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could this imply that not all believers will be taken through rapture, but some will remain (vs 10) as witnesses and martyrs?

8 "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:

   9 'I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

   10 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
   11 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'


My first thought was that this is referring to Jews, but I really can not be too sure. Sorry not much help. :'(

I too am leaning that way, that this applies to the Jewish people. However not all of those ministered to in the middle east were of Jewish decent, but I know that the Lord said "Jews" and "synagogues" so this is probably a good sign that it is a Jewish reference........

I do tend to read into things a bit too much at times ;D

I don't believe any true believer in Christ will be left at the rapture.  There will however be an enormous revival during the tribulation period.   John speaks of an number which could not be counted that will come out of the tribulation.


When believers vanish, Churches will fill to overflowing.  Also note:

 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.


Why not, let the Church who has an ear hear what the spirit says?  See what I mean?   Not that Jesus isn't addressing all believers in these passages, but its worded in such a way to include ANYONE who has an ear, to listen to what the Spirit is saying.   Just some food for thought.

good food too ;D

I find it difficult even when the Lord is addressing a specific church, to differentiate between the message for them as compared to the message for us all.

I think there is no difference since there is a lesson for us all in everything the Lord has said........no matter who he said it to......this is where I get confused. ::)

I don't think this passage is reffering to the Jews, I think it is referring to Christians, this is one of the first churches in early Christianity, so that leads me to believe that it would be Christians.

This is partioally the trouble I have.

Chirst came, died, and rose. Those that believe this are saved.

No differenciation between gentile or Jew. None of us get to Heaven without Jesus.

OK

I guess, same question posed...........will some believers remain.....or is this simply "the reminant" that will spark revival and belief during the Trib.?

This is a subject that Christians have struggled with for many, many years even to the point of causing serious division. (I'm positive that won't happen here as we have some wonderful Christians that realise this. )

Let's take a look at who those in the original church of Smyrna were. Going by the geographical location and the given population of the time it is thought that most were Jews. However we know that not all those saved there were necessarily Jews because there were other nationalities there also that did come to the Lord. We do know that the church of Smyrna was considered to be very faithful even though they were persecuted by many, especially the stout Jews that did not accept Jesus as the Messiah. They were also a very poor people worldly wise because they were considered outcasts and were not to be dealt with financially. They had to survive amongst themselves, because the Jews were not allowed to by or sell with them. Yet through all these trials and tribulations Christians in this area held on to their love of and for Jesus more than any other area of Asia.

I will leave this thought with what we are told in the Bible:

Rev 2:11  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

I think we are all on the right track here.


The spirit is speaking to these churches in these passages.   They are specifically named, and each one receives different instructions.  So its clear that the spirit is speaking to those who can and are willing to hear Him in those Churches (believers!)


If we look over in 13:9, (later on) its the same phrase, but the addressee is not any specific church....

Rev 13:9  If any man have an ear, let him hear.

There is no mention made here of any specific Church, or any individual group of believers, only those who are dwelling on earth.  This is speaking to anyone and everyone who has an ear and is willing to listen.



To fully understand the structure of Revelation, you first MUST understand the keys Jesus gave, and view each part within the context of those keys.



First...

Rev 1:11  saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."

So here are Johns instructions pertaining to these specific 7 Churches. 



Now for the KEYS...

Rev 1:19  "Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.

3 categories.  Things John had just seen, things which are present, and things that are future yet.   Each part of revelation falls into one of these three categories.

For eg.

Rev 4:1  After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things."


Now he points to future events.   


While its a very difficult book to understand, keeping the KEYS for context in mind will help you understand a little better what, whom, and when is being addressed.


So the Churches, going by this, would have been "things that are" in Johns time, because he was instructed to send letters to them.    No question there is a spiritual layer in each letter that applies to us today, but thats a whole different thread.


Blessings!

There is no reason to believe that anyone who has their faith in Christ will be left when Christ returns.

note:


1Th 4:16  For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17  Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.


Then we who are alive (in Christ, just as those who were dead in Christ).    So whatever your status, living or dead, if you are in Christ, you are included here.


There will be many who come to Christ after the rapture...so yes there will be believers who are on earth during the tribulation, but it wont be because they were left.   It will be because they choose to believe in Christ at that time.   OR you might even say, they choose to "hear what the spirit says".   ;)

Blessings!

I normally don't like getting into discussions such as this because of the differences that do come out, especially as to when the rapture will take place. I used to get into them hot and heavy until I realised the major message that was being taught. "Fear not" and "be thou faithful unto death".

The story of Moses and the Pharoah comes to mind. God sent many plagues on the land yet he showed us that those whose doors were covered by the blood of the lamb, even though they were physically present, did not suffer from these plagues. The Apostles suffered from persecutions even to the point of being killed all for the glory of God. So whether we are or are not here during the tribulation is not the point, the point is to remain strong in Him and our rewards in the end will all be well worth whatever we may have to go through.

Amen PR, there are some things that are either not clarified or revealed to us in the Bible. The most important thing we must do is keep our eyes focused on the Lord, and leave the rest to God. It is His perfect plan, and His perfect will is what will be done.

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Calm down guys.

My point was not related to when the rapture happens, but rather, whenever that happens ALL believers will be taken at THAT time.


Many know I hold a pre-trib view, but it was not my intent to argue that point.   Either we ALL go when it happens (whenever that is), or not...no believer is left behind.   Agreed?



I have no problem discussing rapture timing either, but I too know its a source of great division.   At the same time, this particular forum/area was created to discuss items which could get heated, provided rules are followed.   I don't see where anyone has come close to crossing those lines, or even causing any division as it were.   Maybe I'm missing something here?   I thought we were just comparing scripture and discussing in a loving manner who was being addressed in Revelation where it talks about the specific churches.  :-\    ???


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Sorry brother. I didn't mean to sound like I was coming down on you or anyone else for any reason. I only intended to discuss my reasons for what I see the message as saying. Yes I agree that when we are raptured that we all do go together at the same time.

That was the base of the question, not when, but how many ;D

All believer in Christ, will be taken. But then this is my own opinion. :D

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud cry of summons, with the shout of an archangel, and with the blast of the trumpet of God. And those who have departed this life in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we, the living ones who remain [on the earth], shall simultaneously be caught up along with [the resurrected dead] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so always (through the eternity of the eternities) we shall be with the Lord!

Brother, I must admit that I am probably somewhat hyper sensitive whenever rapture hints come up as well.  I didn't want to sound like I was blasting anyone either, and after my post I had to stop and check with the boss (Jesus) as to whether or not I was out of line there.   I certainly hope I didn't come across as "having a fit"  :-[   If I did I'm sorry too!


I will say that many times, not only on this forum, but others as well, I am keenly aware of walking on egg shells as it relates to the rapture or end times discussions.   It is truly exhausting trying not to step on someones toes in this regard, thus my hyper-sensitivity  :P   :D

Love in Christ!

question answered Brothers ;D

Didn't mean to start anything ;D..........I could have been a bit more specific about the question, would have made the answer easier

Just a slight misunderstanding, nothing started brother but a good Bible study. Next time I'll make sure not to try typing when I'm being distracted by so much noise.   ;D ;D ;D ;D

I take some blame here too PR!  Rookieupgrade you did nothing wrong, and didn't start anything.  Like PR says, I think it was just slight misunderstanding.  Some of the verses I used to explain your question are very commonly used to relate to rature timing.   

My apologies PR and Air, you two know I love you both!   


Now, where did I put my prozac?  lol

Check in your dresser drawer. ;D ;D

No appology needed Brother.  :D

Amen, sister, I agree. No need for an apology 2T. Such things happen amongst family. The wonderful thing about it is that through love we can all get through it.

Amen. And one day soon we will all have allof our questions answered by our Master Himself.  :D

Y'all know what really funny? Y'all was saying the same thing, differently.  :)

 ;)

LOL

You know I love using graphics so....



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Brothers and Sisters,

This really looks like a pretty nice discussion among Brothers and Sisters in Christ. I saw something in this thread that I really liked: concern about the feelings of others. All kinds of discussions can be enjoyed by Christians when this is a concern, even when there are many varying opinions. I like to think about this concern as seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, and the LIGHT is JESUS CHRIST.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 John 1:3 NASB  what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

The only "synagogue" I know of that claim to be Jews and are not are the Mormons.
D&C 52:2
  2 Saying: I, the Lord, will make known unto you what I will that ye shall do from this time until the next conference, which shall be held in Missouri, upon the aland which I will bconsecrate unto my people, which are a cremnant of Jacob, and those who are heirs according to the dcovenant.

As to the debate of weather this passage in Rev. referres to present or future, Mormonism has existed since Gen. 3, under different aliases. IMO

I think what needs to be understood here is that these are not Churches in history per say,rather they are types of churches in this time with the difference being in what is taught in each one.

I feel the message is in why Christ found no fault with two of the churches,read the deeper meaning,which I feel is why did Christ find no fault in these two in particular,what did they teach or knew that the other 5 did not.


While Im here I have a question it may be a tad off topic but here goes.

Why do most every one seperate the Jews from the Church? Is'nt the Church a many membered body of believers regardless of race or culture,did not Christ die on the cross so that ALL could be grafted into that body? Just curious and sry bout going off topic.

Hello Truthbtold, and welcome to Christian Unite forum.

Yes the 7 churches, Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea.  These Churches are a part of the past.  Though it is possible to see, how they can relate to today. 

These Churches are in Turkey, - Smyrna, Philadelphia, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardes, Laodicea, and Ephesus.  If you would like to know, what cities these are in let me know.

Hello truthbtold,

The vast majority of Israel rejected JESUS CHRIST as KING, MESSIAH, and Lord and Saviour. They still do, so talking about them differently than the BODY OF CHRIST has nothing to do with race, ethnicity, or religion. It's also important to note that GOD deals with Israel separately from the BODY OF CHRIST. GOD is not through dealing with Israel, and HE has promises yet to keep with Israel.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Hebrews 4:16 NASB  Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

There is one major thing wrong with your teachings in this post and it is one that all Murrayites tend to ignore completely. This one thing makes all the rest of what is said null and void.


Gen 4:1  And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.


Because they throw this verse out they then misconstrue the meaning of Gen 3:15 and build more lies upon lies as they go further through this entire load of garbage.

Another problem with this teaching is the assumption that Cain's lineage survived the flood. In order to get around this the Murrayites claim that Noah's wife was a descended from Cain. The Bible does not say who Noah's wife was. In order to come to this conclusion they had to use the very same book that is called "a corruption of God’s Old Testament" by them. All of a sudden this book is considered an excellant source for the truth when it becomes necessary to validate their erroneous beliefs. On this same thought if this were true then the lineage of Jesus Christ just became tainted with the lineage of Satan.

I seriously suggest that you get away from the teachings of this doctrine of man and turn to the teachings of God.

Pastor Roger

That study was not intended to be on cains fatherbut Israel,regardless of wheather you agree with the serpent seed doctrine you cant deny the study on israel and the Jews


but since you mentioned it here is seed from the strongs

1) seed, sowing, offspring

a) a sowing

b) seed

c) semen virile

d) offspring, descendants, posterity, children

e) of moral quality

1) a practitioner of righteousness (fig.)

f) sowing time (by meton)

In Genesis 3:15 God is speaking to the serpent, "and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shall bruise his heel." The bruising of the heel took place when Christ was nailed to the Cross. And finally, for those who still want further proof as to who the serpent really is; we read in Revelation 12:9, "and the great Dragon was cast out, that old Serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world." Now can anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear have any doubt or confusion about Satan's own seed?


Think I will stay with my belief which I feel is clearly from the Bible,but thanks for your concern

This teaching is blasphemy at best and no matter how you look at it nor how much they deny it, it is in fact anti-semitism because this teaching makes these people non-jews and attempts to make them the physical children of satan.


Yes I do have eyes and ears that tell me when there is a false teaching.

The entire point of this study is based on who Cain's father is and therefore who the physical children of satan is.

truthbtold,

You are most welcome to believe whatever you want to, BUT you WILL NOT be teaching or preaching the GARBAGE here. I hope this is blunt enough for you to understand. Blasphemy is not permitted here. You've already been given the only warnings on this subject that you will receive. You will be banned with no further notice on the next violation. You are most welcome to stay and learn. You are NOT welcome to teach or preach this GARBAGE here.

If you have eyes to see, they have seen blasphemy. If you have ears to hear, they have heard the devil. END OF STORY!

I have specifically shown in a post above (post #33) how and why this teaching that tbt wants to continue with is blasphemy. This teaching will not be given here debate section or not it is against the forum rules.

To expound on this some more to make it more simply understood. The lineage of Jesus Christ is given several times in the New Testament. It is given there to show 1. ) His royalty, to show 2. ) that His humanity and to show 3. ) that He was the perfect sacrifice for our sins. This lineage does not include the seed of satan . To indicate such leasons the diety and perfection of Jesus. For this reason the teaching of "the seed of satan" (satans offspring) is a blasphemous and is definitely against the teachings of the Bible.
 

This thread is locked!


Any attempt to further post such garbage will also be deleted and may result in that user being banned.