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Divine sovereignty and human will, Compatible or Incompatible?

God's sovereignty is not affected, no matter how free or how enslaved one might be. So to pit God's sovereignty against mans freedom in reality doesn't solve anything. One does not cancel the other out. Freedom cancels out enslavement, and vise versa. God sovereignty is unaffected through all of this.

"The incompadibilist seeks to find some room for the sovereignty of God within the assumption of libertarian freedom. But incompatibilism fails badly as a way of understanding the relationship between divine sovereignty and human freedom. First, it assumes a libertarian view of freedom. Human beings always possess the power of contrary choice. Second, incompatibilism insists that such a notion of freedom is the necessary condition for moral accountability: I cannot be held responsible if I could not choose to do otherwise. Third, in this view the sovereignty of God is necessarily limited by human freedom. If God has ordained that I perform some act, I could not choose otherwise and thus I am not truly free. While this collection of assumptions constitutes a coherent whole, each is no more than an assumption. And while they are all taken as having self-evident power within Arminian theological circles, we can find no evidence that scripture teaches or assumes any of them.---

---Scripture seems to deny the very sort of independence that the libertarian freedom demands. Human beings are never independent of God. Whereas incompatibilism holds that libertarian freedom--independence from all causes and forces external to the will--is the prerequisite for responsibility, the Bible seams to assume the opposite: responsibility is the necessary condition for freedom. The gift of responsible choice has meaning and significance not because of any connection to libertarian freedom but because it is an essential aspect of our imaging God. Freedom in scripture is not independence from God and His will but dependence upon God and our faithful participation in His Kingdom.

True freedom, freedom in the Biblical sense, is the liberty to obey God without restraint, without sin standing in the way.---

---Scripture teaches that the sinner is a slave to sin. A slave is not free but bound. Any discussion of freedom within a Christian or Biblical context must do justice to this fundamental Biblical principle: sin reigns over the unregenerate heart. The sinner is not free to please or love God. Biblical freedom, the ability to do that which is pleasing to God ( John 8:34-36; cf. Romans 6:15-23; 2 Corinthians 3:17 ), Freedom from sin, is given to us by the redemptive work of Christ.---

---Jesus said: "The good man brings forth good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored in his heart. For out of the outflow of his heart his mouth speaks" ( Luke 6:45; cf. Matthew 7:15-20; Matthew 12:33-35 ). A person chooses and acts according to his character. The will is not independent of the person and nature who chooses. We do what we want to do ( Deuteronomy 30:19; Matthew 17:12 Jas 1:14), even though our characters, which are themselves determined by a myriad of forces external to us and outside of our control, determine what we want to do. Personal character is not nearly as spontaneous as those who see the will as a power of contrary choice like to suggest.--- (Taken from the book "why I am not an arminian")

So you ask, how can God be completely Sovereign and man be held completely responsible? Here are two very clear biblical examples.

Joseph speaking to his brothers who sold him into slavery said;

Gen. 50:20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive. (also Gen. 45:4-8)

"One sinful action is in view. Josephs brothers meant it for evil. But in direct parallel, God meant the same action for good. Due to the intention of the hearts of Josephs brothers, the action in the human realm was evil. The very same action as part of God's eternal decree was meant for good, for by it God brought about His purpose and plan. One action, two intentions, compatible in all things. Josephs brothers were accountable for their intentions; God is glorified for His."(White)

Acts 4:27 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

"One action , the great sacrifice of the son of God, is in view. Herod, Pontius Pilate, the Gentiles, and the Jews were all gathered together against Jesus. Their actions were obviously sinful. Their intentions were evil. Yet, the Word of God is clear: They did what they did because God's hand and purpose predestined it to take place. Were they accountable for their intentions and desires? Of course. But was the certainty of the Cross and the sacrifice ever dependent upon man's will? Never. It happened according to the predestined plan of God and is therefore completely to His honor and glory. One action, part of the divine decree, sinful on the part of the intentions of the men involved, and yet fully in harmony with the holy purpose of God, to His glory and His praise. Man's will, God's sovereign decree, compatible with one another. This is the biblical teaching." (White)

Continued...

What is the compatiblist definition of Man's freedom?

""The compatibilist holds that every human action has a sufficient cause outside of the human will. Freedom in the compatibilist sense is the contention that even if every choice we make and every act we perform is determined by forces outside ourselves, and ultimately by God's ordaining guidance, we are still free, for we still act according to our desires."

You probably acknowledge compatibilism without even realizing it. Before you eat dinner, you give thanks to our Lord for it, right? Should we sit at the table waiting for dinner to miraculously appear because God said not to worry about tomorrow? No, We go out and do what we need to do to put dinner on the table, but we still thank God for it. Even though He allows us to be part of His sovereign plan, He is the cause for it.

Here is more examples of compatibilism with the regenerate heart that is recorded in scripture. The Bible tells us that we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling Philippians 2:13-13, but does this make it any less through, by and from God?

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Jude shows the same...

Jude 20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;
23 But others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.

Here is one obvious hurdle, of many, that must be overcome by those who believe in a libertarian freedom.

(1) "According to libertarians, the power of contrary choice means that it is always within the ability of the human will to believe or reject the gospel. But if we have the natural capacity to believe or reject the gospel freely (in the libertarian sense) why is there the need for the Holy Spirit in salvation at all, especially when the gospel is preached? If you ask a libertarian whether he could come to faith in Christ apart from any work of the Spirit, like all Christians, they must answer ‘no’. In other words, even to a libertarian, it is not “within the [natural moral] ability of the human will to believe or reject the gospel.” There is still the necessity of the work of the Holy Spirit, who is the sine qua non of the affections being set free from sin’s bondage. Therefore, they are forced to admit that the possibility of the natural will exercising faith would be inconsistent with basic Christianity, since we all know that the natural man is hostile to God and will not willingly submit to the humbling terms of the gospel. We all agree then, that left to himself, man has no libertarian free will to choose any redemptive good, since his affections are entirely in bondage to sin (until Christ sets him free) and cannot choose otherwise. So it ends up that libertarians must believe that, in his natural state (which is most of the time), man’s will is only free in the compatibilist sense, since, apart from the Spirit, he can only choose according to the desires (love of darkness) of his fallen nature. Unless, of course, they can offer another explanation of why one cannot believe apart from the Holy Spirit.

Furthermore, Christians all affirm that one must first hear the gospel in order to believe since general revelation is not enough to engender saving faith (Romans 10:13-15). But if it is always within the libertarian ability of the human will to believe, as they claim, then again, what purpose is there for the Holy Spirit while hearing? Doesn’t this reveal that they actually do believe we normally exercise choice according to the corruption of nature? [We must note, as an aside, that the Epistle to the Romans testifies that even those who have not heard the gospel know enough from general revelation to condemn them because “what is known about God is evident within them” and they “suppress the truth in unrighteousness” (Rom 1:18-20).] By all accounts, then, no true Christian believes that a person has libertarian free will to believe the gospel apart to any work of the Holy Spirit.

But, having deduced that libertarian free will must still be true, libertarians believe they resolve this problem by inventing a logical scheme (nowhere found in the gospels) where God grants something to all who hear the gospel called prevenient grace, which temporarily removes the sin nature by allegedly placing sinners in a pre-fall-like state where they have libertarian freedom to either chose or reject Christ, a choice undetermined by any desires or nature. Because the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, to the libertarian, is never sufficient in itself. To grace we must add choice. While we heartily agree with libertarians in the necessity of preaching for salvation so that the Holy Spirit can germinate the “seed” of the gospel, yet to dogmatize the belief that once having heard that one is forevermore wandering the earth in a semi-regenerate state with a libertarian free will is wild speculation at best. For a biblical example that pronounces the differences among us, consider when Paul was preaching the gospel to Lydia and “the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul” (Acts 16:14). A libertarian would argue this passage placed Lydia in a pre-fall-like state where she had libertarian freedom to believe or reject Jesus. But the passage plainly says that God opened her heart to respond, not so that she would hopefully respond. There is not one instance in Scripture when such language is used (where God acts) when people actually refused (see 2 Chronicles 30:11-12; John 6:37; 65). Rather, when God calls a person or opens a heart to respond, the matter is always settled biblically. Galatians 1:15 asserts that Paul was set apart and called by grace before birth. Can such a call be thwarted? Jesus call to Paul on the Damascus road was certain, not merely a possibility. When a person hears a preacher call for their repentance they can certainly resist that call. But if God gives an inner call no one resists (Acts 2:39; 1 Corinthians 1:23-24; Rom 8:30) nor does he want to. The biblical evidence for certainty in calling, then, is clearly on the side of the compatibilist in all cases the Bible reveals God’s intent.

If we had libertarian freedom all the time when hearing the gospel then we could theoretically believe the gospel apart from the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit. Yet I have not yet found one libertarian willing to admit this, for to do so would fall into the heresy of Pelagianism. In the end, we must note, that Scripture defines freedom, not as libertarians do, but as the freedom from the bondage to sin, since we are slaves of sin until the Son sets us free (John 8; Rom 6). Biblical freedom is the freedom to do what is pleasing to God (John 8:34-36; Rom 6:15-23; 2 Cor 3:17) and this freedom from sin is granted in the redemptive work of Christ. Yet the Scripture nowhere says anything about the freedom to choose contrary or apart from our desires altogether. We either desire Christ or we despise him, and if we choose Him, this is the result of sovereign grace giving us a heart of flesh, not a result of nature itself (John 1:13; Rom 9:16). The real difference between the two views, then, is not really the nature of the will for we all can agree that apart from the Holy Spirit, the will acts according to the affections of its fallen nature in a compatibilist sense. The real difference rather is the nature of God’s grace in salvation (what it does for us). This brings us to the next criticism…" http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/libertarian.html

Continued...

The Holy Spirit is necessary in salvation, hence the idea of libertarian free will does not exist. Here is a non exhaustive list to get the idea across.

The result of the fall of man into spiritual death.

Genesis 2:16-17, Genesis 3:1-7, Romans 5:12, Ephesians 2:1-3, Colossians 2:13, Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, ( John 3:5-7 compaire to John 1:12-13 )

Darkened minds and corrupt hearts.

Genesis 6:5, Genesis 8:21, Ecclesiastes 9:3, Jeremiah 17:9, Mark 7:21-23, John 3:19, Romans 8:7-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Ephesians 4:17-19, Ephesians 5:8, Titus 1:15.

Bondage to sin and Satan

John 8:44, Ephesians 2:1-2, 2 Timothy 2:25-26, 1 John 3:10, 1 John 5:19, John 8:34, Romans 6:20, Titus 3:3.

A universal bondage

2 Chronicles 6:36 (Compaire to 1 Kings 8:46), Job 15:14-16, Psalm 130:3, Psalm 143:2, Proverbs 20:9, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Ecclesiastes 7:29, Isaiah 53:6, Isaiah 64:6, Romans 3:9-12, (James 3:2, James 3:8), (1 John 1:8, 1 John 1:10.)

Inability to change

Job 14:4, Jeremiah 13:23, Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 12:33, John 6:44, John 6:65, Romans 11:35-36, 1 Corinthians 2:14, 1 Corinthians 4:7, 2 Corinthians 3:5.

The Spirit saves

Romans 8:14, 1 Corinthians 2:10-13, 1 Corinthians 6:11, 1 Corinthians 12:3, 2 Corinthians 3:6, 1 Peter 1:1-2.

The Spirit reveals the Secrets of God

Matthew 11:25-27, Luke 10:21, (Matthew 13:10-11, Matthew 13:16), Luke 8:10, Matthew 16:15-17, (John 6:37, John 6:44-45), John 6:64-65, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Ephesians 1:17-18, (John 10:3-6, John 10:16, John 10:26-29).

The Spirit gives faith and repentance

Faith and repentance are divine gifts and are the result of the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 5:31, Acts 11:18, Acts 13:48, Acts 16:14, Acts 18:27, Ephesians 2:8-9, Philippians 1:29, 2 Timothy 2:25-26.

The Spirit effectually calls

In addition to the general outward call, the Holy Spirit extends a special inward call to the elect. The general call can be and often is rejected, the special call always results in the conversion of those of whom it was made.

Romans 1:6-7, Romans 8:30, Romans 9:23-24, 1 Corinthians 1:1-2, 1 Corinthians 1:9, 1 Corinthians 1:23-31, Galatians 1:15-16, Ephesians 4:4, 2 Timothy 1:9, Hebrews 9:15, Jude 1, 1 Peter 1:15, 1 Peter 2:9, 1 Peter 5:10, 2 Peter 1:3, Revelation 17:14.

Salvation, Given by a Sovereign God

Isaiah 55:11, John 3:27, John 17:2, Romans 9:16, 1 Corinthians 3:6-7, 1 Corinthians 4:7, Philippians 2:12-13, James 1:18, 1 John 5:20.

Perseverance is from God

Isaiah 43:1-3, Isaiah 54:10, Jeremiah 32:40, Matthew 18:12-14, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 6:35-40, John 6:47, John 10:27-30, (John 17:11-12, John 17:15), Romans 5:8-10, Romans 8:1, Romans 29-30, Romans 8:35-39, 1 Corinthians 1:7-9, 1 Corinthians 10:13, (2 Corinthians 4:14, 2 Corinthians 4:17), (Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:13-14), Ephesians 4:30, Colossians 3:3-4, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, 2 Timothy 4:18, (Hebrews 9:12, Hebrews 9:15), Hebrews 10:14, Hebrews 12:28, 1 Peter 1:3-5, (1 John 2:19, 1 John 2:25), (1 John 5:4, 1 John 5:11-13, 1 John 5:20), Jude 1, Jude 24-25.

Some more hurdles here. http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/libertarian.html

For those who love the Jesus (Who is the truth), test this honestly, that's all I ask.

In Christ

Dave

Hi Lucky


I'm not very good in the original languages, especially Hebrew, but I'll assume that you meant "God" as in 'does God force people to love Him?' Your "them" is throwing me off, though.

No, not at all. Everyone wants to worship, even the unregenerate, this is why we have so many false religions and "lovers (worshipers) of themselves". That's how God made mankind. But sin separates us from God. I would call it more of a removing of an obstacle. Then, once that obstacle is removed, God will point the way by drawing us (John 6:44). Repentance, faith, and perseverance are all gifts from God, this is why we give Him all the glory, because He deserves it. And once we have Christ in us, we will naturally we begin to take on the characteristics of Christ as we are being conformed to Him, such as true love in the Biblical sense. I would say that love is the result of a new heart and it's sourse must always be God. I would not call it forcing, very far from that.

Anything good that comes from us for the Church is an undeserved gift from God.

John 15:5 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

1 Corinthians 4:7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?


I'm limited on time, so if this doesn't answer your question, i'll try again tomorrow.

In Christ
Dave

The Calvinist view says that God makes the decision for us, as to whether we become believers, or not. Does He?

Ephesians 2:8(ESV)
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

In order to possess a gift what must one do? Do you possess a gift just because it is being offered? No. In order to possess a gift, being freely given, is to accept it? What is the act of "accepting the gift"? That is a choice. You cannot possess the free gift of salvation unless you accept it and no where in the Bible do we see God forcing anyone to make a particular decision.

Click the following link for a much better explanation than I can give: God's Choice or Ours? Predestination and Election (http://www.rbc.org/uploadedFiles/Bible_Study/Discovery_Series/PDFs/Gods_Choice_Or_Ours_Predestination__Election.pdf)

Hi Joe


No, I don't believe that the Bible teaches that God makes the decision for us. I don't know of any Calvinist who believes this.

Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Do you believe that God "works all things according to the counsel of His will"?

You must decide how sovereign is God as revealed by the Bible. Absolutely sovereign or with a reduced sovereignty.


I agree. Please reread the second post. "... if we have the natural capacity to believe or reject the gospel freely (in the libertarian sense) why is there the need for the Holy Spirit in salvation at all, especially when the gospel is preached?"

[in light of the third post of this thread] "You must decide whether man can freely of his own free will decide for Christ or is he totally helpless - really blind, deaf, lost etc., - and must altogether rely on the free grace of God."

In Christ Jesus
Dave

Hi Dave


I don't believe the Bible teaches that either.


Do they believe all 5 points of the TULIP? Between "unconditional election" and "irresistable grace," Calvinism has God deciding who will be saved and who won't be saved. If God does the deciding, then we don't.


Yes.


I believe God is absolutely sovereign. He can do whatever He so chooses. Have you click the link I included with my last post. It is a free booklet that does a great job of explaining what I believe, concerning these issues. If you haven't, please take the time to read it.


Let me explain my beliefs. I believe that the decision to accept or reject Jesus is man's only part in salvation. As the Scriptures say, "no one seeks God" and "Jesus draws all men unto Himself." Man does nothing to initiate salvation. Jesus draws all men unto Himself. The Holy Spirit convicts man of his sin and makes plain our need for a Saviour. The natural man would never even have any concept of God were it not for the Holy Spirit doing His awesome work within the hearts of man. No one seeks God on their own. The only reason an unbeliever ever darkens the doorway of the church is because the Holy Spirit is working in His life and Jesus is drawing the unbeliver unto Himself. The Holy Spirit enlightens the heart and soul of the unbeliever and it is the unbeliever's choice to accept or reject the light he has been shown, and opting to not choose right now is making a choice to reject for now.

Hey Joe

Sorry it took so long to reply.


I'll try to answer this question with the answer to the next question.


I agree with a lot of what you wrote. I believe that man takes part in much of His salvation. It is a fixed end in God's eyes, but we are to play a part in it. God chose for us to take part in it. While Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith, and anything good that comes from us is an undeserved gift from God, well..., look at some of the example that I gave in my first few posts...Keep in mind that God's sovereignty is unaffected no matter how free or enslaved a man might be. As we can see in Philippians 2:12-13 quoted below, this relationship between God's sovereignty and mans will (compatablism) applies to salvation as well. God's sovereignty and mans will, compatible...

Dave wrote:

Even with the un-regenerate heart, i've provided Biblical examples...


So you may ask, how is it possible that God can be completely sovereign and man is still free enough to chose according to the desires of his heart? I don't know. I do know that some people seek to solve this problem by saying that God simply looked into the future to see what choice man would make concerning all things, even salvation, and then decreed them to happen. Based on what I have read and studied in God's Word, this is nowhere taught in scripture and actuall goes way beyond what the Bible teaches, in fact, it contradicts the Bibles clear teaching that God does decree and ordain these things to happen according to His will and His purpose, not because He could see what what man would do by looking into the future.

Where you said "Jesus draws all men unto Himself." I don't recall seeing this in scripture. I could be wrong, but i'll assume that you were referring to John 6:44?

I hope this helps. Please feel free to ask if you still have questions are are not clear on my answers to you.

Lucky strike, I'm going to need to get to you tomorrow.

Dave

I think I got it.  ;)


This could get very deep, very fast. LOL Why do we give Him all the glory? Because God is the source of anything good that comes from us for the Church. Sometime we need to look at the foundation of reasoning that our questions are built on. Your question seems to assume that if love comes from God that it would violate our will? I don't believe that it does based on the previous post given to Joe. It's difficult, if not impossible to work out in our minds, but to the best of my understanding, this is what scripture teaches. God's sovereignty is unaffected by how enslaved or free we may be. 

There is a lot of different ways that we could look at this. We know that the Son loves the Father, yet they are still One. Would this be self love? I believe that it would be if we understood God as the Oneness Pentecostals does, but the fact that we do have a Three Person Trinity would seem to overcome this. While all Three are "One", they are Each fully God and distinct from Eachother. So Jesus loving the Father would not be self love.

If we apply this same reasoning to the question that you posed......You have Christ living in you. Does the fact that you can now grow in your love for Jesus as a result of you now being "in Him" make it any less your love? Are you not still free to follow the disires of your heart?

Remember
""The compatibilist holds that every human action has a sufficient cause outside of the human will. Freedom in the compatibilist sense is the contention that even if every choice we make and every act we perform is determined by forces outside ourselves, and ultimately by God's ordaining guidance, we are still free, for we still act according to our desires."

I must take Jesus at His Word that 'we can do nothing [good] without Him' (John 15:5), and as Paul said, 'we receive everything from Him, why boast as is we haven't' (1 Corinthians 4:7).

Something to keep in mind. It's very easy to for all of us to begin our search for understanding on the foundation of our own faulty premice, as in "would a loving God do this?", or, "is it fair?". But we need to be careful in that many times these questions are grounded in our limited understanding and reasoning i.e. fallen assumptions, I think that it's important that we remind ourselves that God is just even if it doesn't all add up to us. Macarthur explanes it very well....

From Macarthur:
"As William Perkins said, many years ago, “We must not think that God does a thing because it’s good and right, but rather is the thing good and right because God wills it and works it.” God defines for us what is justice, because God is by nature just and righteous, and what He does reflects that nature. His own freewill and nothing else is behind His justice, so whatever He wills, is just, and it is just, because He wills it, not because it is just, and therefore He wills it. Now as we think about the justice of God being representative of His character and not subject to fallen assumptions, we begin to understand that God in the nature of His own sovereignty defines everything that He does, as not only just, but perfect. The Creator owes nothing to the creature, not even what He is graciously pleased to give. So God does exactly what God chooses to do . . . that is what it means to be God.

We could talk a little bit about the idea, of course that salvation is not a matter of justice . . . and aren’t we glad for that . . . but it is in a sense because Jesus Christ had to pay the just price for sin, in order that grace might be extended to us. But salvation, of course, is for all of us who are fallen sinners, deserving of nothing but eternal damnation—really a matter, not of justice, but of mercy and grace, which requires justice, but comes to us in the form of mercy and pure grace.

...

The idea that God does what He wants, and that what He does is true and right because He does it, is behind, of course, the understanding of everything in the Scripture and certainly it is behind the doctrine of election. But we cannot isolate the doctrine of election, from election of the church, in regard to us from every other thing that God chooses to do. Because in the whole, large picture, God elects everything that He does. Everything that God does, He does because He chooses to do it and His choices are free from any influence outside Himself. So the doctrine of election fits into this broader comprehension of a sovereign God, by His own nature, doing whatever He chooses to do. That is the broadest perspective."

there is a lot of different ways we could have looked at your question, I know what I have given is very far from being thorough, I hope it served it's purpose though. Hopefully, my post wasn't so scatter brained that nobody but me will be able to understand it. Let me know if you have anymore questions or would like to expand more on your first question.

Peace

I believe (and am sure someone will tell me if I am wrong) but, God's Will is something that we choose to follow or not. What God wants from us is not always the path that we choose, if we are not faithful to His guidance. That is where FREE WILL comes in. Yes, God has a plan for all of us. But, even in the case of Joseph, that plan came to light because Joseph had faith. FAITH is the key word there in God's plan working for the good of all of us.

There are many things about God I don't understand. I certainly don't understand why my child died and God didn't save him. However, I have seen good come out of that loss, because through that loss I was able to help others soon after his death. The key thing is that, I believed in God. Even though I was angry with God, I still believed in Him and He took a bad situation and made good out of it. I will always love my child, but my faith has me at peace because I know he is in the Arms of Jesus until I get to see him again in our HOME, Heaven.

God has given me many trials. Let's just say that, my boat is on wavy waters all the time. I have 3 special needs children (2 with autism) and each day is a challenge, as I have 5 living children in all. We don't have a lot of money--in fact, we are broke. However, God has never failed to provide for us, and get me through the hardest of times. With all I have been through, I have had faith and God has rewarded that faith with my ability to help others that are dealing with the same issues. I am blessed by that.

God is God. I am Human. There is much about God I don't understand but I am not meant to understand. God is mysterious, all powerful and His Name is Magnified above all names. You cannot apply logic to God. We all believe what God does for us in a way that comforts us. I guess my point is, I won't know for sure what God was doing until I get to Heaven. I am first on the list for asking Him a few things...so everyone, get behind me! :)

Oh, before I ask questions however--I will be praising and thanking Him for all He did for me in my life!

God Bless,
Kelly

I must refere back to the definition given earlier.

The compatibilist holds that every human action has a sufficient cause outside of the human will. Freedom in the compatibilist sense is the contention that even if every choice we make and every act we perform is determined by forces outside ourselves, and ultimately by God's ordaining guidance, we are still free, for we still act according to our desires."


Again, we are not puppets, we are free to follow the desires of our hearts. But also keep in mind what was posted in the third and fourth post of this thread. Nobody has ever taken away the choice, but the ability to make the right choice is impossible unless God acts first.


But so is the Trinity, yet we accept it because God's Word clearly teaches it, even though we cannot reconsile this in our minds. God providencially governs all things. He works all things according to His will (Eph 1:11), all things work for the good of those who love Him (Romans 8:28), etc. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. ;)


I posted this in the "foreknew" thread.

"There is a distinction between God's desire and His eternal saving purpose, which must transcend His desires. God does not want men to sin. He hates sin with all His being (Psalm 5:4, Psalm 45:7); thus, He hates it's consequences--eternal wickedness in hell. God does not want people to remain wicked forever in eternal remorse and hatred of of Himself. Yet, God, for His own glory, and to manifest the glory in wrath, chose to endure "vessels...prepared for destruction" for the supreme fulfillment of His will (Romans 9:22). In His eternal purpose, He chose to elect out of the world (John 17:6) and passed over the rest, leaving them to the consequences of their sin, unbelief, and rejection of Christ (cf. Romans 1:18-32). Ultimately, God's choices are determined by His sovereign, eternal purpose, not His desire."(JMSB)


Here is the scripture used to support the five points. Can you show me which ones led you to believe that Calvinism teaches these things..

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/3562/tulip.html


Let me try this another way. What work will you glorify yourself for doing without God? What desire do you have that is good that was not given to you by God. A simple list will do.


"Predestined choice"??  I don't believe that i've ever used those words or even implied what I think you mean by them.


I think that was the point being made.

Out of time, later

Dave

Personally, I don't think anyone should write a list of any good that they do. God keeps the list and for us to claim it in this manner you describe, it would only look like vanity in one's self, as well as "bragging". We are to do things in God's Name for His Glory and His Glory alone. Each of us has our own way of following the leads of our Father, in the way that Jesus tells us to do, and only has to account for those task with God.

I do as God tells me to do. That is where FREE WILL comes in. I could choose to turn my back on someone that needs my help, or not tithe when I could spend the money or something else I think I need. I can ignore the pulling of the Holy Spirit and not pray. These are all MY CHOICE, for I accepted Jesus as my Savior--professing that with my lips and my heart. I know some that don't believe in God's calling and ignore what they should do because they would rather do what is pleasing to them. That is where CHOICE comes in. God's plan can only be followed if we follow the teachings that the Bible tells us to follow. God know us all before we were born, for He knitted us in our mother's womb. Yet, He gave us a choice on how we would fulfill His calling for our life. If we don't follow His plan, then it is up to us to reap what we sow upon Jesus' return.

Salvation doesn't come from works alone. I know many that believe that, but salvation comes from professing and believing that Jesus is the Son of God and our Lord and Savior. Only through Him do we get to our Father. You can go out and hand out bagged lunches to homeless people, or help out a stranger that is in need-that is what we are supposed to do as Christians. However, if you still don't believe in Christ while doing these works, they mean nothing on judgment day. For, you have followed your own ways for your own glory--and not for the Glory of God, and in the Name of our Precious Lord, Jesus Christ.

That is my belief, anyway.

God Bless,
Kelly

I am thankful that even when we make the wrong choice, and still suffer the consequences, that God will work it out to our good. We would not choose to follow God's will if it were not for His mercy by grace.

Romans 12:3 3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

Do you recognize your faith as a gift from God?  Are you thankful to Him for the belief you have?  Even our repentance and perseverance are gifts from God. All these things are a result of His grace (Eph 2:8-10), and when it is not sourced in His Grace, it comes from the flesh. God calls these works from the flesh filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). It is only of His Grace according to His mercy that we are saved (Titus 3:5).

Once we look to ourselves and trying to establish our own righteousness as if we have done something outside of His grace, we are giving evidence that we may be rejecting the one thing that can save us, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 10:3-4)

http://www.tpgh.org/FTGW.htm

Kelly, i'm sorry that you are going through so much suffering. Always keep your focus on the big picture, His eternal purpose, and the trials of your life will not overwelm you. This is something that I had to learn the hard way. In a world that likes it's standard pat answers, for someone who needed to know more, much of the watered down Gospel preaching was very frustrating for me. Here are a few things that helped me a great deal when I needed it most. I hope that they bless you as much as they have blessed me.

How God Uses Suffering--Part 1
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/47-83.htm

How God Uses Suffering--Part 2
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/47-84.htm


I didn't really want a list, I guess I was making a point  ;). I think..., I hope that Joe understood that. A list with anything on it would be wrong, that was the point that I was trying to make. We give God all the glory because He actually deserves all of it. For without Him we could do nothing.


Yes, we have a choice, but no one could make the right choice unless God moves first in their lives.


We are saved by the righteousness of God, Jesus' imputed righteousness. The only way we can be imputed with His  righteousness is by faith, once we begin to use "works and faith" under the title of faith, we are not speaking of faith anymore. Works, whether good or bad, will always be a result of our salvation, or lack of, but never the cause. See Roman 10:3-4.

Also here http://s8.invisionfree.com/philippians3/index.php?showtopic=194

Gotta go, Joe, are you still with us?

Dave

Hey Dave!
Yeah, still with it although that is always up for debate itself.  ;)


Oh, boy did you hit my faith on the head. I not only is my faith a gift from God but an HONOR for me to have. I have been in that dark place where there was no faith, yet God never lost faith in me. I am ever grateful to Him for being in my heart and my life! I choose God, yes..but God chose ME! How sweet is that gift? Beyond any words that I can post here brother!


Brother, I was not implying that my suffering was something of an issue. My suffering, as I see it has NO COMPARISON AT ALL to how badly Jesus suffered for me. I consider it a privilege to have gone through trials, even though at the time, it didn't seem that way. I have grown, and God has the one that made me grow. Without His guidance and Loving Hands over my situations, I know how I would be--bitter, rebellious, unloving, distant--Been there, done that. I would rather be God's Child and look to Him for help when it comes to life's pains. He has never let me down.

God has saved me from many things. I was supposed to be aborted, yet my Grandmother stopped my mother and took me in. Right there I know of God's purpose for me in His Plan. I grew up emotionally and physically abused, although not as bad as others. I was drinking by 12, smoking pot by 15 and doing cocaine by the age of 18. God not only stood by me as I went through all this, but pulled me out and used it to His Glory. Even when I buried my 4th child, He led me to build a website that helped thousands of people over the past 7 years. I have 5 living children, 3 with severe special needs (2 with autism and one with mild cerebral palsy), and I feel these children are a unique gift from Him, and know that He has given me strength and love that I could never have had if I didn't have faith. God restored my marriage. God restored my faith in churches by leading me to a place that is rich in Christianity. I could go on and on but, as for suffering, I no longer worry  but ask for prayer instead. With the power of God, I know I will make it through and somehow, with what He has allowed me to learn, I will help others to His Glory.


Amen to THAT ONE!


I think why I brought that up is that, many believe that, salvation comes from works alone. Those that believe this have not truly engulfed themselves in The Word, and what Jesus has taught us. Our paths are to be TRULY for His Glory. If we walk along side of Him, no matter how many times we stumble, He will be right there to take our hand. The walk must be a profession of faith, as well as a walk that shows the true love of Christ. Unfortunately, some don't believe this is true and stop walking after they profess Jesus is their Savior. It goes deeper than that, as you are well aware.

We must continue to spread the Word and to ask God for guidance, as well as strength to be obedient to Him. I pray deeply in the Holy Spirit every night and that is one of the first things I ask for -- obedience in His Will for me! Praise Jesus!

I have to run too. Who would have known that, having 5 kids, I had to feed them too?  ;D

I Praise God for all my blessings and can never express my love an gratitude to Jesus enough. No matter how much I praise Him, it will never compare to how much He has done/will do for us! Magnified is His Name! Thank You Jesus!

God Bless,
Kelly

   Yes.. Yes.... and YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!


              Happy in Jesus.. Tina

This quotation is a self-contradictory non-answer. The claim that irresistible coercion by 'Elohiym can coincide with the individual's will begs the question, for irresistible divine coercion is irresistible divine coercion. And irresistible coercion by 'Elohiym precludes the existence of individual will, otherwise a paradox within the chain of causation results.



Your replies are self-contradicting. Does 'Elohiym pre-ordain all of our "choices," or simply our good "choices"?


Are you referencing the doctrine of Total Depravity? If so, then I ask:

Did Christ Jesus inherit a hereditary "depraved nature" from Mary (ref. Hebrews 2:14, 17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb%202:14,%2017;&version=31;), Hebrews 4:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%204:15;&version=31;))?


This reply is a strawman argument. You are presupposing that Compatibilist Predestination is a valid "mystery." However, you have not explained why this paradox is a valid mystery, as opposed to erroneous illogical logic.


And where does Epeshians 1:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%201:11;&version=31;) and Romans 8:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:28%20;&version=31;) mention Total Predestination? For instance, how do you know that these versese describe Total Predestination, as opposed to the divine guidance of all earthly situations? The highlighted phraseology does not evidence Total Predestination, unless one appeals to semantical presuppositions inserted into the text.


John 16:7 [NIV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2017:6;&version=31;)]
I have revealed you[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2017:6;&version=31;#fen-NIV-26755a)] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

"Gave them to [Christ Jesus]" under what context? Pre-ordained salvation or delegated authority?


Romans 9 [NIV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%209:20-22;&version=31;)]
20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%209:20-22;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28161a)] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

Since this passage utilizes a potter-clay analogy, one must interpret this passage accordingly.

When a potter makes pots, he does not simply shape clay into pots. Instead, the potter starts by shaping clay, with a product in mind. After this, the potter puts the shaped clay into an oven, to harden the shape of the clay. However, while in the oven, some of the pots may break, distort, or take on bad colors, while others may turn out as intended. When the process of hardening in completed, the potter removes the pots from the oven, then inspects them. The rejected pots are shattered on the ground, then gathered into a discard heap.

Likewise, 'Elohiym shapes people out of certain materials (ref. Psalm 139:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%20139:13%20;&version=31;)), while having goals for them in mind. After this, 'Elohiym puts them into the world to develop them. While in the world, some people change for the better, while others change for the worse. When their time in the world is completed, 'Elohiym removes them from the world, then judges the person (ref. Hebrews 9:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%209:27;&version=31;)). The people that 'Elohiym rejects are condemned, then thrown into hell.

Therefore, the potter-clay analogy allows for free will.

Now, Romans 9:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%209:22;&version=31;) says "prepared for destruction" under what context? Eternal torment or earthly punishment?


I choose to love 'Elohiym. Now, how can I genuinely choose to love 'Elohiym, if I cannot choose to hate 'Elohiym? Plus, how can I love 'Elohiym, if my love does not come from me? Is not love a relational reaction between different parties?



Dave, you are denying the obvious with semantical gameplay. If you believe that 'Elohiym pre-ordains, or causes, absolutely all things, then you advocate Total Predestination.


No. We are saying "the same thing," but under different contexts, as demonstrated by this reply.

Sorry i've been so short on time that I haven't had time to reply. Kelly, your whole post was a blessing. I can honestly say that you made my day. You go girl  ::)

Hi Tina.  :)

Luckystrike, i'm out of time already. :( Sorry for the wait, but i'll need to try to get in here tomorrow. I'll see if I can print your post so I can go over it more thoroughly. Last time I tried to print something from this forum I only got the ads, but not the posts.

God Bless

Dave

Faith becomes a gift from God when we have faith in Him. His gift of Grace and Mercy is upon us. What greater gift than the gift of Jesus Christ, our Savior? No, faith alone is not a gift, but a choice for us to either have or to have not. However, it becomes a gift when we have faith in our Father for, we then receive all His gifts that come free once we become His faithful child.

I think that is what is meant. It is up to each of us to gain this gift. We only have to do one thing: Profess Jesus as our Lord and Savior. Through Him, we come to the Father. Our gifts are priceless and unexplanable, for they are infinite when our God gives these gifts to us.

In other words, you can chose not to follow God and receive his gifts, but you will not enjoy salvation without that faith. Once you have faith in our Lord and Savior and come to Him, your gifts are countless. I personally am proud to receive ALL his gifts, for I am not worthy of this but receive it because of His Unconditional Love and Grace that is given to me.

God Bless,
Kelly

Hey all,

Lucky,


God's Words is not only unapologetic, but also relentless in teaching God's complete sovereignty over all He created, every rain drop that falls, every lot that is drawn, every sparrow that falls, that none of these things happen contrary to His decree, but because he ordains them to happen. His word also teaches us, that man makes responsible choices and will be held accountable for them. The Bible also teaches both of these truths in the same breath more than a few times.

Who wrote the book of Romans? Was it Paul? Or was it God? If God coerced Paul to write exactly as He wanted, then how can Paul honestly say that he is writing this letter? Is Paul lying? If I tell you that both wrote the book of Romans, that it was 100% Paul, and 100% God, will you then say that this is "is a self-contradictory non-answer"?

When you answer this question, you will see the point being made in the first. We need to get rid of the idea that for man to make a responsible choice, that God must forfeit some of His sovereignty. This simply isn't Biblical and is nowhere taught in scripture.

Lucky, I wish that I had all day, because I would like to answer your whole post now in great detail, but time will not allow anymore today. See ya tomorrow, Lord willing.

Peace

Dave

I dealt with this already.


The compatibilist holds that every human action has a sufficient cause outside of the human will. Freedom in the compatibilist sense is the contention that even if every choice we make and every act we perform is determined by forces outside ourselves, and ultimately by God's ordaining guidance, we are still free, for we still act according to our desires."

I will talk more about this later. Yes, God does ordain these things.

Proverbs 20:24 (NASB for clarity) 24 Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can man understand his way?

Proverbs 21:1 1 The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.

Job 14:5 5 ( speaking of “Man who is born of woman" vs.1 ) Since his days are determined, The number of his months is with You;  You have appointed his limits, so that he cannot pass.

Lamentations 3:37 37 Who is he who speaks and it comes to pass, When the Lord has not commanded it? 38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High That woe and well-being proceed?

I'll stop here to conserve space.


First your question assumes things that simply are not true, and also using Jesus as a comparison to what unregenerate man has to deal with is not a good idea either. There are so many places we could take this, so i'll just start shooting from the hip and hope something clicks for you.

Yes, the verses you quoted and context say that Jesus took on the human nature, meaning the nature of all men, but does this mean he took on a sinful nature? The context says that the temptations that Jesus faced were the same as believers face, which is very different than an unregenerate heart. The temptations, as in His temptation by Satan in the Desert for forty days, didn't begin until after He was filled with the Spirit. So using this scripture as somehow proving something that what an unregenerate man can or cannot do is useless. But the problems don't end there. Depravity/spiritual blindness is not a nature but a condition that results from our "sinful nature". Spiritual blindness is judicially inflicted (John 12:40, Matthew 13:13). Spiritual blindness is the result of sin. We are all sinners and as a result we all knew spiritual blindness (Romans 3:10-18, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Romans 8:5-8). But Jesus never knew sin (2 Corinthians 5:21). Did Jesus face the temptations that result from sin, even the temptations that a sinful believer would face? Jesus didn't need a sacrifice for himself, but we as man do (Hebrews 7:27).  Jesus is fully God, and was fully man at the same time, we are not. Jesus did not limit Himself in His humanity, but veiled His reincarnate Glory. In other words, Taking on human nature was not a subtraction, but an addition to His being fully God. If He had ceased being any of His Godly attributes He would have ceased being God. So making a comparison to sinful unregenerate man because because Jesus suffered temptations that believers have is a bad comparison for many reasons. Even within the context, comparing Jesus, who was the creator of the household of faith to Moses, who was only part of God's household is a mistake. Isn't this the whole point of Hebrews, That Jesus is God and is superior to all the prophets, angels, types etc.?

It would be a mistake to say that Christ was merely able not to sin. Christ was not able to sin. The testing Proved His sinlessness and made Him a sympathizing high priest. The reality of testing does not lie in the moral nature of the one tested and the possibility of sympathizing does not depend on the one to one correspondence in the problems faced. 

I'll be back.

You were implying that because you couldn't reason out the fact that God is completely sovereign and man can, and does make a responsible choice, even though I have given scriptural evidence, and can give more, that it must be false because you could reason it out. My point was simply that you would need to reject the trinity based on those same standards for determining truth. These things are mysteries because we cannot fully understand through reason, but we accept them because scripture clearly teaches both. They are not mysteries because they cannot be found in scripture, as your comment seems to suggest.

To accept the mystery of the trinity because scripture clearly teaches it, even when we can't understand how it all fits together, and then at the same time reject the clear scripture that teaches that God is completely sovereign, that nothing happens by chance, because you cannot reconcile it with mans responsible choice, which the Bible also clearly teaches leads me to ask...Why use different standards for determining the truth when confronted with God's sovereignty?


It doesn't, that is your straw man that you are trying to pin on me because you don't understand. I'll write more on this in my answer to your next question.


What you are accusing me of teaching is not total predestination, but it's called double predestination. No I don't teach that either. God ordains everything, predestination is not the same as ordain. I don't recall ever reading in God's Word that anyone was ever predestined for hell. So let's be careful not to put words into God's mouth. We were all destined for hell based on our own merits, Him, having mercy on some to display His Glory (and other reasons) chose/predestined those He foreknew/foreloved. It had nothing to do with anything that we did. See the thread on Roman 8:29 in this same forum.


Context...John 17:2-3 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.



You are reading into the passage something that is not there. The potter analogy is not speaking of libertarian free will. Paul is arguing that it is irrational and far more arrogant for men to question God's choice of certain sinners to salvation than it would be for a pc. of pottery to question the purposes of the Potter.


Contrast with vs. 23 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,


Context...Eph. 2:8 "you have been saved" "through faith" that comes to us "by grace". "not from yourselves", "not by works" meaning not from the flesh, but from Grace, i.e. a gift.

This is for you to Kelly.

Philippians 1:29 29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

Also see Romans 12:3, and Eph. 6:23. We are saved by a faith that is gifted to us by grace. Are faith continues by grace

I'll try to catch up tomorrow if I haven't already answered your latest post in answering todays questions.

Peace

Dave

:D Thanks for the reply, Dave. However, my wife is off work for the next three days, so I will spend this time with her. I will have to catch up later.

In the meantime, take care.  :)

 ???
Hey, how did I end up back in this? You two were doing very well on your own! lol

Bro, I don't consider my life suffering. I think I would worry if it was all grand and dandy, because I was either missing something or completely dead! :) On the contrary my life, with God in control is very blessed. As long as I have Jesus in my life, there is no suffering here. I would be suffering without Him!

Lucky, your wife is very blessed! The way that you worded how precious you are spending the time that God gave you made me smile! Have a great time spending time together. See you when you get back.

God Bless,
Kelly

Luckystrike wrote:
 

No problem, I have some catching up to do anyways.

Kelly wrote:

 ??? Now i'm confused. Wait...I was replying to your last thread about faith. A few posts before that I thought that you claimed to believe that faith was a gift from God, but in your last post you seemed to be backtracking a bit "No, faith alone is not a gift, but a choice for us to either have or to have not. However, it becomes a gift when we have faith in our Father for, we then receive all His gifts that come free once we become His faithful child.
applying some "I came to faith on my own, but then thanked God afterward" reasoning. That's all. Nothing to do with suffering.

I'm on a public computer so I'm limited on time most of the time. What I usually do is print out the post so I can answer the questions at home and then just type them in later. But printing out the posts on this forum has become very difficult for some reason, but I did find a way around it, it just took a while to figure it out.

Peace

Dave

I don't believe it is hollow. I think it would be wrong to assume that it is. Do you take God at His Word?

1 Timothy 1:8-9 8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and Grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, He saved us. Paul says to share with him in the sufferings for the Gospel according...to the power of God.

Eph. 1:4 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

Genesis 20:6 And God said to him in a dream, “Yes, I know that you did this in the integrity of your heart. For I also withheld you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her.(think about this one for a minute)

Exodus 34:24 For I will cast out the nations before you and enlarge your borders; neither will any man covet your land when you go up to appear before the LORD your God three times in the year.

Psalm 33:10 The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; He makes the plans of the peoples of no effect. 11 The counsel of the LORD stands forever, The plans of His heart to all generations.

Lucky, what people are doing is taking one of the great truths of God's Word that has offered Great comfort to Christians since the Gospel began to be preached and traded it in for a philosophy that has nothing to do with God's Word. This Freedom of mans will, as you define it, is nowhere taught in scripture. To use that philosophy as a starting point and as some kind of grid for all other doctrines to be tested by, and if they fail this test they are rejected, even when the Bible speaks so clearly on God's sovereignty over all He created, is a mistake.

When a tragedy happens in my life I take comfort in knowing that God is in control. Start out with Biblical truths and build from them, comparing scripture with scripture, because God's Word never lies.

Isaiah 45:7 7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.’

Isaiah 46:10 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’

Gotta Go, have fun in your time with your wife Lucky,

Dave

What does the Bible say about God's sovereignty, election, predestination, and man's free will?

 

 
 See this page in: Spanish (Español)
WHAT IS GOD’S SOVEREIGNTY?
Sovereignty is God's absolute and exclusive right to exercise authority in the universe (I Chron 29:11-12; I Sam 2:6-8; Psa 50:10-11). He holds this prerogative because of the perfections of His character and because of His position as creator and governor of the universe. As creator, His dominion is perfect and His decrees are final. Because of his authority as governor, He is to be obeyed.

WHAT ARE THE DECREES OF GOD?

The decrees of God are a name for His eternal purpose, based on His most wise and holy counsel. By these decrees, He freely and unchangeably ordained all that comes to pass. His decrees include both those things that are ordained efficaciously (that is, by God using His power to produce an intended effect) and those that are ordained permissively.

WERE THERE SEVERAL DECREES?

To speak precisely, no. Some prefer to use the singular term "decree." God has one plan, in which He used His ability to be fully aware of past, present and future simultaneously. He saw it all at once, and He ordained it all at once.
However, to study it and discuss it, we separate the parts that were included in it. God's plan included the decision to:


Create all - including angels and all humans;
Permit the fall - of both Satan and his angels, and Adam;
Provide salvation - for all people (John 1:29);
Elect some (those who believe), and leave in just condemnation those who do not believe (John 1:11-13);
Apply salvation - to all who believe (John 5:24).
WHAT ARE THE TWO OUTSTANDING PROBLEMS UNDER THE QUESTION OF DECREES?

The presence of sin in the world.

If God is the efficient cause of all that is, then He is the author of sin; and if He is the author of sin, how can it be morally right for Him to condemn man to an endless hell for doing what He caused him to do?

The freedom of the will.
Does the decree to save some overrule the freedom of the human will? Does God simply choose me to be saved, or do I have the freedom to choose for or against Him?
HOW DO WE ANSWER THE PROBLEM OF THE PRESENCE OF SIN IN THE WORLD?
We need to distinguish between efficacious decrees, which actually make things happen through physical causes, and permissive decrees, which God does not actually promote. His permissive will permits Him to permit whatever He thinks fit to permit (or to not hinder). Whatever He permits, He also intends to regulate and use ultimately to bring about wise and great purposes of His own.

DID GOD KNOW WHAT HE WAS GOING TO DO ABOUT SIN WHEN HE PERMITTED ITS EXISTENCE?

He permitted sin in the light of what He knew would be the nature of sin, or what sin would do to the creature, and of what He would have to do if He was to save anyone.

[Why is the world the way it is? (filled with oppression, death and cruelty) If God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and loving, would He really create a world like this? Answer]

IS IT POSSIBLE FOR GOD TO PERMIT SIN AND YET NOT BE THE AUTHOR OF SIN?

Sin was permitted, but God did not cause or necessitate it. This is demonstrated by:
The threatenings of punishment for sin (Gen 2:17; Ex 34:7; Ecc 11:9; 2 Thess 1:7-8). Punishment for sin implies personal responsibility.
The declarations of the psalmist (Psa 78:29-31; 106:15).
The statements of Paul (Acts 14:16; 17:30-31).
The holy character of God that separates Him from all sin (Lev 11:44; Heb 12:10).
WHAT POSSIBLE PURPOSES COULD SERVE BY PERMITTING SIN?
First, that men might recognize its evil, enslaving character (Rom 1:18-32). Second, that God might demonstrate His grace (Rom 5:20-6:2). And third, that the principle of evil might be brought into complete and final judgment (Acts 17:30-31).

DOES THE DECREE TO SAVE OVERRULE THE FREEDOM OF THE WILL?

The Bible says that the unregenerate are energized by Satan (Eph 2:2) and that God works in the regenerate (Phil 2:2). Yet the individual is not conscious of any necessity being imposed upon him. Therefore human choice of both good and evil originates within the person's own volition or will; it is free in the sense that he is conscious only of his own freedom of action. We are never as uninfluenced as we think.
Much perplexity remains as to the precise way that the individual's part and God's part in salvation relate. Yet it is clear that God's influence on the unsaved must be exercised if they are ever going to turn to Him in saving faith (John 6:44; Rom 3:23-26; Eph 2:8-9).


HOW DO WE KNOW THAT GOD FREES MAN'S WILL SO HE CAN TURN TO GOD?

The exhortations to turn to God (Prov 1:23; Isa 31:6; Ezek 14:6; Matt 18:13; Acts 3:19).
The exhortations to repent (I Kings 8:47; Matt 2:3; Mark 1:15; Luke 13:3,5; Acts 2:38).
The exhortations to believe (II Chr 20:20; Isa 43:10; John 6:29; 14:1; Acts 16:31).
The exhortations to obey (Acts 5:32; II Thess 1:8; Heb 5:9).

WHAT IS “GRACIOUS ELECTION”?
Gracious election is the sovereign act of God by which from all eternity He graciously chose in Christ Jesus for Himself, and on account of no foreseen merit, certain sinful ones to be the recipients of His special saving grace (John 1:11-13; 15:16; Acts 13:48; Rom 9:20; Eph 1:4; II Thess 2:14).

Author: Paul E. Eymann, distinguished Professor of Bible.

 










   

Hi Kelly.

Which part of your quote, if any, do you think that I would disagree with? Or do you think it's in line with what i've been saying?

In Christ

Dave

Hi Dave,
I am not disagreeing with anyone. I am one of those types that believe in God knowing all and Him being mysterious. We can debate all we want but, when the time comes God will reveal it to us all. We can debate anything in human terms but only God knows the truth about every situation. When Jesus returns soon, earth and heaven shall be the same (Our Kingdom Come, Thy Will be done on earth as it is in heaven). I am simply waiting on His Truth to be told to us, as promised. I debate nothing of what anyone says. I just wait on God.

I BELIEVE (me, myself and I) that, God gave us all free will. He did NOT give us faith, per se but the ability to have faith. He gave us choice on whether to follow that faith and come to Him or, to defy Him and go our own way. When the day of His return to earth, those that chose not to follow Him will be dealt with according to His Wrath.

I do believe faith is a gift. However, like any gift that is received we have a choice on whether to turn it in for something we think we want more (which usually turns out to be the wrong choice in human terms) or, we accept it with all the love and Grace it came with. I don't believe in predestiny, but only that God does know our destiny. It is up to us whether to follow His Path that we are given with Grace and by His being a sovereign God. He allows us to stumble, but it is up to us whether we take His hand and get up, or completely to fall from that Grace.

I stumble many times but reach up and the hand of God is right there for me. Praise Jesus!

Those are MY beliefs. If they are way off, God will let me know in His Time. As of now, all I feel I have to do is believe in Him, Worship Him, Follow His lead and continue to grasp for His Hand when I make the wrong choices.

God Bless,
Kelly

The reason that I asked is because at first glance your quote looked like it was going to support free will in the libertarian sense, but in examining a little closer, barring a few points made that were obscure enough that I really couldn't say whether I disagreed or not, for the most part, that quote doesn't really teach anything different than what I've been saying, at least not to the best of my understanding.

Let me explain.

People of the reformed theology, mainly those you would call Calvinists, use the term "free will" also, but we would not be as liberal in our definition as some may be. We hold true to scripture. The reason that i'm telling you this is when I speak to other people who I know have a different definition of "free will" than what I believe that scripture teaches, I go out of my way not to use the term "free will" because I know that a faulty definition will be assumed into the meaning. You may have found a link that uses the term "free will", but I believe that it is probably assumed in the writers eyes, based on what he wrote, that he is not speaking of a libertarian free will.

I say this because of many things that the writer said.

The Bible says that the unregenerate are energized by Satan (Eph 2:2) and that God works in the regenerate (Phil 2:2). Yet the individual is not conscious of any necessity being imposed upon him. Therefore human choice of both good and evil originates within the person's own volition or will; it is free in the sense that he is conscious only of his own freedom of action. We are never as uninfluenced as we think.
Much perplexity remains as to the precise way that the individual's part and God's part in salvation relate. Yet it is clear that God's influence on the unsaved must be exercised if they are ever going to turn to Him in saving faith (John 6:44; Rom 3:23-26; Eph 2:8-9).

Barring what was sandwiched in the middle that I had a hard time determining what exactly the writer meant (since there was no scripture given for the point being made), I agree with the rest of it that I put in bold print.

Also this...

WHAT IS “GRACIOUS ELECTION”?
Gracious election is the sovereign act of God by which from all eternity He graciously chose in Christ Jesus for Himself, and on account of no foreseen merit, certain sinful ones to be the recipients of His special saving grace (John 1:11-13; 15:16; Acts 13:48; Rom 9:20; Eph 1:4; II Thess 2:14).


Dave

Hi Dave,
As I said, I won't debate it any further--for I have my beliefs and, if I am way off, God will tell me when it is His Time to do so. I just know that, I was of no faith for seven years. I felt His touch one day and responded to it. That is the key--I could have ignored it (as I have friends that do that when they feel God but say it isn't so and reject it), or I had the choice to follow His lead. I chose that lead. God just left it open for me to make that choice.

I believe God will let us do what we want to do, knowing all along those that will never be saved and those that will open their heart to do so. I believe He gives us a choice, right down to a sin that, even though we know it is wrong or have done it before, we choose to do it anyway. God knows what our choice will be, long before we make it. However, he allows us to go through those and then, if we choose to go to Him with it, He will lead us with His Light and continue to do so as His Children.

If I am wrong, I will find out and there will be no questions--only answers. That is the day that I rejoince in, when pain and suffering on earth are no more!

God Bless,
Kelly

This is my own opinion, which I will not debate.

God has a chosen people - an "elect" Rom. 8:33; Eph. 1:4-6. However God chose first one way of salvation (law) and then another (grace). The law never saved Gal. 3:21-22. God allowed all who sought to come to Him by faith in the time of Christ and before Christ Heb 11. In fact, the same promise given in Matthew 7:7 that all who seek will find to New Testament people was first given in Jeremiah 29:13 to Old Testament people. So, all who sought are chosen, all who are chosen are elect Rom. 8:28-30 In other words, only the elect are saved, but anyone who seeks God is part of the elect. The real question, I think is, "What is the relation between God's choice and our choosing?"

If every person on the wrong side of that line is there because they want to be, then they are to blame - not God. Jesus knew that many would not follow Him Mt. 7:14, but that does not mean He is to blame (so long as all who would choose could choose Him.

The Bible clearly portrays man as having a free will. Many verses clearly call for a response from man Rom. 6:23; Mt. 23:37; Jn. 1:12; Deut. 30:19; Josh 24:15, and these responses are predicated on man's ability to choose to respond. These verses would be asking the impossible if man were not free to choose.

Before creation God had all things in His mind. He knew all there was to know about every single thing in His mind - rocks, trees, air, planets, animals, triangles,  and man. Now, if God created a triangle it had to be a three sided geometric figure because that is what it is by nature. In the same way, if God created people He had to make creatures with free will, for that is what people are by nature that is not all that they are, but it is an essential element.

So God knew what their free will would be used for and He chose that it would be so Acts 13:48. He is the primary cause of all our actions - but we are the secondary causes and are therefore accountable for what we do even though it is God who gave us the ability to choose and even knew exactly what we would choose when he created us. So God chooses His elect those that freely chose to follow Him, and He did this choosing before time began which is why we say He foreknew and predestined.

Jesus died for all people John 3:16; 1 Jn. 2:2; 2 Peter 2:1; Rom. 5:6-10; etc.. This does not mean that all will come to Him, only that salvation has been offered to all. Christ died for all sin, the price has been paid for all people, but not all people accept it. A gift may be paid for, but is of no value to the person who does not possess it.

Look at it this way, I freely chose to go to church this morning. Now that that event is in the past it is no longer possible to change it, it is determined and unalterable. Well, when God knows a thing it is not tensed, it is not in time. So when God knows a thing He knows it perfectly as its cause and immediately outside of time. God can see the future just like we see the past better actually. So just as I can say that my going to church is fixed and unchangeable, God can say that what I will do tomorrow is fixed and unchangeable - but still free.

The language in Romans 9 might make it sound like Pharoah's heart was forced. But notice that God hardened Pharaoh in Exodus. God solitified what was already in his heart, He did not force Pharaoh against his will. Pharaoh was free, and as such he alone is responsible for his choices, and as such he will be judged. God caused Pharaoh's actions to be possible, but Pharaoh caused them to be actual.

Well I guess, I've gone on long enough.

I wanna debate the debate!!!!! *stomps feet and pouts* ;)

Now, I throw a pie, just cuz I wanna! My free will!  :P

Okay Kelly remember, you asked for it......................................  ;D


edited to add; Look at your quote there Kelly.  ;D

Now that is funny!

 ;D ;D ;D