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http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2006-04-12-baptism-trend_x.htm

"statistics find Americans slowly drifting away from the ancient baptismal ritual."

Our church hasn't experienced this, at least not yet. We usually have a crowd at baptismal services (we baptise believers by immersion, but don't practice infant baptism). We are planning on building a baptismal tank into our new building.

What is your experience at your church? What is your reaction to the article?

Hi Rhys, I don't think I've ever had a chance to welcome you to CU, so glad to have you.
At our church almost everyone stays for Baptismals we just love to see our new brothers and sisters  get baptized. We also have a Baptimal in our church, complete immersion, I believe that is the only true way to be baptized.  ;)

This is interesting - I heard something about it on the way to work this morning.  Right off the top, I will say I'm skeptical of USA Today - they aren't much more reliable than the New York Times.  I'm also suspicious of any story line that begins with "statistics indicate..."  A “Statistic" is a strange animal, something akin to a chameleon.  It changes to adapt to its environment and most often the environment is faultily controlled by the statistician.   

Having expressed my doubts, let’s say the story is actually true (from my experiences it is just the opposite) but let’s just say it is true.  According to statistics (obviously controlled by a different statistician than used by the USA Today) Christianity remains the fastest growing religion. (1) 

If Christianity is growing, why are baptisms declining?  What could logically cause it?  The story seems to indicate Christian apathy.  If baptism is declining due to apathy, then that would fall directly on the shoulders of our pastoral leadership.  It would also indicate we, as Evangelicals, are not stressing the importance of public commitment to Jesus through water baptism. 

For all the prophesy buffs out there - is there anything in prophesy that addresses a decline in baptism?  If so, I may take the story seriously.  I tend to think it is just a not-so-subtle jab at Christianity by USA Today liberals.  The liberal’s mission is to marginalize Christianity, and they’ll never miss a chance.   

(1) [Some indicators show Islam is the fastest growing, but sword-point conversions don’t sway the heart.  There is a difference in practicing Islam and bending to Islam.] 

I hope ya’ll have a GREAT Resurrection Day!  May Jesus be with you and yours – and please be safe!  I’m doing a 1,000 mile round trip (Austin to north of Amarillo) with my daughter.  Will do Sunrise Services at Palo Duro Canyon (I hope).
God bless all,  :)  :)  :)  :)
Jim

Hi guys.  My church also does not do infant baptism as we believe it must be a personal choice.  Also, the thought that an infant won't be protected or assured salvation by God unless they are baptized goes against the very nature of God.  Again, I am talking about infants who have not yet reached the age of accountability. 

We do full immersion baptism at a river not far from our church.  We love it.  There's barbeque and worship and all that stuff.  The only thing I would say airIam2worship, is that I tend to stay away from making statements like "the only true way" when it pertains to anything other than the gospel of Jesus Christ.  It makes a statement that leans towards legalism and focuses on the outward instead of the inward.

I once baptized a child at a kids camp who loved Jesus with all his heart and wanted everyone to know that he belonged to Him but he was afraid of getting in the river.  Should we have told him God would not honor his decision?  I grabbed a couple of gallons of water and baptized that kid!!  And I believe God was pleased with that young boy.  Also, I have known of people on their death beds who give their lives to the Lord and ask to be baptized.  Not as a means to salvation but in a response to salvation.  And they too have been sprinkled with the waters of baptism.

Praise God that He will not allow Himself to be placed in a box, and that He looks at the heart of men.

Lou thank you for the correction, I guess I wasn't thinking about how some people could be afraid of being immersed. I was more thinking along the lines of infants being baptized, with a few sprinklings of water poured on their forehead.

 :o :o :o my bad, sorry.

I guess I'll break the trend and say that my church-body DOES baptize infants.  We're against the whole "choice" thing.  We don't believe that natural man is capable of choosing salvation by himself, and baptism reflects this.  Baptism is not something that we're doing for God, it's something God is doing TO us.  Infant baptism shows that we do not depend on ourselves for salvation, that is a act completed soley by God.  I'm not saying that baptism is the point at which you're saved, but we consider it a "sacrament," meaning it's more than just the symbol that many protestant churches say it is.  And...baptism from a font is just as legitimate and effective as baptism by immerision.  I've never seen a baptism by immersion, actually.  Maybe I should.  Do churches do immersion just because it's an early church tradition?  If that's the case, they better start practicing closed communion!

Are you saying that God does not call all men to Salvation? Do you think that baptising infants ensures that they will accept Christ as their Saviour?

Baptism is used in two different situations in the Bible. One is in the case of water and one is in the case of the Holy Spirit. One must be careful when studying what the Bible says about baptism that they do not mix the two. When a person mixes the two they tend to return to placing the law back into their doctrine.

SosaysI, I have never read in the Bible where infants are Baptized. Baptism follows salvation, salvation is a choice made by each person, God does not force anyone int accepting the free gift of salvation, it is a matter of personal chioce a choice that has to be made when a person is old enough to assume the fact that we are all born sinners, and be old enough to confess his sins to God, repent of them and ask God for forgiveness. Then accepting the Lord Jesus as their personal Savior, all of this is done by faith. An infant is not aware of having been born in a sinful state, nor does an infant know how to confess his sin or repent and accept Jesus as his/her Savior. Each person has to be accountable for him/herself. This is something that no one else can do for us.

 Mr 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Notice 'baptism of repentance' how can an infant know enough to repent. No one is able to repent of someone elses' sin for them except the sinner himself.

 Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

 Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

 1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Again, notice the Scripture says 'repent and be ye baptized'. How can an infant repent?

 Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

How is a person born again? By receiving the Lord Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. I am sure you are familiar with John 3:16

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

First addressing the whole "no choosing" thing, which is really the centrality of the debate:

Ephesians 1:4-5  "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, He predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will." 

Ephesians 1:11 - "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will."

John 1:12-13 - "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."


John 3:27 John answered and said, "A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven.

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws (gk.-helko-to drag) him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 5:21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.

Ephesians 2:8-10  "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,  not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."


Acceping or choosing God seems a bit like works righteouness to me.  Wouldn't choosing be considered a work?  But no, we're saved through grace, not by anything we have done.  Only by God choosing US do we have the power to "choose" Him.

And so it goes with baptism.  Did we have anything to do with our first birth?  Then why would we have anything to do with our second? 

And regarding infant baptism, Jesus promoted the ideal faith as being that of a child's.  And yet we deem them as not being worthy of baptism?  Who is it doing all the killing and the stealing and commiting adultery and taking the Lord's name in vain?  It's not infants, I'll tell you that much. 

Hello Ruth (So_Says_I),

While you are correct that God must choose (or call) us first it is also true that we must then accept or reject him. It is not just a select few that are called as some predistinist seem to think. After all God has told us:

1Ti 2:4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

God would not have any be left behind but there will be those that are called that will still reject him.

 

I'm sorry I had to change names, my password wouldn't work and I guess I didn't set a password retriever question. 

Anyhow, in my theology class last semester, our prof suggested to our class that all people are born under God's grace (because Christ took away the sins of the world upon the cross) and we can reject that salvation, but since He already saved us, we can't accept it or choose it.  It's there.  He's done it to us.  That is His saving work.  Maybe we're just mincing words here, but when it comes to salvation, I can't see any part of the process being handed over to human beings.  I don't believe double predestination is scripturally accurate (God chose some and damned others).  I also don't believe we can accept Him.  It's one of those divine mystery things, I suppose.   ;)

The statement "all people are born under God's grace" is a concept that is usually adhered to by universalists. It is the idea that all men are already saved without our doing anything. We know that this is not true as the Bible specifically tells us that those people that reject him will spend an eternity in Hell.

Heb 12:25  See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:


2 Peter 2

It sounded like universalism to me as well...at first.  I haven't quite bought into it yet.  But I'm chewing on it. 

Anyway, I said that we could reject it.  I still don't think we can do the work of "accepting" it.  Of making a conscious decision apart from God.  How does that NOT qualify as a work?

When we accept Salvation through Jesus Christ we are not doing "works" we are simply acknowledging the good works that Jesus Christ did for us on the cross and through His resurrection. We believe in Him and the works that He did for us. It is through faith in Him and His works that saves and nothing that we ourselves have done or will do. Some would say that having faith would be considered works yet the Bible is clear in this aspect that it is through faith that we are saved.

AMEN brother, sing it out LOUD!

Accepting is salvation.  Baptism is professing the acceptance of that salvation brought to us by grace.
Baptism definitely is no means to salvation.  Who would not profess to the world through this act/ritual - to begin with?

In my opinion (also) infant baptism is not biblical.  Baptism follows salvation.  Beginning from John the Baptist, people repented, confessed and then took baptism.  An infant is in no position to do this.  Accepting Jesus is a vary conscious decision.

I know it is a oft debated topic.  I was babpized when i was an infant.  After accepting Jesus Christ, there was not anyone to suggest baptism to me.  But, when the right time came, I did it without tarrying.

Hi RKJ,

Welcome to Christians Unite forums. I must say Amen to your post. The Bible is quite clear on this subject. Infants have no need for baptism. God will not reject them even if something terrible does happen to them and they have not been baptized. There is much in the Bible on that also.

AH!!  I spent forty minutes typing up a reply, and when I posted, it got lost.  How frustrating.

Here's my question for all those who say we must accept salvation:  What about people who have never heard the Word of God?  Are they then saved by their works? 

I believe salvation is purely a gift from God.  That is Christ's work:  salvation.  Accepting or choosing anything is a work.  To say we're saved by choosing it seems like works righteousness.  I believe that God saves us through the power of His death and resurrection, we can't do anything on our own, we comply with what He does to us and for us.  Perhaps we have a part in our sanctification, but not in our justification.

Regarding baptism, why don't infants NEED it?  Where in the Bible does it say babies automatically go to heaven?  I'm not saying anything either way, but I want your Scriptural proof for this.

In Acts, a jailer is baptized along with his whole family.  Couldn't that have included children?  And Jesus commands us to baptize all nations.  He does not install an age-limit.

More verses about baptism later, I'm at work ;)

One more question, which will spark more discussion.  If we need to move it to another thread, then so be it.  What is the standard Evangelical/Protestant view of Holy Communion?

Obviously, it is impossible for infants to place their faith in Christ or publicly declare their faith. The Bible does not record a single infant being baptized.

Romans 6:3-4 Are you ignorant of the fact that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?  4 We were buried therefore with Him by the baptism into death, so that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious [power] of the Father, so we too might [habitually] live and behave in newness of life.
Acts 2:38 And Peter answered them, Repent (change your views and purpose to accept the will of God in your inner selves instead of rejecting it) and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of and release from your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

If parents wish to dedicate their child to Christ, then a baby dedication service is entirely appropriate. Even if a baby is dedicated to the Lord, when he grows up he will still have to make a personal decision to believe in Jesus Christ in order to be saved.

And where does this repentance come from?

Acts 11:16-18 - "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?" When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, "Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life."

Notice God granted it to them.

Is anybody actually reading what I'm posting? 

Can anybody answer my "hypothetical person" question? 

My point about baptism is that there IS no age limit set in the Bible.  And I want to know why you all think that children are exempt from the problem of sin, etc.  I'm coming from an original sin background. 

Following is a post that I have made on this subject before giving some verses that will answer this question for you. There are many more verses that cover it but htis should be sufficient. As we see a baby in the womb cannot be baptised in water.



2Sa 12:23  But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

We are told that God does not punish a child before they reach an age at which they would have knowledge between good and evil.


Deu 1:39  Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

We are also told that God will not refuse children.

Mar 10:14  But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

This is another reason that we know that it is God's grace that saves us and not that of works, because even children that have not had a chance to do any kind of works are received by Him:

Rom 9:11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

I appreciate the fact that you quoted right from Romans 9, a section of the Bible devoted to the topic of election.  I commend you to Romans 9:16 - "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."  THAT is my point on salvation.  Read chapters 9-11. 

The problem with your "all children go to heaven" model is simply when does that rule stop applying?  From the years 7-12 we're left in some vague, amorphous blob where they can either reject or accept God, or they go straight to heaven. 

I'm not saying children DON'T go to heaven.  I'm saying there no possible way we can judge when a child is not a child, and it's silly to make up arbitrary rules.  You have to make up these rules because a person has to accept salvation before he/she gets into heaven.  Also, what about mentally deficient people who cannot think or reason?  What if they are full-grown adults?  They are not children?  How can they be saved?  They cannot accept Jesus, but they are not children. I say a person can only "accept" what is put in them by God and therefore they're not accepting it, it's just there.  God takes us and makes us his.  Don't ask me why or how exactly it happens.  It happens on account of his divine mercy and grace and his will that all men may be saved. 


I'm from a tradition that teaches original sin, the inherent naturally sinful state of all people at all times and places:

Ephesians 2:1-3 - "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience - among whom we all lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

Psalm 51:5 - "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Romans 5:19 - "For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous."
(This verse compares Jesus to Adam, Jesus being the "second Adam" of sorts.  Just as we had no choice in the matter of becoming sinful, we have no choice in the matter when it comes to salvation)

And regarding infant baptism:  "Scholars from the traditions that practice infant baptism contend that indirect evidence for baptizing children exists within the New Testament. They cite occasions from the Book of Acts when whole households were baptized, in the words "The promise is for you and for your children."  (wikipedia)

Once again, we must be "born again," correct? (although my theology prof would argue that in Greek it actually says 'begotten from above')  How much did we have to do with our first birth?  Not a thing.  How much, then do we have to do with our second birth?

Is accepting something a work?

What about the "hypothetical person" on an island who has never heard about Jesus or has no idea about the Bible, etc...And he's a full grown male.  How can he accept this?
   
And you are right that Jesus did not refuse children.  But how did they get to Jesus?  Did they get there on their own?  No.  They had someone else bring them.  And then Jesus says that we must have faith like a child...a child who cannot reason anything out or understand anything or accept Him.  In other words, we are to have faith as a person who cannot choose Christ.  Oooh boy...

I have already shown you what the Bible has to say on the subject. Baptized or not children that have reached the age of accountablility will go to heaven. Those that are mentally handicapped to the point of not knowing right from wrong and not being able to make a decision would be as a child. I also agreed with you that a person must be called of God however there are those that have been called that have turned away and refuse to take that step towards Him. Your posts are starting to just go in circles on these subjects. You either accept the whole word of God or not. That is alol there can be said about it. Baptism still has nothing to do with it.

The age of accountability is not Scriptural.  Perhaps in the Old Testament there is a reference to who would get to go into Canaan and children could not choose wrong or right and therefore got in, but that does not mean that there is this magical point in a child's life where they pass from childhood to the age of accountability and must then choose.  Just because children cannot choose good or evil, it does not mean they aren't born sinful.  The Bible does not provide nearly enough evidence to formulate a doctrine on an age of accountability.  Therefore I do not understand why it is being taught in any church. 

If I am going in circles, it's because all my points lead back to each other, and are centered around Scripture.  Any "accepting" or "choosing" that goes on in the New Testament is on account of God, not by human will or exertion, as Romans says. 

I think Jesus' words on children are the most reliable.  He tells full-grown adults they must have faith as a little children.  A little child, who according to you (and me), can't create faith.  Jesus' actions towards children are also reliable.  He receives those who are brought to Him, who could not come on their own accord, who could not accept Him.  And we must have faith like them -- we who cannot accept Him, who lack the capacity to understand Him, who can only trust Him and love Him as He gives us the power to do.  The power to become children of God. 

I do believe we can reject God's grace and mercy.  I don't believe there is anything we can do to accept it or choose it or bring it to ourselves.  Those are works.  And all good protestants (and Lutherans, for that matter) know that we are not saved by works.  God's grace is sufficient. 

On the contrary. It is the same point repeated over and again.

Now I am going to risk repeating myself. When we accept Salvation through Jesus Christ we are not doing "works" we are simply acknowledging the good works that Jesus Christ did for us on the cross and through His resurrection. We believe in Him and the works that He did for us. It is through faith in Him and His works that saves and nothing that we ourselves have done or will do. Some would say that having faith would be considered works yet the Bible is clear in this aspect that it is through faith that we are saved.

I am glad that I do not believe as you do, that I believe that God being a mreciful God would accept a child of mine lost at the age of 2 yrs not being baptized nor old enough to know who Jesus is into heaven.

With that said I will leave you to your confusion and lack of understanding that you have so clearly displayed. In other words I am finished with this conversation. The rest from here is between you and God.

I'd like to make myself clear:  I never said I believe children that die are going to hell or that Jesus will not accept them.  My point is that your doctrine of age of accountability lies on a shaky ground at best.  We are promised no such thing in Scripture.  Judging based on the merciful nature of God, it's quite possible that children go to be with Jesus, but not because they didn't have the capacity to make a certain decision, rather because God is loving, merciful, and wise.  I just don't think that there's much of a difference between children and adults.  We're all sinful, we're all in need of God's grace, what difference does age make to an eternal God?  I'm going with Jesus on this one:  faith like a child.  Faith that some unfortunately say does not exist because they can't choose to have it.  Jesus seems to think children can have faith.  I'm going with Him. 

Luke 10:21 - "In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, 'I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes Father, for such was your gracious will."

Luke 18:17 - "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it."
(How do children receive the kingdom?  Well, they sure don't understand it.  They can't think it out and make a logical decision for themselves. Dare I suggest that God has something to do with their salvation and the faith and their trust?)
 
There is a difference between acknowledging and accepting.  You can acknowledge something without accepting it, trusting it, or believing in it. 

God has chosen us before the foundations of the world!  He loves us and had brought us into His family through the blood of Christ, by His own merit.  There is nothing we can do to earn this salvation, it is ours because God has said it's so.   I too am done here.   I'm not going to resort to saying you're "confused" and you "lack understanding" and I'm not going to rejoice in the fact that we don't agree and you don't believe what I believe, but I will thank you for talking with me.  It challenged me and caused me to get into the Word to reaffirm my position.  Grace and peace to you. 

There you go! One has to do all this with all his heart and soul.  Otherwise, life is gonna be shaky...all the time (ie if one only acknowledges it and calls oneself saved).

Not attempting to revive the discussion....

*I was merely highlighting an inconsistency.  The two words cannot be used in the same context when discussion salvation.  I'd be more prone to acknowledging the fact that I'm saved rather than "accepting" that salvation.  Maybe it's a petty matter of words, but words are tricky in theological discussions.*

FIN

Amen RKJ, and I agree with Ruth on that statement. You are completely correct. We must acknowledge theat Jesus is Lord and believe that He died on the cross for us. (to have knowledge of). We must repent of our sins. We must receive Him into our hearts.

No problem in reviving the conversation if you wish to carry on with it.


Luk 1:77  To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,


Act 16:31  And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Act 3:19  Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Joh 5:43  I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive[/b[ me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

1Co 2:12  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Gal 3:2  This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Col 2:6  As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:


receive = 1. to permit to enter : ADMIT b : WELCOME, GREET 2. to accept

From where is the power coming to receive Christ?  From Him, would be my answer.  Therefore you're still not doing anything for your salvation. 

You could say a vessel is receiving water when it is poured into it, but is the vessel doing anything?  No, it is the one who is pouring. 

If you truly believe you can accept Christ by your own decision and will, somehow that puts you a step above all the other sinners in the world.  You'e got some sort of advantage that they don't.  Why is it that you can see what they can't? 

our church does full immersion. Had one guy go in with mask snorkel and fins on......it was hillarious.

The same thing could be said about your statement, what makes you sp special that God would give you a gift that he wouldn't give to any other sinner in the world.  The answer in both cases is nothing for God treats all men the same, He is no respecter of persons.



Amen. Of which power He gives all men to either accept or to reject His wonderful gift as they so wish. God wants those that willingly  come to Him to worship Him. Not those that were forced in any way.


Your example is moot because you are talking about an inanimate object. Man is given a will by God. A will to accept or to reject a gift. If you are given a gift by someone else do you not have the ability to reject that gift or to graciously accept it? Yes you do. It is the same in the situation with God's wonderful gift of salvation. All men are the same, we all have the ability through the power that He has given us to accept or reject Him. We are no different He gives the exact same gift of Salvation to all men.

Pastor presented a message a couple weeks ago that may help.

in short

"Faith without works is dead"

When we accept Gods gift and a believe that our sin debt is paid, we are going to go to heaven. There is a point that we will be rewarded for our works. The issue here is that we can not gain acces to heave by works. Only Christ. We have a responcibillity to do certain things as believers....ie. works. Specifically the great commision, and that whole "love eachother as I have loved you" thing. If we act on this conmmand o our Saviour how can we not actually do "works" in His name for His glory?

If we do "works" without faith it is pointless. If we do "works" for our own benefit it is pointless. We do works for His glory. That is the only motivation. God did this amazing thing for ma and saved me from death........the least I can do is love others.......

I don't care if there are rewards. I can't see into the future to see what I am working for and honestly.....God said heaven is cool so thats all I need to know about it. He wants me to love people and help them to see that God loves them. So thats what I will try to do. If it is as simple as giveing somone the extra $50 I got from wherever than its gone.

It doesn't matter to me if I get to see the result.

Standing before the trone........to hear "well done good and faithfull servent" :'( thats enough reward. If God is happy......I'm happy



As for the age of a child. As christian parents we are obligated to raise our children to follow God. The live by our xample and all children reach the age of realization at different times. We don't know when that is......God does. So we have to show them Gods way and salvation so that when they "realize" right and wrong they can be saved through faith and enter into the kingdom of heaven. up till that point the have a free pass. When they gain the knowlage of right and wrong they are at that point vulnerable.

"All men are the same, we all have the ability through the power that He has given us to accept or reject Him."

You say we have the ability to accept Christ through the power He gives us.  That's my point!  It's not us accepting on our own, it's only because of His power!  It's His work.  And once again, what about the people who DON'T receive the power?  If it's only His power that allows us to choose Him, and the power isn't distributed to everyone, isn't that a form of predestination?

I could go back to my original point made by my theology prof that perhaps all people are saved just because Christ took away the sins of the world, but we can reject this salvation.  I'm not saying this is neccessarily the way it is, I'm saying it's something to think about.  

Regarding faith without works is dead...I believe it, because if you have faith, works will naturally follow.  God has given us the good works for us to do.  Good works are a sign that you have faith, they are not a prerequisite for having faith. 

Oh good.  Baptism should be hilarious.


Where in the New Testament does it say that children have a free pass into heaven until they can make a decision for Jesus?  I hate to bring this up again, but regarding faith, Jesus presented the ideal faith being that of a child's...A child who cannot decide for him or herself whether to believe in Jesus.  Isn't that saying something about how our faith is supposed to be and IS? 

No it is not predestination. You have left out part of what was said. We have been given the ability to accept or reject. We have the ability to do either. All men have been given this power equally.  That is up to each individual to choose which way they go. God could put it into each and everyone of us to accept Him but He doesn't. He wants those with a willing heart. Therefore He has given all of us the ability to decide this on our own. To say otherwise is saying that God Himself has one person in respect over another and we know that this is not true.

Romans 9:14-24 - "What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."

    "You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"


Ephesians 1:3-14 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth."
   
"In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."


John 15:16 - "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you."

Exactly, we have that free will that caused the whole originall sin to begin with. we always had the abilities God gave us. we had no choise in that at all. We have the choice to follow or stray.

Children don't have the knowlage of right and wrong untill we teach them. They follow our example until they become able to dicide for themselve. At that point they can follow or stray, their choice.


God can force us to follow but doen't want mindless zombies. He wants joyfull willfull obediance.

Where in the bible does it say that our faith is a morbid, solumn thing.

It doesn't make my brother in Christ less of a believer than anyone else because he has a sence of humor. Pastor posted a picture of it on our church web site. He must have not seen anything that took away from our brothers faith.

I belive it was David that wrote the psalms that speak of rejoicing in celebration of our faith

We should rejoyce in our salvation......not morn it

lol @ age of accountability

Nicole welcome to CU, I hope you enjoy your visits with us. I am looking ofrward to more of your posts
In Christ,
Maria

Brothers and Sisters,

The real and only TRUTH here is very simple:

The Holy Bible makes is exceptionally clear that Almighty God doesn't want any person to die in their sins without JESUS.

It should be obvious that GOD has the power to order whatever HE wants, but HE didn't. HE gives each man and each woman the choice to either accept or reject JESUS CHRIST as Lord and Saviour.

Some in this thread are grossly confusing predestination with GOD'S foreknowledge of all. GOD knew the number of hairs on our heads before the foundation of the world. YES, GOD knows who will accept and who will reject JESUS CHRIST as Lord and Saviour, and GOD knew this before the foundation of the world.

Nobody wanting to accept JESUS CHRIST as Lord and Saviour will be rejected - NOT ONE! Nobody will be forced to accept JESUS CHRIST as Lord and Saviour - NOT ONE!

ALMIGHTY GOD knew the time that each sparrow would fall out of the sky before the foundation of the world. There are many reasons why our CREATOR is known as ALMIGHTY AND ALL-POWERFUL, simply because HE is. GOD does love us, and HE wants us to return HIS love, but GOD won't force us to love HIM or accept HIM. HE could have made humans like robots with a love for HIM starting at birth, but HE didn't.

Many will even mock the things of GOD, and GOD will allow this. However, there will be a final JUDGMENT that won't be humorous at all, and that JUDGMENT will be for eternity. Bluntly, I feel very sorry for those who wish to laugh at GOD or the things of GOD. In the absence of repentance, their short laughter in this life will result in the fires of hell for eternity with the devil.


Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 119:11 NASB  Your word I have treasured in my heart, That I may not sin against You.

AMEN Brother, I couldn't have said it better myself.

I don't look at it as God forcing salvation on anyone.  I look at it as Him loving us and saving us on His own accord, while we were still dead in trespasses, without anything of our doing, without any merit and worthiness in us.  

I believe what the verses say.  

Who's laughing at God or the things of God?  The only person who's mentioned anything humorous in this post is Rookieupgrade1.  

There is a proper distinction between Law and Gospel.  Your fire and brimstone proclamations aren't helping anyone in this thread.  

Dedication of infants at the alter is quite different from baptism at an age where he/she decides and professes.

Jesus was dedicated to God when He was a baby.  If He wanted to he would have stopped at that.  He still did come forward to get baptised in front of many (in spite of not requiring it - He was spotless).

He has set us an example - external and internal actions, to follow.  Why pick some and leave some?
It is clear that baptism is an external action of what has happened internally.  Why hide candle light with a bushel of  (ir)rational justifications?

Baptism is an act of obedience that we have accepted Jesus.  And as rightly pointed out we have the will to reject Jesus.  When we do not accept Jesus, we have infact rejected Him.  When we accept Jesus we would follow Him with our all, casting aside doubts, reluctance and of course arguments.

Ruth where in this thread are you reffering to as fire and brimstone?

blackeyedpeas last post

I see nothing wrong his post myself. It says this is the way it is just as Jesus did so many times in His teachings. God is not in heaven saying let's make a deal ......

It is a plain fact. We either accept Him or we rejct Him, if we reject Him then it is fire and brimstone that we will face.

Just to point out the intention of my "humorous" post.

We celibrate baptism for what it is. The external proclomation of the inward rebirth.

I didn't intend to offend anyone.

that being said,

God changed my life because I invited him in. I realize that I can not control my life cause I keep messing it up. I need God to help me so I syop messing up His plan for my life.

His plan not mine. I just mess it all up. By standing aside and letting him call the shots.....my wife an I reconciled our marriage (thanks and praise to God) and she has come to her own relationship with Christ. I  couldn't do it. The spirit did it through me. without my help. I was the passive conduit of the power of the spirit.

We were baptised by immersion together.

Happiest day of my life.



Our church practices infant dedication, and the baptism of believers. Thats what the bible teaches, thats what what we do.

Jesus doesn't force us to accept Him, thats free will, our choice.
 
I see nothing wrong, with Blackeyedpeas post. Jesus worked this way in alot of His teachings. Jesus fulfilled the law, of Moses. We now live in the "Age Of Grace."

BEPs post was in line with what the Word of God has to say. I don't see anything wrong with it either. It's too bad Ruth misinterpreted it and thinks that we are all preaching doom.

Ah, the "man on the island."

Every living being is consciously aware that there is a higher power - "The heavens declare God’s glory, the skies proclaim the work of His hands” (Psalm 19:1).  This is pretty much the same about people who are mentally handicapped.  Whether they know the story (Jesus coming to earth, etc) or not, they will be judged accordingly to their knowledge.

Luke 12:48 - "To whom much is given much is required."  Mentally handicapped/the man on the island only are only given so much knowledge and I think God will judge them according to their knowledge.

Ruth have you heard of the talking donkey? If not, here is the verses of Scripture................

Numbers 22:28-30  And the Lord opened the mouth of the donkey, and she said to Balaam, What have I done to you that you should strike me these three times?  29 And Balaam said to the donkey, Because you have ridiculed and provoked me! I wish there were a sword in my hand, for now I would kill you!  30 And the donkey said to Balaam, Am not I your donkey, upon which you have ridden all your life long until this day? Was I ever accustomed to do so to you? And he said, No.

As you can see, God will get His Word across.

Ruth God will make sure that all will hear the Gospel. His own Word tells us:

Luk 19:40  And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

If God had to use a raven to feed Elijah, a donkey talk, the Red Sea part, an angel appear to many people in the Bible, then He can also make sure that any and every person will hear His Word.

Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Proof of God's existence/grace doesn't always have to literally be physically visible (donkey, raven, etc).  Isn't that what faith is?  Faith like a child, it's something greater than them and they accept it even though it's not something they can clearly see or touch or even understand.

While that is very true it is not the point that was being made. The point is that in some form shape or way God gets His message across to all people. It is a matter of whether they want to accept or reject it.

How is inviting Him in NOT a work?  That does not make any sense.  Look at the use of "I" in that statement.  It screams works righteousness. 

What do you make of these verses:

Romans 9:15-16 - "For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.'  So then it depends not on human will or [or inviting or accepting] or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."

By the way, predestination and foreknowledge are not the same thing.  Fore-knowing something is just knowing it beforehand.  Predestining or choosing something is an action.  Therefore:

Ephesians 1:3-5 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.  In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will..."

In the use of "predestined," God is clearly taking action by choosing us for adoption through Jesus Christ.  He's adopting us, we're not coming to Him.  Just like the little children were received by Jesus.  They did not come on their own accord, but yet Jesus received them.  And we are told to have faith like theirs. 

Nobody has responded to my "faith like a child" model yet.  This is the kind of faith Jesus tells us to have.  But you say children are not capable of having faith, because they cannot choose it.  How does this work out?

Ruth or "So Says I",

AND whoever else has joined you. I really don't know what kind of game you are trying to play. At first, I thought that you just might have been terribly confused about the Gospel of the Grace of God. This is nothing to play games with on a Christian forum.

JESUS CHRIST died on the Cross for ALL of humanity, not just some. Not everyone will accept this most precious Gift from God, and they will die in their sins. Here's some more fire and brimstone for you: 

1 - JESUS CHRIST will not reject a single person wanting to accept HIM as Lord and Saviour.

2 - Those who spend eternity in the fires of hell will do so because they rejected JESUS - not because JESUS rejected them.

The mockery I talked about regarded you and whatever game you are trying to play. Salvation is not a topic for games, and it's certainly not a topic for troll games with Christians.

I give thanks that nobody will take seriously what you have proposed as Bible doctrine. If what you said was true, there would be no need of the Holy Bible and no need of JESUS dying on the cross. Everything would be handled automatically with mindless robots who wouldn't even need a preacher, much less a Holy Bible. Faith wouldn't come with hearing, rather those who were predestined would be born with it.

I'll say this once and hope you take the hint. The GOSPEL and SALVATION are nothing to play games with on a Christian forum. You chose the wrong topic for fun and games. Take your games elsewhere.

Moderator

Hello Rookieupgrade1,

Brother, I'm not aware of you offending anyone. You simply posted in the middle of a game that someone else was playing.

All Christians know of beautiful things that GOD has done in their lives. It definitely is a matter of joy, thanks, and praise to know that you belong to JESUS. Christians should be the happiest people on earth. Even during our hardest times, our LORD and Saviour will never leave or forsake us.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 1:17 NASB  For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

I addressed the issue of my name-change a few pages back.  

I am not playing games.  If you take this conversation as playing games...well, I do not know what to say to that, and I guess I have nothing to say other than you've mistaken me.  I have quotes Scripture in almost every post I've added, and have received clear answers from your party on less than half of the questions I've asked and rebuttles to less than half the arguments I've made.  If you are correct and are teaching the Gospel truth, as you claim to be, how come you cannot answer me?  I have quoted Scripture.  You are accusing me of misreading it, but not telling me how.  

Here is what you are saying to me:

- We can only be saved if we invite Christ in, accept Him, or choose Him.  
- Christ gives us the power to choose Him (If Christ gives all men the power to choose Him, then how are people NOT choosing Him?  Or does Christ's power not work in some cases?)
- Children cannot make a decision for Jesus and therefore cannot have faith and therefore get into heaven just because of their age.  There's also an age of accountability where they can accept Jesus, which is not Scriptural.

Here is what I'm saying

- Salvation comes from God alone.  There is nothing we can do to get it for ourselves.  We cannot, by our own reason or strength, invite Him in or make some sort of "decision" for Him. (see second point's Scriptural citations)
- God grants the repentence that leads to life-giving faith, which is also from God (Acts 11:17-18, Phillipians 1:28-29, John 1:12-13, John 15:16, Ephesians 1:3-5, Romans 9:14-16)
- Jesus tells us to have faith like children.  He says "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it." (Luke 18:17).  Children cannot choose or make a decision for themselves regarding salvation, and this is the type of faith we're supposed to have.  

Ruth,

I can see that you didn't take the hint. You twisted what others have told you here to the point that it's upside-down, inside-out. Maybe you can start by going back and seeing what people really said to you here. The posts are still there, so I won't bother quoting what was actually said. This simply adds to the evidence that you are playing a game.

If you are actually trying to talk about some kind of Salvation doctrine, what do you call it? I've not heard of one where JESUS only died for some and would reject some who wanted to accept HIM as Lord and Saviour. If you're not playing a game, again, I would ask "What do you call this?"

Amen brother. She is either playing a game or she is blind and cannot see what is written. She has indeed twisted what was said to her and intent on omitting the "reject" part of statements made to her.

Nowhere have I ever said Jesus would reject anyone.  Now you are twisting my words.  But this is old news.  Here's what I've read in this thread:

"Baptism follows salvation, salvation is a choice made by each person, God does not force anyone int accepting the free gift of salvation, it is a matter of personal chioce a choice that has to be made when a person is old enough to assume the fact that we are all born sinners, and be old enough to confess his sins to God, repent of them and ask God for forgiveness. Then accepting the Lord Jesus as their personal Savior, all of this is done by faith. An infant is not aware of having been born in a sinful state, nor does an infant know how to confess his sin or repent and accept Jesus as his/her Savior. Each person has to be accountable for him/herself. This is something that no one else can do for us." - airIam2worship
--- Jesus became accountable for us on the cross.  Can somebody explain how choosing is not a work? ---

"When we accept Salvation through Jesus Christ we are not doing "works" we are simply acknowledging the good works that Jesus Christ did for us on the cross and through His resurrection." - Pastor Roger
--- What do you call "acknowledging"?  That is surely not some passive thing that is happening to us.  That is something you're doing, and you believe that you cannot be saved unless you do this thing. ----

"Accepting is salvation." - RKJ
--- Once again, what is accepting? Who is doing this accepting? ---

"when he grows up he will still have to make a personal decision to believe in Jesus Christ in order to be saved." - DreamWeaver
--- Ephesians 2:8-9 - "For by grace you have been saved through faith.  And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."


I must have posted my "faith like a child" theory six or seven times, and no one has sufficiently replied.  This is no game, this is a debate, considering it's under the "debate" section.  Anybody want to give it a shot?  

Rather than accusing me as if my posts were malicious and leaving it at that, why can't you continue this discourse?  You believe what you believe for a reason.  I believe what I believe for a reason, and I'm using a heck of a lot of Scripture to back it up.  If I'm twisting it, tell me how rather than just telling me that I am.

Ruth you asked about a child being  Baptised, I answered you and you didn't like the answer I gave you. In order for my statement to make sense you have to post the whole post. So on that note...........

Ruth,

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Rev 3:20

You say we have nothing to do!  We got to open the door when He knocks!  God has indeed given us free will to choose.  In spite of the Holy Spirit's conviction of my sins I still can keep my back to God .  Gospel is being preached more than ever.  Do you think everyone who heard it were not convicted of their sins?  If all had made a 'decision', 2/3rd of the world would be in.

All  hear the voice of Jesus, they still do not want to open the door, coz it means that their way of life was wrong, it would mean that they need to change....it is very baffling to anyone.  Children can never get this - except those who have been under unbearable sufering.

If it is the decision part that stops God, why dont He take us up while we are indeed children?  That way He need not stand the rejection by many.  He need not be full of enduring grace!

I am sure you are a saved faithful steward of God.  Perhaps, you need to unlearn the 'helpless mentatlity in accepting salvation' you were taught. Or you were so helpless to make the decision and God knew it and accepted as you were.  That does not mean that it will apply to all.

I like your unrelenting questioning mind!  But it can also be very limiting in Christian life.

I hope I was clear somewhere in this post!!

It seems that Ruth is following the doctrine of man. Not the Doctrine of God. I don't know how I missed that before.

My "faith like a child" model didn't have much to do with baptism.  Here is the premise, once again:

- Jesus tells us to have faith like a child.  Luke 18:17 - "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it."
- You say that a child cannot make the decision to accept Jesus (and rightfully so).  Therefore you say they can't have faith (wrongly so, because Jesus says they can).
- This observation does not change what Jesus said.  He still tells us to receive Him as a child would receive Him.  Where does this leave us?

My conclusion:  We cannot accept Christ, just as children cannot accept Christ, but children have faith, therefore we may have faith, because it is granted to us by the Father.  It is not of our own doing.  

And RKJ, thank you for being so kind.  I appreciate it.  I know we don't agree, but we can at least be cordial and encourage each other in exploring our faith.  However, regarding our "helplessness"...I was.  We all were.  In fact, being dead in trespasses is even MORE hopeless than being helpless, if you catch my drift:  

Ephesians 2:1-10:  "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."


Yes, we open the door.  But not by our own will, strength, merit, or power.  

Uh...?  I believe communion's in the Bible...maybe I'm mistaken?

PS:  Thank you to bronzesnake for being very understanding and open about this situation.  I hope to keep in touch with you.

You asked for a Evangelical/Protestant view. I don't follow mans doctrine, I follow the Bible, not man.

By the way, yes, Communion is in the Bible, I believe it is said 9 times.  In Psalms, Proverbs, 3 times in 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, and 2 times in 1 John. That I can remember off the top of my head.

You'll need to explain yourself a little more, DreamWeaver.  How am I following man's doctrine?

Yay! Ruth's got a new friend!!

Well Ruth, with my own will, strength, merit, or power i can very well 'not open' the door. I am an example.  It was Jesus who kept knocking, telling me about my miserable living and promising me life eternal.  I kept rejecting Him and I am no super human with uper strength.  i just wanted to live in the stink of my sin.

But sure enough as you say, I was helpless too when i did finally accept Him, but still it was not a numb move.

I am sure others have mentioned this in different ways.

If we were talking about this in person, I'd shake your hand.  I truly am grateful for your kindness on the board. 

Now...back to our regularly scheduled program...

Do you guys ever, EVER sleep???!!

Normally I'd be in bed by this time, considering I have classes tomorrow, but the excitement has kept me up.  Nothing like a good theological debate to make you sleep easy when the times comes, though.   ;)

Ruth,

I have a question for you that is associated with your stance. Just exactly what doctrine do you go by (already asked by blackeyedpeas and still unanswered by you)?

You mix, different regilions together. So far you have covered, Catholic, universalism, & Calivism, and a few I'm not sure of Ruth. Think about it, you will see where I am coming from.

It took you 15 minutes to come up with THAT?  Juuuust kidding...

I'm sorry if blackeyedpeas asked me that and I didn't respond.  I honestly didn't catch it, but I'd be glad to answer.  If you mean what denomination do I affiliate myself with, it'd be the Lutheran Church -  Missouri Synod (No, I'm not Roman Catholic as I suspect DreamWeaver was assuming I am).  If by "doctrine" you mean some written statement conveying all my beliefs...you'd have to wait a couple days for me to whip up something like that.  Or I could just refer you to the Book of Concord and the Augsburg confession, which explain the beliefs of the Lutheran Church.  I haven't read through those documents entirely myself, but I plan on doing it someday.  I do know quite a bit about the Lutheran Church, if you have any questions.

Yes I sleep, about 3 hours a night. Right now, its only 10:00 here. ;D Course I take catnaps durning the day.

I wouldn't go too far with the universalism, DreamWeaver.  A universalist believes everyone gets into heaven no matter what they believe.  I do not believe that, neither does Scripture convey that idea.

Catholic...You're talking about the Communion reference?  I'm not entirely in agreement with their doctrine of transubstantiation, if that's what's bothering you. 

Calvinism...nah, they believe in double predestination:  God saves some and damns others.  However, we know that God wants everyone to be saved.

My views on predestination (and the views of the Synod) are that it's a very mysterious thing, uncomprehendable to us. We know God is merciful and desires all men to be saved.  We can take an enormous amount of comfort in that.

Regarding the "God saves everyone, you can reject it" theory taught by one of my theology prof's...that is not a traditional Lutheran doctrine, and I never said it was something I absolutely was convinced of.  I said I was chewing on it.  If you mistook that for meaning I was absolutely set in this teaching, you were wrong.

You sound like an international woman of mystery Ruth! ;)
Why not just spit it out my sister? what's your game?

I'm a fundamentalist Christian, in the sense that I take the Bible at face value, literally.
I happen to go to an Anglican church at present, but I've also attended a Baptist church.
It doesn't matter what the sign on the front door reads, as long as I'm at a Bible believing church, I'm happy.

So, I showed you mine, now show me yours. ;)

John

I've always wanted to go to an Anglican church, Bronzesnake.  What can you let me know about it?

The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, of which I am a member, is a Bible-believing church which takes the Bible at face-value as well.  That description goes for me, as well.  What causes the difference between us is hermaneutics, I think - interpreting the original Greek/Hebrew and teaching what it means, etc... We believe the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God. 

I believe I am a sinner in need of God's grace and there is nothing - nothing - I can do to obtain my own salvation.  It is a free gift from God.  There is no merit or worthiness in me.  All of my worth comes from the cross of Christ.

The Missouri Synod is also Sacramental and Liturgical, two very important aspects, I think. At the time of the Reformation, Luther protested against what was wrong with the Roman Catholic Church, but let's face it, they weren't entirely wrong.  I reiterate...they were wrong about a LOT.  But some of their traditions have been passed down since the very beginning of the Church, starting with the Apostles and early Church Fathers, and I think these doctrines are incredibly valuable.  This includes the Real Presence in the Eucharist, as some of you were already beginnng to attack me for...

Gosh...I could go on forever.  Anything specific you want to ask before I hit the hay?  It's after midnight here.

Wow...four mods and little me.  I feel like I'm taking a final exam or something...one slip-up and down I go  :D

Researching the LCMS, I take it?  Listen, I really didn't mean to cause any problems on here.  I'm just enjoying myself.

;D ;D ;D Nope theres only 3 of us here at the moment........ ;D ;D ;D
Please remember, and this is NOT a warning Ruth.

Because of the limitations of text based communication, the expression of intent can be tricky.

Noted, DreamWeaver.  I'm assuming you have nothing else to say to me tonight.  I need to go to bed.  Have a good one, everyone! 

You have a nice and blessed night.

Now I beleive,  You guys do sleep!

Er....What is the topic now??! (blink, blink)

And a Very Good Morning and Good Day!!

lol  .....  once in awhile we do.

A Very Good Morning and Good Day in the Lord to you.

Good Morning RKJ  :D  :D
Yes, we do sleep but
here a bit, there a bit, every where a bit bit.
(tune to old Mcdonald had a farm)  ;D ;D

Good morning all.  I see you all had quite a discussion last night.  I confess I grew frustrated and tired of this one a long time ago.  I have debated with whether I should post or not, as I can tell that no amount of scripture or direct answers will appease those who do not want to be who do not want to be.

Ruth, please know that what I say is motivated by compassion and especially love for God's word and people.  You speak about child like faith.  The Lord also said about children "suffer not the little ones to come unto me."  Your views, whether you know it or not, are a stumbling block for those who are seeking and who are not familiar with the word of God.  Any doctrine that stops short of accepting Jesus Christ is, very bluntly,  an evil one, no matter how righteous or selfless we make it sound. 

Colossians Chp2

4 Now this I say lest anyone should deceive you with persuasive words. 5 For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ.
6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving.

We need to receive it.  Plain and simple.  Was Paul saying that they received salvation through works?  C'mon.  Enough is enough. 

Acts 16 30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

The man or woman who accepts Jesus, accepts also the fact that only Jesus can save them.  Was Paul suggesting to the Jailer that believing in Jesus Christ was a work?  And this was how he would be saved?  Absolutely not.  God never lies, never contradicts Himself.  Through His death on the cross, Jesus bridged the gap between God and man.  We still have to decide whether we want to cross it.

About the childrens faith.  Children have the same questions adults have.  "How do we know the bible is real?  Why is Jesus the only way?"  The difference is that when a child or most children receive the answer, they say "Oh...ok", and then the discussion is closed and they believe it.  They feel no need to voice their opinion or sound intelligent with their many words, they simply accept it(again, most).  This is the kind of faith Jesus meant when he compared us to children.  I admit, I lost you on your interpretation of that scripture. 

By the way, Mods hurrying to answer your post isn't necessarily a good thing.  When they see doctrine contrary to the word of God, they MUST be there to take a stand....if not for your sake, then for the sake of those who might read it and be confused by it.

Amen Lou, very well said.

Lou, my feelings exactly, as you notice I stopped posting a few pages ago, sometimes it's easier to stuff an elephant into a bottle, if you know what i mean

There is no one more deaf than a person that refuses to hear or more blind than a person that refuses to see. Now to borrow a phrase from Forrest Gump:
"And that's all I have to say about that."  :D

You can denounce my beliefs all you wish, but I have given you a lot of Scripture which many of you haven't even come close to touching.  I know all the verses say "believe" and "receive," etc, and I believe that.  My difference with you is from where the power comes to believe and receive these things, and I say it's from God.  

My words are inadequete, so I'll leave you with an official statement on the subject from my church-body, and that'll be it.


Of the Election of Grace
  (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, N.D.)
[Adopted 1932]

35. By the election of grace we mean this truth, that all those who by the grace of God alone, for Christ's sake, through the means of grace, are brought to faith, are justified, sanctified, and preserved in faith here in time, that all these have already from eternity been endowed by God with faith, justification, sanctification, and preservation in faith, and this for the same reason, namely, by grace alone, for Christ's sake, and by way of the means of grace. That this is the doctrine of the Holy Scripture is evident from Eph. 1:3-7; 2 Thess. 2:13, 14; Acts 13:48; Rom. 8:28-30; 2 Tim. 1:9; Matt. 24:22-24 (cp. Form. of Conc. Triglot, p. 1065, Paragraphs 5, 8, 23; M., p. 705).

36. Accordingly we reject as an anti-Scriptural error the doctrine that not alone the grace of God and the merit of Christ are the cause of the election of grace, but that God has, in addition, found or regarded something good in us which prompted or caused Him to elect us, this being variously designated as "good works," "right conduct," "proper self-determination," "refraining from willful resistance," etc. Nor does Holy Scripture know of an election "by foreseen faith," "in view of faith," as though the faith of the elect were to be placed before their election; but according to Scripture the faith which the elect have in time belongs to the spiritual blessings with which God has endowed them by His eternal election. For Scripture teaches Acts 13:48: "And as many as were ordained unto eternal life believed." Our Lutheran Confession also testifies (Triglot, p. 1065, Paragraph 8; M. p. 705): "The eternal election of God however, not only foresees and foreknows the salvation of the elect, but is also, from the gracious will and pleasure of God in Christ Jesus, a cause which procures, works, helps, and promotes our salvation and what pertains thereto; and upon this our salvation is so founded that the gates of hell cannot prevail against it, Matt. 16:18, as is written John 10:28: `Neither shall any man pluck My sheep out of My hand'; and again, Acts 13:48: `And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.."'

37. But as earnestly as we maintain that there is an election of grace, or a predestination to salvation, so decidedly do we teach, on the other hand, that there is no election of wrath, or predestination to damnation. Scripture plainly reveals the truth that the love of God for the world of lost sinners is universal, that is, that it embraces all men without exception, that Christ has fully reconciled all men unto God, and that God earnestly desires to bring all men to faith, to preserve them therein, and thus to save them, as Scripture testifies, 1 Tim. 2:4: "God will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." No man is lost because God has predestined him to eternal damnation. -- Eternal election is a cause why the elect are brought to faith in time, Acts 13:48; but election is not a cause why men remain unbelievers when they hear the Word of God. The reason assigned by Scripture for this sad fact is that these men judge themselves unworthy of everlasting life, putting the Word of God from them and obstinately resisting the Holy Ghost, whose earnest will it is to bring also them to repentance and faith by means of the Word, Act 13:46; 7:51; Matt. 23:37.

38. To be sure, it is necessary to observe the Scriptural distinction between the election of grace and the universal will of grace. This universal gracious will of God embraces all men; the election of grace, however, does not embrace all, but only a definite number, whom "God hath from the beginning chosen to salvation," 2 Thess. 2:13, the "remnant," the "seed" which "the Lord left," Rom. 9:27- 29, the "election," Rom. 11:7; and while the universal will of grace is frustrated in the case of most men, Matt. 22:14; Luke 7:30, the election of grace attains its end with all whom it embraces, Rom. 8:28-30. Scripture, however, while distinguishing between the universal will of grace and the election of grace, does not place the two in opposition to each other. On the contrary, it teaches that the grace dealing with those who are lost is altogether earnest and fully efficacious for conversion. Blind reason indeed declares these two truths to be contradictory; but we impose silence on our reason. The seeming disharmony will disappear in the light of heaven, 1 Cor. 13:12.

39. Furthermore, by election of grace, Scripture does not mean that one part of God's counsel of salvation according to which He will receive into heaven those who persevere in faith unto the end, but, on the contrary, Scripture means this, that God, before the foundation of the world, from pure grace, because of the redemption of Christ, has chosen for His own a definite number of persons out of the corrupt mass and has determined to bring them through Word and Sacrament, to faith and salvation.

40. Christians can and should be assured of their eternal election. This is evident from the fact that Scripture addresses them as the chosen ones and comforts them with their election, Eph. 1:4; 2 Thess. 2:13. This assurance of one's personal election, however, springs only from faith in the Gospel, from the assurance that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; on the contrary, through the life, suffering, and death of His Son He fully reconciled the whole world of sinners unto Himself. Faith in this truth leaves no room for the fear that God might still harbor thoughts of wrath and damnation concerning us. Scripture inculcates that in Rom. 8:32, 33: "He that spared not His own Son, but gave Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth." Luther's pastoral advice is therefore in accord with Scripture: "Gaze upon the wounds of Christ and the blood shed for you; there predestination will shine forth." (St. Louis ed., II, 181; on Gen. 26:9) That the Christian obtains the personal assurance of his eternal election in this way is taught also by our Lutheran Confessions (Formula of Concord, Triglot, p. 1071, Paragraph 26, M. 709): "Of this we should not judge according to our reason nor according to the Law or from any external appearance. Neither should we attempt to investigate the secret, concealed abyss of divine predestination, but should give heed to the revealed will of God. For He has made known unto us the mystery of His will and made it manifest through Christ that it might be preached, Eph. 1:9ff.; 2 Tim. 1:9f." -- In order to insure the proper method of viewing eternal election and the Christian's assurance of it, the Lutheran Confessions set forth at length the principle that election is not to be considered "in a bare manner (nude), as though God only held a muster, thus: `This one shall be saved, that one shall be damned"' (Formula of Concord, Triglot, p. 1065, Paragraph 9; M., p. 706); but "the Scriptures teach this doctrine in no other way than to direct us thereby to the Word, Eph. 1:13; 1 Cor. 1:7; exhort to repentance, 2 Tim. 3:16; urge to godliness, Eph. 1:14; John 15:3; strengthen faith and assure us of our salvation, Eph. 1:13; John 10:27f.; 2 Thess. 2:13f." (Formula of Concord, Triglot, p. 1067, Paragraph 12; M., p. 707). -- To sum up, just as God in time draws the Christian unto Himself through the Gospel, so He has already in His eternal election endowed them with "sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth," 2 Thess. 2:13. Therefore: If, by the grace of God, you believe in the Gospel of the forgiveness of your sins for Christ's sake, you are to be certain that you also belong to the number of God's elect, even as Scripture, 2 Thess. 2:13, addresses the believing Thessalonians as the chosen of God and gives thanks to God for their election.
 


And by the time children start questioning things about the Bible, haven't they about reached their "age of accountability"?  They're beginning to reason and make decisions and come to their own conclusions on things.  I'm sorry, that entire doctrine escapes me.  I have not heard of it in Scripture.

Whoa! Ruth  ???

I just realized that my brain is short of neurons already!  Did you go through all this text before you accepted Jesus?

I have mentioned elsewhere that there are places where people accept Jesus without even knowing that there is a book called Bible.  They then grow on to become great Christians - all the while havng only gospel of Mark or John in their language!!  They bring bounty of souls for God!  With all due respect, will this text benefit them in any way!! 

Loosen up Friend!!  Jesus loves you and you love Him with all your heart and that is what that matters and that is what you (and I) are worth.  Not the doctrines.  They will vanish.  Even this forum will be unattended when Jesus comes.  And if I bring this text to you when you are gazing at Jesus face, you will clobber me really bad!! :D

So my point is, dont think you are being a target.  This forum is not to change views of christian people.  It is to help them grow in a steady pace in Jesus.  There is no place for remorse!!

Hope your studies are going fine.

Amen again RKJ. There are many that have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour that didn't even have one page of the Bible.



Ruth I stand by what I said before. You are confused and it is easy to see why with that long winded doctrine that you have been taught. It was said before and I will repeat it, get away from the manmade doctrines. Turn to the Bible and study just the Bible. Insure that before you start that you ask God for guidance and to give you the knowledge that you seek not the knowldge of men that will draw you into the wrong way.

Thank you RKJ.  You are such a sweetheart.  I can't stress that enough  ;)  But I realize that this is a debate forum, not a conversion forum.  I did not say you need to read the LCMS's text on the election of grace to be saved, I'm just offering it as a scholarly view on the position of our Church.  Note it is laden with Scripture.
My only point in posting it is that I'm not making any of what I'm saying.  

And of course people can believe when only possessing one or two Gospels...the Word is powerful.  It works salvation no matter how much or how little of if you've heard.  

Pastor Roger, I do not understand why you persist in telling me that my doctrine is man-made.  If you're referring to the piece of official doctrine I posted, it, as I already pointed out, is full of Scripture.  Lutheran's don't teach ANYTHING without having a ton of Bible to back it up. 

There is a lot of selective scripture in it yes, there is also a ton of manmade doctrine that is utilizing that selective scripture. That is why it is important to study the Bible in whole not to be taught manmade doctrines. There are many that use scriptures selectively in that manner in order to prove some of the most foulest blasphemies there are. We are told to study to show ourselves approved. We need to study the Bible as a whole and to insure that we study what happened before the cross and after. And to be able to see what is and is not good doctrine. What you posted above is not good doctrine. I could point it out to you verse by verse however you would probably do the same as you have done so far, discounted all the verses that I have given so it is better if I just tell you to through away man doctrine and turn to studying the Bible and asking God to show you the way.

You have not replied to ANY of the verses on election/predestination that I've posted.  It's there.  God is doing something in these verses.  When he ordains, elects, or predestines, it's His action.  I cannot and will not take God's credit when it is His saving action that saves me.

And considering the amount of Scripture used in the above statement, I hardly believe you can call that "selective."  I trust that you took the time to read through it all and look up all the citations of course, in order to make your "selective" accusation.

And that's that.  I'm done with this particular conversation.  I'm sure you're all sick of it too, you've already expressed those sentiments.  If you have any more questions you'd like to ask me, feel free.  I'm always willing to answer. 

Read back through the thread again Ruth. Your questions were responded to. You simply chose to ignore or reject them as qualified answers. Again that is why I strongly suggest that you turn to the Bible for yourself and not that manmade doctrine.

I have not read any specific replies to any of the verses on predestination/election I posted.  You always countered with verses that said we have to believe, and I do not doubt that.  I'm saying the power to believe comes from God, not our own will or strength.  You have not directly confronted the Ephesians 1/2verses, the John 1/15 verses, the Romans 9 verses, etc...According to you, these verses cannot possibly mean what they're saying, but you haven't told me why not yet.  You just keep citing verses that say "believe."  I know we have to believe!  But from where does this faith come from?  From God. 

Once again, I'm open to questions.

Ruth, going off of your other posts, you would now be guilty of works.  No one ever denied where the power comes from.  All you have heard has been along the lines of "acknowledgement of God's power to save us."  This goes to show that one hears what one chooses to hear. 

From the get go, you decided that all those who said they accepted Jesus, were taking credit for their salvation.  It was addressed and expressed in a dozen different ways, you disagree with all of them.  You have judged the hearts of those here and have NOT assumed the best.  No one is trying to steal God's glory.  It is not your stance that God's power saves us, that I disagree with.  It's your stance that by acknowledging that power, I am guilty of works, that I disagree with.

I have judged the hearts of those here?  What about when I was called blind, deaf, confused, and twisted?  What about when some told me I was laughing at God and playing games and following man-made doctrine?

And talk about man-made doctrine...I have more Scriptural proof to support election than you do for Age of Accountability.  Accusing me of man-made doctrine seems a little hypocritical. 

Rookieupgrade1 said the following: "God changed my life because I invited him in."   Is this still just acknowledgement?

One of these days I'll stop replying, I swear.   :D  The line about me judging people's hearts just irked me a bit.

If you assume that I am taking credit for my salvation, then you are judging my heart and the conditions for which I accepted Christ.

By the way, don't swear.  Just let your yes be yes and no be no. ;D

Amen Brother Lou.

Ruth I showed you those verses on acknowledging, believing, and repenting because you said that we did not have anything to do in the matter. To this we can also add seek. God plainly tells us that we must do these things in order to receive the power of His Salvation. You clearly called them works. It is not a matter of works, it is a matter of obedience. We are to be obedient to Him. If we do not obey and do these things then we are rejecting Him and He will reject us.

Mat 7:7  Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8  For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.


Luk 11:9  And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
Luk 11:10  For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

I add another Amen to that brother Lou.

 :) ;) :D ;D >:( :( :o ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\ :-* :'(
Topics long forgotten breed such feelings!

Amen Brother.

So...nobody here is judging me? 

You sure have a funny way of showing that. 

Ok, I'm done with this topic.  It is clear we cannot agree.  However, I'm still open for questions.

Would anyone on this tread believe in Apostlic Seccession ?  By that I mean the chose of Pope after Pope in seccession ? Most of you would say Idon't believe in Apostlic Seccession. If it is true  , that you don't in Apostle Seccession, THEN WHY DO BELIEVE IN APOSTLIC BAPTISMS?   You can't be against apostlic Popes than deny apostlic baptism. Remember that the Gospel was still going th Jews only per Acts 11: 19. And you have to notice that only Jews were being baptized and not Gentiles.  Probably some one will mention Cornelius, but I have and answer for that. Those that believe IN BAPTISM will have to answer the difference between the formula of Matt 28: 19 in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and the formula used in Acts 2:38 where they are baptized IN THE NAME THE JESUS CHRIST, AND WHAT IS THE DIFFENENCE ?  The Matt 28 passage , they have to go to all the world to use , the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, WHERE in Acts 2:38 it is for the murder of their Messiah.