctrine kept them from pursuing a personal relationship with Christ than any other denomination. Then you wondered what the reason might be. I suggest that it may be because there are many many many more Catholics!

**********
Hi, John here:
It is kind of hard for one to teach 'ONLY BELIEVE' as requirements for salvation & then 'knock' out all others that are 'believing'?? Catholics included, huh? Sounds brain d-e-a-d to the Word of God! See Eze. 9.

I agree with you [on that] part! It is the 'height' of hipocrisy, huh? Then too, we see some judging the motives of the heart to-boot! And these are saved Christian's???

OK: No, BOTH ARE IN THE SAME SPIRITUAL BED TOGETHER of Rev. 17:5 with caps of '...AND ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH'. And yes, we are talking of the denominations alone, for we know NO individuals knowledge & motives! God does, see Rev. 18:4!

---John

Knox, I've backed up my assertion in many posts. I have not heard any info from you that the doctrine has changed.

You're the one who asked who Luther was to be telling someone about faith. If you knew, then why did you ask the question? I doubt that you know more about Luther than I do, but this isn't a competition, or is that what you think it is?

And you missed my point. Proportionally, fewer catholics are saved than the evangelical churches in which having a personal relatioship with Christ is a requirement of being a member.

I have seen much less evidence given for the beliefs of the Atheists than the Christians have given as proof of God's existence. The Atheists still answer questions with questions. How much criteria do atheists need as proof of God's existence? It has to be spelled out to them, much like spoon-feeding a child. Even children understand more than they do.

My father and I begin to read the writings of the Early Church fathers. I figure, hey, they compiled, they must have some good things to say. And most of that they said is both inline with Catholic Doctrine and the Bible. In our search, we stumbled upon what is called the Convergence movement. We have always held a special place on our hearts for the Catholics, because that is where we came from, but left, thanks to protestant lies (which I've been battling for sometime even before I rejoined the Catholic Church). So, unlike the other protestants who have been trained from birth to believe the Catholics are evil, we didn’t hold anything against them. We tough of them as little off, of course, but we still believed they had good in them, no more of less then any other Denomination. Then after reading the Church Fathers, it is like a light came on, and we realized for the first time that Catholicism is the church we have been searching for. Well, that is an EXTREMELY condensed version of my journey to Catholicism. ;D



Ah, what you call an attack, I call a defense.

Why are you people asking us for evidence? We know what we believe, we are not trying to make you leave Protestantism. You are the ones on the offensive. You are the ones who need to back your claims up. We have nothing to prove.

When will you people stop fighting this war? The Reformation is over. Just let it GO. Catholics have.

And what you call an attack, we call a defense. I defend Christ, not any church in particular. I think all churches are as corrupt as the human beings in them. However, I have heard so many times that catholicism is a religion instead of a denomination. I've heard that about the Lutherans too. I haven't heard any other denomination referred to as a religion except those 2. When I ask people what religion they believe in, most of the catholics i've asked respond, "I'm a Catholic" instead of "I'm a Christian." That loyalty to the church can sometimes replace loyalty to Christ.

Tibby, if you're born again, I'm glad to meet a born again Christian who's still in the Catholic church. When I use the term "born again" to a catholic, I've always gotten a funny look. In fact, I can honestly say there hasn't been one Catholic I've  said that to who hasn't given me that look. If you're born again, then you would be the first Catholic i've met who is and still attends the catholic church.  On the other hand, it is a pre-requisite of the E-Free churches to be born again. That is not a pre-requisite of other protestant or Catholic churches. Therefore, you're going to find more born again Christians in the E-Free churches. That's not to say that there aren't scriptural errors in the E-Free church either. It just depends on what the most important aspects of Christianity are. I believe salvation is first and foremost.

No, you haven't. The RCC hasn't been involved in the selling of indulgences for 4 or 500 years! Can you show that that is not true?


Do you have any idea what a rhetorical question is?


Er, this is a new point. You haven't made this baseless unprovable claim before.



Er, why do you keep bringing up atheism?

Again, Knox, you answer questions with questions instead of giving intelligent answers. One must assume that you don't have any.

HAHA I guess because they renamed a few things it's all better now.  Just make sure you toss your money in the bucket or don't come to church.  Also toss some money in the bucket and light a candle and ask Mary to help out and it's all good.   ::)


You're quite the story teller aren't you tibby?  It's a good thing I decided to check this thread else your false claims would be thought true.  I NEVER told you my church taught me that nor is it my belief.  The RCC is pagan and the truth is far from them.  I give no credance to the "supposed" early church fathers, them all being catholic (go figure it lines up with your doctrine).  It does not however line up with the bible, the ONLY authority I look to.  

When have I ever said all catholics are damned to hell?  Do you enjoy making up lies?  I give no real credance to Luther either as he was no one worth listening to, as he had no problems killing baptists for "rebaptising (ana-baptists)" his followers.

There is one mediator and that is Christ no "dead saint" can do anything for you.  Living ones can pray for you but that is much different than those who are sleeping.  If they are sleeping they can't be doing much else now can they?

Anyhow carry one with the same old garbage.  I have yet to meet a catholic who believes they don't have to work their way to heaven or better yet those that don't even believe in hell.  They are much fewer, but they have been piking up during my visitation.

Corpus would you like some pictures of  catholic clergy with Hitler and the gang?  Of course knox here hasn't even heard of the inquisition apparently.

(http://www.nobeliefs.com/images/priests-salute.jpg)

(http://www.nobeliefs.com/images/Bishops-salute-Hitler.jpg)

(http://www.nobeliefs.com/images/hitler_cardinal4.jpg)

(http://www.nobeliefs.com/images/Hitler-with-Muller.jpg)

etc etc....

So who do you think compiled the bible?   ???

I would have though answering questions with questions has a very good biblical precedent.

5020,


My lack of knowledge is not your problem??? How about instead of blatantly assuming the truth, we demonstrate some evidence. Is it typical to expect the accused to prove their innocence?


Needing to prove casual and unsubstantiated accusations wrong hardly qaulifies as a useful means of my time. I'm sorry if you feel I'm "blissfully wallowing in my ignorance," but I am after all waiting to be educated. In other words, I'm waiting for people to do more than simply cast aspersions about others. Let's try a bit more civility in our comments shall we? The anonymity you enjoy on a forum like this enables you to be quite frankly rude. It's hardly Christian.

We don't need to research, Corpus, because we're satisfied with the information we have. If you're not, then it is up to you to do reseach. If you want it proven to you, then find the evidence. If you don't want to find out what's true, then don't do the research.

Oh please, about those pictures. Hitler WAS the leader of Germany, after all. I'm sure similar photos can be found with clergy members of any Christian denomination present in Germany. What is the implication supposed to be? That the Christian clergy were aware of, or even endorsed, Hitler's policy of genocide?

PS Those pictures came from a site that spends considerable bandwidth mocking the Bible.

And so, here we go...

On April 28, 1935, four years before the War even started, Eugenio Pacelli gave a speech that aroused the attention of the world press. Speaking to an audience of 250,000 pilgrims in Lourdes, France, the future Pius XII stated that the Nazis "are in reality only miserable plagiarists who dress up old errors with new tinsel. It does not make any difference whether they flock to the banners of social revolution, whether they are guided by a false concept of the world and of life, or whether they are possessed by the superstition of a race and blood cult."[iii] It was talks like this, in addition to private remarks and numerous notes of protest that Pacelli sent to Berlin in his capacity as Vatican Secretary of State, that earned him a reputation as an enemy of the Nazi party.

The Germans were likewise displeased with the reigning pontiff, Pius XI, who showed himself to be a unrelenting opponent of the new German "ideals"—even writing an entire encyclical, Mit Brennender Sorge (1937), to condemn them. When Pius XI died in 1939, the Nazis abhorred the prospect that Pacelli might be elected his successor.

Dr. Joseph Lichten, a Polish Jew who served as a diplomat and later an official of the Jewish Anti-Defamation League of B’nai B’rith, writes: "Pacelli had obviously established his position clearly, for the Fascist governments of both Italy and Germany spoke out vigorously against the possibility of his election to succeed Pius XI in March of 1939, though the cardinal secretary of state had served as papal nuncio in Germany from 1917 to 1929. . . . The day after his election, the Berlin Morgenpost said: ‘The election of cardinal Pacelli is not accepted with favor in Germany because he was always opposed to Nazism and practically determined the policies of the Vatican under his predecessor.’ "[iv]

Former Israeli diplomat and now Orthodox Jewish Rabbi Pinchas Lapide states that Pius XI "had good reason to make Pacelli the architect of his anti-Nazi policy. Of the forty-four speeches which the Nuncio Pacelli had made on German soil between 1917 and 1929, at least forty contained attacks on Nazism or condemnations of Hitler’s doctrines. . . . Pacelli, who never met the Führer, called it ‘neo-Paganism.’ "[v]

A few weeks after Pacelli was elected pope, the German Reich’s Chief Security Service issued a then-secret report on the new Pope. Rabbi Lapide provides an excerpt:

"Pacelli has already made himself prominent by his attacks on National Socialism during his tenure as Cardinal Secretary of State, a fact which earned him the hearty approval of the Democratic States during the papal elections. . . . How much Pacelli is celebrated as an ally of the Democracies is especially emphasized in the French Press."[vi]

Unfortunately, joy in the election of a strong pope who would continue Pius XI’s defiance of the Nazis was darkened by the ominous political developments in Europe. War finally came on September 1, 1939, when German troops overran Poland. Two days later Britain and France declared war on Germany.

Early in 1940, Hitler made an attempt to prevent the new Pope from maintaining the anti-Nazi stance he had taken before his election. He sent his underling, Joachim von Ribbentrop, to try to dissuade Pius XII from following his predecessor’s policies. "Von Ribbentrop, granted a formal audience on March 11, 1940, went into a lengthy harangue on the invincibility of the Third Reich, the inevitability of a Nazi victory, and the futility of papal alignment with the enemies of the Führer. Pius XII heard von Ribbentrop out politely and impassively. Then he opened an enormous ledger on his desk and, in his perfect German, began to recite a catalogue of the persecutions inflicted by the Third Reich in Poland, listing the date, place, and precise details of each crime. The audience was terminated; the Pope’s position was clearly unshakable."[vii]

The Pope secretly worked to save as many Jewish lives as possible from the Nazis, whose extermination campaign began its most intense phase only after the War had started. It is here that the anti-Catholics try to make their hay: Pius XII is charged either with cowardly silence or with outright support of the Nazi extermination of millions of Jews.

Much of the impetus to smear the Vatican regarding World War II came, appropriately enough, from a work of fiction—a stage play called The Deputy, written after the War by a little-known German Protestant playwright named Rolf Hochhuth.

The play appeared in 1963, and it painted a portrait of a pope too timid to speak out publicly against the Nazis. Ironically, even Hochhuth admitted that Pius XII was materially very active in support of the Jews. Historian Robert Graham explains: "Playwright Rolf Hochhuth criticized the Pontiff for his (alleged) silence, but even he admitted that, on the level of action, Pius XII generously aided the Jews to the best of his ability. Today, after a quarter-century of the arbitrary and one-sided presentation offered the public, the word ‘silence’ has taken on a much wider connotation. It stands also for ‘indifference,’ ‘apathy,’ ‘inaction,’ and, implicitly, for anti-Semitism."[viii]

Hochhuth’s fictional image of a silent (though active) pope has been transformed by the anti-Catholic rumor mill into the image of a silent and inactive pope—and by some even into an actively pro-Nazi monster. If there were any truth to the charge that Pius XII was silent, the silence would not have been out of moral cowardice in the face of the Nazis, but because the Pope was waging a subversive, clandestine war against them in an attempt to save Jews.

"The need to refrain from provocative public statements at such delicate moments was fully recognized in Jewish circles. It was in fact the basic rule of all those agencies in wartime Europe who keenly felt the duty to do all that was possible for the victims of Nazi atrocities and in particular for the Jews in proximate danger of deportation to ‘an unknown destination.’ "[ix] The negative consequences of speaking out strongly were only too well known.

"In one tragic instance, the Archbishop of Utrecht was warned by the Nazis not to protest the deportation of Dutch Jews. He spoke out anyway and in retaliation the Catholic Jews of Holland were sent to their death. One of them was the Carmelite philosopher, Edith Stein."

While the armchair quarterbacks of anti-Catholic circles may have wished the Pope to issue, in Axis territory and during wartime, ringing, propagandistic statements against the Nazis, the Pope realized that such was not an option if he were actually to save Jewish lives rather than simply mug for the cameras.

The desire to keep a low profile was expressed by the people Pius XII helped. A Jewish couple from Berlin who had been held in concentration camps but escaped to Spain with the help of Pius XII, stated: "None of us wanted the Pope to take an open stand. We were all fugitives, and fugitives do not wish to be pointed at. The Gestapo would have become more excited and would have intensified its inquisitions. If the Pope had protested, Rome would have become the center of attention. It was better that the Pope said nothing. We all shared this opinion at the time, and this is still our conviction today."[xi]

While the U.S., Great Britain, and other countries often refused to allow Jewish refugees to immigrate during the war, the Vatican was issuing tens of thousands of false documents to allow Jews to pass secretly as Christians so they could escape the Nazis. What is more, the financial aid Pius XII helped provide the Jews was very real. Lichten, Lapide, and other Jewish chroniclers record those funds as being in the millions of dollars—dollars even more valuable then than they are now.

In late 1943, Mussolini, who had been at odds with the papacy all through his tenure, was removed from power by the Italians, but Hitler, fearing Italy would negotiate a separate peace with the Allies, invaded, took control, and set up Mussolini again as a puppet ruler. It was in this hour, when the Jews of Rome themselves were threatened—those whom the Pope had the most direct ability to help—that Pius XII really showed his mettle.

Joseph Lichten records that on September 27, 1943, one of the Nazi commanders demanded of the Jewish community in Rome payment of one hundred pounds of gold within thirty-six hours or three hundred Jews would be taken prisoner. When the Jewish Community Council was only able to gather only seventy pounds of gold, they turned to the Vatican.

"In his memoirs, the then Chief Rabbi Zolli of Rome writes that he was sent to the Vatican, where arrangements had already been made to receive him as an ‘engineer’ called to survey a construction problem so that the Gestapo on watch at the Vatican would not bar his entry. He was met by the Vatican treasurer and secretary of state, who told him that the Holy Father himself had given orders for the deficit to be filled with gold vessels taken from the Treasury."[xii]

Pius XII also took a public stance concerning the Jews of Italy: "The Pope spoke out strongly in their defense with the first mass arrests of Jews in 1943, and L’Osservatore Romano carried an article protesting the internment of Jews and the confiscation of their property. The Fascist press came to call the Vatican paper ‘a mouthpiece of the Jews.’ "[xiii]

Prior to the Nazi invasion, the Pope had been working hard to get Jews out of Italy by emigration; he now was forced to turn his attention to finding them hiding places. "The Pope sent out the order that religious buildings were to give refuge to Jews, even at the price of great personal sacrifice on the part of their occupants; he released monasteries and convents from the cloister rule forbidding entry into these religious houses to all but a few specified outsiders, so that they could be used as hiding places. Thousands of Jews—the figures run from 4,000 to 7,000—were hidden, fed, clothed, and bedded in the 180 known places of refuge in Vatican City, churches and basilicas, Church administrative buildings, and parish houses. Unknown numbers of Jews were sheltered in Castel Gandolfo, the site of the Pope’s summer residence, private homes, hospitals, and nursing institutions; and the Pope took personal responsibility for the care of the children of Jews deported from Italy."[xiv]

Rabbi Lapide records that "in Rome we saw a list of 155 convents and monasteries—Italian, French, Spanish, English, American, and also German—mostly extraterritorial property of the Vatican . . . which sheltered throughout the German occupation some 5,000 Jews in Rome. No less than 3,000 Jews found refuge at one time at the Pope’s summer residence at Castel Gandolfo; sixty lived for nine months at the Jesuit Gregorian University, and half a dozen slept in the cellar of the Pontifical Bible Institute."[xv]

Notice in particular that the Pope was not merely allowing Jews to be hidden in different church buildings around Rome. He was hiding them in the Vatican itself and in his own summer home, Castel Gandolfo. His success in protecting Italian Jews against the Nazis was remarkable. Lichten records that after the War was over it was determined that only 8,000 Jews were taken from Italy by the Nazis[xvi] —far less than in other European countries. In June,1944, Pius XII sent a telegram to Admiral Miklos Horthy, the ruler of Hungary, and was able to halt the planned deportation of 800,000 Jews from that country.

The Pope’s efforts did not go unrecognized by Jewish authorities, even during the War. The Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, Isaac Herzog, sent the Pope a personal message of thanks on February 28, 1944, in which he said: "The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion which form the very foundations of true civilization, are doing for us unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of divine Providence in this world."[xvii]

If we see pictures of Christian torture then we look at it with sobering seriousness and seek to learn from it. You, however cannot bear the remorse and sadness that those pictures bring on in you because you don't see yourself as capable of hurting anyone. So you judge Hitler and elevate yourself. Hitler is an example of what we are all capable of doing to each other without God, except you, of course, who is more righeous than your fellow man. It's another example of you playing God.

Other Jewish leaders chimed in also. Rabbi Safran of Bucharest, Romania, sent a note of thanks to the papal nuncio on April 7, 1944: "It is not easy for us to find the right words to express the warmth and consolation we experienced because of the concern of the supreme pontiff, who offered a large sum to relieve the sufferings of deported Jews. . . . The Jews of Romania will never forget these facts of historic importance."[xviii]

The Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli, also made a statement of thanks: "What the Vatican did will be indelibly and eternally engraved in our hearts. . . . Priests and even high prelates did things that will forever be an honor to Catholicism."[xix]

After the war, Zolli became a Catholic and, to honor the Pope for what he had done for the Jews and the role he had played in Zolli’s conversion, took the name "Eugenio"—the Pope’s given name—as his own baptismal name. Zolli stressed that his conversion was for theological reasons, which was certainly true, but the fact that the Pope had worked so hard on behalf of the Jews no doubt played a role in inspiring him to look at the truths of Christianity.

Lapide writes: "When Zolli accepted baptism in 1945 and adopted Pius’s Christian name of Eugene, most Roman Jews were convinced that his conversion was an act of gratitude for wartime succor to Jewish refugees and, repeated denials not withstanding, many are still of his opinion. Thus, Rabbi Barry Dov Schwartz wrote in the summer issue, 1964, of Conservative Judaism: ‘Many Jews were persuaded to convert after the war, as a sign of gratitude, to that institution which had saved their lives.’ "[xx]

In Three Popes and the Jews Lapide estimated the total number of Jews that had been spared as a result of Pius XII’s throwing the Church’s weight into the clandestine struggle to save them. After totaling the numbers of Jews saved in different areas and deducting the numbers saved by other causes, such as the praiseworthy efforts of some European Protestants, "The final number of Jewish lives in whose rescue the Catholic Church had been the instrument is thus at least 700,000 souls, but in all probability it is much closer to . . . 860,000."[xxi] This is a total larger than all other Jewish relief organizations in Europe, combined, were able to save. Lapide calculated that Pius XII and the Church he headed constituted the most successful Jewish aid organization in all of Europe during the war, dwarfing the Red Cross and all other aid societies.

This fact continued to be recognized when Pius XII died in 1958. Lapide’s book records the eulogies of a number of Jewish leaders concerning the Pope, and far from agreeing with Jack Chick that he deserved death because of his "war crimes," Jewish leaders praised the man highly:[xxii]

"We share the grief of the world over the death of His Holiness Pius XII. . . . During the ten years of Nazi terror, when our people passed through the horrors of martyrdom, the Pope raised his voice to condemn the persecutors and to commiserate with their victims" (Golda Meir, Israeli representative to the U.N. and future prime minister of Israel).

"With special gratitude we remember all he has done for the persecuted Jews during one of the darkest periods in their entire history” (Nahum Goldmann, president of the World Jewish Congress).

"More than anyone else, we have had the opportunity to appreciate the great kindness, filled with compassion and magnanimity, that the Pope displayed during the terrible years of persecution and terror" (Elio Toaff, Chief Rabbi of Rome, following Rabbi Zolli’s conversion).

Finally, let us conclude with a quotation from Lapide’s record that was not given at the death of Pius XII, but was given after the War by the most well-known Jewish figure of this century, Albert Einstein: "Only the Catholic Church protested against the Hitlerian onslaught on liberty. Up till then I had not been interested in the Church, but today I feel a great admiration for the Church, which alone has had the courage to struggle for spiritual truth and moral liberty."[xxiii]

Oh...and Heidi,


Zwingli, Calvin and Luther were actually closet homosexuals. Everybody knows it.

I'll wait for you to prove it wrong though.

That may or may not be true, Corpus. It's difficult do decide which human beings are right about anything. But I'll assume it's true. What i object to, though, are things like the reason catholics call the pope the Holy Father. I only reserve that for God. None of us humans are any better or any worse than anyone else in the world. We all fall short of the glory of God. One sin is no better than another. Why then, do the Catholics put the pope on a pedestal? Albert Schweitzer and Albert Einstein did a lot of good deeds for huamnity. But since they were not Christians, they were doing it for their purposes rather than God's. So good works alone, do not mean someone is saved. Good works without salvation is meaningless. The way the clergy elevates itself in the catholic church is very suspect to me. Jesus was a carpenter's son who stated that even He wasn't good. I don't see that kind of teacher in the Catholic church, and i don't see that kind of response from the congregation to its clergy. True respect has to come from the heart. It can't be manufactured or insisted upon.  To adorn the pope in magnificent attire is to worship him. Jesus never called attention to Himself other than to the words He wanted us to hear. Jesus appears more humble to me than the pope. "He who humbles himslef will be exhalted. He who exhalts himself will be humbled."

It matters little where the pictures came from.  I have seen these types of pictures all over the place.  I dare say that if the RCC was against Hitler what were they doing soluting shaking hands etc.

You also don't seem to think the spanish inquisition happened.  Funny they toss the spanish part in there as it was ordained by the vatican.  You two can deny the RCC's part in the holocost all you want.  They already have an official statment claiming appology for causing anti-semitism before in 1998.

Go google for it.

OH NO! It can’t be! HUMANS made a MISTAKE!? OH NO! Dear lord, help us! Humans used your name for personal gain! That is unheard of! It can’t be... does this mean that... Catholics are human, too? NNNOOOO.......  :P

Sorry, I couldn’t resist!  ;D


Well, sense I am such a story teller, go a head and fill us in. Tell us about your extensive life in the Roman Catholic Church. Tell about how everyone else in you Independent Baptist Church supports Catholics and visits mass every chance they get to stay in communion with there Catholic Brothers and sisters. We only know what you tell us, and you don’t really say much. So go a head and talk about how your Church supports Catholics.



You said Catholics are Pagans. Personally, I don’t believe Pagans are heaven-bound, do you? As for Luther, I’m with you about him. Luther is full of it. There is no doubt in my mind that some of his Thesis had wisdom. He saw problems in the Church, and he felt to fix them. Then he couldn’t fix the, the Drunken anti-Semitic had no other choice do to leave the church. But Faith alone is just to much for me to handle. I think I’ll stick with that the bible says on Faith and works.  ;)

I appreciate that. I simply needed to point out how distorted certain accounts can get. My study of history has convinced me things aren't always quite as simplistic as we make them.


I understand you're problem with this. Most do it out of respect for the office he holds as head of the church (e.g. "Mr. President" as opposed to "George"). For the record it isn't a 'required' title. What I mean is that others call him (to his face) John Paul and even Karol.


I agree with the first part of your comment. None of us are better than any other, the pope included. If we put him on a pedestal, it isn't for his lack of sin, but again for the position he holds. He (and his predecessors) have been very adamant about their own sinfulness. I could post any number of public comments or pieces of their writings as testament, but I've probably done enough cutting and pasting for a while  :)


One need not be saved to be selfless and giving.
And how do we know they weren't Christians? I mean aside from the obvious tracts of their writings, how can we truly know what was in their hearts? To suggest otherwise implies we must judge a Christian's worth by what they do, and that seems to contradict salvation through faith alone.


I simply have to disagree ten-fold. My experience with countless priests over the years has been one of absolute servitude to the people of God. Please take time to view the following website only to see the difference Catholic clergy have made in the lives of the people they serve (you need to clik on "view messages" after you get to the site).

http://www.thankyoufather.com/ (http://www.thankyoufather.com/)


Agreed.

I don't deny that that are born again priests. I'm sure there are many in the Catholic church who are saved. However, the nature of mass itself and the pomp and circumstance around the clergy really turns me off. I think these kinds of things are what leads believers astray. I'm simply trying to find out why so many Catholics I know don't know what being born again means.  

Again, wordly positions, which includes positions in the church, hold no special place for me in my heart. They are simply worldly positions. It is only God who can judge who is higher in the kingdom. Christ's position at the head of the church is still humble.

TIBBY AND DECEIVED CATHOLICS ET AL
I was brought up Catholic, and NOT taught they were evil. I thought they were THE ONLY CHURCH!  Honey, GET REAL! A LITTLE OFF?  READ A REAL BIBLE AND CHECK OUT EACH DOCTRINAL STATEMENT THEY MAKE!  THEY ARE FULL OF LIES!

TALK ABOUT LIES!  ROMAN CATHOLIC DOGMA HAS BEEN THE “CAGE OF EVERY FOUL BIRD”  AND GUILTY OF THE BLOOD OF BELIEVERS WHO PROFESSED JESUS CHRIST AS MESSIAH. MANY KILLED DURING THE INQUISITIONS REFUSED TO AGREE WITH THE INFALLIBILITY OF THE POPE, INDULGENCES AND TRANSUBSTANTIATION.  ROME HAS NEVER BACKED DOWN FROM THESE DOCTRINES.  SEE FOXES BOOK OF MARTYRS.

Mary and Mary worship[/u]
Doctrine:  Immaculate conception (born without sin)
Catholic Encyc.: Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin at the first moment of her animation, and sanctifying grace was given to her before sin could have taken effect in her soul.
Bible: Ps. 14:3b  “there is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
Rom 3:23 “ For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”

Doctrine:  Veneration of Mary (Websters: Revere, adore, reverence, WORSHIP, IDOLIZE, PUT ON A PEDESTAL
Catholic Encyc.: veneration of the Heart of Mary is, as such, analogous to our worship of the Heart of Jesus. It is, however, necessary to indicate a few differences in this analogy, the better to explain the character of Catholic devotion to the Heart of Mary.
Bible:
1 Cor 10:14   “Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.”
 Rev 22: 9 “Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.”

Doctrine: Mary is a mediator to God for us
Catholic Encyc. (regarding the marriage at Cana “…implies that on account of the intercession of Mary Jesus anticipated the time set for the manifestation of His miraculous power”
HAIL MARY FULL OF GRACE PRAY FOR US SINNERS NOW AND BEFORE THE HOUR OF OUR DEATH.  (if that ain’t mediating – what is?)
Bible: 1 Tim 2:5 “ For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;”  Heb 9:15  “And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament,…”

Salvation [/u]
Doctrine:  The Church – MUST JOIN IT TO BE SAVED (note: the church is defined as the Roman Catholic Church in the encyclopedia)
Catholic Encyc.:  MUST DO THE FOLLOWING:
1.  In the first place, he must profess the true Faith, and have received the Sacrament of Baptism
2.  It is further necessary to acknowledge the authority of the Church and of her appointed rulers
3.  The third condition lies in the canonical right to communion with the Church.
Bible:  Jesus said, " He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Mk 16:16.    Paul  wrote "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Peter said “Repent and be baptized everyone of you IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost”     Acts 2:38
In no way is ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH ALLEGIANCE A PRE-REQUISITE FOR SALVATION PER THE BIBLE.  READ IT INSTEAD OF YOUR CATECHISM.  GET THE TRUTH IN YOUR HEAD!


Pope and Nazi Regime[/u]
Info on Nazi concordat: 1933 Concordat with Hitler of Germany by then Cardinal Eugenio Pacelli, who later became Pope Pius XII played a key role in negotiating the lucrative 1933 deal. One of the benefits of the Concordat was the hundreds of millions of dollars that would flow to the Roman Catholic Church through the church tax throughout the entire war. In return, Pius XII would never excommunicate Hitler from the Catholic Church nor would he raise his voice to protest the slaughter of 6 million Jews. Leading prelates and theologians were ecstatic at the signing of the 1933 Concordat and praised the Nazi regime and compared it to that of the Church.  When in 1939 an attempt was made upon Hitler’s life, the Catholic press throughout Germany almost unanimously declared that Hitler’s narrow escape from the attempt  was the miraculous protection of God.

The Vatican museum is filled with priceless ancient paintings, sculptures, tapestries, gold and jewels once worn or treasured by despotic rulers. Most were given to popes by kings, queens, emperors, or governments in token of papal partnerships with worldly figures to which the Bible condemns as unholy and would consider unthinkable for the bride of Christ.  1929 Concordat with Mussolini of Italy, the Pope publicly supporting him “Mussolini is the man sent by Providence” and with their help he was voted into power. For having seized papal territories in 1870, Italy paid to the Holy See 750 million lire in cash and 1 billion lire in state bonds.
 HUMAN MISTAKES MAYBE?

Purgatory[/u]
Doctrine: The place of purging where the Catholic believes those who die without having made sufficient restitution for their sins, (though Christ suffered for them) and one must spend some time of suffering in order to be made clean enough to enter heaven.  
Bible:
John 15:3 3  Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
2 Cor 5:8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
1 Thes. 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Bible teaches that if your sins are remitted, then they are remitted PERIOD, you don't have to climb up Cathedral steps on your knees, kiss a statue and douse yourself with holy water to get saved and go directly to heaven.  There is NO PURGATORY!
 
OTHER FALSE DOCTRINES OF RCC
·Prayers for the dead
·Making the sign of the cross
·Veneration of angels and dead saints and use of images
·Priests begin to dress differently from the laity
·The doctrine of purgatory (Gregory I)
·The Latin language used in worship and prayer (Gregory I)
·Prayers directed to Mary, dead saints and angels
·Title of “pope” or “universal bishop” first given to Boniface III
·Kissing the pope’s foot (Pope Constantine)
·Temporal power of the popes, conferred by Pepin , King of France
·Worship of the cross images and relics
·Holy water, mixed with a pinch of salt and blessed by a priest
·College of Cardinals
·Canonization of dead saints (Pope John XV)
·Fastings on Fridays and during Lent
·Celibacy of the priesthood (Pope Gregory Vii)
·The rosary
·The inquisition
·Sale of indulgences
·Transubstantiation
·Auricular (private) confession of sins to a priest (Pope Innocent III - Lateran Council)
·Adoration of the wafer (Host) (Pose Honorius III)
·The Scapular invented by Simon Stock, an English monk
·Tradition declared to be of equal authority with the Bible by Council of Trent
·The Apocryphal books added to the Bible by the Council of Trent
·Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary (proclaimed by Pope Pius ix)
·Syllabus of Errors, proclaimed by Pope Pius ix and ratified by the Vatican Council, condemned freedom of religion, conscience, speech, press and scientific discoveries which are disapproved by the Roman Church; reasserted the pope’s temporal authority over all civil rulers.
·Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals proclaimed by the Vatican Council
·Public schools condemned by Pope Pius Xi
·Assumption of the Virgin Mary (bodily ascension into heaven shortly after her death) proclaimed by Pope Pius XII
·Mary proclaimed mother of the church by Pope Paul VI

Other practices:
monks, nuns, monasteries, convents, forty days of Lent, Holy week, Palm Sunday, Ash Wednesday, All Saints Day, fish day, meat days, incense, holy oil, holy palms, St. Christopher medals, charms, relics, novenas.  
 :'(

sunodino, you grew up in the Catholic church, uh? Did you SLEEP through Sunday school or something? Read you list of false dourine, My question is DID YOU read them before copying and pasting them? You could have combined half of them into each other, making the list MUCH, MUCH shorter. Plus it would look more credible if you didn’t repeat the same thinks with different wording.  
How is the Sign of the Cross a false doctrine?
You need to Check what the Catholic Church different Salvation as. Maybe YOU think we need to be a part of YOUR Church, but the Catholics do not feel that way. You tell us to get our heads out of the Catechism and start reading the Bible? Maybe you should consider getting your head in catechism, it might help your case if you started speaking the TRUTH!

Do you read what you post? Most of that is you said was false, the rest of it was twisted. Is it possible to not repeat the same stuff everyone else has already said? The Catechism is 687 pages long., you’d think, if the Catholic Church was so evil, you people would have at least 680 pages worth of information to rant about the Catholics on, but NNOOOO, you people keep repeating the same stuff over and over. Makes me really wonder, when, in almost 2000 years of law and doctrine, all you can come up with is “Idolatry” and a few mistakes humans made to back up your claim that the Catholic Church is ungodly. If you are going to try and convert Catholics to Protestantism, try using FACTS! Of course, you are going to say I’m brainwashed and not ever listen to a word I’m saying. Because you will do what you always do, ignore or skip around our question when we speak against what you believe. Instead of attacking what we believe, why don’t you try to tell us why what you believe is SO much better, you catch more flies with honey and all, right? It might be easier for both of us if you told us what YOU believe, instead of trying to tell us what WE believe. Did you ever stop to thing that MAYBE we know a little bit more about what we believe than you? Is that perhaps a possibility?

Excellent, Sunodino! It's these aspects that have not changed much since the Reformation. The only 2 sacriments Christ  talks about are baptism and communion. The rest are man made. For what purpose? All it does is OBSCURE the purpose of salvation. It places so much pomp and circumstance on Christianity and so many rituals, no wonder people get confused about what saves them! It's a mess! Well  done.

If you believe what you posted, then the said applies to you, as well. MOST of those things have changed since the Reformation.

Actually, what's scary is that the Catholic church has its own set of laws that are almost as numerous as the Old Testament. Christians are dead to the law. Christ fulfilled the law. We only use it now to convict us of sin. When governments want to find out how God feels about certain practices like homosexuality, they consult the Vatican instead of the bible. If the pope says something is a sin, then it is. If the pope says something is not a sin, then it isn't.  It's pretty scary that one man has so much religious power. That's hero worshipping if i ever heard it.

It is called Respect. When world leaders, or local leaders, for that matter, call you up because of your great spirituality, then you can talk.

You are confusing my term of RCC to mean catholics.  Though from my findings and conversations with most catholics they are not saved.  The RCC is a group and I am usually not reffering to individual members as much as the clergy and and the institution itself.  The teachings of the RCC are pagan because they are against scripture.  Research on mass and you will find it unbiblical.  You said "Jason is a new Christian and has been taught by his church yadda yadda yadda".  I did my own research plus my Grandfather is catholic, and my mother was raised catholic.  I have had plenty of time around the catholic people's and all.  95% of all catholics I witness too are clearly unsaved and have some of the worst doctrine ever,  Bring out a bible and they either get uncomfortable, claim the church teahces different, or end up becoming saved upon seeing the truth of scripture.

It's also interesting to note the only two relgions I've come across where one can be a "non-practicing ______" are catholics and Jews.   Does anyone care to explain how one can be a non practicing religionist?  I thought you had to be follwing Christ or not.  Catholics are the only denomination I know of that never claim to be christian but catholic.

Even if there are less rules than before the reformation, there are still many more rules than what Christ asks of us. All He asks is that we are born again of the Spirit, that we love God and each other, and that we are baptized and take commuion. The focus of  the catholic church isn't on Christ. It's on the POPE and his rules and regulations.

Jason- Thank you for clarifying. So, you admit a Catholic CAN be a Christian. And, btw, there doctrine is Scriptural. What turns some people off is when Priests don’t  know how to answer questions. All the twisted facts tend to confuse people, so when they ask there Priest, he is baffled by it as well, the people see the Protestant who lied to them to be “smarter” because he “knew” more Catholic “Doctrine” then the Priest. Give Apologetics a chance. Check out some of the guys who turn to the Catholic Church from various other groups of Christianity. How much “research” did you do? Is this the same research that gave you that “Dragon hat” theory? If that is the case, maybe you need to dig a little deeper. You know what I’m talking about. ;D

As for non practicing religionist, all denominations have them. But most Protestants prefer to call them "Backside Christians.”

Heidi- *sigh* Back to this, again? 687 pages, Heidi, find some new ammo. ;)

I never said anything about a dragon hat.  I told you that before apparently it's as useful as pointing out the difference between there and their.  :-X

I said it was in the shape of the FISH god DAGON.  You know the one the Philistines worshipped?  The whole catholic garb thing is wrong.  Sonce when did the NT ordain there to be priests?  Also when did the catholic clergy become the levite preists (that is where they come up with their excuse for their pomp and circumstance).  

Tibby, I don't know who you're addressing you in your post, but i have said in many posts that I believe there are born again Christians in many churches. I have simply met so many catholics who don't understand what born again means.

And i'm not looking for ammo, Tibby. I thought this was a search for the truth on both sides. You've got a lot of spite in your posts. Why are you so defensive? I believe the Lutheran church is not focused on being born again either. The ELCA has all but admitted they worship Luther. This was all porphesied by Christ. He said that many will preach in His name, cast out demons in His name...but when the owner of the house closes the door, He will say He never knew you. Jesus was talking about professed believers, here, not unbelivers.

 ;D = goofy, just so you know. Are ya sure? I thought you posted Dragon god. Oh well. It has been a while.

So, you are saying there is to be no ordaintion? And what is wrong with a Robe?

I can't stand the protestant "graduation gown" either.  There is no need to dress differently because you are a deacon, Pastor, or what not.  We are all considered priests of God now.  There is no reason to dress differently to distinguish ones self.  Actually I have seen pictures of the pope getting his feet washed while he sits in his lovely throne( with a lovely upsidedown cross as well :-\ ).  Last I checked it was supposed to be the other was around and no throne.

The fact I have seen commercials asking people to become preists shows the spiritual bankruptcy of the RCC.  It is not a "Job" to be in full time service of the LORD.  It's not like going to scholl to be a doctor.  It is ONLY to be if one is called of God and you will know if you are called.  There is also now grounds for all the Hail mary's (repitiou prayer anyone?) or preists and confessionals.  If you feel the need to confess to another brother or sister it should be done in openess between the two not behind a some wall where no one can see you.  That brother or sister has no power to absolve you of anything either.

Ack!  I'm going to stop now it's really not worth it to go over this again and again and again.

It is all in good fun. As for the Pope, the man kisses sidewalk, I don't think we need to question his humilitly ;D

Man, I have to see the commericals. How do they go?

Why was the link deleted??

Petro

It is all part of a Vatican Conspiracy to take over the world! The Roman Hackers cracked into the Forum and blocked the site.      ProfessionalPerson is part of the resistance, fighting against it. RESISTANCE IF FUTILE!  We, the people of Rome, will control you al! Mahahahaha  ;D

ok, for real, it was spam. The link lead to a wed based war game. When ever someone clicked on the link, it would add one person to his Army. People participating in these games are not allowed to post things like this.

HA! I beat you by one second take that!  BTW who is al and why do you want to control him?   :P

lol, I noticed that. I still outrack you :P ;)

Al is the Resistance leader! Nope, no spelling error there! None at all *sweeps sleeping error under rug with foot*

Tibby,
You crack me up!  It is obvious you are not interested in the truth, just defending a false paganistic religion.  I had hoped you would be more concerned after reading the depth of paganistic practices incorporated by RCC, but NOOOOOOOO, you didn't.  :D

Did you sleep through your English class? I did read it, I put the list together, it is an excerpt from a paper I did years ago. I am at least glad you read them, good for you! There is much much more.. It was my own research as well as experience with a DEAD  RELIGION that encorporates PAGAN PRACTICES to get the MOST OUT OF THE PEOPLE AROUND THEM ESPECIALLLY POWER AND MONEY!

The sign of the cross isn't the issue, it is this self blessing and genuflecting thing, as well as with so called holy water.  

I DON'T HAVE  [my]CHURCH, I am part of the entire body of Christ which includes all believers in Jesus as the savior, who have repented and been baptized in Jesus' name, and have been washed by the blood of the Lamb of God who (only can) takes away the sin of the WORLD. I believe the Bible is the only source of doctrine.  The Bible interprets itself, it NEVER FAILS. It is complete.  I believe in Acts 2:38, I believe that if I fall, I have a mediator who is the propitiation (the atoning victim) for my sin, ONCE AND FOR ALL. I believe that churches today have abandoned much of what the early church established and there is a slumber among the people. But the Church of Jesus Messiah is not bound and lives.Please join that church and run from RCC.


I don't see that you really know what you have signed up for, but maybe you do!  Sorry! However, let me say, much of my reply regarding doctrine came from the CURRENT CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA. There are scores of works from current and former RCC members that are honest and forthcoming.  I have pictures of Pacelli and Montini, (later Pope Pius XII and Paul VI)sitting with the Nazi's signing the concordat.  Not a pretty picture. Even Catholic pastors were executed because they would not go along with Hitler during that time.  

NOTHING HAS CHANGED, RCC IS JUST GOING ALONG WITH THE WIND RIGHT NOW UNTIL IT CAN MAKE A BIG MOVE TO GET IT'S REFORMATION CHILDREN BACK.  Most likely you will hear the POPE BLESS ISLAMIC RADICALS! RCC will do anything to get ALL THE POWER.

May I add, this whole thread started with a question, since Pope Paul II confirms evolution, do we need a new pope?  

Answer: RCC does not need a new Pope.

 ;D
(http://www.beautifulclipart.com/clipart/smiley/smile5.gif)    

Glad I crack you up. Oh, and as a matter of fact, I did sleep through English class! Math, too. even slept through football practice a few times. Now THAT is something to be proud of ;)

As for the truth, you haven't told me the trust. You copy and paste a few little bit, and the expound on nothing. Reminds me of my "Absence of Content" paper written in 10th grade English, while we are on my Language Arts Education.  ;D All is all, I have yet to see facts. This collection of Propaganda may work for other protestants, but we are Catholics. We know this stuff, and we know when you have your facts mixed up. Yet, you still profess to know more about what we believe then we do. When you give me fact, and present them in a form that is CORRECT, then I will consider listening to this rubbish. How can these fact be true when the proof you use to back these facts up with is false?

OK Tibby, You are not moved.

Please answer directly, does the RCC have the following doctrines or not?  I think I told you I WAS CATHOLIC, I STUDIED THE DOCTRINE, I AM NOT A PROTESTANT NEWCOMER, NOR DO I IDENTIFY WITH THE PROTESTANT CHURCHES!  But I enjoyed this one alot. HA HA HAHAHA.

The Modified List (consolidated):
FALSE DOCTRINES OF RCC
·Prayers for the dead AND to the dead, including Mary
·Making the sign of the cross (genuflect) with Holy Water & salt
·Veneration of angels and dead saints and use of images
·Priests begin to dress differently from the laity
·The doctrine of purgatory (Gregory I)
·The Latin language used in worship and prayer (Gregory I)
·Title of “pope” or “universal bishop” first given to Boniface III
·Kissing the pope’s foot (Pope Constantine)
·Temporal power of the popes, conferred by Pepin , King of France
·Worship of the cross images and relics, statues, medals etc.
·Canonization of dead saints (Pope John XV)
·Celibacy of the priesthood (Pope Gregory Vii)
·The rosary
·The inquisition
·Sale of indulgences
·Transubstantiation
·Auricular (private) confession of sins to a priest (Pope Innocent III - Lateran Council)
·The Scapular invented by Simon Stock, an English monk
·Tradition declared to be of equal authority with the Bible by Council of Trent
·The Apocryphal books added to the Bible by the Council of Trent
·Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary (proclaimed by Pope Pius ix)
·Syllabus of Errors, proclaimed by Pope Pius ix and ratified by the Vatican Council, condemned freedom of religion, conscience, speech, press and scientific discoveries which are disapproved by the Roman Church; reasserted the pope’s temporal authority over all civil rulers.
·Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals proclaimed by the Vatican Council
·Public schools condemned by Pope Pius Xi
·Assumption of the Virgin Mary (bodily ascension into heaven shortly after her death) proclaimed by Pope Pius XII
·Mary proclaimed mother of the church by Pope Paul VI

Other practices:
monks, nuns, monasteries, convents, forty days of Lent, Holy week, Palm Sunday, Ash Wednesday, All Saints Day, fish day, meat days, incense, holy oil, holy palms, St. Christopher medals, charms, relics, novenas.  

The Modified List (consolidated):
FALSE DOCTRINES OF RCC- Since you used present tense, I assume you are referring to the Current Catechism, and not History, right?

·Prayers for the dead AND to the dead, including Mary- Yes

·Making the sign of the cross (genuflect) with Holy Water & salt- Yes

·Veneration of angels and dead saints and use of images- No

·Priests begin to dress differently from the laity- Yes

·The doctrine of purgatory (Gregory I)- Yes

·The Latin language used in worship and prayer (Gregory I)- No

·Title of “pope” or “universal bishop” first given to Boniface III- Yes

·Kissing the pope’s foot (Pope Constantine)-Yes

·Temporal power of the popes, conferred by Pepin , King of France-yes

·Worship of the cross images and relics, statues, medals etc.-No

·Canonization of dead saints (Pope John XV)- Well, seeing as one of the prerequisite of being Canonizationed is being need alive after you die, YES

·Celibacy of the priesthood (Pope Gregory Vii- No

·The rosary- You are going to have to be more specific.

·The inquisition- Again, be more specific.

·Sale of indulgences- no

·Transubstantiation- Yes

·Auricular (private) confession of sins to a priest- Yes

·The Scapular invented by Simon Stock, an English monk- Yes

·Tradition declared to be of equal authority with the Bible by Council of Trent- no

·The Apocryphal books added to the Bible by the Council of Trent- No

·Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary- Yes

·Syllabus of Errors, proclaimed by Pope Pius ix and ratified by the Vatican Council, condemned freedom of religion, conscience, speech, press and scientific discoveries which are disapproved by the Roman Church; reasserted the pope’s temporal authority over all civil rulers.- No

·Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals proclaimed by the Vatican Council- No

·Public schools condemned by Pope Pius Xi- No

·Assumption of the Virgin Mary (bodily ascension into heaven shortly after her death) proclaimed by Pope Pius XII- Yes

·Mary proclaimed mother of the church by Pope Paul VI-yes


With a few exception, I don’t see what is false about any of this. A few of your fact where false though.  Here are a few small examples:

Kissing the pope’s foot we not started my Pope Constantine of the 700 Century. The Tradition of kissing feet was common in biblical times.

The Apocryphal books where not added my the counsel of Trent. And even if they where, then I ask you WHY? What would be the point? Adding all those books just so they can use one vague verse about Purgatory? What reason did the counsel of Trent have for adding the 14th Chapter to Daniel? On top of that, the fact that really messes that argument up, if these where added by the Counsel of Trent, how do you explain the Eastern Orthodox bible?

I don’t know how old you are, but I doubt you where old enough hot experience the sale of indulgences. If you where Catholic at one time, you would know this cannot be a “false Doctrine” because it is not a doctrine any longer.

The Latin language used in worship and prayer is tolerate, but the Vatican II did away with the Latin Mass. Even so, what is wrong with the use of Latin in worship and prayer?

This still wasn’t “condensed” as best it could. All the Mary points could have easily been made into one.

I don't understand the sign of the cross. It seems like a superstition to me. If a person wans to honor Christ, why doesn't he just talk to Him?

Why can't you talk to him AND do the sign of the cross? it is just a sign of respect, a form of worship.

Tibby,
We can pretty much exhaust this subject.  You are turning a blind eye to the fact that all the doctrines you said YES to, are not covered in Scripture.  RCC imposed them and many paid with their lives for rejecting them.  

A few comments:
·Celibacy of the priesthood (Pope Gregory Vii- No
Priests are still required to be single, this practice is still a doctrine of RCC

·The rosary- You are going to have to be more specific.
Catholic Encyclopedia  “The Rosary is a certain form of prayer wherein we say  tens of Hail Mary’s with one Our Father between each ten, fifteen times.

·The inquisition- Again, be more specific.
Catholic Encyclopedia:  By this term is usually meant a special ecclesiastical institutional for combating or suppressing heresy.  During the Middle ages hundreds of so called heretics were tortured and killed by RCC.  Here is what they say about it:
“Europe was so endangered by heresy, and penal legislation concerning Catharism had gone so far, that the Inquisition seemed to be a political necessity. That these sects were a menace to Christian society “

·Sale of indulgences- no
 RCC still requires money be paid for a priest to say “mass” for the dead loved one.

Some of them are not. For many of them, is isn’t an issue. Oh, cars are in in the bible, so lets take all parking lots off the Churches while we are at it!



There are a number of priest who are married. Many preists choose to remain Celibate, but there are married preists



That is one way of describing it. In that case, Yes.



I that case, no.



Ok, really, that just isn’t true, plain and simple. Not in many catholic

Go spam!  Go spam!  Go!  Go!  Go spam!

What is that supposed to mean?  If you are not interested in the dialog....(whatever)

I saw this in the intro:
Name is Mr. 5020 (aka Oscar).  I turned 20 yesterday.  I've been saved for 13 years now, and feel called to associate pastoral (possibly bi-vocational) ministry.  Have been a member of TheologyOnline.com since last November and have come to really enjoy forums.  Since TheologyOnline.com is for all religions (or non-religions, as the case may be), I sought out a Christian forum.  So here I am. Hope I bless you and you bless me.

Really................. ;D

 

It never fails to amaze me when anti-Catholic bigots on the internet try to discredit the Roman Catholic Church by bringing up material from 500 years ago, like "The Inquisition".  In reality, there were many inquisitions, but these people are not historians, after all. Their concern is not for historical accuracy, they are mainly concerned with holding present-day Catholics up to ridicule. Absolutely without any compassion or any sense of decency, they never stop to consider that today's Catholics are just as shocked and horrified by these events as anyone else.

To their credit, one rarely sees a Catholic respond to this type of mindless harassment by pointing out the obvious; Protestants have skeletons in their closet too. Only their sins are a lot lot closer in time to the present day.

Who was it in the United States that bought and sold human beings, and treated them as beasts of burden? Protestant Christians. The Southern Baptist Convention was founded in 1845 for the express purpose of defending the institution of slavery. They also opposed the Civil Rights initiatives of the 1950's and 1960's.

On the internet one can find hundreds of photographs (many of them were made into postcards!) of smiling, laughing, good old-fashioned white southern Protestants gathered around the body or bodies of recently deceased black people. They were recently deceased because these people had just murdered them. Were there any Roman Catholics in the crowd? Not Likely. Any Catholic foolish enough to be in the immediate area would possibly have been strung up for an encore!

Who comprised the membership of the Ku Klux Klan? Sorry, no Catholics allowed. The Klan was responsible for untold misery inflicted on southern Blacks, and they did it all without any Catholic help, thank you.

The point is that no responsible Protestant Christian today would be involved in the murder of anybody, just as no responsible Roman Catholic would torture or kill any supposed heretic. Nobody is asking you guys to join the Roman Catholic Church. You don't care for their style of worship, so be it. They are not responsible for something that happend half a millenium ago.

If you read the posts, Knox, you'll notice that the people who criticize the catholic churches have also criticized the Protestant churches as well. So why are you defending the Catholic church yet not Christians? That's a gross contradiction.

I don't understand your comment. I was not defending the Catholic Church.

If you're not defending them, then are you criticizing them? Or are just criticizing Christians for having doctrinal differences?

What?? Heidi if you really didn't understand my post, I don't know what to say. I'll have no more discussion with you on this.

"anti-catholic bigots?
If you had read the postings you would understand that it is not about bigotry, but about the pagan practices that are contrary to the BIBLE.

Paul wrote, 2 Tim 3:5, 13
5  Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
13  But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

and to clarify
Rom 1:16  For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The RCC denies scripture in favor of pagan tradition, and yes lots of it they are proud to say is over 500 years old!  But the Bible, which they twist, IS THE POWER.


So you found a way to bring in bigotry against blacks by S. Baptist etc.  

Start a new thread.  Doesn't belong here. This was a logical discussion about RCC. Theological stuff - ya know?



The POINT  is that there is a list of paganistic practices you so smoothly refer to as "style of worship" that are contrary to BIBLE theology.  The list was printed twice in this thread, like worship of Mary, prayers TO and FOR DEAD people, idolatry of medals, relics, statues, etc.

The Point also, is this is a site for theological discussion.  If you can't discuss it here, in christians united, then where?
 ???

Uh, yeah, sunodino, I saw the list. Standard, garden variety Catholic bashing, based on misunderstandings, half-truths, misinformation, and outright lies. Nothing new that I haven't seen countless times, ad nauseum, on the internet. How many forums have you done this on, have Catholics patiently  explain their position to you, then you move on and repeat the process? It's tiresome and kinda boring. And mean-spirited, I think.

Garden variety? Can you explain to me the dogma that does not line up with Scripture?  That is all I am asking for.  And NO I have not been all over the internet about this. I did not start this thread.  Someone asked a simple question about the POPE'S CONFIRMATION OF EVOLUTION, another anti-biblical doctrine.  Not trying to be MEAN spirited.  I think you are just offended.  Sorry bout that.

First off, Knox, well written rant above. I doubt many of them will acknowledge it, but now, we can just quote you every time they bring it up. They can waste their energy posting the same lies over and over, but as for me, I’m just going to quote you


Good question. Since we are not welcome here and all. The pagans we are.


Other then most of the dogma does. You haven’t proven otherwise. We have asked you to several times, but you do not.


Ya think? Lets recap, we have been accused of:

Paganism
Heresy
Turning a blind eye
Idolism
Nazis

And this would offend someone? NO WAY! Your joshing me! You THINK he was just offended?

Heidi, sunodino, go play somewhere else. Leave the anti-Catholicism to the Pros. Petro, Saved, John and Baptist. You guys just suck all the fun out of running in circles! ;D

sunny,

The real point is that many of us on these boards have already been over and over these issues. Not that they aren't important, but watching someone relatively new step in and start ranting about the pagan, succubi-spawn, heretical Catholic church just doesn't have the 'tang' you think it does, and quite frankly isn't likely to generate the type of responses you'd like to see. Though I hesitate to speak for Tibby and Knox, the typical reaction upon reading a post like yours is an exasperated sigh with a reticence to respond given how often we've done so in the past. Not that you should know this given how recently you began posting, but to sum up..

Been there. Done that.

Now the Nazi thing, THAT was new and exciting. But let's face it, all it really needed was a bit of sound historical background and the whole controversy floundered.

Cheers.

Knox, your defense of the catholics shows me that you and catholics have more in common than Christians and catholics do. Because Christians believe in Christ. Catholics believe in catholics.

Who said that?

I quoted from the Catholic Encyc. and the Bible, that these practices still exist, but so what? It is just a discussion.


Sorry

I don't think so.  Why don't you? Is that how you handle problems, vote them off the island?  Too much reality TV.  

I see, you are bored with it, but I did not pose the original question in this thread, "think we need a new Pope since he has confirmed Evolution?"

I jumped in on it, I see  lots of responses here besides mine, including yours, so I don't think it was a "sigh" and a yawn.  

Heidi, don't let them scare you away! :(    These oldtimers can get pretty tough.

The subject has been pretty much exhausted.  See ya!

We all will, of course, respond to the topic to the degree that we're interested or not interested, so I see no problem.

Ok, I was referring to the fact that this 8 or 9 page thread was started due to a spam.  That's all.  Try not to bash the people on your team.  It's a quick and easy way to not have a team.

Mr. 5020, actually I wasn't really responding to your post. I was just making a general comment about the thread. I believe at times it gets exhausting. But then sometimes a new idea will be posted that renews my interest. I truly apologize if you felt that I was discounting what you said. I was trying to elaborate on it and I obviously didn't do a very good job. But i don't believe I bashed you in any way. I hope you don't see this as a team. All of us agree with some things and not others that all of us say.  The important thing is that we are united in CHRIST and are searching for the truth. I expect there will be times when another born again Christian will disagree with me and I with him. It's not a put down of each of us as a person, just different viewpoints from which we learn. But thanks for pointing out your feelings. When I look at my post next to yours it does look like a response to yours. I'll try to be more sensitive in the future. Thanks.

I wasn't talking to you Heidi.  No apology necessary.

Oh, sorry. Sometimes it' so easy to misread posts. I, for one can't access happy faces on my keyboard because the control functions aren't working right. I know i should take it in to be fixed but I haven't taken the time. That's why i haven't tried to use the quote option. I'm sure if i could do that, my posts would be less ambiguous. Actually I'm just assuming the quote button won't work. Maybe if i gave it a try, I would find out. Duh! Happy face. Keep up the good work, Mr. 5020!

Come on, guys, it is 9-11. For the Catholic, Protestants, and Atheists that died 2 years ago to this day, and those who have died since, lets give it a rest.


Read through the thread again.


I quoted from the Catholic Encyc. and the Bible, that these practices still exist, but so what? It is just a discussion.

1. The smiley face is there for a reason, it is there so you will not take the statement to seriously.

2. How do we handle our problems? According to you, we burn our problems at the steak and cut them in hafe. Though You have yet to show me where it is in the Catechism, and/or where of the bible say that is wrong. Not saying it isn’t, just saying you haven’t proven it yet. The Catechism is numbered, as is the bible, Finding some good prove using Catholic literature seems easy enough. Why you have not done so is beyond me.

3. You seem more then happy to vote Catholics out of Christianity.

Nobody can "vote" Catholics out of Christianity. They are either Christians or they're not regardless of what any human being says. It's like a vote of whether God exists and the majority wins. The fact that you identify yourself as a Catholic before you identify yourself as a Christian, Tibby, shows where your attachments lie.

What kinds of posts show respect to the dead and which ones don't? Who decides? Jesus said "Let the dead bury the dead." I can respect and feel remorse for the 911 victims whnever i feel remorse for them, not just because I'm told to. If you want to give this topic a rest today, you're certainly entitled to.

Where have I identify my self as a Catholic before a Christian? Am I posting in CATHOLICS Unite or CHRISTIANS Unite? The fact that I am here and I don’t post at any Catholic Boards should be enough to show you I see my self as a Christian First. It is just semantics, Catholic is just a word, it all means the same thing,. The only time I say I'm Catholic on this board is when the topic call for it, like when Catholics are being attacked for example. And most of the Catholics here are the same way I am. Stop fussing over semantics! Why do you have to use the word “Christian”? A word is a word, the power is in the connotation.

YOU are the ones who continued this topic, not us. You are the ones who first took this as a chance to attack Catholics. Those fact prove your anti-Catholic. You can claim to be fair all you want, but I have yet to see you attack Fundamentalism the way you are attacking Catholicism here. In fact, you attack your Christian brothers who claim to be Catholics more viscously then you have attacked the non-Christians on the board. Stop condemning us and they saying you are treating us equal to ever other Denomination. Everyone but you has caught on to the fact you are anti-Catholic, just come out and admit you have a strong anti-Catholic Prejudges, already! And please, for the love of God, stop picking fights over semantics!

You are so defensive of the Catholic denomination, Tibby, that you can't look at it objectively. I can see the pro's and con's of any denomination and I have more than once brought up the problems of the protestant churches. Maybe you haven't seen those posts or maybe you're just not looking. I just don't hear much about being born again in the Catholic church and i'm not going to take back my opinion because you take it personally. No church is perfect and i think we have to be able to see that in order to rectify what needs to be rectified in them.

Maybe thats because the Catholic (and similar) churches use different language to express these concepts.

You are very quick to point out that claiming to be born again doesn't mean someone is.  By the same token, just because someone doesn't use the phrase "born again" doesn't mean that they are not.

Catholic & protestant churches use very different language, often for very similar ideas.  They also often use the same word or phrase to mean very different things.  Unless you are willing to understand the other's language, you are doing nothing but attacking straw men.

I look at it objectively. I don’t agree with the Mary doctrine, and I have strong feelings against how they dealt with the Reformation. . Yeah, you posted a few token posts against Protestants, just like when someone says “I’m not racist, but…” right before making a racist comment. It is a politically correct disclaimer to make everyone believe you aren’t prejudges. Who do you think your fooling? Maybe your self, but no one here. And you didn’t say a thing about all churches having problems till I brought up the fact that Catholics aren’t the only ones with problems! The came into this thread with one goal, to attack Catholics, and you have continued that theme for 9 pages now!

Edia- well said! That is why most Catholics blow off the Anti-Catholic propaganda. The anti-Catholics think it is about stubbornness, but the truth is this: The falsehood doesn’t come from the proof they are discrediting the Dagma with, it comes from the misquoting of the Dogma itself.

I have said on this forum that in the past 3 months i have been angry at the Lutheran church for their baptismal doctrine. So no, it didn't come from "political correctness" or to "show" that I'm open-minded, nor did it come from the fact that you brought it up. In fact, i have been angrier at the Lutheran church than the catholic church until lately. So, no, Tibby, you do not know why i brought it up.

If you disagree with some of the practices of the Catholic church, then why are you angry at us for the same thing?

I'm tired of caustic and snide remarks and I will no longer put up with it. If you want to reply with snide remarks, that's your decision. I will no loger answer posts which contain them.

Allow me to quote a piece of my last post, READ IT this time:


You did mention the Lutheran, AFTER I said the Catholic Church shares the same problems as other Churches.



I am perfectly fine with someone disagreeing with the Catholic church. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing. It is the merciless thrashing I don’t like.



Snide remarks? You’ve lost me. What “snide” remarks did I make? By snide, do you mean “Making Heidi angry” by any chance? Oh, that WAS a snider remark, wasn’t it?


Tell us about the Lutheran problem of yours?  How did you run into this problem? What issued do you have with the baptismal doctrine?

Even remarks like "making Heidi angry" are snide. They are belittling. The tone of your posts has been defensive and snappy. You have assumed things very quickly instead of asking what my motives are. Orders like "READ it next time", assuming i didn't read it. I have seen none of your responses to my posts as being respectful to me. Even when I suggested you look to God for answers, I got a sarcastic response. I'm tired of it.

 My attack of the Catholic church is not an attack on you. I'm only commenting on the catholic church for the same reason i am the Lutheran church. I WANT PEOPLE TO BE SAVED and i don't feel that the catholic and the Lutheran churches are perpetuating the message of salvation the way Jesus meant it. If that's true, then there are millions of people who think they're saved but they're not. I feel for them. But unless the message of salvation is given prominence in ANY church, most people will continue to think they're saved through babptism. My anger is at the "teachers of the law" who don't want to re-examine their doctrine even if it's not scriptural because they don't want to upset the apple cart. A church is as corrupt as the people in it. But when the hierarchy is as grand as the catholic church, there simply is more room for corruption.

I want to elaborate on the Lutheran church but i'm awfully tired right now. I jsut hope that we can disagree respectfully. My gripes about the catholic church are not aimed at you, Tibby.

Do you realise how arrogant this sounds?
The Catholic church, the Lutheran Church, the Othodox Church(s), etc, have built up their doctrine and dogma based on centuries of careful thought and analysis of scripture by some of the greatest minds of the last 2000 years, and (in their opinion) none of it is contrary to scripture, but they are supposed to throw it all away because you come along and tell them they've got it wrong all along?

Tell me what's biblical about lent?
Why do some catholics still feel thay can't eat meat on Friday?(this is also glaringly opposed to scripture 1Tim4:1-5)
Why do they still claim priests are not to marry? (refference same scripture) and I don't want to hear about the random ones that allow them to marry.  If it weren't "church doctrine" they wouldn't have to have made it publially known that they were reconsidering that issue after the huge sex scandal.

There are three simple questions of things contrary to scripture.  (I guess those minds weren't so special after all.)

I could name a lot more but I'm just going with these three.  I was also thinking about the comment from knox about the southern baptist convention.  They're pretty pathetic and I wouldn't consider them baptists really.  The biggest problem I have with both the RCC/Orthodox and protestant churches is their headship garbage, where one person(s) make up the rules that they all have to "officially" agree with.  It's unscriputral.  Every church is responsible unto themselves and having Christ as their head.  You can't show me anywhere in scripture where it shows there being a central authority other than Jesus Christ.

It's a time of preparation for Easter, and a time to remember Christs' temptation in the wilderness, apart from a host of other things.  But more to the point what's unbiblical about lent?  The onus is on you to demostrate that something is unbiblical.

Its a form of fasting, I believe, which is not what Paul is refering to there.

It's not a doctrine.  It is a discipline.  I suggest you read up on the difference, which is huge.

They aren't because you haven't understood them.

St Paul springs to mind.

Heidi- reread your first post. Came on a little strong, don’t you think? If you don’t want to fight, then do not attack. I mean, you said “Catholics worship the church, the virgin Mary and the law.” Kind of snide, don’t you think?

Saved, we already went through the Marriage thing. There are a few married priests the Catholic Church. It is a Personal Choice. Most of them would rather spend all there time in the Church, helping the flock, not running around working at a second job, or making the Church play for a family.

Edia, well spoken, again. Not only are you wise, but also more tactful then anyone on either side who has posted on this thread. It is a shame they are just going to ignore your reply and keep on believing what they want.

Tibby,
What if it's true that the catholics worhip the virgin Mary and the Pope? I think that no matter how I say it, you're going to take offense at it. Even if i sugar- coated the way i said it, the very IDEA that I think the catholics worship the pope and the virgin Mary is what angers you. Is that my fault? I just want to know what's TRUE more than i care about who's right or wrong. That's why I search all things. How are we going to find out the truth without questioning? Truth-seekers are willing to entertain ALL sides of an issue, not just what they want to believe. I used to think that the Catholic church was ruled by the holy Spirit. But now i have my doubts. How am I going to alleviate these doubts without questioning? You have said that you look at both sides of the Catholic church. Then why do you attack us for doing the same thing? Jesus was VERY bold, and sometimes harsh the way He spoke. Those who were convicted were angry at His words. Those who wanted to learn, opened their ears. The important thing is the willingness to get to the truth. I'm sorry if you were offended, I certainly have not meant to offend you. Churches are simply institutions. They are not us. Attacking a church doesn't mean that we are being attacked.

As for "teachers of the law", Jesus was the angriest at the teachers of the law precisely because it is their RESPONSIBILITY to make sure they are passing along Christ's meaning. It sounds like you think, Ebia, that just because somebody studies in a sminary and is ordained by a church,   he is always right. That is idol worship. I'm glad that Luther had the courage to go up against these "teachers of the law" druing the reformation. Otherwise, these "teachers of the law" would still be passing on non-scriptural teachings. You can put your faith in these teachers of the law. I prefer to put my faith in Christ.

If I sound angry, it's because I am angry at the teachers of the law. There is so much corruption and self deception going on in them in the name of Christ. I expect that all of us are into self-decpetion and and some kind of corruption but when somebody sets himself up as an "expert" on Christianity, he owes it to himself and the people he's placed in his hands to make sure that he is passing on the right message. That is one reason why I think Christ is harsher toward them more than humble sinners.

Wouldn't it make a whole lot of sense, Heidi to take your questions to a Catholic discussion board? Here is a search I did
on Google using the search terms 'catholic discussion board'. I'm sure the good Christians at any of these boards would be more than happy to discuss Roman Catholicism with you, and answer any questions you might have.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=catholic+discussion+boards&btnG=Google+Search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=catholic+discussion+boards&btnG=Google+Search)

I have actually thought about that, Knox, but i don't think it would do any good. I've been trying that with the Lutheran church but they aren't willing to discuss it. They think because they're all experts that they must be right. That mindset is extremely difficult to penetrate. The Catholic church is a lot bigger than the Lutheran church and the pope is considered the Holy Father by the congregation.  How humble do you think they will be? Teachers of the law are human beings like the rest of us. Unfortunately, it is they who do not think so. That is, of course, why Jesus was so angry at them.

However, I might be led to try to discuss it in the hopes that there will be a few who are interested in seeing another viewpoint. It petrifies me to do this, precisely because of comments about how arrogant it is for a person like me to DARE question an "authority" on Christ. Never mind that those authorities are human like the rest of us and capable of misinterpreting scripture, just like me. They couldn't possibly be wrong. Who are the arrogant ones?

Well Heidi we're not talking about "The Catholic Church" here. These people on those boards are individual believers, not "Teachers Of The Law".

You said that you were on a search for truth. It's clear that you are only interested in presenting your 'viewpoint'. How you have arrived at your point of view is not clear, since you think that discussing Catholicism with Catholics themselves wouldn't do 'any good'.

Personally I think you are being grossly unfair in making the unwarranted assumption that these people would be less than honest with you.

My fear of talking to the catholic church is based on the reaction I have gotten by talking to the Lutheran church. They are going to believe what they believe and i am going to believe what i believe. That has shown itself to be true even on this forum. So why did you suggest I talk to them? What good will it do? The answers i have gotten in this forum about the catholic church have only re-enforced my beliefs about it. They DO worship the pope. When addressed by the rich man as "good sir" Jesus said, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone." Yet the pope has the audactity to be addressed as the Holy Father. Who does he think he is, pronouncing himself as better than Jesus? If someone called me holy, it would make me sick. I'm not holy and according to Christ, neither is anyone else, including HIMSELF! It obviously doesn't make the pope sick because he hasn't changed that practice.  He obviously sees himself as holy.

The Catholic church is not going to change its mind or it already would have. It obviously endorses its beliefs. I do not. I used to, so I have already seen their viewpoint. After looking at both viewpoints, i have come to my own. If they have seen my viewpoint, rejected it, and retained their own, then they obviously do endorse their beliefs. There probably isn't any point in discussing this further. I am just going to retain the right to respectfully disagree with the viewpoint of the Catholic curch. If people want to judge and berate me for it, that's their choice.

The lies about Catholics worshiping Mary and the pope are not what anger me. The arrogance you display by implying you know more about what Catholics believe then Catholics do, THAT is what angers me. You are not looking for truth, you aren’t even willign to listen to our side. Did you ever think that maybe listening to a few Saved Catholics will help you find this truth you are looking for? Clearly not, you have done nothing but told us, in essence, we don’t know what we believe, and you do. Good job, you’re a run-of-the-mill anti-Catholic. THAT is the truth. You are trying to hide your prejudges, even from your self. When ever we correct you, you tell us we are to close-minded to listen to you. Hey, guess what, this is a double edged sword, from our point of view YOU are to close-minded to here what we are saying.



Now you are comparing your self to Jesus? Don’t you think his perspective was a little bit more enlightened then yours, seeing how he is GOD and all? Yeah, I’m glad Luther left the church, too. One less Drunken, anti-Semitic for the Catholic Church to deal with.



Maybe the reaction is due to the fact that you state lies, and try to pass it off as fact, and act like you know more about our doctrine then we do! Good sir is a term use all the time, not just to address the pope, but to address many people. It was ever popular in the Mid-evil and Renascence times. Come you, you watch movie, you’ve been to Ren fairs, you taken European History in College, Good Sir is a common title for someone of high social rank, or just someone you respect in those times. On top I have, I’ve never heard the Pope called “Good Sir.” How have what we said proven we worship the Pope? If someone said the Pastor of your church sells Child porn online, through the Churches computers, you would defend him, would you not? You do not worship him, but someone is attacking his good name, you are not just going to let it slide are you? You are going to correct that person. Same thing with the Pope, all we did was correct falsehoods about him. Catholics see the Pope as like the Pastor of the whole Church world wide. And how is “Holy Father” so wrong? It is just a title! Why do you protestants make such a big deal out of a simple thing like a name? What’s in a name? Do you think God cares about semantic at all? Do you think God cares about what you say to the letter? Or does he look at the spirit of what you say? Words are words, I would be the same person if my parents named me Jack, John, Joe, or Ashley!  Christians unite would be the same forum, even if the title was “Unite all Christians.” Word, without action are nothing, right? So then why are makings such a big deal out of words? Out of NOTHING?



That is good, just keep in mind you said “RESPECTFULLY disagree.” You have  yet to show ANY amount of respect for the Catholic Church, or any remorse for your ruthless attacks. We are not judging or berating you, we are trying very hard to clear up a few misconceptions you have. But you have rejected our viewpoints, and retained your own, even though we are in the church, and you are just on the outside looking in, without any clue of what makes us tick.

Sigh ok, catholics deprive themselves of something material in preperation for easter?  That's a pretty thin one and ask most catholics why they have to do it.



Apparently you have no idea what fasting is then.


Ya sure whatever you say about that.  Perhaps you need to see what is taught a little more.


It looks like you don't understand them.


That's a shame since Paul never claimed to be an authority over the church.  In fact many times he says he is but nothing.  Maybe you should read it a little more or perhaps get a clue on who the authority over the church is.  To even think you would claim that Paul was head over Christ is appalling.

Tibby, you are in a lot of denial about the Catholic church and any further pointing it out is futile. The catholic church is notorious for raising up humans as higher than Christ. I do not respect the Catholic church. When i say i respectfully disagree, i am trying to agree to disagree. You, however, still want to get mad at those for disagreeing with your viewpoint. I'm not mad at you. I just don't think we are going to agree with each other. I've already told you I used to agree with your side, so I have seen your viewpoint. I do not believe that you can see our viewpoint.

Why is that thin?  Look, if you're determined not to understand, why ask the question?

Still determined not to understand the different language, eh?

Have you looked up the difference?  No, I thought not.  You assume you know what you are talking about and you clearly haven't a clue.

That's not what I said, and you know it.

When you're viewpoint consists mainly of attacking a church for:
a.  stuff you haven't understood
and
b.  stuff that other churches are equally guilty of

Its hardly surprising that those who are members of or sympathetic to that church get a bit annoyed.

Once again, Ebia, well said. Heidi, if you are set on not listening to our view point, don't accuse us of not listening to yours. I don’t know what you call it, but in the Catholic Church, we call that Hypocrisy. We hear what you are saying, but what you are saying isn’t true. It would be like if a Frenchman where to say “Americans are all dirty hippies who smoke weed.” It isn’t that we would not listen to him, it is just that what he has to say it totally false. Maybe there are a few Americans who are like that, but the vast majority aren’t.

I may be going out on a limb here, but I would have to say that the "vast majority" of Catholics don't know why they are Catholics.

Okay, Tibby, you're right. The pope is humble, the virgin Mary is not prayed to and neither are the saints. The church has no problems.  That seems to be the only thing that will satisfy you. Can we drop it now?

Hehehe.  Hey, Tibby, if you believe that, as the old song says:

"I got some oceanside property in Arizona,
From my front porch you can see the sea.
I got some oceanside property in Arizona,
and if you act now I'll throw the golden gate in free." ;D

If you want to drop it, just stop posting in this thread.

As for 5020, I think most Catholics do know why they are Catholics. I know of a church full of Catholics who do, at least. How many Catholics do you know, 5020?

LOL! Yep you're right. Somehow I don't think this thread has seen the last of Heidi!

Your denial is once again showing itself. I said that I used to AGREE with your viewpoint which means that I have listened and understood your viewpoint. You, however, cannot understand ours. If you have to distort my words to make a point, then  I no longer take your words seriously.

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

Just two cents worth - maybe not even that. First, I would be the first to admit that my personal beliefs have gotten in the way of fellowship with God's children. I'm guilty and I've asked God for forgiveness and guidance.

First, it should be a given that Almighty God is the core and focus of our lives. We are all sensitive when something appears to attack the core of our being, our beliefs in Almighty God.

Second, it should also be a given that nobody has the one and only true interpretation of God's Holy Word or the only correct method to worship HIM.

Man has an untold number of names for denominations and doctrines in Christianity. Two churches might even bear the same name and have disagreement in doctrine or manner of worship. In fact, the above is true even in large groups of churches where there has been an attempt to standardize doctrine and try to create harmony among members in all of their churches. It would also be true that no two pastors or ministers would be in complete agreement.

I've been asking myself some questions recently on this subject. I've only met a few people in my entire life who actually believed they had the ONLY, ONE TRUE DOCTRINE and everyone else who professed Christ in any other manner were on their way to hell. There is obviously an infinite number of various doctrines, creeds, types of baptism, types of communion, etc., etc. If two brothers or two sisters attended churches with different names, should they have any fellowship? Maybe they even agree they will spend eternity together in heaven, but they disagree on a point of doctrine. I would say they should have fellowship and realize their man named denomination or church will not be recognized in heaven. If you are part of THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST, nothing else really matters and there should be no bar to fellowship between members of this CHURCH.

This is something I have been praying about and simply wanted to share it. Let me repeat that I will be the first to plead guilty in letting a point of doctrine effect my fellowship with another brother or sister in Christ.

In Christ,
Tom

Amen Tom.
What you have said is the sign of one who truly loves God, and knows that we "see through a glass darkly."
Let me also admit that my 'devoutness' sometimes causes me to speak more 'boldly' than perhaps I should. I don't THINK I'm wrong in the truth I share, but that doesn't mean I CAN'T be wrong.
Thank you for your words, and for being who you are.
Your brother and friend, Roy.

Oh, Heidi, Heidi. My question is, why did it take you 9-10 pages to finally admit you did at one time agree? You could have said it 9 pages earlier, and saved you self a lot of trouble. What took you do long? You could have said it in the first post you made, and saves us some time and trouble. So, why did it take you so long?

What did we say that distorted your words? The only distorting going on around here is the distorting of Catholic Doctrine.

BEP- religion is a touchy issue. To admit someone else is right is to admit you are wrong, and to admit you are wrong is like saying the life you have lived is a lie. It may not be true, but you can’t help but feel such way. Thanks for sharing.

Ah, Tibby, I said that i used to believe the Catholic doctrine three times on page 10. It goes to show me that you either don't read all the posts or you distort my words. You could have read them and saved us some time and trouble.

I don't believe i've distorted the fact that the pope is called the Holy Father, or the "Hail Mary's" are said after confession, or that the Saints are prayed to, or that the pope is adorned in magnificent attire, or that there are more sacriments than Jesus asked of us, or that we are saved by baptism, or that there are venial and mortal sins, or that there is more hierarchy than is scripturally required, and on and on. Those are facts. None of those things are scriptural. They are man made and some contradict Christ's words, the person who is supposedly head of the church. No, I don't like what the catholics deem as important. I have also said that I'm sure there are some born again Christians in the church. I just don't agree with the doctrine.

In order to see what's true, one does have to look at the fact that they might be wrong. That's what i was telling Atheist when i said that all of us Christians were once unbelivers. In order to seek the truth, we had to admit that we could be wrong. That is when we found the answers. My feelings about the Catholic church have changed so i don't mind admitting when I am wrong. I would love to be wrong about them now, but there are too many things that keep re-enforcing the belief that they are too worldly to be passing on Christ's message. Maybe I'll change my mind again some day. But right now, I disagree with their doctrine.

You could say, that all of us have a little repentance due about how we have tried earnestly to present our views but in some cases, (especially my own) that there was plenty of "snide" to go around.  BEP you snapped me back into reality of how I am expected to fellowship with my fellow Christians, not put them down!  Isn't that what Satan wants, a house divided! Thanks for your wisdom!

What could be as poetic, beautiful, precious and right but this(?)

Roman 14[/u]
5  One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6  He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
7  For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8  For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
9  For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10  But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11  For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

James 1[/u]
19  Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20  For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
21  Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22  But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23  For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24  For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25  But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
26  If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
27  Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Maybe not, but you've tried to distort the significance of the phrase.

or the "Hail Mary's" are said after confession, or that the Saints are prayed to,
Depends what you mean by the word "pray".  Catholics tend to use the word differently to protestants.

Jesus, as far as I know, never used the word sacriment at all.

 
Required is not the same as helpful, and scripture does not prohib hierarchy.

Dear, oh dear.


You haven't demonstrated a single thing to be unscriptural.  And you haven't demonstrated much understanding, however much you may claim it.

More proof by assertion.


This is the real crux of it, I suspect.  You don't like it, so it must be wrong.

If the Catholic church is so poor at passing on the message, but is still many times bigger than all the other churches put together, it doesn't say much for the rest of us.

So far, you haven't demonstrated much understanding of their doctrine, so your disagreement doesn't count for a lot.

Tibby, you seem to know more about the Catholic church than the bible. Do you even know what a sacriment is? Read Jesus's words very carefully. It is in them that you will find the truth. Not in a church. Out of curiousity, Tibby, when did you get saved?

Only minus the hippies really.

It seems that nothing can break up this hair pulling, mud wrestling fight!  No wisdom from above, no fellowship of love.

There is a saying; Ignorance is bliss  (except when you have to continually read it on this web site) ;D

Tibby, ebia, et al - SNIDErs -  ???This is not WWJD

Is 58:4  Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness:[/color]

Rom 1:29  Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate...,

Greek: 054. eris, er'-is; of uncert. affin.; a quarrel, i.e. (by impl.) wrangling:--contention, debate, strife, variance.

Prov 1:22  How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?[/color] :-X

Jesus said "I didn't come to bring peace, but a sword". That's not say that He wants us to drum up conflict, but  He had to stand up for what's true, even if it CAUSED conflict. Therefore I think it's imperative that each of us knows what we're fighting for. My biggest concern here is people's salvation. I believe that's done out of love. It might be considered tough love but I think Jesus was the master of tough love. But it is genuine love because it gives us the only lasting love. It causes father to go against son, mother against daughter, etc.

I personally do not think that the Catholic church emphsizes salvation more than it emphasizes works and deeds. Someone just told me that the Catholic church DISCOURAGES reading the bibe. It reminded me of when i went to the Catholic church. There were no bible in the pews and we were NEVER told to read it. How can one understnad christ's worda and form a [PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM if they don't understand, not only how to do it in the first place, but what His words mean? Right now i am concerned about Tibby's salvation. If she is saved, then there is no problem. But  she isn't, then my wish for her is that she receive it. If she isn't saved, it's not her fault. It is the teaching of the church that led her to believe she was. As i said before, I know many more catholics who admitted that they weren't saved until after they left the church, than people of any other denomination. There's something wrong here and i care enough about people's souls to search out why. I think there are some things more important than just to be quiet. As Christians, we HAVE to stand up for Him. But Jesus also said that we will be persecuted for it, so I expect that.

You also said you where leaving this thread like 10 times already, and you have yet to do that. Yes, you did say you agreed at one time on page 10 a few times. That was the point of my last post, genius. The point of my last post is summed up to: Yes, you have said you agreed with us, after 9-10 page of not agreeing. Why did it take so long? For the love of Pete, Heidi, don’t tell me to read yours post when you don’t bother to read mine. Do me a favor, promise NEVER to take a splinter out of my eye, ok?



I take back what I said, you don’t need to read my post. You need to spend all your extra time reading the scripture and the Catholic Catechism. What is your address? I’ll send you a copy of both.



What about creeping salvation?



Well, in that case, I have some good news for you…



I was raised in a Christian home, you know the story.



Oh no? He had no problem telling people they were a brood of Viper. He happily throw out those who cheapened his temple with a whip. You want a peaceful role model, go for Gandhi. This is Jesus we are talking about. The man who was so intense about what he believed that he sweat blood. This is the man who never said a word while he was brutally whipped! What would Jesus do? Jesus would die for the worlds sins! DO NOT Tell me to do what Jesus would do until you have died on the cross for the world, ok? If you don’t like this “war” that is taking place, then don’t be a party to it, don’t post on this thread.



I’m just going to point out this post was a dead post until you got a hold of it, Heidi. You used SPAM of all things to attack their sisters and brothers in Christ. Way to keep the Peace, Heidi!



You call this persecution? Making a Martyr out of your self, uh? You are not standing up for what you believe, you are attacking what WE believe. WE are the ones standing up what we believe. You are not a victim here, you brought this upon your self.

As for the Catholic church Discouraging the bible, I’d suggest you not believe everything someone tells you. Why should there be bibles in the pews? First of my, my church doesn’t have pews, we have linking chairs with on pockets on the back. Where do you want US to keep Bibles? Secondly, It isn’t scriptural for us to have bibles in the pews. It isn’t scriptural for us to have pews! Thirdly, the Preacher READS the bible verse to you, anyways. And Finally, why are you so lazy that you can’t drag your own copy up to church? I don’t know about you, Heidi, but I would rather have my copy at church.

No, I don't know the story. I got news for you, Tibby, being raised in a Christian home is not going to save you. Read scripture. You have to have a PERSONAL relationship with Christ. That means that there is no intercessor like the church. Jesus said in John, 17:3, "Eternal life is this; that you know the one true God and His son, Jesus Christ." Anyone can know ABOUT Christ, even Osama Bin Laden. But KNOWING Him on a personal level is the only thing that will get you to heaven. Jesus said in Matthew, 7: 21--23, "Not everyone who says 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophecy in your name, and in your name did we not drive our demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will say to them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me you evildoers!" Jesus is talking about "professed" believers who don't KNOW Him. Until you have a heart change, Tibby, you are not born again. It is like night and day.

You need to ask HIM,  not the pope, or a priest, to forgive you for your sins and ask Him into your life. Then when you receive the Holy Spirit, you will be born again. I have sensed from your posts that you are not born again which is why i asked. I could be wrong, but your answer to my question convinces me all the more that you are not. At any rate, what have you got to lose to ask Him?  

Boy, I really think this thread is about worn out.

do Catholics still use the confession box?If so why?

Here is a link to an article from the Catholic Encyclopedia that will answer your question.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm

A priest was walking along the school corridor near the pre-school wing when a group a little ones were trotting by on the way to the cafeteria. One little lad of about three or four stopped and looked at him in his clerical clothes and asked, "Why do you dress funny?" He told him that he was a priest and that this is the uniform priests wear.

Then he pointed to the priest's little plastic collar insert and asked, "Does it hurt? Do you have a boo-boo?" The priest was perplexed till he realized that to him the collar insert looked like a band-aid.

So the priest took it out to show him. On the back of the collar are raised letters giving the name of the manufacturer. The little guy felt the letters, and the priest asked, "Do you know what those words say?"

"Yes I do," said the lad who was not old enough to read. Peering intently at the letters he said, "It says, kills ticks and fleas up to six months!" ;D

Then read between the lines, but learn to do it with at least a modicum of intelligence.

Fortunately, it's not your opinion that will count.

I feel this thread is getting worn out, but utterly stupid posts like this don't help.

Also someone said, probably Tibby, 5020, how many Catholics do you know?  Well, unlike some people on this thread (on both sides of the issue), I am not throwing unsupported accusations.  I know many Catholics.  I live close to the Mexico border, and the 2000 Census demographics say that 84% of the area claims to belong to the Roman Catholic "church".  As you can tell, I've also done much research on the subject.  I hope this helps, Tibby.

I believe they are "judging by your fruit."  Bad fruit, bad tree.  Good fruit, good tree.  Since I've encountered you on this forum, you have fought against every single biblical principle you have found.

So, perhaps you can tell us how many "average" mexicans you've interviewed.

I would also like to point out that, despite what one might think, Catholism varies substantially between countries.  To give a 1st world example, you'd get a very different response to questions of peoples understanding if you did the same survey in Ireland and Italy (both very Catholic countries).  I imagine the same would be true in the 3rd world countries: Mexico, Brazil, Africa and Asia may all be very different.  If you've done so much research, perhaps you can enlighten us - with evidence rather than assertion please.

Looks more like confusing pears for bad, mishappen apples to me.

Disagreeing with you doesn't make my views unbiblical.

Being a full-time missionary for two years, I would have to guess somewhere between one and two thousand.
I didn't say disagreeing with me.  I said disagreeing with every Biblical principle.  In other words, there's basically two "teams" (for lack of better term) on CU Forums:  Christians and non-Christians.  In every thread, your posts are always with the non-Christians.

In this thread I'm not siding with non-Christians - I'm siding with a Catholic Christian.
If it's true on average there could be any number of reasons, for example:
1.  non-Christians are siding with me, not the other way around.
2.  I don't bother to post on threads where I agree with the majority
3.  I like to contraversial
4.  Christians on this board are not representative of the wider Christian world.
5.  I forgot to check-in my brain when I signed up
etc

Like I already stated.
Not sure of the point, but still funny.

Since you've kinda become my friendly rival (or that's what I've been told), ebia, how do you post a picture in a post?

Well Ebia and Tibby, I'm sorry that my concern for your salvation and whether the teachings of your church are biblical, bother you. Since you can't receive it with love, you distrust my motives. For that, there is nothing I can do.

Heidi- to your post on the last page- If you are saying “You can’t ride on your parents coat tails to heaven” I agree. If you are saying we HAVE to have a magic moment where you ask god and he comes into your heart, then I’d have to disagree very, very strongly.
To your concern for our salvation- You heart is in the right place, at least.
To your concern for out church teachings- as someone who thinks we Worship Mary, the Pope, and the Law, I don’t know your teachings are your business.

Knox- No kidding

A4C- I love it! Lol, I’ll pass that along to a ew Preist I know will get a kick out of it. I preferred the one about the 3 guys walking into a bar, one was a priest… you know the rest  ;)

A Minister, a Priest, and a Rabbi walk into a bar.

The bartender looks at them and says, "What is this, some kind of joke"?

lol, I forget that one. Accually it was the "A rapist, a preist and a petafil walk into the bar... and that's just the first guy"

I know, I know, but I couldn't help my self.

eh?  ???

I don't agree that the teachings of the Catholic church are none of my business. Whose business are they? Just the Catholics? Why do they not want others to know what they're teaching?

You can't be serious. The RCC is the largest Christian organization on the planet. They are not a secret organization. There are any number of places you can go to find out what their doctrines are. The fact is that anyone who wants to know will find that Catholics are eager and willing to tell them. The Catholic church in your neighborhood probably offers classes. Meanwhile, haven't you about beat this to death?

Jesus was sinless, he had the right, he was also gracious in his teachings- now you??? hmmm   ;D

muy stupido

SAYS WHO?
Not a problem, there is still time....(you are probably nicer without it)

Me, I guess.  It was offered as a possible explanation.  Whether or not it is true isn't the point

I think ebia is right, for better or for worse. Evangelical Protestants, or 'born-again Christians', though they are very vocal, and very active on the internet, are a minority in the Christian world at large. The vast majority of Christians are only dimly aware of the controversies that seem to obsess white North American Protestant Evangelicals.

I odnt understand this?..

 Finally, the confession is made not in the secrecy of the penitent's heart nor to a layman as friend and advocate, nor to a representative of human authority, but to a duly ordained priest with requisite jurisdiction and with the "power of the keys", i.e., the power to forgive sins which Christ granted to His Church.


What does that say?The preist can forgive sins?Also ive always thought there was no meteator between man and GOD.

Sunodino, again your replies are EXCELLENT and i again sense that they are coming from the Spirit rather than a doctrine. Jesus indeed spoke firmly, boldly and sometimes harshly because it was out of love. How people respond to those words is their responsibility.

Jesus prophesied that the majority of "professed" Christians would outnumber  the born again Christians and of course, this has again shown itself to be true. Christ said the the ONLY kind of Christian is a born again Christian so the other people who profess to be Christians don't know God. Those are Jesus's words, not mine. If people have a problem with them, take it up with Christ, not me. After all, we are all told to be more Christ-like. One has to know what Christ was like before one can "attempt" to fall in His footsteps. People who are more Christ'-like will simply be persecuted by unbelievers, which also seems to include some Catholics on this board. They think Christ was "nice" all the time and said what they want to hear. I am a sinner and will always be a sinner. But I believe EVERY single word that Christ said was true. The ones who haven't read His words, need to read them to find out what they're for or against.

A tad snide, there, Sumodino. WWJD?, ;) On a more serous note, that is exactly my point. You can’t compare us to Jesus. We has “sinless.” Have for helping me prove my point


muy stupido
So, we have resorted to Spanish insults as a way of arguing now? Anyways, why an I “muy stupido”?  Because I don’t believe a church is required to pay money to spend on 1 bible per person, when most of the people have bibles laying at home anyways, when that money could be spend helping the poor, helping those who NEED IT. Let people starve to death, let them die in 3rd world countries, but God forbid our church goers have to care 2-4 lbs book. Judge a church by what’s in the heart, not what in the pews.

It's from my own experience, and what people have told me about their experiences about the lack of encouragement to read the bible in the Catholic church. If you have experiences about the church encouraging bible reading, please enlighten us. I'd like to know. Your previous posts on what the Catholic church does endorse have only re-enforced my belief that it is not coming from the Spirit, but instead their own dogma. That is just my opinion.

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

I'm positive that God looks at the heart of the individual, not the name or denomination of the church that individual attends. God is the sole judge on this matter in what HE sees or what HE doesn't see.

I'm also positive that God isn't very impressed with all of the names and tags man has devised to label themselves with. God would probably consider many of these tags and labels to be the vanity and foolishness of mankind.

God wouldn't ask if these tags or labels meant that the individual has Jesus in the heart as their personal Lord and Saviour. Many of these tags and labels mean different things to different people, so they really have become a matter of confusion. In fact, every person may have a different definition of what the tags, labels, and descriptions mean. This confusion extends far beyond the denominational tag or label.

As an example, how many definitions and opinions might we get if someone asked "what is a Fundamentalist, Legalist, Dispensationalist, etc., etc., etc.?" We might get as many answers and variations if someone asked, "what does a Baptist, Church of Christ, Pentecostal, Catholic, Non-Denominational, etc., etc., etc., believe?" I think the end result is the same, God looks on the heart of the individual, not their label or tag. These labels or tags will not exist in heaven, and they will mean absolutely nothing.

In Christ,
Tom

What bothers me, though, BEP, is how these labels and tags can actually KEEP people from coming to Christ. There are people who have been chosen to receive the Holy Spirit in some of these churches. The ones who are led to spread the Good News to them will do so. But in order for these people to receive the Holy Spirit, they first have to know what salvation is. If it's not coming from their church, then it has to come from outside the church. Unfortunately, that might be my ministry. I say "unfortunately" because tyring to get through all these labels and tags to a person's heart is very difficult because they have been indoctinated by labels and tags.

If that is your 'ministry', Heidi, why are you wasting your time here, badgering one poor Catholic who has clearly rejected your message (whatever it is)? Wouldn't your time doing the Lord's work be much better spent on other forums where there are more than one or two Catholics? I mean there are forums where what you have to say will be read by hundreds of Catholics. I already gave you a list of Catholic forums, think of it! Your message can be heard by Catholics numbering in the thousands! Why wait? Start now.

Knox, How do you know I don't? Besides, people who take the time to come to this forum are seeking, including you, even though you might now know it. The ones who are being drawn by God are the ones whom God has chosen. (Christ's words).

Well actually I hope you aren't posting on other forums too. 346 posts in two weeks! You claim to be happily married, with children. Where would you get the time to post on other forums? Where do you get the time to make all these posts here? Why are you here, anyway? You're not seeking. You've shown time and again that you really pay scant attention to what other people say. You rarely if ever have anything positive or uplifting to say. How did you spend your days before you discovered Christians Unite, anyway?

Knox, I'm here because in the last month, witnessing has become my most important, though difficult goal in life. Before that I spent my time writing screenplays, playing the piano, volunteering in the community, being with my famity, etc. Most of my chief interests were in glorifying myself. Now, it is spreading Gods' word. The internet is a wonderful place to reach a large group of people who are interested in this topic. My husband works during the day and when he is at home, we are always interacting while I'm not online. I go online when he is busy. My son likes to skateboard and be with his friends. When he is home, we also interact.

You have said that you are here simply because you like to debate. I'm trying to show you that debate for debate's sake is a waste of time. You will get no answers because you don't believe in the Holy Spirit which is behind the Christian answers you do get. So if you don't believe our answers, you can't learn anything new. I'm here to spread God's words. You're here to debate the answers given you. (your words) Who's wasting time?

Knox, I might be mixing you up with someguy. One of you said you were here to debate. If I am, I greatly apologize. There have been so many posts that it's hard for me to keep track of who said what. Again, if you didn't say that, i greatly apologize. In any case, if you are here to look for answers, please look to God for them. He is the only one who can give them to you. If you aren't here for answers, could you tell us why you are here? Thank you.

I don't know why you would apologize for that, Heidi. You have yet to acknowledge my repeated requests that you stop calling me an atheist. The fact that you can't tell one poster from another is not looking good for you. At the very least you could see whose name is on the post you are responding to. If you cared. I don't believe that you are witnessing at all. I think you are just another self-absorbed internet junkie.

lol, Heidi always confused you, Knox. That time, in the first of thie thread, she thought I said sometihng you said. Then she confused you for one of the trolls, then for someguy.  ;D SHe cares for your soul, Knox, not you name. You're a Catholic, your name is already going to hell. ;D lol

Maybe there's a reason why you are finding it difficult.

You attack people's faith, without understanding it, and with logically flawed arguments.
You ignore it when people try to corrrect your misconceptions and fallacies.
You don't read what other poeple post propertly, but instead attack what you think they have said.
You insist that the only true christians are those who are "born again"; How do you know who is born again - because they agree with you.

No-one is going to listen to you if you don't engage with what they have to say.

It is you who are not reading posts, Ebia. Jesus said that the only Christian is a born again Christian. Those are His words, not mine...Or don't you read the bible?  Do you not believe Him? Only God knows who is born again or not.

I thought your faith was Christianity, not Catholicism. I have not attacked Christianity. The Catholics see their DENOMINATION as a religion. They forget that their religion is Christianity.

It's always difficult to witness to people who are not drawn by God. Jesus said, "No one can come to the Father unless the Father draws Him." It is up to God to choose us. If someone isn't called, he will ALWAYS argue against salvation. Your intense arguments lead me to wonder about yours.

What about my arguments are flawed? I listed several of the beliefs that the Catholic church endorse several posts ago. Nobody disputed them. Did you not read them or do you agree with them?

It is you who are not reading all the posts. It is also your arguments that are flawed. I cannot take your posts seriously any more.

There you go again. Saying we are all being “Catholic” before Christian. And yet, you have posted with us in many threaded, and never knew we where Catholic until this thread. Maybe it was YOUR attack that brought us out. We never mention the catholic church except when someone attacks it, so I still do not see how you can say we are catholic before Christian.

And which post was that? As I recall, we have answer all your questions. Several times, in fact. Several times a day, for the past week or so. What NEW information did you post that we didn't reply to?

There you go again, attacking what you think I said, not what I said.

You seem to have forgotten that I'm not Catholic.

Its always difficult, but you don't have to make it even harder.

There you go again - "anyone who disagrees with me isn't Christian"

Someone hasn't been paying attention.

You've never showed any evidence of taking anyone's post seriously unless it agrees with you.

1 Corinthians 10-17

Maybe if certain groups of Christian would not attack other groups with lies, and in their ignorance, refuse to take correction, we could all get along better. ;) ;D



Oh, in that case, lets just sit up in our 20 million dollar church build and enjoy the milk and honey and wait for the all the poor to kill each other or die out! Read the story, read your bible for a change, as I recalled, Jesus clearly state “You will always have the poor among you, you will not always have me.”



Then why can’t they carry it to church?  

This is my last reply to you on this subject, I find you bitter and offensive in your replies.  My guess is you are around 19 or 20 years old, (maybe even younger) by the way you articulate your sentences, but you should back off on Christians you don't even know, try to be a little more compassionate in your reponses. How can you correct anyone? There is no maturity in your dialog. As for me, I prefer not to have dialog with you.  God bless you and teach you.

He's 19...going on 12  ;D

Though this does not apply to all Catholics, I have found that the vast majority (our last summer in missions we calculated that 94% of the over 700 Catholics we interviewed) would answer the following question like this:

"Are you a Christian?"
"No, I'm a Catholic."

Good guess, sunodino. Man, must be heard to find one of the many posts there I TELL YOU HOW OLD I AM! No need to guess, you can READ it in several posts. You know what I think? I think you pulled the ACLU’s favorite play, you ran out of things to say, so you call me offensive, and left. Classic. You find me offensive? Ok, I’m going to fill you in one something. My beliefs have been attacked non-stop since the start of this thread, that is 14 pages. Do I sound a little bitter over anti-Catholic? Maybe because I AM! Did that ever strike you as a possibility? That maybe I AM bitter? Maybe I don’t like people attack what I believe, and attacking with the same ammo we proved wrong just a few posts earlier! 687 pages of the Catechism! You’d think someone would think of something other then “You worship saints.” I still want to know why it is so hard for Christians to carry their own bible to church. Either way, You have left, never to return to this thread. Running from a 19 year old. Enjoy love, I bid you farewell, and I’m sorry we could not sway you toward the truth about Catholicism. :)

5020, I’d be interested in seeing documentation on this. I’ve always been taught Catholicism was a system,. Christianity was the Faith.

I have had the same experience with catholics myself.  Also to ask them if they've been born again is interesting.  You either get looked at like you suddenly spoke in another language (which in a way we have) or they say "Oh you're one of them."

The bibles in the pews are for the unsaved who may not have one.  At least that's my uinderstanding and how our church works.  Everyone in my church does bring their own bible.

You have yet to prove anyone wrong about catholic misteachings, but if you feel you have whatever.  Only God can help you out.

As I've said before, that's exactly what you've done

Because your language has marked you out as a particular subset of protestant.

This has nothing to do with belief, and everything to do with language.

Good for you.  There is much less need to have a bible to hand during a Catholic service, and I'm sure any church of any denomination has bibles somewhere for those who wish to refer to one at any other time.

Plenty has been said.  If people are determine to hold onto their misconceptions there is little anyone can do about it.

Sorry but that's the language in the bible which means it's the LORD's language.  Therefore anything other than that language is wrong.  So if catholics can't understand what's writen in the bible we have a problem don't we?

Joh 3:3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

HHHMMM so who has the problem eh?  Looks like you can't see the kingdom of God according to scripture.


Again it's because most catholics don't read their bible so they don't know the language.  It has nothing to do with subsets and EVERYTHING to do with the Bible.  That's why we have a problem.  You keep using this poor excuse about language to siut your needs.  It is you and catholicism that is wrong here.  Funny you claimed not to be an aussie catholic.  Yet here you are constantly defending catholicism and you said you were from Australia.  I think I might have to dig that one up.


I'm a bit confused by your reply.  I was responding to tiddy's comments.  Why do you not need the bible at a catholic service?  That's awfully disconcerting considering it's out time in God's house with His Word.  HHMMMM what the heck goes on in your church services?


Plenty of foolishness and excuses full of holes without any biblical backing is all I have seen.  Your favorite seems to be this thing about language.  Apparently the RCC has declared its own special version of english that makes it uneffected from the rest of the english speaking world.   ::)

You've take the phrase out of its context in the chapter.  Not incorrectly, but in way that wouldn't be familiar to many Catholics unfamiliar with other traditions.   In the context of those verses I'd expect Catholics to be perfectly familiar with it.   I dare say, if I could be bothered to spend the time, I could find similar phrases that Catholics use frequently that you would react similarly to.  Note also, the New Jerusalem bible (and others, including Youngs Literal) translate this as "... born from above"

You really don't get the idea that other people may use language different from yours and both be right, do you?
Did I say it was a-scriptural?

See above.


sigh.  Its not poor language - its different language.  Once you grow up and learn that people use language differently according to their culture, you might grasp this.


I'm neither aussie nor catholic.

You work it out.

You're expected to be able to listen.  Which has served perfectly well for most of history, as most people couldn't have read it for themselves anyway, leaving aside that personal bibles have only been feasible for a few hundred.

Go back to school.

Most of this thread has been "lies" about the Catholic church.  These don't need bibical references to refute, they are simply untrue or misleading.

Whatever ebia, you are one of the mopst unscriptural people I have seen that claim to be Christian aside from knox here.  I'm not even going there with the translation bit.  Your excuse fails it has nothing to do with culture.  Last I checked when living in the same area it's pretty much the same when it comes to talkin about the bible.  To use "born from above" is poor at best.

I'd say since the average person can read just fine and personal bibles HAVE been out for a few hundred years, it leaves one with little excuse not to bring it.  Besides why on earth would I just blindly trust the man up front and what he says(of course nowadays we find women up there to uuughggh).  Another problem that doesn't riddle the cathlolics only.  I left a church once because the preaching person was so far off the mark in quoting scripture.

Quoting the Word of God during a sermon is not a light thing and to try and paraphase it and then claim it as what is written is unacceptable.  The times I've been in a cathlolic church I don't even think the preist used a bible he just kind went off on something.

Born from above seems to be the best translation from the limited research I've done, so you seem to be in error here, unless you've got some evidence to back up your claim that it isn't a valid translation.

Why would you need to bring one if you can listen?  Or don't you trust the people reading aloud?


If you can't trust the guy at the front to read the bible honestly, you've got bigger problems than the catholic church.

Sure he wasn't just using a different translation?  ;)


Who exactly is this accusation aimed at?

What you mean is, its not the sort of sermon/homily/exegisis that you're used to.

Ebia,

Jason is coming from a very biblical viewpoint in not just taking the speaker at face value.  I believe in the book of Acts it speaks of the believers at Berea, who searched the scriptures daily to see if what Paul was teaching them was correct.  Did they not trust Paul?  No.  They just knew him to be a man and sought God's teaching.  If what Paul said agreed with what God said - then it was good!  I personally take this approach myself, both when I sit in a service, and when I'm teaching.  It's just a matter of priority.  Many are led astray by a good speaker.

You say that it is the best translation according to your "limited research," and then you ask us for evidence to back up our claim.  Why do you state your "research?"

Once again, proving you don't read Scripture.  I could quote why, but Alinall already did that.

Ebia,

I think that the big question is do you ever study the Holy Bible for yourself and become acquainted with the teachings of the Holy Bible?

If one had a beginner's understanding of the Holy Bible, they would never promote or defend living in sin out of wedlock, alternative lifestyles, or any number of other things you have suggested. That's why so many users have asked you if you are saved, if you are a Christian, what you believe, etc., etc. It appears that you question most of the basic teachings of the Holy Bible, and the evidence of Jesus in your heart or interest in Jesus is difficult to see. Only God sees and knows your heart, but you appear to be lost. This is not meant to be an insult. If you are lost, you may be in the right place and at the right time to change your life and accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour.  

You don't have to do this within the service, though.  Its unlikely they were doing so in Acts, since each congregation would only have had one or two copies of each book.  I'm not trying to suggest for one moment that you shouldn't check against scripture, just that not everyone is going to in a Catholic service where the homily is maybe 10 mins long and probably only relys on one or two brief passages that may well be quoted near the beginning.

All I meant was, most modern bibles either use "born from above" or acknowledge that it is a valid translation.  eg. The NIV interlinear has "born from above" in the literal part, but then uses "born again" in the text for some reason.

Nope, you sure don't have too!  And in many cases, I wait to search until later, but not all cases.  I have, in fact, done quite a bit of page turning in the service, either to support something said, or to settle for myself if what was said was incorrect.

Here's a point of clarification as well, the Catholic homily of 10 minutes may not be an in depth study, or rather as in depth a message as you will find in a church like mine.  That is, when we gather around the word, it isn't to feel good, or get a tidbit of good news.  Sometimes, many times, our proverbial toes are stepped on.  Many times our view of God is increased as His word is explained to us with deeper investigation - explanations that require us to verify their validity.  The sermons at my church tend to be centered on scripture.  They are not just around the word, or applied via the word, but scripturally exegetical.  It is in these times of in depth study that I am challenged in my own personal study time.  That's not, btw, a cut on Catholics.  I've known many Baptists who can preach for hours from one verse, read one time and never returned to, that have absolutely nothing to do with the verse read!  This deeper approach to sermon giving isn't indicative of just Baptists.  I've seen it in Presbyterian circles, Non-denoms, and other groups as well.

Probably not.  The homily in a Catholic service isn't the "focus" of the service in the way it is in many protestant services.  I'm not saying one is better or worse - just different.


A good sermon in either tradition should be one that gets you thinking.  That might be through an hour and a half's indepth look at something, or it might be a really insightful or challenging 5 mins.  People learn when they are made to think.

I couldn't imagine sunday only containing 5-10 of the word.  What all else are people doing.  It is the LORD's day meant to be spent praising Him and learning from His Word.  It's not a touchy feely thing nor a hhhmmm that was interesting.  It should almost always step on your toes because that's what the word of God does.

I'm not sure I'm qualified to give a precise outline of an RCC service, but as well as the homily you're going to have hymns, probably 3 readings (one each from OT, Epistles & Gospels), probably a psalm or part of a psalm, Communion, intercesory prayers, other ancient hymns of praise such as the Gloria, and of repentance such as the Agnus Die, the Nicene Creed, etc  (not in that order).


Was anyone advocating that?

It doesn't have to be long to be challenging.

If you read a bit further down the 1st page, you'll find that the link was, infact, spurious.

Yeah, it was spam, nothing to do with Christianity in any ways. Some people just turned it into the Reformation Part 2. And you thought Catholics and Protestants only fought in Irelend. ;D

Thanks. I thought maybe it was censorship where censorship doesn't belong.

;D     Too bad it didn't become, back to the Bible and what does God say on the matter!   ;)

Thanks for letting me know.

lol, I think both admin and BEP support the anti-Catholic side of this. Don't tell me what the Trolls have been saying are getting to you... :-\

No, I have never cared for censorship and people deciding for me what can be had and what can't. Sometimes accidently and unknown to them; the trolls would say something half way intelligent.   ;)

Oklahoma Howdy to Tibby,

Why would you say something like this? I'm not a Catholic, but I haven't posted any inflammatory or anti-Catholic messages. I'm positive that ADMIN is a Christian, but I have no idea what church he belongs to. It's not material to the accusation you made since ADMIN hasn't posted any anti-Catholic messages either.

Tibby, I have no desire to make any anti-Catholic remarks, but if I did, I wouldn't need you to put words in my mouth or try to guess what I was thinking. In other words, I'll speak for myself. Your comment was uncalled for and improper.

First, I don't know what was on the link, but ADMIN deleted it.

Oklahoma Howdy to Ollie,

ADMIN deleted the link and ADMIN makes the rules. You might want to read the forum rules. Improper messages and links will either be edited or deleted. This is a Christian forum and the rules of ADMIN are not subject to debate.

Ollie, people don't come here to see garbage, filth, satan worship, etc., etc.,, etc. If you want to see this type of stuff, send me a private message with your email, and I'll give you directions to find all the filth you can stand, enough for several lifetimes.

Sorry, I didn’t mean to put it like that, and shouldn‘t have. What I meant was, I believe you are both Protestant, and would be less inclined to censor a link attacking the Pope then, say, a Roman Catholic. I’m sorry, I didn’t mean  to upset you. I just typed it for lack of a better word. I apologizes. I’ve never thought you are Admin where “anti-catholic” at all.

Oklahoma Howdy to Tibby,

I am one of those people who don't like men's tags, labels, and denominations. Using very strict dictionary terms, anyone who isn't a Catholic would be a Protestant, but from whose perspective? Is a Hindu also a Protestant? My church has an address for a name, and we are considered to be non-denominational. If we were forced to use a name, it would probably have some Biblical significance, maybe something like Grace Bible Chapel. We don't feel like we're protesting (Protestant) anything other than lost souls needing Jesus, the hungry needing food, the naked needing clothing, the sick needing medicine, etc.

I have brothers and sisters in Christ who attend the Catholic Church and many other churches. If a person is a member of the CHURCH NOT BUILT BY HUMAN HANDS, the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST, does it make a difference what name was over the door of the physical church building? Would Christ care if the sign said Baptist, Pentecostal, Catholic, Non-Denominational, etc., etc., etc.? When we spend eternity together with Christ, will we still be divided and wearing our labels?

The length and depth of man's vanity is responsible for an infinite number of divisions in God's children, even within their own churches. It's so ridiculous that it almost sounds like a comedy. We'd might as well laugh at ourselves because we are pretty funny. I'm thinking about a church in my city with a congregation of about 300. I'll call it the "G" church and leave out the denomination. (True Story) There was a disagreement that split the church. About half of the congregation purchased land across the street and built a church they called the "Greater G" church. They have no fellowship, and the police have been called numerous times on Sunday to keep members of the two congregations from fighting. There are a ton of sweet children of God in both churches, and I love them dearly --------BUT THEY ARE SILLY! I think we are all pretty silly from time to time, certainly myself included. Some folks might want to fight about what color to paint the church, long before they get to the teachings of the Holy Bible.

If we are both saved and will spend eternity together, how should we handle disagreements in this short life? I can tell you that I'm guilty of not handling it right in the past. I think we can all do better, and I want to be first in line to admit my guilt and say I want to do better.

In Christ,
Tom

"...for where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not carnal?"

Amen

Yeah, I understand. I know that would hurt you. Like I said in the PM, I was in a rush, and “anti-Catholic” was all I would think of. But, that being the case, I shouldn’t have posted it. I’m sorry.

The Labels are for man. I personally think it helps us understand things. We with our western mind, like to categorize everything, to make it simpler to understand. I guess it is easier for us. I don't think there is anythign wrong with labels, as long as you don't let the label tell you who you are!

I am not into filth and garbage of the world. If you have read my posts you should know this by now.

I did not realize the post was trash and probably should have read further down.
I read the forum rules when I came on over a year ago.
A refresher is always good. I understand the deletion of the link now thanks to Ebia,Tibby, and reading more of the other posts.

I am somewhat dismayed that you would give any one directions to filth and garbage so easily. I pray that was a thought in haste.

Oklahoma Howdy to Ollie,

You posted three messages complaining about deleted links, censorship, etc. You either want to see the garbage and filth or you don't, but you won't see it here. Your repetition of the same thought indicated you do want to see this sort of thing.

It now appears that you can't make up your mind. No, I wasn't kidding, I'll give you the directions so you won't have to search for that information on Christians Unite. Further, I hope you don't see any of this garbage on Christians Unite.

Here you go: Google Search -

Internet infidel
infidel + forum or + chat, etc.
Christian bashing
Satan worship
atheist + forum or + chat, etc.
Bible + myth or + bashing or + bunk

Use your imagination. I doubt you will find much censorship, editing, or deleting on these sites. Stop in and tell them you are a Christian and don't appreciate censorship. UM??, sounds silly, doesn't it?

Ollie, I would hope you don't want to see this type of garbage. Regardless, you won't see it long here before it is edited or deleted. Yes, it will be censored here.

In Christ,
Tom

"I am not into filth and garbage of the world. If you have read my posts you should know this by now.

I did not realize the post was trash and probably should have read further down.
I read the forum rules when I came on over a year ago.
A refresher is always good. I understand the deletion of the link now thanks to Ebia,Tibby, and reading more of the other posts.

I am somewhat dismayed that you would give any one directions to filth and garbage so easily. I pray that was a thought in haste."

It appears you are ready and willing to lead people to the ways of Satan from the looks of your last post.
This makes for great sorrow that one who confesses Christ would direct another soul to the adversary and away from the Savior of all.

God Bless you!

Come on guys, this is  pointless. Shake hands and make-up.  :-\

Ollie,

Peace. Maybe you understand now why some messages are edited, deleted, or censored on Christians Unite. It's easy to find the adversary of Christ, but hopefully not on Christians Unite. That's why I check every link I see. That's also one of the reasons for the moderator button. We all work together to keep that garbage and filth off of Christians Unite.

In Christ,
Tom

Yes, by all means , peace and also love. I did not know at first that it was deleted by ADM. I thought the author might have done it and I did not realize the nature of the post  except what it claimed and without the link it was impossible to reply to it intelligently.

I overreacted and apologize for creating this ruckus over it.
I understand what a moderator must do and I myself have turned over some rank postings by pushing the button.

However I still donot believe that people should be directed to garbage and filth sites when they do object to censorship not knowing the facts of the original post.

We will not lead any one to Christ with this example of conduct by offering trash instead of Christ.


In His love,
Ollie

There is nothing to make up.

Thanks for your caring that we should.  

How true

"Churches are simply buildings where people can go and worship Christ together."

Not true.

2Co., 6:16, "For we are the temple of the living God." Do you disagree with this?

Oh No, just the simple mistake that we all make at times that the church is a "building". When in actuality our physical buildings are a place of assembly or gathering for the church.

Ollie

Bless you my son