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Hey guys,

I've been talking with some Mormons and wanted to see if you could help me. I'm very familiar with their doctrines, i was just wondering if anyone knew how i could get my hands on the early books of Joesph Smith and Brigham Young. I believe they are called "Journal of Discourse" and "Mormon Doctrine" among others...i could be wrong....

What I'd like to do is expose the early prophets as false prophest (Smith and Young) but i want the actual book in my hand when i talk to them, so my words won't be consdered "hersey".

Furthermore, i stumped them with some doctrine and they said they'd get back to me, but i said please get back to me with verses from the Bible only, not the BOM or D&C. They were a bit hestiant to do this, because they believe they BOM to be just as good as the Bible. Where do i go from here?

ANY help, no matter how small is appreciated!

thanks

If you can't find them free online then I suggest looking for a book store online or one nearby you. If they don't have them they should be able to order them for you.

Out of the Bible ask them to read, Revelation 22:18-19 I [personally solemnly] warn everyone who listens to the statements of the prophecy [the] predictions and the consolations and admonitions pertaining to them] in this book: If anyone shall add anything to them, God will add and lay upon him the plagues (the afflictions and the calamities) that are recorded and described in this book.   19 And if anyone cancels or takes away from the statements of the book of this prophecy [these] predictions relating to Christ's kingdom and its speedy triumph, together with the consolations and admonitions or warnings pertaining to them], God will cancel and take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the city of holiness (purity and hallowedness), which are described and promised in this book.

A few other questions you can ask them.

1. If the original 1830 Book of Mormon was inspired than why were there so many errors and changes and additions and deletions, when compared to current editions?

2. If the Book of Mormon is true, then why has the Mormon church changed it? Examples are: 1 Nephi 11:21; 19:20; 20:1 and Alma 29:4. Compare these with the original Book of Mormon. (there have been   at least 3913 changes in the book of Mormon, excluding punctuation changes.)

3. If Moroni devoutly practiced the Mormon Gospel, why is he an angel now rather than a God? (Doc. & Cov. 132:17,37)

4. When Christ died, did darkness cover the land for three days or for three hours? (Luke 23:44 and 3 Nephi 8:19, 23).

5. How can a man who is not a descendant of Aaron hold the Aaronic Priesthood? (Numbers 16:40; Heb. 7:13,14).

6. God rejected the fig leaf aprons which Adam and Eve made (Gen. 3:21). Why do Mormons memorialize the fall by using fig leaf aprons in the secret temple ceremonies?

7. How do you explain the fact that 2 Nephi 16:2 is copied from an older version of the KJV of the Bible in Isa 6:2? This is proven because this older KJV (the mistake is corrected in current versions) made a rare gramatical error by using the incorrect plural form of "seraphims" rather than "seraphim".

Thats all I can think of, right at the moment.

Good luck.  I will be praying for you.  They are like trying to have an intelligent conversation with a brick wall.  I could have gave you all my material and study, but my computer got a virus and I lost everything. :(

Pastor, thanks you very much! I will try your suggestion.

Dream, thank you for all the info! I apprecaite you taking the time to write that all out for me. You can bet i will look up those verses and use them.  Thank you very much for #4. That is a direct contridiction of the BOM and the Bible. I will ask them about that.  Question....is there any way i can obtain the 1830 version of the BOM? I will search online as much as i can for it....
I'm not familar with #5 however....
#6....the bible never said God REJECTED what they had made, it simply said he made them new coverings...

Kris, thank you sooo much for your prayers!!! These Mormons were born and raised in the church (as was I, before i became Christian) so i expect it to take some time before they question their faith. I feel for them, i really do. I'm so sorry your computer crashed!   :(

Anyone else can help me?

Your welcome Jessie, as for question #5. The morons feel. the aaronic priesthood was handed down from Aaron through his seed until it came to John the Baptist. John the Baptist was directed by God to confer it upon Joseph Smith. In the Restoration, the Aaronic Priesthood has not been restricted to those who are literal descendants of Aaron or of Levi, since those lineages are not at present identified. Also, the priesthood authority that implemented the ordinances of the Law of Moses has been replaced by the higher priesthood and laws and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The Bible teaches priesthood, however, it is not a priesthood such as is invented by man. Every Christian is a priest, for God. I Pet. 2:9, Rom. 12: 1,2, Heb. 7:12, Heb. 4:16

Hi there!


Converting mormons is like handling slippery eels.  Statistic indicate that after the seed is successfully planted, the average time for a mormon to leave the church is seven years. 

The Journal of Discourse is online if you put it in a search engine.  Another book you might want to brouse is "Gospel Principles".  It can be found on the LDS official homepage.

The problems will begin to arise immediate.  You need to remember that the missionaries knocking on doors have been trained for two years in apologetics.  They have the pat-answer index to answer all questions. 

And the usual answer is "that isn't official doctrine of the CoJCoLDS"  The church may teach it, use it, and live by it... but it isn't "official doctrine"... just as ...the exaltation to godship.   

The Jesus Christ of mormonism does not have the same attributes as the Christ of Calvary, and I believe that is your best argument.   After all, misplaced faith will not save anyone.   And the faith that is placed in a wannabe Jesus rather than the real thing is the seed you want to plant.


Pray for the Holy Spirit to soften their hearts before your meeting.

~serapha~

Hello Serapha,

WELCOME Back!! It's great to have you back on the forum.

You made some excellent points that really apply to all witnessing. We know that prayer is a mighty tool for us and the one we wish to witness to. First, if we just pray, the Holy Spirit will guide us in what to say and how to say it. It's sad that many Christians get discouraged and don't feel strong enough to witness because of what they view as previous failures. BUT, God has promised us that HIS WORD will never return void. So, we should feel happy that GOD gave us the opportunity to plant a seed, and we can trust GOD to use the effort in the way that HE Will.

Love in Christ,
Tom

Galatians 6:9-10 NASB  Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

Thank you Sera!!  Thanks for taking the time to write me. I've been praying like crazy, cause i know that my words alone can't change their hearts, only God can. I can't do it on my own, i need God's help. He was there last time i talked to them however, cause i could feel him putting thoughts into my head.  I'll Yahoo and Google it. Thanks. I'm going to the libeary soon also, so i'll look there too.  You're completly right that they have been trained in aplogetics, however....i was born and raised a Mormon also....so i'm ready for them.  :P  I'm not sure how deep this religion has it's grip on them....i'm hoping not too deep.

Tom, i am very happy to be used by God in this way. And i won't let Him down!  ;) Thanks for reminding me that God's word never returns void. That encouarged me.

About obtaining the 1830's Book of Mormon....where can i find it?

Sister Jessie,

You are most welcome.

I'm almost sure that you can get a FREE e-Book copy in plain text at:

Project Gutenberg    http://www.gutenberg.net/

You should also find links there to an excellent FREE e-Book reader called Y-Book.

Y-Book is excellent, and it makes the reading of thousands of public domain books at lot more fun. I must add that Project Gutenberg also has hundreds of outstanding Christian books. Everything there is FREE and public domain.

Love in Christ,
Tom

Romans 10:16-17 NASB  However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Thank you Tom, but i couldn't find that particular version. There were BOM's of course, but modern day ones. I don't know if i can find it. It's out of print and a hundred years old....

Hi Jessie.

I found several original bom's and the book of commandments on the web. I won't link to them because of the other non-Christian content also on those web pages. Just do a web search for original book of mormon or for 1830 version of book of mormon. It will give you quite a few of them. A web search for 1833 Book of Commandments brings up a couple of them.

I find it interesting that the original works stated that J Smith was the author and proprietor of this work where the current version says he was simply the translator.

Also something of interest is the following verse.

1830 version:

1 Nephi 3, p. 25* And he said unto me, Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of God, after the manner of the flesh

current version:

1 Nephi 11:18 And he said unto me, Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God.

There are many more like that.

         
  Matthew 24:24:

    For there shall arise false christs and false prophets and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.



           Hi Jessie,

                        First of all.. PRAISE GOD that your heart was opened and have found the REAL Jesus.  ;D   I too am X-LDS, was not born into it though.
              Blessings to you... Tina

So, Jessie, how did it go?

The book of moroni 10:4 is not supported by the Bible, in fact it contradicts it. Sometimes morons will cite James 1:5 in support but, James, is directing believers to ask God for wisdom to overcome temptation James1:2-18, not to revel to them whether He inspired a particular book. The Bible tells us to apply objective test to alleged revelations Deut 13:1-5, Matt 7:15-23, 1 James 4:1-6,  not to seek a purely subjective comfirmation of a written revelation.