Print Page - Christ died on Thursday and rose on Sunday

Roman Catholicism has dictated the date of many Christian events and distorted the meaning of others. The fact is that Christ was not crucified on Friday, nor did he raise on Sunday morning.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whales belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

According to tradition, Jesus died on the cross at 3:00 PM on Friday and rose very early Sunday morning. How can three days and three nights be compressed in such a short time span? Most Christians simply ignore the obvious problem and hold the traditional view. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Jesus was crucified and died on Friday. This is because the Bible says that Jesus was crucified on the day before the Sabbath.

Mark 15:42 and now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath.

There were other Sabbaths beside the weekly Sabbath (Saturday). The first day of the Passover week no matter what day it may be.

Exodus 12:16 and in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.

Lev 23:7 in the first day ye shall have a holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

The Passover Sabbath, falling on the 15th of Nisan, which came on Thursday the year that Christ, died. It was not accidental that Christ died during the Passover. The Bible tells us that Jesus was tried and crucified as the preparation of the Passover was going on.

John 19:14 and it was the preparation of the Passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King:

Christ was not tried and crucified before the weekly Sabbath (Friday), but the day before the Passover Sabbath. In the year falling on Thursday, therefore, the only conclusion we can make is that Christ was crucified on Wednesday. John tells that Jesus ate the Passover the evening before and that he himself died on the cross at the very moment that the Passover lambs were being killed between the two evening on the 14th of Nisan Jesus the real paschal lamb, whom all other paschal lambs offered through the centuries were only types, was therefore slain at the very time appointed of God. He would not eat the Passover lamb on the Passover day, for he was the Passover lamb.

Exodus 12:3 speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for the house:

Exodus 12:6 and ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

Jesus was killed on the 14th of Nisan. He was not crucified on the Passover day but on the preparation of the Passover, and that he was to be three days and three nights in the grave, and as the preparation of the Passover that year would be Wednesday and his resurrection early on the first day of the week. This allows exactly three days and three nights in the grave. Jesus died some time after 3:00 PM on Wednesday and was placed in the tomb before dark or at the beginning of a new day, Thursday (remember that the day started at 6:00 PM). Wednesday night, Thursday night, and Friday night makes three nights. Thursday, Friday and Saturday day takes care of the three days. So at the beginning of the first day of the week which is Sunday, which started at 6:00 PM Saturday night our time, Jesus rose from the grave. The statement that Jesus made was literally true (Matthew 12:40), his body lay in the sepulcher three days and three nights, but he himself went into paradise and declared that the perfect sacrifice had been made and then led the O.T. saints out of that place and Paradise has been moved into the third heaven. (Ephesians 4:8-10; II Corinthians 12:2)

I Peter 3:18 for Christ also hath one suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, and quickened by the Spirit:

I Peter 3:19 by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

If we take exactly what the Bible teaches, we see the marvelous fulfillment of prophecy and O.T. typology, on the other hand, if we accept the Roman Catholic tradition, we rob Christ of essential glory. In fact if the traditional good Friday/Easter morning tradition not only robs Christ, it also neglects the clear teaching of Gods word, thus placing it beneath everything about the Passover lamb that Jesus was a picture of:

1. He was a lamb without spot or blemish. (Exodus 12:5 your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year.)

2. He was chosen on the 10th day of Nisan. (Exodus 12:3 in the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb.)

It was he 10th day of the month, the preceding Saturday, that the triumphal entry into Jerusalem was made, and not on Palm Sunday as tradition suggests. This is clear since Jesus came from Jericho to Bethany six day before the Passover.

John 12:1 then Jesus six day before the Passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.

This would have been Friday that he made the trip from Jericho to Bethany. If the Roman Catholic Palm Sunday is historically correct, it would mean that Jesus made a trip on the Sabbath (six days before Friday) in violation of the law.

Exodus 16:29 see, for that the Lord hath given you the Sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

Bethany was a Sabbaths day journey from Jerusalem.

Acts 1:12 then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a Sabbath days journey.

Jesus entered Jerusalem on the next day.

John 12:12 on the next day much people that were come to the feast, when thy heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem.

It was also the same day that Judas went to the chief priest and offered to betray Jesus for thirty pieces of silver (Matthew 26:6-16; Mark 14:3-11). That evening (Friday night), Jesus and his disciples were at dinner at Simon the Lepers house. That same night (now Saturday, 10th of Nisan, remember that the days begins at sunset), Judas sold Jesus the fulfillment of prophecy.

Zech 11:12 and I said unto them, if ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear, So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.

There is absolutely nothing is favor of a Friday crucifixion or any verses to support it. On the other hand, everything scripture offers on the time of the Lords crucifixion points to Wednesday:

1. Matthew 26:61 to build it in three days.

2. Matthew 27:40 buildest it in three days.

3. Matthew 27:63 after three days I will rise again.

4. Mark 8:31 and he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

5. Mark 9:31 and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

6. Mark 19:34 and shall kill him; and the third day he shall rise again.

This is interesting but not to be taken to extremes. I hold to the traditional Friday crucifixion.
From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.
And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.
Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.
For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.
And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the

third

day he shall rise again.
Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.
And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Friday is the first day, Saturday is the second, and Sunday is the third.

asaph 8)

Greetings A4C,
I agree with most of your post - that is that Christ indeed died on Wednesday and rose in the final moments of the Sabbath on our Saturday. However, I have a few things I would like to discuss, if you don't mind.

We are in agreement up to the point where you say:

Quote

…but he himself went into paradise and declared that the perfect sacrifice had been made and then led the O.T. saints out of that place and Paradise has been moved into the third heaven. (Ephesians 4:8-10; II Corinthians 12:2)

I Peter 3:18 for Christ also hath one suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, and quickened by the Spirit:

I Peter 3:19 by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

I know what many Christians think concerning Christ's promise to the thief (Luke 23:43), but I have never heard a satisfactory explanation for only the body of Jesus dying. If Christ did not "surely" die (Genesis 3:4), do we have a Savior? According to the Word of God, there is silence in the grave, no thoughts in one's mind or the ability to praise God or enjoy learning His Word (Psalm 30:9; 146:4; Isaiah 38:18-19). The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). If Christ did not pay that penalty, what did He do to pay for our sins?

As far as preaching to the "spirits in prison" who were disobedient during the time of Noah (1Peter 3:20), it was the Spirit of Christ in Noah that witnessed to those before the flood. Consider 1Peter 1:11, 12, where it plainly says that it was the Spirit of Christ in the prophets of old that witnessed to both the prophets and to those to whom they were sent.

Indeed Matthew 27:51-53 speaks of a resurrection, but the Word of God does not say exactly how long after Jesus' resurrection those saints rose from their graves. They were yet in their tombs at the time of Peter's first sermon on Pentecost, for as he testifies, the body of David was still in the grave near Jerusalem (Acts 2:29); so at this time David still slept as the Word of God says. Therefore Christ didn't take any spirit anywhere while He was in the grave for three days and three nights.

The next place that I cannot give you a DITTO is:

Quote

John 12:1 then Jesus six day before the Passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.

This would have been Friday that he made the trip from Jericho to Bethany. If the Roman Catholic Palm Sunday is historically correct, it would mean that Jesus made a trip on the Sabbath (six days before Friday) in violation of the law.

Exodus 16:29 see, for that the Lord hath given you the Sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

Bethany was a Sabbath day's journey from Jerusalem.

Acts 1:12 then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a Sabbath day's journey.

John 12:1 is a bit premature. Jesus came from Jericho as you say, but He entered Jerusalem first, threw the money changers out of the Temple, preached to the people and left for Bethany (Matthew 21:12-17; Mark 11:11). He came to Bethany from Jerusalem, not Jericho. Also, He spent the Sabbath at Bethany, because from the town of Bethany to the city of Jerusalem was NOT a Sabbath day's journey. Let me explain.

Notice your Scripture above (Exodus 16:29). Moses said that no one could go out of his place during the time of the Sabbath. "HIS PLACE" came to be defined as the city limits of a town or 2000 cubits if you were on a journey between cities when the Sabbath came. The word for "place" (S.4725) is maqowm and means locality, country, or home. In Numbers 35:5 the Law fixed the limits of the city to its suburbs of 2000 cubits on every side. This was considered to be a Sabbath Day's journey, set by ancient rabbis and continued to the time of Jesus (Acts 1:12). That Jesus agreed with this prohibition of travel on the Sabbath can be seen in the Olivet Prophecy in Matthew 24:20, where He tells the apostles to pray that their flight in persecution would not occur in winter or on the Sabbath day.

Some Bible scholars believe that there is a contradiction between Luke 24:50 and Acts 1:12. The one says that Jesus ascended into heaven from Bethany, while the other says He ascended from the Mount of Olives. There is no contradiction when one considers the "city limits" of the Sabbath day's journey. 2000 cubits (a Sabbath day's journey) is about 7-8 furlongs. The problem is that Bethany is 15 furlongs from Jerusalem (John 11:18). The Mount of Olives is between the two cities and somewhere on the mount the two "city-limits" meet. One could walk up the mount from Bethany and speak to people come from Jerusalem on a Sabbath, but one could not go from city to city (Exodus 16:29; Numbers 35:5) on the Sabbath. Therefore, Jesus did not enter Jerusalem on the Sabbath; moreover the Jews were not to burden their beasts (Deuteronomy 5:14) on the Sabbath, and Jesus rode the colt of an ass into Jerusalem. He spent the Sabbath, the 10th of Nisan (called the Great Sabbath in Jewish tradition), in Bethany.

What we refer to as the Triumphant Entry of Christ did indeed occur on what we call Palm Sunday. The fact is Jesus made no less than three entries into Jerusalem. Each time on an ass, and each time He threw out the money changers and preached to the people. The priests were positively livid by His third entry, and welcomed Judas' offer to betray Him. Incidentally, he did not decide to betray Christ until two days before the Passover (Matthew 26:2, 14-16).

The rest of your document gets one great big DITTO!!!

Have a great evening, my friend, and God bless,

John1one

Greetings asaph,

Concerning your second post (#6), if you wish to discuss inclusive reckoning, state your case. It is difficult to carry on a discussion with a link. Links are fine; I have read yours out of respect for your post, but what I read I've heard before and I am not impressed. There is so much more to the reason Christ was in the tomb for 72 hours than just arguing over three days, the third day, after three days and three days and three nights. There are certain types that Christ fulfilled by resurrecting in the end of the Sabbath day, just as the priests were harvesting the Wave Sheaf Offering to be offered at sunrise the next day. Incidentally these same sheaves were bound together on the Passover day as Christ hung on the cross. The significance of this being that Christ is the Firstfruits. Nothing could be harvested before the Wave Sheaf was bound, cut and offered. Christ was bound to the cross with nails while the priest bound the selected grain offering on Passover Day. He rose from the dead in the end of the Sabbath just as the priests were harvesting that grain, and He ascended to the Father at sunrise on Sunday morning just as that same grain offering (the Wave Sheaf Offering) was offered before the rest of the harvest could be taken in from the field. Your link spoke about Christ fulfilling the Wave Sheaf Offering, but failed to give the complete picture. Near the end of your link the author says:

Quote

"The issues here are much deeper than most people realize. Had Christ not fulfilled every single Old Testament type and shadow pointing forward to His atoning death and resurrection, He would be an imposter and fraud."

I agree with this, but the author presented nothing new to me. I have heard all this before and had to take it into consideration before adopting what I believe to be true about this issue. Incidentally, by promoting a Friday crucifixion and a Sunday resurrection, the link fails to be true to what the author says in the quote I cut and pasted above. This is not just about three days and three nights. It is about fulfilling each of the things in the Law that prefigured Christ.

Your link says that because I hold to a Wednesday crucifixion and a Sabbath resurrection that I am:

devious,
that my conclusions are grossly imaginary,
that because I do not buckle to its verbal intimidation that I am not open minded,
that I base my conclusions on the twisted interpretation of a single Bible text,
that I take all the Biblical evidence and force it into an artificial conformity with the "three days and three nights."

About the kindest thing your link says about me is that I am part of a "vocal minority of Christians who have made a tremendous issue out of the phrase 'three days and three nights.' " How the author of such a link could consider me a Christian when he assumes I am devious, grossly imaginary, closed minded, twisting the meaning of God's Word in order to force Scripture into an artificial conformity to my own views... is just beyond my comprehension. Perhaps he was just being kind when he included me as a Christian. Yet, if he was being kind, why would he call a brother devious… etc.?

Continued below

Continued to Asaph from above:

Concerning your first post (#5) I am not certain that I understand your thoughts here. Do you imply that we can throw out the proposition that the women had to have a time to both "buy" and "prepare" spices so they could anoint the body of Jesus and still not break the Sabbath? I know what your link says, but what do you say?

What of the fact that there was an earthquake at the end of the Sabbath in Matthew 28:1-2?
Matthew 28:1 In the end of the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher. 2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

Notice the words as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week. The Greek word is epiphisko (S.2020). The same word is used in Luke 23:54 for the Sabbath "drawing on." Here in Matthew 28:1 it was the end of the Sabbath (near sunset on Saturday), as the first day of the week began to "draw on" or "draw near." Again, I know what your link says, but what do you think?

Let's take a closer look at the "three days" and the "third day" with particular attention to the prepositions involved.

Matthew 26:61 "And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days." - The word translated "in" is the Greek word "dia" (S.1223). It means to pass through as in Hebrews 11:29 where the Israelites "passed through" the Red Sea. Concerning time it has the meaning of through, throughout, and during. In Acts 1:3 it has the meaning of "throughout" a 40 day period. In Hebrew 2:15 it means "during" an entire lifetime. For the three days in Matthew 26:61 it would be the entire three day period, complete days and nights, not partial. Mark 14:58 uses the same Greek word, "dia" (S.1223), but is translated "within" three days.

Matthew 27:40 "And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross." - The Greek word is "en" (S.1722) and has the meaning of resting or staying within a thing; it means in or within - as "in" a ship Matthew 4:21; "in" a synagogue Matthew 4:23. In Matthew 27:40 it means that Christ will be in the tomb "within" the parameters of three days. This Greek word is also used in Mark 15:29 and John 2:19-20 concerning the length of time Jesus would be in the tomb.

Matthew 27:63 "Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again." Here the Greek word is "meta" (S.3326) and has the meaning of after. It expresses succession of time as in "after six days…" (Matthew 17:1; Mark 9:2). Because we say "after" we should not think this must mean that it refers to a period of time after the 72 hour period is complete, because this is not how this word is used. It would mean "after" the third day had begun, but in the midst of it. Notice how it is used in Hebrews 7:28: "For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore." Meta (S.3326) here is translated "since." The oath was taken "after" the law was in effect, not after the age of the law was completed. The oath is record in Psalm 110:4, and the age of Law was certainly still in effect. Concerning the length of time Jesus was in the tomb, this same Greek word is used in (Mark 8:31).

Matthew 12:40 "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." There are no prepositions to help us here, but frankly I think it is pretty clear.

Matthew 27:64 "Command therefore that the sepulcher be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first." The Greek word for "until" is "hoes" (S.2193) and has the meaning as long as or continuance until the end of a matter. In Matthew 27:64 the guard was to stay at the tomb for the entire period mentioned by the priests.

The rest of the Scriptures concerning the "third day" are Matthew 16:21; 17:23; 20:19; Mark 9:31; 10:34; Luke 9:22; 18:33; 24:7, 21, 46; Acts 10:40 and 1Corinthians 15:4. There are no prepositions to help us in any of these Scriptures except perhaps Luke 24:21 where the disciples say that this is "the third day since these things". The Greek word here is "apo" (S.575) and means from or since. It has the sense of "from" any time onwards. Here we would have to consider the whole day (the first day of the week) because the two disciples were speaking to Jesus toward evening that day. If you count the final moments of Friday, it has the possibility to mean what you say, provided Christ rose at sunrise the first day of the week rather than sunset on the 7th day of the week as indicated by Matthew 28:1. The clause in Luke 24:21 can also refer to the third days since all those things that happened were done, but then again, according to your link, I may be very devious in how I present my case here.

All things considered Christ died and rose:

"dia" (S.1223) a full three days later,
"en" (S.1722) within the parameters of three days (i.e. no longer than 72 hours),
"meta" (S.3326) after three successive days (yet in the midst of those days),
three days and three nights later or
on the third day

If you wish to go with "tradition," asaph you are welcome to it, but I do not see how you can prove your case using the Word of God. Merely quoting the Scriptures that say "the third" day proves nothing. By itself, it can mean as you say, but when figured into the whole scheme of events that took place and all the other predictions that Christ made concerning how long He would be in the tomb, it MUST mean a literal 72 hours. But, these are just my thoughts concerning the Scriptures. I would be interested in yours, but please don't just send me to a link. This is a discussion forum. If I was interested in a study I might use a search engine and be guided to such a link as you posted. Nevertheless, I am interested in you thoughts and the adventure of a good exchange of ideas. Perhaps neither of us will fully embrace the other's point of view, but there is a certain excitement in seeing one's belief's challenged and how to respond. All this is lost on a mere "link" - don't you think?

Have a great evening and God bless,

John1one

John1one,
Thanks for the details. I know you went into a lot of work to refute the traditional view. I can't answer you on the basis of word studies because I am not a greek scholar. So I will have to stick to the english translation and hope that I can cast a reasonable doubt on the thursday and wednesday theories.

Let's begin by looking at exactly which Sabbath Day followed His passion. Was it the first day of Unleavened Bread, or the Seventh day (Saturday) Sabbath?

Luke 23:52 This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.
Luke 23:53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
Luke 23:54 And that day was the preparation [Friday], and the sabbath drew on.
Luke 23:55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
Luke 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment. [seventh day Saturday sabbath]
Luke 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week [Sunday], very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

Mark 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
Mark 16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

The women viewed the sepulchre and the body of Jesus on the preparation day (Friday evening before sunset) and then rested according to the 4th Commandment, on the Saturday Sabbath. When the Saturday Sabbath had past, the women returned to the tomb at sunrise, and that day was the first day of the week (Sunday). Clearly then, Jesus was crucified on Friday afternoon, the preparation day for the Saturday Sabbath.

This Friday preparation day is mentioned in Mat 27:62, Mk 15:42, Lk 23:54, Jn 19:14, 19:31 and 19:42. It is worth noting that "the preparation day" is apparently always used to define the day before the seventh-day Sabbath, but not a day preceding a non-seventh-day festival sabbath. The term always means what we call Friday, in both scriptural and non-scriptural usage.

In conclusion the seventh-day Sabbath was the day after the crucifixion, because the women rested that Sabbath day (Saturday) according to the fourth commandment of God. Therefore, the crucifixion had to have occurred on a Friday.

More to come.

asaph

John1one
Quote you

The rest of the Scriptures concerning the "third day" are Matthew 16:21; 17:23; 20:19; Mark 9:31; 10:34; Luke 9:22; 18:33; 24:7, 21, 46; Acts 10:40 and 1Corinthians 15:4. There are no prepositions to help us in any of these Scriptures except perhaps Luke 24:21 where the disciples say that this is "the third day since these things". The Greek word here is "apo" (S.575) and means from or since. It has the sense of "from" any time onwards. Here we would have to consider the whole day (the first day of the week) because the two disciples were speaking to Jesus toward evening that day. If you count the final moments of Friday, it has the possibility to mean what you say, provided Christ rose at sunrise the first day of the week rather than sunset on the 7th day of the week as indicated by Matthew 28:1. The clause in Luke 24:21 can also refer to the third days since all those things that happened were done, but then again, according to your link, I may be very devious in how I present my case here.

We cannot just brush away verses because they have no prepositions can we? The verses in my view do set a precidence. (spelling?)

Please allow me to quote again:

Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to show unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again *the third day*.

Mat 17:23 And they shall kill him, and *the third day* he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.

Mat 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and *the third day* he shall rise again.

Mark 9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise *the third* day.

Mark 10:34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and *the third day* he shall rise again.

Luke 9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised *the third day*.

Luke 18:33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and *the third day* he shall rise again.

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Acts 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
Acts 10:40 Him God raised up *the third day*, and showed him openly;

1 Cor 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1 Cor 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again *the third day* according to the scriptures:

Jesus was resurrected ON the third day after His death and burial, not after three literal days. If He rose after 72 hours, then all the above verses would read on the FOURTH day.

asaph

John1one,
Let's take a look at Matthew 28:1.

In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

You pointed out this verse to show that the women first came to the tomb late on the sabbath (Saturday) near sunset. Your point is quickly clarified by looking at Mark's account:

Mark 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
Mark 16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
Mark 16:3 And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?

Clearly the women came to the tomb at sunrise, finding the tomb empty. So what about the strange wording of Matthew 28:1? The explanation can be found in the division of the text into verses. The original Greek texts contain no punctuation, or chapter or verse markings. These were later added as a convenience to the reader. By merely reorganizing Matthew 27:66 and 28:1 as follows, the apparent ambiguity completely disappears:

Mat 27:62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
Mat 27:63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
Mat 27:64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.
Mat 27:65 Pilate said unto them, Ye have a watch: go your way, make it as sure as ye can.

Note that in verse 62, the request for a guard on the tomb was made on a Sabbath (the day after the preparation) and that the request was for a guard until the third day. Now, here is how the following verses should be printed:

Mat 27:66 So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch in the end of the sabbath.
Mat 28:1 As it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Note that the wording is not changed, merely the dividing point of the verses is changed by moving the period ending verse sixty-six. It was the watch guarding the tomb that began at the end of the sabbath! This shows that Matthew and Mark agree completely as to when the women came to the tomb: just before the rising of the sun at dawn, the first day of the week, Sunday.

Since Jesus was to rise the third day, the Roman guards were put in place immediately at the end of the Sabbath, because they anticipated the body being stolen by the Jews sometime on Sunday, the third (and next) day. Had they anticipated the theft on Saturday, then the guard would have been in place by Friday evening, (the preparation day).

asaph

Now let's take a look at "inclusive reckoning".

Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Mat 27:63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, *After three days* I will rise again.

Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and *after three days* rise again.

These verses are appealed to in order to propose a full 72 hours in the grave. They do seem to say a full 3 days and 3 nights don't they? How can this possibly be reconciled with the traditional chronology? If you believe the Bible cannot contradict itself, then these verses MUST be harmonized with the rest of scripture on the subject.
Well... please note the following story in 1 Kings-

1 Ki 12:5 And he said unto them, Depart yet *for three days*, then come again to me. And the people departed.

1 Ki 12:12 So Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam *the third day*, as the king had appointed, saying, Come to me again *the third day*.

The king tells the people to depart for three days, but they return ON the third day, not on the fourth!! Why? Because the king did not mean to be gone for a full 72 hours. The counting of days was inclusive in nature. The same day that the king told them to leave was the first day. The second day they stayed away, and then they returned the third day, as the king had intended. This is the exactly the same manner of counting used for the resurrection. It is inclusive in nature, with whatever portion of the first and last days being counted as full days.

Just for good measure, this same story is told in 2 Chronicles-

2 Chr 10:5 And he said unto them, Come again unto me *after three days*. And the people departed.

2 Chr 10:12 So Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam *on the third day*, as the king bade, saying, Come again to me *on the third day*.

Note the way this is worded compared to 1 Kings. Come again unto me after three days, depart yet for three days, and Come again to me on the third day, these all mean exactly the same thing, which is NOT a full three days or a full 72 hours.

Luke 13:31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.
Luke 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

Note that here in Luke 13, the third day clearly means the day after tomorrow, not after 3 full days. So, in light of all the evidence, Matt 12:40, 27:63 and Mark 8:31 do not really mean a full literal three days and nights or 72 hours, since Jesus clearly rose ON the third day. By Jewish understanding, referred to as inclusive reckoning, three days and three nights, and after three days, simply meant the same thing as ON the third day.

asaph

Greetins Asaph,
I really enjoyed reading what you have written. However, I copied your posts up to post 18 and worked from my copy off line. When I returned to post, I noticed that you also have a post 19. I will be quite busy this weekend. I may not be able to address this post before Monday. I hope you understand.

Quote Asaph

Quote

I can't answer you on the basis of word studies because I am not a greek scholar. So I will have to stick to the english translation and hope that I can cast a reasonable doubt on the thursday and wednesday theories.

I am sorry if I gave you the impression that I am a scholar. I have invested in some good "Bible helps" but nothing more than that.

Quote Asaph

Quote

Let's begin by looking at exactly which Sabbath Day followed His passion. Was it the first day of Unleavened Bread, or the Seventh day (Saturday) Sabbath?

...The women viewed the sepulchre and the body of Jesus on the preparation day (Friday evening before sunset) and then rested according to the 4th Commandment, on the Saturday Sabbath. When the Saturday Sabbath had past, the women returned to the tomb at sunrise, and that day was the first day of the week (Sunday). Clearly then, Jesus was crucified on Friday afternoon, the preparation day for the Saturday Sabbath.

This Friday preparation day is mentioned in Mat 27:62, Mk 15:42, Lk 23:54, Jn 19:14, 19:31 and 19:42. It is worth noting that "the preparation day" is apparently always used to define the day before the seventh-day Sabbath, but not a day preceding a non-seventh-day festival sabbath. The term always means what we call Friday, in both scriptural and non-scriptural usage.

In conclusion the seventh-day Sabbath was the day after the crucifixion, because the women rested that Sabbath day (Saturday) according to the fourth commandment of God. Therefore, the crucifixion had to have occurred on a Friday.

I can save a little time here by first of all admitting that the 6th day of the week is indeed a day of preparation as Exodus 16:5 makes clear. However, every Sabbath was a day of rest. No work could be done in any of the Holy Day Sabbaths either. Notice Leviticus 23:6-7. Here it is speaking of the 15th of Nisan the Feast Day of the Passover. It is a Sabbath and no work is to be done. Therefore, all the preparations that were normally done for a weekly Sabbath had to be done for this day as well. Moreover, a great deal of more work had to be done for this particular Sabbath - more than any other. All the leaven must be cast out of their houses and unleavened bread only could be eaten. Houses had to be cleaned so no bread crumbs etc could be lying around anywhere (Exodus 12:15-19). It was a big deal. Leaven was a type of evil or sin. This seven day festival celebrated the Lord leading them out of Egypt which is also a type of sin or evil. The fulfillment being that we celebrate Christ leading us out of sin, removing all our sin, casting away all that offends etc. It was a seven day Festival - eight if you include the Passover day (not a Sabbath) upon which our Lord was crucified.

That this time is also called a preparation day is made clear in 2Chronicles 35:3-8 and 16-18. Here Josiah made great preparations for the Passover so that all Israel celebrated the Feast. No Passover celebration was quite like that one even in the times of David. The Lord was really pleased with the preparations.

You quoted the last few verse of Luke and I would like to quote some of them here to ask a few questions:
Luke 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. 55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. 56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Verse-54 makes it very clear that the sun is going down and that indeed it is the day of preparation. John 19:42 shows the reason for them using Joseph's tomb is that it was so near to the place where Jesus was killed. There just wasn't time to make any arrangements for a proper burial or to select a grave site of His own.

Verse-55 clearly shows the women following those who took Jesus' body to note where they laid Him. Remember, these women were from Galilee and a few from Bethany. They didn't know where Joseph's tomb was. They had to follow.

Verse-56 makes it plain that they returned (to where - there homes and places they were staying for the Feast). Then they prepared spices and ointments, but also RESTED according to the commandment.

One thing is clear to me that when they RESTED, it was to obey the commandement to rest on the seventh day Sabbath. We are in agreement here. My questions are these:

When did they have time to prepare the spices and ointments since the sun was already setting by the time they laid Jesus in the tomb?
Moreover, where did they get the spices and ointments? It should be clear that they did not bring such things from Galilee.
Certainly by the time that they returned to their homes it was already the Sabbath. Wouldn't the places of business be closed?
Even if they were able to buy them on their way home, when could they have prepared them?

You also quoted Mark 16:1 which I will quote here as well because I have a few questions:
Mark 16:1 "And when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him."

This verse makes it clear that the women named (at least these 3) bought the spices AFTER the Sabbath.
When would they be able to buy the items they needed? The Sabbath would have continued at least until 6 PM. No Jew would be in his place of business before the Sabbath, for they were not to conduct any type of business during that day. The priests sought Jesus life because He healed on the Sabbath. Could you imagine what they might do to a Jew who was in his place of business before the Sabbath was past?

Did these places of business open during the night? Wouldn't that leave them prey for robbers? Why would they do such a thing? How much business could a person do between the hours of 7PM (at the very earliest) and say 9PM? All night stores are a modern phenomenon. When I was a child, it was a big thing if a store (usually a small grocery store) was open at 9PM.
I don't believe that any place of business that dealt with funeral arrangements would have been open after dark. Do you?

I see no reason why Mark 16:1 and Luke 23:56 shouldn't be coupled together to make it clear what had happened. I believe that this is only logical. If we do this, however, we must place a day of business between two Sabbaths. The one an annual Holy Day and the other a weekly Sabbath. But what do you say?

MORE TO COME

Continued to Asaph,
Now let's turn to what you say concerning the women coming to the tomb on the first day of the week. The Scriptures you quoted in this regard were:

Luke 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulcher, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

Mark 16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulcher at the rising of the sun.

Let's look at another to add more color to the story:
John 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulcher, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulcher.

Mary Magdalene comes to the tomb EARLY. Early when? Early in the morning or early in the evening? The Greek word is proi (S.4404) and means "early" or "early morning." Mark 1:35 speaks of Jesus rising in the morning a great while before day to pray, indicating it was still dark when He rose up in the morning. In Mark 13:35 we are told about the watches through the night; "proi" can also indicate the MORNING WATCH being the last before daybreak. The night was divided into four watches, even, midnight, cockcrowing and morning - each lasting three hours. If Mary Magdalene came to the tomb in the morning, it was sometime between 3AM and 6AM which is the last watch of the night, for we are told that she came while it was "still" or "even" dark. Nevertheless, I hope to show that Mary came rather Early on the 1st day of the week, just after sunset.

First we shall assume that all that the Bible records is in the morning of the 1st day of the week. Now notice that when Mary first came to the tomb, she did not see Jesus and thought that His body was stolen (John 1:2). She went to tell the disciples and Peter and John came to investigate the tomb. They left believing Mary's assumption that someone had taken the body of Christ (John 1:3-10). They may have been staying somewhere on Mt Olives or in the Upper Room where they last ate with Jesus.

Mary stayed outside the tomb and it wasn't until after the disciples left her at the tomb that Jesus appeared to her (John 1:11-16). It was still dark since the other women had not yet arrived; for they came at the rising of the sun (Mark 16:2-8) and had no idea that the Jesus' body was no longer there. Continuing in Mark 16:9, we see that the very first person that Jesus appeared to was Mary Magdalene and when she saw Him, immediately she returned to the disciples, this time telling them the good news.

All this, concerning Mary, was done while it was yet dark! How do I know this? I can know this because Jesus is the Wave Sheaf Offering, our Firstfruit that must be received by the Father before we can be harvested for the Kingdom of God. Notice John 20:17 where Jesus told Mary not to touch Him, for He was NOT YET ascended to His Father. This means that the Wave Sheaf was not yet offered at the Temple, which took place at 6AM (sunrise). Later in the morning Jesus permitted the women to hold onto Him (Matthew 28:9-10), making it clear that the Wave Sheaf was already offered to God to be accepted for the people and He had now returned to finish His ministry to us. They too were told to go and tell the disciples.

Returning to Matthew 28:2 - before Mary's first appearance there had been an earthquake and an angel came and removed the stone. The Roman guard was terrified. Yet, Jesus had risen even before this, because the angel only revealed an empty tomb. When did Jesus rise from the dead? He had to have risen before the morning watch (3AM - 6AM). If Mary came in the morning of the first day of the week it was during the morning watch. The stone was already removed and she didn't see the guard. They had fled before she arrived.

Moreover, time was spent going to the tomb, investigating it enough to see that Jesus was no longer there. More time was spent going to tell the disciples. More time was spent while the Peter, John and Mary returned to the tomb. More time was spent while Peter and John investigated the inside of the tomb, talked about it and probably to Mary before leaving her. Then Jesus appeared to Mary and spoke with her, saying to go and tell the disciples. All this was done while it was still dark - before sunrise and the time of the morning sacrifice which would include the Wave Sheaf Offering - the time that Jesus would ascend to the Father. How much time would have to be spent for all this to occur?

All this took time YET, Jesus rose before all this time. The angel opened the tomb before all this was done. The guards left and spoke to the chief priests before all this happened (Matthew 28:11). Do you really think the Roman guard went to see the chief priests sometime before 3AM?

Now look at the Scripture in Luke: Luke 24:10 It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. 11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not. 12 Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulcher; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass.

Mary Magdalene, remember was alone when she saw Jesus, but at least one other group of women saw Jesus a little later. They all told the disciples, but the disciples did not believe, yet Peter ran a SECOND time to view the tomb and went away wondering.

The women did not come together. Some came and told the disciples (Matthew 28:10; Luke 24:10) and some did not (Mark 16:2-8). Some came at sunrise, but Mary while it was still dark.

My point is that I believe that John 20:1 must be understood that Mary Magdalene came to the tomb early on the first day of the week just after dark. Only then does it make sense that the Roman guard went directly to the chief priests. It would have been early evening on the first day of the week (still our Saturday). Only then does all the activity of the disciples make sense. If part of the activity was in the early evening of the first day of the week and part just before and after sunrise, it seems to fit better. This would then pin point the resurrection of Jesus to just before the end of the Sabbath as the Wave Sheaf Offering was being harvested. If this is not done, then the most important event in Christian history was done in the dark, we do not know the time of day that Jesus was resurrected.

MORE TO COME

Continuted to asaph,
Concerning the third day (POST 16), I understand and admit that the day after tomorrow is the third day from now. BUT let me ask you a question. If I said that I would meet you at a specific place three days and three nights from a specific time on Friday, when would you look for me? Wouldn't Monday be the third day?

If a Jew in the New Testament times actually desired to meet with someone exactly three days and three nights from a specific time, HOW WOULD HE PHRASE IT?

I admit that partial days can be understood to mean "three days" or the "third day", but what if you really did desire to do something in 72 hours, how would you phrase it? AND Would a description like "three days" or "the third day" necessarily confuse the issue?

While I understand how two partial days and one full day can equal "three days" to someone, I do not understand why "three days" or "the third day" confuses the issue if one actually means 72 hours.

Concerning POST 18, your thoughts on Matthew 28:1 regarding "the end of the Sabbath" has really made me think. I am not certain that it can be used with the guard, but I am also not certain that it cannot either. I have never heard that before. I found it very interesting.

However, that aside, we still must consider Mary's coming to the tomb at the end of the Sabbath, because if we use this phrase "as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week" to mean sunrise, how could Mary arrive at the tomb while it was yet dark (John 20:1)? How would all the activity that took place before sunrise take place, if Mary came to the tomb at sunrise? Therefore whether you place the phrase "in the end of the Sabbath" with Matthew 27 or with Matthew 28 it makes no difference with respect to the resurrection. Mary had to have come to the tomb just after dark on the first day of the week (our Saturday evening). She found:

the stone cast aside,
the tomb empty
the guard gone
JESUS WAS RISEN!

This is how I see it. What are your thoughts, my friend?

God bless,

John1one

P.S. AS IS MENTIONED ABOVE. I DID NOT NOTICE YOUR LAST POST UNTIL NOW, BUT I MAY NOT BE ABLE TO RESPOND BEFORE MONDAY. HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND

John1one,

Quote
(When did they have time to prepare the spices and ointments since the sun was already setting by the time they laid Jesus in the tomb?
Moreover, where did they get the spices and ointments? It should be clear that they did not bring such things from Galilee.
Certainly by the time that they returned to their homes it was already the Sabbath. Wouldn't the places of business be closed?
Even if they were able to buy them on their way home, when could they have prepared them?)

more quote

(I see no reason why Mark 16:1 and Luke 23:56 shouldn't be coupled together to make it clear what had happened. I believe that this is only logical. If we do this, however, we must place a day of business between two Sabbaths. The one an annual Holy Day and the other a weekly Sabbath. But what do you say?)

You make a good point. To hold to my view I would have to speculate only. The Bible is silent on this. But let me speculate. Perhaps the women had relatives in Jerusalem or close connections with people that had all they needed. Therefore they didn't have to shop at all, but only wait for the sabbath to end. When the Sabbath did end they would have began immediately to prepare them.

Another thing I would like to mention is that, if I am correct, the 15th of Nisan landed on the 7th day Sabbath, making that day a special Sabbath; you might say a double Sabbath on the same day. A verse that I believe confirms this is John 19:31.

John 19
31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

What made it an high day is the fact that the feast of unleavened bread began on that day. The passover was the day before on the 14th of Nisan. Then there's the 16th of Nisan, the day of Firstfruits, a clear type of the resurrection day, which occurs after a sabbath day, but is not itself a Sabbath day!

asaph

John1one

Quote

(My point is that I believe that John 20:1 must be understood that Mary Magdalene came to the tomb early on the first day of the week just after dark. Only then does it make sense that the Roman guard went directly to the chief priests. It would have been early evening on the first day of the week (still our Saturday). Only then does all the activity of the disciples make sense. If part of the activity was in the early evening of the first day of the week and part just before and after sunrise, it seems to fit better. This would then pin point the resurrection of Jesus to just before the end of the Sabbath as the Wave Sheaf Offering was being harvested. If this is not done, then the most important event in Christian history was done in the dark, we do not know the time of day that Jesus was resurrected.)

Wouldn't the Wave Sheaf Offering have to be harvested after the Sabbath to avoid breaking the Sabbath?

Saturday then, if it is the resurrection day, should also be the day of Firstfruits. But this violates what is set forth in Lev. 23:11 which states that Firstfruits occurs the day after the sabbath, meaning the day after the 15 Nisan sabbath (1st day of Unleavened Bread, v.7). So, Firstfruits could not have been on Saturday, since it would clearly not be after a sabbath. So Saturday is clearly disqualified from being Firstfruits.

Let me quote Lev. 23:11

11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

Does not the sheaf waved represent Christ in resurrection? And is it not waved the day after the sabbath? You are right when you say we do not know the time of His rising, but it has to be after the Sabbath. I do not have a problem with it being done in the dark, so I am not sure what your point was on that issue.

asaph

Proposed Wednesday Crucifixion

Wednesday 14 Nisan Thursday 15 Nisan
Night-day Night-Day

Lord's Passover 1st Day of Festival
of Unleavened
Bread
A Sabbath Day
------------------------------------------------------------
Friday 16 Nisan Saturday 17 Nisan
Night-Day Night-Day

Women bring 7th Day Sabbath
spices to anoint
the body
Day of Firstfruits?? Day of Firstfruits??
Resurrection
Rested in Tomb late in the day
before sunset
------------------------------------------------------------
Sunday 18 Nisan
Night- Day

The Third Day??
(Luke 24:21)

Day of Firstfruits??

Tomb discovered
to be empty
at dawn (there abouts)

Now remember that 14 nisan is Passover, 15 Nisan is old corn and unleavened bread eaten, and 16 Nisan is when Manna ceased and Fruits of Canaan eaten.

The resurrection takes place at some time after the beginning of the day (at sunset) but before the morning sunrise. Just exactly when after sunset the resurrection took place is uncertain, but that it happened on what we today call Sunday is really quite clear as Luke 24 showed, but here is more evidence-

1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the Firstfruits of them that slept.

So just how does this verse relate?-

Lev 23:10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the Firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
Lev 23:11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

The wave sheaf represented the first fruits of the resurrection, the Messiah (1 Cor 15:20), and the day it was presented was the day AFTER the Sabbath as Lev 23:11 just proved. (The Sabbath meant here is 15 Nisan/Abib, the first day of Unleavened Bread [Lev 23:6-7]). Clearly then, since the first day of Unleavened Bread coincided with the Seventh day Sabbath that year, the resurrection of Jesus (the first fruits), happened on 16 Nisan/Abib the day AFTER the double or high Sabbath, on the first day of the week, Sunday. (Because it represents the resurrection, the day of Firstfruits must clearly occur on the third day after the crucifixion [14 Nisan], to fulfill scripture.)

For even more evidence that the commonly accepted chronology is correct, one must really understand the principle of type and antitype. The sequence of days to be observed for Passover was set down in scripture as the "type". This sequence was symbolic of what was to come when the crucifixion of the Lamb of God actually took place, which is the "antitype". So the type and antitype must match precisely:

14 Nisan, the Lord's Passover is the type of the crucifixion day.
15 Nisan, 1st day of Unleavened Bread, is the second day.
16 Nisan, Firstfruits, is a type of the resurrection, and the third day.
An example of Israel keeping this precise scenario is found in the book of Joshua:

Josh 5:10 And the children of Israel encamped in Gilgal, and kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the month at even in the plains of Jericho.
Josh 5:11 And they did eat of the old corn of the land on the morrow after the passover, unleavened cakes, and parched corn in the selfsame day.
Josh 5:12 And the manna ceased on the morrow after they had eaten of the old corn of the land; neither had the children of Israel manna any more; but they did eat of the fruit of the land of Canaan that year.

The chart above shows that a wednesday crucifixion does not fit the type revealed in the OT.

asaph

Greetings Asaph,
I hope you had a good weekend. Let's see where we are in our discussion: INCLUSIVE RECKONING Post 19:

Concerning the "three days and three nights" of Matthew 12:40 and the "after three days" of Matthew 27:68 and Mark 8:31 you said:

QUOTE ASAPH:

Quote

These verses are appealed to in order to propose a full 72 hours in the grave. They do seem to say a full 3 days and 3 nights don't they? How can this possibly be reconciled with the traditional chronology? If you believe the Bible cannot contradict itself, then these verses MUST be harmonized with the rest of scripture on the subject.

These Scriptures cannot be reconciled with traditional chronology - not without redefining them. While one can say that "three days and three nights" are THREE DAYS or their fulfillment can be referred to as the THIRD DAY, they cannot be referred to as "the day after tomorrow."

Yes, I do believe the Bible cannot contradict itself and therefore it is my (our) responsibility to read it in such a way that Scripture is harmonized without doing damage to what the words say. In other words, I MUST NOT redefine a phrase so it agrees with another phrase of Scripture. I must find out how they agree without imposing my own prejudices upon the Scripture.

QUOTE ASAPH

Quote

Well... please note the following story in 1 Kings-

1 Ki 12:5 And he said unto them, Depart yet *for three days*, then come again to me. And the people departed.

1 Ki 12:12 So Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam *the third day*, as the king had appointed, saying, Come to me again *the third day*.

The king tells the people to depart for three days, but they return ON the third day, not on the fourth!! Why? Because the king did not mean to be gone for a full 72 hours. The counting of days was inclusive in nature. The same day that the king told them to leave was the first day. The second day they stayed away, and then they returned the third day, as the king had intended. This is the exactly the same manner of counting used for the resurrection. It is inclusive in nature, with whatever portion of the first and last days being counted as full days.

Just for good measure, this same story is told in 2 Chronicles-

2 Chr 10:5 And he said unto them, Come again unto me *after three days*. And the people departed.

2 Chr 10:12 So Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam *on the third day*, as the king bade, saying, Come again to me *on the third day*.

Note the way this is worded compared to 1 Kings. Come again unto me after three days, depart yet for three days, and Come again to me on the third day, these all mean exactly the same thing, which is NOT a full three days or a full 72 hours.

There is nothing here said of "inclusive reckoning." Using our time frame for easy reference, the king could have said on Monday, "Depart from me for three days" or "Come to me 'after three days' " and if the people came to him on Thursday it would be just as the king requested. THERE IS NOTHING HERE THAT SAYS IT MEANS THE DAY AFTER TOMORROW!

QUOTE ASAPH

Quote

Luke 13:31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.
Luke 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

Note that here in Luke 13, the third day clearly means the day after tomorrow, not after 3 full days. So, in light of all the evidence, Matt 12:40, 27:63 and Mark 8:31 do not really mean a full literal three days and nights or 72 hours, since Jesus clearly rose ON the third day. By Jewish understanding, referred to as inclusive reckoning, three days and three nights, and after three days, simply meant the same thing as ON the third day.

This is true, but how would you define "after 6 days" of Matthew 17:1 and Mark 9:2? Is it 4 days? Is it 5days? OR Is it just as it appears - 6 full 24 hour days?

The answer is: 6 full 24-hour days! There can be no question! How can I know that for sure? Well Luke 9:28 describes the same event saying "And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray." Here Luke says ABOUT eight days. He is speaking of two actual partial days, but 6 full days. Matthew and Mark speak of only the WHOLE DAYS. Luke describes a time just before sunset being the 1st day, + 6 full days + a few hours after sunset and when the disciples were sleeping (the second partial day). WHERE IS THE INCLUSIVE RECKONING IN MATTHEW AND MARK?

How do you know for certain that inclusive reckoning MUST be the defining principle concerning the time Jesus spent in the tomb? Throw out "tradition" and just use the Bible. If the tradition is true, the Bible with prove it. The Word of God should define tradition. TRADITION should NEVER define the Word of God!

MORE TO COME

Continued to asaph,
Concerning POST #24 and my coupling Mark 16:1 and Luke 23:56 saying that there must have been two Sabbaths and a day of business between them during Passover week that year, you said:

QUOTE ASAPH

Quote

You make a good point. To hold to my view I would have to speculate only. The Bible is silent on this. But let me speculate. Perhaps the women had relatives in Jerusalem or close connections with people that had all they needed. Therefore they didn't have to shop at all, but only wait for the sabbath to end. When the Sabbath did end they would have began immediately to prepare them.Another thing I would like to mention is that, if I am correct, the 15th of Nisan landed on the 7th day Sabbath, making that day a special Sabbath; you might say a double Sabbath on the same day. A verse that I believe confirms this is John 19:31.John 1931 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.What made it an high day is the fact that the feast of unleavened bread began on that day. The passover was the day before on the 14th of Nisan. Then there's the 16th of Nisan, the day of Firstfruits, a clear type of the resurrection day, which occurs after a sabbath day, but is not itself a Sabbath day!

Speculation: they acquired the spices etc. from friends or relatives in the area.
The Word of God says in Mark 16:1 that Mary Magdalene, and Mary the Mother of James, and Salome - all three BOUGHT the spices AFTER THE SABBATH.

Concerning your thoughts about the "high day" mentioned in John 19:31 concerns the historical importance of the Passover Holy Day. The Greek word is megas (S.3173). It is used 195 times in the New Testament and is translated "great" 150 times; "loud" 33 times; and miscellaneous (which includes "high") only 12 times. It does not mean that there were two Sabbaths together, though that did occur from time to time. The Jews did not want the bodies hanging on the crosses, because it would have been an embarrassment to them as a nation. On the one hand they were celebrating becoming a nation, being brought out of slavery by their God and on the other hand Pilate wrote above the head of Jesus "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews" in three languages. The Jews would have done almost anything to have the legs broken and removed from the hill.

As for the 16th of Nisan, it has no religious significance unless in the course of time the 15th of Nisan does land on the 7th day Sabbath. Then the 16th of Nisan is the First day of the Weeks; i.e. the first day of the count toward Pentecost or FEAST OF WEEKS in the Bible. BTW This is what all these Scriptures, regarding the testimony after the resurrection of Christ in the New Testament, are referring to. The clause "first day of the week" is only secondarily a reference to the 1st day of the week. Wave Sheaf was always offered (not on the 16th, but on the day after the 7th day Sabbath which fell in Passover Week. Using it we count to Pentecost - 50 days (see Leviticus 23).

MORE TO COME

Continued to asaph,
Concerning POST # 25 and my saying that the WAVE SHEAF Offering was harvested on the Sabbath, you asked:

QUOTE ASAPH

Quote

Wouldn't the Wave Sheaf Offering have to be harvested after the Sabbath to avoid breaking the Sabbath?

NOT NECESSARILY - All of what the priest did on the Sabbath, technically broke the Sabbath, but they were blameless as Christ said in Matthew 12:5 "Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the Sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?"

I thought I read in one of my Bible helps that the Wave Sheaf was cut in ceremonial fashion while the sun was still going down on the Sabbath, but I cannot find what I thought I read. I must, therefore, merely quote Matthew 12:5 concerning the priests profaning the Sabbath, and yet being blameless. I hope to prove the hour of Christ's resurrection, using additional Scripture elsewhere.

QUOTE ASAPH

Quote

Saturday then, if it is the resurrection day, should also be the day of Firstfruits. But this violates what is set forth in Lev. 23:11 which states that Firstfruits occurs the day after the sabbath, meaning the day after the 15 Nisan sabbath (1st day of Unleavened Bread, v.7). So, Firstfruits could not have been on Saturday, since it would clearly not be after a sabbath. So Saturday is clearly disqualified from being Firstfruits. Let me quote Lev. 23:1111 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

agree that the Wave Sheaf Offering represents ChristI. It was offered during the time of the morning Sacrifice (6AM) on the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEKS, which always landed on a Sunday (our time). It was the first day counting toward the FEAST OF WEEKS or our Pentecost. If it represented Christ's resurrection, then Christ would have risen at 6AM on the FIRST OF THE WEEKS at the very time of the offering, just as He died on the cross at the very time of the slaying of the PASSOVER LAMB. The Wave Sheaf Offering represents our heavenly Father formally ACCEPTING the sacrifice of Christ. Christ represents the harvest of men (Romans 16:11; 1Corinthinans 15:20-23). The harvest (SALVATION) cannot continue until the Wave Sheaf Offering is made and accepted by God.

It is my contention that Christ rose at the time of the harvesting of the bundles of barley grain that was used for the Wave Sheaf Offering, but I am unable at present to prove to you that the barley grain used by the priests was indeed harvested on the Sabbath. The Bible, itself, is silent on this matter, at least I have never found a verse that refers to the harvesting of the grain used in the offering of the Wave Sheaf.

QUOTE ASAPH

Quote

Does not the sheaf waved represent Christ in resurrection? And is it not waved the day after the sabbath? You are right when you say we do not know the time of His rising, but it has to be after the Sabbath. I do not have a problem with it being done in the dark, so I am not sure what your point was on that issue.

No, to your first question; yes, to your second question (as explained above). I believe that we DO KNOW the time of the resurrection. I believe it is between 5PM & 6PM on the 7th day Sabbath falling within the 8 day Passover Festival.

Concerning my point about the dark, I was using the word metaphorically. Neither would I mind if Christ rose at night. What I meant by "dark" is that we don't know the hour of Christ's resurrection, if we hold to the traditional viewpoint. Yet, this is the most important event in Christian history. It seems to me, that God would have made that pretty clear somewhere in His Word. Everything else in Christ's life is detailed pretty well. Why shouldn't we know the hour of Christ's resurrection? It is only obscure if we adopt a Friday crucifixion.

MORE TO COME

P.S. Just to clarify: the Wave Sheaf does represent the resurrected Christ, but not the resurrection itself. The resurrected Christ was formally received by God in the Wave Sheaf offering. Our Heavenly Father formally accepted His sacrifice at that time.

Continued to asaph,
Concerning the clause “as it began to dawn” toward the first day of the week (Matthew 28:1) in POST #27, you said:

QUOTE ASAPH:

Quote

"As it began to dawn" Does not have to mean the sun was peeking over the hill. I do not think this is meant to be a precise phrase indicating an exact moment. It could mean any time prior to sunrise yet with time enough allowed for Jesus to rise after the Sabbath. In order to be the antitype of the wave sheaf offering, Jesus would have to rise on Sunday, the Day after the Sabbath. I was not there so I can't fill in the details. Only God Knows.

The same Greek word is used in Luke 23:54 “And that day was the preparation, and the Sabbath DREW ON.” The Greek word is epiphosko (S.2020). It means to “grow light” or “dawn” “drawn on” i.e. something begins or approaches. It is used in Luke 23:54 to indicate that the Sabbath was so close that Jesus had to be buried in a borrowed tomb (John 19:42). I do not believe Matthew 28:1 can be used to indicate “sunrise” or the “beginning of the light” part of the day for several reasons:

First, because there was so much activity by the women and the disciples that took place before sunrise. Therefore, Matthew 28:1 “as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week” must indicated the end of the Sabbath (sunset) as the First Day of the Weeks was DRAWING ON (just like it is used in Luke 23:54).
Furthermore, the truth of the clause can be seen in the preposition “toward.” In the Greek it eis (S.1519) meaning “into” something. The sense is going from one place “into” or “toward” another. For example: Matthew 2:12 “And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.” Notice that Joseph and Mary departed from the area around Jerusalem to go INTO their own country of Galilee. Another example: Matthew 15:11 “Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.” Here Christ is explaining what does and does not defile man. Man is not defiled by putting something (food) INTO his body.

If you wish to study this on your own, there is an abundant of Scripture containing this preposition. It is used over 1700 times in the New Testament. A few random choices should be enable you or anyone else to prove whether this is so or not. In any event, “as it began to dawn TOWARD the First Day of the Weeks” must mean during the final moments of the Sabbath day. The time line is being described as being in one day and going INTO another.
This being so, the tomb was empty. How do we know this? Because Mary Magdalene never came to anoint the body of Jesus. She and the “other Mary” (presumably Martha’s sister), came to the tomb at this time because of the earthquake. They came as the Word of God says, “to SEE the sepulcher.” They were interested in what the earthquake might have done. Everyone else came at or near sunrise with the spices they had bought and prepared on Friday, the day between the Sabbaths that year (Matthew 28:5-9; Mark 16:2-8; Luke 24:1-9).
Finally, I do not believe that the Roman guard would have gone into the city between midnight and 3AM and awakened the chief priests to tell them about what had happened. Just after sundown would be more likely for such a circumstance. The chief priest would still have been in the Temple area just after the evening sacrifices had been completed.

MORE TO COME

Continued to asaph,

In POST 28# you expressed a few more thoughts:
QUOTE ASAPH:

Quote

"I have an afterthought about John 20:1.

John 20
1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

It's about the phrase, "when it was yet dark." It seems to me that this implies there was darkness for some time before she came to the sepulchre and that sunrise was approaching. Otherwise why would John say that? It would have made more sense to say, "when darkness fell" or "when evening came", if he was refering to the moments just after sunset on Saturday."

The Greek word translated "yet" is eti (S.2089). Concerning its use to describe time it means a condition that formerly was so and is now in a different state; i.e. it was light and it is now dark or visa versa: it was dark and it is now light. I can also mean a condition continues at present; i.e. it was dark and continues to be dark.

It can therefore mean just as you say, however, this would no longer fit the Scripture: Matthew 28:1 where Mary was coming at sunset. See above.

Concerning your chart in POST #29, the day of Firstfruits does not have to be on the 16th of Nisan. It occurs on the 16th only when there is a double Sabbath during the Passover Festival. Notice Leviticus 23. There is a controversy over whether the Sabbath mentioned in Leviticus 23:11 means a 7th day Sabbath or Nisan 15, the Passover Holy Day Sabbath. The Sadducees and the literalistic Karaites believe it to be the 7th day Sabbath. The rabbis believe it to be the Feast of Unleavened Bread (Nisan 15) [reference The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible; "Weeks, Feast of"]. If the Sadducees are correct then the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEKS always falls on our Sunday. This is the method Christians use to count to Pentecost. If the rabbis are correct, then the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEKS always falls on the 16th of Nisan.

My thoughts about the reasoning of the rabbis is this: if the day always falls on the 16th, why must we count to find out what day the Feast of Weeks (or Pentecost) is? If it is always the 16th of the first month, the Feast of Weeks or Pentecost will always be the 7th of the 3rd month. Why count at all? In fact each and every other Festival is dated as to the 1st; 10th; 14th; 15th; 21st or 22nd of the month. The Word of God singles out the Feast of Weeks or Pentecost and does not give its date, but instead says count seven Sabbaths + 1 day to come to this particular Festival. This makes sense only if Pentecost is always on a Sunday with a varying date.

Moreover, with a Friday crucifixion, 6 days before the Feast, Nisan 15, would be Sunday or what we consider the triumphant entry. If this is so, the day before was a Sabbath. Jesus would not have been able to leave Jericho (John 12:1). The distance between Jericho and Jerusalem is about 18 miles. There is no record of Jesus resting before He came to Jerusalem. What are your thoughts?

Have a great evening my friend, and God bless you,

John1one

Quote from: John1one on April 29, 2003, 02:01:23 AM

Quote

John1one,
Then what does the third day mean to you how do you define it. Many passages say He rose the third day.

asaph

Greetings asaph,
Blessings to you today. In POST #35 you asked

QUOTE ASAPH:

Quote

John1one,
Then what does the third day mean to you how do you define it. Many passages say He rose the third day.

I believe "the third day" can be expressed "in three days and three nights" or anytime "the day after tomorrow." It would depend upon the context or the definition placed upon the clause by the speaker. My only contention with others' definition of "the third day" is that most will not permit the definition to include "three days and three nights" or a full 72 hours. If you were a 1st century Jew, how would you express 72 hours into the future? MUST you say "in four days" or "on the fourth day" to define 72 hours? Clearly, 72 hours is three days. My own opinion is that the definers of "the third day" use Luke 13:31-33 in the same manner in which they would accuse me of using Matthew 12:40. Rather than let the more definitive Scripture define the more obscure, tradition has done the reverse. Clearly "three days and three nights" is more descriptive than "three days" or "the third day." In Luke 13:31-33 Jesus is NOT speaking about His death and burial, but He is speaking about His death and burial in Matthew 12:40. Which Scripture do you believe should be used to define "the third day" as it pertains to the length of time Jesus would spend in the grave?

1Samuel 13:12, 13 places two of the clauses side by side. "Three days ago" = "three days and three nights." It is beyond my understanding to figure out any other way to say 72 hours. Certainly in their 3000 year history the Jews had to have needed to describe 72 hours or three actual days and three actual nights. How did they do it? How can one say that "the third day" CANNOT mean "three days and three nights?"

QUOTE ASAPH:

Quote

My thoughts,
The verse in John 12:1 says:

1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.

It says 6 days before the passover, not the feast. The feast of unleavened bread began the day after passover. So the days counted were Saturday thru Thursday. This would allow Jesus to come to Bethany on Friday.

First of all, every other reference to the time before the Passover in the Gospels refers to the FEAST DAY or SABBATH of the Passover. Notice Matthew 26:2, 5; Mark 14:1-2 where mention is made of two days before the feast of the Passover, and specific mention is made of the Feast Day being special. Then again in Matthew 26:17 and Mark 14:12 mention is made concerning one day before the Passover and Mark says that this particular day is when the Passover lamb was slain. This reference is of the evening or beginning of the 14th day of Nisan, because at the daylight portion or the end of the day, Jesus was slain at the exact time the Passover lamb was slain. Nevertheless, six days before the Passover can technically mean what you say, but it would be out of the character of the other references.

MORE TO COME

Continued to asaph,

Secondly, if it did mean Saturday, we must then ask: when did Jesus rest? It is plain that He went to Jerusalem BEFORE He went to Bethany for He came from Jericho to Jerusalem and from Jerusalem to Bethany (Luke 19:1, 28-29). Notice that Jesus never left the mount while the disciples went and took the colt. Then Jesus proceeded to ride the colt (couldn't be a Sabbath - Deuteronomy 5:14) and went into Jerusalem.

Indeed Jesus did come up from Jericho on Friday, six days before the Passover Feast day (or Sabbath). He came from Jericho and entered Jerusalem. This was His first entry and no one in the city knew who He was (Matthew 21:10). The whole city was moved at His coming, but the pilgrims didn't know who Jesus was. After He threw the money changers out of the Temple and taught awhile, He left for Bethany (Matthew 21:17; Mark 11:11) when evening approached. There they made a supper for Him (John 12:1-2). This was the evening of the sixth day before the Passover (John 12:1). This was not the day He rested. But He rested at Bethany in the home of His friend Lazarus on the 10th day of the month, the day the Jews were to choose the Passover Lamb. For the next five days this Lamb was inspected for blemishes - first by the Pharisees and Herodians (Matthew 22:15-22); then the Sadducees (Matthew 22:23-33); then the scribes or lawyers (Matthew 34:-46), but none found fault not even with false witnesses (Mark 14:56; Luke 23:4, 14; John 18:38; 19:4, 6).

I must conclude that He rested on the Sabbath, the 5th day before the Passover (Feast Day). Why do I say this? Notice what Jesus does when He enters Jerusalem from Bethany. He first "finds" the colt (John 12:14). It was not tied up waiting for Him as before. It too was resting. Then He heads toward Jerusalem and the whole city (Jerusalem) comes out to meet Him, because they found out He was coming (John 12:12-13). At this time Mark helps John's account with more detail. Notice He is coming from Bethany not Jericho (Mark 11:12) and desires to eat a fig from a tree (Mark 11:13). He finds none and curses the tree (Mark 11:14), then He entered Jerusalem and cast out the money changers from the Temple for a second time in three days (Mark 11:15). This is the "Triumphant entry" and not the one recorded in Matthew or Luke. In Matthew they did not know who He was (Matthew 21:10). In John 12:12 the news of Jesus coming to Jerusalem had reached the folks there and they went out to meet Him. They heard from the locals that Jesus had raised Lazarus from the dead only a few weeks prior (John 12:17-18). There was such a commotion that the priests and Pharisees feared that the whole nation of the Jews scattered throughout the world would be behind Him (John 12:19). This was indeed the Triumphant entry and four days before the Passover Feast Day.

Nevertheless there is an additional entry on the day following the triumphant entry and the cursing of the fig tree (Mark 11:20, 27). Notice that in Luke 19:39-40 that the Pharisees became upset with Jesus that the disciples were praising Him as Messiah. This was done in the Temple, after His entry on Friday - the sixth day before the Passover Feast (Matthew 21:15-16). Therefore Luke is recording an additional entry, though it appears to be only one. Notice as well that Luke records that Jesus wept over the city, saying that they had not known the hour of their visitation (Luke 19:41-44). Clearly the leadership had rejected His being Messiah by criticizing the disciples praise (Matthew 21:15-16). Nevertheless, on that first entry the people were innocent. They didn't know who Jesus was (Matthew 21:10-11). The fact is, the multitude came out to meet Jesus for His second and triumphant entry (John 12:12-13). However, when they asked to speak privately with Jesus (John 12:20-21), and when He told them that He must die to save them (John 12:32-33), they responded with great disappointment asking who is this Son of man or Messiah (John 12:34). My point here is to show why Jesus wept in Luke 19:41. He wept because no one from the city came out to meet Him on that day. This third entry shows that the people also rejected Him as Messiah. Why would He have wept during the triumphant entry? Why would He say that He was rejected before everyone did reject Him? There must therefore have been at least three entries. This would have been three days before the Passover.

The second day before the Feast Day, He spent at Simon's home (Matthew 26:6) and one day before the Passover is recorded in Matthew 26:17. The Holy Spirit has seen fit to show us where Jesus was and what He was doing in each of the 7-8 days before the Passover Feast Day (two spent passing through and lodging in Jericho). This is true ONLY for a Wednesday crucifixion. A Friday and Thursday crucifixion cannot give an accurate agenda of the final week of Christ's earthly life.

QUOTE ASAPH:

Quote

The rest of your posts were very thought provoking. If it were not for the many scriptures that say He rose the third day, I might go for it. Any way your posts are appreciated and I will wait patiently for the time when we will know for sure what happened.

Asaph, you are a true gentleman. I appreciate your manner. I hold to some non-traditional Christian view points - not of Christ, not of the Godhead - but in other areas. Some people do not consider me a Christian, because I don't agree with them and they have no Scriptures to counter what I say. I can respect the viewpoint of others. We all arrive at what we believe through much inward struggle, but you are the first to disagree with me who has shown any respect at all for what I think. Thank you.

Concerning an earlier post I had written to A4C, you said:

QUOTE ASAPH

Quote

I say, amen!

My friend, I am indeed overwhelmed. No one has ever received what I said about that Scripture. It too is a non-traditional point of view. I am used to rebuke and outright attack. I wish we lived in the same neighborhood.

God bless you and your family,

John1one

John1one,
To quote you-
No one has ever received what I said about that Scripture. It too is a non-traditional point of view. I am used to rebuke and outright attack. I wish we lived in the same neighborhood.

That is a sad commentary on the people of God. I don't know anyone personally who agrees with a lot of things I see from the scriptures. That's ok but to be suspicious and closed minded over these things even in the face of overwhelming evidence really rubs me the wrong way. But if we are committed to loving them in Christ a lot of sins will be avoided and a multitude covered over.

To get back to Peters sermon at pentecost, speaking of David not being resurrected yet, could it be possible that David was'nt included in the number that came out of their graves after Jesus rose? Look at how the Matthew passage words it:

Matthew 27
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The key words are "many bodies." Therefore David did not neccessarily have to be in that number. My thinking is that David will rise at the coming of Jesus.

1 Cor 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Those that came out of their tombs after Jesus was raised would be a part of the sheaf waved, after all a sheaf is a bundle. For whatever reason, God did not include David in that number.

Just a thought.

Well, you pretty much stated your case very well on a Wednesday Passion, but a have a lot of pride to overcome so I am not yet ready to concede. Pray for me brother. ;)

asaph

Greetings asaph,
QUOTE ASAPH:

Quote

That is a sad commentary on the people of God. I don't know anyone personally who agrees with a lot of things I see from the scriptures. That's ok but to be suspicious and closed minded over these things even in the face of overwhelming evidence really rubs me the wrong way. But if we are committed to loving them in Christ a lot of sins will be avoided and a multitude covered over.

Perhaps I responded to you in a manner that gave you the wrong idea. When I said that I am used to rebuke and outright attack, I was speaking of when I am clear concerning a position I take that is not the traditional point of view. I don't remember anyone treating me badly, if I merely disagreed with them in the same manner that denominations disagree with one another.

Concerning the Wednesday crucifixion and Christ's response to the thief, both of these subjects are non-traditional Christianity. What some refer to as cults would agree with the position I have taken with them. I believe that this is why at times some will rebuke me, because they think I am taking a position of a cult and speaking against Christianity. It is more of a misunderstanding than anything else. Actually, in the beginning, I thought you were going to take that position when you posted the link. I was pleasantly surprised when you never mentioned it again and just spoke from your heart.

I did leave a board once because I was accused of not being a Christian. I had spoken about a subject that had been debated by the early Church fathers, but I had taken the minority position. Consequently, I was rebuked by one man in a manner that I found unreasonable. I did not wish to attack him as I felt he had done to me. I was embarrassed, because I knew others whom I respected on the forum were reading what was being said. I left the forum.

QUOTE ASAPH:

Quote

To get back to Peters sermon at pentecost, speaking of David not being resurrected yet, could it be possible that David was'nt included in the number that came out of their graves after Jesus rose? Look at how the Matthew passage words it:

Matthew 27
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The key words are "many bodies." Therefore David did not neccessarily have to be in that number. My thinking is that David will rise at the coming of Jesus.

I have heard several positions about these verses. One position is that a number of people were resurrected to a natural life and were seen by many who knew them and were thus a witness to the Resurrection of Christ.

Considering the uproar that resulted in raising Lazarus, I have to decline this position. There is nothing in history to support this, which certainly would have to be addressed if "many" were resurrected.

I have heard your point of view before as well, but for the life of me, I do not understand why David would remain in the grave while others were resurrected. While God is sovereign and can do as He pleases, nothing in Scripture would indicate a partial resurrection. "MANY" is used for "ALL" in Romans 5:15 "But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one (Adam) many be dead..."

QUOTE ASAPH:

Quote

1 Cor 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Those that came out of their tombs after Jesus was raised would be a part of the sheaf waved, after all a sheaf is a bundle. For whatever reason, God did not include David in that number.

I have to be quite literal here. I do not believe that anyone could be a part of the sheaf or bundle of grain that was offered to God. First of all, no one could be resurrected until that offering was accepted by God. The entire Wave Sheaf Offering represented Christ, for only Christ ascended into heaven to be ACCEPTED by our heavenly Father.

The Scripture above says that Christ (no implications of anyone else) is the first fruits, and afterward we who are His will be resurrected when He returns.

QUOTE ASAPH:

Quote

Well, you pretty much stated your case very well on a Wednesday Passion, but a have a lot of pride to overcome so I am not yet ready to concede. Pray for me brother.

You didn't even have to ask, brother. I covet your prayers as well. My faith at one time was overcome by a man. I was only a young man at the time, but it has changed me forever. After leaving the man, I backslid from Christ as well. When I returned to God I vowed to Him never to trust a man again. I qualified that saying I would receive anything He gave me through His children, but unless I understood it, I would not accept it. Consequently, I am more argumentative than I need to be. I have been working on this in my walk with Christ, but I have a great way to go before I would consider that my attitude is like His. Thank you for the discussion. I appreciated it more than I can explain. Thank you for your prayers. You are a good friend and brother in Christ.

God bless,

John1one

After everything has been said and done on this thread;

How is it, you who believe Jesus was crucified wednesday or thrusday, reconcile the scriptures, herein with this opinion.

Luke 24
1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
13 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
17 And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?
18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?
19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
22 Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;
23 And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.
24 And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

Please note, verse 21, especially extra carefully.

"today is the thrid day", speaking of TODAY as in the "first day of the week" in verse 1.

Are the scriptures wrong?? at this passage..

Blessings,
Petro

Now here is a clue.

Mat 27
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
55 And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him:
56 Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children.
57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:
58 He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered.
59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,
60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.
61 And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre.
62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.
65 Pilate said unto them, Ye have a watch: go your way, make it as sure as ye can.
66 So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch.

Note verse 62;

What is so difficult to believe, the next day following the day of preparation which would have been the Sabaath, would find these two women, sitting over against the sepulchre??

I would assume many would visit the tombs of their loved ones on the day of rest, or was walking to the burial places against the Law?

Assuming Jesus was crucified on Friday..

The setting of the guard obviously didn't not happen the same night Jesus first laid in the tomb, it was set the following day, according to this passge..

I just see, problems for the idea, proposed Jesus was crucified on any other day but Friday,

The reason,..................In on account of Lk 24:21 "to day is the third day"

Matching it perfectly to the prophecy,

Jesus died about the 9th hour, was buried before sundown, this then would be the First day, spending all night and day of the Sabaath, for the 2d day, and rising early the morning of Sunday (the first day of the week) the 3rd day.

Thus accounting for three days and three nights, in nthe tomb.

Your attention is called to;

Mk 16
9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week,................

To give the Greek flavor to this verse; her is the translation

Now having risen early [the] first [day] of the week,.................

This destroys any notion one might have that, Jesus rose, before the 1st day of the week..

Blessings,

Petro

Now here is the final verses which put this matter to rest once and for all.

Mk 15
37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.
39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.
40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;
41 (Who also, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto him;) and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem.
42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,
43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.

Add that verse above to the one I have already presented, and you've got the end of all discussion..

Mat 27
59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,
60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.
61 And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre.
62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,

Now, there is no more need to speculate, if anyone should ever ask;

When was JESUS crucified?? , the answer will always be, FRIDAY , the day of preparation..which is the day before the Sabaath.

Blessings,
Petro

ChristiansUnite Forums

Theology => Apologetics => Topic started by: Sower on April 17, 2003, 12:30:08 PM