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Hi folks.  I've found that this is a nice place to talk theology (if you keep your nose clean, which I must admit I can have trouble with sometimes).  Anyway, I've done a bit of reading around here, and I've come to appreciate the diversity in views on different topics, etc...

So here's something I've been discussing with friends lately:  Joel Osteen and his prosperity gospel.  Is the concept of "if you do good, God'll do good to you (with financial wealth, happiness, health, etc...)" a sound theological doctrine?  Lately I've been watching a lot of his sermons online, because rumor has it he heads the largest church in America.  What I saw worried me, quite frankly.  There wasn't too much about Jesus or forgiveness or the Gospel.  Most of the content dealt with living a good, decent, capitalist life in this world.  And that's fine...but is that what should be spoken about in church?  I don't expect to come to church for self-help or goofy stories.  I come to hear the Word of God and commune with others.  The whole concept of a "mega-church" seems a little off-kilter to me, as well.  So that's up for discussion, too.  This thread is fair game. 

And of course, if we need examples/proof of some of Joel's wackier and more questionable statements, I'll be happy to provide them.  And of course, there's wackier people out there (Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, etc...) but Joel seems to be in the public eye a lot these days, and even seems to represent Christianity.  I'm a little frightened by that. 

And if this topic has already been talked to death, forgive me. 

Hi So Says I,

First let me say that if Joel Osteen is half as nice as he seems on TV, then he is about 10 times nicer than I am.  He seems like a great guy and from the surface, it looks like the Lord is blessing his ministry.  However, I agree with your concerns.  One can't help but to think that Joel is heading up what some would call a seeker sensitive church.  Joel is an expert at encouraging people, as he has said from time to time "You've had a tough week, you don't want to come here and get more depressed, you need encouragement."

The problem with that can be compared to "too much candy, not enough meat and veggies".

I very rarely hear the gospel in his messages.  I don't hear him speak about sin.  I hear a lot of motivational speaking.   I do believe that Joel's messages at least sparks an interest in God that some wouldn't necessarily be open to had they heard it anywhere else.  I know many nonbelievers who say to me "no, I don't go to church, but sometimes I listen to that guy on TV, Joel something....I like him."  I think they like him because there is no conviction in his messages, and therefore no need for change. 

I believe that we all need some encouragement, but what good does encouragement here on earth mean if I'm dying and going to hell?  "one charge I give you", Paul told Timothy, "preach the word."  Is Joel doing that?  I would say that his message and the message of those who do not specifically call out a need for Jesus Christ is incomplete. 

Hope no one is offended, I promise to be open to all opinions as you have been open to mine.

Greetings Brother's -- About Joel

   Yes, I too, have had some thoughts in that area, but as you said God is blessing his ministry. But I have heard him preach too, he says that "This my Bible" thing which I know by heart. He always locks into the Word, from what I have heard, I also listen to him on the net. And when he is done with the broadcast he always gives that call to Christ, and prays for them to find a Gospel based Church. It's a simply prayer, but he makes the call, the rest is up to their choice and the Father.
  But I don't agree with them ministries that make the Father as to the likes of a gum machine. Blessing's by the worlds standards maybe in materialism,  but, Paul mentioned about being content, that's how I govern my walk. If He blesses me, blessed be His name, if not, Blessed be His name. I'm already blessed by what Jesus did on the cross. He gives and takes away, but I do see ministries not going into that part of the Gospel, which is to "Carry the Cross". It's as if you see a pick out what will tickle the ears and instead of the Word, touching one's heart. There's not a perfect church or ministry, or however you want to call a gathering of the Saints, to worship and be taught.
   I know the Lord, polices His own, that's where I leave it and pray for them. There are some big, well  blessed ministries these days, and still a lot of people here in the states, hungry, homeless, or a paycheck away from it. I'm  sure there are ministries that run it as the Gospel has guidelines for in giving to them that suffer, and are  without. At least thats what I hope and pray for. I guess the evidence would be that the area's around their ministry would not be in poverty, or in big decline in that area. I wonder if there is any proof of that out there? But I also know this truth, "God is in control". What I may not hear in the sermon, someone in the Church may have needed too, praise Jesus. I pray what I hear is Spirit led.

Only always for Jesus
in the love of a brother
ggamble

The first question really is, is the prosperity "gospel" really in scripture?

It is ONLY if you fall into the camp of those who believe that the church has completely replaced Israel, and by replacing Israel has also inherited all of the promises made by God to Israel.  Of course, those who do that run into a little problem....that being that if one inherits all the blessings (prosperity and blessings in return for obedience), then one also has to inherit all the curses (plagues, blasting and mildew, palmerworms, etc) for disobedience.  And what is the obedience to?  The Law. 

As Paul made clear, we either live by the law (and are judged by it) or we live by grace, and are given mercy.

Joel falls into the class of those spoken of by Ezekiel, which today we call "pillow prophets," or those who will tell everyone what is soothing and pleasing to the ear, rather than the hard facts and truth.  Paul spoke about it when he warned Timoth that "in the last days, perilous times will come.....and they shall heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears."  Jude also spoke to the issue, warning of "those who have crept in unawares (while we wern't watching properly)....and have run greedily after the error of Balaam..."

Does Jesus want every Christian to be blessed in this world?  Listen to His words:
"...the Son of Man has NO PLACE to lay his head..."
"...in this world you will be hated..."
"...if the world hates me, then it will hate you also..."

Does Jesus want every preacher to drive a Rolls Royce (so saith T. D. Jakes)?
Does Jesus believe that every preacher should give his wife a 25 karat diamond ring (so saith Rod Parsley)?
Did Jesus wear designer clothing (so saith John Avanzini)?

Or did Jesus say "in this world you will have tribulation (trials and troubles)?
And didn't He tell us that we have "...already been blessed in ALL things in heavenly places?"

There is only ONE Gospel...and it is the gospel of redemption from SIN (which MUST be spoken of) through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.  Our reward is in heaven...not on this earth.

And I seriously doubt that God is blessing a ministry that does not speak of sin, righteouness and judgment to come.  It is being blessed by the one who does NOT want the true Gospel preached.  The devil wants everyone to feel comfortable in this world...after all, it belongs to him........for now.

Amen, Evangelist. We should also remember the following words.


Mar 10:23  And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!


Luk 8:14  And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.


Mat 6:19  Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
Mat 6:20  But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Mat 6:21  For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.


If a person has a lot of wealth on this earth they are not doing as Jesus has told us to do. That person is being self centered and is not helping the needy enough.



Mat 19:21  Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Amen Evangelist!

You said it perfectly.  I believe in my heart that many times men mistake a big church (Joel's is the biggest in America) as one that is being blessed by God.  Is it a work of God or of men???  Remember that the "church" of the golden calf was a pretty big one too.

Your post made me think of the Muslims. Some of the most properous people in the world. Just recently they started construction on a mosque in Boston that is expected to cost at least  22 million dollars. Just another point that being properous is not evidence of being Godly.

Two questions:

  1.  It sounds as if you believe all Christains should be poor or, at least, that it is more spiritual to be poor than rich.  Is that correct?  Doesn't it take money to support missions, Christian schools, churches, pro-life, etc?

**
"As Paul made clear, we either live by the law (and are judged by it) or we live by grace, and are given mercy."

  2.  The Law is God's standard of righteousness.  Do you believe the law no longer applies?  Are we free to live in sin?  Granted, both Jesus and Paul attacked the law when misused as a method of salvation - we stand by grace alone.  But does that do away with the Law as God's standard of righteousness which the Holy Spirit is working in our lives?  God cared how people lived in the Old Testament but not the New? 

I am not saying that all Christians should be poor. If we follow the word of Jesus though we will not be super rich. We are told to give to the poor. How can one give to the poor in the manner that Jesus told us and still be rich in earthly items?

Personally I do not see the link that you are making here to law and grace. This has nothing to do with that. It does have to do with whether one is following the words of Jesus.


Mar 10:21  Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.


Mat 6:19  Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
Mat 6:20  But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:


To put our money into fancy buildings made of overly expensive materials. I am not talking here of those with a lot of money that put the majority of it into the things that you mentioned (Christian schools, missions, etc) but rather those that adhere to the idea that if you are not wealthy then you are not walking right with God such as many of those in the prosperity "gospel" claim. Many of these claim "Get right with God and be prosperous". While this is a good statement it is not earthly wealth that God is talking about while it is what these people are talking about.

God gives a few plenty so that they will divide among the many who have little. God does not want anyone hoarding.
Here's something that few people consider. The reason why there are so many poor people is because there are a few mega rich people.

Some of us think money grows on trees in the President's back yard, and he has people (illegal aliens) who pick the money for a dollar an hour, and the money is continuously added into the economic machinery.

Think of the total amount of currency in our country as a giant pie. There is enough for everyone to be well fed, but not grow fat. However, some of us have huge sections of the pie, and therefore others are going hungry, while some are litterally starving. I'm not a communist by any stretch of the imagination. I believe our system of democracy with a capitalist system is the very best in the world, however, just as the baseball players who make zillions of dollars per game, we should really consider a salary cap, so the other teams can compete.

One of the major problems our countries have is credit. This system is responsible for more poverty and misery than a lot of us realize. This system is eventually going to be the cause of the total economic downfall of democratic, capitalists systems throughout the world. How can we pay debt on interest drawn from currency that doesn't exist?

The only way this system can and does keep going is that some must go broke and bankrupt so that there assets can be redistributed back into the system to keep it going for a little longer. Eventually our countries credit rating will be so bad that the economy will litterally crash for good. Enter satan and his cashless society my friends.

This subject is very complicated, and it is impossible to make clear even a wee portion of the details, so if my attempt is lacking please forgive, but I believe my point is made.

John

Argumentum ad ridiculum....if you can't understand, or don't agree, then make it sound ridiculous.  That is NOT what was said, and you well know it.  The point is whether or not the gospel of health and wealth is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and I submit that it is NOT.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Again, a false argument.  Since when does not living under the law mean that we are free to live in sin?  Did anyone say that we were free to live in sin?  I didn't think so.

Progressive sanctification (of the fleshly nature) is the result of the Holy Spirit working in our lives....not the result of obedience to the Law.  Failure in being perfectly obedient still results in grace and mercy, and thank God for that!

Quit setting up straw men and stick to the subject.  And that subject is....is the health and wealth prosperity "gospel" preached by Osteen and others a real gospel?  Does it convince of sin, righteousness, and judgment to come?  Does it speak of the atonement of Jesus through His suffering and death? 

I don't think so.

Hi Glennd, :)

I'm not entirely sure how you came to that conclusion with what was written but if I personally said something you misunderstood, then let me clarify.  Leaving Osteen completely out of this one, I will only address the prosperity movement.  I have heard false teachers say that God WANTS you to be rich.  Some even go so far as to say that if you aren’t, the Lord isn’t blessing you because you are in sin.  They scream “100 fold!  100 fold!”. 

The problem is that in every church that belongs to the prosperity movement, money is always part of the message.  As though Christ died to make you rich, not to save you from your sins.  They want you to live by faith, and give all you have.  By the way, why is it that the Pastor of the church is the only one of the congregation who is not required to live by faith??  Why is it that the nicest car in the parking lot belongs to the pastor, who is supposed to be the people’s servant?  If they truly believed their message, then why wouldn’t the church tithe to the people, so that the Lord would return their money 100 fold?

I personally have not watched enough Osteen to know whether he is a prosperity teacher.  To me, he is a minister of a watered down version of the gospel.  He tells the people what they want to hear, mainly: live right, pay your taxes, keep your lawn mowed, say your prayers at night, and you’ll get into heaven.  He never says “your sin separates you from God and if you choose to live your life separate from Christ, then God will honor that decision in eternity.”

I know many people whom the Lord has blessed greatly and they are awesome Christians.  The Lord didn’t tell the rich young ruler to give all he had because being rich was bad, He told him to give all he had because He knew that it was the one thing that kept him from following the Lord entirely.  The Lord wants you to get rid of whatever comes before Him.  Had the rich young ruler been a woman living in adultery sitting by a well, the Lord would have pointed that out instead. 

I have heard prosperity teachers twist scripture to fit their messages.  They quote scripture out of context and pull several verses from different books to make a complete thought.  They take 4 or 5 offerings a service and measure the faith of the people by how much money they give, not how faithfully they serve the Lord.  Worst of all, they cause young Christians, who aren’t yet familiar with what the word says, to stumble.  Bottom line…

We need to praise God for what he has already done for us, not for what he might do for us in the future.  If God never did anything for you again, glennd, would what he did on the cross be enough to follow Him, worship Him, live your life for Him?  Or does one need the promise of wealth  to do that?

Whether or not it's ok to be "rich" or not is one thing, but the fact of the matter is that Joel is pretty much just lying.  He also takes verses out of context a lot.  I know, I get his daily devos by email.  Observe:

Today's Scripture

"...for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith." (I John 5:4)

Today's Word from Joel and Victoria

"As a child of God, you have the power of faith within you to overcome the world. That includes everything in the world, and everything the world brings your way! The Bible says that faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). As you hear the Word of God and store it in your heart, your faith in God grows stronger.

When the enemy tries to attack you through sickness, fear, worry, or financial mishaps, just use your faith by declaring the Word of God. Find scriptures to speak over your problem or whatever you are facing. Declare that perfect love casts out all fear! Declare that God shall supply all your needs! Declare that because you are born of God, you have faith to overcome the world!"

--------------------------------------------

See, when I read that verse, I immediately thought it hard spiritual/eternal life implications.  But Joel takes it the other way, to mean we'll overcome all of our problems in this life, if we just have "enough faith."  How much is enough, Joel?

Here's another:

Today's Scripture

"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb." (Psalm 139:13)

Today's Word from Joel and Victoria

"You are a person of destiny! God chose you to be here before the foundation of the world. God knew you before you were ever formed in your mother's womb. God made you with a purpose and you are a vital part of His divine plan.

You may not realize it right now, but you have God-given dreams and desires inside of you. The dream starts like a little flame, and throughout life you have to constantly add fuel to the fire to help it grow. As you continue to fellowship with Him and with fellow believers, God will reveal Himself to you in ways you never thought possible. He will reveal the dreams in your heart, and bring them to pass!

As you continue to seek the Lord and His wonderful plan for your life, you will discover victory in every area–you will discover the champion in you!"

---------------------------------------------

Here he is assuming that every desire that dwells within us is from God.  Ever heard of the devil, buddy?  I'm pretty sure that most of my desires are sinful.  In fact, I'm pretty sure that not much of what is in me is good, whatsoever.  But Joel just wants us to feel good about ourselves. 

There's a lot more where those came from...

I have to confess I never heard of Joel Osteen, but I have heard the prosperity gospel.
What I wonder is what Christians in China, Sudan, Iraq, Pakistan, India, etc. would make of the message? It would make them appear to be weak in faith and not very good Christians - when in fact they probably have stronger faith than most of us!

Most of the world's Christians are NOT prosperous.

Agreed!  Joel's ministry only works on a capitalist country like America.  It doesn't seem to be working anywhere else.

An update.  It is becoming popular in other places too.  After salvation, a believer is bombarded now with various kinds of preaching (thanks to four 24 hour christian channels).  When he comes across  prosperity preaching it obviously pleasing to  ears.  Though it is often stressed by prosperity preachers that they mean spiritual prosperity over material, listeners are far more interested in the latter.  Cant blame both - preacher and the hearer.

Agree that money is important, and if I know this Jesus knows better.  When He wants to give me enough, He surely do so sans a prosperity preacher.  I also do not know Joel.

If "prosperity preaching" is Scriptural, then God the Father owes God the Son a huge apology.

Jesus was born in a cave normally occupied by farm animals. He lay in an eating trough as an infant. He was raised by a poor carpenter.

During His ministry, He didn't even have a place to lay His sweet head. He died naked on the cross while His clothes went to the guy with the "high card".

All this is true of One Who not only did not sin but obeyed His Heavenly Father even unto death.

Sorta shoots a big ol' hole in "prosperity preaching", huh?

Please forgive me if I repeate something that somebody has already said, but this subject has been on my heart for quite some time.

Joel Osteen's preaching is what initially brought me to God.  The problem is that I came to God for all of the wrong reasons.  Thankfully situations in my life at that time showed me I wasn't as 'righteous' as I once thought and that we are all sinners.

Instead of just saying it myself I want to quote Ray Comfort from "The Way of the Master" episode "Hell's Best Kept Secret."  He told a parable that really got my intention.

Lets say that life is a flight.  2 men are among many others on an airplane.  The first man is handed a parachute and told that it will improve his flight.  The second is handed a parachute and is told that the flight will eventually crash and it is the only thing that will save his life.  When the men put the parachutes on everyone begins to laugh at them as they are the only two wearing them.  The first man not only is deeply affected by the persecution, but he also notices that it is very uncomfortable when he sits back down.  He struggles for a while and finally he realizes that whoever gave him that parachute is a liar.  So he takes it off and throws it to the ground!  The second man is so greatful that the parachute will save his life he barely notices the persecution or the discomfort when he sits down.  In fact, one of the flight attendants spills coffee on his leg.  Instead of throwing the parachute to the ground, he clings to it tighter and looks FORWARD to the jump.

Basically, The Bible makes it clear that we will endure tests and persecution as Christians.  If we tell people "Jesus will give you everything you want and make you happy" then people will turn away from him as they endure tests and persecution.  However, if people realize the kind of sins they've committed against God and are told that Jesus Christ is their only means of salvation; they will cling to Him and look forward to their time with Him.

Friends, the Gospel message is simply this.  The Joy that Jesus Christ talks about comes in following Him.  Not because He will buy us a new car if we do.  The Joy that Jesus Christ talks about is the Joy of Salvation, not the Joy of having a nice big house.

Will God reward you, no doubt!  But what greater reward is there than the one that awaits us in Heaven?  What more can we ask for than the saving grace of Jesus Christ?

Amen Kenny5682!

First, I see that you are new, and I want to WELCOME! you.


I give thanks that the Holy Spirit of GOD uses many things to soften the hearts of men and convince them to accept JESUS CHRIST as Lord and Saviour. I don't agree with the health and wealth doctrines at all, but I have also heard many preachers teaching these doctrines give the GOOD NEWS of the plain and simple Gospel - JESUS CHRIST and the Cross. ALMIGHTY GOD uses imperfect men for HIS purposes, so we are really back to giving thanks to GOD - not men.

I many times dwell on the facts and promises of GOD that HIS WORD will never return void. That wouldn't be because of men, but because of GOD.

Brother, the health and wealth that really means something is ETERNAL and NOT of this world. I love to think about our riches in CHRIST and the glorified bodies HE will give us one day. One of the things that bothers me about the health and wealth doctrine is that some of the strongest Christians I know don't have either of them in this short life. Some would say that these sweet Christians aren't right with GOD because they are poor or ill. In all reality, this world isn't our home, and GOD didn't promise us ease or comfort here in this short life. We must put things in perspective and know that this short life is nothing in comparison to eternity with JESUS CHRIST. I love to just imagine what that will be like, and I know that being poor or ill right now just isn't important. What is important in this short life is that GOD can use us in some way to help others find CHRIST. It's important that GOD gets all the GLORY for obvious reasons:  1) It is GOD who begins a good work in us;  2) It is GOD who finishes that work in us.

Brother, I simply give thanks that GOD used many ways to bring us to HIMSELF and rescue us from the curse of sin and death.

Brother, I sincerely hope that you enjoy Christians Unite. I look forward to reading your posts and having fellowship with you.

Love In Christ,
Tom

2 Timothy 4:7-8 NASB  I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

I give another Amen Kenny!

The parable that you gave from Ray Comfort is what we see in the Bible of the seed planted by the wayside vs the seed planted in good soil. It is indeed a Biblical truth that God has given us. We must be planted in Him in truth and in spirit.

Many hear a good presentation of the Gospel in "seeker sensitive" churches.But most of the time, that's all they hear. Without discipleship, there is seldom growth.   Every new Christian should have the opportunity to know "what's next". And in that, they should understand that life is not a "bowl of cherries" for those who have received Christ. Quite to the contrary, we are told that we should expect persecution. We should have the attitude that Chinese Christians have...that of being thankful for persecution...because it brings about church growth, both in numbers and in spiritual development.

God does not expect us to accept Him and His Kingdom blindly. He has made is clear that there will good times and bad, happy times and sad, but we can also expect a joy that defies understanding and description when we place our unadulterated faith in Him.

Sounds like you have discovered that, Kenny. Press on in Him, Brother. Glory awaits.

Another AMEN Brother Len!

This thread turned out to be a really nice discussion.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Galatians 2:19-21 NASB  "For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

LOL

And Amen Kenny and Len.

But let me state this...the Gospel of Christ is a prosperity gospel!

If you follow the gospel of Christ here on earth you will prosper later in heaven

:)

Amen Brother Jerry!

In all reality, a Christian's riches in CHRIST are beyond human imagination. Looking at it this way, Christians are the richest people on earth, and that would include Christians who are hungry and without proper clothing and shelter.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:1-2 NASB  Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Let me un-nice it a little here  :)

Joel Osteen has trod the Gospel of Christ under foot. Being conformed to the image of Christ is the "mark of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" that Paul speaks of....(and Joel never does). Equating the size and success of Osteen's "ministry" with God's blessing is prepostrous....Tony Robbins has the same "blessing" for the same reasons. A token smattering of Christian teaching lost in an avalanche of self-help, ear soothing garbage is a horrifying travesty....especially as it becomes the vangard message of "popular" Christianity.

I often think of Paul's prosperity and retirement plan...prison and decapitation.


Rev 2:2
2. I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: (KJV)

WS

That was just the path he took on his way to his rich retirement.

Mat 6:19  Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
Mat 6:20  But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Mat 6:21  For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

"Un-nice" it, huh? LOL. But what you have posted is accurate. There is NOTHING "nice" about what happened to Jesus in the final 24 hours of His ministry on earth. It was a most horrific series of events. I think I am within the mark when I say that I think God wants us present truth, warts and all, "nice" and "un-nice".

The "un-nice" about which you speak is a result of mankind's fall from grace. The "nice" is the result of God's response to our failure.

The first step to salvation is an acknowledgement of the huge gap that stands between a holy God ("nice") and sinful man ("un-nice"). The next step is top receive the free gift of salvation ("nice") and pardon ("nice") for our sin ("un-nice).

The next thing that SHOULD happen is an opportunity to grow spiritually (discipleship...that is disciplining....training). Most times it is difficult. Even Paul talked about it. He said he did the things he did not want to do and didn't do the things he wanted to do in his struggle to please God. Personally, I have never found being an obedient servant of God to be easy. But it has always been full of joy...even fun.

We have to see both sides to have the whole truth.

Hello Whitestone,

I've only heard Joel Osteen preach a couple of times on television, so I'm not any authority on what he preaches. I would simply say that what I heard was definitely health and wealth.

We do live in a time where many do have "itching ears" and are unable to endure sound doctrine. People want to be entertained, and they certainly don't want to be offended by the Sharp Sword of GOD'S WORD. ALL who properly handle GOD'S WORD get cut by that SWORD, and this is a good thing. However, there is also an AWESOME FEEL GOOD portion of GOD'S WORD for those who are saved and realize the RICHES OF CHRIST. Understanding Salvation and knowing that you have it is a JOY like nothing this world has to offer. In fact, there are many AWESOME FEEL GOOD things that Christians can experience even in this short life. PEACE WITH GOD is another example and a beginning knowledge of the depth of GOD'S Love for us. Many people suffer from thoughts that they are unwanted, unloved, and don't belong. I'm thinking right now about one of the primary reasons why kids join gangs. They think that they will find acceptance and belonging in a gang.

The ultimate acceptance and belonging is found ONLY in JESUS CHRIST for people who ask HIM to be the LORD over their lives. The point I would like to make is there are MANY REAL AND WONDERFUL "FEEL GOOD" things for a Christian, and the TRUTH is much more impressive than the things of this world. SO, a Christian can practice an ULTIMATE form of "POSITIVE THINKING" in JESUS CHRIST and continually give thanks to GOD.


Love In Christ,
Tom

1 John 3:1-2  See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

You will NEVER hear a "prosperity preacher" giving his message in Ethiopia, or in Guatemala, or in Ukraine, or in any other impoverished country. Why? Because there is no one there with money with which to line the preacher's pockets.

AMENS all around bros.

It seems the days have come when they will not endure sound doctrine.


How great a Love indeed!! and by His marvelous Grace...when we do realise what you have shared here Tom...such low views of prosperity seem silly and trite...God help the masses of people who have been suckered by the fables of such "ministries"

WS

Let me just quote something from the Good Book :)

II Timothy Chapter 4 vs 1 thru 5 (NAS)

I Solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and hte dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths.  But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

We can see it here that the people will want the "feel good" preaching.  And we also learn what happens as they continue.  And the consequences of moving away from the doctrine of the Gospel of Jesus.

Brothers and Sisters,

There's a lot of heart-breaking things happening today. We see what appear to be many children walking away from the teaching of strong Christian parents. We see churches abandoning basic Biblical principles, and some churches even becoming abominations to GOD. The remaining moral fiber of our societies is stretched and breaking, and there is more evil on the way around every corner. I'm not a "what's the use" Christian, and I pray that GOD gives me the strength, determination, and guidance to do HIS will until JESUS takes me home.

I know many Christians who feel the same way I do, but I fear that many Christians are depressed, silent, and have already thrown in the towel. We can and should be that Biblical voice of right and wrong, regardless of how badly we are treated and made fun of. We can and should definitely be 1 in 100, 1 in 1,000, 1 in 10,000 who keeps proclaiming JESUS CHRIST, the Cross, forgiveness, and Salvation.

There are already large numbers of Christians who have given their lives in other parts of the world DOING what we can still do here in relative safety. We don't have any excuses, and we shouldn't try to sell ourselves any excuses. If churches quit doing GOD'S Work, we are still here to do GOD'S Work.

I'm thinking right now about writers of the New Testament going to their deaths for their work and TESTIMONY. AND, WHAT A MIGHTY TESTIMONY it was! There WAS a use for their death and TESTIMONY for hosts of people, and their TESTIMONIES are still powerful today. How many of us are willing to face death for JESUS CHRIST? Have you ever asked yourself that question? If not, ASK IT!

Have you ever thought that this age of Grace might be winding down to the end, and we might be seeing Bible Prophecy unfold before our very eyes? If this was true, would you do anything differently tomorrow? Would you have a burden for a lost family member or a friend? Why put off any longer what GOD has been leading you to do in witnessing to others? Does it really matter if this is the end of this age or not? Do you have work to do for GOD that you've been putting off? If so, get busy and do it. That family member or friend could die tomorrow or the next day and your opportunity would be gone forever. Will you be alive next week? Will you be alive tomorrow? Would you like to pray and ask GOD for forgiveness for things that are heavy on your heart? What are you waiting for?

Love In Christ,
Tom

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 NASB  Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord--for we walk by faith, not by sight--we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
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2 Peter 3:3 NASB  Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,

2 Peter 3:4 NASB  and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."

2 Peter 3:5 NASB  For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,

2 Peter 3:6 NASB  through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.

2 Peter 3:7 NASB  But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:8 NASB  But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

2 Peter 3:9 NASB  The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:10 NASB  But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

2 Peter 3:11 NASB  Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

2 Peter 3:12 NASB  looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!

2 Peter 3:13 NASB  But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

There is NO WAY Joel's ministry is even remotely on target.

Jesus told people to take up their cross and follow Him, not search out earthly riches or teach that God espouses such nonsense.

In my opinion, any pastor or elder that calls themselves a Christian has no business wearing thousand-dollar suits, expensive watches, and living in, let alone owning, multiple million-dollar homes. This is the prosperity gospel pure ans simple. It's evil, and anyone that adheres to it is walking down the path to trouble.

Joel teaches that "other gospel" that Saint Paul warned us about. He should be declared anathema and put on every prayer chain on the planet until he wakes up from his dream, sells his riches, gives them to the poor, and takes up the cross of Christ wearing everyday man clothes, gets himself into an orthodox seminary (if he still wants to be a pastor), and focus on spreading the One True Gospel as instituted by Jesus Christ Himself.

Harsh words, yes, but required, and per Saint Paul, perfectly biblical.

Yes I've noticed that this seems to be true which is sad.

When Barbara Walters interviewed Joel Osteen, I was shocked to learn he did not have any theological degree or training!!    He inherited his ministry from his father when he was very young.

I know people without degrees can have a deep spiritual knowledge and walk with the Lord....but I do think a pastor with a "mega church" should have a theological degree.  (I know some native pastors do not have degrees due to their circumstances, but most of them try to acquire some theological training.)

Personally I don't see that part as being a problem. I have known many individuals with a degree in Theology that still don't have an inkling of an idea about a true spiritual walk with Jesus. Many of the Apostles did not have any sort of education other than that given to them by Jesus. There are many Theologians that through their great list of degrees are leading many people down the wrong path. The most important thing is that they have Christ in their heart and are called by Him to serve in that capacity.

We can tell which ones are and which ones are not by those that follow God's word. We do this through a personal relationship with Jesus, prayer and study of His word. It does not take a theological school to be able to learn His word but a right heart.

Putting money and health in the front of the line ahead of Jesus is not having a right heart.

Hello DebP,

I see pros and cons on formal degrees and training. Much would depend on the school and the individual professors. I know some folks with degrees in Theology who aren't even saved who simply consider the Bible to be a literary work. Some of them consider religion to be little more than a social program, not a program from GOD.

I've seen examples of the formally trained and the mentorship type of training in my own family. My grandfather was a graduate of the Moody Bible Institute, and he mentored numerous young men, including my father, uncles, and several of my cousins who all entered the ministry. Money was a big issue because most of them just didn't have any money. They came from large farm type families who were rich in Christ but very poor in worldly goods. I'll have to say that the old mentoring type of training worked extremely well for men who really wanted to work hard and learn. It was pretty easy to see those who had the proper desire and an actual calling from GOD to go into the ministry. The mentor and the church of the mentor sponsored the young minister to become Ordained if he was ready and withheld sponsorship if he was not. This usually included the full range of work that a pastor does in a real setting instead of a classroom setting. It was also a matter requiring years of hard work and concentrated learning.

I would repeat that I see pros and cons of formal training in a school. Schools have ruined many young men and misdirected many others. I must also mention that none of the pastors in my family had the desire to run a church like a business and develop what they call a mega-church these days. They served smaller congregations, and most of the people in the congregation were average or poor in terms of money. Money wasn't the issue in the churches they pastored.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Revelation 21:23 NASB  And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.

Pastor Roger and Tom,  Actually, I agree with both of you about degrees and theological training.  (I had to leave Bible college due to my father's death and needing to support my mother, so I have no degree but a close walk with the Lord.)

Since Pastor Osteen's message is so "one-sided" about prosperity is the reason I thought he should have gotten theological training.  We might be called to a certain aspect of ministry, but should be a little more well rounded as to other Bible doctrines.

Oh, just a note:  One of my pastors that was extremely good and had alot of spiritual insight said he got saved while sitting in a classroom studying for his doctorate in theology!!  He said it happened instantly after something the professor said!!  :)

Hello DebP,

I hope that I didn't sound overly critical about Bible colleges and Seminaries. My family has examples of nearly all kinds in terms of various kinds of training, some very formal and some less formal but still very difficult. I think that all of the circumstances and factors must be known to determine what kind of training is the best. Available schools and the amount of money required are always major factors. Many outstanding pastors I know would never have made it into the ministry had they waited for the money and opportunity to attend a Bible College or Seminary. On the other side of the coin, I know many missionaries who required specialized and custom training for the countries they went to serve. Without the training and sponsorship, they would never have made it into their chosen mission field.

Regardless of circumstances, I think that a single true statement can be made, "If GOD calls a person into the ministry, GOD will provide a way to properly equip the person for the work HE wants done. Realistically, GOD has work for all of us to do. If we yield to HIS Will, GOD will prepare us for the work in HIS chosen way.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 Corinthians 6:17 NASB  But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

Yes, I believe this, too.  Even though I had to go into secular work, I believe I have a missionary calling as it is extremely  easy for me to reach out to others, and missions was the minor I choose in 74/75, too.  The Lord has brought many people across my path all of these years, and especially people from foreign countries and with different religions.  As you say, the important thing is to be yielded to the Lord and to walk with Him each day.

I am not trying to judge Joel Osteen in any way, but from what I have seen and heard of him, its my opinion, he's a good motivational speaker. Thats about it.

Sister sjoara, I have to second that.  I have watched him on TV a few times, and have yet to hear him preach salvation or read Bible scripture.  In all fairness, I have only seen him a few times, so it is very possible I missed those sermons.

I agree....we must love our brothers and sisters in Christ....but I think it's important for a pastor to give more balanced sermons.

I agree that sermons should be balanced between milk and meat. I also believe that it is important to give the Gospel and opportunity to accept Christ at all times, this is our primary goal ... to preach the Gospel to every creature. We can never have enough of the Gospel.

Brothers and Sisters,

I just want to make one very general statement involving disappointment. These days, it appears that big money, huge audiences, and big opportunities are not known for preaching the GOOD NEWS and strengthening those who are already in Christ. It appears to be more of a social gospel with a little "g" and teaching people how to be happy with the things of this world. The things of this world are popular and draw big crowds.

Many opposites appear to apply to those who are really trying to concentrate on the lost and build strong Christians . These ministries aren't known for big audiences, big money, or big anything, but I firmly believe they are doing the work that GOD really wants done from the pulpit. They probably have to pray about how to pay all of the bills and go without many of the things that they want or need. I realize this is very general, but I really think it's the truth in most cases. What is the REAL priority - GOD or the things of this world?

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 1:10-13 NASB  He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Amen Brother Tom.

I believe that God wants us to prosper even as our soul prospers. Think for a moment how can Christians reach the world if we were always broke. We have to send missioners to countries where they don't get paid for their services, they only way they can get paid is through the help of other Christians, just as Paul was helped by the church in Philippi.

We have to give with a cheerful heart, and before we can do that we have to pray sometimes God wants us to support one ministry sometimes He wants us to support another, and sometimes He wants us to support several ministries. God will provide for us to be able to help whatever ministry He puts in our heart.

We can not dig a hole in the ground and not plant a seed but still sit there and expect something to grow. We have to plant a seed somewhere. If we are not able to go to places where missionaries go we can help them get there, by supporting them that would be as if we ourselves went.

When God delivered Israel out of Egypt, Israel was not broke, they left with gold and silver, and cattle and other herds. They left with fine linens and with tools.
They had been in slavery for 400 years, where did they get all these riches? They got them from the Egyptians. God owns all the cattle on a thousand hills, we are His heirs, shouldn't we be able to gain riches?

It is not up to us to judge anyone, but instead to pray for them. That is what we should be doing. If God blessed me and made me a multi-millionaire I would definitely support some ministries, regardless of whether I thought they deserve it of not if God put it in my heart to do it than I would be obligated to do it.

I also believe in helping the "poorer" ministries.....that's why I feel led to help indigenous missions through Christian Aid  (especially in Muslim countries where no American or Western missionaries are allowed).   Even though I am not rich or "middle class" in income, I still think I am blessed by God.  If God would bless me more so....I would love to help these missions even more!!

Amen Sister,
 I always ask God to show me which ministries to sow my seed to. He knows exactly where He wants us to sow. And He always provides seed for us. Just like He did for the widow in 1Kings.

What I know of Joel is he won't tell his congrigation that there sinners because it makes them feel bad .Like most of the TV preachers and I use that with a little salt .They knowhow to  scam the flock.the Word tells us they will come as wolves in Sheeps Clothing .If theses  tv guys would use all the money that gets sent to them then we wouldnt have poverty in this country but look at what they live in .It ok to bee comfertable but million dollar mansions arenot needed.

Hello Russ44k,

Welcome to Christians Unite.


I look forward to reading your posts and having fellowship with you.

I saw a news story the other night about the lifestyles of the rich and famous TV preachers, and it was obscene. Many of the mansions were big enough to be hospitals, and many of these so-called preachers had several mansions. I turned it off after they started showing the private jets of these so-called preachers. It was sickening to realize that many people with humble means sent their offerings to pay for those lavish things of the world. Do the supporters know what their offerings are being used for? Let's get real - are these offerings being used for the LORD'S Work?

Brothers and Sisters, I realize that many would call me an old square, and I would probably also be known as an "OLD FUNDY". That's fine, and I'm actually beginning to like these terms. I have a large family, and a fairly large percentage of my family includes several generations of preachers and missionaries. The preachers and missionaries in my family are simple people who are good stewards of any offerings given to them in the name of the LORD. I must add that they also give offerings to others out of the offerings they receive.

I really only want to say one more thing, and I'll get off of my soap box. Bluntly and simply, I consider it criminal and sinful for people to misuse and abuse offerings that were given in the name of the LORD for HIS Work. Many of them are obeying man's  law, but they will answer to a higher court one day.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 3:14-19 NASB  For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

I don't usually watch TBN, but some of the tv preachers do preach the Word of God and some of the programming is going into areas like the Middle East which is really needed....but regarding mansions, etc, personally I think it's important to try to live a simple lifestyle and share more.

debp
yes TBN does have a handfull of pastors that are good .The problem I see is not enough people know Gods word who watch tbn to be able to tell who teaching truth or who teaching false doctrine.
Normally when I watch tbn its to see what new doctrine did tbn come up with .
I donot recommend tbn for viewing unless your well versed in Gods word.
Some one tell me is it ok to talk of a fales doctrine and name whos teaching it?

Personally I think that it is best to approach this with a positive outlook. Preach the word of God.

We have many threads on here about false doctrines and whose teaching them. What the world needs is Jesus Christ. Teach the truth and the false teachings will be known.

AMEN Pastor Roger!

I have no doubt at all that GOD'S WORD is still the most powerful weapon and tool in existence.

I must also say that the simple TRUTH of JESUS CHRIST and the CROSS is still the BEST NEWS there is on this earth. Little children can understand GOD'S simple plan of Salvation, and this is one message that never grows old. In fact JESUS used children as an example of coming to HIM in childlike faith and spoke of them as the greatest in Heaven. JESUS warned those around HIM to never forbid the children from coming to HIM.

Brothers and Sisters, if there's ever been a time, it's time to share JESUS CHRIST and the CROSS. This is the greatest POWER in the HOLY BIBLE, and GOD will help us to share it. I was just thinking that many churches today are in the self-help business, and they teach just about everything EXCEPT the REAL POWER OF GOD'S WORD. I'm not interested in self-help, but I am interested in learning more about JESUS CHRIST and asking HIM to help me. I'm not interested in so-called social gospels, becoming popular in the community, getting rich, or being more acceptable to the world. I want the GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD, and that's what the entire world is desperate for. I don't want to know more about myself and how to change myself. I want to learn everything I can about JESUS CHRIST and yield to let HIM work in and through me. I want JESUS CHRIST to change me, and HE'S already started this work. Further, GOD will complete this work most perfectly according to HIS Promises.

Brothers and Sisters, I really just want to make one point. Tell everyone the Old, Old Story - about GOD'S Glory - and what JESUS CHRIST did for us on the CROSS. Tell everyone about GOD'S GIFT to us and what it means. Simple people with limited language skills can tell this TRUTH IN GREAT POWER! Remember, the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD lives in our hearts, and HE will help us tell the GOOD NEWS! Please don't think that you can't be GOD'S Messenger because of some weakness you might feel. If GOD calls you or gives you the opportunity, you are the perfect messenger for the job. GOD doesn't make any mistakes, and GOD can use stammering lips of clay for HIS Glory. GOD can even use our mistakes for HIS Glory, so we all need to remember that everything is about GOD'S Glory - not our glory.

Love In Christ,
Tom


1:  Romans 3:10 NASB  as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

2:  Romans 3:23  NASB  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

3:  Romans 5:12  NASB  Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

4:  Romans 6:23  NASB  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

5:  Romans 1:18  NASB  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

6:  Romans 3:20  NASB  because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

7:  Romans 3:27  NASB  Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

8:  Romans 5:8-9  NASB  But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

9:  Romans 2:4  NASB  Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

10:  Romans 3:22  NASB  even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

11:  Romans 3:28  NASB  For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

12:  Romans 10:9  NASB  that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

13:  Romans 4:21  NASB  and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.

14:  Romans 4:24 NASB  but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,

15:  Romans 5:1  NASB  Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

16:  Romans 10:10  NASB  for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

17:  Romans 10:13  NASB  for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Well, I may dislike Joel Osteens "preaching", because I don't really consider him to be a preacher, but I can tolerate him more than Rodney Howard Browne and Benny Hinn.....I will not apologize when I say that those two are disgraceful and appalling, and will have to stand before Yeshua  and answer for thier atrocities towards Jesus Christ and Christianity. They are borderline blasphemous.

 I am not judging, but from thier actions, behavior and comments alone, its very clear to see what they really are.  They really disgust me, I am not a fan of them and a few others, I could name, but I will end here.

sjtoara
I would agree with you on the folks you mentioned and many many more who are on TBN,and other so called Christian TV stations.Just a Quick verse in matthew 7;1&2 Do not judge lest you be judge. For in the way that you judge you will be judged:and by the  standard of measure ,it will be measured to you.(NASB)
I believe this verse and others are telling us not to judge others because more than likely we may not beable to stand up to are own scrutiny.
so with that said I would try and refrain from judging the speakers, and verify what is being taught with Gods word .Anyone who takes a look and lets the Spirit lead them and not what some man says on TV will see how much false teaching there is coming from these guys.
I have a book called Christianity In Crisis it documents the teachings of most of the false teachings on TBN it also has audio of some of the speakers spuing out the teaching..There are teaching on that TV station of Christ going to hell and being punished  bound in chains and wiped for our sin. but yet on the cross he said "IT IS FINISHED"witch is a accounting term that MEANS PAID IN FULL.so if it was paid at the cross then being tortured in hell was not needed.and makes Christ a lier.
or how about a god head that is 9 instead of 3.the basic teaching is this ,God the father is a triune being God the son is triune and God the spirit is triune.that makes 9. I'm not against spreading Gods plane of salvation over the airwaves but it sure would be nice to be able to have solid teachings being taught according to the Word instead of warm and fuzzy according to man.

I have seen many web sites that have devoted page after page to the pointing out of false teachings and those that are doing them yet give very little if any space to the truth of the Gospel. I have also heard the "don't judge" teachings and do not agree with them totally. There is a difference in judging an individual and judging what is being taught or what is being done. Those who wish to continue their lives in sin use this "do not Judge" to silence those that attempt to teach the truth.  We are to judge righteously. If we did not then we would be allowing these teachings to go on without teaching the truth, to permit false teachings to enter into our churches.



Pro 31:9  Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.

Joh 7:24  Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

We do need to judge what is wrong and what is right. We also need to concentrate on preaching what is right. How can people hear the truth if we spend all of our time pointing at false teachers and not letting people hear the truth.

Rom 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Let us preach the word of God that others may hear and come to know Jesus Christ as their Saviour.

Amen Pastor Roger!

In fact, Christians are to judge many things every day, but our authority is GOD and HIS WORD - not us. The portion of Scripture below illustrates this. Many have been wrongly and harshly judged for teaching JESUS CHRIST and the CROSS, most certainly including the Apostles. The Apostles' judgment of TRUTH and what should be taught was based on teachings in the very presence of GOD that they knew were right.

Thus, the illustration should proceed to "righteous judgment", that which is already judged as right, wrong, and TRUTH by GOD and HIS Word.
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(Acts 4:19)  But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it is right in the sight of God to hearken unto you rather than unto God, judge ye:

(Barnes)   Whether it be right ... - The apostles abated nothing of their boldness when threatened. They openly appealed to their judges whether their command could be right. And in doing this, they expressed their full conviction of the truth of what they had said, and their deliberate purpose not to regard their command, but still to proclaim to the people the truth that Jesus was the Messiah.

In the sight of God - That is, whether God will judge this to be right. The grand question was how God would regard it. If he disapproved it, it was wrong. It was not merely a question pertaining to their reputation, safety, or life; it was a question of conscience before God. We have here a striking instance of the principle on which Christians act. It is, to lay their safety, reputation, and life out of view, and bring everything to the test whether it will please God. If it will, it is right; if it will not, it is wrong.

To hearken - To “hear” and to “hearken” are often used to denote to “obey,” Joh_5:24; Joh_8:47, etc.

Judge ye - This was an appeal to them directly as judges and as men. And it may be presumed that it was an appeal which they could not resist. The Sanhedrin acknowledged itself to have been appointed by God, and to have no authority which was not derived from his appointment. Of course, God could modify, supersede, or repeal their authority; and the abstract principle that it was better to obey God than man they could not call in question. The only inquiry was whether they had evidence that God had issued any command in the case. Of that the apostles were satisfied, and that the rulers could not deny. It may be remarked that this is one of the first and most bold appeals on record in favor of the right of private judgment and the liberty of conscience. That liberty was supposed in all the Jewish religion. It was admitted that the authority of God in all matters was superior to that of man. And the same spirit manifested itself thus early in the Christian church against all dominion over the conscience, and in favor of the right to follow the dictates of the conscience and the will of God. As a mere historical fact, therefore, it is interesting to contemplate this, and still more interesting in its important bearings on human liberty and human happiness. The doctrine is still more explicitly stated in Act_5:29, “We ought to obey God rather than man.”
________________________________________________________


Plainly and simply, the absolute final authority is GOD and GOD'S WORD! A just example of using "righteous judgment" could be calling satan worship evil or any number of other absolutes in GOD'S WORD. It's important to note that the "righteous judgment" has already been done by GOD - not us. This is why many people want to remove many portions of the HOLY BIBLE and make GOD'S WORD more suitable for their sinful purposes.

The point here is that calling "sin" sin is not wrong. On the other side of the coin, calling evil good is wrong. NOW, I would hope that the conversation would go to the ONLY REMEDY - JESUS CHRIST AND THE CROSS. I'm firmly convinced that the greatest POWER Christians have in this day and age is still and will always be JESUS CHRIST and the CROSS. The devil fears the telling of this wonderful TRUTH more than anything else. Brother, you and I both already know that the devil would much rather us spend our time on anything EXCEPT JESUS CHRIST AND THE CROSS. In terms of the devil's rightful fear, JESUS CHRIST AND THE CROSS defeats the devil and sends him running.

Christians should know and practice this most powerful TRUTH at every opportunity. This old and beautiful story - about GOD'S Glory - of JESUS CHRIST and the CROSS is more powerful today than ever. I give thanks that even children can understand this story. In fact, we are all to come to JESUS in childlike faith. This most simple childlike faith in JESUS CHRIST as LORD and SAVIOUR is a wonderful VICTORY IN JESUS and a crushing defeat for the devil. Brothers and Sisters, the only real victories are in JESUS, and we must not withhold the TRUTH of the CROSS from those who are dying in their sins.

Knowledge of sin is still the first schoolmaster that leads the lost in search of JESUS. Faith still comes by hearing, and hearing by the WORD OF GOD. Brothers and Sisters, let us ALL make it a priority in our lives to SHARE the GOOD NEWS of JESUS CHRIST and the CROSS that rescued us from the curse of sin and death.

Love IN Christ,
Tom

Amen Brother Tom,



Exactly, we have no righteousness of our own.

for the time will come when they will not endure SOUND doctrine, but will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears

The following is a quote, made on national tv, of one of Osteen's associate ministers.

"No one should be teaching about the cross. We have made that a Graven Image. That was the means by which Jesus was crucified, but so were many others. We have put crosses all over the place. We have dignified the cross as if that is what God wants. There is no Gospel of salvation. The Gospel is to tell of one who came and will come again. "

Joel's church displays no cross. He doesn't talk about the shed blood of Jesus Christ.  He does not talk about the sinful condition of mankind and their need for a redeemer.  He does talk about setting your mind to "think positively" and to "say it long enough so you can have it."

As to whether or not we (REAL Christians) are supposed to point out false teaching, or name names....

"Now go, write it before them in a tablet, and note it in a book, that it may be for the latter day: that this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the Word of the LORD: and say to the seers, see not; and to the prophets, prophesy not to us of the right things, but instead speak of smooth things, tell us what we want"
Isaiah 30:8-10

"Astonishment and filthiness is committed in the land: The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests take things into their own hands: and my people love to have it so: WHAT WILL YOU DO IN THE END?"
Jeremiah 5:30-31

"I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:" Rev. 2:2

There are about 2 dozen more admonitions in the NT alone which tell us we are to examine ANY teaching, and weigh it against the FULL counsel (word) of God, to reject any teaching that does not match up, and to point out and rebuke, PUBLICLY, those who persist in teaching false doctrine, and to SHUN them.

Finally....

Without the cross, there is NO propitiation.
Without the cross, there is NO atonement.
Without the cross, there is NO redemption.
Without the cross, there is NO salvation.
Without the cross, there is NO future.
Without the cross, there is NO HOPE!

I join with the Apostle Paul in saying

" But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." Gal 1:8-9

The Gospel Paul preached, along with EVERY writer of the Bible, OT and New, is very simple.
Man is in sin.
Man cannot save himself.
God gave Himself to redeem man and save him by shedding His blood and dying on the cross.
The ONLY way to salvation is BY FAITH in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, by appropriating HIS death on the cross as the propitiation for our sin, and believing that He rose from the dead by the power of God.

That's how the cow ate the cabbage, folks...and any other "gospel" is pure hogwash that will send more people to hell than are already going.

(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/tinabaran/trustinginjesus.gif)

AMEN BROHANK!

Brother Hank, I've been gone with my children and grandchildren, so I'm late in being able to read your post. I say again AMEN!

I've also had some major computer problems that have slowed me down some.

More and more, I'm convinced that the message the devil hates the worst is JESUS and the CROSS. Nothing else can defeat the devil or rescue the lost who are sliding down into the pits of eternal fire.

ONLY JESUS SAVES! HIS Blood on the CROSS is the only power that is capable of washing my sins away, so I speak of HIS BLOOD in reverence and thanksgiving. This is one message that I never get tired of hearing. It is the core of my HOPE and TRUST in HIM. It's popular to talk about trust in men, but trust in men is worthless. Men are most often NOT a worthy subject for TRUST. As a complete contrast, JESUS CHRIST is 100% worthy for TRUST and FAITH. A Promise made by GOD is a Promise kept. A promise made by a man is always suspect and most of the time NOT fulfilled.

Brothers and Sisters, it's time for all Christian to go back to the basics. NOT one of us has anything of real worth unless it's in JESUS CHRIST. Our homes and riches aren't in this world. GET THIS - Our happiness isn't from being accepted by others - RATHER by belonging to JESUS CHRIST as HIS ETERNAL possession. The world doesn't have anything to offer us for any lasting happiness. Any happiness from the world is temporary and always turns sour in the end. I wish that all of our young people could hear about REAL BELONGING, TRUST, AND RICHES that are not of this world. Many really are trying to sell us fancy cars and big houses as the measure of happiness. This isn't real - it's a lie - and it blows like smoke in the wind. REAL HAPPINESS in this short life is found ONLY IN THE HEART OF A BELIEVER. If the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD lives in that heart, the person is rich beyond human imagination.

Brothers and Sisters, our temporary abode during this short life might be a shambles, but our home is a mansion in Heaven. Gold is highly sought during this life, but it's used to pave the streets at HOME. Many of us will even be hungry or thirsty during our short journey here, but we have plenty of everything at HOME. This short journey involves a trip through a barbarous land, but our GUIDE is with us and HOME isn't very far away.


1:  Romans 3:10 NASB  as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

2:  Romans 3:23  NASB  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

3:  Romans 5:12  NASB  Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

4:  Romans 6:23  NASB  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

5:  Romans 1:18  NASB  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

6:  Romans 3:20  NASB  because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

7:  Romans 3:27  NASB  Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

8:  Romans 5:8-9  NASB  But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

9:  Romans 2:4  NASB  Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

10:  Romans 3:22  NASB  even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

11:  Romans 3:28  NASB  For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

12:  Romans 10:9  NASB  that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

13:  Romans 4:21  NASB  and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.

14:  Romans 4:24 NASB  but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,

15:  Romans 5:1  NASB  Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

16:  Romans 10:10  NASB  for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

17:  Romans 10:13  NASB  for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Joel Osteen is a false prophet by his own testimony on the Larry King show (on CNN).  Read the transripts and find out for yourself.  He said he wasn't sure how Muslims and Jews would be saved.  He also said he doesn't like to preach on sin.  Jesus said He is the only way to the Father and eternal life.  Jesus is the only one who can remove God's wrath from us and unite us with God.  Without preaching on sin (fallen man) and the forgiveness that Jesus gives, there is NO point in preaching.

Hi David,

Welcome to Christians Unite.

I have never heard that but it is true that if we remove the foundations then all else falls short of being the true Gospel.

Hi...

Prosperity has nothing to do with God's plan for our life for His plan is not earthly but eternal...There was a time when God walked with Adam and Eve in the garden...Adam and Eve had everything until sin came in...It seperated us from God...God's plan for us had nothing to do with money..but had everything to do with sacrifice...the sacrifice of His only son that we can once again be reconciled with God...there is no prosperity large enough to pay the debt..the only way we can become a christian and inherit eternal life...is through Jesus...Jesus..who was not a rich man on this earth...and was not even given the title of rich and prosperous...Jesus told John...the poor have the gospel...Jesus never preached prosperity...Jesus preached repentance..."Before God and Christ Jesus. who is going to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom, I solemnly charge you, proclaim the message, persist in it, whether conveinient or not, rebuke, correct, and encourage with great patience and teaching. For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, will accumulate teachers for themselves because they will have an itch to hear something new. They will turn away from hearing the truth and will turn aside to myths. But as for you, keep a clear head about everything. Endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist fulfill your ministry.  2nd Tim. 4:1-4
To be truly prosperous is to know the Lord and to know you have eternal life...To know your sins are forgiven by the only one who can forgive and to be covered by the blood that so richly was shed for us...It is our calling on this earth...not to lust for riches...not to believe that when you come to the Lord all will be fine...for the road is narrow and few will find it for few will trust when the going gets rough...Few will utter the words..."THOUGH YOU SLAY ME..I WILL TRUST YOU...Are you like those christian brothers and sisters who were in jails awaiting their death singing praises to God...They were not rich on this earth..but have been given the greatest wealth for they have life eternal...None have preached earthly wealth, but eternal wealth and that being in the presence of Jesus...
My dear brothers and sisters.. the time is so short and the days will not get better...no amount of money can change anything...There was a time Jesus mentioned wealth and that was to a rich young man who chose wealth over the Lord and went away sad...How many are like that today?...

AMEN!

Hi Maryjane,

Welcome to Christians Unite. I look forward to reading more of your post.

Hello Maryjane,

I must first say AMEN! to your post. Our riches in CHRIST are beyond human imagination and they are for ETERNITY! Sister, I love to think about these riches many times each day. I also love the reality that this world is not my home - a Christian's Citizenship is in Heaven forever.


I sincerely hope that you enjoy Christians Unite. I've already enjoyed two of your posts and I look forward to reading more and having fellowship with you.

Love In Christ,
Tom


 

Well, I traded books with a new Christian at work, who was brought back to Christ in part by watching Joel Osteen on TV.  I gave him The Purpose Driven Life and he gave me one of Osteen's books.  I haven't gone very far in the book, but so far it is much more standard self help than Christian.

I saw in one of the posts above that Osteen doesn't have a cross in his church, but I don't think that means much.  His website says in its statement of faith:

WE BELIEVE…Jesus died on the cross and shed His blood for our sins. We believe that salvation is found by placing our faith in what Jesus did for us on the cross. We believe Jesus rose from the dead and is coming again.

Whether he preaches this I don't know.

I do think that prosperity gospel, insofar as it promises material things to a believing Christian, is false.  It may be God's will, it may not be, to give us wealth or health but it to a certainty not assured no matter how strong your faith is.  The books of Job and Jeremiah can't be understood as indicating that we Christians, if our faith is strong enough, will be provided wealth or protected from harm in this world and made happy. I've heard that history and ancient church documents indicate that all of the apostles other than John were martyred. They were rich men.  I hope that those that listen to Osteen understand why.

Joy is promised us and provided abundantly to the believer.  Happiness, wealth, and health, dependent on circumstances is not.

Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance.  Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. James 1:2-4

I did not read every reply, so do not know if this scripture was quoted or not, but here is how I feel about Osteen, Copeland, Casey Treat, (in my Seattle area), and others....

"For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple." [Romans 16:18].

Hi...

I agree...there is so much on the internet in regard to false prophets...but not enough on the gospel...for the Lord told John...the poor have the gospel...If ther be any judging..it will be to those that come into the body with false doctrine...for it is the responsibility of the body to hold onto the truth and many come like wolf in sheep's clothing...I do not think it wise to debate with anyone but to keep our conversatation clean and to live as the Lord has us live in this world..to walk worthy of our calling...I believe if there is any real issue..it is the need for evangelism and discipleship...

have a great evening...

Maryjane

Amen, sister. The greatest story ever told is the Gospel, from the creation to the fall of mankind into sin to the resurrection of our living, loving Saviour, to the day that all will be held accountable at the Great White Throne. It is this that must told to the lost and dying in hopes that they will also have eternal life.