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This thread presents the doctrine that the Rapture will take place after the Mark of the Beast, commonly called the post-tribulation Rapture.

1Cr 15:51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The Rapture will not occur until the last trumpet. There are seven trumpets in Revelations. You can read about them sometime.

1Th 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (i.e., pre-cede) them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The dead in Christ rise before the living are raptured.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The first resurrection contains those who were beheaded for refusing to take the Mark of the Beast. The dead in Christ must rise before the living are raptured. Therefore, the Rapture must take place after the Mark of the Beast.

Christ's Serf

I'm sorry christserf, but I will disagree with you on this. There is much more edivence for pretrib Rapture, then a posttrib Rapture.

One verse no one thinks of is, Revelation 3:7-11 And to the angel (messenger) of the assembly (church) in Philadelphia write: These are the words of the Holy One, the True One, He Who has the key of David, Who opens and no one shall shut, Who shuts and no one shall open:  8 I know your [record of] works and what you are doing. See! I have set before you a door wide open which no one is able to shut; I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept My Word and guarded My message and have not renounced or denied My name.  9 Take note! I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews and are not, but lie--behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet and learn and acknowledge that I have loved you.  10 Because you have guarded and kept My word of patient endurance [have held fast the lesson of My patience with the [c]expectant endurance that I give you], I also will keep you [safe] from the hour of trial (testing) which is coming on the whole world to try those who dwell upon the earth.  11 I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one may rob you and deprive you of your crown.

So this is why I disagree with you.

DreamWeaver:

I agree with the verse that you quoted entirely:  The Holy One will keep the church of Philidelphia safe from the hour of trial which is coming upon this world.  Are you applying this passage to all Christians?  If so, why?

And why would the church being kept safe require the Rapture?  Couldn't it just mean that He's going to show them a place in the wilderness where the forces of the Antichrist won't get them?

Have you found any problem with the logic that I used in the passages which I presented?

Christ's Serf

To the Dreamweaver.

You stand pretty firm on Rev. 3:10.  Yet who says that 3:10 refers to keeping us out of the Great Trib.?  Where does it say that in there???

Clear & Simple vs Complicated & Confused

You know, Dreamweaver, when I am comparing the Scriptures I find them all to be Clear and Simple just the way they are written. I like it when I let God interpret His own prophetic words for me, just like He says. How wonderfully refreshing it is to simply hear what God is saying, believe and lay hold of it! Don't you agree?

So why is it that you need to be a bulldozer driver, an engineer and a rocket scientist whenever someone else takes and "spiritualizes" the Scriptures to refer to a different time period ("pre-trib") or to mean something else other than what God has already said? They've made it the rule that every prophetic Scripture must be made to fit a certain event and visa versa.

Ever notice how everything is being constantly shifted around ("this Scripture doesn't mean that, or this one goes there, or these books don't apply to us but to the Jews, etc."). They call this, "rightly dividing"!? Note too how everything becomes so complicated and confusing as they take and force God's prophetic word into their belief and doctrine.

What they are doing is taking the word of God and by spiritualizing it they push it with their dozer off of the holy ground of Truth, build many bridges (i.e. "meanings") to try and get around the real meaning, and come up with a system so complicated that no one can figure it out. Know what I mean?

Let me give you 2 examples of what I mean when I say... "Clear" and "Simple":

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 Paul says ... "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

and in Matthew 24:29-31 Jesus says... "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Now to me THOSE are Very CLEAR and SIMPLE! As a Christian I really don't need anyone to interpret or spiritualize those things to me to understand EXACTLY what is being said. Do you? This is something I can trust and rest MY FAITH upon!

In 2 Thes. Paul is speaking of the coming (parousia) of Christ, and he is saying that that Day that we look forward to when Christ comes and we are all gathered together unto Him, is not going to occur until sometime AFTER the man of sin is revealed. "Let no man tell you otherwise", he is saying.

In Matthew 24 we hear Jesus saying that He will not return until immediately AFTER the great tribulation.
He also warns us, in Matthew 24:25, that He is telling us all these things ahead of time (before they occur) so that there will be no excuses for our not believeing Him.

My question is this, (and many in the pre trib. camp have heard it before) "Can anyone show me, without spiritualizing them in order to fit this or that, any CLEAR Scriptures that pertain to His coming / parousia / appearance / return BEFORE the Clear and Simple words that Paul and Jesus used above to warn us???"

2 questions really - can you show me where the "pre trib. doctrine" was a part of the church's faith BEFORE 1800???

Other Clear Scriptures that need no interpretation.... http://www.intergate.com/~subi/propbit2.htm#25

Thank you,

Biff

Revelation 4:1  "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

The first voice he heard as it were a trumpet was who?

Revelation 1:10: I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11: Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12: And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13: And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14: His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15: And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16: And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17: And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
19: Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
20: The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

The voice John first heard like a trumpet was the Lord Jesus Christ.

The seven letters to the seven churches of Revelation are Three fold.
First they were letters to the Seven real churches in those locations of that time period.
Second they are letters to the universal church of the age of Grace. They contain a message for each person who is Christian.
Third they represent the different time periods of the Church until the Rapture.

We are in the time period of two churches in the letters of Revelation now. Philidelphia is the true church of the age now.
Philidelphia will be Raptured. Laodicea is the false church of the age now. Laodicea will be vomited out of the body of Christ and remain behind at the Rapture to enter into the Tribulation as the whore of Revelation 17. Laodicea is a false Church that professes Christianity and Jesus but distorts the truth of the Gospel. They can not be digested into the body of Christ and must be vomited out.

The true Church of Philidelphia is the church that gives out the word of God.

To the church of Philidelphia the Door is open.

Revelation 3:7  "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8: I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9: Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Philidelphia is Raptured at the voice like a trumpet from Jesus in Revelation 4:1. Laodicea is vomited out and left behind.

Revelation 3: 14: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16: So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

The 24 Elders are the representatives of the Church Age. We are in the crowd after the Rapture and witness these events in the verses below. We are the redeemed!

Revelation 5:8 "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9: And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10: And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Revelation 3:11   "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."

Jesus was giving the church of Philidelphia a warning. There is an imminence to the message. What Crown?

The message to Philidelphia is also the message Jesus has for the Church living on earth at the time of the Rapture. We have a crown offered but it can be stolen by men. This crown is not Salvation but a crown of reward. There is a special crown given to those who look forward to Jesus coming for them at the Rapture. For those who love his appearing. For those who believe and expect the imminent return of Christ to remove His Church from earth.

2 Timothy 4:8   "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

Many have tried to steal my Crown. Steal my hope of the imminate Return of the Lord to call us out of the world. To replace my hope with the Tribulation. To replace my Joy of hoping the Rapture is soon with dread that it might be in my life time. I protect my Crown like I was warned by Jesus to do.

I have placed my faith in God"s word for he promised me this: Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Will you receive your Crown? or will you be standing there empty handed smelling of smoke? Jesus could come at any moment. Theres nothing that must come first. The 70th week of Daniel CAN NOT begin until the Rapture has occured.

Hold on to your crown tight and be ready to meet the Lord in the air. Let no man steal your Crown!

 Paul2's Pre-Tribulation Rapture pages (http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=298.0)

By the way, I also researched on Paul2's Pre-Tribulation Rapture pages, on my own. As I came to my own conclusions, on whats there, I don't follow the doctrine of man Biff.  I also had no idea the doctrine of pre-trib before 1800, till you just brought it up.

My dear Dreamweaver,

[I re-read this, and must apologize for my snide remarks.  Even though I am debating you in this forum I want to do it in the right spirit.  You should also know that I was a confirmed pre tribber once myself, and know all the angles and what to look for.  That's why I say if "God Himself" didn't say it, then I do not want the theories of others to super-impose His word.  I hope you'll understand!]

Rev.4:1 ff  It isn't talking about the church at all but about "John"! - CLEAR AND SIMPLE!  (This is a typical pre trib teaching isn't it?  One where the pre tribber thinks they can throw out the rest of the book of Revelations, the Olivet Discourse and parts of Daniel as not applying to the them at all [because they claim they won't be here] but to the Jews instead.)

You say >>>The true Church of Philidelphia is the church that gives out the word of God.<<<

I don't know about you but according to simple and clear revelation it says that there  are "7" true churches.  Count 'em!

As for Rev.3:10 and keeping His word where does it show a "pre trib rapture" anywhere in that sentence???
One example - look at how the Jews of old were kept safe during the plagues of Egypt?

I see that you like to use Revelation 3:11   "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."

I wonder if you hold Rev. 16:15  in the same way - 
"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."  - right after the sixth vial is poured out???

Or are you saying that there's a difference between His "coming quickly" and "coming as a thief"??

As Christians we are commanded to watch for His appearing!

To this you wrote >>>2 Timothy 4:8   "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

Amen!

However, are you willing to throw in these "appearing" Scriptures as well?? --

2 Timothy 4:1  I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

(Or do you want to say that His appearing isn't also the same time that He sets up His visible kingdom on earth???  Also, John says that His appearing and His coming ("parousia") are one and the same) --

1 John 2:28  And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.


So with that let me ask you a very pertinent question, friend.
Who gave you your hope?  Who taught you "pre trib"?
 
If your hope is based on the return of an invisble (to the world) Christ 7 years before the end of the great trib. and mine is based on CLEAR AND SIMPLE SCRIPTURES like the Olivet Discourse, then how can we both have the same hope?  For the Scripture says that we are saved by hope - Rom.8:24 - better known as our Blessed Hope!

Revelation 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

I can , by the Scriptures, assure everyone of that --

Revelation 22:20  He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

I also can, because I believe what "God" (not what "man") says, verify that --

Acts 1:11  Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

And that is - He will appear "Visible, in the flesh... full of power and glory!"

You have yet to show me anything clear.  What YOU SAY is clear is nothing more than "Surmising" and "Speculation" and "spiritualizing" the word based on your theory that everything MUST be made to conform with and fit that doctrine.

Until you are ready to accept the clear and simple word of God AS IS, I'm afraid we're both whistling dixie.

Biff

I'm sorry but we are going to agree to disagree on this Biff. I don't have all the time I did before (to debate), as my work load at my Church has increased 6 fold. :'(

The Rapture of the Church has to take place before the mark of the beast because the antichrist cannot be revealed until the Church is raptured and the antichrist will be revealed before his mark is given to the world. Below is something I wrote years ago why I believe the church will be raptured before the antichrist is revealed.

 Here is why I believe the “Restrainer” of second Thess. 2 is the Holy Spirit.

First, we know the Restrainer is a person and not a force. According to verse 7 the restrainer is referred to as “He” two times. This also rules out the restrainer being a woman.

Second, the restrainer has to be powerful enough to restrain Satan who is the one who possesses  the “Son of perdition”. That eliminates man because the Scriptures teach that man is made lower than the angels which Satan was before the fall. Also Michael the arch angel did not fight Satan in his own strength when contending with him. Jude 1: 9 “Yet  Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.”  Michael’s victory over Satan was by the power of the Lord and not by his own strength. When man has victory over Satan it is the same way through the power of the Lord (Rev. 12:11). The only power that is powerful enough to prevail against Satan and his kingdom is God.

Third, John 16 shows the Holy Spirit was going to be sent to earth with a special purpose which involves all true believers in the Lord Jesus.

John 16:7 “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.  8  And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:  9  Of sin, because they believe not on me;  10  Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;  11  Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.  14  He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of  mine , and shall shew [it] unto you.  15  All things that the Father hath are mine : therefore said I, that he shall take of  mine , and shall shew [it] unto you.”

Notice that Jesus had to depart in order that He could send us the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the third person of the God head and therefore as God He is omnipresent which means He is everywhere. So how could Jesus send us the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit was already here? He sent the Holy Spirit in a new capacity with a different purpose, a new agenda you might say. What was this new agenda? According to the above verses it was to (1) “reprove the world of sin”, (2) “and of righteousness”, (3) “and of judgment”. All these things work in restraining lawlessness wouldn’t you agree? It is interesting to see how the Holy Spirit would carry out this mission. According to the above passage the Holy Spirit is being sent to the believers in Christ (after the cross) to carry out this new agenda. According to John 14 & 15 he will set up residence in the believers for all eternity. It is by indwelling believers in Christ Jesus that the Holy Spirit will carry out this new agenda. So in order for the Antichrist to be revealed the Holy Spirit will have to be removed in this capacity. If the Holy Spirit is removed in this capacity then those who are indwelt by Him for this purpose will have to be removed as well, that is why the rapture of the church has to take place before the Antichrist is revealed. The Holy Spirit as promised was sent in this new capacity in Acts two at Pentecost. Right away we see the Holy Spirit fulfilling this new function through the preaching of the apostles and the result was that thousands turned from their wicked ways unto the Lord. I would say this left quite a dent in the kingdom of Satan and restrained his influence quite effectively in the three thousand souls who were saved by the first message of Spirit filled apostles. Wouldn’t you agree?

Pilgrim

Amen Pilgrim!

I agree completely and received a blessing from your post. This is a critical topic for those who like to study end of the Age of Grace events. As an example, we know that the devil can't break the SEAL WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT on the hearts of believers. I'm thinking about what a precious TRUTH this is. This is just one reason why no power can pluck us from the Mighty Hands of GOD.

I know that many Christians might disagree with us, but I firmly believe that the Holy Spirit of GOD is the "Restrainer". Thanks for a very nice study. I'll copy it and want to enjoy it in more depth later.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Colossians 1:13-14 NASB  For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Hi guys, it's me again. I am glad we need not divide over this. Let me give you my take on the restrainer. I will let you know up front that I used to be pre trib but now an pre wrath. This is different than mid or post trib. Is'nt it wonderful that brethren can dwell together in unity in Christ and yet hold fifferent views and opinions of some issues!
I think the restrainer could be Michael the archangel. Yes, he does rely on the Lord for strength but that should not matter. The passage in 2 Thess. is Paul exhorting believers not to be deceived. When the lawless one is revealed to them then they will know that Christ's coming is eminent. Otherwise the passage make's no sense. The warning would not be neccessary if it was the Spirit and the Church that is taken out of the way. In that case the only ones left to be deceived would be the unbelievers. But Paul told the believers not to be decieved into thinking that they were in the day of the Lord. They could not be because Antichrist was not revealed to them yet. even then, they will be rescued from God's wrath (day of the Lord). It seems plain and simple to me. But who am I.
Now lets look at Michael for a moment.
Dan 12:1  And at that time shall Michael stand up,[strongs 5975] the great prince which standeth[strongs 5975] for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was,  a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Michael stands for Daniel's people Israel. Who is the number one enemy of Israel? It is none other than Satan. Whether or not he needs to rely on the Lord to fight Satan is irrelavent. It is plain to see that Michael fights for Israel.
Now look at the word "stand" or "stand up". the Hebrew word is used twice in this verse.
The word is amad.

H5975
עמד
‛âmad
aw-mad'
A primitive root; to stand, in various relations (literally and figuratively, intransitively and transitively): - abide (behind), appoint, arise, cease, confirm, continue, dwell, be employed, endure, establish, leave, make, ordain, be [over], place, (be) present (self), raise up, remain, repair, + serve, set (forth, over, -tle, up), (make to, make to be at a, with-) stand (by, fast, firm, still, up), (be at a) stay (up), tarry.

Amad has several usages in the Old Testament: stand (by, fast, firm, still, up). when Israel at the time of entering into the promised land crossed the Jordan river at flood stage the Bible says that the river "stood up" (amad) in an heap. In another passage we read that the sun "stood still" (amad). There are others I could quote but you could do your own search too. Let it be said that in this verse in Dan 12:1 the first mention of amad could be translated "stand still". this would actually make sense out of the verse. You see Michael is already standing for Israel at the time of Daniel's writing, Why would he need to stand up when he is already standing up? But if he were to stand still and stop fighting, so as to allow great tribulation to begin, no longer restraining the Antichrist, then the verse makes perfect sense.
When does the great trib begin according to Jesus in Matthew 24? Let's read:

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The trib or trouble begins mid 70th week for Israel. Antichrist defiles the holy place mid week because Michael stands still.

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.   

The time of trouble and the great tribulation are the same event. Michael will "amad" to initiate the great tribulation in the middle of the 70th week. He will cease to restrain and the lawless one will be revealed for who he truly is by sitting in the temple proclaiming himself to be God. Of course we Christians will not follow him nor take the mark. The Coming of Jesus will be emminent from that time on. When Christ does come he will send his angels gathering his elect. After this gathering, then the Day of the Lord begins.

now read the verse in Dan 12:1 with the change of "stand up" to "stand still".

Dan 12:1  And at that time shall Michael stand [still], the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Read Paul in 2 Thess 2:

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
 
asaph  Hallelujah!
 

 

Hello Brother Asaph!

Brother, it's great to hear from you and see you back on the forum. We've missed you.

I enjoy studying various views of Bible Prophecy and have copied your post for more detailed study later.

I still think that it should be possible for Brothers and Sisters in Christ to discuss various opinions about Bible Prophecy in calm, but we did have several failures in the past, so many of us rarely debate Bible Prophecy now. It isn't a Salvation issue, so it should never divide Brothers and Sisters in Christ. We had one new user not to long ago who stated that anyone who believes in the Rapture of the Church is a heretic, and that was his first post. He rejected them all (i.e. pre, mid, post, pre-wrath, etc.). Discussions like that with name calling don't make anyone happy except the devil.

We have had some lengthy and fascinating studies on Bible Prophecy, and the best ones involved everyone studying the various opinions and trying to stay calm at the same time.  :D  This was impossible for some folks, and I understand how people can get sensitive about opinions formed with many years of study.

Maybe we can have another discussion some day and get everyone to agree up-front to remain civil to those with different opinions. In fact, I would consider talking about it now if there was enough interest.

Brother, it's great to have you back.

Love In Christ,
Tom

2 Timothy 4:7-8 NASB  I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Well said Brother Tom!
I often wonder the real reason behind debating a subject.  Is it for ones own personal pride in the knowledge that they feel they have gained, or is it out of love and learning?  I know in my own family Biblical issues and debates have brought about anger, my own self included.  I try very hard, especially now, to take in all sides of an argument.  If my mind gets jumbled then it leads to prayer, which is a very good thing.  My family had a discussion on this very topic just this past Easter, and I was very blessed when we opened it with a prayer and a reminder that, no matter what our opinion on the rapture, we are saved through the blood of Jesus Christ, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.  I'm very interested in this subject but for some reason the Lord has placed on my heart to be in prayer, not about knowledge of the end times, but for those to believe in Him.  I'm doing the same, taking these points that are made here to study.  May we all be blessed by the Word of our Lord!  My interpretation will be made shortly.
-Am-

I revised my post so if you read this previously please read again.
Hi Tom
I have always appreciated your spirit. you reflect the grace of Christ. Gentle and tough is how I would describe you. Keep up the good work. Stay in the word and close to Jesus.
I have learned not to be dogmatic in "last things". But I feel I am pretty certain that the coming of the Lord is not in two phases but one. First we have the appearing of the lawless one who makes a covenant with many for 7 years. For three and a half years he will be very low keyed as to his true identity in order to establish credibility with the Jews and to strengthen his hold. I believe the elect will recognise him for who he is but most of the world will shrug off anything the true believers say.  But in the middle of the week he will show his true colors (abomination of desolation) and begin a huge persecution of both Jews and Christians. Jesus commanded those in Jerusalem to flee at that time for the obvious reason that his campain begins there. This persecution is called by Jesus  "great tribulation", not to be confused with the wrath of God. Christians are not subject to wrath but will receive deliverance at the initial part of Christ's parousia when he will send his angels to gather his elect from the 4 corners of the earth. This action cuts short those days of persecution of Antichrist. Except those days were shortened none would have been delivered, but for the elects sake those days are shortened. After this gathering or rapture, the seventh seal is opened and the wrath of God begins. The wrath of God includes the seven trumpets and the 7 vials or bowls. You will notice that it is not the seven years that are shortened but the persecution by antichrist. The wrath of God continues the seven years and even beyond. For in Daniel 12:11 it says and I quote: "  And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12  Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
  1290 is 30 days beyond 1260. 1335 days is another 45 days beyond the 1290. So we see that there is an extention of time after the 3 and a half years concerning the wrath of God. I believe that the 30 days is the bowl judgement and the 45 days is the restoration period during which the sheep and goat separation of Matthew 25 takes place. They are blessed that come to the end of that period, according to Daniel.
I know this is moving way too fast for most  but may I recommend a book that will walk you through it with Bible to back it up? "The Sign" by the late Robert VanKampen. It's the easiest way I know to bring all the pieces together.
Following is a list of passages or verses that I base my interpretation.

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Mat 24:4  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Dan 12:1  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
1Th 1:10  And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Rev 7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 8:6  And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
Rev 15:7  And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth forever and ever.
Dan 12:10  Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Dan 12:11  And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12  Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Dan 12:13  But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
Mat 25:31  When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32  And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33  And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 

God Richly and I mean Richly bless you.

Love you all,

Keith Jones- asaph

Hello all,

Sorry I've been gone so long, and I don't even have time for a full post now, so I'll make a quick response to Pilgrim.

Pilgrim:

1)  In what way is my line of reasoning faulty as regards the Scriptures that I brought up?

2)  You've said that the Holy Spirit can be everywhere and yet not be performing in certain capacities.  If "the restrainer" is the Holy Spirit, couldn't the 2 Thess. passage simply be saying that the Holy Spirit will no longer restrain, even though he is still present?

Christ's Serf

Brothers and Sisters,

So far, this has the beginnings of an interesting thread to study. We have various opinions, and we are still treating each other as members of the household of faith. This is the type of discussion that I enjoy. I would like to mention three major issues just for thought and discussion, and they will impact everything that has been said here so far in one way or another.

1.  Daniel's 70 Weeks were "determined against" Israel, not the church which is the BODY OF CHRIST. The church which is the BODY OF CHRIST was a complete mystery to Daniel. So, please keep in mind that Israel and the BODY OF CHRIST are two different entities with some promises that apply to both and some that do NOT apply to both.

2.  All saved people reading this post right now were saved by Grace, and the Holy Spirit of God lives in their hearts RIGHT NOW. In fact, our hearts are SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT and no power in the universe can break that seal, certainly not the devil.

3.  Again, all saved people reading this post were saved by Grace, and winning a fight or dying in a fight with the devil was NOT part of GOD'S Plan of Salvation for this age of Grace. Note this carefully: Believers who take the mark of the beast in the Tribulation Period are damned for eternity. To be saved during the Tribulation Period, believers must reject the mark of the beast, endure to the end, be hunted, and even be beheaded to KEEP OR MAINTAIN SALVATION. Great hosts will do just that, and great hosts will be beheaded, but this is NOT a part of the Plan of Salvation for the Age of Grace.  Note this VERY CAREFULLY:  Regardless of how long I live, my heart will still be SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, and GOD'S Plan of Salvation will NOT be changed for me. I've already been given the Promises of GOD, and my heart is SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT as a pledge of those promises.

Brothers and Sisters, put it together and see what you come up with. Regardless of what opinion you make, you already know that GOD can't lie, and GOD will never break a promise. It doesn't make any difference whether I live, I die, or what happens tomorrow in the world - my Citizenship is in Heaven, and I've already been QUICKENED into the BODY OF CHRIST FOREVER WITH JESUS! I simply say AMEN!  Brothers and Sisters, please don't mistake this as me meaning that I have anything other than the same Salvation you have. Now, try to mix this with the Tribulation Period and the mark of the beast to see what conclusion you make.

Before I forget, thanks for an interesting thread and some excellent material to study.

Love In Christ,
Tom

2 Corinthians 9:8 NASB  And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed;

Amen Brother, it is wonderful to see Brothers and Sisters have a friendly discussion and we all learn a little.

I for one am now studying further into this topic.

Brothers and Sisters keep up the great discussion

Jeremiah 30:7

1.  Daniel's 70 Weeks were "determined against" Israel, not the church which is the BODY OF CHRIST. The church which is the BODY OF CHRIST was a complete mystery to Daniel. So, please keep in mind that Israel and the BODY OF CHRIST are two different entities with some promises that apply to both and some that do NOT apply to both.

True, the church was a mystery to the old testament prophets. But the Church was birthed while Israel, the temple and the sacrifices were still in place. AD 70 brought an end to the above. Just as the church was in existence before AD70, when God was dealing specifically with Israel, there is no reason to think that the church will not be there in part of the 70th week when He will continue to deal with Israel.

2.  All saved people reading this post right now were saved by Grace, and the Holy Spirit of God lives in their hearts RIGHT NOW. In fact, our hearts are SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT and no power in the universe can break that seal, certainly not the devil.

I Totally agree.

3.  Again, all saved people reading this post were saved by Grace, and winning a fight or dying in a fight with the devil was NOT part of GOD'S Plan of Salvation for this age of Grace. Note this carefully: Believers who take the mark of the beast in the Tribulation Period are damned for eternity. To be saved during the Tribulation Period, believers must reject the mark of the beast, endure to the end, be hunted, and even be beheaded to KEEP OR MAINTAIN SALVATION. Great hosts will do just that, and great hosts will be beheaded, but this is NOT a part of the Plan of Salvation for the Age of Grace.  Note this VERY CAREFULLY:  Regardless of how long I live, my heart will still be SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, and GOD'S Plan of Salvation will NOT be changed for me. I've already been given the Promises of GOD, and my heart is SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT as a pledge of those promises.

Believers will not take the mark. As a consequence many will be martyred, but not for salvation. I do not believe there are two plans of salvation.  Since Christ suffered, died, and rose again all must come through faith in Jesus Christ no matter what period of time or circumstances they find themselves in. In the seventieth week God is dealing with Israel for the purpose of preparing her to receive Christ as Lord and Savior, Phrophet, Priest, and King. The church is there through part of the 70th week as witnesses right up to the parousia of Christ. Enduring to the end is not for eternal salvation, we already possess that, but for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time, as Peter says. It is the final redemption of the body in rapture as Paul says. You have to remember that though satan cannot take away our salvation he can make us defeated Christians and ineffective in our walk and witness with God. He is still like a roaring lion seeking to devour us. Overcomers will recieve special rewards. I will be the first to admit that I do not have perfect light on last things, (I only wish that others would admit the same), but I do believe, as the Day of Christ approaches, we will recieve more light as events unfold and the Holy Spirit teaches.

1Pe 1:5  Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Rom 8:18  For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19  For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21  Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22  For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23  And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24  For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25  But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Kindly Submitted,

asaph

Here is how human dispensations are seperated in human history........


Biblical Dispensations.....

Adam to flood...Pre-Deluveon civilization...(gentile.. Genisis 1:11----the fall----flood----babel)

From flood to christ.....Post Deluveon civilization....(promise and law.... Promise-gen 12 thru exodus 19....Law-Exodus 19 thru Malachi gospels (-Jn 13-17)....promise-Abraham, Isaac, Jacob.....Law-Moses.....promise-Abrahamic Covenant....Law- law of Moses

Curch age...present time....Grace (mystery)-acts 2 thruRev. 5-Epistles....Paul, Peter, John.....Giving of the Holy Spirit

Rapture...moment in time...saints w/Christ in Heaven....1 Thes 4:13-18

Trial and Tribulation....Un-believers left on earth .....7 yrs....last 31/2 years, (Satan cast out of heaven Rev. 12:9) at the end of last 31/2 yrs., battle of Armageddon...Second advent  Rev. 14:11-15 (with the saints)....Jewish-Rev 6-19.....Anti-christ-144,000, true Jewish witnesses.....Abomination of Desolation-Armaggedon Matt 24:15-16


Millenium.....1000 yrs. ...perfect environment....Rev. 20....Kingdom of Christ

At the end of Millenium....battle og Gog & Magog

Then starts eternity...new heaven and earth.....great white throne judgement.....eternal hell

(the first 31/2 yrs of Trial and Tribulation beast 1 &2 makes FALSE covenant with Isreal...Isa. 28:15-18....Last 31/2 yrs. man of sin (satan) demands worship..2 Thes.2...political power.[/size]

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The first resurrection contains those who were beheaded for refusing to take the Mark of the Beast. The dead in Christ must rise before the living are raptured. Therefore, the Rapture must take place after the Mark of the Beast.

Christ's Serf

Here the phrase, "the first resurrection" does not infer that there was no resurrection prior to this one but rather this resurrection is in the class of or order of the first resurrection. Let me post a brief commentary concerning this, which will clarify what I am saying.

This is the first resurrection = clarifies the significance of the resurrection of the beheaded faithful. Their resurrection is a part of a larger event that can correctly be described as "the first resurrection." Since only the beheaded dead are described as resurrected in Revelation 20:4, this must be a part of a greater whole. For the resurrection will include all the saints of all the ages. The only biblical solution is to recognize the explanation of the apostle Paul. 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 states,

    For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

Paul clearly delineates several groupings, all of which constitute "the first resurrection." Christ is described as the first fruits. Metaphorically, if Christ is the first fruits, then the rest of the harvest follows later. Paul is using the figure of speech taken from agriculture. Any farmer knows that a crop does not ripen all at once. Usually, a small portion ripen first, then the largest portion ripens and lastly a small portion ripens late. In keeping with Paul’s figure of speech, whether one is taken as the first fruits, the general harvest or the last of the harvest, all fruit would be considered part of the harvest. There is one harvest regardless of when the fruit is picked.

The next gathering of ripened fruit (resurrection of the dead) will occur at the Lord’s coming (parousia). The apostle Paul describes it as a "snatching away" of the righteous living and dead. Paul indicates that this event will occur at the Lord’s coming (parousia) (1 Thess 4:16). Revelation 20:4 indicates a final group (the late harvest) will finish the harvest begun with the resurrection of Jesus. This harvest from Christ to the beheaded dead constitutes "the first resurrection."

I hope this helps.

asaph

Brothers and Sisters,

Here's a couple of more interesting facts to consider. If you want more details that you can possibly want, there are threads still here on the forum with tremendous details that are heavily documented with Scripture.

First, I think you will find this very interesting for study. The Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Christ are two separate events. For the Rapture of the Church, JESUS CHRIST will NOT come all the way down to the earth, rather the church which is the BODY OF CHRIST will be "caught up" to meet the LORD in the air.

At the Second Coming of Christ, JESUS CHRIST will definitely come all the way down to the earth, and there will be a list of terrible events against evil. There will be "hosts" in the armies that follow JESUS CHRIST. Who are the members of those armies? I'll give you a hint and say that I'm firmly convinced that I will be one of those in the hosts following CHRIST.

I've just covered a few of the major reasons why I believe that the church which is the BODY OF CHRIST will be raptured before the beginning of the Tribulation Period. There are many other reasons why I firmly believe this, but I will quickly say this is simply my opinion. I've studied other various time lines and sequence of events that I can't get to mesh with Scriptures, but others have said the same about my opinion. Their are five general opinions about the Tribulation Period that have been debated for centuries. One of the important things for us to remember is that other Brothers and Sisters in Christ held these opinions."Which group is right or wrong isn't worth division or anyone getting angry. They are:

1 - Preterist - The Tribulation Period happened in 70 AD and is old history. They have various thoughts about the Rapture and various thoughts about what age we might be living in now.

2 - Pre-Tribulation - The timing of the Rapture.

3 - Mid-Tribulation - The timing of the Rapture,

4 - Post-Tribulation - The timing of the Rapture.

5 - Pre-Wrath - The Rapture occurring before God starts pouring out any of HIS Wrath on the earth.

I've seen fairly logical and heavily documented arguments for all of them except "Preterist", as that would mean we are already living in the Kingdom Age, but longer than the 1,000 years prescribed in the Bible. However, please don't take this as any hint that I'm making fun of the good Christians who believe this. We will all be spending eternity together with JESUS - I just don't understand the evidence or logic for this view. But, that could be my problem instead of their problem, and it really doesn't make any difference for Salvation.

Brothers and Sisters, I do believe that genuine believers in JESUS will lose Salvation in the Tribulation Period by taking the mark of the beast. There's a reason why the Holy Bible mentions this, and it doesn't mesh with the Age of Grace that we live in now. Others may call the time we live in now as the "Church Age" or other titles I can't remember right now.

So far, we've done excellent, and nobody is upset or calling anyone names.  :D  That's great and I hope it stays that way. We've also mentioned several different opinions with highlights that would take many pages of documentation.  So, for now I would say:  everyone pat yourselves on the back for being nice. I'm enjoying the various opinions and taking notes for additional study. Several hundred feet of books have been written on this topic, so it is obviously a very difficult and time-consuming Bible Study. JESUS CHRIST must be and is the center focus for all proper studies of this issue, and the study takes one all over the Bible. It's a fascinating learning experience, regardless of what conclusion you end up with about timing and sequence of events. With JESUS CHRIST as the central focus, this is a very worthy study.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 1:21-22 NASB  For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.  But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.

Brothers and Sisters-
Mid trib and post trib could actually set a date once the 70th week of Daniel begins. That is one reason I reject those positions. Bo one can know the day or the hour.

Mid Trib-This view emerged in 1941 with the publication of the book, "The End: Rethinking the Revelation" by Norman B. Harrison. They believe that the Rapture of the Church will occur at the mid-point of the seventieth week of Daniel. They see the second half of the seventieth week as the wrath of God and as a result the church will not be here when God pours out His wrath on the earth.

Post trib-There are a number of views in the posttribulation camp. Some posttribulationalists see the church in tribulation since its beginnings and do not view the seven year period as futuristic. The most prevalent view today is that the seven year period is yet in the future, and that although the Church will experience this time of tribulation, it will be sheltered by God's protection before the second coming. George Ladd in his book "The Blessed Hope" and Robert Gundry in his book "The Church and The Tribulation" both teach that the church will experience the seven year period which will conclude with the rapture of the church.

Pre trib-This view was first known as "the secret" or "any moment rapture." It is a relatively new position which was first taught by the founder of the Catholic Apostolic Church, Edward Irving in the late 1820's. It was then picked up by Plymouth Brethren pastor John Nelson Darby, and he first preached on it in 1843. It came to America in the late 1800's and was popularized by C.I. Schofield when he revised his Bible notes in 1917. Pretribulationists teach that the return of Christ has been imminent since the days of the early church and that the church will be raptured sometime before the seventieth week begins. Although they have no Scripture that in so many words teaches it, they teach that there are no signs and the rapture could take place at any moment. The seventieth week of Daniel is therefore considered to be a seven-year period of God's judgmental "tribulation" (hence the term pretribulation). This position generally views the seventieth week as the day of the Lord's wrath from which the church is excluded.

Pre wrath-The Prewrath position teaches that the true church will be raptured when the great tribulation by Antichrist, inspired by Satan, is cut short by God's day-of-the-Lord wrath, which will occur between the sixth and seventh seals of Revelation, sometime during the second half of the seventieth week. The persecution associated with the great tribulation of Antichrist is viewed as the wrath of Satan, whereas the events that follow, beginning with the seventh seal, are considered the wrath of God. There is another term that is sometimes expressed, "historical premillennialism," which refers back to the teaching of the early church fathers before 325 A.D. They believed that the church would face the persecution of Antichrist and Christ would then reign for 1000 years upon the earth. With the exception of two, Origen and Clement of Alexandria, who were allegorists, they all taught this view. Prewrath is plainly and simply an expansion of this view which was biblical then and biblical now.

asaph

I've seen fairly logical and heavily documented arguments for all of them except "Preterist", as that would mean we are already living in the Kingdom Age, but longer than the 1,000 years prescribed in the Bible. However, please don't take this as any hint that I'm making fun of the good Christians who believe this. We will all be spending eternity together with JESUS - I just don't understand the evidence or logic for this view. But, that could be my problem instead of their problem, and it really doesn't make any difference for Salvation.

BEP-
You said it well. I reject the preterist view but I know some very kind and loving christians who hold this view. I also go to a Missionary Alliance Church that holds to the pre trib rapture.

1Jo 1:3  ... and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

asaph

Hi Christ's Serf-
I would like to give my views on the last trump. First, let me quote Roger Best. I think he sums up pretty well my views concerning the last trumpet:

A grammatical and lexical study demonstrates that 1 Corinthians 15:52 denotes the actual blasting of a trumpet. The idea is that of a last blast of a particular trumpet. At the last blast of a trumpet, the dead will be raised. The name of this trumpet is not "the last trumpet." This is not what Paul is indicating here. Rather, the focus is on the sound of the trumpet. This passage gives no clue what trumpet is blown. Only that when the last blast occurs, the dead will be raised.

Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 that this trumpet is the trumpet of God. This is the actual name of the trumpet which will be blown at the rapture, the last blast of which will signal the time of resurrection for dead saints. The first time the trumpet of God appears in Scripture can be traced back to Exodus 19:10-20:21. There the trumpet not only served to alert the people to the coming of God into man's domain, but also to warn the people of the seriousness of the moment. This will be the case again at the rapture of the church when God the Father comes with Jesus to deliver the righteous and begin the punishment of the wicked.

The seventh trumpet of Revelation is but one of seven trumpets that introduces judgment against the world. These trumpets do not introduce one example of deliverance. They are clearly the judgment of God against those who dwell on the earth. The sequences demands that the church be removed before the first trumpet because the wrath of God is involved.

Isaiah 27:13 states, "It will come about also in that day that a great trumpet will be blown; and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem." This passage indicates that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is not the last trumpet to be blown in human history. This trumpet called the "great trumpet" will call Israel back to the land after the Seventieth week of Daniel ends.
Thus we can conclude correctly that Paul's trumpet blast and the trumpets of Revelation are not the same.

Let me add, if the rapture occurs at the last trumpet in Revelation's then where did those saints come from that are seen in heaven just prior to the blowing of the first trumpet? It is said that they came out of great tribulation. I believe this refers to the coming out of the persecution inflicted by antchrist and that it cut short those days of persecution.

Rev 7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10  And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11  And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshiped God,
Rev 7:12  Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, be unto our God forever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25  Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26  Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
 
There is something that shortens those days. What is it? The saints are raptured at the Lord's coming prior to the seventh seal which contains the seven trumpets. This, in my opinion is what shortens those days of persecution.

After they leave there will be yet another group that will be resurrected later.

Look at Rev 20:

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Who are the throne sitters? The identity of these throne-sitters is not explicitly indicated. In the context of the millennial reign of Christ, these individuals must be the faithful saints of the ages. Otherwise, there is no mention of the saints in general connected with the 1000-year reign of Christ at this point in the Revelation. However, unlike the beheaded martyrs to follow, these individuals are already seated on the thrones when John sees them. They have already received the right to render judgments. Therefore, their resurrection must have preceded John’s sighting of them. This accords with Revelation 11:18, which indicated the rewarding of the saints preceded the final wrath of God through the bowl judgments. Since the millennial reign follows the bowl judgments, the saints will have been judged already and anticipating the reign of Christ to begin.
Who are the beheaded ones? Many commentators generalize this group into the whole of saints throughout the ages, but this conclusion is not necessary. John specifically indicates that this group was beheaded. Pelikizein meaning "to behead with an axe" is very specific. Some try to make Revelation 6:9, which refers to martyrs and Revelation 20:4 refer to the same group. However, this again is a case of over generalizing the similarities to the neglect of the differences. For John to refer to all believers as martyrs indicates a gross abuse of both language and truth. To behead with an axe limits the application of Revelation 20:4 to those so killed. However, Revelation 6:9 uses a term that could describe death resulting from many different possibilities. This simply is not the case in Revelation 20:4. There are two groups described in Revelation 20:4—the throne-sitters and the beheaded faithful. The beheaded faithful refused to worship the beast or his image, which is the expressed requirement to live on the earth during the reign of the dragon. The gravity of one’s refusal to worship the beast can be seen in the consequence—beheading.

asaph

Hello Asaph:

No, John didn't say that that was all he saw, he just stated that he saw the beheaded dead.  He could very well have seen others and just not mentioned them.

No he doesn't.  He states that Christ is the first fruits and that those which are Christ's will be ressurected when He returns.  He does not say that there will be a "general harvest" and a "late harvest", nor does he say that Christ was part of the first ressurection.  Is there any passage of Scripture which specifically mentions a "general harvest" and a "late harvest"?

This interpretation figuratizes the term "first resurrection".  Of course there were earlier people who were resurrected, but those events were never described as part of a "first resurrection.

I'll reply to your other post in a bit.

In Yahweh's Love and Truth

Christ's Serf

Hello Christserf,
I posed the question:
Let me add, if the rapture occurs at the last trumpet in Revelation's then where did those saints come from that are seen in heaven just prior to the blowing of the first trumpet?

Your answer:
There's no indication here that they were Raptured.  I think that they were in heaven because they were killed.  Is there some reason to think otherwise?

My response:
Lets read the verse:
Rev 7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

They stood. They had legs, feet and hands. This is a description of resurrected bodies.

Rev 7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Commentary:
These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation = is full of interpretive insights. First, the elder is answering the second question asked in verse 13b, "from where have they come?" In English, a "where" question usually anticipates a specific location. However, a specific place is not given but a specific time is indicated. The great tribulation has one parallel in Scripture—Matthew 24:21. In that specific passage, the definite article the is not used. As one of the original recipients of the Olivet Discourse (Mark 13:3), John, the apostle, heard Jesus use this very specific term. Therefore, his use reflects previous knowledge. The great tribulation is not a place, but a specific time. This is reflected in the translation of NASB, which states, "For those days will be a time of tribulation…(Mark 13:19)." This is in harmony with Daniel 12:1, which also calls this period "a time of distress." This universally innumerable multitude will arrive in heaven during the period of the great tribulation.

Out of suggests that this universally innumerable multitude come out of the midst of the great tribulation. The phrase, the ones who come translates a Greek substantival participle. In the context, the universally innumerable multitude is composed of "the ones who come." The participle in and of itself does not speak to issue of the timing of their arrival. However, this group is not in the process of coming one by one, but they come as a group. This is supported by the following statement.

They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb = answers the second question posted in verse 13b above. The fact that the Lord states that overcomers "shall be clothed in white garments (Rev 3:5)," and that the Laodiceans should purchase "white garments, that the shame [of their] nakedness may not be revealed…(Rev 3:18)," limits the interpretation of Revelation 7:14b. The fact that every member of the universally innumerable multitude has "washed and made white" his robes removes any possibility that martyrdom is the action described here. While some members of the universally innumerable multitude did die the death of a martyr, this cannot be said for the entire group. Yet, every single member "washed and made white" his or her robe.

The fact that both the "washing" and the "making white" are described as past tense forces the participle "the ones who come" to be past tense as well. The Greek language works this way. This supports our conclusion that the universally innumerable multitude arrives in heaven as a group and not as individuals over a period of time.

If they all arrived at exactly the same time then this indicates a rapture and not a gradual arriving as would be the case of souls being martyred over a period of time.

asaph

I do not see it figuratizes it at all. If anything it make real the figures of the Old Testament. The bible says we will be in the likeness of his resurrection. If He was not raised then neither will we. First fruits is part of the same harvest which comes later. The first resurrection is pictured by the harvest in nature. The harvest comes in stages.

The fact that only the beheaded are mentioned here is significant. I need not restate my stand here.

In conclusion, the things that happen in the OT are types or pictures of the realities of the new testament. They are figures of things to come. The harvest is no exception to this. That does not make Rev.20 figurative, it makes it the fulfilment of the figures. There is a difference.

Thank you,

asaph

 

Quote
Isaiah 27:13 states, "It will come about also in that day that a great trumpet will be blown; and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem." This passage indicates that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is not the last trumpet to be blown in human history. This trumpet called the "great trumpet" will call Israel back to the land after the Seventieth week of Daniel ends.
Where does he get his timing for this "great trumpet"?  As you can see in the beginning of the verse Isaiah is speaking of "that day".  He has been talking of "that day" for a long time.  Here's another thing that he says about "that day".

sa 25:8-9 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken [it].  And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this [is] our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this [is] the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

You are right. THAT DAY has a wider range of application than just the 70th week. It also includes the 1000 year reign of Christ.The timing of this trumpet sound fits best after the 70th week. Israel certainly is not worshiping the Lord today, they will not worship him till after the 70th week.

asaph

Quote
There is something that shortens those days. What is it? The saints are raptured at the Lord's coming prior to the seventh seal which contains the seven trumpets. This, in my opinion is what shortens those days of persecution.
Yes, the Lord's coming does shorten the days of persecution, but does that tell us anything about how long we're gong to be persecuted before Jesus shortens the days?

But you said that the rapture is at the end of the 70th week. So how was anything shortened if that is the case?

asaph

Quote
Therefore, their resurrection must have preceded John’s sighting of them. This accords with Revelation 11:18, which indicated the rewarding of the saints preceded the final wrath of God through the bowl judgments. Since the millennial reign follows the bowl judgments, the saints will have been judged already and anticipating the reign of Christ to begin.
Immediately after Revelation 11 is the prophecy of the woman with twelve stars who gave birth to a man child.  This (I think) has always been taken to be a parable to the birth of Christ.  Hence, at this point, Revelation jumps out of chronological sequence with the preceding chapters.  I think that Rev. 11:18 and 20:4 are describing the same event.  Look at the parrellels and let me know if you disagree.

I believe that Rev 12 is partially parenthetical. It fills in details of what this universal war is all about. I do not think chapter 11 is parenthetical at all.

Rev 11:18  And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

In 11:18 judgement is taking place where God himself is rewarding the saints. I believe this is the judgement seat of Christ.
In 20:4 who are they that sat upon thrones? I believe these are those who received their rewards at the Judgement Seat of Christ and are now on thrones judging others. You see judgement was given unto them. So this could not be God judging because He does not receive power to judge  but rather has given judgement power to His saints. God is the Greatest Judge, why would He be given judgement? So it must be the saints judging in 20:4.

asaph

Hello Asaph:

In the account of the rich man and Lazarus (Lk 16:23-24) the rich man is described as having eyes, however, this is before the resurrection of the unrighteous.  Furthermore, the unrighteous are never promised resurrected bodies.  Therefore, the mention of a body part does not necessitate that a bodily resurrection has occured.  It may imply it, but it doesn't necessitate it.

1)  The phrase "the ones who come" is made up of two Greek words.  Which word contains the substantival participle?

Why?

Agreed and agreed.

Reference?  The 1 Cor. passage doesn't state that.

Yes, harvests do come in stages, but is the event which is called "the first resurrection" ever referred to as coming in stages?  You can't take a parabolic term like 'harvest' and add more meanings to it then are given in Scripture.  For instance, we should be as harmless as doves, and doves also lay eggs; that doesn't mean that we should lay eggs.

I found an important fact about Rev. 20:4.  The words "I saw" were added to the text by the English translators; I think it was an error to do so.  Without the addition the verse reads:

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them and the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, ...

Hence, the ones beheaded for the witness of Jesus are actually part of those who are sitting on the thrones.

Neither do I.  I think that from the first seal to the seventh trumpet it is chronological, then it is parenthetical between the trumpets and the vials of wrath.

I agree.  So far in my mind the time sequence is: seventh trumpet, rapture, saints given judgement, saints sit on thrones and judge.

Actually, I didn't say anything about the 70th week, that was part of the quote of the commentator that you mentioned.  To be honest, I don't see how the 70th week extends beyond a few years after Christ's death; but maybe there's a connection and I never saw it.

Christ's Serf

Quote
First fruits is part of the same harvest which comes later.
Reference?  The 1 Cor. passage doesn't state that.

1Co 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Firstfruts is the promise of a full harvest that same season. There are many things that are not explicit in scripture but are implicit. Jesus used a lot of parables that were by no means explicit in their meanings. He used nature and familiar things to teach. Paul was relying on the readers understanding of the nature of harvest. He assumed they would understand that first fruits is connected with the ingathering of the main harvest. What I say is this harvest is the first resurrection which is tied to firstfruits. First resurrection only involves the righteous. But includes all the righteous, not just the beheaded ones of Rev. 20. I take Rev 20 as literal, only the beheaded are raised at that point and yet are counted at being included in the first resurrection.
My interpretation is warranted and supported by scripture and you are entitled to disagree.
I think we both agree that we will experience the persecution by antichrist. We both agree that God's wrath is not the same as the wrath of Satan and that we will be spared God's wrath. We differ as to means of being spared His wrath. I believe we will be taken out, you believe we will be protected from His wrath. The timing of the rapture is, therefore, in question. I will tell you what. Come and see me when I it is shown that I was right after all. I promise I will not say "I told you so".

asaph
 

Quote
But you said that the rapture is at the end of the 70th week. So how was anything shortened if that is the case?
Actually, I didn't say anything about the 70th week, that was part of the quote of the commentator that you mentioned.  To be honest, I don't see how the 70th week extends beyond a few years after Christ's death; but maybe there's a connection and I never saw it.

Christ's Serf

Are you partial preterist in your understanding? If so I really do not want to go any further with this discussion. I believe you are my brother in Christ but I find it very unfruitful to debate against your stand. I do appreciate your gentleness. I have a friend who believes the same. We get along fine. I have investigated the preterist and partial preterist doctrines and cannot come to agree with them. Sorry.

Love in Christ

Asaph:

No, I'm not.  It's just that I've never heard of the 70 weeks being brought up in discussing the Rapture, and I never thought of the 70 weeks as equalling any more than a year per day.  Perhaps you could explain what you mean.

Even if this is true, does any author say that the "main harvest" is split between the "general harvest" and the "late harvest" of those beheaded for the Mark of the Beast?

But Rev. 20 doesn't say that only the beheaded were raised.  Did you read what I said about the words "I saw" being added by the translators?

If your interpretation is the truth then I am not entitled to disagree with you, because none of us are entitled to disagree with the truth.

Yes, I agree with that.  Let me ask you this: do you think that Christians should try to remove themselves from people who wish to persecute them?

Christ's Serf

I'm sorry about this post. I do not know how to itemize each response in the correct fashion as you did.

     Bless your heart for such a great post...
             love.   Tina

   I LOVE this phrase ... AMEN!!

             in His service.. Tina

Hello Asaph, sorry to take so long.

What I do is, while in "post reply" mode,  I copy the section I want to quote and paste it to my message; then highlight it and click on the "quote" button above the text box.

First, would you agree that in prophecy any given time span usually does not contain an interruption?  Second, you say that Israel still has "7 years of God's dealings with them".  This is rather vague.  What the passage says is that the 70 weeks are determined "to close the transgression, and to make an end of sins," etc.  It doesn't say that if they don't make an end of sins then He will no longer have any "dealings" with them.  Also, you presume that these "dealings" are connected to the prophecies in Revelations.  Here's the best interpretation that I've seen so far:

The 69 weeks end when Messiah is announced.  Note that it says "after" 69 weeks shall Messiah be cut off, not "at the end of" the 69th week.  "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:" refers to the Messiah, not the Antichrist.  Notice that it says that he shall "confirm" the covenant, not "make" a covenant.  Many say that this verse means that the Antichrist will make a covenant between Israel and her enemies, but the word "make" is not in here.  "in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" means that in the midst of the week, when Messiah is cut off, Messiah will cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease by instituting the new covenant through His death, in which there is no more sacrifice for sin.  As for the rest of the week, the disciples still stayed in Israel and preached there for several years after Jesus' death; until persecution drove them abroad.  This was when the kingdom was taken from them and given to a nation bringing forth fruits, and this ended the 70th week.

The Greek word in that instance is "kai", and it is a general conjuction.  It can be translated and, also, even, indeed, or but.  If it is translated "even" then it would read "I saw thrones, and they sat upon them ... even the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus...".

Indeed, when persecution cannot be avoided then it should be received with joy.  But do you think that there are any cases in which persecution could be avoided but it should not be?  If so, please specify.

Christ's Serf

by Anthony Buzzard

 

       The debate over the pre- or post-tribulation rapture should really be called the debate about the pre- or post-trib resurrection. The discussion is about the place of the resurrection in the sequence of end-time events. Will there be a resurrection of the church before the onset of the great tribulation of Daniel’s 70th week? Pre-tribulationism says that the faithful will be resurrected seven years before Christ’s return in power and glory. (This is a new teaching dating from the 1830s, never heard of before that time.)

       Both sides of the argument agree that there will indeed be a resurrection of the dead after the tribulation. But the pre-trib. camp maintains that this post-trib. resurrection has nothing to do with the church — because the Christians will have been resurrected before the tribulation.

       The two positions may be illustrated very simply thus:

       

A
 ---SEVEN-YEAR PERIOD--
 B
 
Pre-trib. secret coming of Jesus
 
 Post-trib. Second Coming of Jesus
 
Pre-trib. rapture/resurrection of Church
 
 Post-trib. Rapture/Resurrection of Church
 

 

       The question is this: Where in Scripture is there a mention of a resurrection before the tribulation period? Consider these facts:   

       1) The Resurrection in Daniel 12:2 (“Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake....”) occurs just after the great tribulation described in Daniel 12:1, a verse earlier. This is a post-trib. resurrection.

       2) The gathering of the elect at the sound of the trumpet in Matthew 24:31 happens soon after the great tribulation (see Matt. 24:29, “immediately after the tribulation of those days...”). This is a post-trib. resurrection.

       3) The resurrection promised to the faithful in John 6:39, 40, 44, 54 occurs at the last day — presumably the last day of this age, not seven years earlier. This is post-trib.

       4) The resurrection of 1 Corinthians 15:23 involves all the Christians and happens “at the coming of Jesus.” Verses 51 and 52 describe this as a mystery which will occur in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet.

       5) The resurrection of Revelation 11:15-18 (“the time came for the dead to be judged”) happens at the seventh (i.e., last of a sequence of seven) trumpet and this is after the time of the Great Tribulation, as both camps agree. This, too, is a post-trib. resurrection.

       6) The resurrection of the dead found in Revelation 20:4 occurs after the arrival of Jesus to destroy the Beast and False Prophet (Rev. 19:20, 21). This, also, is a post-trib. resurrection, as all agree.

       7) The resurrection described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 occurs at the day of the Lord (1 Thess. 5:2) when sudden destruction comes upon the unsuspecting world (1 Thess. 5:3). This, too, must therefore be a post-trib. resurrection.

       8) The gathering of the church to the Lord at the coming of Jesus promised in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 will not occur until after the Man of Sin is revealed (“The day of the Lord will not come until the apostasy comes first and the man of sin is revealed,” v. 3). This, therefore, is a post-trib. resurrection.

       

Where then is the pre-trib. resurrection in which so many place their hope? There appears to be no such event. If the resurrection of the faithful does not occur after the tribulation in Matthew 24:31 (gathering of the elect) where in Matthew 24 does it occur? If the resurrection of the Christians does not occur at the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15, where in Revelation is it mentioned?

       Overlooking the primary evidence above, which establishes the place of the resurrection in the order of events, the pre-trib. argument may attempt a counter-position as follows:

 

       (a) Maintain in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, where the only gathering of the saints mentioned is POST-trib., that there is no mention of the resurrection and gathering of the church. This would mean that in the whole of Jesus’ discussion of the end-time and the Second Coming he omits entirely to say anything about when Christians will be resurrected and gathered! Though he speaks to disciples who are the foundation of the church, PRE-trib. maintains that nothing is said of the resurrection or gathering of the church.

       Note: The “elect” whom Jesus instructs are the faithful church as Matthew 22:14 shows (chosen = “elect,” same Greek word).

       (b) Maintain that the resurrection and gathering described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 [(7) above] happens before the Tribulation.

       Note: This can only be attempted by overlooking the context of the passage. Firstly, 4:13-17, taken without reference to the following context, does not say when this event occurs. But the following verses (5:1-4) do tell us that the event in question will take the world by surprise. This means that it is a post-trib. event, as are all the other descriptions of the resurrection.

       (c) Maintain that Revelation 4:1-2, where John was invited to “come up here,” describes the resurrection and gathering of millions of dead and living Christians. This goes far beyond the evidence. Not a word is said about a rapture or resurrection in this passage.

 

       Final note: 1 Corinthians 15:52 tells us that the resurrection of the faithful will occur at the last trumpet. Revelation 11:15-18 says that when the last (the seventh) trumpet sounds the “time for the dead to be judged and rewarded has come.” This trumpet sounds after the Tribulation, as all agree. Can it seriously be held that the last trumpet and the seventh trumpet are not the same event? If they are the same they provide absolute proof of the post-trib. resurrection for all the faithful. If 11:15 is not the resurrection of the church where in the whole of the book of Revelation is there a pre-tribulation resurrection? Where in the whole Bible is there evidence of a resurrection occurring before the tribulation?

     We should be careful not to place our hopes in an event which the Bible does not promise.


please note,my posiition is,I do not believe in a rapture period,Pre,Mid or Post However we will gather to Christ,this happens at the last trump Christ is coming here we are not going anywher

I've heard there are a few people who believe this. I would simply say these folks have not done sufficient Bible study to have an opinion at all on this subject. Share the following portion of Scripture with Mr. Buzzard and ask him to explain what it is:

1 Thessalonians 4:13 NASB  But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 NASB  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 NASB  For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 NASB  For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 NASB  Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:18 NASB  Therefore comfort one another with these words.

_______________________________

I won't argue this subject with you or Mr. Buzzard. I'll simply tell you that you and Mr. Buzzard would have significant study to do before you would be ready to discuss this topic, much less argue it. There are several very large threads on the board that contain more than sufficient information to walk you through a Bible Study on this topic and begin to understand it. Please feel free to share it with Mr. Buzzard. There are several reasonable positions about the timing of the Rapture, but there are no reasonable positions for "no Rapture at all". Regardless, I won't argue it with you, and you will find all the information you need already on the forum. Just do a search for "Rapture". By the way, "Rapture" is derived from the root of "Caught Up", and that should help you get started.

________________________

Welcome to the forum. It appears that you are anxious to find an argument. Maybe someone will be interested to oblige you, but I'm not interested at all.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Isaiah 55:10-11 NASB  "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, And do not return there without watering the earth And making it bear and sprout, And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater; So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.

Amen Brother Tom,

There are many scriptures that tell us there will indeed be a rapture. There is absolutely no doubt that it will happen. The only question and disagreement that a person might have is in when it will take place.

Mar 12:25  For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Mar 12:26  And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mar 12:27  He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.


1Co 15:12  Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13  But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:14  And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
1Co 15:15  Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Co 15:16  For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17  And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Brothers Tom, and Roger, All I can say is AMEN. 

Yes there will be a Rapture, as both brothers Tom, and Roger have pointed out with scripture.


So, when will the mark of the beast come?

The technology exists today, and people are getting chips implanted under their skin today. We have the social security number today, we have paper money today. But I believe the final and ultimate fulfillment of the prophecy of the mark of the beast will take place in the second half of the 7 year tribulation, and before that, Christians may escape that time of trouble in the rapture.

Revelation 14:9-12 Then another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a mighty voice, Whoever pays homage to the beast and his statue and permits the [beast's] stamp (mark, inscription) to be put on his forehead or on his hand,  10 He too shall [have to] drink of the wine of God's indignation and wrath, poured undiluted into the cup of His anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no respite (no pause, no intermission, no rest, no peace) day or night--these who pay homage to the beast and to his image and whoever receives the stamp of his name upon him.  12 Here [comes in a call for] the steadfastness of the saints [the patience, the endurance of the people of God], those who [habitually] keep God's commandments and [their] faith in Jesus.

Revelation 15:2 Then I saw what seemed to be a glassy sea blended with fire, and those who had come off victorious from the beast and from his statue and from the number corresponding to his name were standing beside the glassy sea, with harps of God in their hands.

Revelation 16:2 So the first [angel] went and emptied his bowl on the earth, and foul and painful ulcers (sores) came on the people who were marked with the stamp of the beast and who did homage to his image.

Quote

"I've heard there are a few people who believe this. I would simply say these folks have not done sufficient Bible study to have an opinion at all on this subject. Share the following portion of Scripture with Mr. Buzzard and ask him to explain what it is"

Reply

And I would say that the rapturist have not done a sufficient study either for the simple fact that the rapture is not biblical,with that said lets look at the scripture yous provided

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

The next five verses lay the foundation to what is called the "rapture theory". That is all it is, is a theory; and unproven idea. As we study our Father's Word; set aside all preconceived ideas you have about a rapture, and let's see what Paul is trying to tell the Thessalonians.


This concern is over "them which are asleep". The concern is over the loved ones that have died and left them, and their decaying bodies are out there in their grave. Paul is saying for us not to be sorry about those Christians who are dead and gone, for that is the concern of the heathen. The heathen's fear comes from their ignorance of God's word, and His promises. The heathen have no hope, for they believe it's over at the burial.


I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer

 Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep."

This, Paul states, is not his words, but it is from the Word God gave to him. Where? Ecclesiastes 12:7, that is where it is written.

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord," this is our gathering back to Jesus Christ. "Shall not prevent them", would be better translated, "We are not going to precede [go before] them." We can not precede them for a very simple reason; the dead are already there with God. It is the only logical fact that can come from this. If you do not, or will not believe this, then you believe in soul sleep as the heathen do, and the hope and glory Paul is speaking of, for the Christian, and you are ignorant of God's glory. Whether victorious, or sentenced to hell, all the dead are now with the Father, and not in the ground.


Paul says, "Behold I show you a mystery". In other words, Paul is going to reveal something so we will not be ignorant about it. "We shall not all sleep [die] but we shall all be changed." I Corinthians 15:51 Changed to what? The same thing the dead are, and that is the subject. All those still in the flesh body, at a certain moment [the sounding of the seventh trumpet] will shed this flesh body [corruptible and perishable body] and take on the new "incorruptible" body. Friend, That is the hope and salvation of the Christian.

To document this, in I Corinthians 15:50 we are told that "flesh and blood cannot inherit", or face Jesus Christ in His kingdom. Christ's kingdom will cover the entire earth, and that is why the flesh body must perish. The time of this change comes at the seventh trumpet, which is the last trump, and stated in verse 52, "for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed".

Those who are even dead spiritually will be raised in an incorruptible body. That is a body that doesn't get sick, or grow old; in other words, it is your spiritual body.

Why?

Because the Kingdom of God is where ever Christ is; and at the seventh trump Christ will be on earth with the saints, and setting up his 1000 year millennium kingdom. No flesh and blood body can exist in that kingdom. This is your "gathering back to Christ", and that is what the rapture meaning is all about. It is the time when Christ comes back to earth and the saints that are alive are changed and drawn to Him.


I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

The Lord is going to descend, at the seventh trump [the last trump]. Why will the dead in Christ rise first? Because they are already there, and with Him. All we have to do now is go to the book of Revelation, and find out in detail when this will be. We find out what events will occur just prior to this seventh trump sounding, and then when we see these certain events taking place before our eyes, we will know our Lord will return to earth next. Then the trump will sound, and the gathering will take place, and we will be changed from our flesh bodies to our spiritual bodies. And not one day before.


Now what about the clouds, and the air? The "clouds" are in reference to a large gathering of people, as Paul used else where also. While the "air" spoken of here, in the Greek is "breath of life"; we will meet Jesus Christ in our "breath of life bodies, or spiritual bodies". That is the mystery Paul spoke of in I Corinthians 15:50-54.

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Paul was a Hebrew scholar, not a Greek scholar. He studied under one of the greatest Hebrew teachers of His time. Paul spoke street Greek. The word "cloud", Paul used to express a fact of many people gathering into one body.

In Hebrews 12:1, they are gathering to run a foot race. When they run, the racers bunch up into a pack, This bunching of the runners, Paul calls a "cloud". "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"

Pastor Roger

Quote

"There are many scriptures that tell us there will indeed be a rapture. There is absolutely no doubt that it will happen. The only question and disagreement that a person might have is in when it will take place."

Reply

What you all call a rapture,I choose to call it our gathering back to Christ,which will not happen until the 7th trump,the fact that you all can't even figure out when(pre mid or post should sound alarms we will go thru the tribulation,thats a fact,and if you think not please show where in scripture christians are gone before the trib

I don't get into discussions on when the rapture will take place as all to often people get overly irate over this subject. The important thing that we are told is to watch and wait, to be ready for His coming at all times. Jesus told us that no man will know when this time will be and it is therefore a waste of our time to argue this point. Instead of arguing over this we should be preaching the gospel and making strong Christians that are ready and steadfast in Him, ready to face whatever we must.

As for the word Rapture. It is in fact in the Bible when we look at the meaning of the word and the origin of it:



As for your cloud statement ... yes Paul does use it in such a manner as you said in Hebrews. Jesus does not use it in such a manner.

Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 26:64  Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mar 13:26  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mar 14:62  And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

It is also used correctly as a cloud in the sky:

Mat 17:5  While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Luk 12:54  And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is.

Act 1:9  And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

It is quite evident that you have not thoroughly studied the scriptures. I believe that Brother Tom is right. I will not argue these points with you either. I will suggest though that you go back to the Bible without your preconceived ideas and do some further study, praying that God open your eyes to His message before you do.

I'll begin this post with a few verses which have Jesus speaking about where He will take us for the Tribulation period.......

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.


John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

John 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

There are many more verses, but now, let's get into the PRE-TRIB evidence...

The primary Scripture passage on the Rapture is 1Thessalonians 4:13-18. It states that all living believers, along with all believers who have died, will meet the Lord Jesus in the air and will be with Him forever. The Rapture is God removing His people from the earth. A few verses later in 5:9 Paul says, “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” The Book of Revelation, which deals primarily with the time period of the Tribulation, is a prophetic message of how God will pour out His wrath upon the earth during the Tribulation. It would seem inconsistent for God to promise believers that they will not suffer wrath and then leave them on the earth during the Tribulation. The fact that God promises to deliver Christians from wrath shortly after promising to remove His people from the earth seems to link those two events together.

If the Bible is interpreted literally and consistently, the Pretribulational position is the most Biblically consistent interpretation. Take a good look at the differences between the verses in scripture which describe the 2nd Coming, and the scriptures which describe the Rapture.

Once we see the two in relation to each other, we can be assured of the Rapture as being sound Biblical doctrine.

1) Rapture

Jesus coming for His Church/Bride up to Heaven, before tribulation.  Luke 21:36; John 14:1-3;     1 Thess 1:10, 4:14-17, 5:9;     Rev 3:10

1) The Return with the Saints

Jesus coming with His Church/Bride down from Heaven, after tribulation. Zech 14:5; Col 3:4; Rev 19:7-8,14, 21:9-10; Matt 24:29-31; Jud 1:14,15; 1Thess 3:13

2) Rapture

Caught up with Him in the air, in the clouds,  1Thess 4:13-18;

Appears to Believers only. Mat 5:8, John 11:40, Heb 9:28

2) The Return with the Saints

Jesus' feet touch the earth Zech 14:4; Rev 19:11-21, and he brings war, then peace.

Every eye will see him, including unbelievers. Rev 1:7, Zech 12:10, Mat 24:30 Luke 3:6 John 19:37

3) Rapture

Christians taken first, unbelievers are left behind a shut door. Mat 25:1-13; Rev 3:8-10; Rev 4:1, 1Thess 4:13-18

3) The Return with the Saints

Wicked are taken first, Mat 13:28-30 the righteous (Tribulation saints) are left to populate the millennium

4) Rapture

Purpose: To present the Church to Himself and to the Father in Heaven, 2 Cor 11:2; Rev 19:6-9

4) The Return with the Saints

Purpose: To execute judgment on earth and set up His Kingdom on earth.  Zech 14:3-4; Jud 1:14-15; Rev 19:11-21

5) Rapture

Purpose: to cast satan out of heaven (Rev 12) down to the earth, which will reveal Satan for the Tribulation as the man of sin 2Thess 2

5) The Return with the Saints

Purpose:  to cast Satan to the bottomless pit, to bind Satan after the Tribulation. Rev 20:1-7

6) Rapture

Happens in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, no war, globally.  1Cor 15:52

6) The Return with the Saints

Slow coming, at war, to specific locations, from Edom, to Bozrah, to Meggido or Armageddon, to Jerusalem. Isa 63:1-3, Rev 16:16, Zech 12:9-10

7) Rapture

Christians are changed, and get spirit bodies, go to heaven and do not marry, and become immortal; Mat 22:30; 1Cor 15:52; 1John 3:2

7) The Return with the Saints

People populate the earth during the millennium; some people still die, not being changed to immortality as at the rapture. Isa 65:20

8) Rapture

Jesus descends with a shout (for resurrection) and trumpet noise. 1Thess 4:16

8) The Return with the Saints

No shout mentioned Rev 19:11-21

9) Rapture

A resurrection takes place of all saints to immortality, to rule as kings and priests in Heaven over Earth 1Cor 15:51-54; 1Thess 4:13-18

9) The Return with the Saints

Resurrection of the tribulation saints to immortality who worship day and night in the temple of God. Rev 7:15, Rev 20:4-6,

10) Rapture

Occurs as a thief in the night, at the 'no man knows the day or hour' festival of the Feast of Trumpets. Mat 24:43; 1Thess 5:4-6; Rev 3:3

10) The Return with the Saints

Occurs at end of 7 years of Tribulation; exact day predicted; 3.5 years or 1260 days after the abomination of desolation: Dan 9:24-27, 12:11-12; Rev 11:2, 12:6,14, 13:5

11) Rapture

Is likened to the abduction of the bride during the Jewish Wedding, and the union of the bride and groom, which occurs at the start of the 7-day bridal week. Gen 29:22-28, Judges 14:1-18

11) The Return with the Saints

Is likened to the marriage feast, which occurs after the 7-day bridal week, returning from the wedding.  Luke 12:36; Rev 19

12) Rapture

The dead in Christ rise and together with then living will be changed into their new bodies and leave Earth with Jesus. 1Thess 4:14-16

12) The Return with the Saints

Christians return with Jesus in already resurrected bodies riding on white horses. Rev 19:11-21

13) Rapture

Jesus returns as a saviour from wrath Luke 21:36; Rom 5:9; 1Thess 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10

13) The Return with the Saints

Jesus returns on a white horse, full of wrath. Rev 19:11

14) Rapture

For the Church only (those in Christ) 1Thess 4:14-17

14) The Return with the Saints

For redeemed Israel & Gentiles Mat 25:31-46; Rom 11:25-27

15) Rapture

A message of hope and comfort 1Thess 4:18; Titus 2:13; 1John 3:3 Just like the days of Noah and Lot, which show deliverance and salvation from judgement.  2 Peter 2:7-9, Mat 24:37-44

15) The Return with the Saints

A message of judgment and woe Joel 3:12-16; Amos 5:18; Mal 4:5; Rev 19:11-21 Like the plagues of Egypt, many of which are mirrored in Revelation, pouring out his Wrath, and He comes after the judgements.

Pastor Roger

Quote

"It is quite evident that you have not thoroughly studied the scriptures. I believe that Brother Tom is right. I will not argue these points with you either. I will suggest though that you go back to the Bible without your preconceived ideas and do some further study, praying that God open your eyes to His message before you do."

Reply

Oh but I have studied the scriptures,thats why I don't believe in a rapture.Contrary to what you all think Im not here to argue either all I did was state what I believe to be scriptual,.

No one will stand before God with me and Im more than ready to make that stand before Him based on what I believe


Dreamweaver

Lets look at John

John 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in Me."

John 14:2 "In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

Let's take the word "mansions" as written in the Greek text. "Mansions" is "mone", # 3438 in the Strong's Greek dictionary, and pronounced, "mon-ay' ". It means a place to rest and abide where there is no trouble. Friend, this resting place is in Christ and the Father, that is the resting.

John 14:4 "And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."

Why? Because for the last three years Jesus told them over and over about His journey to the cross, His death and His resurrection. This is the way to the place where the preparation is made for theirs and our return to Him. That way leads down the path to the cross, and at His death it leads into the tomb where on the third day, Jesus rose from the dead and ascended to be with the father fifty days later.

Our resting place is in His Word, and under the shed blood of Jesus.

Quote

"If the Bible is interpreted literally and consistently, the Pretribulational position is the most Biblically consistent interpretation. Take a good look at the differences between the verses in scripture which describe the 2nd Coming, and the scriptures which describe the Rapture"

Reply

Herein lies the problem as to how I see scripture,people seem to think that the Day of the Lord and our gathering back to Christ(rapture)are different I hold the view that they are one and the same.

Quote

"The primary Scripture passage on the Rapture is 1Thessalonians 4:13-18. It states that all living believers, along with all believers who have died, will meet the Lord Jesus in the air and will be with Him forever. The Rapture is God removing His people from the earth. A few verses later in 5:9 Paul says, “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” The Book of Revelation, which deals primarily with the time period of the Tribulation, is a prophetic message of how God will pour out His wrath upon the earth during the Tribulation. It would seem inconsistent for God to promise believers that they will not suffer wrath and then leave them on the earth during the Tribulation. The fact that God promises to deliver Christians from wrath shortly after promising to remove His people from the earth seems to link those two events together."

Reply

Question,where are the dead now?Once we die we instantly return to the Father,to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord

Why do you think God has to remove His people in order to protect them,when the plaques fell on Egypt did God remove His people?No!He did not


I have read the scriptures you provided concerning the return with the saints and the rapture and I will go over them in my next post


First I would like to take a look at Matt 24

Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

This is the subject of this chapter,when will you return.To me if there was to be a rapture this chapter would had been the perfect place to teach it,yet nowhere in this chapter was it taught

Matthew 24:4 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you."

This is the number one warning, "Take heed that no man deceive you." Deception will be the foremost thing to guard against in the latter days, that will consummate the end of this age. This means that these events will not happen all at one time, but will take place over a period of time. These warnings or signs that Jesus is about to give us, are the seven seals that are given us in the Book of Revelation.

These are an exact overlay of the seven events, which are the seven seals that we should be watching for today

Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

Christ said for us to endure till the end,not raptured

Matthew 24:15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"

The "abomination" is when Satan stands in Jerusalem, and proclaims that he is God, and the world believes it. The "desolation" is an incorrect translation into the English, which should read "desolator", and Satan is the desolator that will make the claim that he is God, the true Christ. "Desolation" is a condition, in the Hebrew manuscripts it is written, "On the wings of the desolator," this is not a condition, but a entity, a person. It is through this individual, Satan that the abomination shall come from. It is the desolator [Satan] that shall cause all but the sealed of God, to become desolate, or deceived.

Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Up until this point in Matt I have not seen a rapture,yet in verse 21 we are told that there shall be tribulation

Matthew 24:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

"Those days" are the days of this tribulation. If God did not shorten the time and reign of the Antichrist, no man in the flesh body would be spiritually saved, and not deceived by Satan the Antichrist. Daniel told us in Daniel 9:27 that this time of the Antichrist, the desolator, was one half of one week of years. That is one half of seven years, and it has been shortened to five [5] months.

Again I ask where is the rapture,if there was a rapture why would the days need to be shortened?

Ephesians 6 tells us the purpose that God's elect will be on earth, and it will be to fight against Satan, and those wicked spiritual powers. That is why you need the spiritual armor on and in place, for the warfare will be a spiritual battle, fought will words and ideas, it will be fought with the very word of God, for Satan will twist that Word, to make it a lie, when he and his forces use it against you.

Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightning cometh our to the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

This is saying that immediately after that tribulation of Satan, which is the Antichrist deception, Christ will be coming back to earth, and marks the second advent. There are two tribulations, and you had better know the difference.

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."


If Christ just told us that He was not returning until after the trib how can there be a rapture before?

Matthew 24:37-41 (Jesus speaking) But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days that were before the flood, THEY (the wicked) were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark. And THEY (the wicked) knew not until the flood came and took THEM (the wicked) ALL AWAY; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.

THEY and THEM are clearly the WICKED (ungodly unbelievers).

Verse 40 - Then shall two be in the field, the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN, and the other left.

Two shall be grinding at the mill; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN and the other left.

Luke 17:26, 27 and 34-36 (Jesus speaking) As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the day of the Son of Man. THEY (the WICKED) did eat, THEY (the WICKED) did drink, THEY (the WICKED) married wives, THEY (the WICKED) were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came and destroyed THEM (the WICKED) all.

...I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed,; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN (destroyed) and the other left.

Two women shall be grinding together; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN (destroyed) and the other left.

Two men shall be in the field; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN (destroyed) and the other left.

RAPTURE believers think THEY will be the ONE TAKEN. If you think YOU will be TAKEN, lets see what Jesus says will happen to you.

Luke 17:37, Jesus answers the disciples question of what happens to the TAKEN ONES. Jesus said, WHERE THERE IS A DEAD BODY, THERE THE VULTURES WILL GATHER.

2 Peter 2:5 (Peter speaking) (God) saved (kept safe) Noah...bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly (WICKED).

Matthew 13:24-30 The parable of the wheat and the tares. Gather together FIRST THE TARES. Jesus continues, The Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and they will gather OUT of His Kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity....

Luke 17:29,30 (Jesus speaking) ...(in) Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from Heaven and destroyed THEM ALL. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. THE WICKED were destroyed, once again.

Matthew 13:47-50 (Jesus speaking) Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a net that was cast into the sea and gathered of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but THREW THE BAD AWAY. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and SEVER THE WICKED from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire...

Once again the GOOD remain and the BAD are thrown away. THE WICKED TAKEN and destroyed "from among the just," who remain on the earth.

I Thessalonians 5:3 (Paul speaking) For when THEY (THE WICKED) shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction shall come upon THEM...and they shall not escape.

Matthew 24:21,22 and Mark 13:19,20 (Jesus speaking) For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved (survive); but for THE ELECT's sake whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days.

How can there be THE ELECT during this time IF they went in THE RAPTURE?

ELECT is also mentioned in Luke 18:7; Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; Titus 1:1

Proverbs 2:21, 22 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall REMAIN in it, but THE WICKED shall be cut off (taken/destroyed) from the earth and the transgressors shall be rooted OUT of it.

Psalm 145:20 The Lord preserveth ALL that love him; but ALL THE WICKED He will destroy.

Proverbs 10:30 The righteous shall NEVER be REMOVED;

Proverbs 11:31 The righteous shall be recompensed IN the (world) earth...

Psalm 101:8 I (God) will early (first) destroy THE WICKED of the land...

Psalm 119:119 All THE WICKED of the earth you discard (throw away) like dross.

Proverbs 25:4,5 Take AWAY the dross from the silver...Take AWAY THE WICKED from before the King...

Isaiah 5:24 and 29:5 The flame consumeth the chaff (WICKED).

Job 21:18 THEY (THE WICKED) are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth AWAY.

Job 38:13 (Speaking to God) ...take hold of the ends of the earth that THE WICKED might be shaken OUT of it.

Malachi 4:1 For behold the day cometh...and all that do WICKEDLY, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up...

Psalm 37:29 The righteous shall inherit the land (earth) and dwell therein FOREVER.

Psalm 37:9-11 For evildoers (WICKED) shall be cut off (destroyed); but those that wait upon the Lord shall inherit the earth.

Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger...and He shall destroy the sinners thereof OUT of it (the earth).

Psalm 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed OUT OF THE EARTH (world), and let the wicked be no more.

Psalm 52:5 God shall likewise destroy THEE (THE WICKED) forever; He shall take THEE AWAY, and pluck THEE OUT of thy dwelling place.

The above are just some of the Scriptures that make it CLEAR that the righteous STAY, and THE WICKED GO.

Ezekiel 9:4-6 and Revelation 9:3,4 talk about THE WICKED being destroyed in the midst of the RIGHTEOUS


Just a few questions


Was Job raptured out of his time of tribulation (testing)? NO

Was Joseph raptured out of the pit or prison? NO

Was Daniel raptured out of the lion's den? NO

Was King David raptured out of all his tribulation? NO

Exodus 7:18 through 12:30 records the Israelites were IN Egypt for all ten plagues of God's wrath.

Was Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego raptured out of the firery furnace? NO

Was Jesus or any of the Apostles raptured out of their persecution? NO

Was Paul raptured out of all his tribulations (2 Corithians 11:23-27)? NO

NO RAPTURE, JUST MUCH TRIBULATION

truthbtold,

Sadly, you are either the victim of a false teacher, or you have attempted to teach yourself and grossly misunderstand many things. OR, it could be both. Regardless, what you are proposing does not resemble the Holy Bible and is NOT taught in the Holy Bible.

As I have already told you, there are several detailed threads already on the forum that you can study and learn the truth. Nobody here is going to argue with you because arguing with you might make you even more confused. You really need to start over, disregard the false material you have, and change churches if you have a pastor teaching you this false material. I would also be very concerned about any other completely false things you are being taught. My biggest worry is that you are in a cult and aren't even saved. SO, I'll just ask you the most important questions there are:

1 - Is ALMIGHTY GOD a HOLY TRINITY - GOD THE FATHER, GOD THE SON, AND GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT - ALL BEING EQUAL AND ONE - THE ETERNAL CREATOR?

2 - Is JESUS CHRIST the SON OF GOD - VERY GOD - ALMIGHTY GOD - THE ETERNAL CREATOR?

(My Note:  If your answer to either of the above questions is "NO", you are lost and in a cult. If so, your first and most critical need is to learn about JESUS CHRIST, GOD'S Plan of Salvation, and accept JESUS CHRIST as your LORD and SAVIOUR. Studying anything else would be a complete waste of time, especially the more difficult portions of the Holy Bible. Many portions of the Holy Bible are spiritually discerned with the help of the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD who lives in the hearts of true believers. THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD doesn't live in the hearts of the lost, and that's a HUGE reason why lost people have no chance to understand the Holy Bible.)

While I'm thinking about it, is there some reason why you have obtained another account under the name of "n2thelight"? A second account would be permitted for ANOTHER member of your household, but only one account is allowed per person.

Let's take care of the most important things first - YOUR SALVATION. Many cults and false religions teach that JESUS CHRIST was just a messenger, or just a teacher, or just a preacher, or a created being, or a created angel, or just anyone other than THE SON OF GOD - EQUAL AND ONE WITH THE FATHER AND THE HOLY SPIRIT - ALMIGHTY GOD HIMSELF - THE ETERNAL CREATOR. SO, who do you think JESUS CHRIST is?

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 11:25 NASB  Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

Hello black

Thanks for your concern,and I do appreciate it

I have absolutly no doubt in my mind whatsoever that I am indeed saved.

I study with Pastor Arnold Maury of the Shepherds Chapel,Nick Goggins at biblestudysite.com and Roger Christopherson at the season.org

To answer your questions yes Jesus is the son of God

Here is how I see the trinity

1st 'facet' or 'part' of the Trinity

God (Yehovah 'Elohim = The Lord God), is the Father, the One and Only God Eternal!  He whom created everything, He whom has no beginning and has no end.

Exod 3:13-15
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. (KJV)

2nd facet of the Trinity

Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the Son (Yehoshua = Yehovah the Savior, or, God Savior), He is God manifested (came) in the flesh, He is God in human form come to earth to save His creation from satan and their sins.  Jesus is not another God, He is God.

John 10:27-30 (Jesus speaking)
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)

3rd facet of the Trinity

Holy Spirit (tó pneúma tó hágion = The Spirit The Holy = The Holy Spirit) is the Holy Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit is the Power of God in action. It is through the Holy Spirit of God that God interacts with His creation today, for He no longer walks with man face to face as He did with Adam, Noah, Abraham....., and He no longer is physically amongst us as He was when Jesus Christ walked the earth.  This is because we (as a peoples) fell short, we forsook Him, we left Him — He didn't leave us!  Below we see that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, God's Spirit; not a separate 'person' or individual apart from God:


Quote

" Many portions of the Holy Bible are spiritually discerned with the help of the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD who lives in the hearts of true believers. THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD doesn't live in the hearts of the lost, and that's a HUGE reason why lost people have no chance to understand the Holy Bible.)"

Reply

Are you implying that Im lost? If so I assure you that I am not,but many of us who claim we are,I'll let Christ finish the rest,

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Now about my account I started with n2thelight first,but for some reason I could not get on,it kept sending me back to activate account after many times I decided to try a new one sent to my other account,so if you can will you please delete n2thelight


I know that Christ died for me and that the only way to the Father is through Him.

Again I thank you for your concern however as I have stated I am more than ready,can't wait to tell you the truth to stand before my Father

Now as far as that cult thing goes I feel that a cult is when you are not able to think for yourself,those three that I study with do nothing but incourage you to do just that and to not take their word for anything but to check it out in the Holy Bible which I do.

I grew up in the church and believed in the rapture among other things for most of my life,it wasnt until I did start to study for myself that I found out that what I had been taught just didnt add up.

Again I to do not wish to argue I just like to plant seeds and if one dosent have eyes to see I have no problem with it

Hello truthbtold,

I'm happy to know that you are saved. Cults are most generally known for denying one or more deities of the God-Head, JESUS CHRIST being the most common one to deny. That's why I asked you about JESUS CHRIST. Denial of the Rapture many times goes with this because JESUS CHRIST is the one who catches the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST up to meet HIM in the air.

Denial of the Rapture is a very serious error, but not one of Salvation, so we can just agree to disagree.

Love In Christ,
Tom

2 Timothy 4:7-8 NASB  I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

~Daily Inspirational ~ THE CHURCH AND THE TRIBULATION OCT.2, 2006


THE CHURCH AND THE TRIBULATION
By Pastor Bob Hanna

A prominently held view among Christian believers states that the church, the Body of Christ, will be included in the tribulation - the time of Jacob's trouble. Our apostle says otherwise. Writing to members of the body, he declares, "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [the day of the Lord] shall not come except there come a falling away [literally, a departure] first, and that man of Sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (ll Thessalonians 2:3,4).

Verse seven states, "He who now letteth [hindereth] will let [hinder] until he be taken out of the way." That which hinders is the church, the Body of Christ. The rapture will take us out of the way. "And then shall that Wicked [one] be revealed." This is the great deceiver whose being revealed begins the tribulation period. Hence the rapture precedes the tribulation, which means that the church will not go through the tribulation. Verses nine through twelve graphically describe the activities of the man of sin during the first half of the tribulation. By this time we, members of Christ's body, will be in heaven with our Lord and Savior "Wherefore comfort one another with these words" (I Thessalonians 4: 18 ).

Some of those who put the church in the tribulation say that we are present in the first 3.5 years. Others say that we will not be raptured until after the full seven years. Either way, there is no substantiation to be found in Scripture. One verification of the fact of the rapture preceding the tribulation: our apostle nowhere instructs or advises us re how we would cope with the conditions or how to survive accordingly.

Our apostle repeatedly assures us in this regard. "God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him"- (Romans 5:8,9). "For God hath not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (I Thessalonians 5 :9).

Hello all,

Firstly, I'm a believer on The Saviour Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins by His Blood shed upon His cross.

Paul used the word "gathering" (Greek episunagoge) in 2 Thess.2:1 for the gathering of the saints to Christ at His coming, so that is a valid usage per Scripture also. The idea of gathering to Christ is also used in Genesis 49:10, Matthew 24:31, Matthew 25:32, Ephesians 1:10, and Mark 13:27.

The word Paul used for "caught up" in 1 Thess.4:17 and 2 Cor.12 is indeed Greek 'harpazo', and it means to be siezed or snatched away. The word 'rapture' did come from the Latin translation of the nearest equivalent for 'harpazo'. (Notice I said nearest equivalent.)

What we are to be watching for is the "times and the seasons" our Lord Jesus and His prophets and Apostles gave us per Scritpure, as to Christ's coming. So it doesn't matter how many outside Biblical sources or opinions we refer to on this matter. What matters, is what the written Word says.

We are to be watching for Christ's coming, even though we cannot know the day or hour it will take place. Paul continued his discussion about the rapture or gathering to Christ in the next Thessalonians chapter.

The following Scripture sets the order of Christ's coming with the clouds.

1Thes 5:1-4
1   But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2   For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3   For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4   But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
(KJV)

"The day of the Lord" happens with Christ's coming in the clouds "as a thief in the night". Per Paul, His coming is not to take us by surprise, "as a thief in the night". That event will only overtake those who are in "darkness". Paul says the Thessalonians are not in "darkness", that that day of the Lord should overtake them "as a thief in the night". Paul is saying he has no need to teach them about "the times and the seasons" of Christ's coming, for they already knew them.

2 Pet 3:10
10   But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(KJV)

In that verse, Peter is putting 3 major events together at the same timing they occur. The "day of the Lord", Christ's coming "as a thief in the night", and "the elements shall melt with fervent heat" all occur together.

That elements melting with fervant heat at Christ's coming with the clouds is something to ponder. The latter part of Hebrews 12 also mentions that event, telling us how God will yet once more shake not the earth only, but heaven also. Hebrews 12 continues to tell us the reason for that great shaking will be to remove the things off of this earth that are made (man's works), so that only the things of God may remain. That's what the elements melting with fervant heat is about. It's about the removing of man's works off this earth.

Can the "great tribulation" happen on earth after that great melting event? Can the Antichrist and his evil works on earth during the tribulation make it through that kind of event? Not even. Since Peter placed that event of the elements melting with Christ coming "as a thief in the night", and "the day of the Lord", what does that show us about the order of our gathering to Christ?

May God bless.

Hello Gossa,

WELCOME!


I sincerely hope that you enjoy Christians Unite.

I don't argue the Rapture any longer. There are many massive threads already on the forum that cover every conceivable argument.

I will give you a hint about your post and many others that deal with timing and events.

1 - At the Rapture, CHRIST does NOT come all the way down to the earth. The BODY OF CHRIST (His Church) is caught up to meet HIM in the air.

2 - At the Second Coming of CHRIST, CHRIST definitely comes all the way down to earth, and there are a sequence of events IMMEDIATELY followed by the 1,000 year Rule and Reign of JESUS CHRIST in Jerusalem from the Throne of David.

3 - So, there is a time gap you have to account for in Scripture. There's a lot of disagreement on timing and sequence, but many of them are really common sense. There won't be a New Heaven and a New Earth until after the 1,000 Year Rule and Reign of CHRIST. This should give you a hint that there is definitely a 1,000 year gap in portions of Scripture.

4 - If you couple Daniel's Prophecy into the mix, you will have a much better picture. First, Daniel knew nothing about the CHURCH which is the BODY OF CHRIST, and the Seven Year Tribulation Period was Determined against Israel, NOT THE CHURCH. The 70th Week of Daniel is the 7 year tribulation period. In terms of GOD'S plan, there was no definite period of time given for the 69th week, and that's the week we are living in now. The 69th Week is the Age of Grace, or Church Age as called by some. You should notice many portions of Scripture that clearly state that the Church which is the BODY of CHRIST was not formed for WRATH, rather for RESCUE AND SALVATION. The Work and Promises yet to be fulfilled in the Tribulation Period pertains to Israel, not the CHURCH. If you look closely at the Second Coming of Christ, there are heavenly hosts of armies following JESUS CHRIST, and guess who they are.

I typed this pretty quickly and I'm very tired, so I probably should not have tried so much tonight. Regardless, there are massive threads already on the forum with more details than anyone can study in years. But, I hopefully gave you some good starting points and things to think of. Some of the biggest ones concern Israel and they always have. One last hint: the 70th week is defined by Daniel as a week of years which is 7 years. There is no definition for the 69th week that we are living in now except a time "when the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" as the end of the age. If you guessed that the Church which is the BODY OF CHRIST is being talked about, you would be right.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Hebrews 4:16 NASB  Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

I also disagree with you, Christserf.  The Great Tribulation is the wrath of God descending upon the earth. According to 1 Thess. 5:9, "God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ . . . Wherefore comfort [literally: encourage] yourselves together, and edify [literally: help] one another. even as also ye do."  Believers certainly are not comforted by believing they must pass through the Great Tribulation.

Since the Great Tribulation is the wrath of God descended upon unbelieving humanity [read Rev. 6:15-17 to verify this] and believers have put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ that they may escape the wrath of God, it is a misinterpretation of Scriptures to say that believers shall endure the Great Tribulation.

One more point: there appears to be a biblical principle that, before God's judgments commences, God first makes provision for the deliverance of his people. Now this is not to say that natural disasters do not also afflict believers; they do. According to the Bible, His rain falls upon the just and the unjust.  But God does make provisions for his people to escape the times when His judgments descend on mankind for their sins.  The angel of judgment informed  Lot that he and his family had to be safely out of Sodom before judgment fell on the city: Genesis 19:22, "Haste thee, escape there [to the city of Zoar]; for I cannot do anything until  thou be come there."

Noah and his family had to be safely in the Ark, with the door closed by God, Himself before the flood began. [Read the account in the Genesis, chapter seven.

Josprel


 

   

Amen Josprel!

I was just thinking how wonderful it is for Christians to know that all of our hope and tomorrows rest in JESUS CHRIST. Not one of us deserves HIS MOST PRECIOUS AND PERFECT GIFT OF HIMSELF! Just being rescued from the curse of sin and death is cause for great joy, praise, and worship. BUT, this is really just the beginning of our New Life in JESUS CHRIST. There is a lengthy list of Promises given by GOD to us, and just thinking about a few of them every day should give us great joy.

Love In Christ,
Tom

If we look at Rev3:5 can you say as a brother in Christ , that v 5 is talking about the Body of Christ ? It is talking about overcomers , won't blot out our name from the book of life. I am now in the Body of Christ and not waiting to be and overcomer. Second all of the book of Rev has to do with Jacob trouble,and the being tested , and only those who are loyal to their Messiah , will enter into the Mellennium per Matt 24 :13, will have to endure to the end of the Tribulation, v14 and they are preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom. Rev 6: 9 is this the Body of Christ, v12 , does this remind you of Acts 2: 20 and the prophecy of Joel,  Rev 7: 4 144,000 Jews,  Rev 11: 8 is speaking of Jeruselem, and the whole book is Jewish. So I won't even give the first 3 CHAPTERS and that the church is seen there , because it is not.  There is one other  book that also speaks of the departure of the Body of Christ, and that is found in Gal 1:4 where the apostle Paul says we will be ( DELIVERED, RESCUED, OR PLUCK OUT ) depending on which word you want to use , means we will plucked out of this evil age.

For those of you who don't know, I was a mid-rapture believer. One verse has changed my mind though, more then any other..............

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

This alone tells us, Christ will protect us from the coming tribulation.

The m,id-tribulationism theory must either deny or at least weaken the dispensational interpretation of the Scriptures, and, deny the strict distinctions between Israel and the church. This is observed in that this position places the church in the first half of the last seven years of the period determined upon Daniel's people and city. The position must rest on a view of the tribulation that divides the period into two separate and unrelated halves, so that the church can go through the first half, even though it has no part in the last half.

The position must deny the doctrine of imminence, for all the signs of the first half of the week apply to the church. The position must deny the concept of the church as a mystery, so that the church age may overlap God's program with Israel. The position must depend, to a certain extent, on the spiritualizing method of interpretation. This is particularly evident in the explanation of the portions of Scripture dealing with the first half of the tribulation period.

One of the principal arguments of the mid-tribulationists is that the rapture will take place at the "last trump," which they identify with the seventh trumpet in Revelation. The mid-tribulationist views the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15 and the last trump of 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 as the same.

If the identification rests on the bare fact that in both passages we have last trumpets, then there is a problem. And I points out that if the seventh trumpet comes at the middle of the seventieth week, there is still another trumpet. It is the trumpet with which the angels call God's elect from the four winds after Christ's return (Matthew 24:31). On the other hand, if the identification is based on the fact that both trumpets are the last trumpet for the church, then I think the argument is dubious. There is no question that 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 deal with the church. The problem relates to the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15. Here you have the final trumpet in a series of judgments. On what ground should this trumpet be taken as identical with the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52?

The seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15 actually includes the seven vials (Revelations 16:1-21), and covers the rest of the seventieth week period. Included in the seventh trumpet, verses 15-19, is a "panorama of the rest of the book, future events being seen as already present."

Other arguments of mid-tribulationists include:

1. "the denial of imminence"
2. "the denial of the church as a mystery"
3. "the nature of the seals and trumpets" (the mid-trib view believes they "are not manifestations of divine wrath")
4. "the duration of the tribulation period" (the mid-trib view divides the week into two unrelated parts); and
5."the chronology of the book of Revelation" the mid-trib view sees Revelation 11:15-18 as the Rapture, and not the Revelation.

Brothers and Sisters,

I just want to mention a few things to consider that are covered in much greater detail in numerous other threads on this same subject:

1 - The entire Tribulation Period, all 7 years, is a time of WRATH determined against Israel - not the CHURCH. This is regardless of the fact that the last half of the Tribulation Period is MUCH WORSE.

2 - The CHURCH was not formed for WRATH, rather for RESCUE, and the CHURCH has already accepted CHRIST as GOD and KING.

3 - There is no CONDEMNATION for those WHO ARE IN CHRIST, just JUDGMENT for the purposes of REWARDS that are over and above SALVATION. The ONLY PUNISHMENT that members of the CHURCH will face is LOSS OF REWARDS, and this will be determined at a UNIQUE JUDGMENT SEAT (BEMA SEAT) that ONLY THE CHURCH ATTENDS.

4 - UNIQUE CONSIDERATION: who will be the BRIDE OF THE LAMB? Also look at Ancient Jewish Marriage Customs that do APPLY in terms of Preparation of the BRIDE.

5 - UNIQUE CONSIDERATION: who are the heavenly hosts in the armies that will follow CHRIST into battle at HIS SECOND COMING?

6 - UNIQUE CONSIDERATION: think about the removal of the GREAT RESTRAINER and think about the absolute fact that the GREAT RESTRAINER is the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD and LIVES in the HEARTS OF THE INDIVIDUAL MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH.

7 - UNIQUE CONSIDERATION: The individual members of the CHURCH have the SEAL WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT on their hearts. This HOLY SEAL can't be broken by any POWER - including the BEAST.

8 - Consider the specific and overall purposes of the Tribulation Period. Does the CHURCH have anything at all to do with these purposes?  NO.

9 - Some say that the CHURCH will suffer simply to witness to the lost. NO, the CHURCH has already suffered and died over centuries for this purpose. This PURPOSE will be fulfilled by other means, including 12,000 from each TRIBE OF ISRAEL - the 144,000.

10. The overall and specific purposes of the Tribulation Period is Israel, the rejecting Nations, a series of JUDGMENTS against EVIL, PURIFICATION of Israel, and finally SALVATION AND RESTORATION of Israel.

There are highly detailed debates of this issue already on the forum, so I didn't offer this information for debate - just thought. Christians have been persecuted and martyred throughout history, and it's clear that the Tribulation Period was determined against REJECTING ISRAEL - NOT THE CHURCH. The individual members of THE CHURCH are already IN THE BODY OF CHRIST. The BODY OF CHRIST has already been delivered from the WRATH to come. Each MEMBER already belongs to CHRIST, and no power can PLUCK them out of HIS HANDS. The BODY OF CHRIST has already been rescued from the CURSE OF SIN AND DEATH, and the SECOND DEATH has no power OVER THE BODY OF CHRIST. The MEMBERS OF THE BODY OF CHRIST already have ETERNAL LIFE in and through CHRIST HIMSELF as a PROMISE OF GOD.

Finally, remember that the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST WILL NOT BE JUDGED AT THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT! The BODY OF CHRIST has already been JUDGED as FREE FROM CONDEMNATION. The JUDGMENT that the individual members of the BODY OF CHRIST faces is FOR REWARDS OR LOSS OF REWARDS - NOT FOR CONDEMNATION! This is the reason why individual MEMBERS OF THE BODY OF CHRIST are "absent from the body and present with the LORD" when they physically die. The JUDGMENT BY GOD has already been made that THE BODY OF CHRIST ALREADY BELONGS TO HIM! In fact, CHRIST'S CHURCH is already ONE WITH HIM FOR ETERNITY AND IS THE BRIDE OF CHRIST!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 1:18-23 NASB I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

  Well.  You guys seem to be doing a pretty good job here of not sinking to name calling and such like.  I have a question about this; aren't we saved from wrath?
finney

  I better qualify that post:  Romans 5:9, 1Thessalonians 1:10, 1Thessalonians 5:9.  That's three witnesses. There's more.  Now let's look here:  There are thirteen verses in the book of The Revelation of Jesus Christ that mention wrath; one mentions the wrath of the devil, the other twelve pertain to the wrath of God, from which we are saved.  Just a thought.
finney

Hello Finney,

I see that these are your first posts, so WELCOME!


We're happy to have you with us and hope that you enjoy Christians Unite.

People getting angry is one of the main reasons why I stopped debating issues. However, I still enjoy peaceful discussions with other Brothers and Sisters in Christ. This thread is pretty nice, but we have had discussions in the past on this same issue that got pretty heated.

YES - I think that the WRATH of GOD is one of the keys to the sequence of events involving the RAPTURE of the CHURCH. There are many surrounding issues that are really quite beautiful - Salvation being the most beautiful. However, the RAPTURE of the CHURCH is a matter of great contention for some Christians. I do believe that the RAPTURE of the CHURCH is prior to the Tribulation Period, and I further believe that it could take place at any moment. I can easily have good fellowship with Christians who believe otherwise. The ones I have a problem with suggest that a Pre-Tribulation RAPTURE is a False and EVIL teaching. There isn't anything EVIL about this view, just as there is nothing EVIL about those believing in a Mid-Tribulation or Post-Tribulation RAPTURE. A specific view about the timing and sequence of the RAPTURE is not a requirement for Salvation, so Brothers and Sisters in Christ should be able to discuss this matter in peace.

Love In Christ,
Tom

 

  Yes.  I'm from the "I don't care 'cause it don't make a difference" school myself.  I believe the evidence both internal and external (i.e. Jewish wedding festivities lasting seven days) point to the catching away to meet the Lord in the air occurring seven years previous to His return to set up His kingdom.  What one believes about this matter as far as timing goes doesn't seem to be as important as what one believes concerning the return of the Lord Jesus to this planet.  I can see people being Christians and disagreeing about the timing of an event; I can't see where one can deny His return and be so. 
  What do you think?  Can someone deny the physical return of Jesus Christ to this planet and be a Christian?  Does that call for a new thread?
  finney

Hello Finney,

I do care, and I have spent a great amount of time Searching the Scriptures on this issue over the years.

I have met some people who don't believe in a RAPTURE at all OR the SECOND COMING OF CHRIST. NO, I really don't understand how they could be Christians and deny the Promises of GOD. I feel sorry for people stuck in cults and being taught by false teachers. As we all know, many are being deceived today. We've even had people deny that JESUS CHRIST is GOD and still profess themselves to be Christians. I think that the best answer to your question is I don't know how they could be saved, but ONLY GOD knows for sure. Some people are brainwashed with horrible teachings, and to say that they are confused is a gross understatement.

Finney, I think this thread is more than adequate to discuss these companion issues. Is it possible that there are some truly saved people in cults that completely deny major foundational issues? Maybe, but I wouldn't understand how in the cults that I'm thinking about. As an example, I have no idea how someone could be saved thinking that JESUS CHRIST is a created being, the brother of Lucifer - or that JESUS CHRIST was just a great man, messenger, or prophet. Some of these folks are so terribly confused that they doubt their own beliefs. In terms of their profession before men about what they believe, what they say would not equal Salvation. AND, many of the things they say are blasphemy and/or the WORST kind of false teaching! I've tried to help many, and I really don't think that I broke the hard shell of their brainwashing. However, we also have the promise of GOD that HIS WORD will never return void, so we might never know if that person accepted the LIVING CHRIST as SAVIOUR or not.

These are hard questions, and I'm glad that you asked them. I hope that others will also want to join in this discussion. I want to think about this some more, get some rest, and come back to this thread.

Love In Christ,
Tom

  I'm writing this on the fly, I've got to go to the hardware store. 
  Some things I'll write as a fishing expedition. Yes, I think things like this matter but I'm not always sure in what way they matter.  By that I mean do they matter as in position or do they matter in apprehension or do they matter in performance or a combination of those three and more or.... 
  I know this:  My Father is so anxious to save that He sent His only begotten, dearly beloved, perfect in loving obedience Son (let's talk about Him, instead) here as our sacrifice that He gave on our behalf even when we could care less.  Does it matter what we believe?  Yes!  Is who we believe more important or equally important?  Let me first ask a question before we attempt to come to grips with that:  Do you have perfect understanding?  Do you have perfect knowledge?  Are you saved? 

  When you were saved, did you have the same level of understanding that you have now?  Are you more saved now than then?

  I look forward to your posts, I don't get to talk to Christians very often (very seldom, actually).  May iron do to iron what iron does to iron.

  finney   

Hello Finney,

I think that you've already hit the nail on the head and probably know what my answers are. I might have also said something confusing that I should have clarified further. Bible Study and Searching the Scriptures are important to me. This is what I meant when I said these things are important to me. Everything in GOD'S WORD is important.

I would hope that nearly all Christians share the same answers to your questions. Becoming born-again is obviously the most important issue there is in this short life. By the way, nobody here claims to be anywhere close to being a Bible Scholar or having the correct interpretation on everything. This is just one reason why we spend most of our time with foundational issues and Bible facts. This is also why there is more than one reasonable opinion about the timing and sequence of events regarding the RAPTURE and other complex subjects in the BIBLE. If it's in the BIBLE, it's worthy of study and effort. It's also interesting to discuss the more complex issues if it can be done without folks getting angry.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 1:14-17 NASB
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'" For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

God has always provided a way of escape for his elect. Like Noah was protected from the flood, and Lot from Sodom. The rapture is a reward for rediness. If your right with God your escape his wrath or tribulation. In Matt.-Jesus says find yourself worthy to escape a snare. Snare is a trap. The tribulation trap. Those who are not ready, so they have to go through the tribulation to be called worthy.Can you imagine hearing about the rapture all your life then all of a sudden your left behind. It's the snare that Jesus was refering to.

  Question 1:  How do you get and then stay ready?  If it's by something you do, then your salvation from wrath is dependent upon you. 
  Question 2:  If you are made worthy by going through the tribulation (assuming you survive it), what then did the Lord Jesus die for? 


  1:  Romans 5:9  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
  2:  Matthew 24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

  finney

Brothers and Sisters,

This subject is covered in great detail in numerous threads already on the forum. I want to give everyone studying this subject a couple of hints that will help you greatly.

First, We are currently living in the Age or Dispensation of Grace, as the Apostle Paul puts it. Many people also call it the CHURCH AGE because this is the time when the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST IS FORMED. This is a CHURCH not made by human hands and has JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF as the HEAD. For those who study a little bit deeper, this is a MYSTERY not made known to men of other ages. Daniel and the other Old Testament Prophets knew NOTHING about the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. In fact, the Twelve Apostles knew NOTHING about the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST until the Apostle Paul revealed it to them. Truly saved Christians of this Age of Grace have already been "quickened" (translated) into the BODY OF CHRIST and already have the Promises from GOD of Eternal Life. Further, truly saved Christians of this Age of Grace have hearts "SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD". "SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD" is distinctive because the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD is in us and LIVES in us. No power in the universe can break this HOLY SEAL, and no power can pluck us out of the MIGHTY HANDS OF GOD.

Second, this Dispensation of Grace is going to END, and the Seven Year Tribulation Period will begin. There is a big difference between people who are Saved in the Dispensation of Grace and those who are Saved during the Tribulation Period. Those Saved during the Tribulation Period are called Tribulation Saints, and great hosts of them will face beheading for failure to take the Mark of the Beast. Those who take the Mark of the Beast will be damned for Eternity.

Third, make a distinction between GOD'S Promises to the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST and Israel. The two are NOT the same, and GOD made specific Promises to each that will be kept perfectly at HIS Appointed Time. I'm interested in the Promises that GOD made to Israel, but I'm in the BODY OF CHRIST. My Salvation is already SEALED AND SURE IN GOD'S PROMISES!

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 NASB
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:50-58 NASB
Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O  DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?" The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.

I agree that the restrainer is Michael the archangel as described in Daniel Chp 12.  After He stands up (stands still).......and ends his protection over Israel........the time of Jacob's trouble will begin.  This naturally will not only affect Israel but all people on earth. 

After the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week, you will have a time of Satan's wrath as expressed through the man of evil, false prophet, and man.  After a period of time, God will shorten (or end) this time.......otherwise no flesh would be saved. 

The whole world will then go black for an unspecified period of time (6th Seal and Mt. 24).  The great ones of the earth will hide in fear in caves.  This is because they know that God's wrath is about to begin. 

God has not appointed us to wrath.......namely His wrath (7th Seal).

Just prior to God's wrath, the 144,000 of Israel are sealed from harm.  They will remain on the earth.  Then a great multitude from all nations will appear in heaven.  They can wear robes and have palm branches in their hands.  This is the "rapture."  Then God's wrath begins as described in the 7th Seal.  The 5th trumpet judgment by itself lasts 5 months. 


The Day of the Lord is much longer than a human 24 hour day........and is announced at the 6th Seal. 


"Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!  For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"   (Rev. 6: 16-17)