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Title: More ministers say they have a direct line to God Post by: Shammu on July 10, 2006, 04:51:22 PM More ministers say they have a direct line to God
Claims are nothing new, but recent examples stand out 12:12 PM CDT on Saturday, July 8, 2006 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution/ New York Times News Service ATLANTA -- “God told me ...” The Bible says God speaks in a “still, small voice,” but that voice no longer seems to be still or small if you listen to contemporary pastors. The phrase “God told me” is becoming one of their favorite expressions. So many seem to be on speaking terms with God. Turn on the TV or the radio, and one will inevitably encounter a preacher flashing what one pastor calls the “God trump card.” It signals that the holder is the recipient of a steady stream of revelations from God on matters big and small. It's invoked so often that few question it, but two recent examples stand out. In May, the Rev. O'Neal Dozier, pastor of Worldwide Christian Center in Pompano Beach, Fla., told an audience that Jesus had appeared to him in a dream and told him that the next governor of that state would be a Republican. In March, spiritual guru Neale Donald Walsch published “Home With God” and announced that it would be the final chapter in his best-selling “Conversations With God” trilogy, in which he claims to talk to the Almighty. Last November, J. Lee Grady, editor of Charisma magazine, wrote a column complaining about pastors taking their revelations too far. He cited one charismatic pastor who told his congregation that a new revelation from the Bible allowed him to have more than one wife. Another said his “anointing” allowed him to have more than one sexual partner. Ruth Tucker, author of “God Talk,” says pastors - and ordinary people - often confuse God's voice with their own. “The voice of God often corresponds with something they very much want to hear,” Tucker says. “Biblically, God speaks, but God breaks through in a monumental way that's far beyond giving comfort or advice to any person's plan or agenda.” Claims of personal encounters with God are nothing new. Christian, Jewish and Muslim traditions are filled with inspiring stories about God communicating with people. People of faith often talk about hearing God's voice in a dramatic situation or being led by an inner voice or a divine sign. But what happens when revelation becomes routine? What happens when some preachers talk about God as if they have his cellphone number? God lets them know who to vote for, what sermon to preach and when to start a new building program. That practice trivializes God, some scholars and preachers say. It also contradicts what history's greatest prophets and mystics say about hearing from God. Take the Hebrew prophets, for example. They don't describe having casual conversations with God. They recall being terrified by God. Isaiah called himself a “ruined” man after he heard God's voice. Ezekiel was “stunned” and immobilized for seven days after his encounter. Ancient Hebrews thought they would die if they even saw God's face or said his name aloud. Karen Armstrong, a former Catholic nun who's become a best-selling author about Christianity, Judaism and Islam, says these prophets were shaken because they were confronted by “the experience of transcendence.” “What they were saying is that what we call God, we can't even talk about,” she says. “It is indescribable, ineffable. The only reverent attitude is silence.” Pastors who invoke a chatty God run several other risks. Tucker, author of “God Talk,” says the practice misrepresents what we call God. She says many modern people can't conceive of a God of silence and mystery, so they fashion a glib God who becomes just another voice in our busy sonic landscape, along with the TV, the radio, the iPod. “People have become pals with God like you would with a cellphone partner you have to keep in touch with every half-hour,” Tucker says. “Some people are wondering if - in a talkative world where we have to hear voices all the time - this is how we are also treating God.” A preacher who claims to hear often from God can use that to manipulate their congregation. The Rev. James Merritt, the former president of the Southern Baptist Convention, says the claim, which he calls the “God trump card,” can squelch debate. It's easier to criticize someone's reasoning than their experience. “If God told you to do something, what can I do? I can't contradict God,” says Merritt, pastor of Cross Pointe Church in Duluth. “You played the 'God trump card.'?” A preacher's claim to be a special source of revelations is dangerous in other ways. It contradicts Jewish and Christian scripture, says Thomas Long, an author and authority on preaching at Emory University's Candler School of Theology. Citing a well-known Old Testament passage from the book of Joel that quotes God as saying, “I will pour out my Spirit on all people,” Long says: “I don't think its theologically congruent with the Jewish and Christian understanding of community in which the Spirit falls on everybody.” Claiming to have God's cellphone number also can lead to self-promotion. When, for example, was the last time someone heard a pastor say that God called him or her to take a smaller salary or move to a smaller church? Long says he's heard it but says it's rare among preachers who routinely hear from God. “God rarely puts us on the down escalator,” Long says. Claims of speaking to God also can ripen into bizarre, even pathological leadership. The Rev. Jim Jones and the bodies of his followers covering a jungle floor in Guyana in 1978 after drinking punch laced with poison is a prime example. “Some of the worst atrocities have been committed where people think that God is on their side,” Armstrong says. If discerning between God's voice and one's own desires is so risky, how do pastors do it? Several pastors say they can tell that God is talking to them if it lines up with Scripture. But the Rev. Scott Wenig, an associate professor of applied theology at Denver Seminary, says that discernment method is not so simple. The Bible contains passages that condone brutal behavior. Slavery, for example, is supported in the Old and New Testament. “In the 19th century, some Southern Christians were making these incredible, detailed and complex biblical defenses of the enslavement of African-Americans,” he says. He has own method for testing whether a preacher's vision is from God or his or her own ego. “What is the fruit that's coming from the behavior based on 'God told me?'?” he says. “What are the consequences of the action being taken? If the fruit is good, as Jesus said, the tree is good.” The Rev. Paul Morton, founder of the Full Gospel Baptist Church Fellowship, says he can tell when God is speaking to him. He compares it to knowing the voice of a loved one. Morton's Full Gospel message insists that God communicates with Baptists through the “full' gifts of the Holy Spirit: speaking in tongues, healing and revelations. ”It's not a white horse or anything written in the sky,“ Morton says about hearing God's voice. ”He impresses something in your spirit.“ Morton says God gives him signs to validate his message. He says God recently told him to expand his New Orleans' megachurch, Greater St. Stephen Full Gospel Baptist Church, to Atlanta. He expects God to reward his move with another sign. ”There's no vision without provision,“ he says. ”He's not going to let you down midstream.“ There's also plenty of growth when pastors claim divine visions. Evangelical and charismatic churches like Morton's are growing much faster than mainline Protestant denominations. Critics of mainline church say their membership is declining in part because they drain worship of emotion. They say people want to experience God through ecstatic worship and divine revelations. They also want a pastor who experiences God the same way. Morton agrees with that thinking. He says modern churches can't grow unless they pay attention to God's voice. ”The children of Israel had to move with the cloud,“ he says, referring to the Exodus story. ”If they didn't move with the cloud, they would have been stuck in the wilderness. Some of the churches of today are getting stuck in the wilderness.“ One popular pastor, though, took a different approach when he was tempted to pull out God's cellphone number. After touring New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina, he was asked by a reporter: How could a loving God allow such a disaster? ”Well, I spoke yesterday to the clergy and I asked myself why. and I told them I don't know why,“ the pastor told Newsweek. ”There is no way I can know.“ That man was the Rev. Billy Graham. More ministers say they have a direct line to God (http://www.dallasnews.com/cgi-bin/bi/gold_print.cgi) Title: Re: More ministers say they have a direct line to God Post by: nChrist on July 11, 2006, 03:17:20 AM Dreamweaver,
Brother Bob, this also cheapens and seems to ridicule the prayer life of a normal Christian who may pray about the same problem many times and patiently wait long periods of time for the leading of the Holy Spirit. Christians can pray to GOD, but we certainly can't do it like we're talking to our next door neighbor. As an example, many sweet Christians pray for their children every day of their lives, but they realize GOD'S Will be done. This article is very troubling in many ways. There seems to be a contest over who GOD has talked to the most. Most sweet Christians are extremely happy to just get a still, quiet, and gentle leading of the Holy Spirit when they pray or study their Bibles. It appears that these preachers mentioned in the article are practicing their own righteousness in public or worse, and we know what the Holy Bible says about that. More and more, I'm sad to say that some of the voices coming from pulpits today are NOT influenced by GOD, rather the devil. False prophets and false teachers are becoming a dime a dozen, especially on television. The devil is competing with GOD for hearts and minds. This is very sad. Love In Christ, Tom John 4:36-38 NASB "Already he who reaps is receiving wages and is gathering fruit for life eternal; so that he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together. "For in this case the saying is true, 'One sows and another reaps.' "I sent you to reap that for which you have not labored; others have labored and you have entered into their labor." Title: Re: More ministers say they have a direct line to God Post by: linssue55 on July 13, 2006, 10:26:42 AM More ministers say they have a direct line to God Claims are nothing new, but recent examples stand out 12:12 PM CDT on Saturday, July 8, 2006 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution/ New York Times News Service ATLANTA -- “God told me ...” The Bible says God speaks in a “still, small voice,” but that voice no longer seems to be still or small if you listen to contemporary pastors. The phrase “God told me” is becoming one of their favorite expressions. So many seem to be on speaking terms with God. Turn on the TV or the radio, and one will inevitably encounter a preacher flashing what one pastor calls the “God trump card.” It signals that the holder is the recipient of a steady stream of revelations from God on matters big and small. It's invoked so often that few question it, but two recent examples stand out. In May, the Rev. O'Neal Dozier, pastor of Worldwide Christian Center in Pompano Beach, Fla., told an audience that Jesus had appeared to him in a dream and told him that the next governor of that state would be a Republican. In March, spiritual guru Neale Donald Walsch published “Home With God” and announced that it would be the final chapter in his best-selling “Conversations With God” trilogy, in which he claims to talk to the Almighty. Last November, J. Lee Grady, editor of Charisma magazine, wrote a column complaining about pastors taking their revelations too far. He cited one charismatic pastor who told his congregation that a new revelation from the Bible allowed him to have more than one wife. Another said his “anointing” allowed him to have more than one sexual partner. Ruth Tucker, author of “God Talk,” says pastors - and ordinary people - often confuse God's voice with their own. “The voice of God often corresponds with something they very much want to hear,” Tucker says. “Biblically, God speaks, but God breaks through in a monumental way that's far beyond giving comfort or advice to any person's plan or agenda.” Claims of personal encounters with God are nothing new. Christian, Jewish and Muslim traditions are filled with inspiring stories about God communicating with people. People of faith often talk about hearing God's voice in a dramatic situation or being led by an inner voice or a divine sign. But what happens when revelation becomes routine? What happens when some preachers talk about God as if they have his cellphone number? God lets them know who to vote for, what sermon to preach and when to start a new building program. That practice trivializes God, some scholars and preachers say. It also contradicts what history's greatest prophets and mystics say about hearing from God. Take the Hebrew prophets, for example. They don't describe having casual conversations with God. They recall being terrified by God. Isaiah called himself a “ruined” man after he heard God's voice. Ezekiel was “stunned” and immobilized for seven days after his encounter. Ancient Hebrews thought they would die if they even saw God's face or said his name aloud. Karen Armstrong, a former Catholic nun who's become a best-selling author about Christianity, Judaism and Islam, says these prophets were shaken because they were confronted by “the experience of transcendence.” “What they were saying is that what we call God, we can't even talk about,” she says. “It is indescribable, ineffable. The only reverent attitude is silence.” Pastors who invoke a chatty God run several other risks. Tucker, author of “God Talk,” says the practice misrepresents what we call God. She says many modern people can't conceive of a God of silence and mystery, so they fashion a glib God who becomes just another voice in our busy sonic landscape, along with the TV, the radio, the iPod. “People have become pals with God like you would with a cellphone partner you have to keep in touch with every half-hour,” Tucker says. “Some people are wondering if - in a talkative world where we have to hear voices all the time - this is how we are also treating God.” A preacher who claims to hear often from God can use that to manipulate their congregation. The Rev. James Merritt, the former president of the Southern Baptist Convention, says the claim, which he calls the “God trump card,” can squelch debate. It's easier to criticize someone's reasoning than their experience. “If God told you to do something, what can I do? I can't contradict God,” says Merritt, pastor of Cross Pointe Church in Duluth. “You played the 'God trump card.'?” A preacher's claim to be a special source of revelations is dangerous in other ways. It contradicts Jewish and Christian scripture, says Thomas Long, an author and authority on preaching at Emory University's Candler School of Theology. Citing a well-known Old Testament passage from the book of Joel that quotes God as saying, “I will pour out my Spirit on all people,” Long says: “I don't think its theologically congruent with the Jewish and Christian understanding of community in which the Spirit falls on everybody.” Claiming to have God's cellphone number also can lead to self-promotion. When, for example, was the last time someone heard a pastor say that God called him or her to take a smaller salary or move to a smaller church? Long says he's heard it but says it's rare among preachers who routinely hear from God. “God rarely puts us on the down escalator,” Long says. Claims of speaking to God also can ripen into bizarre, even pathological leadership. The Rev. Jim Jones and the bodies of his followers covering a jungle floor in Guyana in 1978 after drinking punch laced with poison is a prime example. “Some of the worst atrocities have been committed where people think that God is on their side,” Armstrong says. If discerning between God's voice and one's own desires is so risky, how do pastors do it? Several pastors say they can tell that God is talking to them if it lines up with Scripture. But the Rev. Scott Wenig, an associate professor of applied theology at Denver Seminary, says that discernment method is not so simple. The Bible contains passages that condone brutal behavior. Slavery, for example, is supported in the Old and New Testament. “In the 19th century, some Southern Christians were making these incredible, detailed and complex biblical defenses of the enslavement of African-Americans,” he says. He has own method for testing whether a preacher's vision is from God or his or her own ego. “What is the fruit that's coming from the behavior based on 'God told me?'?” he says. “What are the consequences of the action being taken? If the fruit is good, as Jesus said, the tree is good.” The Rev. Paul Morton, founder of the Full Gospel Baptist Church Fellowship, says he can tell when God is speaking to him. He compares it to knowing the voice of a loved one. Morton's Full Gospel message insists that God communicates with Baptists through the “full' gifts of the Holy Spirit: speaking in tongues, healing and revelations. ”It's not a white horse or anything written in the sky,“ Morton says about hearing God's voice. ”He impresses something in your spirit.“ Morton says God gives him signs to validate his message. He says God recently told him to expand his New Orleans' megachurch, Greater St. Stephen Full Gospel Baptist Church, to Atlanta. He expects God to reward his move with another sign. ”There's no vision without provision,“ he says. ”He's not going to let you down midstream.“ There's also plenty of growth when pastors claim divine visions. Evangelical and charismatic churches like Morton's are growing much faster than mainline Protestant denominations. Critics of mainline church say their membership is declining in part because they drain worship of emotion. They say people want to experience God through ecstatic worship and divine revelations. They also want a pastor who experiences God the same way. Morton agrees with that thinking. He says modern churches can't grow unless they pay attention to God's voice. ”The children of Israel had to move with the cloud,“ he says, referring to the Exodus story. ”If they didn't move with the cloud, they would have been stuck in the wilderness. Some of the churches of today are getting stuck in the wilderness.“ One popular pastor, though, took a different approach when he was tempted to pull out God's cellphone number. After touring New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina, he was asked by a reporter: How could a loving God allow such a disaster? ”Well, I spoke yesterday to the clergy and I asked myself why. and I told them I don't know why,“ the pastor told Newsweek. ”There is no way I can know.“ That man was the Rev. Billy Graham. More ministers say they have a direct line to God (http://www.dallasnews.com/cgi-bin/bi/gold_print.cgi) All christains have a direct line to God.......BUT not the way some pastor's say's, if their stating "Audible." They may be drinking to much wine, lol. They should be ashamed, and not only that, they really NEED to learn the true word of God. Them being men that have the Gift of pastor teacher (IF they do-the gift I mean?) they should know this is false. Tis a shame! Title: Re: More ministers say they have a direct line to God Post by: Brother Jerry on July 13, 2006, 04:17:13 PM Amen both BEP and Linssue
I always cringe and turn the channel as soon as a preacher says "God told me..." It does not matter how good the preaching was up to that point it is all wasted. God's last telling was with Jesus and will not happen again until it is too late to do anything. I know from experience that God reveals. That God urges and leads. And the day my pastor switches from being led by the Lord to talking to the Lord is the day I find another church. Thank you Jesus though for continuing to lead my pastor :) Sincerely Brother Jerry Title: Re: More ministers say they have a direct line to God Post by: nChrist on July 13, 2006, 05:57:13 PM Brothers and Sisters,
I was just thinking about some possible red flags that should cause concern by GOD'S children about people in the pulpit. Some might disagree and some might have additional red flags worthy of concern. 1 - Money, Money, Money and living in the lap of ridiculous luxury. 2 - Self-proclaimed prophet, apostle, and especially Messiah. 3 - Glorifying self instead of GOD. 4 - Denying the absolute deity of God the Father, God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit, yet the three being ONE. 5 - The biggest red flag remains any attempt to say that JESUS CHRIST is NOT GOD, that He was just a creation of GOD, just a prophet, just a teacher, just a messenger, or just anything other than VERY GOD made manifest in the flesh, dying on the CROSS for us and in our place, rising from the dead on the third day, and ascending back to Heaven as our Lord and Saviour forever. If they wish to avoid or refuse to answer basic questions about JESUS CHRIST, this remains to be the quickest ways of identifying a cult. I did some recent research about cults on the Internet, and I'm sad to say that there are so MANY that it's impossible to keep up with them. It is very sad to know that many people will be deceived by these false cults, false prophets, false apostles, false teachers, and absolutely false Messiahs. This should be a time of great prayer for every Christian and taking every opportunity that GOD gives us to witness to the lost. This is also a time where many people will be Saved and accept JESUS CHRIST as their Lord and Saviour forever. Love In Christ, Tom Ephesians 3:14-19 NASB For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. Title: Re: More ministers say they have a direct line to God Post by: The_Shepherds_Sheep on August 28, 2006, 09:26:52 PM Whats wrong with God speaking to You? In Revelation John says that the Lord showed him the things which were to come to pass through visions and spoke to Him in those visions. Maybe you don't think we have the same faith that it takes to hear from God? The Bible states that nearing the end times we will have the greatest outpouring of the Holy Sprit. You may still say that that doesn't mean we will hear from God. Then I turn in the Bible to Hebrews 13:8 and it says,"Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, and today, and forever." So if Jesus told those things to John and Jesus is the same forever, then we can safely say that Jesus will talk to, as the scriptures says,"Those who have a willing ear, let them hear."
Title: Re: More ministers say they have a direct line to God Post by: Soldier4Christ on August 28, 2006, 09:39:58 PM Whats wrong with God speaking to You? Absolutely nothing. There are many false prophets/teachers/preachers today that use that term to give authority to what they are about to say. This term should be a red flag to "test the spirit" because of the way it has been used by man. blackeyedpeas gave some excellant points above on doing just that. Title: Re: More ministers say they have a direct line to God Post by: Warrior4Christ on August 29, 2006, 10:45:19 AM Amen both BEP and Linssue I always cringe and turn the channel as soon as a preacher says "God told me..." It does not matter how good the preaching was up to that point it is all wasted. God's last telling was with Jesus and will not happen again until it is too late to do anything. I know from experience that God reveals. That God urges and leads. And the day my pastor switches from being led by the Lord to talking to the Lord is the day I find another church. Thank you Jesus though for continuing to lead my pastor :) Sincerely Brother Jerry From what you are saying, you don't believe that God can talk to us or relate to us through Christ Jesus as His Children, which is just not Biblical. For we have access to the Father in Heaven by the Spirit of God. Those of us who are washed in the Blood of the Lamb can come boldly to the Throne of Grace. I don't know about you but I talk to my Daddy in Heaven everyday and He talks back to me through the Holy Spirit that lives inside me. I think attempting to have a "religion" verses a "relationship" is two different things. I relate to my Father in Heaven and He relates to me. I know Him through the Word of God but also through the Holy Spirit and NOTHING can separate me from my relationship. Not even skeptics. While I appreciate the calling and gifts of pastors to lead the sheep, this cannot take the place of having a one-on-one relationship with Christ and the Father in Heaven. To say God cannot speak to men or to have relationship with them as intimately as your own earthly family goes against everything I've ever learned about God's Character and Nature. God had relationship with men and women in the Old Testament before the Law, after the Law and certainly now in Grace and Mercy. I just cannot believe that others are not willing to listen to the Lord. He desires to talk to us, perhaps you have to desire to listen. He DOES have a voice. Title: Re: More ministers say they have a direct line to God Post by: nChrist on August 30, 2006, 02:04:55 AM Hello Warrior4Christ,
WELCOME! (http://www.sirinet.net/~blkidps/welcome.gif) I think that you missed some of the details in this discussion. Many sweet Christians here have a personal relationship with JESUS CHRIST. What we are discussing here is contests between preachers for who is closer to God and thus get the bigger money. In other words - a circus act. Try to watch Benny Hinn and you'll get an idea. We aren't talking about the prayer life of a Christian, rather sensationalized stage shows that glorify the preacher, not GOD. There is a huge difference unless you happen to be a fan of Benny Hinn or preachers like him. If you are, what I just said won't make very much sense to you. In fact, if Benny Hinn is your man, you won't understand or agree with many of the things I say and believe. Most of our regulars here pray numerous times every day, but it isn't something we use for contests or boasting. Maybe you understand now and maybe you don't. Regardless, stick around and get to know us. I look forward to reading your posts and having fellowship with you. Love In Christ, Tom Romans 5:20-21 NASB The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. |