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I am trying to defend the Christian concept of Trinity to an LDS person .  And I used this verse:

For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. - Isa 9:6

to imply that Jesus was also called Father.

However, he is saying that "
Regardless of what the English translations say, Hebrew and Greek don't have capitalization. "

Now is this a true claim?
Was the original Greek/Hebrew Bible void of capitalizations?
Then, what is the point of the Bible using capital words in the middle of sentences(G for God or F for the word Father in Isaiah).

Here are a few I use Ed.....

Matthew 28:18-20  Jesus approached and, breaking the silence, said to them, All authority (all power of rule) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19 Go then and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 Teaching them to observe everything that I have commanded you, and behold, I am with you all the days (perpetually, uniformly, and on every occasion), to the [very] close and consummation of the age. Amen (so let it be).

Colossians 2:9-10  For in Him the whole fullness of Deity (the Godhead) continues to dwell in bodily form [giving complete expression of the divine nature].  10 And you are in Him, made full and having come to fullness of life [in Christ you too are filled with the Godhead--Father, Son and Holy Spirit--and reach full spiritual stature]. And He is the Head of all rule and authority [of every angelic principality and power].

I do know that in Hebrew, there is no capitalization, of any words.

The capitalization argument is not completely true. There are several early Greek manuscripts that use bold, capitalized words when referring to God and Jesus.

RBC ("Radio Bible Class") has a very helpful booklet called "Do Christians Believe in Three Gods?" It's available online in pdf form (http://www.rbc.org/uploadedFiles/Bible_Study/Discovery_Series/PDFs/do_christians_believe_in_three_gods.pdf).

Thank you Mizar. That does look like an excellant book that brings many verses together in the light of the Tinity.. I have added it to my collection and will check it out later when I have a bit more time.

Brothers and Sisters,

We also have some extensive references to the Holy Trinity in the "Apologetics Area" in the "Is JESUS GOD" topics. I firmly believe that proof that JESUS CHRIST is and always has been GOD is one of the KEY methods of helping those who belong to cults.

As we all know, the devil always attacks JESUS CHRIST first because JESUS CHRIST is the only way to Salvation. So, I think that the "Is JESUS GOD" threads already contain a massive amount of information that would help you in this KEY issue. Saying that JESUS CHRIST was created or making Him just a teacher, profit, messenger, or teacher is still the quickest way to identify a cult and the lost people who are members of that cult. The Holy Bible is full of proof that JESUS CHRIST is and always has been GOD. Once that is firmly established, proof of the HOLY TRINITY is just as easy.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 17:21-23 NASB  that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.

1 John 5:4 NASB  For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.
1 John 5:5 NASB  Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
1 John 5:6 NASB  This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
1 John 5:7 NASB  For there are three that testify:
1 John 5:8 NASB  the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
1 John 5:9 NASB  If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son.
1 John 5:10 NASB  The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.
1 John 5:11 NASB  And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
1 John 5:12 NASB  He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
1 John 5:13 NASB  These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

In the KJV:

1 John 5:7 KJV  For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The WORD is JESUS CHRIST!

John 1:1 NASB  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 NASB  He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 NASB  All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
John 1:4 NASB  In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.

There is also complete and abundant proof that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit ARE (plural) the CREATOR! YET, the THREE are ONE!

Genesis 1:26 NASB  Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

Genesis 1:26 AMP  God said, Let Us [Father, Son, and Holy Spirit] make mankind in Our image, after Our likeness, and let them have complete authority over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the [tame] beasts, and over all of the earth, and over everything that creeps upon the earth. [Ps. 104:30; Heb. 1:2; 11:3.]

Love In Christ,
Tom

ED500,

Actually, all Koine Greek manuscripts have come to us with all capital Greek letters and no punctuation or separation between words.  This is the puzzle translators had to solve and have done so beautifully.  I cannot speak for the Hebrew texts but Jewish translators have taken good care of them for several thousand years.

There is no question that in either the Masoretic text of the Old Testament or the Koine Greek manuscripts of the New there are any doubts as to translation.  There is world wide agreement in 99.9% of them - except, of course, for the Mormons who have their own additional book written by a devious nutcase from my church's home town.   

Regarding capitalization, the norm is to capitalize personal pronouns for the deities as well as other people in today's English language.  The King James and the NIV do not faithfully do this for reasons of their own.  I use the NJKV which does do this and eliminates some missunderstandings as well.

I believe your use of Is. 9:6 is excellent, but you will probably not convince a Mormon of anything until he has the Holy Spirit to illumine him - after salvation, that is.

Get him saved, ED500 and we will rejoice with the angels !!

doc

Hi again ED500,

Spurgeon's AM devo for today rings a chime in my heart for the Holy Trinity:

July 12

Morning
“Sanctified by God the Father.”
- Jud_1:1
“Sanctified in Christ Jesus.”
- 1Co_1:2
“Through sanctification of the Spirit.”
- 1Pe_1:2
Mark the union of the Three Divine Persons in all their gracious acts. How unwisely do those believers talk who make preferences in the Persons of the Trinity; who think of Jesus as if he were the embodiment of everything lovely and gracious, while the Father they regard as severely just, but destitute of kindness. Equally wrong are those who magnify the decree of the Father, and the atonement of the Son, so as to depreciate the work of the Spirit. In deeds of grace none of the Persons of the Trinity act apart from the rest. They are as united in their deeds as in their essence. In their love towards the chosen they are one, and in the actions which flow from that great central source they are still undivided. Specially notice this in the matter of sanctification. While we may without mistake speak of sanctification as the work of the Spirit, yet we must take heed that we do not view it as if the Father and the Son had no part therein. It is correct to speak of sanctification as the work of the Father, of the Son, and of the Spirit. Still doth Jehovah say, “Let us make man in our own image after our likeness,” and thus we are “his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” See the value which God sets upon real holiness, since the Three Persons in the Trinity are represented as co-working to produce a Church without “spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing.” And you, believer, as the follower of Christ, must also set a high value on holiness-upon purity of life and godliness of conversation. Value the blood of Christ as the foundation of your hope, but never speak disparagingly of the work of the Spirit which is your meetness for the inheritance of the saints in light. This day let us so live as to manifest the work of the Triune God in us.

Brothers and Sisters,

The "8" problem turning into a smiley sometimes shows up even when you give the command "No Smilies" when posting a message. Look to the left of the "Post" button and you will see a label "Additional Options". Click it and give the command that you don't want smilies, and this will normally get rid of the "8" becoming a smiley, BUT not always.

The command for the smiley with sunglasses is "8" right next to ")". This is the manual way to get the smiley with sunglasses, and it works every time unless you give the command "No Smilies". The only way that I know to completely stop this is make sure there is a space between "8" and ")".

8 )  Should not result in a smiley under any circumstances.

Please note that I'm going to give the command during "Post" that I don't want smilies. If it works, the below will not result in a smiley with sunglasses. If it doesn't, the forum system will make it a smiley anyway.

8)

Linssue55,

Sister, the "No Smiley" command worked this time, but it doesn't all of the time. I don't know why the forum software slips and sometimes posts smilies. The ways to overcome this are many: 1) a space between an "8" and a ")". 2 ) Changing the ")" to any other character, including "}" and "]", etc.

I don't know what to do with this problem right now, but everyone should be aware that many smilies with sunglasses are the natural result of the command that makes them.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Matthew 18:20 NASB  "For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."