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There has always been this debate that election/predestination/foreknowledge means God picked out some for heaven and others fpr perdition before they were ever born.

I was just wondewring if, while God elected some, "ALL" who come to Him He will in no wise cast out. Or restated, election does not mean rejection of anyone because He has said that He is not willing that any should perish.

aw

Those whom God has preordained to come to Him will never be rejected.  If you have the desire, you have been chosen because Christ said that He who seeks will find. That's a fact. The ones who have no desire will have lost nothing. But they also have nothing but they think they do and they are content with that.

The fact is ALL would perish.

Romans 3:10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 3:11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

God does not predestinate any one to Hell we are all going there unless God rescues us.
It is an amazing thing because there is nothing we can do to rescue our selves. And none of us deserve to be rescued.
Sure we can throw ourselves on the mercy of God and we can search Him out in the scripture but salvation is totally His choice.

Romans 9:18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
 
If it was Gods will He could save everyone because we cannot resist His will:

Romans 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Our salvation is completely Gods mercy and nothing of our will (freewill) can save us:

Romans 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
 
James 1:18  Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

John 1:13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I do believe in predestination, however, because Revelations was written. There are certain things that are simply going to happen and we cannot alter prophecy. God knows the heart of every man and as Jesus explains in the gospel of John, He cannot come into the hearts of those who will not understand. God has definite reasons for hardening some people's hearts. If He sent the Holy Spirit into everyone's heart, then the world couldn't see the depth of sin, and therefore we wouldn't understand the depth of Grace.

The GodHead created ALL of His creation with free will. They knew what each individual would FREELY choose. And They  knew what ones would not choose to develope a character through the provision's that all of their creation had available to them. The verse by Christ is ETERNAL GOSPEL, that without me ye can do nothing.

ALL had & have the same FREE opportunity to Mature in Christ. Forknowledge of the GodHead does not effect ones salvation either way, the CHOICE IS OURS TO MAKE! (They just knew the outcome in advance) Even the Gentile ones of Rom. 2:14-15!

  The hardening of people's hearts which someone spoke of--
This is not an active work of God, yet He is involved in it in a passive sense. In the first chapter of Romans and elsewhere in Scripture we see God restraining the evil which resides in the hearts of men. He does this not because men deserve that help, but out of kindness (or common grace) lest
they and the world be overwhelmed by hearts which are "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked." His common grace restraining that evil is the reason people cannot realize the depths of iniquity to which their nature would take them "who can know it?" If He withholds that restraint (which common grace no man is deserving of) the person straightway falls from the weight of their own nature.

I happen to think that God is more powerful than we humans. The bible, and expecially Jesus, talks about God hardening people's hearts. I cannot believe of my own "free will". It is the Holy Spirit that enables me to believe. The Holy Spirit comes from God, not me. Trying to understand the Bible without the Holy Spirit is like trying to understand another language without an interpreter. Our "free will" comes from our biochemistry, the people we knew (or didn't know) as children, the era in which we live, etc. and whether or not God has chosen us. I do not believe those are free choices. What the bible means by free will is that God had to provide two ways for us to go. He had to provide a temptor that we have no power to resist, and the Holy Spirit. The only person who can resist the devil is the Holy Spirit. He has those two roads to show us why one is better. Our "decisions" come from what rules us at the time.

****
Hay, you can believe what you want! (no static from this end)
But pertaining to the post of mine at least, I included that CHRIST STATED AN EVERLASTING GOSPREL TRUTH! That "WITHOUT ME YE CAN DO NOTHING" And now about the FREEDOM of being TESTED. Why test a perfect creation???
And did God COMPELL Adam & Eve to EAT of the FORBIDDEN FRUIT in the [MIDST OF THE GARDEN?] Not POSSIBLE!

And read Gen. 4:7? Did God not tell Cain that.. "IF THOU DOEST WELL, WILL THOU NOT BE ACCEPTED?" If you tell me that he could not have done otherwise, then, you too have made your decision for now at least. Notice that Cain had a new 'DESIRE' [after he made] a bad [MATURE FATAL DECISION]. Not before.

---John
******

 Ralph,


Exodus 7:13
13 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
KJV

Exodus 9:12
12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.
KJV

Exodus 10:20
20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.
KJV

Exodus 10:27
27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.
KJV

Deuteronomy 2:30
30 But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.
KJV

Isaiah 63:17
17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.
KJV

John 12:40
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
KJV

Just a question. Has any every been a rebel before they became a christian? Had you ever openly violated the law of God? Do you remember how easy it was after you did the same sin over & over again? Lieing becomes easy! Stealing also is not bothersome! (unless one is caught)

Well, the first time the conscience is tender & the Holy Spirit can convict us of the sin. But as one continues on & on, the Holy Spirit is grived & quinched & it becomes harder & harder for God to reach us! This is what God means about His taking the rape for the hardening of ones heart.

Another example is seen in Rev. 3:16-17. There is NO condemnation against Laodicea's profession, yet THEIR LOVE IS SICK! And Christ said that they WILL BE SPEWED OUT! (fact) The Holy Spirit COULD NOT REACH THEM! They were BLIND, and NAKED OF CHRIST ROBE OF RIGHTOUSNESS! What was the basic bottom line problem? They were HEARD HEARTED! LOVE WAS THERE, YET IT WAS 'LUKEWARM'!

Then NOTICE that even the COLD COULD BE REACHED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT BEFORE THESE LUKEWARM ONES!! Now, did God harden their hearts?  No way! Yet, He takes the heat for ALLOWING His creation FREE WILL! If you don't think so, read the many posts that we are ROBOTS with NO FREE WILL!

This is a concern for a lot of people who are coming to Christ or find themselves in an unusually difficult situation. God will never cast out those who come to Him, but some choose to walk away from Him. It happens for several reasons-cares of this world, sin, whatever people decide to seek other than the Lord. But it's true-if you come to God, He will never cast you out.

Oops-almost forgot to mention-God's sovereignty is what protects you. Otherwise none of us would seek Him. If you feel inclined to seek Him, you can bet that's from the Lord. It's a gift, so enjoy it, relish it, and guard it like you would any precious jewel!

Romans 2:14  For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Romans 2:15  Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Romans 2 is only telling us we know right from wrong. We know most of the sins in our heart. And so many people who know nothing about God will live decent lives. My father was one such person. He lived his life to better mankind, he was kind and fair and more Christian than many who claim Christ. Yet unless God had mercy and saved him on his deathbed it is not likely that he will live with Christ.
How can someone accept Christ of their own freewill when they have never heard of Christ?

Romans 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Acts 26:16  But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Acts 26:17  Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
Acts 26:18  To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

If Jesus told Paul that he needed to go to the Gentiles to open their eyes to receive forgiveness for their sins then how is it possible for someone who has never heard the gospel to become saved?

Acts 15:7  And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
 
To go even further how could a baby make that freewill decision.

God does restrain sin because if He did not we would destroy ourselves we are that bad off.
God gives people up to their sin I think that is what happens when He hardens someone’s heart.

Romans 1:24  Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Any salvation plan that requires us to do something would be unfair unrighteous and unjust. Because salvation would be dependent on us, some people would have an unfair advantage. Those that were raised in a Christian society would have an advantage over those raised in a Hindu or Muslim or Pagan society.
It cannot be because we are born with the knowledge Christ is the savior in our heart. If this was true There would be the same percentage of believers in every society.  

No one will come to Him in truth unless He draws them. And everyone He draws Will become saved:

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:65  And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
John 17:9  I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
 
Remember the paralyzed man in Mark? His friends lowered him down through the roof so Jesus could heal him. Instead Jesus forgave him his sins. He didn’t ask for forgiveness there was no freewill choice involved.

Harder and harder for GOD to reach us? Who is man  that he can make things HARD for GOD? Is GOD weak, feable, or powerless against man? NO! HE is GOD , GOD of the earth ,GOD of Salvation ,GOD of all creation. I was dead in sin dead HE made me alive! He waited for Lazerus to be dead  real dead to the point of stinking, as i was.  THEN HE called him forth. Lazerus was, shell we say, hard dead.  ;)  



Rev 3:14-19
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
KJV

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
KJV

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
KJV

Where does the scripture say what you said it says?
 Who is man  that he can limit the very SPIRIT of GOD?

First of all, if Eve were perfect, she wouldn't have eaten the apple in the first place. None of us is omnipotent or omniscient. We are not bigger than the Holy Spirit or the devil. We respond to both. We want to believe we are in control of the universe which is, of course, the sin of pride. We also want to believe we have the power to do anything. Jesus said that He could do nothing without the Father. He was pefectly content to give the credit to God. Why do we want to think that we can do anything of our own free will? Why do we want to think that nothing affects us?

Our "decisions" come from what rules us at the time. I can remember wanting to believe in Jesus but i didn't understand His words. They were like another language. They didn't make sense to me without the Holy Spirit. The disciples were in the same quandry. It wasn't until pentecost when they received the Holy Spirit that they gave up their lives for Him.

Thanks to all for responding.

I don't believe that anyone will ever stand before God and declare, "You know I really wanted salvation but I was not elected/predestined to it."

aw

Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
KJV

******
WHATEVER?
Just one question then, in closing your posts out. Why did God not save Luciffer & the fallen angels, Cain and [ALL] of the rest [if He can] do so while still allowing one freedom of choice?

So I guess that you believe in universial salvation as we are seeing on other forums? (I personally have no time to wast with that belief, just do your thing)

---John

jhon the baptist,

Do you know what the gosple of the kingdom is?? according to the scriptures.

If you refered someone to it, where would you send them??

Petro

John i dont understand your post. . .   I dont have a clue what you mean by  'universial salvation'

I believe GOD chooses NOT so save those HE chooses not to and HE chooses those who he saves.


John you did not answer the question.( posted again  below)  Are you going to or are you just saying WHATEVER like a high school kid who didnt study?

Where does the scripture say what you said it says?

John
Somewhere in between universalism and works based gospels the truth resides.
God chooses who to save and lets the others go their own way. Man is doomed for Hell but it is Gods pleasure to save some.

Ephesians 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

2 Timothy 1:9  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

********
Hay, we agree on that! :)

  The Scripture which speaks of God hardening the heart of Pharoah--He did so by merely removing from Pharoah the restraint (common grace restraint) with which He had earlier strenthened Pharoah against Pharoah's evil nature. God's restraint being removed, Pharoah immediately fell into that hardness from the weight of his own nature. Those today who are unbelievers often think that they have a measure of personal moral integrity. The truth is, that God is being kind to them by His common grace. But as long as they are without Christ, God may at anytime give them up (see Romans
1:24,26,28) to their evil nature. Even if He continues to restrain their natural bent to evil throughout their life, at the point of their death, they will be totally without every former
common grace. No further help. Soon, they will find that they in themselves were no better than Hitler, Stalin, Jeffery Dahmer, Ted Bundy, or any other monster who just didn't have the same help they had gotten--but all through their life, they were personally taking the credit for being an upstanding citizen: refusing to acknowledge God's help. After death, they are on their own and will shortly find themselves in Hitler's neighborhood. Now the deliverance from sin that they thought they had no need of is no longer available.  

AW--Anyone who comes to Him will have been chosen in Christ "before the foundation of the world." No one else will come to Him. He was under no obligation to choose anyone,
but He did choose certain ones in Christ to make known to all the "glory of His grace." Every spiritual blessing enjoyed by His chosen ones is the result of His having chosen them--not from anything in themselves. His choosing them is solely according to the "good pleasure of His will."
  Those chosen in Him before the foundation of the world are
His "seed" (Isa. 53: "He shall see His seed") and therefore, in Isa. 9:6, Christ is called "The everlasting Father" and to His children, He is "The Prince of peace." Just as surely as all those in Adam died as a consequence of his sin, so all those
chosen in Christ will live because of Christ's righteousness
(Romans 5). Their names were also written down in the Lamb's book of life before the foundation of he world (Rev.)
  These are the ones whom the Father draws (without which no one can come to Christ.) That is also spoken of in the OT:
"The LORD has appeared of ols unto me saying, Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you." Jer. 31:3 and the Psalmist spoke of it: "blessed is the man whom you choose and
cause [don't miss that-"cause"] to approach unto you that he may dwell in your courts." Ps.65:4 The praise and the glory for the salvation of any soul from perdition belongs ONLY TO GOD.
  Rejection is simply a matter of Him having passed over those whom He did not choose unto salvation.

I think I've posted this before but...I believe that God, as is stated in scripture, chose me before the foundations of the world.  This chosing was not based upon foreknowledge of my choices, but on His Own plan.  Yet, I believe that in that chosing I was given a choice to make - obey God's call, or disobey God's call - a choice that had eternal consequence.

Yes, and I know where you are coming from, but the problem is in that if God picked out only certain ones A PRIORI, why does He say that He is not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance?

Perhaps we will just have to settle for it being a divine PARADOX that we cannot know the answer to for now?

aw

  AW--concerning your reply #25 about The Lord being longsuffering, not willing that any should perish--the apostle has been talking about the destruction of the earth by fire and says that God is not slack concerning that promise "but is longsuffering to usward [note that "usward"] not willing that any (of the usward) should perish, but that all should come to repentance" Then, later on, he says "wherefore, count that the longsuffering of the Lord IS SALVATION (Caps mine) Notice that Peter just said that the result of His longsuffering was the accomplishing of His goal that none should perish. Notice the "usward." That usward spoken of applies to all those chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. If it applied to each and every individual of mankind like the Arminians want it to mean, then God's longsuffering would not at all issue in the salvation Peter spoke of, for the longer this world rocks on, the greater is the mass of those who descend into an eternity without Christ. The only way God could accomplish His goal that none should perish by witholding that judgement is if (as is the case) those spoken of that He was not willing any of them should perish referred to His ELECT.

I will never believe that anyone will stand before the Lord and say, "I really wanted salvation but I was not elected."

aw

Ralph,

You hit the nail on the head.

The "us-ward" refers to the elect; God does have a burden for the world this is true, but at this passage of scripture, He specificallhy is speaking of His chosen people.

The same word "us-ward" is used at Eph 1:10, and it is there used to refer to believers

And the passage herein refers to "sin", He is longsuffering as a patient Father with an unruly child, who continues to insist on being disobedient, when He has been instructed and knows better.

"Not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance"  (2 Pet 3:9),

Note: That this does not refer to those who are refered to, in verses 1 thru 5, since they are called scoffers and ignorant of the things spoken of by the Apostles of our Lord and Savior.

Here is a verse which lights this passage and the thought it portrays, with regard to the elect that transgress, remember sin is the transgression of the law. (1 Jhn 3:4)
 
Please follow this closely;

Rom 5
15  But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17  For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:


Note, at verse 15, that the offence, (sin), is not like the GIFT, and then verse 16 again states, The gift of God is not like the result of one man's sin but;

The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but

the gift followed many tresspasses and brought justifcation.

Can you see this again read verse 16, the word tells us, that inspite of many sins, the believers commit, they shall be justified in the end, of course one will them ask;

HOW is this possible, since sin, kills the soul.

The answer is found in the next verse;

17  For if, by the tresspass of the one man, (Adam) how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision  of grace and the gift of righteousness reign in life throught the one man, Jesus Christ.

Our salvation is not based on our works, it is based on Jesus finished works at the cross, has done for us.

Only when one understands this one point, will he cease his own laboring to enter into Gods rest.

It is offensive to the Spirit of Grace, when man wants to add to his own salvation by doing this or that.

The people of God, obey His word, because they are saved, not because they want to be saved.

It is a conundrum, and not understood by those that live in the flesh by human wisdom, this is why we are called to live in the spirit.


Blessings,

Petro

 

And you won't. The Elect are those that are rescued. That is the type of salvation it is. What you will hear is people who thought they were saved, thought they did the work to get themselves saved.

Matthew 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

We want to be in control, we're control freaks.
When we surrender complete control to God then we have hope.
We can only be like the publican and throw ourselves on Gods mercy.

Luke 18:13  And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

Search the scripture for in them we have life.

Romans 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
 

I can agree with that. They will claim their works or trying to be or do good, but that will serve only to determine their degree of punishment- the second death or eternal separation from God.

aw

I am not sure what you believe. Do you understand that believing is a work.
And to believe on Jesus is Gods work.

John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

There are christians, that claim believing is a work. and furthermore even claim this is the work is that they perform which clinches their salvation.

Unforunately, the scriptures disagree with this line of thinking, it is simply a logical conclusion using the worlds wisdom, to establish something for the man that feels a need to work, and so he throws in his two mites, by claiming he believed (afterall I must do something, since I do have free will),
and then continues working to keep obeying commandments perfectly, worried that he may lose salvation.

However the fact is man is given everything he needs to come by faith in the finished works of Christ Jesus, and that includes the gift of "believing", and God does this as He draws men to Himself, because one must believe the Words He has spoken to us thru His dear Son, first

Note this verse carefully; How anyone can say, the work of God is a work I can do; No man can do the work of God, until AFTER he has believed God, and God gives that person the gift of being able to believe Him, and that faith is enough to believe in Jesus.

Phil 1
29  For unto you it is given in behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him but also to suffer for his sake;

Believeing is the work of God which He performs in unbelievers, and no unbeliever can do this work of his own volition, but can come to belief by grace thru faith ONLY after the unbelieving sinner confessess his sin of unbelief to a righteous God.

This my friends is the truth about the work of God, no real christian would nor should ever claim he believed;
 to do so is to reveal he still dwells in unbelief, and does not understand the gospel of grace at all.

Christ died for sinners while they were yet in sin, dead in sin and tresspass.  

They that are Spiritually Dead are incapable of believing anything.  They donot andf cannot receive the things of God, neither can they perceive spiritual truths, because God is a Spirit. (1 Cor 2:14)


Blessings,

Petro

Now in the lite of the scripture I have shared , lets look at the verse Left Coast has shared, closely;


John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

We can know see, the work of God, in sinners produces belief in Christ, because that person has believed the Word that Christ has spoken from the Father (Deut 18:18-19), and this work is granted freely by God.

The work this man goes on to work for God, will be judged at the judgment seat of Christ, if it burns, this man will suffer loss but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Cor 3:15)

Blessings,
Petro

We keep Gods commandments by effort because His commandments are works that we perform.
Thus we cannot get ourselves saved by keeping Gods commandments.
God commands us to believe:

1 John 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Different people have different abilities some people believe everything, we call them gullible, some people believe almost nothing, we call them skeptical.
But to believe unto salvation can only come from God.
Petro, we agree on many things, so I’m not sure if this is a typo:
The problem isn’t that they think they are getting themselves saved by works. The problem is they think they are not performing a work when they believe. So they put their trust in believing, when often all they have is an intellectual understanding as to who Jesus is. They want to join up and be part of the saved ones. I’ve never met anyone that truly wanted to go to hell.
Can believing save us from Hell I don’t think so. It won’t keep the devils out of Hell:

James 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

 People want to be saved but few want it on Gods terms.
We want to be in control. But salvation is entirely Gods work. Because it is God who changes our heart people of all sorts of different ages, abilities, and backgrounds are saved. God saves babies but how can a baby believe?

For me, Romans 10 says it best as related to believing "with the heart." The kind of faith that devils and some people have is nothing more than mere mental assent or intellectual orthodoxy. They believe that there is a God and even may believe that Jesus died for the sins of the world, but they do not believe it for themselves.  His death, burial, and resurrection means nothing to them except that they are facts. That kind of faith will not save them, but the kind that does is UNTO GOOD WORKS.

That kind of believing will be manifested in good works that bring glory to God.

aw

Left Coast,

I am confused by the words you use, allow me to point them out.


I assume you are speaking of God the Father's commandments, in this paragraph.

Then you quote;

1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

John, is speaking of Jesus the Son, at this verse of scripture, while it is true, ultimately He is God in the flesh, and he has given commandments of his own to them that recognize this great truth;  the commandments you refer to above (at your first quote) , are  from the father, one can assume you are refering to are the 10 commandments together with all the ordinances given to Moses.

Christians understand the Law of Moses was abolished at the cross, so the point you have raised is different from the verse you have quoted.

And I agree with you, "we cannot get ourselves saved by keeping Gods commandments.", you state this perfectly clear herein.

On the otherhand,then you say;


I Don't know what point you are trying to make, herein.??

I am saying, that to believe in a way that will save , one must believe that there is a God first. On this one great truth, hinges everything else this person does, because to be taught of God and to learn from Him, one must be willing to obey His words spoken by His Son.

So the first stop is at the father, after having heard the Sons words which He spoke on behalf of the Father.

In spite of what many believe, no man can go to Christ unless, he first goes to the Father(Jhn 6:44), and no man can go to the Father but by the Son (Jhn 14:6), and unless the Son reveals the Father to that man. (Lk 10:22) and only when the man repents and is granted repentance (Acts 11:18), will God give him to the Son, and the Son will give that person [eternal life and he shall never perish (Jhn 10:28), because this is the will of God the Father, that, as  many as  He gives the Son,  He (the Son) should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.(Jhn 6:39)

You said;


You confuse the issue, I haved no idea how a person that does not believe he did a work when he believed , could place his faith in  the fact he produced believing to believe.  This statement doesn't make sense.

It is evident to me, that a Christian who has been taught by God and hast believed God's Word,  knows and understands, his faith to believe God, is the result of God's free gift thru His Grace. And would never takle credit for this work God performs in his heart, afterall, no one can believe anything unless God gives the person a new heart to believe, with.

The evidence God has taught him, and this man has learned of God, is, that he places the faith given to Him by God on the finished work of Jesus, no man plays or played a part in this except to have caused the death of Jesus.

For if one believes Jesus died for him, then he caused Jesus to die, because of his sins, whom Jesus died for.

So I guess, if we want to take credit for something, we ought to be honest and, confess that because we are sinners and HE died for sinners, then we caused his death.

When and if men, seek to take credit for believing in God, this could very well be an indication, this man is still in the flesh.

And your quote;

.

, is the truth.

This for sure is a quality of the natural man.  Regardless of what that man says.

As for;


This is very true, and it answers your last Question.


If you really believe salvation is entirely Gods work, you would not ask this question.

But you do, because you presume to know that babies cannot communicate with God, or that there is a rigid formula God must follow to save the deaf and dumb, or the blind and those who cannot think nor understand because their brains never developed properly.

This presupposition is destroyed by Luke 1:15, since John the Baptist, even from his mother's womb, was filled with the Holy Ghost, also, God loved Jacob and hated Esau, before they were born or even had done right or wrong, and the reason why the scriptures reveal this truth to us, is so that we may know He is Soveriegn.  (Rom 9:11)

Even Nebuchadnezzar said:

And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
........all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?  (Dan 4:34-35)

And at;

Rom 9
11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Boy, if there is any verse which points out the fact that salvation "is not of works" this is it.

I told you before, God formulated a plan, it is his plan not ours, we only can know, what he is willing to reveal to us.

We know, and so does Satan, that there are  two seedlines (remember he was present when God pronounced the curse at the Garden), one belongs to him, and the other of the woman (Gen 3:15), Jesus is of the seed of the woman (the only begotten), we (all mankind) are born in the serpents seedline, and whosoever God has chosen to adopt from the serpents seedline, will be saved, regardless if Satan kills infants or  the mentally disturbed, God rules supreme in His creation, He Will do What is Right, on this I confident and it is here, will rest my case.

God Bless,

Petro

Petro
The entire bible is Gods commandments. For instance in the book of revelation we are commanded not to add to the prophecy of the book.
Since all scripture comes directly from God, God breathed, the commandment to believe on the name of Jesus is one of Gods commandments. That is why it says, “this is his commandment…”
The ability to believe comes entirely from God. That is why the bible says, “this is the work of God…”

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

If believing was dependent on us then it would be salvation by works. Since some people are more capable of understanding and believing than others it would be a salvation plan that would be unfair.
We don’t need to really question this that much. A baby simply does not have the mental ability to believe. Yet John the Baptist was saved while in the womb.

Luke 1:44  For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

The great joy we have is salvation. How could an unborn baby hear about the Lord and have enough understanding to leap for joy. It is only possible because God did 100% of the work.
C. H. Spurgeon not only said John was saved in the womb but Jeremiah was also, and Samuel was just a babe.

From the sermon, “Infant Salvation”.

Man is spiritually dead. Lazarus is a picture of unsaved man. He has been dead for several days and he stinks. The dead don’t see, hear, or think. Jesus cries out Lazarus come forth and he does, it is all the work of God.
       
John 11:43  And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
John 11:44  And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Left Coast,

You are echoing what I posted to you. Instead of clearing up, your statement.

I am still wondering what you meant when you stated;


You posted this in reply #34, in response to my statement at my reply #33,

My quote;



Was not a typo.

Believing is not a work of man, it is the work God does in man.

As for babies being saved, it is clear from your explanantion, that babies are saved and lost, making it Gods business, since all of His people were chosen in Him from before the foundations of the world, and only He knows who they are, we are not qualified to speak of this matter.

See if you can square this question for me.......

Blessings,

Petro

Petro
Believing is the result of salvation not the cause. Believing isn’t just having an intellectual understanding of Jesus, it means we have total and complete faith in Him and in His work of salvation.
Salvation happens when God gives us a new heart.
Hold this next thought for a minute. We are commanded to believe.

1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

We will only keep Gods commandments if He has given us a heart that can keep his commandments.
If He does not give us true belief then we will add our work of believing to try to claim His salvation.

Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Ezekiel 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

He makes it clear that this is the way of salvation in Hebrews:

Hebrews 10:16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Hebrews 10:17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Can you see that believing on our part is a result of our keeping Gods commandment because He has changed us?
Believing is not available to those that have never heard of Jesus. Would it be fair for God to put our salvation in our hands and then not tell everyone how to do it.
Babies are part of this, in no way did I intend to imply babies are saved then lose their salvation then have to get it again. Once you are saved you do not ever lose your salvation. If believing was a requirement babies would never be able to be saved. Because it requires an ability not available to everyone it is therefore a work.
Some people are saved as babies, they will never lose that salvation.
Most though go through life struggling with these types of questions or ignoring God entirely.
The fact that babies do get saved is the evidence that believing is not a requirement.
God can change a babies heart when they are just an infant. God doesn’t have limitations.
Most people I talk with feel they are saved because THEY believed. They don’t think it is a work they don’t understand that it makes Gods salvation plan unfair.
I hope I have cleared things up a bit but if there are questions I would be happy to try again.

Backtracking a bit here, so excuse me, but something very interesting dawned on me not long ago.  The bible does say that God chose me to salvation.  This is very explicit.  The words used are dependent upon a knowledge planned - a knowledge of what He would do, not what I would choose.  What dawned on me was this: though it says He chose me to salvation, the bible never says that He chose any to damnation.  That is merely our "logical" presupposition based upon what He does say.  But then, what does He say concerning the lost?


and...


and...


Staunch Calvinists will say that the world, and the "all" spoken of here are the elect.  I disagree.  He would have said so if that were the case.  Rather, He says that He wants all to repent, to be saved, and is unwilling that any should die in their sin.  Furthermore, He died once for all!

As God has sovereignly selected those who are saved by His choice, so He has sovereignly expected those whom He has called to come to Him in obedience.  The work is His.  The obedience is ours.  As I have said, I was chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, and I made a choice that had eternal consequence.  :)

Mark 1:5  And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
 
This would be approximately 2,000,000 people including Sadducees and Pharisees. Are you saying that all always means every single person?

Come now Lefty, do we need to review the biblical hermeneutic here?  In regards to the "all" it lists, you must consider it to mean what it means contextually.  If you can support that He doesn't mean all in those passages, then contextually, you'd be right.  You cannot do that, however, because it is contextually all inclusive.  No pun intended.  ;D

The word “all” rarely means every single person. Perhaps Spurgeon can explain it better.

..." the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ?  "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts —some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ... (C.H. Spurgeon from a sermon on Particular Redemption)
 
Now think about this for a minute.
Did Jesus pay for your sins?
The payment required is to spend an eternity in Hell for every sin committed.
Jesus had to do literally that. Hell will not come into existence until God creates the new heaven and new earth. But He had to suffer the equivalency of an eternity in Hell for all my sins.
So how did Jesus pay for our sins? It began in the garden of Gethsemane.

Matthew 12:40  For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Lets count backwards.
Sunday    Day 1
Sat. night   Night 1
Sat.        Day 2
Fri. night   Night 2
Friday      Day 3
Thu. night   Night 3
Where was Jesus Thursday night? In the garden of Gethsemane. That is when He began suffering, we see a key when it says he sweated as it were great drops of blood.

Luke 22:44  And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

On the cross before He died He cried out, “it is finished.”

John 19:30  When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

He still had to overcome death but He was finished paying for the sins of those He came to save.
So when it says:

2 Corinthians 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

People view it as meaning He paid for everyone’s sin. That is not possible. The payment only needs to be made once. That is why Jesus could not have paid for the sins of every single person on earth. If Jesus paid the penalty then it wouldn’t be paid again. Even Hindus, Muslims, Satanists, or atheists would never have to go to hell because Jesus can’t take the suffering back.
He paid for the sins of all that God gave him.
 
John 17:9  I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

So the evidence that Jesus was speaking of only the elect is found in the above verse.
Now it is true that He did not want anyone to sin. But the fact is we all do sin. And we begin our life of sin as soon as we are born:

Psalms 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Psalms 58:4  Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

This is why any salvation plan that an infant cannot accomplish is a false salvation plan.

Left Coast,

If you keep posting, eventually one can figure what is wrong with your doctrine.

you said;



This is an error which has taken you down a different road, than the one established by the Word of God.

Can you reconcile this statement with what Paul has written concerning how salvation is obtained;

Please note vs 13, especially;

Eph 1
3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
9  Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10  That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Please Note above at vs 13, believing comes before the sealing of the Holy Spirit, or as this verse says; after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit.

No one can possess salvation unless, he is first sealed by the Spirit of God............this is clear here at this verse.

The statement you have posted which I have re quoted above
is at odds with Holy Writ,

Please reconcile your statement with the scriptures for me.

Nothing you say, beyond this point, matters, since anything you say from here on, is clouded by your erroneous conclusion, that "Believing is the result of salvation", since it based on

"an intellectual understanding of what you think the gosple teaches."

Salvation is the result of believing, and believing is a gift of God, because it is the work of God in everyone that has been chosen from before the foundation of the world.

Blessings,  

Petro

Payment for sin is not an eternity in Hell.  That is the cost of dying in your sin and effectively rejecting Christ.  The penalty for sin is death.   Death is separation, both physically and spiritually.  Jesus experienced both on the cross.  


God, fortunately, did not quantify the amount of the payment for sin.  Rather, He qualified it.  Only the shedding of preordained innocent blood would suffice.  Such blood would come only from His Son.

You're reasoning, which is good.  However, your reasoning isn't.  :)

Allinall,



Precisely, and Eph 1:4-5, make this point clearly.

Then you said;


This is good, I agree with everything you have said, but please don't disappoint me, by your answer to the question I now ask:

What was the choice you made??

And, Please don't tell me it was to; believe............

Eph 1:13.......

Blessings,

Petro

I think we all agree that salvation is a free gift from God, and cannot be earned. But the one to whom the gift is being offered may choose to accept that gift, or reject it.
Jesus died upon the cross to provide this free gift of salvation. As is represented by the 2 thieves on the cross, some will reject the gift, while others will choose to receive it.
God, in His foreknowledge of what choice each of us would make, then does a work to call each of us whom He foreknew would choose to receive the gift of salvation, and gives us a measure of faith to be able to believe the truth of the gospel.
Once we see the truth, and believe Jesus died for our sins, we then choose to ask Him to be our Lord and Savior. And thus we are born again.
There are many scriptures, (many already quoted), that expand on this truth, but none will take away from this simple basic truth.
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not parish but have everlasting life." [John 3.16].
"Whoever believes". Those 2 words say, without a doubt, that the choice is ours to make. Knowing the ones who will choose to "believe", He then does a work in us. He first makes us aware of our need for Him; and then sees to it that we hear the truth of the gospel; and then gives us a measure of faith to be able to believe the gospel.
So, yes, many are right when they say He does the work; but it is we who must CHOOSE to believe. And it is because He already KNEW that we WOULD choose, that He does the work in us.
It would seem to me that God's way is not complicated; it is we who sometimes make it complicated. But that too is something we CHOOSE to do. Life is full of choices for man to make, everyday. Praise God He made the CHOICE of salvation a straitforward simple thing to choose about. "Whoever believes." Much else about scripture may seem at times complicated, but John 3.16 is pretty straitforward.
As to why man may choose not to believe, now there is a topic that would generate lots of discussion.
God bless you all.  Roy.

I truly believe that it was the one choice God demands of us in every command - to obey.  

Hey guys,

Have we not entered into the realm of paradox?

aw

Allinall,

Amen, again, I am not disappointed...........Praise the Lord.

The choice can never be "to believe", it can only be to obey the command, because of trusting; in fact it is trusting the Words of Jesus, who spoke the Words of God  the Father.

Foreknowledge is Gods business, Notice, what the Word says in the greek;

Eph 1
11  in Him, in whom also we have an obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to [the] purpose of Him who all things works according to the counsel of His will,  12  for to be us to [the] praise of his glory; who have fore-trusted in the Christ:  13  in whom also ye, having heard   the word  of the truth, the glad tidings, of your salvation- in whom also, having beleived, ye were sealed with Spirit of promise the Holy  14  who is [the] earnest of our our inheritance, to [the] redemption of the acquired possession, to the praise of His glory.

I have emboldened, key words in this passage of scripture, that others may consider them..

aw,

Nothing is a paradox in as much as the things which are freely given to us from above, we need to embrace the truth, and believe the word, it is only when we believe people who do not have the truth, that doubts arise and soon we come to this conclusion, that the knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom are out of our reach, Jesus said;  Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables;

A good example of this, is the discussion we have been having in the post "Jonah"in the apologetics forum; the sign given by Jesus to an unbelieving evil and adulterous generation, was that of the prophet Jonah's being in the belly of the great fish, three days and three nights being as His own three days and three nights in the belly of the earth, unbelievers conclude and use this passage to argue, Jesus never died, since according to them Jonah did not die himself, as you see,  believers agree with unbelievers, and their ability to see this great truth is clouded by unbelief, inthat Jonah, died and arose from the "pit" to go on to preach the Words of God at Nineveh.

And to their own consternation, proudly proclaim Jonah was a true Christ type, yet when one looks closely at this mans life, it is a wonder that anyone would make such claims about him, since almost everthing that can be said about Jonah is un-christ type.

Here is the same passage of Ephesians in the KJV;

11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Please note in the verses above I have given, that give an order to salvation.

If ever there is a formula, this is it, according to the good Word of God.

No one receives anything from above, unless it is given to them, God has ordained that by the foolishness of preaching men will be saved, and so here in Ephesians, men must first heard the preaching of the gosple of grace, those who come to a perfect understanding of it do so,(because God has given hearing and undertsanding), after considering all their options, they place their trust (at this point it can hardly be said yet they  have  believed to the saving of the soul in the Words of Christ.

Thereby believing God, they are not saved yet, but it is a step in the right direction, in that trusting,  because the word says they, fore-trusted in Christ, there is a willingness to  obey that commandment to repent given to all men everywhere, and God the Holy Spirit who knows the heart of men, and is leading them to draw that confession out of their lips, (when it comes) gives them the faith to believe in the blood of Christ shed for them at the cross.  

The result is the baptism in the Holy Spirit, or the sealing of the Holy Spirit, which ever you prefer.

Either way it is actually the indwelling of the Spirit of God, given as a possession until the redemption of the purchased possession.

This is why;

Belief can never be the result of salvation.

It is the cause of Salvation.

That we might be to the praise of His Glory.

Allinall,


The natural man, has no faith to believe, but even in his state of death he can trust, when and if God gives hearing to hear and understanding to understand the things of God, this is done well in advance of man coming to a state of trust.

And trusting will produce obedience. This is true.

You may a calvinist, but just don't know it, after all..

God Bless,

Your Brother in Christ,

Petro

Roy,

Allow me to excersize your thought processes.

Choose to trust or obey is not the same thing as choose to believe.

And ,neither of these trust, obey, believe can be produced by the natural man.

Consider these verses;

Eph 1
3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
8  Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9  Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10  That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Note verse 4; He chose us that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Again at verse 5; Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself,

With these promises, comes the enabling to accomplish these things, in sinners, they must hear, understand, and believe, and all of the above are a gift of God, according to the good pleasure of his will.

How about;

Rom 10
4  For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11  For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16  But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Rom 8
24  For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25  But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
28  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Man is unable to do anything, unless first the God draw him, and only by Gods mercy, love and grace can man hear His voice and respond in a way pleasing to Him.

He saves unbelievers and equips them with everything necessary by faith and believe, what they never could.

Blessings,   Petro

Petro, my brother.
Per your reply #51.
I saw nothing I disagree with. It would seem that it says what I also had said.
God gives us the faith to BELIEVE; once we are born again, He gives us the power to OBEY what He commands all Christians to do to live for Him and please Him. And we are able to TRUST Him because His Holy Spirit lives in us. In all these, it is, "Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit." [Zech. 4.6].
Love in Christ. Roy.

Royo,

Amen, It is good to agree......................Praise God.

1 Cor 1
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.


God Bless,

Petro

Petro
First of all you misquoted me.
What I said is, “Believing isn’t just having an intellectual understanding of Jesus, it means we have total and complete faith in Him and in His work of salvation.”
All sorts of people know that salvation is only through Jesus. That is an intellectual understanding. No one wants to go to hell. So people want to “join up”. They want to be part of the group that goes to heaven. They may begin to attend a church because they know that is what you do. But their hearts were never changed. I never meant it as an insult to you. What do you think though? Is everyone who claims Christ going to spend eternity with him? I actually thought this was something you would agree with me on.
Now to say nothing I say matters because of one Greek word is an interesting stand to make.
Those four words that you consider so important, after that ye believed, come from one Greek word, pisteuo. It appears 248 times in the bible but only once with those four words.
I have never spent a lot of time on this particular verse so I am not going to claim a perfect understanding.
Usually it is translated believe, believed and believing are also common.
Young’s literal translation does it this way:

Ephesians 1:13  in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth—the good news of your salvation—in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise,

Now how do we hear?
Isn’t it because God has opened our understanding. God has to give us the ears to hear.

Matthew 16:16  And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Matthew 16:17  And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 24:45  Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Matthew 13:11  He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Matthew 13:12  For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Matthew 13:13  Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Matthew 13:14  And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Matthew 13:15  For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them

Deuteronomy 29:4  Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
Proverbs 20:12 ¶ The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them.

Acts 16:14  And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
Acts 26:18  To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

I do not think we can believe until after God has begun His work in us. As soon as He starts His work we are saved. He never fails.

Romans 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

The result of that work is faith, believing, repentance, etc. When the change is made we are sealed.
Is this at all helpful Petro? ???
I would be shocked to find someone accepting this the first few times they hear it.
It took me 2-3 years before I really accepted what I heard, pride was my enemy. But now we are close to the end of time and I think God is speeding things up a bit.
Now you told me I needed to deal with that one verse and I don’t know if I have done a very good job. I can only pray that God has used me.
I did not and would not tell you “nothing you say matters unless you deal with this verse“, I’m not that closed minded.
You do need to deal with some verses though:
The bible says it is Gods commandment that we believe. 1 John 3:23. Is our salvation dependent on keeping Gods commandments?
In addition the bible says it is Gods work that we believe. John 6:29. How can believing be our responsibility?
A two day old baby can’t believe, and yet the bible says we sin as soon as we come out of the womb. Psalms 58:3.
God does judge babies. Deuteronomy 32:25. So babies need a savior also.
It also is clear to me John the Baptist was saved while in the womb. Nobody has come up with any other satisfactory answer for his leaping in the womb. Do you have one? How could an unborn child believe.
In addition to JTB we have Jeremiah:

Jeremiah 1:5  Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

God did his work while he was in the womb. How could that be because of his believing?
You presented a very good question, and I do need to spend more time researching the verse. I feel that I have presented a reasonable solution to your question. I pray for you, that you might be able to understand what I am saying. I don’t think it is a failing on your part I know that I can sometimes be a little confusing.
Is what I am saying new to you? When it was new to me it was hard to get all of my preconceived beliefs out of the way.
I know you pray and I know you study may God always give you wisdom.  

I do not think we can believe until after God has begun His work in us. As soon as He starts His work we are saved. He never fails.
Quote from Left Coast:
___________________________________________________

You are correct that we cannot believe until God starts His work in us, which begins by revealing to us our need for salvation. But we are not saved until we are born again, which is when the Holy Spirit of God comes to live in our spirit.
Which takes place the moment we ask Jesus to be our Lord and Savior.
Love in Christ our Lord. Roy.

Allinall,

You said;


Actually the Apostle tells us at;

2 Th2
13  But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

I suppose in order to understand this verse, one must ask himself; from the begining , of what??

I can't think of any other answer which would clear this question up perfectly than (Eph 1:4), "The Father has chosen us in Him from before the foundation of the world."


Blessings,

Petro

Royo,
I agree that we are born again when the holy Spirit comes to reside in us. But I don't NECESSARILY  believe that happens when we ask Him into our lives. i asked Him into my life 5 years before i believed or knew that He was real. Only when I had come to the end of myself and knew that i had no more answers did i receive the Holy Spirit. God is the only one who knows our hearts, regardless of what words come out of our mouths. The apostle Paul, of course didn't ask for the Holy Spirit and neither did the disciples. They were CHOSEN.

Royo
I agree with you salvation begins when we are born again, and an excellent way of describing that is, He lives within us.
But we cannot do anything to get ourselves born.
There is absolutely nothing that I did to bring my parents together. Once they were together there was nothing I could do to stop the process. I couldn’t reject my birth. God chose the term ‘Born Again’ very carefully. Like our first birth there is nothing we can contribute to our second birth. It isn’t because we are obedient, it isn’t because of our freewill choice, nothing we can do adds to our birth.
By being reborn what do we become?
I think we become an entirely different creature.

2 Corinthians 5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

There are other ways God words this important change in our life. And in all cases He makes it clear to me that He does the work.

Deuteronomy 10:16  Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Can we perform open heart surgery on our selves? God will do it.

Deuteronomy 30:6  And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Our heart is totally wicked there is nothing good in us, we have a heart of stone.

Jeremiah 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

God gives us a new heart, thus we are born a new creature.

Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Ezekiel 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
Hebrews 10:16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Hebrews 10:17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

The seventh day Sabbath was a day of total rest. The people could do absolutely nothing on that day. There was the story of the Sabbath breaker who picked up a few sticks. Gods command was to stone him to death.

Numbers 15:36  And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

When Jesus came the seventh day Sabbath was no longer the Sabbath day. If you have a Greek interlinear you can check this out. In all four gospels almost every bible mistranslates this. Young’s Literal Translation does get it right:

Matthew 28:1 ¶ And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

Notice sabbaths is plural. Literally the it was the end of the seventh day Sabbath because it pointed to the way (Jesus) to salvation. The new Sabbath was the next day the day God began His work. The first day Sabbath should be a day of spiritual work.
Don’t we just “receive” Him?

John 1:12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Nope that comes from God too.

John 3:27  John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
 
There are those that say you must believe in the heart and confess with the mouth. But again that is all from God for the heart to be true.

Romans 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Proverbs 16:1  The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

It is all in the heart.
There is another idea I am not ready to support yet. Not because I think they are wrong, but I haven’t studied it that much. There are some that teach being born again means that God has given us a resurrected spiritual body.
We have a physical body and we have a spiritual body. When the Lord returns our physical body is resurrected. But when we become saved our spiritual body is resurrected. That is why when the believer dies he goes to be with Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Revelation 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Revelation 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The 1,000 years is not a literal 1,000 years. It is just a term to signify the fulness of Gods time. There is a key to understanding this.

2 Peter 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 
The first resurrection is the resurrection of our spiritual bodies. I am not 100% on this it is new to me.

Left Coast, you seem intent on believing that we do not have to make a CHOICE to BELIEVE to be born again.
If that is the way you see it, so be it. As for what the Greek or some other translation, etc. says, I do not know. I am not a greek scholar, or otherwise. I just read the Word of God and let the Holy Spirit reveal it's truth to me. This is how He showed me to do it many years ago, and it works for me.
Smith Wigglesworth, one of the greatest men of God to live said that he did not even learn to read until his wife taught him, and that then he never read anything but the Word of God.  Not to say that we shouldn't read the works that God has inspired man to write, but just to show that the revelation by the Holy Spirit is sufficient. After all, it was all most early Christians had.
What IS important is that you ARE born again, and a child of God.
Bless you friend as you continue to seek His truth. Roy.

Royo
Gods word is not the English, Spanish, or Russian translations. His word is the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek that the original texts were in.
Our translations are very, very good but not perfect.
I am also not a Greek Scholar. But I do use a concordence or two. And I find an interlinear bible is helpful.
If you are wondering about the sabbath change I read a study on it and chose to check it out.
I want nothing more than to be faithful to GODS WORD and if that means I must do a little more footwork so be it.
Don't believe it because I say it check it out. I did just that and I am not a greek scholar.
I only trust Gods word, rarely do I use a concordence to interpret or define a word. For me the best use is to find everywhere else the word in question appears and then compare the various verses to gain an understanding.
An excellent site is http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm
Under 'search in' find Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT This will give you the greek interlinear.
Type in Matthew 28:1
You will find that sabbath was translated from Strongs number 4521.
Don't search that number instead highlight the greek word that number related to.
Copy and paste it into the search term and it will come out as sabbatwn. You will find it appears 11 times in scripture.
As you look at the verses the Strong's number seperated the Greek from the English.
To find out sabbatwn is plural for sabbath you need a better concordence than Strong's. It took some work but I found it in a Thayers lexicon.
I am only declairing the word of God.
If you believe it is necessary to make a choice then please tell me how a baby can do that.
When Pastors, teachers, and people you trust tell you something enough times you begin to believe it.
I have given verses to check out.
You can believe what you have been taught but I will believe the word of God.

God bless you.   Roy.

May He bless you also. LC

Left Coast,

You have some serious errors in your therology, I would backtrack, and start at the beginning, if I were you.  

You really should pray the Spirit give you understanding.

It is clear to me, you take a serious detour, at the verse you keep bringing up.

1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

I have given a verse to you, which you simply ignore;

That, God commands men to believe is a fact, however, His work in the elect, is that they will hear  Him whom He has sent.  And not only will they hear they will believe, these are promises, to those who are chosen.

Mk 4
 23  If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
24  And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
25  For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

Phil 1
29  For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

God commands men to believe, and equips them to believe, for the purpose that God may be glorified, and that man might know that the Faith with which he believed came NOT from himself, but from God, this is why, Eph 2:8-9, says;

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I never misquoted you at all, you said; at reply #39

"Believing is the result of salvation not the cause."  

This  IS erroneous, Salvation is the cause of the Faith God gives to believe in the finished works of Jesus.

As you can see from Phil1:29, it is given of God to men to believe, for the sake of Jesus, and this belief in Gods Word, produces Salvation.  

And this is God's work, which He produces in every man in which it is given to believe.

Jesus said, "If you love me keep my commandments" (Jhn 14:15)  Those who believe and love the Lord will keep hus commandments NOT because they must to be saved, but because they are saved.

If God gives men the gift of belief in His Word, by Faith, it stands to reason, babies are saved according to His will also, even though you may not understand how it is, they believe,  

Somehow or other you have a distorted sense of the innate  ability babies possess, if babies are able to recognize and communicate with their own mothers, what makes you think, they cannot believe nor communicate with God.
 
As for John the Bapist, this is the only passage in scripture where we are told  "the babe leaped in her womb;" and the next portion of scripture tells us; "and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:" and the only explanation given as to why the babe leaped in Elisabeth 's  womb was because;

44  For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.  

So, he leaped in the womb "for joy", nothing else is said to make anyone believe he was saved here.

So, you see only by adding to the scriptures can you prove what is not given to understand.

You don't get the idea John the Baptist was saved herein, and there is no other passage in scripture that addresses, the idea he was filled by the Holy Spirit while in his mothers womb, it is only your imagination, that is getting the best of you here.

You need to reconsider your thology, and study the scriptures, after putting aside all your preconceived notions (birds nest, you can't fish with this gob of line, it is a mess), that salvation precedes believing.

Blessings,


Royo,


Although "trust" connotes with the idea of "believing" as used in Eph 1:12, Cor 1:9-10 the word  trust, is mostly associated with placing a confident hope in Christ, without commitment on ones part.

While the word "believe" as used in these key scriptures, is defined to Trust in God with commitment, obedience and faith (Jhn 14:1, Rom 10:9-11, Jas 2:18-20) When God grants repentance , he gives the Faith necessary to believe to the saving of the soul. (Heb 10:39)  One who believes is willing to obey God, to put ones life in His hands, this belief is essential for Eternal Life and Christian Living.  (Jhn 20:31)

So, the choice to trust is the beginning in the road,  to being born again, but that is not the object, since the scriptures tell us our trust, hope and faith is in Jesus Christ, not necessarily to be born again; being "Born Again" is the result of forgiveness of sin and faith in Christ, and having been sealed by the Spirit of God.

Blessing

Petro

Amen Petro!  Obedience is the hallmark of the believer's life.  It is what God demands of us all as a whole.  As for being a Calvinist...I'm a biblicist.  ;D

Blessings brother!

Again, Petro, my brother, I would agree.
Being born again IS NOT the object. When I asked Jesus to be my Lord and Savior, I understood little about being born again. I just had read His Word, saw I needed salvation, and put my trust in what I had read about Jesus. God had given me the faith to believe what I was reading, then what I needed to trust in Jesus as my Savior.
All this between just me and Him, in my room. I had as yet to try to find a church.
Bless you brother.  Roy.

Actually, I know what you say is true, because my experience was very similar to this.

This truth,  only proves that it is God the Spirit, that does all the work perfectly according to the will of God, in the right sequence, otherwise I know I would have screw it up.

Amen, to you............

And God Bless,

Petro

Allinall,

BIBLICIST...........OK I like that better....

Blessings to you..also.....


In Christ,

Petro

Just a reminder- born again not by the will of man nor of flesh, but of God.

aw

aw

Amen.. to that, here is another one;

1 Pet 2
23  Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


Blessings,

Petro

Petro
You said I ignored the verse you gave me. What verse are you talking about? I thought you wanted me to answer Ephesians 1:13
Was there another? I did try to answer it in Post 54
I hardly think I was silent on the verse. It may not have been the answer you wanted but I did answer it. Was it too wordy or complicated? I would be happy to try and reword it.

Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying when you said this on post 44.Because you included the quotation marks and it was very similar to what I said in post 39 Was I wrong in assuming you were trying to quote the words above.
Yes, the bible does teach that believing is the result of salvation. It would be impossible for any action on our part to cause salvation because babies could never believe. I don’t know if you have children but if you have ever seen a baby as it is just born you would understand it wouldn’t have the ability to believe. That does not mean that God does not save them He Does. He does it by circumcising the babies heart, he takes the heart of stone out and gives the baby a heart of flesh.
On the other hand God gives us the eyes to see and the ears to hear.  
I bought a book of sermons by C.H. Spurgeon. I had never read any of his works before.
I randomly picked a sermon. It was on infant salvation. I have quoted it to you. It wasn’t my idea babies were saved in the womb, Spurgeon believed it too (see reply #37). You said, I take it you think Spurgeon’s mind was getting the best of him too.

Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

First He takes out the heart of stone and gives us a heart of flesh. You are now born again. SAVED

Ezekiel 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
 
NOW we can walk in his statutes. We can keep His commandments including the commandment to believe.

1 John 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Ezekiel 11:19 is salvation
Ezekiel 11:20 is the result.
It is summed up in this verse.

John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

I don’t know why you don’t see.
You suggested I should go back, why would I go back to something that I know now is a lie.
If salvation is based on believing all sorts of people could never believe.
In answer to the verses you gave.
Mark 4 - God has to give us the ears to hear and the eyes to see.

Deuteronomy 29:4  Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Several verses say this but this one also mentions that God gives us the Heart to perceive.
You came real close to it in this piece.
On the verse I would have changed the letters you made bold and added unto you it is given
But on what you said you came so close, that is why I am somewhat surprised at how you have been reacting. , How does he do that? He equips them by giving them a new heart. A heart that can believe. A changed heart makes us into an entirely different kind of a person. That is what it means to be BORN AGAIN.  
We are given the ability to believe by circumcising the heart. Salvation happens then.

Wrong. But I don’t hold it against you, you gave the second verse in your next sentence. ;D I think we need to lighten up.
Is there a greater Joy than salvation? Why does this idea bother you? It didn’t bother Spurgeon.
We also have the example of Jeremiah, also saved in the womb.
I get the impression you want to attack everything I say. I am not your enemy. Read what I have said carefully. We may not be as far apart as you think.

1 Chronicles 29:19  And give unto Solomon my son a perfect heart, to keep thy commandments, thy testimonies, and thy statutes, and to do all these things, and to build the palace, for the which I have made provision.

Just curious.

I live on the west coast. My step Dad lives on the east coast.
So where is the left coast?

God be with you. Roy.

Look at the map of the USA.
Canada is up top, where's the left coast? Unless your dyslexic.  
I'm in the middle state.   :)

From: Daily Inspirational

WEB SITE
Grace And The Truth
www.graceandthetruth.com

E-Mail GracentheTruth@aol.com
=======================================

SALVATION AND THE HUMAN WILL





Scripture Reading:  Rom 9:15-16; John 1:12-13; 3:16







Dwight Lyman Moody once said that "the whosoever wills are the elect, and whosoever won'ts are the non-elect!"  This is certainly true.  The human will does play an important part in personal salvation.  But the problem which ultimately must be faced when one deals with the sovereignty of God must touch on this matter of what place man's will plays--if any.

Now there are two extremes to avoid.  One is that since God is sovereign, and since man cannot save himself at all, then man has no part at all in salvation.  That is, God will save him without any action on his part.  The other extreme is that God cannot and will not save anyone unless he is willing to be saved.

In between these extremes we believe the truth lies.  It is true that the sinner is "dead in trespasses and sins"  therefore cannot, of himself, take one step toward God and salvation.  It is also true that God has given man a will, and He respects that will.  Yet due to the fact that the depravity of the human nature has also crippled the will, God must first move and work in the sinner to make him willing to be saved!  This is what Christ meant when He said, "No man can come unto me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him" (John 6:44).  This is also what is meant in John 1:12-13:  "But as many as received Him (Christ),  to them gave He power (authority) to become the sons of God (children of God), even to them that believe on His name; which were born, not of blood, not of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."  Therefore, as Romans 9:16 states, "it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."





Hence, how beautiful it all works out.  Of my own will, I did not want God or His salvation (Christ).  But He wooed me and drew me with love and power and gave me the willingness to receive Christ into my life!  Bless the Lord, O my soul!

    "I've found a Friend, oh such a Friend!
    He loved me ere I knew Him;
    He drew me with the cords of love,
    And thus He bound me to Him."  (J.G.    Small)

Pastor Paul Hume

Posted By Brother Love :)

I am sorry Moody was wrong.

John 1:13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 17:9  I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Mr. Hume wants to add our WORK to Gods grace. That is called a Grace + Works Gospel.

Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

So if it is by our freewill then we can boast, we were smarter or more humble some-how better than our brother.

Can a dead man hear? Can a dead man speak? Or Think? Or Choose?
The bible gives us the picture of Lazarus.
He was 4 days in the tomb. He stunk. Jesus called out, “Lazarus come forth.” When he came out of the grave did he contribute anything? Did he say, “I hear the Lord I’ll see what He wants me for.” Jesus called and he came forth yet there was NOTHING he could contribute.

John 11:43  And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
John 11:44  And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
 
Where does it say God respects mans will?
Lets put this verse in it’s context.

John 6:39  And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Notice He loses NONE. When God draws you He cannot fail.

Romans 8:31  What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

How can Mr. Hume quote these verses and not see that it is NOT by our will.

Romans 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

The question I ask over and over, How Can A Baby Make Such A Freewill Decision? How Can Those That Have Never Heard Of Christ Come To Him?
The answer I have received is, “______________.”

Bro Love,

I love both DL Moody, and CH Spurgeon, and I know both men were really used of God, to expound the riches of His Word to others.

And what you have posted is an excellent piece, bringing out the very truth of this matter.

As I pointed out in one of other posts herein,  "trusting" is soemthing the natural man is able to do without commiting himself, while "believing" is done with commitment, both words are very similar and close in their definitioin, but different in as much as they perfectly convey the mind of the person doing them.

There were present at that season some that told Jesus of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answering said unto them,

[color=RedSuppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.  (Lk 13:2-3)

God desires that sinners confess and repent of their sins, this cannot be done, unless first a sinner knows and understands, the seriousness of his condition, and the grave eternal consequences should he die in this condition.

Trust in Jesus which is a work of God in drawing that person to Christ, and a perfect understanding of the fact one will perish eternally unless he repents and confess his sin of unbelief, will lead a truly repent soul to believe with commitment in God's living Word.

Only then and there, can God work to accomplish that which He has promised, notice what God says he will do;

Eze 36
23  And [b ]I will [/b] sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24  For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and [b ]will[/b] bring you into your own land.
25  Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28  And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
29  I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
30  And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.

Note that fourteen times, God uses the words I shall or I will, in these 6 verses.

There is no sense in taking the scriptures out of context, repentance and confession comes first, because of what the person believes in his heart to be true, note;

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.  (Rom 10:10)

Imagine what a monstrosity God would make if he saved men before they repented and confessed.

Hebrews 6:4-6, makes it clear, the men who are brought to an understanding of the gosple can turn their backs on it, never to be brought backto repentance again,

and unfortunately,

Prophesing christians claim, that the saved can lose their salvation, and this is why, because they believe, they are saved, before they repented, confessed and believed; so logically they conclude, I can lose my salvation, because I believed.

It is a carnal, evil and blasphemous teaching, from the pit.. designed by Satan to confuse those whom, seek forgiveness of sin, on their ability and merits.



Blessings,

Petro

Petro
This is a good point. John Wesley in his work The Question, "What Is an Arminian?" Answered by a Lover of Free Grace. Made it clear that because salvation was by our freewill it was also ours to freely lose. His idea NOT mine.

Left Coats,

I wouldn't put alot of stock in what John Wesley said, he was a man God used, to preach the gosple, and God can use the saved and the unsaved for this end, because it is the power of Gods word which accomplishes what He has purposed in His heart to do.

What is interesting. is that John Wesley, and his brother were not saved  until after having returned to England from their trip to the US, of course Wesleyans and Methodists refute this very point, but in the writings of George Whitfield and others, one will find how they ministered the word more perfectly to these young men, and they were able to grasp the true teaching of Gods word.

As for the Calvin istic Doictriners, these were set for the by the Westminister Council, one need to familiarize themselves with them and consider the very word of God, to see, if the teaching is not according to the scriptures.

Thanks for your information.


Blessings,

Petro

Petro
I found it somewhat interesting that we both replied to Brother Love at almost the same time. I was just a few minutes before you.
I am glad your red highlight didn’t work. I’m red green color blind.
May God Richly Bless You

Left Coast,

Yes I see, your post #74, you ask?



I have taken the liberty to fill in your answer to your own question.

And I did it, because you won't.

Since you cannot know the heart of people nor babies as God does, the answer to this question you ask, you, are unable to answer.

Notice;

Jesus"s own Words;

Mat 13
15  For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


Romans 10, again;

9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Belief in the things of God has to do with the heart, it is not a matter of understanding with a new heart, it is understanding with the old stony heart.

This is clear here, at this exhortation; to Israel;

Heb 4
7  Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8  For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

And if you have a problem with this verse how about;

2 Cor 3
4  And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5  Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6  Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7  But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8  How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9  For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10  For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11  For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12  Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13  And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14  But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.
15  But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.

You can see, that until this day the scripture says to us, the veil is upon the hearts of unbelieveing jews, which is removed and done away with, when their hearts turn to the Lord.

So clearly, the veil is representative unbelief  (they are blind to use another word), and when belief comes, the veil is removed from their heart, the new spirit and new heart come afterwards, not before as you would have to believe.

Blessings,  
Petro

Petro
It was not a question to myself. Why is it so hard for you to understand what I say?
I do not believe in the freewill gospel. And so the question was directed to those who believe that salvation is based on our freewill decision.
People understand that a baby cannot make a freewill decision, so they either have to make something up or they answer as you did.
Yours was the wrong answer. I would give you my answer but you think I’m totally lost so I’ll give you Spurgeon.
 
That this is possible is proved from Scripture instances. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost from his mothers womb. We read of Jeremiah also, that the same had occurred to him; and of Samuel we find that while yet a babe the Lord called him. We believe, therefore, that even before the intellect can work, God, who worketh not by the will of man, nor by the blood, but by the mysterious agency of his Holy Spirit, creates the infant soul a new creature in Christ Jesus, and then it enters into the “rest which remaineth for the people of God.” By election, by the selfsame door by which every believer in Christ Jesus hopes to enter, and in no other way. If we could not suppose that God’s justice must be infringed, or that his plan of salvation must be altered to suit their cases, then we should be in doubt; but we can see with the same appliances, by the same plan, on precisely the same grounds, and through the same agencies, the infant soul can behold the Saviour’s face in glory everlasting, and therefore we are at ease upon the matter.
From the sermon, “Infant Salvation”.
The only way anyone can understand with the heart is if God gives them a new heart.

Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Our hearts are corrupt and will deceive us.

Jeremiah 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Romans 10 is explained by Proverbs 16:1 I give you both verses:

Romans 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Proverbs 16:1  The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Hebrews 4:7  Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

God gives us many commandments we cannot do on our own. For instance:

Deuteronomy 10:16  Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

We can’t circumcise our heart. So God says He will.

Deuteronomy 30:6  And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

And in recognition of this the psalmist cries out:

Psalms 51:10  Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Psalms 119:36  Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness.
Psalms 119:80  Let my heart be sound in thy statutes; that I be not ashamed.
Psalms 141:4  Incline not my heart to any evil thing, to practise wicked works with men that work iniquity: and let me not eat of their dainties.

On second Corinthians go up to verse 3, you didn’t include it.

2 Corinthians 3:3  Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2 Corinthians 3:6  Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2 Corinthians 3:15  But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2 Corinthians 3:16  Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

 What is the ‘it’? It is the heart. When the heart is turned to the Lord and that can only be done by Gods Action. (Ezekiel 11:19)
The veil represent the separation between God and Man. Go back to the old testament. Only the High priest could go past the veil in the temple.
Jesus is our High Priest when he went to the cross the veil was ripped in two. Because He came there is no longer a separation between man and God. Christ is the mediator.

2 Corinthians 3:16  Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

It will only turn when God changes it. Covered this lots of times. Why can’t you see this simple truth?

Proverbs 3:5  Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
LC

left coast,  Instead of picking and choosing the portuions of Spurgeons message on the subject, why don't you post the site, or the entire message, that we might see it and get it directly from him, instead you trying to expound it to us.

If there is anything that is most irritating is to have one i ndividual preach a message and then having someone else expounding it as thou, we are unable to read and understand what the preacher said, if you post it then we can compare the spiritual with spiritual and see, what Spurgeon was teaching, and what it was he wanted to say.

Freewill Gospel, please define it.

If it is like "freewill offering" or "voluntary offering", I would say anyone that believes in it, is believing another gosple.

I find that people that quote solid preachers of the word leave out or emphasize those portions which agree only with their theology.

You can't speak for the what where and when people communicate from the heart with God, because you are a mere man, like everyone else, and prone to error in your ability to understand and discern truth, case in point is your teaching salvation precedes belief in God, this is clearerly unbiblical.

And I suggest, it is you whose is blind to this error, because of your doctrine.

Lets take a look at Spurgeons message, you keep quoting out of.

Petro

Petro I hope this can help.
You can find this information and more at this site.
http://wesley.nnu.edu/index.htm
James (Jacob) Arminius (1560-1609)
was a Dutch theologian who studied, taught, and eventually broke with Calvinism. He was particularly at odds with John Calvin's emphasis on unconditional election and irresistible grace. The Synod of Dort (1618-19) strongly reaffirmed ultra-Calvinism in reaction to Arminius' growing influence. As a result, hundreds of Arminians -- also known as Remonstrants -- were removed from their pulpits. But Arminianism was not to be conquered. Its strong emphasis on free-will, salvation for all, and resistible grace, continued to be influential, finding perhaps its strongest proponent in John Wesley.

The most popular gospel being taught today is this gospel of Jacobus Arminius.
The idea is Christ paid for everybody’s sin all you have to do is believe on Christ and accept His free gift. You can refuse or you can accept. It is your freewill choice. There are many variations. Some add you must confess with the lips. Others require the “sinners prayer”. There are other variations but it boils down to, your salvation being dependent on you accepting Christ entirely by your decision.

This site explains the conflict between Arminianism and Calvinism.
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~gvcc/theology_notes/Calvin_and_Arminius.html  

 
Here is a little more information:
http://www.modernreformation.org/mr92/mayjun/mr9203arminius.html
Do the Differences Between Arminians and Calvinists Matter Today?
Many argue that the differences between Calvinists and Arminians no longer matter. After all, some argue, Arminius lived 400 years ago. Are his views still important and influential? The answer to that question must be a resounding yes. Armininism is very influential in evangelical and Pentecostal circles today. Indeed Arminianism today usually goes much further in emphasizing free will than Arminius did or would ever have approved of doing.

From the same website as above.
Interview
J.I. Packer on Unconditional Election
Isn't foreknowledge the basis of election? Didn't God choose us because he looked down into the future and foresaw that we would believe in him?
He foreknew us all right, but he foreknew us as we are by nature, that is, he foreknew us as folk who wouldn't respond to him unless he first changed our heart, so he chose us to have our hearts changed. But it's all his initiative, all his sovereignty first to last.

And more
This doctrine of election is a matter for worship rather than for debate and argument and it is only human pride, incidentally, that keeps people debating and arguing about it because deep down within us we want to be able to say, "Well, I saved myself at one point anyway. I did contribute something." The Christian can't say that, however. God has humbled him beyond that point, but that humility is part of his happiness actually.

You might want to listen to some of  the messages of Dr. Donald Barnhouse. You will find them here. http://www.accradio.com/Barnhouse/Programs.htm I recommend the following message. Broadcast for December 22, 2002

Another site with good lessons http://www.banneroftruth.co.uk/articles/2000/12/do_you_need_to_be_born_again.htm
Below is a portion of the lesson:
DO YOU NEED TO BE BORN AGAIN?
by Dr. O. Palmer Robertson

Think for a moment about your first birth. What did you do to cause yourself to be born the first time? What part did you play in causing yourself to be conceived in your mother's womb?
You did absolutely nothing! Like every other person who has ever lived, you did absolutely nothing to cause your first birth. No person who has ever lived on this earth has caused himself to be conceived in his mother's womb, or be born of her. It is a complete impossibility.
The same principle is at work every time someone is "born again." Most people totally misunderstand this teaching of Jesus. They think Jesus is telling Nicodemus what he must do if he decides that he wants to be born again. They conclude that Jesus teaches that if a person believes in Him, then he will be born again.
But that understanding of Jesus' words is totally wrong. Jesus does not tell this man what he must do to be born again. For Jesus knew that a person can do nothing to cause himself to be born again. This fact is plainly taught in one of the first verses of John's gospel, which says that the children of God were "born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God" (John 1:13). The teaching is plain. People are not born again to be children of God by human decision. Instead, it is of God and altogether of God that a person is born from heaven to be a child of God.

I have given you some places to check out what I believe. There are more. I thought I wouldn’t be able to share Spurgeon’s sermon on Infant Salvation with you. It is in my personal library. But I did a search on the title and found this, http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0411.htm
Check it out yourself. May God give you vision.

Left Coast,

The more you keep talking, the more left of biblical teaching you go.

I started reading this little excerpt you posted, and imediately thought of Nicodemus.  When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus He, said to Him;

Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


You said, at reply #82


When Nicodemus heard this he asked Jesus;  " How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"

What you ignore is that Nicodemus was a live human being, when Jesus was speaking to him.  So the likening point of being born again, is given by Jesus, listen to the  answer;

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

This means clearly, you can't know when this occurs, just as you "cannot tell" where the wind goes or comes, but can only "hear" it.

Then Jesus explains to Nicodemus, what he is unable to grasp;

Read this carefully;

10  Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11  Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12  If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14  And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21  But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
(Jhn 3)

Now put this together with, Jesus words at:

Jhn 6
 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life:[/b] and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jhn 6:37-40)

Verse 40, destroys your theory;  everyone which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him (Jesus), may have everlasting life.

These people who attain eternal life came to Jesus because they are given by the Father to Jesus to obtain it;[/b] and they obtain it after they are received by the Son, of the Father, not before.

Why??

Because Jesus the second Adam is a Life Giving Spirit,

As it is written, ....The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (1 Cor 15:45)

Note; that when people believe the word of God, they go to the Father, who gives them to the Son, to be saved, and  He says,

 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish (Jhn 10:28)

The Bible teaches clearly, that men must repent and confess, and this comes about only because it is given them to believe the word of God first for Jesus sake (Phil1:29), when they obey, God the Father gives these to the Son to be given the gift of Eternal Life, which is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

This modern teaching which you embrace, is the reason why you believe this nonsense, that God Saves men first and then they believe, it is just another form of teaching, (actually it is an extended teaching of PelagianISM), to distort the true gosple.

Armenianism is exaclty that a modified version of Pelagianism, but we are aware of the wily ways of the evil one who, has always has had amongest Gods people false apostles, deceitful workers, who transform themselves into teachers of of the Gosple of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

And this is the result of these teachings, which you believe......, and seek to teach.



Case Closed,

I will be happy to look thru, the rest of the info, you submitted
and comment on it, but don't hold your breath.


Petro
 

Left Coast,

I have read all of the info you have submitted, You have misquoted CH Spurgeon, as I had suspected.

Everything Spurgeon said concenring Infant Salvation was premised by this statement;

  On what ground, then, do we believe the child to be saved? We believe it to be as lost on the rest of mankind, and as truly condemned by the sentence which said, "In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." It is saved because it is elect. In the compass of election, in the Lamb's Book of Life, we believe there shall be found written millions of souls who are only shown on earth, and then stretch their wings for heaven. They are saved, too, because they were redeemed by the precious blood of Jesus Christ. He who shed his blood for all his people, bought them with the same price with which he redeemed their parents, and therefore are they saved because Christ was sponsor for them, and suffered in their room and stead. They are saved, again not without regeneration, for, "except a man"—the text does not mean an adult man but a person, a being of the human race—"except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." No doubt, in some mysterious manner the Spirit of God regenerates the infant soul, and it enters into glory made meet to be a partaker of the inheritance of the saints in light.

Just as I had been trying to communicate to you.

Salavation is Gods business, noone is able to search the depths of this matter and understand the working of it, we only understand what little God has chosen to share with us.

He never consulted human flesh in order to make his plan of salvation, it was purely formulated the scriptures tell us,

According to the council of His own will, that He might be glorifed,.................... and that is it.

While understanding the correct teaching and embracing the Article of Conditional Election in the Armenian camp, that;

"Man can neither of himself nor of his free will do anything truly good until he is born again of God, in Christ, through the Holy Spirit."

Since it is clear this is your position, and you are merely presenting ArminianISM in a repackaged form, it can only be done by twisting the Calvinst position, which is exactly what you are attemptibng to do, herein.

You do not understand the Calvinists position on "Unconditional Election" nor "Foreknowledge", you even quote a person, who adds a certain common misunderstanding of this position claiming it is inherent in the Calvinst position.  

But it only shows your ignorance of what the acronym "U" stands for, in the TULIP.

You said:

The last sentence made by this man, is in answer to the second question he asks, and this shows that he does not understand the nature of GRACE nor the basis of FOREKNOWLEDGE, for if he did, he would never make such an assumption; and, you have swallowed this statement as the gosple truth, hook, line and sinker.

Point #1, Your definition of "Unconditional Election" is errouneous, and unbilical:
Nowhere in the scriptures does it teach, God has to look,  forward in TIME, to ascertain who will believe in Jesus, in order to ELECT them.
Foreknowledge is not defined anywhere near to your definition or this mans at all.
When the scriptures use the word "Foreknowledge" it is because God who has formulated His Plan, makes Him privy to the workings of it and who is involvedare known to Him, because He Planned it.
Allow me to give you scripture that makes the working of this more clearer for you;
And nowhere is this point driven home more forcefully, than in the words used to describe Gods determinate foreknowledg to accomplish His plan (the sacrificial death and resurrection of the Lamb of God,

NOTICE carefully that it was by His  , determinate council and foreknowledge to deliver Jesus Christ to the princes of this world who by wicked hands have crucified and slain: (Acts 2:23, 1 Cor 2:8)
Election is the basis of Foreknowledge; it is not based on man choosing Christ, this is a great distortion not only of scripture but of the Calvinist teaching.  It comes from man trying to second guess the workings of God, using the wisdom of this world, which is nothing more than foolishness.

These scriptures make the point, clearly, and your preconceived notions prevent you from grasping this great truth;

Eph 1
 3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4  According as He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Rom 8
28  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

continued.......................

 to left coast continued..........

The Cannon of Dort, concluded:  "..that God's electing purpose was not conditioned by anything in man nor anything man did or could do.. (Unconditional Election)

Conclusion, God chooses man, and it is not based on man choosing God first, He chose and predestinated men on the basis of His (vs 5 of Eph 1) will and good pleasure.


Point #2,  GRACE is defined as Favor (Gen 6:8). God's free and underserved love that never quits (Eph 2:8). It is the gift of God that comes as Eternal Life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Rom 6:23).

This is why the Calvinist does not teach, that God looked forward in time, to determine who would have chosen Christ, this is simply nonsense, and to attribute this teaching to the Calvinst position of "Unconditional Election, is not true.

Conclusion, Is , IF the Election of God was determined by Him having to look forward in time, to determine whom He would Elect, then Grace is not grace as defined by the scriptures.  

Only by twisting what "Unconditional Election" is defined as can people, as yourself argue this point, the way you have..

It is clear to me, as I stated before, you are ignorant of what the gosple teaches concenring Election and Foreknowledge, you need to spend time unraveling this mess, in order to effectively witness to unbelievers, to continue in your distorted teachings is to lead people down the path of death, contrary to what Christians should be doing..and that is preaching the good news and unsearchable riches of Christ to an evil world..

God has given us His written Word that we might know the things that are freely given to us by Him, this includes knowledge and understanding of these things, the scriptures exhort the people of God to seek Him, if one lacks wisdom (Jas 1:5).  I perceive this is what you need to do.

And I will pray that you come to the truth on this matter.

Just because you do not understand certain components of the Gosple, doesn't mean you have to jump to conclusions,

God doesn't have to consult the left coast to establish His Will or establish his Purposes in the affairs of men.

You really need help, I say pray the Lord give you wisdom and understanding, in this matter.

Blessings,

Petro

Petro
I don’t think you have a clue as to what I believe. Not a glimmer to what my doctrine is.
WRONG!!!!!!!!!ABSOLUTLY WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have said over and over again that it is 100% GODS WORK 100%.
YOU ARE THE ONE WHO SAYS SALVATION IS BASED ON OUR BELIEVING. Right?
That doctrine of yours is a works gospel.
My reply #80Arminianism is belief in salvation by our freewill choice. Can’t you comprehend what I say? Why is it you can’t seem to understand. The reason I have spent so much time with you even as you twist my words, accuse me of misquoting, falsely tell me my gospel is a lie, is because you are so close to the truth. But close works with hand grenades not the gospel.
On post #33 you said,It is indeed the work of God that produces belief and that work is salvation, is being reborn.
When we are born again, our heart is circumcised, changed if you will into a heart of flesh. IT IS GODS WORK! And the result of that work is the ability to keep Gods commandments, including the commandment to believe. THAT IS WHY BABIES ARE SAVED IN THE SELF SAME MANNER AS ALL PEOPLE ARE.
Have you ever really listened to what I have said.

Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Because God has given us a new heart we can keep Gods commandments

Ezekiel 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.  

You want verse 20 to come before verse 19.

1 John 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Well that is strange, as you are solidly in agreement with this article of conditional election, conditional meaning, that;

1. God foreknew the elect, because he looked down thru the space of time, to see who would believe and elected them.

2. That no one can believe unless God saves them first.

Apparently this is news to you, but the fact is, this is the main tenet of ArmenianISM, which in reality is a repackaged form of PeliagianISM, though they deny it.

   Your presupposition is false, I have never stated anything of the sort...........


You would never get the doctrine you ascribe to me, from any of my posts.

This shows you how carefully you have been, reading my replies...



This is false also, if you believe God saves men before they believe, you believe in the "freewill gosple", because conditional salvation is based on man believing, before God can do the work you prescribe as being 100%, Gods work, but, in reality it is conditioned on mans response God saw, from before the world began, according to what you have been trying to teach.
 

I suppose your implication here is that I am close, but you are right on; sorry bud, but the fact is I have heard your brand of teaching before, and it is nothing more than ArmenianISM, re wrapped in a way, that has some truth, intertwined with deception and half baked ideas, and usually, those that fall for these teachings, were saved under one teaching, and changed from one camp to the other.

It reminds me of Eph 4:14, and those who are always being tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Jesus, warned His people; "Take heed that no man deceive you." (Mat 24:4)

I say take heed.

It is indeed the work of God that produces belief and that work is salvation, is being reborn.
When we are born again, our heart is circumcised, changed if you will into a heart of flesh. IT IS GODS WORK! And the result of that work is the ability to keep Gods commandments, including the commandment to believe. THAT IS WHY BABIES ARE SAVED IN THE SELF SAME MANNER AS ALL PEOPLE ARE.
Have you ever really listened to what I have said.
Actually you are unable to discern the truths, that I exposed for you at these words;  The man that believes the words Jesus spoke believes God, and the man that believes God's words, which Jesus spoke in the name of the Father, has the Ftaher revealed to Him, by the Son, who upon granting confession and repentance of sin, gives that man to the Son, that the Son might give him, Eternal Life and the sealing or Baptism of the Holy Spirit. And it isn't until this occurs, that anyone can claim to having been saved.

Man believe Gods word first, then he repents and confesses his sin of unbelief, it is then that God gives the Faith to believe in Jesus, which man could never do on His own before this Work is done in this heart, only then, when that gift of Faith which is placed on Jesus, can Jesus do His portion which is to seal the individual with the Holy Spirit, which is the same as being baptized into the Body of Christ.




This done in every man that repents and confesses his sin to God, in a broken and contrite old heart, broken and contrite is not speaking of the new heart being broken and contrite, note the difference, from what you want to teach.  


This has northing to do with salvation, keeping His commandments follows, salvation.


verse 20, follows verse 19, see the order..


??, you are confused , indeed..........you must think your only one that understand the order of scripture.


None of this is done to be saved, but because one is saved.

So if you understood this you wouldn't even bring this verse up.

Note that is written to believers, or didn't you know this...


Blessings,

Petro

From your post Petro:
When have I ever said such a thing? I have not and would not say anything of the sort. Please refer me to where I said such a thing.
Let me refresh your memory.
I said babies can become saved, even in the womb.
I said babies aren’t able to believe, repent, confess, or any other work you or someone else feel is necessary for salvation.
I said babies are saved in the same manner as all people are saved.
I said therefore believing, repenting, confessing, or what ever cannot give us salvation.
I said once God saves us by giving us a new heart then we will do those things.
At no time did I say One of the most frustrating things with you is you don’t seem to have a clue as to what I have said and yet we have exchanged posts many times.
Where did you ever get that idea?
Apparently you not only do not understand what I have been saying but you do not understand Arminianism either.
They believe just the opposite. They believe that Christ paid for the sins of every single person. And God has given that gift to mankind so all you have to do is by your freewill choice accept His gift.
That is their fundamental principle. It is not even remotely what you said, that no one can believe unless God saves them first. Where do you get this idea? They claim salvation is based on believing and confessing with the mouth. Sound familiar?

You can check this out here if you wish. http://calvarychapel.com/library/smith-chuck/books/caatwog.htm#01

The "Five Points of Arminianism" included the following:
1.FREEWILL
Arminius believed that the fall of man was not total, maintaining that there was enough good left in man for him to will to accept Jesus Christ unto salvation.
2.CONDITIONAL-ELECTION
Arminius believed that election was based on the foreknowledge of God as to who would believe. Man's "act of faith" was seen as the "condition" or his being elected to eternal life, since God foresaw him exercising his "free will" in response to Jesus Christ.
3.UNIVERSAL-ATONEMENT
Arminius held that redemption was based on the fact that God loves everybody, that Christ died for everyone, and that the Father is not willing that any should perish. The death of Christ provided the grounds for God to save all men, but each must exercise his own "free will" in order to be saved.
4.OBSTRUCTABLE-GRACE
Arminius believed that since God wanted all men to be saved, He sent the Holy Spirit to "woo" all men to Christ, but since man has absolute "free will," he is able to resist God's will for his life. He believed that God's will to save all men can be frustrated by the finite will of man. He also taught that man exercises his own will first, and then is born again.
5.FALLING-FROM-GRACE
If man cannot be saved by God unless it is man's will to be saved, then man cannot continue in salvation unless he continues to will to be saved.

Look at point 2 God foreknew who would believe. Not that believing was a result of salvation, rather the opposite. Salvation was the result of believing.
My statement:
Your statement:
I was prepared to reread your posts to check this but then I just read a few more lines down and you brought it up again:
Do you even know what you believe?
Believing is a work, confessing is a work, repenting is a work.
That is why I brought up Infant salvation. Infants can do none of these things, and yet they are saved too.
C.H. Spurgeon was a great man of God. But he was still just a man. It is a mystery HOW God changes a heart it is not a mystery that He does.
I said, You said, I am glad you agree with me, because salvation happens when God gives us a new heart. One of Gods commandments is the commandment to believe.(1 John 3:23)
At the end you said:
This you said in reply to:

1 John 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

On this we also agree, finally.
I have said exactly this time and time again.
Of course I knew it was to believers. But according to you we must believe first before we can become saved. If this was true why would he mention this to the saved, wouldn’t they have already believed, according to you?  

Petro I forgot to add the Calvinist foundation from the same website as above:
http://calvarychapel.com/library/smith-chuck/books/caatwog.htm#01
Those in the reformed tradition who answered the teachings of Arminius chose the word "TULIP" as an acrostic to summarize their answer to the Five Points of Arminianism":
1. "T" = TOTAL DEPRAVITY - The Calvinists believed that man is in absolute bondage to sin and Satan, unable to exercise his own will to trust in Jesus Christ without the help of God.
2. "U" = UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION - The Calvinists believed that foreknowledge is based upon the plan and purpose of God, and that election is not based upon the decision of man, but the "free will" of the Creator alone.
3. "L" = LIMITED ATONEMENT - The Calvinists believed that Jesus Christ died to save those who were given to Him by the Father in eternity past. In their view, all for whom Jesus died (the elect) will be saved, and all for whom He did not die (the non elect) will be lost.
4. "I" = IRRESISTIBLE GRACE - The Calvinists believed that the Lord possesses irresistible grace that cannot be obstructed. They taught that the free will of man is so far removed from salvation, that the elect are regenerated (made spiritually alive) by God even before expressing faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. If a totally depraved person wasn't made alive by the Holy Spirit, such a calling on God would be impossible.
5. "P" = PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS - The Calvinists believed that salvation is entirely the work of the Lord, and that man has absolutely nothing to do with the process. The saints will persevere because God will see to it that He will finish the work He has begun.

Notice point 4:
They taught that the free will of man is so far removed from salvation, that the elect are regenerated (made spiritually alive) by God even before expressing faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. If a totally depraved person wasn't made alive by the Holy Spirit, such a calling on God would be impossible.
And point 5:
salvation is entirely the work of the Lord, and that man has absolutely nothing to do with the process.

Nothing to do with the process, not believing, not confessing, not repenting, NOTHING.

Left Coast,

Because of time constraints, I could have better replied to this portion of your post, and I will do so, now, by emboldening the words which I should have chosen that would have better conveyed the point I was trying to make.


left coast, replied at #86 Sept 18,03;
It is indeed the work of God that produces belief and that work is salvation, is being reborn.
When we are born again, our heart is circumcised, changed if you will into a heart of flesh. IT IS GODS WORK! And the result of that work is the ability to keep Gods commandments, including the commandment to believe. THAT IS WHY BABIES ARE SAVED IN THE SELF SAME MANNER AS ALL PEOPLE ARE.
Have you ever really listened to what I have said.
And my modified answer to this, is as follows from reply #87;

Actually you are unable to discern the truths, that I exposed for you at these words;  The man that trusts (Jhn 3:31-36) the words Jesus spoke believes God, and the man that believes God's words, which Jesus spoke in the name of the Father, has the Father revealed to Him, by the Son, who upon granting confession and repentance of sin, gives that man to the Son, that the Son might give him, Eternal Life and the sealing or Baptism withthe Holy Spirit (Jhn 1:33). And it isn't until this occurs, that anyone can claim to having been saved.

Man trust's the words whom Jesus spoke in the name of God the Father first, this is why the scriptures say;

Eph 1
11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth,.........................(see below for the rest of this verse)

, then he repents and confesses his sin of unbelief, it is then that God gives the Faith to believe in Jesus (Phil 1:29), which man could never do on His own before this Work is done in this heart, only then, when that gift of Faith which is to believe on Jesus, can Jesus do His portion which is to seal the individual with the Holy Spirit, which is the same as being baptized into the Body of Christ.

As you can see, trusting Jesus, amounts to believing GOD the father, and ask yourself what is it, that the sinner believes about the father??

The answer is His words, "That He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

And, That He is longsuffering, and that His goodness is what leads men to repentance. (Rom 2:4) and, since the word states emphatically, that man believes with his heart unto righteousness, and confesses with his mouth unto salvation (Rom 10:10), it is clear at this verse, that repentance, confession precede salvation.

This is in direct contradiction to your teaching, the belief, follows salvation.

The next point which I would like to clearify, since I could have articulated it more perfectly to keep you from getting further confused at this point is that verse on which you hang your theology.


The commandment referenced at the first portion of the verse, is God the Fathers commandment to believe, ( and I understand this point clearly, which you have made over and over), the question which needs to be asked is;

 "Believe", what??

This command is tied to the words, the father spoke, on the day, Jesus was baptized in the river Jordan by John, when,

"behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him."

Why hear Him??  Here is the answer, The Lord God said;

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Jesus said;

Mk 1
14  Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15  And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

The Apostle Paul, said this concerning the Gosple of God, at:

Rom 1
Rom 1:1  Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2  (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3  Concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4  And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5  By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6  Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

The commandment to believe, as I have pointed out to you, is given as a gift by God to believe the Gosple of God concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord no man is able to believe, unless it is first given to him to believe, (Phil 1:29) this is done in accordance with (Eph 2:8-9),

Now I want you carefully consider this following point, which is the crux of the matter affecting your gopsle;

Please turn to Eph 1 and the rest of verse 13; (I quoted the first portion above)

Read it carefully;

13  ..........................trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

This is another verse that totally destroys your teaching, that men are saved (sealed with the Holy Spirit) before they believe the Gosple of God.

I trust God will grant you grace to believe the Gospel of God concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

The remainder of the verse 1 Jhn 3:23, is a New Commandment Jesus, gave His disciples (this pertains to us) (Jhn 13:34)

Blessings,

Petro






 

Left Coast,

You amaze me at every turn, Calvary Chapel, is not Calvinistic in its teachings they are Armenians, and futhermore, I would point out there error on the point of "Unconditional Election, it contradicts your other quote from your post # 82 from J.I. Packer from the modernrefoemation website.

You need to get your facts correct, I would suggest you visit a site which posts the Westminister Confession or Belgic Confessi9on to familiarize yourself with exactly what "Unconditional Election" means to Calvinists, afterall this is where the point was initially articulated and defined.

It is clear from what you post you yourself don't understand what this article really expounds.

But this matters little to me since I am not a calvinist, as I am convinced there is some truth to both sides of the argument, I simply allow the scriptures to settle the arguments for me;

for instance;

Item #4  Irrestible Grace - It is clear that scripture state, all those whom God has "predestinated" to be conformed to the image of His Son, will be conformed, in the end, and there will not be one lacking (Rom 8:29-30), and as for the "elect" it is God who justifieth them and Christ died for them, and makes intercession for them day and night against the accusations of the evil one. (Rom 8:33-35), and in the end He shall gather ALL (everylast one of) the ELECT. (Mk 13:26-27)

As for Item #5 Preserverance of the Saints - It is not the saints themselves that preservere, but the Holy Spirit working in them , for the scripture tells us, He works in them to "will and to do of His good pleasure"(Phil 2:13) and that the work He began in them He will accomplish it until the Day of Christ. (Phil 1:6), if it wasn't for the God the Holy Spirit, we would be like sheep without a shepherd.

So, as you can see, it matters little to me, what Armenians or Calvinsts teach, I believe the scripturtes, and if any of their points agree with scripture then I accept their teaching.

I reject your teaching outright, that man is saved before he comes to believe in the Word of God.

This teaching is unscriptural, period.

PS  The TULIP, has never been called The five points of Armenianism, it has always been reffered to as The five Points of Calvinism.

The Armenian document was first known as the Remonstrance (protest) and later on became known as the Five Articles of Faith. The ideas in this document were not new, of course; they had been around for over a thousand years. The Five Articles of Faith, however, did consolidate these ideas into a format that was concise and understandable.

The Council of Dort, rejected the Five Articles of Faith as heretical, but as you have stated, these churches who have adhered unto them throughout the centuries still hold them to be the gospel truth.

Blessings,

Petro

Petro
I am afraid that you have forgotten my answer to your 'Left Coast Crushing' verse, Eph. 1:13.
I answered it once, you accused me of ignoring it. So I repeated my answer. I can only conclude you either didn’t actually read it or else you did not understand. I suspect the latter since you have shown that you understand little of what I have said.
I’ll try one more time.

Ephesians 1:13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Those four words, after that ye believed, come from one Greek word.
The word pisteuo.
It appears 248 times in the bible but only once as those four words.
Usually it is translated believe, believed and believing are also common.
Young’s Literal Translation can help to shed some light.

Ephesians 1:13  in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth—the good news of your salvation—in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise,

None of the bible translations are perfect. I believe the King James is the best, but there are times when the translators could have done a better job. This is one of those verses.
You have rightly pointed out that we must hear. It is God that gives us the ears to hear. He does that when He gives us a new heart. He does that when He saves us.
The reason why you run into problems with your gospel is because you require people to do something. I’ve mentioned many time babies can’t believe, repent, or confess. But too much focus has been put on the baby part of that. If a baby can’t do it then there are people who couldn’t do it either. Brain damaged adults would often have similar restrictions. Because not everyone can do these things---it is a work. And as you know salvation is by Grace not works.
The question is who would believe? We are spiritually dead. The dead cannot believe. It is only when we are made alive that we can hear and believe. There are some teachers that say our salvation happens when God gives us a resurrected spiritual body. I am beginning to lean in that direction. I think this idea might confuse you too much.

What I don’t understand is why is it so hard for you to accept that our salvation is completely Gods work, and we have nothing to contribute.

Jeremiah 24:7  And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.

Petro
Frustrating as it is I do enjoy these little chats.
My job often puts me on the road and that is coming up soon.
Calvary Chapel claims neither, but I agree they are more Arminian. I walked out of their service it was so off. However I could have gotten that information elsewhere I just didn’t feel like searching any more.
I am afraid as usual you didn’t understand Mr. Packer


It is an interview. The Interviewer was asking Mr. Packer the question. It isn’t his belief, Next he answers the question.


The five points of Calvinism was a response to the five points of Arminianism. They developed these Five points came out of the Canon’s of the Council of Dort in 1618. Again you couldn’t comprehend. Your quote: What I took from their web site and posted:
Notice it says those in the reformed tradition ANSWERED the teachings of Arminius.
I have to go to bed then out of town for a couple of days.

Left Coast,

You ask;


That is not really what you cannot understand, what you cannot understand is why, we do not believe your interpretation of how God executes HisWork?; the answer is simple, We who belong to Christ hear His voice, a stranger will WE not follow, but will flee from him: for WE know not the voice of strangers. (Jhn 10:5)

You pretend to know how God saves individuals, while teaching another gosple. Whether this is intentional or because of ignorance, in not knowing what the Gospel of God teaches,  I am uncertain, but I can assure you, the Gospel as taught by Jesus, does not square up with what you say.

You say;..... People must be saved first, and then He gives them the wherewithall to  believe. (your reply#54)

I have been sharing with you, why this is not so, here is another scripture which disagrees with you;

Jesus spoke to unbelievers in parables, so that hearing the might not hear, and seeing they might not see,. (Lk 8:10b)

But unto us (believers)  it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: (Lk 8:10a)

It is clear you do not know this mystery, of how people come to be saved............

While explaining the parable of the sower and the seed to His disciples at Lk 8:4-18, at vs 9,  they asked Him; " What might this parable be?" (vs 9), and He answered them;

10  ...............Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
11  Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12  Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13  They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14  And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15  But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
16  No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light.
17  For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.
18  Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

Again, verse 12, contradicts your teaching that men, must first be saved in order to come to faith.

And remember this is Jesus speaking.........so how is it you contradict Him and think nothing of it..

It is because you do not undertsand, that the word of truth, sanctifies those whom God the Holy Spirit draws to the truth.

To sanctify is defined as to set apart by God or for Gods use(Gen 2:3), it can be anything that is dedicated and for Gods use; and it is He who consecrates, separates or sets aside the person or thing which is devoted as such, man does not play a part in this separation, he can devote himself, but clearly sanctification is Gods pejorative, men woukld never know what is consecrated were it not for the word of God.

Sanctification is the process (Col 3:1-17, notice the words "IF YOU BE..") which God uses to make a person whole in Jesus Christ (1 Cor 1:29-31) it is part of Gods will and plan, note; and it is a mystery.,

Jesus even said;  Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world,  ..................... Jhn10:36

I pointed out your error, and where it begins.  It is at this teaching you believe;

You said at reply #54

I do not think we can believe until after God has begun His work in us. As soon as He starts His work we are saved. He never fails.
[end of quote]

Nothing could be further from the truth. God does begin a work in unbelievers, while they are dead in sin and tresspass, this is why the scriptures say;  at Jhn 17:1-21 and at verses Jesus says;

18  As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.  
19  And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.  
20   Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Please note that those that sanctified are sanctified through the truth, it doesn't mean they are saved, it means they have been set aside by the Holy Spirit to hear and believe the truth, of the word of God the end result is that they might believe so they may be SAVED,

Now,  put this together with the following verse and we see, that the truth of Gods word, is what keeps those who have been sanctified until Faith to  believe in Christ is given by God.  

2 Th 2
13  God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

This is the work which the Spirit begins and ends when Faith to believe in Jesus is given (Phil 1:29)

It is clear you do not understand this, from the reply you gave, when I posted these verses which point this principle out, In the negative, please listen again;
 
1 Cor 7
12  But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
13  And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14  For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
15  But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases:


Those who trust in Christ after they hear the Word of truth, are given MORE hearing to hear to believe the same Word of Truth, it is this process of sanctification that ultimately breaks down their resistance to the Gospel of God, and when they (repent and confess) obey the truth, they purify their souls (1 Pet 1:22) , it is then, they are able to believe with commitment since God gives them FAITH, to believe what they could not believe before, note the verse;

For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. (2 Tim 1:12)

Continued..............

Your conclusion is wrong, man must repent, confess, believe (all these are found in obedience to the commandment) which makes it possible to be sealed by the Spirit of Promise in order to be considered saved.

You simply arrive at your conclusion, because you cannot grasp that, those whom God sanctifies
through the truth to believe in the truth, doesn't have anything to do with salvation of the individual (since believing is the means of Salavtion) whom is sanctified as he is still complete helpless, you do rightfully conclude that salvation is a work of God ( I give you credit for that, and that it is all a work of God, not man),but, in the end, but you get ahead of yourself, by concluding one is saved first then believes.

The truth will always be the truth, no matter who believes it or not,........this is the truth..

If one who has been sanctified throught the truth, decides not to trust the truth, he can walk away from it, it will not change the truth, just as the unbelieving husband or wife, may leave, they are not under obligation to continue, as they have not committed anyhting to the process as yet. God knows the heart.

Heb 6:4-6, gives us a glimpse into such and individual, unfortunately, for the person that does this, they can never be brought back to repentance again, since they have rejected the very truth with which they were sanctified to hear (yes, of course God gives the hearing to hear) and they have despised the blood that sanctified them. Heb 10:29, makes this perfectly clear. Allow to post the verse;

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Nevertheless, it is written..that you might believe.. And besides you are repeating yourself, only last time you qualified this statement by stating;


I am sure you still cannot claim a perfect understanding of this..it has only been a few days since you made the first statement.

Even I can see that, your answer of which you are not sure of, is a process, unfortunately according to your explanation, it is backwards.

I encourage you to take time out, as Paul the Apostle did,  after His Salvation on the road to Damascus, he said he went into Arabia and returned to Damascus and then after three years returned to Jerusalem, no doubt it took him this time to collect his thoughts and get his theology right, since he came preaching the risen Christ with a fervor.
It shouldn't take that long, though..

Blessings

Petro

God elects, predestines, chooses, through His word. One hears, one believes, one is elected, predestined, chosen.

Amen  Ollie,

You said;

You hit the nail on the head, because it is God who gives to hear, to believe, elects, predestined and chooses as you said.

The whole matter begins with trusting the word of God whom Jesus and His disciples began spreading from Jerusalem, which will end when it is carried out into the uttermost parts of the earth.

Athiests do not trust nor, much less believe the word of God, but one must place a certain trust in it, before God gives hearing to hear, and believing, to believe Him.

In other words, one must trust first then believe, the word of God, then He gives Faith to believe in Jesus to the saving of the soul, not before.

God Bless you,

Petro

Petro
Why  is it so hard for you to comprehend.
When I showed you what I believed you claim it comes out of my own mind.
So I showed you others that believe as I do.
And still you make the same accusation.

I told you John the Baptist was saved while in the womb.
You claimed I was totally lost.
So I very slowly copied what C.H. Spurgeon said in his sermon, Infant Salvation, saying the same thing.
I am a very slow and very clumsy hunt and peck typist. I have to put it on a word processor to check my spelling. If there were any errors it was because of my poor typing. Basically you accuse me of not being trustworthy and demanded where to find my sources. You could have used Google or some other search site and typed in ‘Infant Salvation’ yourself but I did it for you, and to my surprise I found the sermon. I wish I had done that in the first place it is defiantly faster to copy and paste than it is to type for me.
You are so puffed up with pride that you have never acknowledged that the idea that John the Baptist was saved while still in the womb WAS NOT MY IDEA. You said I misquoted him, I DID NOT. You found where Spurgeon used the word ‘Mysterious’ and you used that to support your idea we cannot know if babies are saved, IT DID NOT support you. Spurgeon clearly says they are.  
What you should have noted was that Spurgeon, like many earlier Calvinists, thought that ALL infants were saved. He was wrong on this. That does not mean everything he said was wrong. He, like all of us, is a mortal man. He came to his understanding with bible study, and as time marches on we build on those studies. Many felt the bible was silent on the ‘heathen’ babies. But God in his time reveals more information to us. And so we understand now that some babies are unsaved.

Deuteronomy 32:25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.

It is God that is executing the judgment in Deuteronomy 32.
Babies are in need of a savior.

Psalms 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Psalms 58:4  Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

You can have no salvation for babies with your false gospel. Because it comes out of your own mind.
You claim that it is my own interpretation of scripture, yet I have given you several bible teachers that teach the same. I can’t recall you coming up with any that teach what you teach.
From the website modernreformation.org, I quoted J.I. Packer on Unconditional Election:

He foreknew us all right, but he foreknew us as we are by nature, that is, he foreknew us as folk who wouldn't respond to him unless he first changed our heart, so he chose us to have our hearts changed. But it's all his initiative, all his sovereignty first to last.

Yet you thought Mr. Packers belief was in the question he was asked:

Isn't foreknowledge the basis of election? Didn't God choose us because he looked down into the future and foresaw that we would believe in him?  

Once again because of your pride - no acknowledgement of your error.
You want to claim that you cannot be born again unless you contribute to it. Again even though I had never read Dr. O. Palmer Robertson before I spent some time searching for the support for that same teaching that I have been taught. Just as you can contribute nothing to your first birth there is nothing you can contribute to your second.

Dr. Robertson:
Think for a moment about your first birth. What did you do to cause yourself to be born the first time? What part did you play in causing yourself to be conceived in your mother's womb?
You did absolutely nothing! Like every other person who has ever lived, you did absolutely nothing to cause your first birth. No person who has ever lived on this earth has caused himself to be conceived in his mother's womb, or be born of her. It is a complete impossibility.
The same principle is at work every time someone is "born again." Most people totally misunderstand this teaching of Jesus. They think Jesus is telling Nicodemus what he must do if he decides that he wants to be born again. They conclude that Jesus teaches that if a person believes in Him, then he will be born again.
But that understanding of Jesus' words is totally wrong. Jesus does not tell this man what he must do to be born again. For Jesus knew that a person can do nothing to cause himself to be born again. This fact is plainly taught in one of the first verses of John's gospel, which says that the children of God were "born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God" (John 1:13). The teaching is plain. People are not born again to be children of God by human decision. Instead, it is of God and altogether of God that a person is born from heaven to be a child of God.

You, as usual, you completely misunderstood the lesson. Since Nicodemus was alive you thought he could contribute to his birth. GOD CHOOSES HIS WORDS VERY CAREFULLY. He used birth as an example because it shows we have nothing to contribute.
You are now starting to understand what I believe, but you think it comes out of my mind. You have a great deal of difficulty comprehending what I say and seem to be oblivious to the fact that many great teachers teach the same. So you continue to insult and judge, but I have been patient with you because there was a time when I also was so proud.
You have had tremendous difficulty understanding what I say, I have told you I am red green color blind yet when you address me you use red letters. You misunderstand what Spurgeon says, what Packer says, what Robertson says, what Arminianism is what Calvinism is, and what the bible teaches.
You are lost. I don’t know if you are saved, but you are wandering around with so much pride you can’t seem to see the truth.
There are those that as God draws them they begin to understand and believe. But there are others that God just saves, one minute they are wicked beyond belief the next they are a child of God.
John Newton was one example:

But God intervened in Newton's life and got his attention through a violent storm. The gale was so severe that all the livestock were washed overboard and the crew tied themselves to the ship to keep from being swept overboard. As he was attempting to steer the ship through the violent storm, he experienced what he was to refer to later as his "great deliverance." He recorded in his journal that when all seemed lost and the ship would surely sink, he exclaimed, "Lord, have mercy upon us." Later in his cabin he reflected on what he had said and began to believe that God had addressed him through the storm and that grace had begun to work for him. For the rest of his life he observed the anniversary of May 10, 1748 as the day of his conversion, a day of humiliation in which he subjected his will to a higher power.
 
Notice that Newton did not go through a period of hearing, believing, and confessing. He marked the date as the day of his CONVERSION.
Think of the paralyzed man in Mark. He was carried by his friends to Jesus to heal him of his paralysis. He didn’t have any reason to know that Jesus was the savior. He saw Jesus as a healer. What did Jesus do? He saved him THEN He healed him.

Mark 2:5  When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

To be continued.....

the rest:

From you Petro: Ditto right back at ya.

Being born again is a parable, for the change He makes in us that gives us the ability to hear, believe, repent, and confess. We can do none of those things until we are born again, given a new heart, had our heart circumcised, been created a new creature in Christ Jesus, etc.
You have a salvation plan that is only available to people who are developed enough to accomplish. Gods salvation plan is available to all He chooses.
ALL ages, ALL intelligence levels, ALL peoples, it is not limited as yours is.  
Sanctified does not mean saved:

1 Corinthians 7:14  For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

All sorts of believing people have spouses that are not saved yet by Gods word they are sanctified. It does not mean they will become saved for most do not.
While it is true that such a spouse can become saved BY GODS ACTION they are not saved simply because the word is repeated again and again.
Yes God uses His word, and yes Hearing is necessary, but where you have gone astray is when you don’t realize that it is GOD that gives us the understanding by changing us. That change cannot be refused or altered.
That change is salvation.
John Bunyan claimed we were saved before we were born. Then we were converted. He recognized that God cannot fail.
You say: This salvation plan of yours is not available to babies thus it is FALSE.
God does not have a salvation plan in which babies are not saved.
YOU HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO ANSWER THIS FUNDEMENTAL FLAW IN YOUR TEACHING. “We cannot know” as you like to put it is a cop out for the flaw that exists in your gospel.
Even if babies were saved in some other manner, and they are not, because babies can not do YOUR requirements it is thus a WORKS Gospel.
Where did you ever get such an idea like you have any way?
The point with the word ‘pisteuo’ being translated this one time the way in which it was, is most likely it was mistranslated. The translators did a very good job but they were human.
It could easily been translated ‘believing’ that word would also fulfill the tense that was required by the Greek.
Or it could very likely have been proper to translate it as it was done in Young’s Literal Translation:

Ephesians 1:13  in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth—the good news of your salvation—in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise,

When you read it this way, which is a very proper translation, you can begin to understand what was meant.
When God gives us the ears to hear, by saving us, the gospel we are able to believe.

This is harmonious with verse 11:

Ephesians 1:11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

The entire work is by his will not ours as you seem to want to do.
No true student of the bible would EVER claim to have a perfect understanding of the bible. Only the very proud make such a claim.
If you want to claim that you must believe and confess and repent to become saved go ahead and do that but don’t claim to be a Calvinist because you are not.

Let me try one more time to lay it out for you.

Man is spiritually dead. We are dead in trespasses and sins. The dead don’t hear, see, think, or in any way do any thing. God must give us life, this is called born again. That is how we have the eyes to see and the ears to hear the gospel.
God uses Lazarus as a parable to explain this.
Lazarus was in the grave 4 days, he stunk.
Jesus commanded him to come out, and he did.
Could he hear? No! He was dead.
Could he believe? No! He was dead.
Could he confess? No! He was dead.  
Could he repent? No! He was dead.
In like manner God calls us out and we cannot refuse. When He calls He will not fail we are saved.

Where many fail is by isolating scripture. When John the Baptist saw Jesus and exclaimed, behold the Lamb of God, we knew he didn’t think Jesus was an animal because we have more scripture to explain it.
The command to believe and the command to circumcise our hearts are the same and we can do neither.
But God gives companion verses.

Deuteronomy 10:16  Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

We can’t cut the sin nature out of our heart. Only God can do that, so he gives us the solution:  

Deuteronomy 30:6  And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

This next verse is important to you, but it needs the companion verse.

Romans 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


The companion verse:

Proverbs 16:1  The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Notice that it is God that does the work.

John 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Sounds like all we need to do is believe. But we’re spiritually dead. We can’t believe.
This is similar to the commandments in the old testament telling Israel if they don’t sin they will have eternal life. We can’t do it.
So the companion verse.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Again Gods work.
Freewill believers often look at:

John 1:12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

You haven’t used this verse. I think one of the reasons I have hope for you is because you know that we can’t receive him.
Generally it is said that Christ died for everyone and all we have to do is receive the free gift. But this verse also has a companion verse.

John 3:27  John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

Yes it is Gods action that we receive Christ.

Finally I keep hammering this home.
It is Gods Commandment to believe.
WE ARE ONLY ABLE TO KEEP GODS COMMANDMENTS IN OUR HEART AFTER HE HAS TAKEN OUT THE HEART OF STONE AND GIVEN US A HEART OF FLESH.


James 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Hey Guys!

Isn't it wonderful to be saved and to know that God chose us, loves us, died for us, and made this wonder possible?  :)

When Adam and Eve transgressed God; God asked them what they had done. If God had predestined or preordained would He ask such a question? Would He not know since He ordained and destined their disobedience?

 Genesis3:9.  And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
 10.  And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
 11.  And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
 12.  And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
 13.  And: the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
 14.  And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Lefts Coast

You sound like a broken record, Bro, this is not the only command God gave man. God commandeth all men every where to repent.... Acts 17:30

You are so confused you don't know what Spurgeon said, and what I have written for you.

God gives hearing to hear His  Word , faith to trust and believe, and everything else men need to come to Jesus by faith, that they might receive the gift of eternal life, and He does it, for those whom he did foreknow (Rom 8:29-30) while they are dead in sin and trespass, because Jesus Christ died for us while we were yet sinners,(Rom 5:8-10)  and we are saved by His life, which is our HOPE.

We who are saved speak boldly, claiming salvation (because we believe Gods Word), as though we possess it presently, but in reality we possess the first fruits of our salvation which if the Spirit of God, which is the earnest of our inheritance waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (Rom 8:23)

So we are actually saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. (Rom 8:24-25)

It seeems to me you build your doctrine on two verses, 1 Jhn 3:23 and James 2:19 is the other one.

The natural man who can receive nothing from God, nor understand anything, he can trust the Word of God and  repent of their sin of unbelief, when God the Spirit works in the drawing of that man to the truth;  what is the truth??

That we are all sinners, are dead in sin, and those who are willing are given hearing to hear the Gospel;

2 Cor 15
1  Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2  By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4  And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Note the sequence of how Cornelius and his family were saved, they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and were Baptized with the Holy Gohst.

The full account is found on Acts 10:1-48.

Note; Verses 46 and 47; They heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.  Now ask your self what did they say, that caused Peter and them which came with him, to be astonished (vs 45) and recognize that they had received the Holy Spirit.

In their speaking with tongues magnifying God, they understood perfectly well that Cornelius and the others had come to perfect FAITH in Jesus Christ.[/b]

How do I know this, you might ask; the scripture tells me;

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

The scriptures tell us Cornelius was a devote man in the faith of the Jews, the jews did not believe in Jesus, so it was in the hearing of what Peter and these heard that convinced them that Cornilius was praising our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

But getting back to this foolish, doctrine, that a man must first be saved, before he can believe.

The next chapter Acts 11, sheds light on this matter, may I call your attention to, these passages whereby Peter upon his return to Jerusalem, "rehearses the whole matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,"

5  I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:
6  Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
7  And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.
8  But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.
9  But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
10  And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.
11  And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.
12  And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:
13  And he showed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14  Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15  And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16  Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17  Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Now read this next verse;

18  When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

It is clear Cornelius herein was granted repentance, before the were baptized with the Holy Spirit, read on;

This very significant in establishing, the truth of this matter, since verses 15,16 and 17, Peter states that the Holy Spirit fell upon Cornelius and his household (them) as on us at the beginning.

At the begining of what??  The answer is found in verse 16,

"Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost."  This is what produces the begining of a new life.............. "The flesh profits nothing it is the Spirit which giveth Life" (Jhn 6:63)

A new life in Christ,

2 Cor 5
17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

If this was the only place where Peter reiterates the story of Cornelius, we might not totally be able to undertsand the whole teaching, but fortunately the Holy Spirit caused the Council at Jerusalen to be written wherein Peter again testifies a second time what occured when Cornelius and his household came to a new life in Christ.

Acts 15
6  And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7  And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9  And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

(This same Peter spaeks about this very matter, at 1 Pet 1:18-23)  Note verse 23, The new birth follows FAITH in Christ. (vs 21)

10  Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11  But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.


for this is the point Peter makes, that just as God did unto us (vs 8), the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.,......... now follows the next verse;

continued***********************

continued for the left coast***************

9  And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.;

 at 1 Pet 1:22  Peter says "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth............"

Obeying the truth produced a purified soul, a purified soul only comes through the cleansing work of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.   Note verse 23;

23  Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Since God Commands all men every where to repent, those who obey, do so because they have trusted His Word spoken by Jesus, it is these whom God Saves, by the washing of regeneration, and rtenewing of the Holy Gohst (Titus 3:3)


I have no idea why you isolate this verse, as thou to prove God is not able or willing to give hearing to sinners, unless they are saved first. It seems to me..You attempt to limit God, by claiming He can't work in the hearts of men unless He saves them first..this is nonsense.

If it were True, then everybody would be saved, unless you also reject, that Jesus died for "whosoever will come", you have a mish mash of ArmeniansISM and other teachings in your theology, and it this blending of heretical doctrines that have you so confused you can't make heads or tails of scriptural teaching.

You really,  should read the passage that contains this verse
in its entirety, it says nothing about men being saved before they come to faith.  

I told you the disciples  at Lk 8:10, were given hearing to hear and understand the parables and this itself destroys your presupposition, that men have to be saved to hear or believe, they heard, some believed (see Mat 16:16) and the Spirit didn't come unto them untli after they confessed their unbelief after the death, resurrection and  assumption of Jesus into the heavenlies..........Lk 8:10([/b]

The main point being they received hearing to hear and understand.......parables, unless of course unless you deny this to be true.

How do you explain this??    Peter even goes on to state when recalling the saving of Cornelius as occuring exactly as it happened to them "as at the begining."



I already told you I agree with you on this point, keeping the commandments can only be done by those who have the spirit, but keeping them, is not what saves them, they keep Gods commandments because they are saved.


Whats your point, Jesus said,

Jhn 14:1  Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.


His words are the words of God.
On this note I am going to break it off with you, since it is clear, you desire to twist scripture, to teach something new, I have given you the words of truth,  How that the Gospel is a call to sinners to repent, and trust the words of God, nothing else is required, as God will provide everthing necessary to enter into the great and precious promises of Gods ETERNAL LIFE..and that life is in His only Begotten Son.


Blessings,

Petro

Allinall,


AMMEENNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!

Petro

I have never said differently.
Nope I build it on the entire bible.
Maybe this will help. I truly pray that it does.
Man is spiritually dead.

Colossians 2:13 ¶ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Ephesians 2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Ephesians 2:5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Like Lazarus in the grave we can do nothing.

John 11:43  And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
John 11:44  And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

The Lord does it all.
God gives us another picture of the work He does, we are like dry bones:

Ezekiel 37:1 ¶ The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
Ezekiel 37:2  And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
Ezekiel 37:3  And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
Ezekiel 37:4  Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
Ezekiel 37:5  Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
Ezekiel 37:6  And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Ezekiel 37:7  So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
Ezekiel 37:8  And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
Ezekiel 37:9  Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
Ezekiel 37:10  So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
 
And while those two verses seem to be your only focus against me I have used a few other verses also. I copied and pasted this from post 86.

Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Because God has given us a new heart we can keep Gods commandments

Ezekiel 11:20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

You want verse 20 to come before verse 19.
It is Gods commandment to believe verse 19 states we can only keep Gods commandments AFTER He has given us a new heart. This is further strengthened in Hebrews:

Hebrews 10:16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Hebrews 10:17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
More to follow............

I think, repeat think, you misunderstood those verses. I am not sure of your understanding.
We have hope in Christ. We have faith that He has done the necessary work. It is not because of our faith or hope that we are saved but we have hope and faith that He has paid for our sins. All sorts of people believe they are one of His. It is their hope and expectation that they are. But the bible says that He never knew them.

Matthew 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
 
We are saved by GRACE. See Ephesians 2:5 that I used earlier.
We are saved when God changes us. Grace, Gods mercy upon us to take someone that is dead and give them life so that they can hear, believe, have faith and thus have hope of salvation.
You are so close to the truth with this unfortunately you think that man has enough good to trust and repent. And of course babies cannot, so you have a misunderstanding of the gospel.
Concerning Acts 10:1-48:
Notice verse 44:

Acts 10:44  While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

It is here that He changes their hearts. The result of that? They believed!

Two questions come into my mind now.
1. Do you believe water baptism is a requirement for salvation?
2. Are you someone that feels tongues is available today?

When the Holy Ghost came upon them it was then that they were baptized BY the Holy Spirit. Water Baptism was a sign they were under the hearing of the Gospel.

Acts 10:47  Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

To baptize means to wash, with spiritual implications.

Acts 1:5  For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized {baptizo} with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.  
Mark 7:4  And when they come from the market, except they wash {baptizo}, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.

We are washed in the blood of the Lamb when we become saved.

1 John 1:7  But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

That is why in the Old Testament the priest would sprinkle blood upon the people.
I am not going to go to much in to this I really am not sure what you believe on baptism.
Absolutely that is what I have been saying. When we become a new creature, born again, given a circumcised heart, a heart of flesh, we are saved and ABLE TO BELIEVE TOTALLY THAT IT IS GODS WORK.
Concerning Acts 15. This is getting old, time and time again I have shown you the scripture that says it is God that gives us the ability to believe. That is why I have repeated John 6:29 so many times. For some reason you don’t seem to be able to hear it. Strangely at one time I thought you also believed God was the one that gave us the ability to believe.
No matter how many times you try to repeat your gospel it still has one glairing hole---babies cannot follow it. The true gospel is not limited.
I did not isolate John 3:27 I tried to show you that God often tells us that we can do something to save ourselves. Since we cannot do them he gives us a solution. I don’t think it was your fault you didn’t understand my point I didn’t make it very well.  
John 3:27 is the solution to John 1:12.
Deuteronomy 30:6 is the solution to Deuteronomy 10:16.
You like to use Romans 10:9 the solution is Proverbs 16:1.
You like to use several verses that say we have to believe and the solution to those is the above verses and John 6:29.
You confuse the scripture you confuse what I say, (that does help me to think through what I say a little more carefully.) and you have confused those that I have quoted.
You say I don’t understand Spurgeon, I am sure there is some things he says that I do not understand. Could you be more specific?
You need to deal with the babies.
What is your stand on tongues and water baptism?
Is there any teacher you could point to that sees it as you do?
And when you have misunderstood so many things, why is it you can’t acknowledge those things you have misunderstood?

Left Coast,

You can carry on without me, I won't waste my time with you anymore, it is fruitless.

Just tell me?

Are you a follower of Garner Ted Armstrong...??

Petro

NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!!!
Are you nuts??????????????????
Why can't you see?
Are you a Scientologist?

left coast,

I am amazed, you used to be a Calvinist, then changed to ArmenianISM, and know you are a Hyper Calvinist, with a dash of Semi PeligianISM.

I couldn't figure you out, but I know that is what you have become, by considering this doctrine of yours.

Man must be saved, before God can give him, hear to hear, or understanding to understand.

You have wondered along way from the truth.


Petro

Petro I know what I am.
You are such a confused person you don't have a clue.
I don't know how you go through life so confused.
I asked information about you also evidently you are so confused you don't even know what to think about yourself.
This may help you, I don't know.

http://www.founders.org/abstract.html



When the original charter of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary was adopted in 1858 it contained the following statement which continues as a part of the "fundamental laws." "Every professor of the institution shall be a member of a regular Baptist Church; and all persons accepting professorships in this Seminary shall be considered, by such acceptance, as engaging to teach in accordance with, and not contrary to, the Abstract of Principles hereinafter laid down, a departure from which principles on his part shall be grounds for his resignation or removal by the Trustees."

The Abstract Of Principles

I. The Scriptures.
The Scriptures of the Old and New Testament were given by inspiration of God, and are the only sufficient, certain and authoritative rule of all saving knowledge, faith and obedience.
II. God.
There is but one God, the Maker, Preserver and Ruler of all things, having in and of himself, all perfections, and being infinite in them all; and to Him all creatures owe the highest love, reverence and obedience.
III. The Trinity.
God is revealed to us as Father, Son and Holy Spirit each with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence or being.
IV. Providence.
God from eternity, decrees or permits all things that come to pass, and perpetually upholds, directs and governs all creatures and all events; yet so as not to destroy the free will and responsibility of intelligent creatures.
V. Election.
Election is God's eternal choice of some persons unto everlasting life -- not because of foreseen merit in them, but of his mere mercy in Christ -- in consequence of which choice they are called, justified and glorified.
VI. The Fall of Man.
God originally created man in His own image, and free from sin; but, through the temptation of Satan, he transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original holiness and righteousness; whereby his posterity inherit a nature corrupt and wholly opposed to God and His law, are under condemnation, and as soon as they are capable of moral action, become actual transgressors.
VII. The Mediator.
Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, is the divinely appointed mediator between God and man. Having taken upon Himself human nature, yet without sin, He perfectly fulfilled the Law, suffered and died upon the cross for the salvation of sinners. He was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended to His Father, at whose hand He ever liveth to make intercession for His people. He is the only Mediator, the Prophet, Priest and King of the Church, and Sovereign of the Universe.
VIII. Regeneration.
Regeneration is a change of heart, wrought by the Holy Spirit, who quickeneth the dead in trespasses and sins enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the Word of God, and renewing their whole nature, so that they love and practice holiness. It is a work of God's free and special grace alone.
IX. Repentance.
Repentance is an evangelical grace, wherein a person being, by the Holy Spirit, made sensible of the manifold evil of his sin, humbleth himself for it, with godly sorrow, detestation of it, and self-abhorrence, with a purpose and endeavor to walk before God so as to please Him in all things.
X. Faith.
Saving faith is the belief, on God's authority, of whatsoever is revealed in His Word concerning Christ; accepting and resting upon Him alone for justification and eternal life. It is wrought in the heart by the Holy Spirit, and is accompanied by all other saving graces, and leads to a life of holiness.
XI. Justification.
Justification is God's gracious and full acquittal of sinners, who believe in Christ, from all sin, through the satisfaction that Christ has made; not for anything wrought in them or done by them; but on account of the obedience and satisfaction of Christ, they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith.
XII. Sanctification.
Those who have been regenerated are also sanctified, by God's word and Spirit dwelling in them. This sanctification is progressive through the supply of Divine strength, which all saints seek to obtain, pressing after a heavenly life in cordial obedience to all Christ's commands.
XIII. Perseverance of the Saints.
Those whom God hath accepted in the Beloved, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere to the end; and though they may fall, through neglect and temptation, into sin, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, bring reproach on the Church, and temporal judgments on themselves, yet they shall be renewed again unto repentance, and be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.
XIV. The Church.
The Lord Jesus is the Head of the Church, which is composed of all his true disciples, and in Him is invested supremely all power for its government. According to his commandment, Christians are to associate themselves into particular societies or churches; and to each of these churches he hath given needful authority for administering that order, discipline and worship which he hath appointed. The regular officers of a Church are Bishops, or Elders, and Deacons.
XIX. The Resurrection.
The bodies of men after death return to dust, but their spirits return immediately to God -- the righteous to rest with Him; the wicked to be reserved under darkness to the judgment. At the last day, the bodies of all the dead, both just and unjust, will be raised.
XX. The Judgment.
God hath appointed a day, wherein he will judge the world by Jesus Christ, when every one shall receive according to his deeds; the wicked shall go into everlasting punishment; the righteous, into everlasting life.

I am so sorry for you.
I do pray for you that you will come to understanding.
You are so confused.

left coast,

So what are you trying to say now, that you are Southern Baptist??

I'm not, so none of this means anything to me, and I am not interested in knowing anything about what this religion, which harbored KKK members and holds to doctrines of hate teaches.

You might, but what can else I say, you my friend are wrong!




Blessings to you anyhow..

Petro

You guys know the difference between a northern and southern baptist?

Northern one says, "There ain't no hell."

Southern one says, "The hell there ain't."

Hurumph, I am a southerner but not baptist. A child of the King who has redeemed me from hell.

aw

aw,

Good one........,

Blesings,
Petro

Petro I am a Christian. Period.
Most Southern Baptists today are Freewill believers. I cannot agree with them.
But originally they were not. Originally, they were believers in Election.
Don't be so prejudice. Satan likes to hide in all sorts of churches. He wants to tear them down. The SB Churches are very independent if some go off the deep end it doesn’t mean they all do.
Today supposedly there are some SBC that still follow the foundation. I’ve never found one but I live in a tiny corner of the world.
I left off some of the Principles because I don’t agree with them. A hyper Calvinist believes you don’t need to get the word out because God will save the ones He wants anyway. That is not my belief.
I am not a hyper Calvinist.
I am not a follower of Ted Armstrong. I don’t know or care what he teaches.
I am not an Armenian.
It doesn’t come out of my own head.
You have made all sorts of accusations as to what I am, what I believe, and where those beliefs come from. You have been wrong every time.
This is probably going to be boring but I am going to give you some of my background. I am sure all you will do is try to find something in it to show I am insane, I am not. However I have 4 kids and they have tried hard to make me insane.
I am 51 years old.
I am a retired hippy.
At one time I believed in reincarnation. A little less than 25 years ago I was told the bible supported reincarnation. Problem was the devil had removed most references and confused the others. Living and dying by the sword was one example. There are others.
I saw that everyone liked to use the bible to prove their point. As a reincarnationist I believed in many gods, but one above all others.
I decided to read the bible for truth, a little less than 20 years ago.
Every time, before I read, I prayed something like this:

God I don’t know who you are.
I don’t know if you even exist.
I don’t know if you are Jesus.
I don’t know if Jesus was just a great teacher.
I don’t know if Jesus was a con artist.
But please show me the truth.
I feel that if there is a truth, it is in this book.

And I would read. I didn’t want to be influenced by outside sources. I wouldn’t look at the headings above the chapters. I didn’t look at any commentaries. I didn’t go to church. I didn’t talk to others about this. I only read the words of the bible. I had a burning desire to know the truth.
I didn’t read from beginning to end but instead I bounced around, from book to book.
When I saw verses that said God gives us the eyes to see and the ears to hear that became my prayer.
It became very evident to me reincarnation was a false teaching.
Bouncing from book to book I often would find relationships between verses to explain verses. For instance:

Jesus removed a devil from a child and his disciples asked why they were not able to do it. Jesus answered:

Matthew 17:21  Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

This doesn’t seem to make sense. What does going without food have to do anything. The  solution:

Isaiah 58:6  Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

To loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, the oppressed go free, we are yoked to sin and eternal death. The gospel conquers sin. To fast is to bring the gospel.

I came to understand that Jesus was God made flesh. That He paid for mans’ sins.
I started to attend my wife’s church, A Southern Baptist. When I began to be a Christian she divorced me in 1986. We were back together in late ‘87 she walked out again, after getting angry at our son, I was reading the bible, 7½ years ago.
I began to think that salvation was based on our freewill decision.
My job took me out of town. As I traveled I listened to various Christian radio stations some good teachers some bad and some totally wacked. If I was out of town on Sunday I would visit various churches some I walked out on, some I learned from.  
I have worked all over Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Montana, California, and Arizona. I have also made trips to Nevada, New Mexico, Texas, and Oklahoma.
I am a photographer. I have photographed Church directories.
I would read the materials in the various churches, different statements of faith.
I would talk to pastors, deacons, and various Christians. When working on Wednesdays I would hear all sorts of sermons. Some times I wanted to walk out, but I was working. Other times I have heard good preaching and was blessed.
Often I would camp instead of stay in a motel, I’m from Oregon I prefer the outdoors. Camping removed the television distraction. I would sit with my Coleman lantern two bibles, an interlinear, and a Strong’s.
I didn’t use Strong’s so much for defining words, as it was written by man. Instead I used it to see where else certain words appeared. Many words are translated various ways so I let God give the understanding by comparing scripture with scripture.
I began to question the freewill idea. I started to lean toward the thought that God chose who He was going to save. For several years I wondered which was right.
One time, while I was working in Bremerton WA. I wasn’t going to be able to go home. I only had Sunday off. I spent the whole week praying that God would help me find a good church to attend. All day every chance I had it was my prayer.
On Sunday I went to a church the pastor gave a sermon that had nothing really to do with the gospel other than what a great fellowship he had with the church. I don’t fault him he was retiring, it was his farewell sermon. I stayed to the end hoping for some message of salvation, he never gave one. But in the end he mentioned he was selling some of his library. On the table was a book of sermons from Spurgeon. It cost me $2.50.
Back at camp I randomly selected a sermon to read, Infant Salvation.
One of the reasons I have quoted this sermon so much is because of the impact it had on my life. I read verses like:

We believe, therefore, that even before the intellect can work, God, who worketh not by the will of man, nor by blood, but by the mysterious agency of his Holy Spirit, creates the infant soul a new creature in Christ Jesus, and then it enters into the "rest which remaineth for the people of God." By election, by redemption, by regeneration, the child enters into glory, by the selfsame door by which every believer in Christ Jesus hopes to enter, and in no other way.

Next I read another sermon and this sealed it for me.
From Elijah's Appeal to the Undecided:

I may preach to you, my hearers; and all the ministers in the world may preach to you that are wavering, but you will never decide for God through the force of your own will. None of you, if left to your natural judgment, to the use of your own reason, will ever decide for God. You may decide for him merely as an outward form, but not as an inward spiritual thing, which should possess your heart as a Christian, as a believer in the doctrine of effectual grace. I know that none of you will ever decide for God's gospel, unless God decide you; and I tell you that you must either be decided by the descent of the fire of his Spirit into your hearts now, or else in the day of judgment.

I am not a follower of anyone. Spurgeon understood election very well but he was only a man.
The original Southern Baptists understood election but they also were not perfect.
I check what I hear against the scripture, I trust God to guide me. He has not let me down.

left coast,

Well that is a wondeful testimony, it is proof God saves anybody who places their trust in his word.

Which is evident to me, apparently it isn't to you, since you claim one must be saved sealed and indwelt by the Holy Spirit before one can believe.

Hyper calvinists actually believe exactly this point, that is that  God saves those who don't even want to be saved, much less ask or pray for it, in fact they don't even pray to be forgiven nor repent, before being saved, they are saved against their will, and then the do all these things,hear,  repent, confess, believe and are sealed.

This is not true because if one seeks the truth elsewhere, he will never be granted to hear the  truth of Gods word.

It don't make sense, how you can subscribe to this point is beyond me.

But I am happy for you.  I say keep reading and studying, in do time, God will lead you to understand the mystery of this to you..

Oh.. PS  By the way Garner Ted, teaches this same point that a person is saved first then all these other things are added unto him, unfortunately salvation to him and others means belonging to the church they ascribe to.

There are so many teachings out there today, one better, know and understand what the scriptures teach in order to recognize what is true and what is error, this is what separates them that are of age, form them that are not.

Because the object of every Christian is to discern truth and refute error, since it is by excersizing his senses that one can discern good from bad.

Piling doctrines for here and there into one big gigantic man made gospel message isn't what makes it true, at all.


Blessings,
Petro

Petro,
It wasn’t until I was saved that I UNDERSTOOD His word.
I had an intellectual understanding, and many feel that is believing. But there is a difference between that understanding and truly BELIEVING. You don’t understand that difference yet. I know now that it was ALL His work. I rest entirely on that very comfort. Because it is all His work I am at piece.
I had a health scare this year, preliminary blood tests suggested my liver was not healthy. My father died of liver disease, he was not an alcoholic. I considered the possibility I might only live 5-10 years. I was in absolute comfort with it, because I new God was in total control.
They took all my blood did an ultrasound and came to the conclusion the liver is fine, the thyroid is acting like a 7 year old boy with too much sugar and too much caffeine. It’s hyperactive.
Because the liver readings were weird I am careful as to what I do.
But the comfort of knowing God is in total control and my salvation is not based on my work just can’t be explained. If it was because I believed I would worry because there are times when I have doubted. If it was because of my repenting, I would be lost. I can’t seem to totally live a sinless life.
ALL Calvinists believe that. Did you read Spurgeon’s sermon that I quoted above?
Don’t you understand that we are spiritually dead. DEAD.
It is not a mystery. I understand your idea BUT IT CANNOT WORK. You on the other hand have not understood what I have been saying. Could it be that your pride is in the way?
You still have not answered my questions. Some should be very simple answers.
Do you believe that the gift of tongues is available today?
Have you ever spoken in tongues?
Where do you stand on water baptism?
Who can you quote to show these ideas aren’t coming out of YOUR head?
The next question you have shown you can’t answer:
How do babies believe, confess, and repent?