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Good day to all my fellow believers

I am requiring a little assistance from some of them that may be outside of the box that I am in :)
I have been in a discussion with a friend of mine.  One I have been praying about for a long long time.  He is not a Christian and to the point of atheistic if I had to label him.

However we get on the topic of God every now and then and we were today.  We were talking of the Yates woman who drowned her 4 children.  He has made a comment of how it must have been God's will that those children die.  Which of course got us down the topic of free will and predestination and such...of course.

My points being that God has forseen every decision we have made and will make and the outcome of every one of them.  However that does not mean that God is imposing His will upon us.  His ultimate rebuttal going something like the following:

"He ran through all of them (possible universes, realities, etc) in his head before the creation, and chose the one He liked best, along with all of it's outcomes...therefore everything that happens, happens because he chose it to happen."

There was much much more to our conversation.  I was trying to explain that yes God foresaw an infinited number of universes to create.  And the outcome of each and everyone of them before creation.  He did select this universe.  And the universe being the physical aspect of what we live in.  And He did see the infinite possibilities of His creation but just because He did the act of creating does not mean He imposed His will upon those created.

And his rebuttal is usually along the lines of yes God did because He could have just as easily created a reality in which the 4 children did not die.

I am trying to explain that there is a difference between the universe and a "reality"  God saw all realities but did not create them.  He created the universe that best suited the creation of man with a free will.  It is the outcome of man's actions that create the realities. 

If anyone knows some good references Biblically or philisophically for the fallacy that my friend is positing...I would be greatly appreciative.

I usually stand well against him and he and I have bantered back and forth for years.  But I either could not word things well or my brain froze up on this one.

Thank you in advance
Sincerely
Brother Jerry

Brother Jerry, you might want to check out The Meaning of "FOREKNEW" in Romans 8:29 (http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=11629.0) <--- forum link.

There is a certain amount of predestination in God's creation. He designed things to behave in a certain manner but only to a certain degree. He could have decided to control all things completely and force all things to behave according to His wishes When it comes to man He did not do this. He gave us a free will, the ability to think and to reason, to make choices. He gave us this ability as He wants men to love Him willingly. After all true love cannot be forced into someone. If it is forced then it is no longer true love but complete servitude with lack of feelings. Robots.

I use these 2 below on unbelievers, they are what the layman can seem to understand. To tell them the things of the spirit, they cannot relate, for they live outside of the spiritual world, like Nicodemous.  Hope this helps.


A. W. Tozer

In Knowledge of the Holy, A. W. Tozer attempts to reconcile the seemingly contradictory beliefs of God’s sovereignty and man’s free will:

“An ocean liner leaves New York bound for Liverpool. Its destination has been determined by proper authorities. Nothing can change it. This is at least a faint picture of sovereignty.

“On board the liner are scores of passengers. These are not in chains, neither are their activities determined for them by decree. They are completely free to move about as they will. They eat, sleep, play, lounge about on the deck, read, talk, altogether as they please; but all the while the great liner is carrying them steadily onward toward a predetermined port.

“Both freedom and sovereignty are present here, and they do not contradict. So it is, I believe, with man’s freedom and the sovereignty of God. The mighty liner of God’s sovereign design keeps its steady course over the sea of history.”


Theological Debate

The story is told of a group of theologians who were discussing the tension between predestination and free will. Things became so heated that the group broke up into two opposing factions. But one man, not knowing which to join, stood for a moment trying to decide. At last he joined the predestination group. “Who sent you here?” they asked. “No one sent me,” he replied. “I came of my own free will.” “Free will!” they exclaimed. “You can’t join us! You belong with the other group!” So he followed their orders and went to the other clique. There someone asked, “When did you decide to join us?” The young man replied, “Well, I didn’t really decide—I was sent here.” “Sent here!” they shouted. “You can’t join us unless you have decided by your own free will!”

I have read those before but forgot all about them. I shouldn't have because I really like them. They are indeed an excellant example of this subject.

My brother, Brother Jerry,

I have been a fan of Chuch Missler for several years.  His tapes on the "7 letters to 7 churches", "Sovereignty of Man", and others are nondenominational, thoughtful, well informed and quite logical for a rocket scientist.  The attached is from the sovereignty message.  His website is:  http://www.khouse.org/


PREDESTINATION VS. FREE WILL


"The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever..." - Deuteronomy 29:29

>From the beginning of time, thinkers have puzzled over the paradox of fate vs. free will, or predestination vs. free choice. In theological terms, this leads to the struggle between Calvinism and Arminianism. As we explore this paradox, we find that examining the fruit of each position reveals that the River of Life seems to flow between these two extremes, and that once again, truth involves a careful balance.

At the heart of the controversies between Calvinism and Arminianism is the emphasis on the sovereignty of God by the Calvinists and on the sovereignty (free will) of man - or human responsibility - by the Arminians. Calvinism emphasizes that God is in total control of everything and that nothing can happen that He does not plan and direct, including man’s salvation. Arminianism teaches that man has free will and that God will never interrupt or take that free will away, and that God has obligated Himself to respect the free moral agency and capacity of free choice with which He created us.

Both doctrinal positions are reasonable and both have extensive Scriptures to back them up. Both are, in our opinion, both partially right and partially overextended. As Philip Schaff has put it, "Calvinism emphasized divine sovereignty and free grace; Arminianism emphasized human responsibility. The one restricts the saving grace to the elect; the other extends it to all men on the condition of faith. Both are right in what they assert; both are wrong in what they deny. If one important truth is pressed to the exclusion of another truth of equal importance, it becomes an error, and loses its hold upon the conscience. The Bible gives us a theology which is more human than Calvinism and more divine that Arminianism, and more Christian than either of them."

Certainly, the Bible does teach that God is sovereign, and that believers are predestined and elected by God to spend eternity with Him. Nowhere, however, does the Bible ever associate election with damnation. Conversely, the Scriptures teach that God elects for salvation, but that unbelievers are in hell by their own choice. Every passage of the Bible that deals with election deals with it in the context of salvation, not damnation. No one is elect for hell. The only support for such a view is human logic, not Biblical revelation (which John Calvin did teach).

The concept of total depravity is consistent with Scripture, but the doctrine of limited atonement, that Jesus did not die for the sins of the whole world, is clearly contrary to Biblical teaching. The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus died for everyone’s sins and that everyone is able to be saved if they will repent and turn to Christ. Limited atonement is a non-Biblical doctrine.

Election and predestination are Biblical doctrines. God knows everything and therefore He cannot be surprised by anything. He is beyond the constraints of mass, acceleration and gravity, therefore He is outside time. He knows, and has known from “eternity past,” who will exercise their free will to accept Him and who will reject Him. The former are “the elect” and the latter are the “non-elect.” Everyone who is not saved will have only himself to blame: God will not send anyone to hell, but many people will choose to go there by exercising their free will to reject Christ.

On the other hand, no one who is saved will be able to take any of the credit. Our salvation is entirely God’s work, and is based completely on the finished work of the Cross. We were dead in trespasses and sins, destined for hell, when God in His grace drew us to Himself, convinced us of our sin and our need for a Savior, and gave us the authority to call Jesus Lord. Is this grace, this wooing, this courtship, irresistible? No, we have free will and we can (and do) resist, even to the damnation of our souls, but God does everything short of making us automata (preprogrammed puppets) to draw us into His forever family.

Amen Doc!

I think this is an excellent way of describing this conflict of doctrines. All Christians should obvious know that Almighty God can do whatever HE pleases in Heaven or Earth, but HE obviously has not FORCED all men to love and obey HIM. We should know that HE very easily could have, and the Holy Bible tells us that HE doesn't wish any to perish in their sins without JESUS. We would all still be living in the Garden of Eden if man didn't have free will and choice.

Our Great and Almighty GOD knew the number of hairs on our heads and the exact moment that each sparrow would fall out of the sky before the foundation of the world. We should know that our CREATOR knows all and sees all from eternity past. We are simply human beings, and it should be obvious that we can't understand all of the ways of GOD. I think that our trying to apply our logic and limitations to GOD is a massive mistake.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:37-39 NASB  But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.  For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

             Amen... how awesome is our GOD!!!!!!!!!!!
                    (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/tinabaran/rosecross2.gif)

Thank you all for the wonderful words, links, and insight.

But one thing my old buddy has put into place would be similar to this statement.

God being all knowing and such saw the creation of our universe before he created it.  He saw all the possibilities before they were possible.  God saw all the possible realities that are there.  But when creating he chose this one reality.  (Specifically discussing the Yates case of the 4 children being drowned).  When He could have chosen a different reality to create.  Thus, my friend would state, that those 4 children drowned because it was God direct will.

Now I am not trying to cast doubt on anyone's eyes or anything.  And to all younger Christians here please let me explain that God did not directly will those children to die.  I do not believe that nor does the Bible support that sort of direct action of God.  But this is the sort of philosophical thinking that you or anyone else may encounter in the world that is driven by Satan. 

And I liked the example about the cruise liner.  However my friend would have come back and said because God knew in advance that Jimmy on the ocean liner would get sea sick and that it was God that created the ocean and ocean liner and put Jimmy on that ocean liner in that ocean then it was God's will that Jimmy gets sick.

It can get down to also the plans of God and that there will be and has been some human sacrafices to better the glory the God.  I know nothing in Bible says that no one will die.  Or that people will not die to better the kingdom of God. 

It gets really philosophical at points and I miss some of the words needed to really explain what the truth of the matter is.  It has been a good debate he and I have had.  And will not be the last nor was it the first.  Even as an unsaved I thank him because it makes me study even harder.

Sincerely
Brother Jerry

Hi Brother Jerry,

What it boils down to is men trying to understand the ways of God. Although none of these type of individuals would ever accept it the truth of the matter is that no man can or ever will understand the mysteries of God as long as we are in this world.


Num 23:10  Who can count the dust of Jacob, and the number of the fourth part of Israel?

Pro 3:5  Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Hello Brother Jerry,

Maybe this discussion regarding Yates could boil down to what GOD knew and allowed versus what GOD forced to be done. I used the word "forced" on purpose because man has disobeyed GOD throughout history. GOD obviously has the power to force man to obey HIM, but that hasn't happened. GOD gave man choices and consequences for those choices.

I guess the next question could be "could GOD have prevented Yates from killing the children?" Yes, but HE obviously didn't. The question could be taken further and ask, "does GOD force all good and evil?" NO, because HIS NATURE would be to force ALL GOOD if HE forced men to do what they do. The Holy Bible tells us that it hurts GOD when we disobey HIM. GOD made Commandments for the Nation of Israel, and no man was ever able to keep them. It would have made GOD happy if Israel had obeyed HIS Law, but we all know that Israel disobeyed.

As an all powerful Almighty GOD, GOD would be able to force anything he wanted to and forget about making Law and designating punishment for various violations. The fact is that HE didn't force man to obey HIS Law, nor did HE force man to disobey HIS Law. The fact is that HE allows us to do as we choose. So, I guess your friend could say that GOD allowed Yates to kill the children, but HE didn't direct or force Yates to kill the children. Further, HE could have stopped Yates, but that isn't HIS nature. I guess you could take this further and say that Yates killing the children was GOD'S Will because HE allowed it. BUT, this doesn't mean that we can blame GOD because Yates killed the children.

This discussion usually graduates to bigger questions, and I give a few examples. GOD, created us, so doesn't that mean that HE is directly responsible for every good and evil thing that we do? It might if we were remotely controlled by HIM or programmed before birth to be robots without thinking skills and without the ability to choose between good and evil. But this obviously didn't happen.

NOW, we take the discussion to the ultimate levels. GOD created the devil and other fallen angels, so doesn't that mean that GOD is directly responsible for ultimate evils? NO, GOD'S nature is to create beings with choice. There are some secrets in the Holy Bible that aren't so secret. They are there for us to know something about the nature of Almighty God. HE wants us to love, worship, and obey HIM, but HE didn't make robots to fulfill HIS wishes. GOD wants us to love, worship, and obey HIM because we WANT to by free will and free choice. For this reason and others, GOD did NOT create hosts of robots who were forced or programmed to love, worship, and obey HIM. Further, HE wants us to feel remorse and ask for forgiveness when we sin against HIM. There would be no need of law, punishment, or forgiveness if we were all robots simply because GOD would be at fault for every good and evil thing.

Let's take one beautiful example from the Holy Bible to Illustrate choice. The Holy Bible tells us that King David was a man after GOD'S own heart. This was under the Law, and GOD loved David, and David loved GOD. David committed adultery, and that was a death penalty offense under the Law. David prayed for forgiveness, and David was not put to physical death. All kinds of questions arise from this, specifically those that relate to physical versus spiritual death and eternity. Let's not open another series of difficult questions and deal with what we are already discussing. King David was the anointed King over GOD'S chosen people, Israel. Did GOD force King David to commit adultery, or did King David choose to commit adultery? David chose to commit adultery, and GOD didn't FORCE David to resist. David was tempted and David yielded to that temptation, and it's really just as simple as that. Aren't we all tempted to do bad things throughout our lives? Even JESUS CHRIST was tempted when HE walked this earth in the form of a man, but JESUS CHRIST didn't yield. If we understand the nature of GOD, we should know that the actions of David hurt GOD in a mighty way. GOD didn't force David to commit adultery, HE simply allowed David to be a man and make choices.

In conclusion, the Holy Bible tells us that GOD doesn't want ANY man to perish in his sins without JESUS. An all powerful GOD could force every man to accept JESUS CHRIST as Lord and Saviour, but HE doesn't. HE allows man to choose. Because HE allows man to choose instead of forcing him, it could be said that it is GOD'S Will to be lost when they die. SO, here's the ultimate question. Hosts of people die lost and without JESUS, so was it GOD'S Will that they die lost? YES, because HE doesn't force anyone to accept JESUS CHRIST as Lord and Saviour. YES, because HE allows man to make decisions. Does it hurt GOD when men refuse HIM? YES!

I think that the only remaining question is "because GOD allows the devil to tempt and man to choose, are all bad things the fault of GOD?"


Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 104:33-34 NASB  I will sing to the LORD as long as I live; I will sing praise to my God while I have my being.  Let my meditation be pleasing to Him; As for me, I shall be glad in the LORD.

Events do not take place because God said they would. Rather, He said they would because He knew thay would take place. It is difficult for mere man to get a handle on "predestination" as it is spoken of in Scripture because of our finite mind. Our tendency is to attempt to put Almighty God in a box. We project our feeble selves on omnipotent God.

If there is something we can't understand, we should trust it to Him and eventuallly the Holy Spirit will reveal it to us as we study His Word with open ears, minds, and hearts.

AMEN Len AMEN!!