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Hello Board:

Exd 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 

Exd 20:5  Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I Yahweh thy Elochim am a jealous Elochim, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

It has been my experience that most Christians only hold to the second verse in this commandment.  However, the first verse is just as much a command as the second.  We are not to make images of animals, people, or celestial bodies.  This command further clarified here:

Deu 4:15-19 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that Yahweh spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: Lest  ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, The likeness of any beast that [is] on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth: And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which Yahweh thy Elochim hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

Does anyone dispute that my position is true?

In Yahweh's Love and Truth,

Christ's Serf

Hello Christserf,

My answer would be just the obvious: We are living under the GRACE OF GOD, not the Law of Moses.

Matthew 22:36-40  NASB  "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' "This is the great and foremost commandment. "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

I have all kinds of pictures of God's Creation, my family, and other wholesome things. That does not mean that I worship them, and it certainly doesn't make them idols. You appear to suggest that I would be doing wrong by having these pictures, and you would be wrong. Regardless, we aren't under the Law, except the Two Commandments of JESUS CHRIST in Matthew 22:36-40.

The New Testament mentions an ultimate law, and this ultimate law deals with the ONLY unpardonable sin. It is also closely associated with the Two Commandments spoken of by JESUS CHRIST. "The law of Faith in JESUS CHRIST has set us free from the curse of sin and death." Those who have rejected JESUS CHRIST as Lord and Saviour are still under the curse of sin and death. There is no condemnation for those who are in JESUS CHRIST! The New Testament also mentions a Royal Law. The Royal Law can be summarized with one word: LOVE. It's actually a repeat of Matthew 22:36-40.

It appears that you might still be mired down in the Law, so I'll clarify what I anticipate will be your objection to this post.

1 - Living under God's Grace and belonging to JESUS CHRIST is not a license to sin or to do and say anything that we want to. God's children since the CROSS have been freed from the bondage of the Law, the curse of sin and death.

2 - Regardless of Old Testament, New Testament, Jew, or Gentile, obeying the Law of Moses NEVER SAVED a SINGLE human being, and NOT ONE human being has ever been able to keep and obey the Law. JESUS CHRIST, made manifest in the flesh, was the ONLY ONE who ever fulfilled the Law. JESUS CHRIST fulfilled it perfectly, even unto death in our place and for ALL who believe and accept HIM as Lord and Saviour forever.


Love in Christ,
Tom


1:  Romans 3:10 NASB  as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

2:  Romans 3:23  NASB  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

3:  Romans 5:12  NASB  Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

4:  Romans 6:23  NASB  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

5:  Romans 1:18  NASB  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

6:  Romans 3:20  NASB  because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

7:  Romans 3:27  NASB  Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

8:  Romans 5:8-9  NASB  But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

9:  Romans 2:4  NASB  Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

10:  Romans 3:22  NASB  even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

11:  Romans 3:28  NASB  For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

12:  Romans 10:9  NASB  that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

13:  Romans 4:21  NASB  and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.

14:  Romans 4:24 NASB  but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,

15:  Romans 5:1  NASB  Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

16:  Romans 10:10  NASB  for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

17:  Romans 10:13  NASB  for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

I guess we could put our human logic to great depth on this commandment. If you think about it, right down to pictures of our family and kids could be taken as not allowed, since they are all made from God's mighty hand. The cross couldn't be put up in a church, for it originally was made of a tree, that comes from the earth. Our houses would be barren, since everything in it comes from something of the earth.

I always took this as: Putting roses under a statues of Mary or Jesus or Joseph or any of those that are put at an alter in a home or church, and then praying to it. Then again, I could be totally wrong.

Truth is that, when Jesus came, he explained the importance, summed up from the commandments: Love thy neighbor as yourselves. If you do, none of the commandments will be broken.

I am not saying the commandments shouldn't be followed, but that they are combined as one law by Jesus: Loving your neighbors as you do yourselves. In that commandment, we couldn't break any of the other laws.

I haven't had a lot of coffee so, bear with me as I try to find my brain cells and post the right words.

God Bless,
Kelly

Luk 16:16  The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.


Heb 7:12  For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.


1Jo 3:22  And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jo 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jo 3:24  And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.



Jam 2:10  For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jam 2:11  For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jam 2:12  So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Jam 2:13  For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.


Gal 3:10  For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11  But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12  And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13  Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14  That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The Bible wasn't originally written in verses, so you need to take the two verses together. The idea isn't that art or sculpture is wrong in itself, but that making such things for the purpose of worshipping them (idols) is wrong.

The Israelites made a golden calf to worship, which was idolatry and wrong.

On the other hand:

They also made golden images of the Cherubim on the ark (Exodus 25: 18 - 20 = commanded by God Himself). The inner curtain of the Tabernacle was embroidered with Cherubim (Exodus 26:31). Similar Cherubim to those on the ark were placed  in the Holy of Holies (1 Kings 6: 22 - 27) in the Temple. The brazen altar in the Temple rested on twelve oxen (1 Kings 7:25). Images of the Cherubim were carved on the Temple doors (1 Kings 7: 32) along with palm trees and flowers. The walls of the Temple were carved similarly (1 Kings 6:29).

All of these would directly violate Exodus 20:4 if it meant what you imply it means.

The basic idea is not to make idols or images to worship. Images made to glorify God or just for pleasure are not wrong.

A final proof would be that Moses cast a brazen serpent on God's command (Numbers 21 verse eight) but it was later destroyed by Hezekiah when people began worshipping it (2 Kings 18: 4).

Greets
 The first mistake many makes is that the Law was not of Moses but of God.And indeed it was in effect well before it was written in stone. The 10 commandments can be summed up as Love of the Father then love of one another.The transgression of this Law is known as sin.Christ never done away with this instead  he enhanced it by making us more accountable by our thoughts as well .Consider this aswell :       
                  Mat 5:18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
 
Mat 5:19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
      This further proves that none of the Law has been done away with.
 Secondly  Now that we are held acountable spiritually aswell. Idolatry is common everyday occurrance these days even more so. We dont direct our thoughts toward God  as we should rather we are consumed with ourselves and anything that is carnal.We tend after the things of the flesh.You realize birthdays are a form of Idolatry simply because it's about self.Notice the only one who kept birthdays mentioned in the bible was the Egyptian's and the Heroidian's.Josephus give us further insight into this.My point is we should not elevate even for a second no matter how harmless it may seem ourselves or anything/anyone else for that matter above God the father in our thought's.He must come first.Keep the end in mind with your calling. Add it all up and it =Love.So be it :)
 

Hello led by the spirit, sorry I disagree with you. You forget that  Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the Law [the limit at which it ceases to be, for the Law leads up to Him Who is the fulfillment of its types, and in Him the purpose which it was designed to accomplish is fulfilled. That is, the purpose of the Law is fulfilled in Him] as the means of righteousness (right relationship to God) for everyone who trusts in and adheres to and relies on Him.

Right there Jesus says, He fulfilled the law. Now question for you, Have you ever lied? If you have, you have broken the law, and you wouldn't have salvation, through Jesus Christ.  In the place of thew law Christ gives us a new commandment, John 13:34
I give you a new commandment: that you should love one another. Just as I have loved you, so you too should love one another.

The teachings of E.G. White are against the forum rules. As she started a cult, which is still here today.

Moderator

Led by the Spirit, when Jesus was sacrificed on the cross and was resurrected we were no longer under the Law, but under grace.

Amen DW.


Rom 10:4  For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.


Gal 3:10  For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11  But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12  And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13  Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:


Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Anyone who wants to continue living under the Law, better start raising sheep so they can have a lamb to atone for their sins, they ought to be prepared not to even walk on the Sabbath, that is hard work for many, they shouldn't go to the emergency room in an emergency cause that would mean breaking a commanment and most of all they should be prepared to her the words of Jesus:

Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.