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American Muslims angry at US stance on Mideast conflict

by Laurence Thomann Mon Jul 17, 7:48 PM ET

WASHINGTON (AFP) - American Muslims chafe at the US government's hands-off approach to Israeli reprisals and worry about countless relatives and friends trapped by violence in Lebanon.
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US officials say
Israel "has the right to defend itself," since its incursion into Gaza three weeks ago and air raids on Lebanon, but
President George W. Bush's stance offends Americans who are Muslims or of Arab descent.

Early last week, a coalition of 11 major Muslim organizations publicly called on Bush to forcefully condemn the attacks on Gaza and to designate as "war crimes" the destruction of Palestinian civilian infrastructure.

After the Israeli bombing of Lebanon, the appeals for denouncing Israel have multiplied.

"Once again America's image and interests worldwide are being harmed by one-sided support for Israeli actions," said Ibrahim Hooper, spokesman for CAIR, the Council on American-Islamic Relations, the largest US Muslim rights group.

"We're urging Muslims in America and other people of conscience to contact their elected officials to tell them that we have to have balanced foreign policy for the Middle East, one that is driven by American interests, not Israeli interests."

American Islamic Congress director Zainab Al-Suwaij had an even more immediate goal, urging the US to actively lobby for an end to violence.

"The policy for the US should be stopping the violence, period, and starting to solve the problem through negotiations."

The American Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee announced a rally outside the White House Tuesday to "protest Israeli military action in Lebanon and Gaza."

The committee, founded in 1980 by former US senator of Arab descent James Abourezk, calls itself the largest Arab civil rights group in the United States.

And on Wednesday, leaders of Arab-American communities around the United States plan to meet in Washington to discuss the crisis in the Mideast.

The plight of an estimated 25,000 US citizens in Lebanon, many of whom are dual nationals, has injected a sense of urgency to the gathering.

The Arab American Institute, which says it represents the policy and community interests of US Arab Americans, said 40 percent of the 3.5 million Arab-Americans are of Lebanese descent.

The institute has posted on its website photographs of Arab-American vacationers, children and visitors trapped in Lebanon by the fighting.

"In many cases (there is) no way for them to leave, even if a plan were to be developed, they can't go from one part of the country to the other to get out," said James Zogby, president of the Arab American Institute.

The United States has chartered a cruise ship for evacuations that can carry 750 passengers on each five-hour voyage between Lebanon and Cyprus, beginning Tuesday under protection of a US destroyer.

US helicopters flew 64 Americans from Beirut over the past two days, according to the military, without specifying whether they were embassy personnel, dual nationals or tourists.

Janah El Horr, a 24-year-old Lebanese who has been living in the US for three years, said she had been optimistic about Lebanon's prospects after the end of the country's devastating civil war in 1990.

"We were all happy with how (much) the country was able to achieve -- and in such a short time after the (civil) war and how the Lebanese people always thrive and have the will to overcome their civil war," said Horr, who recently returned from a a visit to her native country.

"It brings chills all over to see what this country is going through, so much destruction and pain and being threatened with a new war," she said.

American Muslims angry at US stance on Mideast conflict (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060717/ts_alt_afp/mideastconflictus_060717234806;_ylt=AnuZdnL1P7ABOs3wdnfN6QgUvioA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl)

OR, anyone who will have sympathy for a bunch of terrorists who started a war with a series of unprovoked attacks. The only ones I know who might have sympathy for the terrorists is other terrorists. They got what they wanted and richly deserved.

Well excuse me for a moment of weakness.....................

They do have the right of religion.


Edited to add; I have to do this a little bit brother (clown around). All the crud I've read off the islamic news sites, would make you sick.  Most of it isn't worth posting.

 ;D   ;D   YES, we are probably in complete agreement about terrorists and a ton of other things. You know that I was simply trying to have a moment of levity in an upside-down, crazy world.

I have also been trying to keep up with the news around the world. The lunatics with fingers on the buttons of missile launchers want sympathy and understanding. AND, the comedy crew at the U.N. blames diplomacy or lack thereof. If diplomacy is the answer, it would have to be diplomacy designed to deal with rabid dogs. There's even a certain amount of irony here: one cuts the head off of a rabid dog and sends it off for testing. So, rabid dog diplomacy is in order.

Love In Christ,
Tom

AMEN brother AMEN!! Course you know how I feel Israel should deal with a rabid dog.

 ;D   ;D   ;D   ROFL!




(Small Print: I still wish they would give us real horses.   ;D )

a big AMEN to all above me....
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You know, I feel the same as you guys about this....It does really burn my bacon to see items such as this, but at the same time I have to admit, that I find myself feeling confused on how I am to respond as a Christian.   Don't get me wrong, I feel no sympathy for their cause or beliefs, and I know there is no way to compromise with these types.

I would like to hear from Pastor Roger on the following because I know he has done considerable study in this area.   In addition, I would like to hear how others are addressing this in their daily Christian walk.

I too have always believed that war is Just under the right circumstances.  Scripture shows a few times where Israel was to war with enemies.   Since we are commanded to love our enemies, how do we separate the two, or rightly divide the word on this issue as believers, as loving them, while at the same time defending our selves or nation from threats we all know so well in these days.  Know what I mean?   Someone posed this question to me, and I have to admit, I was unable to provide a sound biblical answer for my stance.   :-[   I know this has come before on the board, but thats been some time ago.



For those who are not familiar with me on the board, I'm not arguing either point here, just looking for sound Christian views and teachings on what I think is becoming an important topic for believers in our day and age.   I have a feeling this could be a great discussion if we can keep it from decending into a debate.



BTW mods, feel free to create a separate thread out of this if you think it better for discussion.


Blessings!

Brother Tim Jesus would have us love the sinner, but hate the sin.  This includes those caught in a cult, such as islamics.

I have always believed this too DW.   Still, I'm finding it difficult to separate this scripturally.   How do we love them and win a war at the same time?

2nd Timothy,

Brother, I think that any Christian who has ever been put into a position where human life might be taken have thought and prayed about this for weeks. First, we can look to the Old Testament to see how GOD many times dealt with evil and who HE used as instruments. Second, we can look at the Bible descriptions of rulers, authority, and rendering unto Caesar. These thoughts don't relieve the moral questions about war, but they are the beginning foundation to study this issue. We know that some of the mightiest warriors in history were God's children, both before and after the CROSS.

We are definitely talking about dealing with evil, though I know that innocent people are also being killed and injured. Can the question still heavily involve GOD'S Will? YES, I say that it does. We saw what happened when tyrants like Hitler and Stalin weren't stopped. I don't know the casualty figures for Stalin, but many estimates for WWII near 50 million people. People talk about Vietnam and how wrong America was in trying to fight that war, but 3 million people gave up their lives when we stopped trying.

NOW, we are talking about barbaric killers with a primary target of innocent people. It's anyone's guess what happens if we don't stop them or at least try to contain them. They want the worst weapons in existence, and they will use them for little or no reason if they get them. Are we still the tools of GOD to control, contain, or try to stop evil? In many ways, I think that's exactly what we are. Further, I thought exactly this way as a police officer for 25 years. I dreaded taking a human life, but I was prepared to do it. I give thanks that I never had to take a human life, but many of my fellow officers did, and many of my fellow officers were killed in their effort to serve.

All taking of human life is UGLY, but there are obviously times when there are very few choices. I must add that the wrong choice might result in the loss of many MORE lives, including innocents. In my mind, I know that the hearts of Christian warriors hurt, and they have to pray for guidance and strength. They put everything together from the Holy Bible and consider all along with their orders and their wishes to return home to their families. It is not an easy task, and this is one of the reasons why we need to pray for them every day. Vast majorities of our armed forces and police services are Christians. I would much rather have Christians in these positions than the lost, simply because they have wrestled with Godly life and death issues and they probably pray numerous times every day.

We know that Christian warriors can't even the scales between good and evil for every action that is taken, especially in war. In war, they might not even know where the bombs are falling - just their orders and a kill or be killed enemy. If the Christian warrior lives to the end of the day, he or she still wrestles with the thoughts of good and evil, duty, orders, mission, and why they are fighting. This is just one reason why we should support them IF WE SEND THEM. That one Christian can't possibly weigh all of the factors and live to the end of the day in a war, so even Christians make mistakes in wars. This is just one reason why war is so UGLY, BUT the failure to act might be hundreds or thousands of times worse.

Brother, I know that Pastor Roger will have much more to say on this issue, and his information will probably make a lot more sense.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 121:2 NASB  My help comes from the LORD, Who made heaven and earth.

I believe defending ourselves is not a problem but going to war just to conquer is  or going to war to impose our wil is a no no...  

in the old testatments they go war because God say so or as for David he inquired to the Lord first if he had to.

well in our time... we have to defend ourselves.

for what Israel do, i do not know. I hope they are on God side coz' just like the Israelites that went to the promise land after God said he will not go with them (before the 40 years in wilderness) well they will just loss....  

Love for sinners is not reason to keep quiet about sin. Instead it is a reason we should speak out against it.

Lev 19:17-18 You shall not hate your brother in your heart; but you shall surely rebuke your neighbor, lest you incur sin because of him. 18 You shall not take revenge or bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.

Love your neighbor as yourself, do not hate him. But this does not mean to keep quiet about his sins. It means rebuke him without seeking personal vengeance. We are not seeking to hurt the person, but to help him. Hate the sin, but love the sinner.

Prov 17:15 He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous are both an abomination [exceedingly disgusting and hateful] to the Lord.

We must hate sin if we are to avoid falling into its evil snare but we must see past the sin and see people around us as souls which are loved so much by Christ that He gave Himself for us all. The glitter of sin is always around us and if we do not learn to hate its stench we will be drawn into its grasp and soon be heading down the path which leads into the lake of fire.

In Matthew chapter 7 we are instructed not to judge anyone because in the way we judge we will be judged ourselves. We are to look beyond the things we perceive to be wrong and see the person and love them with the same Love Jesus has shown to us. We humans have a tendency to see faults in others while we think ourselves perfect and here Jesus is pointing out that we are a bad if not worse than the fault we are judging in someone else. If we build our faith upon Christ Jesus who is the rock of Salvation, we will withstand any storm which comes against us. However, if we build our faith upon the things of the world when the storms assail we will fall and our fall will be great and possibly eternal.

God loves mankind and He is love........ hang on to those truths. The Bible clearly teaches that God is love, as well as that God shows love.

1 John 4:8-9 He who does not love has not become acquainted with God [does not and never did know Him], for God is love. 9 In this the love of God was made manifest (displayed) where we are concerned: in that God sent His Son, the only begotten or unique [Son], into the world so that we might live through Him.

How exactly does that work? We hate sin by refusing to take part in it and by condemning it when we see it. Sin is not be hated, not excused or taken lightly. We love the sinner by being faithful in witnessing to them of the forgiveness that is available through Jesus Christ. A true act of love is treating someone with respect and kindness even though they know you do not approve of their lifestyle and/or choice. It is not loving to allow a person to remain stuck in sin. It is not hateful to tell a person they are in sin. In fact, the exact opposites are true.

2nd Timothy,

Brother, I just thought of some things that directly apply to your questions.

Who is the biggest provider of food, medical supplies, and humanitarian aid to our enemies?  We are.

Who tried for years with diplomacy and other things that never work with terrorists? We did.

Who will help them after it's all over? We will.

Just a few more thoughts.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 18:2 NASB  The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge; My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts brother....I had almost forgotten about your years as a police officer and that too falls right in line with my question.

And yes, I have viewed it pretty much as you describe.   But when I was asked directly, it caught me off guard is all.   We all know that Jesus died for all of us, even the low life's that take innocent lives.   I would be the first to jump into a situation to defend my family and or someone who was defenseless to someone like this.   But ever since this question was posed to me, I still have that nagging in the back of my mind....How do I love this person as Christ did, and still protect innocent life, especially if the only way is taking their life?   I don't like questions nagging me......lol 

Perhaps, the our role is two fold.   Law/Government/Nation vs. Individual Believers.   These two appear to be on different levels.  I know in Romans it speaks about yielding to the Kings and Authority, because those are put there by God for His purpose.   But I think perhaps as individuals we are in a different role so to speak.  Or maybe not  ???

Anyhow, somebody wake up PR..lol   I really would love to hear his thoughts on this.  I know he has posted a great in the past regarding this very thing.

Hi BLAD, this is another one thats difficult for me to get my head on straight about.  I believe scripturally we are to support Israel.  I want them to go in waste these terrorist, but at the same time, I know that their current persecution is brought on by their on-going unbelief.  Their suffering will be great during tribulation as God forces them to turn directly to Him when the whole world lines up against them and they have no where else to turn.

So again, I stand behind them completely, but at the same time, I know God is using this whole thing for a greater purpose.  Reminds me of where John takes the scroll and eats it....Its sweet, but bitter in his stomach.

:Edited for better clarity.

Okay brother, I have PM'ed PR.  ;D ;D ;D

Wake up Pastor...we need guidance!!!   :D

This may help you, in the mean time.........................

Fair warning, I will not debate this. Please feel free to express your thoughts, this is bacisally for 2T. If you feel you must debate my answer. Take it to the Theology, Debate section and start a thread. That is three doors down, from Prophecy - Current Events.

Thank you.
Bob
=========================================================

War, is justified according to biblical standard.

A key responsibility of the civil government is to protect its citizens from attack by wrongdoers. This involves punishing those who break the law. It also involves defending the nation from every external attacker, including nations, other groups of people or dangerous pests and diseases. All these responsibilities are encompassed in the power of the sword Romans 13:1-8. Therefore, pacifism is not a Christian option.

War is only justified for defense Romans 13:1-8. It should not be used to expand a nation's boundaries, or to take control of another nation, or to extract trade advantages. This is a fundamental principle. A nation should never need to establish military domination in another region or nation. This doctrine covers pre-emptive strikes which is when a country attacks an enemy who is about to attack.

The militia should be up made of volunteers. Anyone who is faint-hearted or afraid should not be forced to fight Deut 20:5-9. People who are at a critical stage in their lives should not be forced into military service. For example, men who have recently married, started building a house or started a business should be freed from service, because they would not be focused on the battle.

Only the civil government has authority to declare war. Individuals or companies do not have the authority to commit a nation to war. Any declaration of war must be in accordance with correct legal processes [/b]Deut 20:10[/b]

A Christian government should only declare war if it thinks it has a reasonable chance of success. Jesus said that before a king goes to war, he should sit down and consider whether he can match the army that is coming against him. If not he will send a delegation to ask for terms of peace Luke 14:31-32, even if this involves a loss of freedom. For Christians freedom is not an absolute value. It may be better to lose freedom to govern, than to lose a large number of lives in an unsuccessful defense. In fact, because Jesus has set us free, we cannot lose our freedom.

Forgive enemies once they are defeated. Jesus said, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do." Stephen said, "Lord, do not charge them with this sin." We should treat enemies as God has treated us for we were enemies of God before coming to Christ and He forgave us. Luke 23:34; Acts 7:60; Colossians 1:21-23

Those who persist in evil and refuse to live at peace are to be firmly dealt with in the Lord. We are not to sit back and do nothing or continually appease those who do evil. Psalm 109 We are not to be naive or pacifistic.

Always keep in mind that earthly wars have spiritual elements. Paul was inspired to write that our primary battle is not against flesh and blood people but against Satan and his minions and we should fight it as such. Ephesians 6:10-18

Good stuff DW....this is what I was looking for, thanks! 

Psalms 109 WOW! 

Brothers Tom and Bob gave some excellant insight on this. When we go to war with anyone we must not hate the person but rather the evil that they are doing, the evil within. The old saying hate the sin but not the sinner really does apply here. It is a difficult thing to do but one that we must accomplish for the sake of our own souls as well as theirs. This is a subject that I myself had to contend with before I could even think of joining the Military many years ago. A statement that I posted quite some time ago in response to pacifism might help to understand this a bit better.


______________


Pacifism or Christianity. Is There A Difference?

have been asked numerous times if it is right for a Christian to be a combat soldier, to kill in combat. In fact this is a question that I had to ask for myself before I decided to join the military. As always the Bible has the answer to our questions.

Nehemiah, a great prophet of God said, "Neh 4:14 And I looked, and rose up, and said unto the nobles, and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people, Be not ye afraid of them: remember the Lord, which is great and terrible, and fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses. "

Some Christians support the belief that as a Christian we are to be pacifists. Using scripture such as "Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." and " Luk 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. " to support their belief. They also stand by the belief that the New Testament teachings are of pacificism.

Pacifism is a non biblical position. Although being able to appeal to superficial arguments of conscience and quote the odd verse out of content - the whole spirit and thrust of pacifism is anti Christian. Pacifists may be sincere - but they are sincerely wrong.
A Christian, by definition, must be active - with his or her sleeves rolled up, being willing to get his hands dirty protecting the innocent, defending the defenceless and saving lives from unprovoked aggression. Christian love is not mere words and sentiments. True love shows itself in action. (1 John 3:18). If all the people with a conscience refuse to fight then it will leave the battle fields in the hands of men without a conscience.

Pacifism finds it's rots in HUMANISM. Despite some impressive but superficial Christian pretension, pacifism is humanism. In common with humanism, pacifism shares a false idea of man. It sees man as basically good. To the pacifist all people are just too good to kill. Neither rapists, murderers nor terrorists deserve to be stopped, in the view of the pacifist.
In contrast to this notion of people being basically good, the Bible teaches us that the heart of man is desperately wicked and deceitful;that they are quick to hurt and kill; they leave ruin and destruction wherever they go... everyone has sinned and is far away from God's saving presence. (Romans 3:15,23) Pacifists often display more concern for the aggressor than for the defender, more sympathy for the criminal than for his victim.

Our Lord Jesus may have been meek but He was never mild! His teaching was powerful, dynamic, direct and uncompromising. This tough carpenter from Nazareth was able to survive forty days fasting in the desert and forty lashes from the brutal Roman whip. He could walk hundreds of kilometers in the blazing heat of Palestine's inhospitable terrain and He could walk through a murderous mob with such a presence that no-one dared stop Him (Luke 4:28-30).
When Jesus saw how corrupt men were desecrating the temple with their money-grabbing greed, He made a whip, overturned their tables and drove them forcibly from God's House (Matthew 21:12-13).
Jesus told His disciples, "Luk 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

When Jesus returns to this world it will be as the conquering King of Kings and Lord of Lords. The Bible teaches us that the first time Jesus came as a Saviour - and all who turn from their sin and trust in Christ, following Him in obedience, are saved. But when Jesus comes again it will be as Judge - and all who have not repented and obeyed will be condemned and eternally punished. The Scripture warns us that when Jesus returns He will annihilate the forces of the false church and the Antichrist. We are told that rivers of blood will flow from the carnage of mankind's rebellion against Christ (Revelation 14:19-20).

"....... and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. (Revelation 19:11,15,16).


Pacifism also has an unrealistic view of society. The reality of this world is that it is a fallen world, inhabited by sinful mankind in rebellion against the Creator. Idealistic fantasies about a world of peace and Utopia without war are cruelly false and dangerously deceptive. In the Bible we are warned that those who say 'Peace! Peace!' when there is no peace are 'loathsome' false prophets (Jeremiah 6:!4; 8:11). Jesus warned us that 'wars and revolutions' would increase (Matthew 24:6,7; Luke 21:9,10). We are warned in the scriptures that 'While people are saying 'Peace and Safety', destruction will come on them suddenly.' (I Thessalonians 5:3)
'PEACE' seems to be the modern equivalent of Baal worship. There is an irrational worship of peace. This selfish materialistic age has made an idol out of peace. 'Peace at any price' inevitably leads to tyranny and destruction - the peace of a graveyard.
People say that war is hell - but often peace is worse. More people died in the peace following the revolution in CAMBODIA than died in the entire war before it. Three-milion Cambodians (40% of the population) were slaughtered by Pol Pot's Marxist Khmer Rouge in the 'peace' following 1975. In fact, more people have been tortured, maimed and massacred in times of peace than in times of war during this century!
Have we become so soft, decadent and self-seeking that we are no longer willing to risk our lives for anything? Is nothing worth fighting for? Do we have nothing worth defending? Do we care so little for others that we're unwilling to risk anything for their protection? Are we so engrossed in watching videos, in 'wine, women and song' that we can no longer tell the difference between right and wrong? Or don't we even care?
For centuries Christians have believed that there were worse things than war. For our ancestors death in battle was not the worst thing that could happen to them. An eternity in hell was. They did not fear death. They feared God. They realised that death for the Christian is not fatal. They had a clear belief in eternal life. Principles were more important then personal safety. Duty, honor, country, family and God meant more to them than selfish desires for peace and safety. And thank God for that because the faith and freedoms we enjoy were won and preserved by their blood, sweat and sacrifices.
The wise Christian does not seek to selfishly avoid the problems of this world, but courageously steps out in faith to be part of the solution. We should recognize that sinful man needs to be restrained by laws and by force, that liberty needs to be defended, that our freedoms came through, and often need to be maintained by hard fighting.
If all Christians became pacifists, would all non-Christians also become pacifists?
Not likely.

It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism - while the wolf remains of a different opinion. The Bible declares: 'Blessed are the peacemakers' - Matthew 5:9. NOT blessed are the pacifists! You have to make peace. It takes action. For the pacifists hoping for worldwide peace - Jesus said: 'Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.' (Matthew 10:34)

______________________

When evil resides within a people there is no dealing with them. In essence we would be dealing with the devil which we know that this does not work.


Eph 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.


___________________

Sorry I didn't respond to this sooner, I was a bit a sleep here.   :-[ :-[

Dw, I was just thinking the same thing as I read Brother Tim's question.   It is more than just sin... it is the Devil himself.. as far as the Islamics go... at least that is my opinion.  Where we are soldiers for Christ.. they are soldiers of Satan!
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Amen to all of the great words of wisdom.

PR stated the comment about us rolling up our sleeves and helping the innocent.  And that is where this conflict comes down to for many people.

There are many Americans confused as to who we are to support in this current conflict.  We can site that so and so bombed so and so first or all sorts of things of that nature.  However that can go back further than any of us have an accurate history of...thousands of years back there was conflict. 

You can also through in political and econimical aspects of things but then that is putting the humanistic attitude into the mix and that can more often than not be incorrect.  The best way to look at the current conflict is with the prayer.  Get down on your knees and pray to God that His will be done with what is going on over there.  And pray for both sides to find wisdom in God and find their salvation in God.  I know it considered overreaching to pray for an entire people to find salvation.  But do not pray that either side will win, but that they will come to terms with Jesus and His will prevail.  Pray to let Jesus shine in any involved directly or indirectly with what is going on and that His will be done.

I have no preference for a victor in the conflict except God.  The Islamists have substituted thier faith in Muhammed for that of God.  The Jews have ignored what God had told them of Jesus and will be dealt with during the Tribulation.  I only pray that if it is God's will that they fight it out that it stays confined to that region.  And that if soldiers are sent in, that they also be soldiers of Christ and are able to spread His word to the region.

Sincerely
Brother Jerry

Love is a big responsibility and a very large commitment.  The Lord has proved this in scripture over and over.  Love can never be confused with pacifism, which is beautifully stated in PR's post.  I learned my greatest lessons in life when the old man "took me out behind the woodshed."  If you knew my father you would think it impossible for that man to be angree and be a disciplinarian.  I was just plain stubborn at the time and was extremely disobedient, but I learned my lesson every time.  Now that I'm older I'm thankful that he LOVED me enough to set me straight in my ways.  It surely did hurt him more then it hurt me.  That is how I see the situation in Israel.  I will support them because of the Word of God, our Loving Father.  The Bible commands us to love our neighbors as we love ourselves, to love our enemies. It never says let them take our faith from us, and that is exactly what terrorism is trying to do.
Blessings!
-Am-

Great comments everyone!   PR great out line indeed!

Again I would like reiterate that I feel pretty much as you all do about this.  I had not tied Pacifism to Peace the way you outlined there, but perhaps that IS the underlying problem.   Let me expand on how this topic came up a little better.

The way the original question was posed to me was....

Jesus said to Love our enemies.   How do we go about keeping our Christian perspective within this verse and properly view war as correct.  It was not in regards to any particular war or political view, or even a debate, it was rather a discussion that came up amongst brothers trying to rightly divide the word in that regard.


Scripture reference.

Mat 5:43  Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;  


Also, the discussion touched on the possible differing roles that Nations/Governments might have, as opposed to Christian citizens or individuals.   i.e. Romans 13


In other words, if there was a Muslim in my neighborhood, as Christians we would most likely go out our way to show kindness to him, and share the Love of God with such an individual.   However, as a nation being attacked by a radical islamic nation, we would defend ourselves and take a different action, obviously because trying to share Gods love with those, would be fruitless, and allow evil to reign as it were.


The discussion also touched on Christ Himself waring with the nations (Revelation) in the end as a possible example.   Clearly God does not stop loving men at that stage, but rather (I think) He realizes that these men are no longer capable of responding to His Love having been given over to evil entirely, and must be destroyed.   Of course He is judge, so that changes the equation somewhat here.  But it did come up.


So, having some background here, let me pose the question again.   How do we as Christians love our enemy's (and do good to them), and when should it be determined that action by force (or war) is necessary?   AND, is it possible that there is a difference between an individual's role (you and me) in this, as opposed to Governments/Nations (USA/Afghanistan etc).


Think of the questions, not in context of an argument with a pacifist (although, maybe this IS crucial to the question), but rather, How should we as Christians address our thoughts and actions as believers in the current times we live in, and what Scripture do we stand on to guide our way.   


Blessings!

2nd Timothy,
I'm sorry brother, but for me could you provide a bit of clarification on How do we love our enemy's?  Are you speaking here of war or of someone in the neighborhood who is opposed to you?  Just curious.  Thanks brother!

No problem!   The discussion was based on where Christ instructed us to love our enemy's.   I brought up the idea in that discussion that it might be possible that individuals could have a differing role than that of nations.   Its sort of a broad area to discuss I know, but I guess what I am looking for is clarification on how WE as individual believers are to view BOTH neighborhood enemy's as well as national enemy's.  OR is there a difference at all?   

I see it as Christ stated it....we are to love our enemy's period....but when scripturally do we use force in either case?   Keep in mind before you answer that I do believe war and defense are indeed necessary as PR and everyone has described, I'm just trying to get a scriptural footing on the whole topic is all.  Make sense?

Let's take a closer look at the verses that you quoted.


Mat 5:43  Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;


Who is being spoken of here,"love thy neighbor". The original word used here plēsion means "near, close by, fellow countryman, Christian, neighbor". In Joh 4:5 this greek word was used to mean near when Jesus came near to a parcel of land at Sychar.


"hate thine enemy" is the word echthros that means "hateful, hostile, adversary, foe". This word is used frequently in regards to the enemies of Christ. In Romans it is used to describe those that are not followers of Christ.

Now let's set that line of thought to the side for a second.

Let's take a look at what John the Baptist told some Roman Soldiers.


Luk 3:14  And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.


"Do violence to no man" the original word here is diaseiō which means more correctly "to intimidate, to shake up".

Now let's go back to Mat 5 but this time to verse 39.

" whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also"

The word smite is the Greek word rhapizō which is the act of "slapping with an open palm". This was a widely used form of an insult and nothing more.

What I see here in both situations is the fair and equal treatment of all people nothing being said against using force to control an unruly person that tends to kill or maim someone. The Soldier was being told to treat all people with respect and not be a bully. Jesus was telling us how to treat others in a minor civil dispute.

For those that are law enforcement of Military this is not to say that they cannot do their job which may entail killing someone. For the one on one situation, neighbors, it does not mean that we cannot protect ourselves. Simply that we should not be easily offended by insults, do not be proud and to return such with a show of love. No where does Jesus teach against self defense. He does tells us not to take vengeance and to love others.

Amen PR

And to note there are several times that Jesus and the disciples came in contact with Roman centurians.  And not once did Jesus rebuke them for being soldiers and direct them to lay down their arms. 

Sincerely
Jerry

PR I agree with everything you pointed out in your well written post.  I still think that prehaps my question is not clear.   I too believe that war is acceptable, as is defense.  As a matter of fact, I did a word search on WAR in scripture, and didn't realize how many times it is used as acceptable, which even further confirms my initial gut feeling that a Just war is biblical.  However, I am more perplexed than ever with regards to separating Loving an enemy, and waring with him. 



Let me try to get to the meat of this if I can.



War under the right circumstances is Justified.   A just WAR!  I think we are all in agreement here.

We are also instructed in the key verse....Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you....[...]   Here again, I think we all understand this and agree.



My quandry!  Wanting to be correct on both counts, How do I do both?    Or simply stated, how do I rightly divide the word in this regard.    Maybe the answer is staring me in the face in a previous reply here, but I really am lost on this issue.    ???

HELP!...lol   :D

Morning brother.

Perhaps it is I that am not sure on just what you have been asking.

As I said I can't give you anymore verses on this than have already been given but let me explain how I have dealt with this. Maybe that will help. During Viet Nam many of the soldiers got to the point of truly hating their enemy and displayed it frequently no mercy shown. Even after the war you could see it and hear it from them. They would call them all sorts of names, tell those that came to the U.S. for asylim to leave the country, they weren't welcome here. This is not to say that all Soldiers were like that. Many of us understood what it is like to love our enemy even though we had to kill some of them. Those of us in this category did not kill just to because they were the enemy. It was use minimum force required to get the job done. Those that were captured were treated well by us. I saw one young Soldier give up his meal to feed a hungry captive. We fed, clothed and gave medical treatment to them, we didn't abuse them. Those of us that believed in God witnessed to them. I saw one of these captives accept Jesus as his Saviour. The last I heard of him he had become a minister and was working still in Viet Nam trying to win more souls. That is what Christian love is all about. It is fighting the evil that is in them.

Wow!  Now that hits the heart brother!    I do believe we are getting closer to home with my question here.   I believe that in the many places in scripture where God instructs Israel on how and when to war, there is a deeper spiritual layer I am missing.   I am sure that the many example given are in regards to our spiritual warfar with sin, AND bringing Glory to God even on the battle field.   I think the example you have given in your last post speaks volumes to this as well.

I suspect I am going to have to dig in, and do a deep study on this to walk away with the substance I am seeking.   


From one brother to another, may Gods blessings be rich in your life for living the walk, even during the horrors of war-time, and from a patriotic American, Thank you!, for risking your life for the freedoms I enjoy today friend.    I have not, nor will I even forget what you and thousands of other soldiers went through for us.


Love in Christ!

Thank you brother now I am the one that is touched.

I hope and pray that you find what you are looking for.

Brothers and Sisters,

This is an excellent and thought-provoking thread. It really should give everyone a glimpse of what any Christian serving in a capacity of life and death issues must deal with. The only thing that might have been lightly dealt with here is being subject to the rulers and those in authority over you. We have all volunteer military and police service in this part of the world right now. However, we did have drafts in the past on major conflicts. In the case of a draft, the conversation would include being forced into service where you would risk your life and probably take life. The vast majority of Christians drafted in the past served with great courage. Those who could not resolve the moral issues with GOD served in all kinds of capacities that also required great courage (i.e. medic, cook, etc.). These roles were mainly considered to be non-combat, but many of them were eventually in situations where they had a choice of kill or be killed.

I think it's almost a must to consider what happens if nobody stands in the way of individuals, groups, or forces determined to harm innocents and resist to the death anyone trying to stop them. Considering what is done to their victims raises another issue that is on the opposite side of the coin - how could we allow them to continue and not try to stop them? If you are already a volunteer or you are drafted into service by a lawful authority, you would also have the Biblical issue of disobeying the authority placed there by GOD. It really can boil down to something as simple as two basic situations: 1) what you will do or should do in the protection of your own home and family; 2) what you will do or should do if you are sent and/or ordered to go and protect someone else's homes and families.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 111:7-8 NASB  The works of His hands are truth and justice; All His precepts are sure.  They are upheld forever and ever; They are performed in truth and uprightness.

Amen Tom!   


I Came across this verse just doing simple word searches....(remember the song?)


Ecc 3:8  A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.


While this probably is speaking of the physical, I would say Spiritually speaking, we are most certainly in a time of war in this life as believers, with sin in our own lives, as well as snares and enemy's at every turn.  What a time of peace when we finally reach Home, and the war is won!!!

As I mentioned to PR, I think I'm going to have to dig in to get to the bottom of separating things.   Something that crossed my mind was the movie The End Of the Spear, where the missionaries refused to shoot the natives in self defense, knowing that those were not ready for heaven, thus sacrificing their own lives for the greater purpose of God, and the natives.   Granted, these missionaries felt strongly that God was with them, and felt led not to kill their attackers or defend themselves, dying in the process.  Of course Gods working through that entire true life story is absolutely incredible to me.    No question this is an outstanding testimony of how they were led by the Holy spirit in that particular situation not to defend themselves, which lead to their death, but also the salvation of an entire tribe.

Not that I believe this example nullifies a just war or self defense (because there is overwhelming evidence Just war is proper under the right circumstances), just that it highlights to me our pressing need to be able to hear and obey WHEN and HOW to proceed in every step of our lives, and different situations.  In some cases, God might lead us to fight fiercely, while in other cases, He might lead us to a more gentle approach to defuse tensions, and in some cases even martyrdom.   I'm still not totally clear on this, but I guess I will have to settle for this until I have more time to study it.

Outstanding converstation brothers!   When I get some time I will try to do some study on this so we can speak on it more.

Grace and Peace!

Brother, please keep us posted on your findings.  I'm enjoying this thread immensely.
Blessings!
-Am-

OK, I've been considering all this quite a bit.   Here's some items I've been going over.



I think once we begin to view all these things in light of our called purpose, the answer starts rising to the surface for some of things we have been discussing here.

What is our called purpose as believers?
What is an authority or nations purpose?
What is Gods will for us, and how do we stay within those confines with Godly principles at times of war, defense, and our called purpose?

Keep these 3 things in mind as we barely scratch the surface.


Mar 16:15  And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

This is our mission as believers!   Once we believe on Christ and are adopted into the family of God, we are commissioned to preach the Gospel to the ends of the world.  Once God achieves this mission through us, the Church will be going Home!


Paul says he was called for a purpose....

Rom 1:1  Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,
Rom 1:2  which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures,
Rom 1:3  concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh,
Rom 1:4  who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,
Rom 1:5  through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,
Rom 1:6  among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;


Not only Paul, but this group of Roman believers as well as us too.    Our calling as believers is to be set apart for the gospel of Christ.    First and foremost!




Now, what is the deal with nations and authority's?

Rom 13:1  Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.


Rom 13:3  For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;
Rom 13:4  for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.


OK.  So authority's and nations are not necessarily called to spread the Gospel as individual believers are.  They are a minister of God, or an avenger who brings wrath on those who practice evil.   Even though, they might not be a Godly nation, God Himself has set up ALL these authorities to serve His good purpose.  We must include authority's here who are evil as well if we take Rom 13:1 at face value.   Even though the likes of NK would be considered Evil, They still exist according this verse for Gods purpose of avenging evil, even though they do not follow their God given authority.   Clearly they are wrong and disobediant, and are suffering in that regard, and will probably suffer a great defeat if they continue to not serve Gods intended purpose.   Throughout the OT, we can see how God used nations who were obedient to Him to avenge and destroy evil nations.   God used Israel for this purpose a few times.   I don't doubt for one second that if NK's government would start behaving with Godly principles, God would bless that nation, and use them in the pretext of Romans 13.   As it stands right now however, they exist outside of this pretext and not only suffer from their own government, but will suffer from some other nation God will use to avenge them.   At least this is how I am seeing this.


So God sets up all authority's, and they can either follow Gods purpose for them, (to avenge evil, or those who practice evil within its borders), or they might themselves become corrupt and fall out of the purpose God set them up for - thus bringing wrath on themselves from another nation.   Making sense here?





Lets be very clear about what scripture says regarding war and defending innocence.


Exo 22:2  "If the thief is caught while breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there will be no bloodguiltiness on his account.


This hits right between the eyes doesn't it?   Jews had the right, as I believe we do, to defend ourselves even to the point of killing if necessary to defend ourselves, and will be held blameless.


Deu 19:10  "So innocent blood will not be shed in the midst of your land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance, and bloodguiltiness be on you.


Protection of innocence is called for.   In fact, Israel was told here if they did not defend innocence within their borders,  they would be found guilty of the innocent blood that was shed.   WOW!   Think about that regarding NK or Iraq!   So there is no way to say War is never justified.  And there is no way to say the defense of innocence within the border of a God placed Authority is wrong.


The question is, where do we as believers fit into this whole picture, and love our enemy's, yet distinguish the time and need for war and self defense?


Our first and foremost objective as believers is to preach the Gospel.   With regard to all these other circumstances mentioned above, it is our job to find Gods will and be used by Him in each case as He calls us to be used.   Just as PR described in his case.   He submitted to that God given authority over him as a soldier, YET Lived according to Gods calling on his individual life (sharing the Gospel to fellow soldiers and enemy's), and fulfilled Gods Will within the GOD GIVEN authority to the nation he submitted to and served as a combatant soldier.   Summerized, God used PR in the entire scope of indivual Believer's calling AND by serving the same Godly authority given his nation.   PR served God, PERIOD!  ;)

Same with Tom.  He was a believer who was a police officer.   His first role as believer preaching the Gospel to other officers as well as criminals, yet he was still in submission to Gods authority by being part of that minister who God uses to avenge evil and wrongdoing.  Serving GOD period!


You will note that Daniel, even though he was a wrongly held prisoner by a wicked nation, was still a good prisoner and fulfilled Gods will by preaching Gods word.   Even though he was captive, he served God within the confines Gods authority OVER him.    Where that authority stopped, was when it called for Daniel to pray to other gods.  He did not pray and worship other Gods as demanded, but kept true to His first calling, the highest Authority!   Obeying this one authority above all others.   So I see here that we can be soldiers and officers and even wrongly held prisoners provided we remain true to the highest authority above all.   When God is overruled by a wicked authority that strays from Gods calling for them, we must stay with the one true authority and live in accordance to Gods word.


I think the key here is being able to yield to Gods will under any circumstances. There might be a circumstance where God calls us to martyrdom, and uses our death for his purpose.   In principle, our life is HIS, to do with as HE pleases.  Our job is to find His specific purpose and fulfill it, whether that be as soldiers, officers, prisoners or martyrs.  Our mission is to be in HIS will, and serve His ultimate Authority.


This seems to me the only way to answer my original question.   I must love my enemy and do good to them who hate me, but if God leads my nation to war (by His authority), I can still serve His purpose as that nations citizen, AND an individual believers on the battle field by living Godly and staying in the center of His will and purpose for my life.   So its not written in stone when, where, how, to do both....but it is written in stone for us to yield to God and God alone.   When we submit to Him, AND obey, we can find HIS way in any of these circumstance and be used by God in any way He sees fit to use us, for His Glory and purpose.   


Thoughts?

By glory I think you have it brother.  ;) ;D ;D ;D

Hello 2nd Timothy,

YES, you do have it. I think there would be hundreds of examples, but I only want to mention one. For this example, you are NOT a soldier or a police officer, just a Christian citizen.

You see a young, strong man beating a helpless and elderly woman. I don't see a single moral issue that prevents you from helping her. As a matter of fact, I see the opposite - a moral issue if you don't help her. I'm not a young, strong man any longer, but I would put myself at risk in trying to help her. I think that I could at least get his attention with my cane, but I would have it in my mind that I would stop him or die trying.

Many of the situations in this increasingly evil world are much more complex than this example, especially when you consider that the terrorists of this world hide behind and among innocents. SO, it's a harder decision to make, but we have hosts of Christian soldiers and police officers put into this position every day. They are there with duty, orders, procedures, and methods that they gave solemn promises and oaths to do. I was never placed in a position where I unintentionally hurt or killed an innocent in my duty to stop the bad guy, but our soldiers have been. This would HURT, even in war, but the soldier would have to consider the consequence of not stopping the bad guy. FIRST, it might mean the loss of 10s or 100s of innocent lives instead of one. SECOND, it would be a violation of orders and duty. Please remember that I said unintentional. SO, now we have the problem of the terrorists hiding behind or among innocents. What do they wish to accomplish by using this tactic? They want to be untouchable and continue their terrorist acts. They don't have a conscience, BUT THEY KNOW THAT WE DO. Their primary targets are always innocents for the best shock and terror value. Out primary targets are the opposite, but they make sure that innocents fall if we try to stop them. I actually wonder how many of the innocents are being held hostage for this very purpose. WHY? - to stop us from stopping them. War is UGLY and it hurts those with a conscience the worst. The BIGGEST question remains: what happens if we don't stop them?

Love In Christ,
Tom

Galatians 4:4-6 NASB  But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

Indeed!