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I quote from Mark chapter 15 verses 33-34  at midday the whole country was covered with darkness which lasted for three hours at three o clock Jesus cried out with a loud shout "eloi eloi lema sabachthani" which means "my God my God why did you abandon me.

Why did god let Jesus die? And was Jesus rising from the dead a sign of God saying "ok i did the wrong thing im sorry"

God let Jesus die because it was only by His shed blood that forgiveness for our sin could be bought.  Jesus, the sinless Lamb of God, died for you and me to pay the price for sin that God demanded - death.  Why then did God raise Him again?  :)  Because the payment was acceptable to God!  In raising Christ, God put His stamp of approval on the sacrifice He had made.  He lives, that I now may live.  You know what?  So can you!  Are you interested in hearing how my friend?

Yes but Jesus obviously didn't want to die as he said "my God my God why did you abandon me" perhaps God wanted him to die but Jesus did not want to, otherwise why would Jesus of said that?

Jesus was quoting a passage from Psalm.  That is, after all, what death is.  It isn't ceasing to be, but a separation.  In a physical death the body is separated from the soul and spirit.  Spiritual death is separating the soul and spirit from God.  Did Jesus want to die on the cross?  Yes!  How can I say that so confidently?  Look at Luke 22:39-46


Why the great agony in His prayer?  Because He knew the cost; He knew the sacrifice He was about to make.  The physical pain was enough to make anyone sweat, but the blood filled sweat was brought by the knowledge that in death, He would suffer the very separation from God that God demanded!  And yet He still submitted Himself to death:


Scripture tells us that Jesus "became sin" for us.  God will not accept sin, and so separated Himself from that sin.  Jesus died, both physically and spiritually on the cross to pay for our sins.  Shall I go on?  :)

You still haven't explained why Jesus said "God you have abondon me" this must mean that God had done something wrong, i think that Jesus did not want to die and then God just made up the "he died for you sins" i dont think Jesus really wanted to die.

The abandonment Jesus spoke of was the experience of being separated from God as He became sin for us.  God had done nothing wrong, yet God the Son, Jesus Christ, had become the very sin He was dying for.  Confusing?  Possibly, but the point is that God didn't make a mistake.  He was paying for our sin by taking that sin on Himself and dying - being separated from God.  My friend, the sheer fact that Jesus died was evidence of His willingness.  Consider this:


Jesus could have called for help at anytime!  Why?  Because He is God!  God didn't do something to Him He didn't already accept having done.  Moreover:


Jesus wasn't forced to die for you.  He did so of His own free will.  Does this help?

mgs2,

If one understands that Jesus was fully man and fully God.

And that his God nature never interfered with His physical nature, one can begin to comprehend these words.

For instance, does God ever get tired?, Does He eat?, Does He thirst for something to drink?    

The answer is obviously NO.

However we read in the Gospels, Jesus, did get physically tired, we read at Jhn 4:6, He was weary at the well, from the journey;

Did he eat? He ate the last supper with his disciples Mat 26, Mk 14,

Did He thrist? Jhn 19:28 tells us he thristed.

In His God nature, did He cry the words you ask of, because He was afraid, the answer is no.

But in His physical nature one can understand, His fear, ( the scripture tells us he sweated drops of blood the night before His crucifixion, while praying for dstrength to do the will of His Heavenly Father,    the prospect of spending an eternity  in Hell for the sins of His people, was what he struggled with,.

Thou he emptied himself and thou being in the form of God t thought it not robbery to be equal with God.  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; (Phil2:6-10)

He said these words as a man, who had enjoyed glory with God, His  Father, and was about to be separated from Him,in accordance to an eternity in Hell, and as any man facing death, spoke as a man who had a moment of passing doubt as He considered what He was about to experience.

Blessings,

Petro
Do you know Him, as Lord and Savior, today??

I think what happened can be interpreted in different ways no one knows for sure what happened. Jesus's speech "my God my God why did you abandon me" can be interpreted in different ways.

Yes.  But if you interpret it the scripture presents it, then Jesus did what He did by His choice.  The only wrong done Him was by us and our sins that He went to the cross to forgive.   :)

Well of course it can be interpreted in different ways, the scripture intreprets for us what is recorded He said.  

Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

And even those that heard Him, began the speculations then and there. (Mat 27:47-49)

However, the answer is found in Psa 22; David's prophecy of praise;

1  To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
2  O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3  But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.                                                        4  Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5  They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6  But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7  All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8  He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9  But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10  I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
11  Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12  Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13  They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14  I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15  My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16  For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17  I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18  They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19  But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20  Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion's mouth:

Who is the Lion in view herein, at vs. 21, if not, our adversary, the roaring lion spoken of at; (1Pet 5:8) that, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

He is that sameone who is described as "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now worketh in the children of disobedience (Eph2:2) , and the God of this world at (2Cor 4:3-4).

God is Holy, He will never overlook sin, and because He is Holy, He must punish it.

As Allinall, has explained;

The Lord Jesus had no sin of his own, but He willingly, obediently took the guilt of our sins upon Himself, and when God as Judge, looked down and saw our sins upon our sinless SUBSTITUTE, He withdrew from His only begotten SON.

It was this separation the distressed our Lord and God, the Captain of our Salvation.

I doubt any of us, can imagine or even begin to know, feel or understand exactly what He was going thru at this moment on our behalf, yet scripture records it for us herein..

To speculate about what occurred herein, does not make it true, notice what the scripture says about, the calculated or maybe the word should be uncalculated risk these gambled , when they murdered Jesus, willingly.

They did it speculating, that He was not who He claimed to be, had they known, they would never have killed him, and those religious men in authority were the ones who handed Him over to the hands of wicked men.

Were they  ignorant or wise?

.......Your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.         (1 Cor 2:5-13)

But all this happened to fulfill the plan of word of God, notice (verse 23, below), that was by Gods determinate council to hand over to wicked religious men, from the begining; knowing they would kill Him.

One asks "Why did God let Jesus Die?

The answer is so that God, could save them that are LOST.

Acts 2
22  Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24  Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25  For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26  Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27  Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28  Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29  Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30  Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31  He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32  This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33  Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34  For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35  Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36  Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Pay particular attention to verse 23, above;

From the begining, it was Gods plan to provide Himself a sacrifice for the sins of His people.

This what the Lord  said to Joseph, when appeared to him in a dream;

Mat 1
20  ..........son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21  And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for He shall save his people from their sins.  (my emphasis)


Our hope is the same hope David spoke of because we believe what he said at verses 29-31.

Have you placed your FAITH in Jesus?

God Bless
Petro

I'm sure your blasphemy will be duly noted in God's book.

Your attitude though shows that you are not repenting.  He has all power over you.  If you died right now you would go to hell and beg from down there to be brought up and he will tell you all the chances you had and all the things you thought and said and it will all be your fault.

Give you what you deserve?  Yes.  Tell you he gave you chances and it is your own fault?  Yes.  Torture and mock?  No.

You can rest assured, Jesus agreed to do it, willingly. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are in perfect agreement. But when Jesus cried that out, He was fulfilling a prophecy from the Psalms to testify to His divinity, that He was the messiah. Some psalms are called messianic, because they are prophecies about Jesus.

Jesus had to become a curse for us, to take the curse away from us. His abandonment by the Father was part of the punishment He paid for us, because that is part of what happens in hell. It was very painful for Jesus, who had always been in perfect fellowship with the Father, to suffer this, but He was willing because He loves His people so much! His rising from the dead was a sign, a firstfruits of the rest of the resurrection: yours and mine. And it is proof that He can do it, not because He needs to prove Himself, but to comfort those who are searching and whose faith needs to be strengthened. His earthly mission was finished, so of course He couldn't remain dead. The work was done. Remember, we will be raised in real bodies again. Death truly is temporary for God's people. It isn't just a figure of speech; it will be a very real resurrection! You'll never have to worry-God doesn't make mistakes like we do. We're safe in His hands.  ;)

Well, of course it does, no one would argue this point, you are in a better position to state what certain things sound like to YOU.

But when the scriptures speak of you, obviously you will disagree, because you do not see  yourdelf,  as GOD sees you, and since this is true, you are unable to receive much less understand nor believe that things of God.  

Notice  1Cor 2;

14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You said;

[quote)
First off, Allinall said "God let Jesus die because it was only by His shed blood that forgiveness for our sin could be bought."

I find this rediculous. God makes the rules, correct? God knows all, correct? So all of you think before he created the universe, God knew about Jesus having to die, yet could not think of a better way of doing things. Why? Was this impossible for him? Did he want rebelous humans and a dead Jesus?

Since you are unable to discern spiritual thruths, from the Word of God, its no wonder you are unable to underdstand
these teachings, but it doesn't have to be this way.

The Gosple of the Kingdom is an invitatiion to whomsoever, if you are not interested, why complian, it is preached to them that are interested in changing their lives.

As Jesus said;

They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.  (Mk 2:17)

So, if,  you do not consider yourself a sinner, what good is it to resond to Jesus, He is of NO value to you.

But to us who recognize we need a savior He means everything to us, since it is thru Him, we can receive forgiveness of sin, and be made right with God the Father.

So, in the end everyone will receive in our bodies, what we want.  And we can all be happy..

 
[quote
As for the death of Jesus being a sacrafice, well I'd do it in a second. If I knew for sure that  I'd be resurrected as a god, that I could fly and roam the universe at will, of course I'd do it. I wouldn't want to be omniscient, though. Things would get very boring always knowing everything. Never any surprises.

No you wouldn't.

Beacuse of the way you think.

You would rationalize, "Why should I give my life for sinners" they are of no value to me anyhow. And besides I am already god.

These words are the words of a selfish person, you see, you only think about your own gain and what the benefits would be for you.  This why, you can never be God.

The truth is, you are and act presently as, a god, however, since there is only ONE TRUE God, you are counted with all the other false ones.


This is because you cannot see, nor understand the things of God.

Petro

So, you feel that God could have done things a better way. I also thought that, back when I was a teenager. Let me ask you this: better to you, or better? You're a human being. From your standpoint, all suffering is bad, and if there is a way to avoid it, it seems better. A very normal way of thinking, for human beings. But you can't see five minutes into your future, can you?

God is not like a man; He has higher thoughts and higher priorities. And He wants His character to be made known, and He wants His children to become like Him. If we didn't sin so badly, how could the intensity of God's love be known? How would you know what it's like to be completely forgiven for something serious that you have done, like rebel against an all-powerful God?

How would you know God's holiness if you didn't see His wrath against sin? How would you know that He is just, or even what justice is?

As for stupid, you may think it's stupid because you don't understand how your sin looks before God. How serious it is, and how powerful God is. Let me put it to you this way. Our sin cost Him His only Son, with whom He had perfect fellowship. A Son who didn't deserve to die. Let's just say, it's a mistake to think God winks at sin. I assure you He doesn't.

To me, unwise would be making the wrong choice of these two options

1. Pay for what you did before God.
2. Let Jesus pay for you.

Whitehorse said So God planned our humble and hardscrabble existence?

Well it's all his fault. He planned it all, he put into action and followed through with it. He can do anything, right? Well he could have done it differently. I mean, come on now, how many times has he smote the world. And he seems surprised every time he needs to repeat the smiting.

Eyeball

No, He isn't surprised at all. What is the manifestation of surprise you're referring to? He does it to show us something, not Himself. You can say it's His fault all you want, but you don't understand that sin is a choice for which there are consequences. You don't understand how sin looks before Him. But it is a very good idea to get understanding of this.

May blessings and peace rest upon you and your home.

How should I be more like God? Tell my children I am going to punish them all there lives for something an ancestor did? Tell them part of their being will last forever and be tortured by me because they don't think as I want them to? Should I send my children to kill  most of the neighbors so they'll have land to build their houses and build a place to worship me? Have my children use the surviving neighbors, all virgin children, as whores or sell them into prostitution?

Maybe that was the problem Andrea Yates of Texas had. She was trying to be god-like, and pulled a Noah on her children. People were really freaked over this, yet think it's plausable that a loving god would do worse.

No, none of you have answers for the hard questions, except to say God's thoughts are higher than ours. That's an easy out and explains nothing.

I was raised with fire and brimstone preaching Sunday morning, Sunday night plus prayer meeting on Wed. I know how serious this all is. If I thought any of it was plausable, I'd be on my knees in a second. As for God's power, he either does not exist or is impotent. I hear proofs such as God's healing or God blessed us with money to buy food. If he wanted belief, the big man would make a few amputated legs and arms grow back. Lizards can do it, why can't God? If he wanted belief He would strike dead anyone who touched his graven monument, as the book said he did with the ark.

Eyeball

You cannot repent.  Repentance is of the Lord.  One does not simply awaken one day and determine to come to Christ.  It is when Christ, through the word of God and the conviction of the Holy Spirit, comes to you that repentance is given.  The only question then, is whether or not you accept it.  You, are not in this position by the words you speak.

Petro said-
Why do you put words in my mouth, then on the basis of them call me selfish? Have I said something that led you to believe I am selfish? Or is it the same old line about atheists being so selfish they won't acknowledge God? Well, I'm not selfish, I don't value material posessions beyond their usefullness and if you need a couple of bucks I just might lend it to you, if you really need it.  I think you take offense of the fact that non-believers value themselves and their thoughts, that we feel worthy of living free of archaic rules.

As far as your opinion that I only think of my own gain and benefits to me, well, being unhindered by religion, I see that what benefits others  benefits the world. I'm not obsessed by an afterlife, so I know my short time on Earth is all I'll have. I know I had better use this time wisely, for it's all I'll get.

Eyeball

We are not punished for something ancestors did.  True it was through ancestors that sin entered the world, but we are punished for our own sins.  He has given us all the proof we need, why should he have to do anything more?

Despite your feelings, there should be something whispering to you that He is the Author of the ten commandments. If He makes these good laws, then it must be that He Himself is good. His justice is not a bad thing. And He offers you escape from His wrath. He made ten little rules with many implications. I can't keep them perfectly. No one else at this forum can keep them perfectly either. Can you?

Whenever you feel God is only a God of wrath, it's either because people distorted His character to you for their own purposes, or because you're not looking at what the people in the Bible did to offend God.
 


But what about the fact that He also spilled His own blood on the ground, took the beatings on His own back, to protect you from this? That should bring you to your knees, too. Is it a lack of grace that turned you against God? Did people teach you only His wrath and not His mercy so that they could control you for their own sinful power trips? Do you have a hard time accepting that He is also a God of incredible grace and mercy, and so you say He doesn't exist? Or is it just a case of wanting to live how you want to live, so you think God doesn't exist in order to remove the restraints that keep you from sin?


Obviously God created the lizards with this ability. But it's true that God doesn't want everyone to believe. How could He show His justice otherwise? But everyone who genuinely seeks Him will be found by Him. God's word never returns void. It always achieves its purposes. One of my favorite quotes by Bob Coy is this: "The same sun that melts wax hardens clay." If you feel at all inclined to seek Him, that desire comes from Him, as a gift of His mercy. Perhaps this is why He brought you here.

Grace and blessings to you.

God is trying to show humanity that life in this world is not as important as eternal life. When Jesus asked God why He had abandoned Him, he said it was because His flesh was weak. Even in His death he knew that His sacrifice was far more important than His own fleshly life. He said that you have to lose your life in order to save it. We humans who are attached to life in this world find death a tragedy. But the ones who are filled with the spirit know that our death can bring about something even more glorious.

Whitehorse said If I start hearing voices in my head and then obeying them, I hope to be put away and medicated.

Another option, the one that works for me, is to know the book is a fake. All these millions over the years fooled by a bunch of middle eastern goatherders. God is not wrathful, for he DOES NO EXIST! His followers on the other hand, have been known for their wrath and excellent torture tecniques.

Are you kidding? You think I was Catholic? Come on. You folks are always trying this. You think if someone doesn't believe in a god, they must hate that god. Then you try to pry out some kind of horrible chidhood trauma, I guess for your listening pleasure. Listen, he does not exist. I do not hate a thing that is not.Yeah I heard the fire and brimstone preaching about hell as a kid, but adults always left out the other parts. Blasphemy removed 9-3-2003 bepI found these on my own, along with the genocide of the Bible. And by the way, sorry to disappoint you, but I had a wonderful childhood.

Are any of you going to answer my questions?
Eyeball

if only we could lock you away, but exactly what underage rapes are you speaking of???

Well it looks like we've found someone who knows more than Christ. You very definitely are angry. There is bitterness in your writing, probably at your parents for shoving Christianity down your throat. Just because you don't know God doesn't mean He doesn't exist. I know it may be hard for you to believe, but there's a lot you don't know...unless of course you think you're omniscient which is delusions of grandeur.

Exodus
21:7
And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.
21:9
And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters

I would think if you sell your daughter, she is a slave. For a slave to be forced to marry the masters son, and presumably service him as a good wife is required, to me would be coerced sex- rape.

Numbers
31:15
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
31:16
Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
31:17
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.    
31:18
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Verse 31:18 says "women children". They are the spoils of war. They are property, not new daughters. It's funny that they killed everyone else because they supposedly brought "a plague upon the congregation of the Lord", yet would keep the little girls,  for their pleasure.

 

Anger? Maybe. Mostly I'm just occasionally livid with incredulity at the lengths I've seen some here go, to not answer my questions.
My parents? They were great people, especially my Dad. He never forced anything on me. He always let me find my own way. In fact, critical thinking skills he taught me, led me away from religion. As for religion being forced down my throat, I'm the one who at six years old, talked my parents into going to church with me and my Grandparents.

The way you talk about Christianity isn't from love. It sounds like fear. If you had understood that Christianity is about love and forgiveness I don't think you would spout the fire and brimstone approach. You got that from some place. Either it's from the church you liked to go to as a child or from your parents. The way you talk about others on this forum is definitely angry. I'm not angry at you. I understand your lack of feeling forgiven. But you have a lot of anger at others. For some reason you want to reject the love that Christ gave for you on the cross.

Could you show me an example of what you're talking about? You'd better hurry, though, because my posts are being
--------.

I am not able to insert a quote from my keyboard because it's not working right. But I'll try to remember some of your posts. You seem to see God as a punishing God instead of saving us from ourselves.  Either you don't think you make any mistakes and don't need a redeemer or you're angry that he is punishing. Or are you happy that He's a punishing God? If you're happy that you think He's a punishing God then why don't you accept Him? You're giving off mixed messages. You say you're not angry but your contempt of God shows otherwise.

Jesus very definitely did exist. His words are written down. They can't be from another human being who made them up because the person who wrote down His words condemned mankind as evil. What human being can condemn humanity (including himself) and then turn around and give his life for mankind? Where did He get the love to do that? Just a guess? He couldn't have gotten it from another human being because He believes they are evil. Why would He believe them? How long could you go around believing you and the rest of humanity is evil without killing yourself and others? The answer is that Jesus HAD to be from God. There is no other source from which to get the love He had to give us.

That's not what I asked for. Every bit of yur proof is circular logic.

Explain how it's circular logic.

You are using for proof, the very thing you are trying to prove. Look here.
A long time ago Eyeball said he always tells the truth. Atheist said Eyeball was an honest man. Knox says Eyeball was truthful and he can prove it, because Atheist and Eyeball wrote it down.
If we could test some things Eyeball has claimed, we can know if at least there is truth there. Sadly, Eyeball is gone from this age and this Earth. None of his writings have any specific prophecies or testable statements.
If all you had were vague writings atributed to Eyeball, all you could truthfully say is that you think they are truth. But to try and prove them based on what the long dead Atheist and Knox wrote, would be circular logic.

Philosophically no one can prove anything. But if we decide on certain premises, i.e. that we even exist, then we can use those premises as proof. You have used the bible in your assertion that it is a fake. You have used the word God to prove He doesn't exist. By the same token I can use the bible to prove that Christ existed. You're the type of person who would accept on fact that Atilla the Hun existed even though there is far more evidence that Christ existed than Atilla the Hun. In your logic, you would have to DENY reality in order to prove that Christ wasn't the son of God. He has shown Himself to be divine in a myriad of ways but you have to ignore that in order to perpetuate your beliefs.  That's a little out of touch.

If you say something is true, and it contains untruths, then it is untrue. This is simple. The sun did not stand still, and even if it did, we would still experience a sunrise.

 No you can't, and if you could, the world would be at his feet. Obviously, you have failed miserably in this quest.
 He hasn't shown me anything. He does not exist. That is my opinion, and that you feel he exists is your opinion. Both opinions are based on a lack of evidence.  As far as me being out of touch, well I need evidence before I believe a thing, not mushy feelings inside.

There is plenty of evidence right before your eyes. There are many more witnesses to Christ's life, words, death, and resurrection, than to any other historical figure at that time. But because it seems unbelievable to you, you dismiss it. By the same token, there have been many incorrect "facts" written about in history books that you believe because they sound believable to you. Never mind that they aren't the truth. The truth doesn't matter to you. What matters to you is if they sound plausible in your mind.

I know it's not your fault that you can't believe. You don't have the Holy Spirit in you and because of that, you can only come from human desires. Trying to understand Christianity without the Holy Spirit is like trying to learn another language without an interpreter. No amount of evidence will convince you, even if it's staring you in the face. It's the same type of denial that leads people to say the Holocaust didn't happen. They have to dismiss tons of evidence because it doesn't sound believable to them.

You have only Biblical accounts to prove your claim. With that logic, any religious book can be said to be true, just because it says so.
This is the key, and I'm glad you finally admitted it. One needs to believe first, then they will have all the evidence they need. Of course, once they believe, they need no evidence.

That's exactly right, eyeball. I'm just curious as a Christian if it can be explained purely intellectually. The reason i'm doing it is because I'm also an intellect and wanted to become a Christian for years but couldn't because i didn't have the holy Spirit. I'm just wondering now if it can be explained using the same logic as non Christians do. And I still believe that non christians are contradicting themselves but won't admit it. There 's a great book out called "Evidence that Demands a Verdict." I can't remember the author's name but he started out to prove Christianity wrong and then became a believer. It's all fascinating stuff.

  From everlasting, the Triune Godhead purposed to recover certain ones from the judgment they were under as a consequence of Adam's fall; God's purpose in it being the manifestation of His attributes of mercy and grace; the outcome of that being the redemption of His chosen ones through Christ to the praise of the glory of His grace. All that transpired-including the death of Jesus of Nazareth-was agreed upon by the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit from everlasting. Their determination to be gracious and merciful to those chosen was so great that before the foundation of the world, they solemnly covenanted together concerning every detail involved. Each agreed to the role that each would play in that recovery. The Word of God was to descend from heaven and take upon Himself the form of a servant. His name was called Jesus. In His humanity, He was fully human. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, Yet the two natures in Christ were never confused. His Divine nature never was less than fully God and His human nature never more nor less than fully human. In His human nature, Jesus grew in wisdom; always in His humanity being fully obedient to the Father; always advancing in knowledge and wisdom at the pace which pleased the Father--never slack in any duty which belonged to Him before God. In the garden of Gethsemane, we see Jesus in His humanity still advancing in wisdom and knowledge-sweating great drops of blood, the man Jesus agonized over what He was coming to realize the Father was requiring of Him. In His garden prayer--notice the way He alters the wording of His prayer each time as His understanding grows, being all the time submissive to the Father as He agonizes. Then, on the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Take plenty of time to realize that Jesus, even in His humanity, that humanity in which He was tempted in all points like we are, yet without sin, the son of man, even throughout those dark hours never raised his voice in complaint over the desertion He was experiencing. It was AFTER, only AFTER He had passed through that dark valley alone that He cried out to be informed about "WHY?". That, dear friends, is a look at how wonderfully complete the obedience of the Man Jesus to the Father was. THINK OF THAT. And because of that obedience, His offering of Himself as an atonement for sin was fully acceptable to the Father. Because of that obedience, He was raised from the death. Because of His own obedience, death could not hold Him. There we see perfect righteousness-testified to by the Father's raising Him up. NOW THINK OF THIS. That SAME righteousness, that righteousness which brought the man Jesus through death even up to the right hand of the Father is GIVEN-GIVEN-GIVEN to all who by God's grace are willing to cast away all hope in themselves to depend instead on Christ and His righteousness. Will that righteousness be sufficient for you also? Just as it brought Him through the valley of the shadow of death to resurrection, so will it also for we who fully cast ourselves upon Him. "Praise to the Lord the Almighty, the King of creation. Oh, my soul praise Him for he is thy health and SALVATION. All ye who hear, now to His temple draw near, Join me in glad adoration!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
"For He has made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might be made the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God in Him."

Lots of pretty words, folks, but still no answer. Why did God not plan it some other way? He is the maker of all? He could not forsee the outcome, or either he wanted his son to die?

There are many, many questions that you have not answered, eyeball, including where your love of self comes from. Since you don't believe in God, it has to come from a human source which, unless you think humans are perfect and omnipotent, is conditional. In that case, your love for others can only be conditional based on what pleases you, which is not real love of your neighbor but selfish love, which of course isn't love at all.

I never said I loved my neighbor. I never said love was unconditional. These are your words. To me, unconditioanal love is useless and valueless. It is based on nothing. I do not subscribe to you definitions of love.

You're still avoiding my question. I answered yours. We can end this easy enough, just say you don't know the answer. I am not so arrogant that I won't admit my ignorance.

 Eyeball (reply 44)--I wasn't addressing you nor trying to convince you of anything. If God chooses to be merciful to you, He will. Until then, you are under the law--under God's curse Galatians 3:10.23. You can't understand now, because wisdom is not available until God is pleased to show mercy through Christ (1Cor Chapt. 1). That requires a work of regeneration by the Holy Spirit who does the will of Jesus Whom you don't seem interested in. Therefore I won't cast pearls before you.

Ah, now you say I'm a swine. Thank you, Ralph.

But I can stop all three in their tracks, right? I can refuse the wisdom? I can refuse the regeneration?


Hmm...I've never heard there was a hierarchy in heaven. I just assumed the three were equal. I learn something new every day. I was a Baptist. Is this specific to a certain denomination? Could be the Baptists believed this also, I didn't stick around long after adulthood.

Your question has been answered over and over again. God allowed Jesus to die so that we don't have to hate ourselves for whatever we do wrong. Everything you have ever thought, said or done that was hurtful has been taken with Him in His death. Before Christ and even after Him in most other religions, people have to sacrifice animals, do good deeds, eat the right, thing, etc. in order to appease their guilt. What do you do with your guilt? You have said that unconditional love is useless so you must not have it. In that case, you are coming from a LACK of love inside you and for others. But you have also said that you love yourself  but that of course is only sometimes because you have admitted it's conditional. The times when you don't love yourself, you either hate yourself or don't care about yourself. You will also treat others in the same way you treat yourself. That of course will not perpetuate life but anger and indifference to people. It certainly doesn't promote happiness because when people hate themselevs or don't care about themselves they are not happy.

You do not see the gross contradictions in your posts. You say that unconditional love is useless and maybe it is if you don't want to be happy. But you are at this website for a reason. Why do you care what Christians believe if you disagree with us? Why do you even ask questions if you are not searching for the unconditional love that you see as useless?It will do you no good to ask questions when you don't want the answers. If you really want answers, look UP to an omniscient source instead of sideways to imperfect humans and you will find them. Unless of course, you're afraid of what you will find. Otherwise, you will reject whatever answers you get here, even if you have to be irrational to do it.  

I no longer will respond to your posts because you are playing games instead of a real search for the truth. I told you where you will get the truth. If you don't ask God, then it shows you were never really interested in finding it to begin with.

My friend, if you're so sure He doesn't exist, why would you waste your time? But you've opted to argue the nonexistence of God, not amongst those who agree with you, but here, amongst people who can see plain as day. We're not perfect-that's why we need a Savior. Like any family, those in the family of Christ don't always agree either. But it doesn't stop us from loving each other, and this is especially true the more we mature in Christ.

You're not the only one who has ever been angry at God. There are times when even His prophets didn't understand, and they were angry, too. As for your statement about having no use for unconditional love, everyone has use for it. And no, I'm not offering my time for my own listening pleasure, but because most people, when they want to talk about God, happy or not, come to places where there are other believers. Maybe even here, although at times even I have a hard time believing it based on some of the petty bickering. >:( If I wanted listening pleasure, wouldn't I be video taping Home Improvement and watching the reruns?

Anyway, here's what my Bible says:Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. I Peter 1:22 Of course, brothers refers to all those of faith.

Then there is this:  If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging symbol. I Corinthians 13:1

As for your questions, we don't owe you any justifications for what we believe. Neither do we offer this completely precious treasure to someone who only wants to trample it into the mud. Neither are we responsible for your choice about whether to submit yourself to God or not. Neither is God responsible for your sin. For all the hate you seem to think God has, it seems to me that you're projecting on Him.

Eyeball--concerning your reply #48: The "swine" comment was not mine. The Lord Himself called those who attack the truth "Swine." Don't try to lessen the force of His use of the word by trying to say I used it. Deal with it. The ear tickling
preaching you heard did not portray Christ as He is. Christ said "SWINE." In other places God refers to men as "beasts" and it is a very proper reference BECAUSE they are just like beasts, or swine--they only care for their gut. The only interest they have concerns their fleshly lusts. You have spent much time on this forum demonstrating that YOU fit that mold.
 CONCERNING YOUR MISCHARACTERIZATION OF WHAT I SAID: that is just one of the reasons there is no profit in scattering pearls before the likes of you. What I said about the three persons of the Godhead performing certain functions in accord with their covenant to redeem certain ones from Adam's fall IN NO WAY MEANT THERE WAS A HIERARCHY. But no one should expect you to regret bearing false witness against me by trying to put those words in my mouth. All your posts show that you are under the law rather than under grace. The love of God comes only through Christ.
Under the law, there is only unrelenting wrath. So don't flatter youself by thinking God is unprincipled sticky sweet
love toward everyone as your Sunday Dandie Arminian
milquetoast preachers would have you believe.

  Eyeball--In reference to your reply #48. No,friend, you CAN'T stop all three in their tracks. He DOES have mercy on whom He will have mercy. Men cannot reject effectual grace. They cannot refuse wisdom or regeneration when He is purposed to bestow it. What He purposed in eternity He executes in time: "Whatsoever the LORD pleased that did He in heaven and in earth; in the seas and all deep places." By His grace He makes those upon whom He purposes to show mercy willing. "There are many devices [or plans] in a man's heart. Nevertheless, the purpose of the Lord - that shall stand." Since there is infinite perfection in all His purposes, it would be an imperfection in Him (since He has the power to perform them) if He did not "do according to His will in the army of heaven and amoung the inhabitants of the earth. None can stay His hand or say unto Him, what are you doing?"
  Eyeball, I think your real problem is that some sugar-tongued
preacher filled your mind with the idea of a God who could be walked on by everybody. The true God is infinitely perfect in all His ways. Think about that for awhile, and then start over from scratch. What we say here can be found in Scripture and the God of Scripture is wondrously more than what many say about Him. Come along with us. Think about the God that
Job knew. Job said of Him, "I know that you can do all things and that no thought of yours can be withheld from you."
EXCITING, huh?

Thanks for the invitation.

If you earnestly seek Him, you have His word He will be found by you. We're here to help you in this endeavor, if that's what you truly want.

eyeball,

You are a selfish father because you really don't care about the welfare of your children, your unbelief deprives them of belief in God, perhaps they would believe in God, even if you don't, so why do you deprive them, by being anti God.

If you were honest, you would be passive to let them find out about God for themselves, but you exhibit, the same anti God feelings in front of them, that you do, herein; don't tell me I am wrong either, I know better, I use to anti God myself, but praise God, my children know mand love the Lord, and wqalk with him, today, and it is pleasing to see, them do so, Gods end of the promise, is "they will not depart from the way, we raised them."  So because of His faithfulness, our faith is strenbgthened, because we see it before our own eyes.

And don't give me that lame excuse, that you want them to make their own decisions in life, well old buddy, if you don't teach them, they will always find someone else, to lead them in what their spiritual beliefs will be, I never believed, but being a father myself, one day when someone shared with me this verse that says;

Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.(Prov 22:6)

If you don't know the way, how can you raise your children to know the way.

They will be humanists, I guess this is OK with you.

You see how, the sins of the father are visited to his children to the third and fourth generations.

Unbelieving fathers will always produce unbelieving children.

As for you question;


Don't tell me, you have a better plan??


Petro

I would consider this brainwashing. I would also consider it brainwashing if they only saw my view of the world. My children never knew my opinions until the later years.


Well, I hope so, but that is their decision.

Praise God that He can bring even those to belief.   :)


I teach my children as best I can.  I send my oldest daughter to a Christian school, where she learns God's word as well.  I take them to church where they learn even more.  Unique, isn't it, that amidst such "brainwashing" that they fail so often times to practice what they've learned?  If this is brainwashing - it doesn't work.  

Is it brainwashing to teach them not to run in the road? Is it brainwashing to teach them to be polite to others? If you answer is yes, then isn't it likewise brainwashing to hinder them from reconciliation with the Lord?

Whitehorse, according to your logic, anything we teach our children is brainwashing. Words have to come out of our mouths when speaking to our children.

Heavens, no. Actually I was responding to eyeball's post-he said Christian training was brainwashing. It was his quote in the box above my post.

Oh sorry. Happy face. Sometimes I quickly glance at the wrong name. By the way, I liked your response.

I do that, too.  ;) Thank you for your gracious compliment.

Eyebally, i don't know if it would do any good to reply to you because you do not think throught the answers. But'I'll take the risk. Those passages, as are all passages in the Bible describing life AS IT WAS THEN. They are describing human nature which is definitely corrupt. The bible is full of what man is capable of even with God.  God is trying to show us through these descriptions of the lives of people what happens to us if we don't go His way. He is also trying to test us to see if we will do what He says, even if it SOUNDS ILLOGICAL, as in the example of God asking Abraham to sacrifice his son, Isaac. Without God in our hearts, all humans can know is human logic. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THERE ISN'T A BIGGER LOGIC OUT IN THE UNIVERSE.  My best analogy is children. Children are notorious for thinking they know everything. They don't have a clue that their parents know what they're up to until later in life. But they think they do. That is how God sees us.

Most people go their own way, thinking they know better than God. It is then that He sends conseqeunces our way to show us that we don't know more than He does. WE ARE NOT MASTERS OF OUR OWN FATE, WE JUST HINK WE ARE. We don't know how we were created and how things were back then, so why wouldn't we believe the bible? How can any of us challenge it because we weren't there? I can understand if people don't understand the bible, but to say it isn't true is actually saying that we KNOW it isn't because we were there. That is the epitome of arrogance and the belief that we are omniscient.

 The ultimate consequence for not believing Him is, of course, not having eternal life. We can choose to not believe if we want, but when we die, we'll know whether we were right or not. The most arrogant among us are the ones who are willing to gamble with their souls. The sad thing is that when they find out they were wrong, it will be too late. If Christians are wrong, what do we have to lose? We have Christ's love in us that can never be taken away. Nobody can jump inside our skin and take it away. When we die, nobody can challenge it any more. The devil will no longer be there to tempt us to sin because we won't be able to sin any more. And the sin we once engaged in on earth has been taken away from us so all that's left is love. Jesus said, "He was has will be given more. But He who has not, even what he has will be taken from him." That pretty much describes an atheist when he dies.

eyeball,

Brainwashing, isn't just indoctrinating minds intensively, it can be done by rejecting ones own childrens upbringing, and allowing others to influence them, to the point where attitudes, peer pressures, drugs, or alcohol makes radical changes in their belief and attitudes, kind of like accepting, immorality and perversion as normal human behavior.

You deceive yourself, your kids, understood perferctly what your view of the world and God, was, way before you made your opinions known.

By your attitude and living your life before them, unless of course you abandomed them, even then, how you treated them while they were growing up, made it clear to them, if you loved them or not.



Petro

What comes out of our mouths is what we value. Our kids can accept or reject our values. I'm only accountable for what I teach them. They are accountable for their choices.

I have been away for awhile. I see no one has answered the question. I mean come on, just say "I don't know", OK?

Again. God knows all. God Made all. God made the rules. Not my beliefs, but yours. Therefore, God would have known, if he created the universe the way it is, Jesus would have to die.
That leaves us with several options to explore.
1. God could not make the universe in a manner that would prevent Jesus' death.
2. God did not know that his son would have to die for your sins.
3. God wanted his son to die.

Which is it? Are there any other logical alternatives?

Clearly the third one. The Father sent the Son to die, and the Son willingly agreed to do this because He didn't want His people to perish. God is not aman and He doesn't think like one, either. Man's way is to look out for number one. God's way is to love intensely. His priority isn't avoiding suffering. It's salvation for those He loves.

That is a VERY intelligent question, eyeball. It is one that even Christians wrestle with. But here's my opinion on it. All of us are born with a Lack of unconditional love form God in us that came from the loss of connection in the garden when Eve at the fobiddent fruit. Adam and Eve were created perfectly in God's image. But then, if Adam and Eve were perfect, how cold they know the value of God unless they knew what the alternative was?

At this point God sent Satan in the form of a serpent to tempt Eve to eat, which she did. This gave her the knowledge of good and evil, at which point, she felt ashamed and covered her nakedness. Now, God's whole purpose is to ALLOW us to sin so that we'de see God as a GIFT, not an entitlement. Now that we're capable of evil, we can now DESIRE the things of God. But the problem is that we CANNOT stop being evil because we are now sinners. God 's solution then was to send His son, Jesus, to the earth to give us the forgiveness from God, thus, re-establishing our connection to God. But the only way we want to come to Jesus is if our pain from NOT being with Him is sot strong that we truly DESIRE God. We are not entitled to God's love. We have to WANT it.

So yes, from the beginning, it was God's plan to allow our sin so that He could send a redeemer for us. I do NOT believe that jesus had a choice to die. If He hadn't died, then God would have been wrong about Him, which is of course, impossible. I also believe that Jesus Himself knew He had no choice. But, being both man and God, He is going to want to live also. That is why in the garden, He said, "The flesh is weak, but the spirit is strong". "Let Thy will be done."

Jesus is also trying to show us that our EARTHLY life is not as important, nor as glorious as eternal life, which is why He said "You have to lose your life in order to save it." So it is not a bad thing that we have to die. Those of us who want to hang onto our earthly life more than we want  eternal life do not understand the riches of heaven as mush as we want the treasures (which are fleeting) of out earthly life. we all have some attachment to our lives.

This is just my opinion. I feel it in me strongly but not everyone may agree with me.

Why did God let Jesus die?


To prove that even if our Creator, the ONe Who made us, came in our very own flesh, and became one of us, subject to all human frailty, pain and suffering--that even if God did that, we would still kill him.

This is why it is critical that the fact that Jesus was God in human form be understood.  It is to prove to us that even if He did that--THAT, we would still kill him.

And Voila!!  Look what happened!!

We proved Him right.   ::)

Hey eyeball,

Actually  the answer is none of the above...

The answer to the question; "Why did God let Jesus die?"

Is found in the scriptures, and although we know it was for the sins of the world, the scriptures also reveal that God ordained it before the world unto our glory, and it is by the wisdom of God in a mystery;
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
 1 Cor 2:7-8

And over in the book of Acts we find that God actually determined (horizo appointed, set the bounds, ordained)the death of Jesus, God knew that Satan the father of lies, who at the Garden of Eden, murdered the fist Adam and his wife Eve, would kill the second Adam, given the opportunity.

This why Jesus reffered to him  as a murder and a liar from the begining (Jhn 8:36-44)

And since God knew that the children of the evil one,  would do the will of their father, and murder Jesus, he delivered Him (Jesus) to wicked men who crucified and slayed Him.

Note;

Acts 2
22  Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23  Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24  Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

And God caused this to happen, so that all men everywhere would know that it is He who, has power to give and take life, since He is the Creator of all things that are seen and unseen, that He might be glorified, and Praised.

Remember, Jesus was innocent he had no sin, and Satan knew this, but when he had the opportunity, he enter into these men who killed Jesus, just as he entered into Judas when he betrayed the Lord.  (Jhn 13:27)

Petro