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I have a simple question and that is, in the book of Acts the only mode or formula used for baptism was in the Name of Jesus Christ, my question is why is  not this the formula used throughout christianity today?




God Bless in Jesus Name

As in most such things men tend to go their own way.

I am a new to this forum but would like to add my comments to Colonel's posting.

He says:

"I have a simple question and that is, in the book of Acts the only mode or formula used for baptism was in the Name of Jesus Christ, my question is why is  not this the formula used throughout christianity today?"

 Pastor Roger's answer seemed too simplistic. Pastor Roger says: "As in most such things men tend to go their own way" 

My answer: The Devil and his co-workers are the Christians enemy:  Ephesians 6:12  "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places"

The Baptism into Jesus name is not a formula, it is a command from Jesus. It was the last thing he said before ascending into Heaven. It also included the Father first and the Holy Ghost after Jesus.

 Matthew 28:18-20  "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

The people in Acts 2:37 were pricked in their hearts after Peter preached Jesus to them and asked him what they should do. Peter gave them the answer in Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"  The gift of the Holy Ghost is given after baptism.  No other way of receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost is given in scripture.

Romans 6:3-8  "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:"

Belief in the Gospel and baptism into Jesus is the only way given in scripture to live your life in Him and he in you by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Baptism alone is not sufficient. As an example, John the baptist's baptism was not sufficient.

Acts 19:1-7 "And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.  And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. And all the men were about twelve."

Belief and proclaimed "Faith" is not sufficient to become a future member of the bride of Christ. We have to be justified. Justified means righteousness before God. Jesus gave us the way to achieve this at his baptism.

  Matthew 3:13-15  "Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him"

Jesus says baptism is the way to fulfil all righteousness, which means justification before God.

Faith alone does not get people into Christ no matter how sincere or devout they may be. They have to follow the commands and example of Jesus. Faith is dead without baptism. Abraham was commanded to sacrifice his son. We are not commanded to do something so drastic to obtain righteousness. We are commanded to be baptised.

 James 2:16-24  "And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only"   Baptism into Jesus is our command from Jesus.

May the Lord bless your studies.

Dave Porter







 

Hi Jessie,

Yes, Jesus Himself said to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

Mat 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

And yes Salvation is based on faith, not works.

Luk 7:50  And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

There are many that attempt to bring us back into bondage by making works a part of Salvation. Works are not a requirement of Salvation but because of Salvation. When we are saved we do good works because we love God and want to please Him not because we are required to do so for Salvation or for justification.

.

Amen PR, Jesus paid it all, all our sins are covered, nothing we could do will change that.

We are saved because of the Blood of Jesus. When we recieve Jesus as our Lord and Saviour, He comes into our heart, and along with Him the fruits of the Spirit.

Ga 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Ga 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Love was mentioned before all others;

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Charity (love) Love is the greatest of these and because of this love we do good works.

 ;)

Since Christ is the embodiment of the triune God, to be baptized in the name of Jesus is to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. You will note that in Matthew 28 it says "name", not names. Jesus is the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The name denotes the person. God is triune. The name Jesus is the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So it's ok to be baptized in the name of Jesus.

Col 1:19  For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell;
Col 2:9  For in him [Jesus] dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
Mat 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

One of the things we are commanded to do is be baptized and to baptize others. Do not try to decipher it, just obey. Be like the Ethiopian who after hearing the gospel said: Act 8:36 ...  "See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?"

When Phillip preached the gospel he included the teaching of baptism. Otherwise tell me why the man was so determined to be baptized.

Peter said: Act 2:38 ..." Repent, and be baptized..." all in one breath. He did not stop and explain that it is just symbolic and not necessary. Why do we do this? Because we are afraid someone might not understand the doctrine of justification by faith alone. This is hogwash, we repent by faith, we are baptized by faith we grow in grace by faith. Lets let the operation of God work in us through the obedience of Faith.

asaph

Greetings fellow bretheren:

This is an interesting question that has caused some serious debate over the years.
before I get too involved in the question, let me remind everyone that baptism is
an act that follows salvation, and in no way is a condition of salvation. Rom 10:13
tells us that "they that call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved"  No where
in there does the word tell us we must first be baptized to be saved.

Anyone can be baptized, if they go into the water a dry sinner, they come out of
the water a wet sinner! Baptism is an outward sign of an inward change. 1Cor.5:17
says: "if any man be in Christ he is a new creature, old things have passed away, and
behold all things have become new"!

Matt 28:19 was quoted earlier,  because it was Jesus who told us to baptize in the name
of the father, the son, and the holy ghost. My question is this to all who will answer:
What is the father's name?  What is the son's name? What is the name of the holy ghost?

Nest question: is there one name that will entail, and encompass, the name of the whole
godhead?

I am a father, but that is not my name! I am also a son, but that too is not my name!

Isaiah 42:8 tells us "I am the Lord, that is my name, and my glory I will not give to another!"
In the book of Matt. we see that the name given to the son was Jesus(this is the
English name used ) In Luke 2:11 we read unto you is born a savior, who is Christthe Lord

This would bring the name of the Godhead to:  Lord  Jesus  Christ   (in English)  Adonai Yeshua ha
Machiach (in Hebrew)

Does this mean that I am one of those who are Jesus only?  NO !  NO! AND A THOUSAND TIMES NO!
I believe in there being three seperate personalities of the Godhead. father, son, and holy ghost!
I just hapen to believe that their name when refered to as one G-d is Lord Jesus Christ!

One more point to bring to attention! Paul said we need to lay aside the doctrines of baptism , and
other foundational doctrines: and to press on to the mark of the prize of the high callling in Christ
Jesus. The doctrine of baptism will not lead us into salvation, or cause us to walk on the streets of
gold.; but: the doctrines of true salvation and living and working for Jesus will lead us to
salvation, and fellowship with the father, the son, and the holy ghost!

respectfully yours in Yeshua:

ravenloche

ravenloche

I think that Asaph dealt with this question. BTW Asaph, very interesting read.

I was taught a while back something interesting, but I am unable to confirm it. I was told that the reason that it was taught to have a water baptisms in Jesus' name only in some places in the Bible, while Jesus Himself said to do it in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, was because for the Jew the Father and The Holy Spirit were not a problem. This was readily accepted and was common, but it was the public profession of the Son, Jesus, that would bring death, disbandment, etc. So the public profession of the Son by baptism was the only profession that the Jew needed to make to serve the purpose of the public profession. I think that it's safe to say, and i'm sure you would agree that this was not some magical saying as in "open says me", but the importance of the baptism was a public profession and an outward expression of an inward truth, the Spirtual baptism by Jesus with the Holy Spirit into His Body that every believer receives at the first moment of believing in faith.

When we get outside of the Jewish believers and their OT background, namely the gentiles, the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit was the correct way since they had no background that already accepted the Father and the Holy Spirit.

There's nothing really that would back me up on this theory in scripture, but it does make a lot of sense. Just a thought...

Take it for what it's worth.

Peace

I'll throw out something here I think applies to a lot of scripture, and I think we all get tangled in from time to time.

We have recorded for us that Peter said, "...in the name of Jesus Christ...", but just because that is the only thing recorded does not guarantee that is the only thing said or implied.  Left as is, the quote does not contradict Matt 28:18-20.  Also, it is certainly possible Peter could have made that statement, then immediately afterward, qualified it with words like, "...in the name of the father, son and HG", and the recorder simply omitted that qualification, because the subject of Peters testemony was Jesus.

I believe the thought of Acts 2:38, was later re-qualified, just one chapter later, by the same author, in Acts 3:19-20

Acts 2:38
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 3:19,20
19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20 and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus.

I believe the subject of both statements is 'repent'.  The result of repentance, is forgiveness, and the result of being forgiven, and therefore right with God (righteuss) is the gift of the Holy Ghost / Jesus indwelling us.

Amen 1Tim. When we study the Bible we must study the whole Bible. Taking one verse by itself and applying it and it alone can lead to all kinds of misconceptions.

I'd like to add just one little not here, when the followers of John the Baptist were baptized, they were not baptized in the name of Jesus, because Jesus was still on earth as a man, but once Jesus was crucified, resurrected, and ascended into Heaven, we are to baptize in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Jesus had not all authority and power given to Him, and before He ascended into Heaven He gave that command, because He was no longer on earth. He had completed the reason He came to earth. So we must baptize and be baptized in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

How could one be saved by not following a command of Christ?

Mark 16:15-16 ASV
(15)  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation.
(16)  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.

Matthew 7:21-23 ASV
(21)  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.
(22)  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
(23)  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

It also does not say we must repent.  Would you deny that repentance is necessary for salvation?  It does not mention confessing, is that too unnecessary?  You cannot pick and choose what fits your idea or agenda.

The fact is there are many verses that mention one thing, but not the other. Why do some people follow one verse yet ignore another?  I submit  that is "taking away" from the Word as warned against in the book of  Revelation.  We must use the NT as a whole, not pick and choose what we want to do. 

We must believe(Mark 16:16), Repent(Acts 2:38), Confess(Romans 10:9-10), Be baptized(Acts 2:38; Mark 16:16) and be Faithful until death(Rev. 2:10)

Many say that baptism is a "work" that it is something we "do" therefore is unnecessary.  Aren't believing and repenting something we "do"?  Isn't confessing Jesus' name before men something we "do"?   

As to the idea that salvation occurs before baptism, I can find nowhere in scripture that indicates that this is so.  Acts 2:38, clearly shows it is necessary "for"  or "unto" the remission of sins by the use of the greek preposition "eis". The construction of the compound verbs—“repent and be baptized”—connected with the prepositional phrase—“for the forgiveness of sins”—demonstrates that the sense of eis cannot possibly be “because of,” thus conveying the sense, “on account of the forgiveness of your sins.” And why is that?

Because it would equally affirm that one is required to repent “because of” the forgiveness of his sins. Who in the world subscribes to the notion that one repents of sin because his transgressions are forgiven already? That makes no sense at all.

I see that you are still at it, Satisfied MInd.

If water baptism is a requirement for salvation then Jesus Christ must have lied to the theif on the cross next to him. We know that Jesus could not lie so all of your interpretations of these verses you have mentioned could not and is not right. And that is only one of many examples.

The translation of the Greek word  EIC  is "because of" in this verse due to the greater context of Scripture.

I've discovered that there are a number of different baptisms (Hebrews 6:1,2), such as the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Luke 3:16, Acts 11:16 I Corinthians 12:13 & others), the baptism of Moses (I Corinthians 10:2), the baptism of John (Luke 20:4, Acts 18:25, 19:3 & others).

You can look at numerous other passages where belief is the only reqirement for salvation.

Luke 8:12 Those along the traveled road are the people who have heard; then the devil comes and carries away the message out of their hearts, that they may not believe (acknowledge Me as their Savior and devote themselves to Me) and be saved [here and hereafter].

John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name

John 3:15-18 In order that everyone who believes in Him [who cleaves to Him, trusts Him, and relies on Him] may not perish, but have eternal life and [actually] live forever!  16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.  17 For God did not send the Son into the world in order to judge (to reject, to condemn, to pass sentence on) the world, but that the world might find salvation and be made safe and sound through Him.  18 He who believes in Him [who clings to, trusts in, relies on Him] is not judged [he who trusts in Him never comes up for judgment; for him there is no rejection, no condemnation--he incurs no damnation]; but he who does not believe (cleave to, rely on, trust in Him) is judged already [he has already been convicted and has already received his sentence] because he has not believed in and trusted in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [He is condemned for refusing to let his trust rest in Christ's name.]

John 3:36 And he who believes in (has faith in, clings to, relies on) the Son has (now possesses) eternal life. But whoever disobeys (is unbelieving toward, refuses to trust in, disregards, is not subject to) the Son will never see (experience) life, but [instead] the wrath of God abides on him. [God's displeasure remains on him; His indignation hangs over him continually.]

John 5:24 I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, the person whose ears are open to My words [who listens to My message] and believes and trusts in and clings to and relies on Him Who sent Me has (possesses now) eternal life. And he does not come into judgment [does not incur sentence of judgment, will not come under condemnation], but he has already passed over out of death into life.

John 6:35 Jesus replied, I am the Bread of Life. He who comes to Me will never be hungry, and he who believes in and cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Me will never thirst any more (at any time).

John 6:40 For this is My Father's will and His purpose, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in and cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day.

John 6:47 I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, he who believes in Me [who adheres to, trusts in, relies on, and has faith in Me] has (now possesses) eternal life.

Paul tells us that Jesus didn't call him to baptize (is Paul negating the Great Commission here? I think not!) but to preach. And Paul says he only baptized a few people. And thank goodness for that, he says, because otherwise people might be saying they were baptized in the name of Paul. The Great Commission is in Matthew 28:19,20 records Jesus' words to his disciples to "go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit . . ." This certainly doesn't say we need to be baptized to be saved. And why did Paul say he wasn't called to baptize? It must be because the church as a whole is called to baptize, not us as individuals. How could a wheelchair-bound person baptize someone? Yet we have many Christians who are in wheelchairs. And we have many Christians who are invalids as well. Are they disobeying Jesus' command to baptize? I don't think so. Jesus Himself baptized none. And then the kicker . . . why would Paul leave 99% of his converts half-saved, or, according to some, not saved at all? If baptism were a requirement for salvation, then the majority of people Paul preached to never entered the kingdom of heaven, because, as Paul says himself, he only baptized Crispus, Gaius, and the household of Stephanus. Paul, in his zealousnous for preaching the gospel, and in his obsession for detail, would not leave so many people unsaved.

Act 10:47  Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

These individuals were saved and received the Holy Ghost before baptism in water.

As Jesus had not died yet, they were still under the Old Covenant. Baptism was not a requirement of the Old Law.

The greek word "eis" does not mean "because of" .  The word "eis" is used over 1700 times in the NT, It is always "forward looking" never "backward looking." In Matthew 26:28 there is an identical construction of eis, conjoined with the terms “forgiveness of sins,” just as in Acts 2:38.

In the Matthew text, as he institutes the communion supper, Jesus said: ”. . . this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins.” Even the renowned Baptist scholar, A.T. Robertson, who attempted to twist Acts 2:38 into conformity with his personal theological agenda, was forced to surrender his position when discussing Matthew 26:28.

Of the controversial phrase he stated: “The purpose of the shedding of his blood of the New Covenant was precisely to remove (forgive) sins” (Word Pictures in the New Testament, Nashville: Broadman, 1930, Vol. I, p. 210; emp. WJ).

Also over 23  commonly used, different translations translate the term "eis" as unto or for the remission of sins. 

One does not have to baptize someone to be saved.  I don't believe I ever said that in any of my posts. Just because Paul did not baptize them doesn't mean that they were not baptized.


There is only one baptism
Ephesians 4:5 ASV
(5)  one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

As Peter began to detail the  points of the gospel to Cornelius, the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit was poured out upon this Gentile and his household. This was powerful evidence of the fact that God wanted all men to be partakers of Heaven’s blessings.

Peter therefore asked: “Can any man forbid water that these should not be immersed?” Not a solitary objection was raised. And so the Gentile centurion was commanded to be baptized (Acts 10:44-48).

It is very important to understand that the “baptism of the Holy Spirit,” as that phenomenon was initiated both in Acts 2 and 10, was not a condition for anyone’s personal salvation. It was a miraculous authentication of divinely orchestrated events – unique to those occasions. It is thus not being implemented today as a means to any person’s conversion.

Although it was not called baptism it was still there in the Old Testament. and again in the New Testament before Jesus died on the cross:

Exo 30:20  When they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water, that they die not; or when they come near to the altar to minister, to burn offering made by fire unto the LORD:

Exo 40:12  And thou shalt bring Aaron and his sons unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and wash them with water.

Exo 40:30  And he set the laver between the tent of the congregation and the altar, and put water there, to wash withal.


Mar 1:4  John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.


Joh 1:33  And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.


Mar 1:5  And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.


Mar 1:9  And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

Satisfied MInd, I strongly suggest that you go back to your Bible and stucy it instead of listening to the doctrines of men. Baptism is not a requirement of salvation. As I pointed out above Salvation occurs prior to any such works. Works are not a requirement of salvation but the fruits of salvation. Those that are truly saved will desire to do good works because of their love of God, following what God has told them to do.


People who insist on baptism as a part of salvation usually quote Acts 2:38, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins." They say that if we are not "baptized . . . for the remission of sins" we cannot be forgiven.

Notice the key word repent. The basic condition is for us to agree with God that our sin is a violation of His moral law and to turn in faith to Jesus Christ. In addition, the preposition for [eis] in the phrase "for the remission of sins" does not mean "in order to [be forgiven]." Its basic meaning is "with a view toward" or "in relation to." When Jesus said the people of Nineveh "repented at [eis] the preaching of Jonah" (Lk. 11:32), He was saying they repented "with a view toward" or "in connection with" Jonah's message.

In Acts 2, therefore, Peter was telling the men of Jerusalem to repent and let themselves be baptized "with a view toward" the remission of sins. Their baptism was to be an evidence of their repentance and forgiveness, not a condition for it.

In addition, the following factors show that water baptism is not essential to salvation:

    * Abraham was forgiven before he was circumcised, apart from any rite or ceremony (Rom. 4:9-10).
    * Jesus declared people forgiven before they were baptized (Mt. 9:1-7; Lk. 7:36-50; 18:9-14; 19:1-9; Jn. 8:1-12).
    * Cornelius and his family received the Holy Spirit before baptism (Acts 10:44-48).
    * The Bible shows that forgiveness and salvation are received by faith (Jn. 3:16; Rom. 5:1; 10:1-13; Eph. 2:10).

In the light of these factors, baptism should be seen as an outward act by which we publicly identify with Christ and His church. It is not a requirement for salvation.

Good Works. "But what about works?" some people ask. "Wouldn't it be unfair for God to forgive on the basis of faith alone? Didn't James say that faith without works is dead?"

Without a doubt, good works are important to every Christian. The Bible calls for good works. But good deeds are not a condition for receiving forgiveness (see Rom. 3:27-28).

Ephesians 2:8-10 shows that rather than being a condition for forgiveness, good works are the fruit and evidence of a forgiven life. Those who are saved through faith become God's "workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works" (v.10).

But what about James' statement that "faith without works is dead"? James was saying that genuine faith produces good works. Christlike actions allow us to be justified, or declared right, in the eyes of those around us. It is the way we prove the reality of our faith (Jas. 2:14-26). Our good deeds are not a part of the basis of our forgiveness but a natural result of it.

To summarize: The wonderful message of the Bible is that forgiveness comes through faith alone. It is not faith plus repentance, faith plus baptism, faith plus good works, or faith plus anything!

I don't know where you get your information, but your wrong.

 The first place we need to start is to look back to the original language and the meaning of the Greek word “eis.” What we find is a common Greek word (it is used 1774 times in the New Testament), that is translated many different ways. Like the English word “for” it can have several different meanings. So, again, we see at least two or three possible meanings of the passage, one that would seem to support that baptism is required for salvation and some that would not. While both of the meanings of the Greek word “eis” are seen in different passages of Scriptures, such noted Greek scholars including A.T. Robertson and J.R. Mantey have maintained that the Greek preposition “eis” in Acts 2:38 should be translated “because of,” or “in view of,” and not “in order to,” or “for the purpose of.”

 One example of how this preposition is used in other Scriptures is seen in Matthew 12:41 where we see the word “eis” communicating the “result” of an action. In this case it is said that the people of Nineveh “repented at the preaching of Jonah” (the word translated “at” is the same Greek word “eis”). Clearly, the meaning of this passage is that they repented “because of’” or “as the result of” Jonah’s preaching. In the same way, it would be possible that Acts 2:38 is indeed communicating the fact that they were to be baptized “as the result of” or “because” they already had believed and in doing so had already received forgiveness of their sins (John 1:12; John 3:14-18; John 5:24; John 11:25-26; Acts 10:43; Acts 13:39; Acts 16:31; Acts 26:18; Romans 10:9; Ephesians 1:12-14). This interpretation of the passage is also consistent with the message recorded in Peter’s next two sermons to unbelievers where he associates the forgiveness of sins with the act of repentance and faith in Christ without even mentioning baptism (Acts 3:17-26; Acts 4:8-12).

Another error that is made by those who believe that Acts 2:38 teaches that baptism is required for salvation is what is sometimes called the Negative Inference Fallacy. Simply put this is the idea that just because a statement is true, we cannot assume that all negations (or opposites) of that statement are true. In other words just because Acts 2:38 says “repent and be baptized….for the forgiveness of sins…and the gift of the Holy Spirit,” does not mean that if one repents and is not baptized they will not receive forgiveness of sins or the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 The fact that baptism is not required to receive forgiveness and the gift of the Holy Spirit should also be evident by simply reading a little farther in the book of Acts, In Acts 10:43, Peter tells Cornelius that “through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins” (please note that nothing at this point has been mentioned about being baptized yet Peter connects believing in Christ with the act of receiving forgiveness for sins.) The next thing that happens is, having believed Peter’s message about Christ, the “Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message” (Acts 10:44). It is only after they had believed, and therefore received forgiveness of their sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit, that Cornelius and his household were baptized (Acts 10:47-48). The context and the passage are very clear; Cornelius and his household received both forgiveness of sins and the Holy Spirit before they were ever baptized. In fact, the reason Peter allowed them to be baptized was because they showed evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit “just as Peter and the Jewish believers” had.

My own conclusion, Acts 2:38 does not teach that baptism is required for salvation. While baptism is important as the sign that one has been justified by faith and as the public declaration of one’s faith in Christ and membership in a local body of believers, it is not the means of remission or forgiveness of sins. The Bible is very clear that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone (John 1:12; John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Romans 3:21-30; Romans 4:5; Romans 10:9-10; Ephesians 2:8-10; Philippians 3:9; Galatians 2:16).

Satisfied MInd, you really need to study your bible better. Stop following the doctrine of man, and follow Gods doctrine.

OK, here's my two cents   ;D

The understanding of Acts 2:38 seems to be a hinging point here.  The question is this: is forgiveness of sin, and the gift of the Holy Ghost given to us because we believed, or because we were obidient to the command to be baptized?  If it is because we were baptized, then we are  not born again, and therefore saved, by faith alone.  He holds out on us untill we do something.  If it is the result of faith, because we believed, then being born again has nothing to do with water baptizm.  The Bible says we are saved through faith alone, " For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. (that means apart from obeying a command ) Rom 3:28.  Mt 3:11, Mk 1:8, Lk 3:16, Jn 1:25,26, and 33 state the difference between Johns baptism with water, which we are also commanded to observe, and Jesus' baptism with the Holy Ghost.  "If baptism is something man does, then that would mean man grants the one being baptized the Holy Ghost",-- if the Holy Ghost comes to man in the waters of baptism, . That is why that is not the way it happens.  We are born again through the Spirit when we believe, through faith. Romans 10 :13-17 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?  15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”  17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ."
 Here Paul sets up his argument, concluding with vs. 17 that faith comes from hearing the word of God, he does not say from water baptism. In fact, his rhetorical question in vs. 14, "...and how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard?" reveals his point, that there is only one way: to believe the Word. Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?  Here Paul points out the Holy Ghost is recieved when we believe, not by doing a command. We are told to be baptized.  That is a command, but not so we recieve the Holy Gost.  If it were, then what Paul insinuates in Gal 3:2 is false. There are two different baptisms referred to in these passages, and they reveal that being baptized with water is in fact an act we do.  We are told to do it.  The concept that God sets up a prescribed behavior pattern (baptism) that we can do, and God responds to that act, is occultic in nature.  The occult is all about what we can do to get god (or the gods) to do what we want them to do, and that is exactly why Jesus set up a plan where no man is ever looked to, and exactly why works done by man will never result in Gods favor, only faith in His promise is rewarded.

If in Acts 2:38 Luke was trying to say that forgiveness came through water baptizm, then why, in Acts 10:43 does he only say it comes through believing. The 10:43 passage is clear, and should be used to clarify the muddied 2:38 passage, not the other way arround.  In Acts 2:38-39 the phrase, "...and you will recieve the Holy Ghost" reveals the result of repentance, not of being baptized with water.  The Holy Ghost is recieved as a result of believing, as Paul points out.  Repentance is the responce of believing, and being baptized with water is the outward expression of that faith.  Just one chapter later, in Acts 3:19,20, the theological position held in Acts 2:38 is repeated by the same person, and recorded by the same author : Acts 3:19,20" Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20 and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. "  We must understand Acts 2:38, in the light of the more clearly expressed Acts 3:19,20, otherwise, we end up with a contradiction in scripture. 

Teaching, and makeing Disciples are about the same thing, and don't change the meaning at all.  Both include the idea of a continuing process, transferring knowlege and understanding.  You can't teach, or make disciples in a one time event, and thats why you can't make a disciple by baptizing them--a one time event.  It is not the case that "teaching observance" and "baptizing" are tools to make disciples with, because it is not us that brings people to faith, it is God.  We only carry the message.  This concept you promote here is not pointing to Jesus' act on the cross, but our own act in bringing people to faith, therefore it is not from the Holy Spirit, since He only points to Jesus.  A better understanding of what the passage says is: "Go, make disciples...teach them by example to obey...and also baptize.  Baptizing, and teaching, are verbs, they describe an action we are told  to do.  The baptizm of the Holy Ghost is not something we do, but water baptism is.   Since baptizing is something we do, and Jesus told us to do it, and to be baptized ourselves, then obeying, and becomeing baptized is obediance to the command.  We can not be saved by obediance to a command..........................

OOps, that was only one cent, here's the other one  ;D

......................Acts 22:16 says ,"Get up, be baptized..."  thats two things to do, ..."and wash your sins away"  Something you do does not wash your sins away, so this passage is not saying that washing sins away is a result of being baptized.  It is assuming the understanding that before a person submits to the outward sign of water baptism, the faith that prompts obediance to the command is allready in place.  Sins are washed away because we believe the Word, and the act of baptism as they did it, by submersion, is the illustration of what takes place spiritually upon believing the Word and the resulting spiritual baptism of the receiving of the Holy Ghost,  which John the Baptist said Jesus does.  Romans 6:3-4 illustrates the picture.  Paul uses the picture of full immersion in water as the burial, and the comeing out of the water is the illustration of the ressurection with Jesus to a knew life.  Here again it is not the result of what we do, but the picture of what allready happened the moment we believed and were born again.  Romans 3:27 does not say we clothed ourselves (or were clothed) as a result of being baptized.  Paul merely points out by useing an outward expression of faith that we are clothed in righteusness.  There again, it assumes the understanding that the reason for the act, was faith allready present.  If the act of being baptized was not a responce of faith, it is reduced to a ritual by which something can be gained.  God responds to the condition of our heart towards Him, not to the position of our bodies-that would be more like occult theology than the Bible.  1 Peter 3:21,  "and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ".  What water is it that symbolizes baptism?  The water of the flood that originated in two places.  It rained down from the heavens, and broke forth from the earth.  When a person is baptized with the Holy Ghost, He is rained down from Heaven, and wells up within, floating the Christian above the grasp of the world, drownding the world and those who choose to stay in it, cleansing us from it. Peter defines the act of baptizm here, as the plege of a good concience before God. Not an outword result, but an inward one.  It's a plege, an outward statement of the condition, and commitment,  of our heart towards God, made possible only by the last scentance of that vs., by the ressurecction of Jesus.  1Cor 6:11   And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.   The vs. says that the 'acts'...washed...sanctified...justified were done, in the name of  Jesus, by the Holy Spirit.  It has nothing to do with water baptism.  Titus 3:5-7 has nothing to do with baptism by water.  It is talking about baptism by the Holy Ghost.  Nowhere in the context of the passage is Paul even referencing water baptism.  The passage even says, "...washing of rebirth...BY the Holy Spirit.  In Eph 2:8-9 Paul said that we are saved by grace, through faith...without works.  The result of faith, is salvation.  Faith itself is the result of believing the word of God.  How then can Paul turn right arround and say that we are saved by baptism with water, only 3 chapters later in the same letter?  The only answer is; he isn't.  Paul is saying we are saved by  faith, and it is professed by obediance to the command to be baptized, faith that came to us through believing the Word.    In Eph. 5:26, there are two prepositional phrases; 'by the washing of water', and 'with the word'.  Both modify the verb, 'cleansed' .  The passage says the church was cleansed--with the word, and, by the washing with water.  1 Peter 3:21 qualifies how we are cleansed ' by the washing with water'; as the plege of a clear concience toward God, again, calling up the picture of dying to the world and being resurrected again in Christ--the way Paul was trying to illustrate how men are to live with their wives--as dead to self, but alive toward her.

Peter recognized in Acts 10 & 11 that Cornelius, and his household were baptized with the Holy Ghost before they were baptized with water.  What did jesus say to the thief on the cross?  He said, "Today you will be with Me in paradise.  The thief was not baptized.  Water baptism is not nessesary to be saved, but faith is.

Forgive me if this seems a little disjointed...it is.  I just cut and pasted this from an argument I wrote to my uncle, who is a Lutheran pastor, and holds the exact view expressed in the last few posts.

Excellent posts PR & DW  :)

"It is very important to understand that"...that statement is false.  The baptism of the Holy Ghost is most certainly a condition of salvation...at least Jesus said it was, so I gotta float my boat with Him.

Jn 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”

1 Peter 1:23
23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Amen. We are also told:

Luk 3:16  John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Luk 3:17  Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

The baptism of the Holy Ghost is an event that still happens today. If this was not true then that would be to say that no one today is being saved. Just because a person does not speak in tongues or other such things does not mean they are not being baptized by the Holy Ghost. That simply means they are not being bestowed with those particular gifts. To be baptized with the Holy Ghost simply means that the Holy Ghost is now residing within your heart, your heart has been washed with the Holy Spirit.


2Co 1:22  Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Matthew 10:37
37 “Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;


What I believe that passage is saying, is that if someone chooses to be loyal to the opinion of a person, church, denomination...ect. instead of to Him...

Why do you believe what you believe?  Is it because that is what Jesus revealed to you in His written word, or because someone told you that is what it says?  If you choose to believe what someone said the Bible says, then you're placeing your trust in the person who told you what the Bible said, and not in Jesus, aren't you?

Once upon a time, I believed what someone said was in the Bible, and would have stood shoulder to shoulder with you SatisfiedMind, arguing the same position...untill I read it myself.

Brothers and Sisters,

I have read this thread and reflected on many things that are completely true and beautiful.

1 - The CROSS is the most precious event in human history, and many things changed. It's interesting that JESUS CHRIST did not reveal everything that his crucifixion would result in. In fact, JESUS revealed very little. JESUS CHRIST was made manifest in the flesh, Very GOD, and he was born, lived, and died under the Mosaic Law. In more ways than one, JESUS CHRIST conquered the curse of sin and death on the CROSS, and HE completed the work of Salvation most perfectly. The work of JESUS CHRIST was and is so perfect that there is NOTHING that man can add or take away from it. When JESUS CHRIST said "It is finished" on the CROSS, it was FINISHED and is the ONLY perfect Sacrifice for our sins.

2 - Our Salvation today depends on our belief in JESUS CHRIST, who HE was and is, and what HE did for us on the CROSS in our place. Our faith and trust in JESUS CHRIST is the only way for Salvation. Our Salvation in all REALITY is FAITH ALONE IN JESUS CHRIST ALONE! HE did arise from the dead on the third day and is our LIVING Lord and Saviour. Everything about SALVATION IS ALIVE FOR ETERNITY! GOD the FATHER is real and alive, GOD the SON is real and alive, GOD the HOLY SPIRIT is real and alive - YET, the THREE are ONE!

3 - At the very moment that we accept JESUS CHRIST as LORD and SAVIOUR, many beautiful things happen immediately and many other Promises of GOD are put into effect that are absolute and will be accomplished at HIS appointed time. Immediately at the moment of Salvation:

• We are TRANSLATED into the BODY OF CHRIST and become a purchased possession of JESUS CHRIST forever!
• We are Baptized by the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD, the HOLY SPIRIT enters our hearts and stays for eternity, our hearts are SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD as a pledge of eternal life and the many other Promises of GOD. NO power in the universe can break the SEAL WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD. Please note "WITH" not "BY". "BY" may indicate that the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD SEALS the heart of the new believer and leaves. "WITH" is the absolute REALITY that the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD is the SEAL and HE stays in the heart of the new believer, actually making the heart of the believer as a TEMPLE OF THE LIVING GOD for HIS abode forever. In the absence of the HOLY SPIRIT, the person is not saved and JESUS CHRIST does NOT know that person.
• The sins of the new believer are washed away as if they had never happened. The BLOOD of JESUS CHRIST on the CROSS is the ONLY PERFECT ATONEMENT.
• A new believer is made fit through JESUS CHRIST immediately to become a child of GOD and receive the inheritance of the Saints in LIGHT. If the new believer physically dies 10 seconds after becoming SAVED, ALL of the PROMISES of GOD will be fulfilled perfectly and eternally.
• The old man of sin is crucified with Christ, and the new child of GOD is BORN of incorruptible SEED. Here we see the term of "BORN AGAIN", and this REALITY is IMMEDIATE.
• Now we go back to the first REALITY - THE WORK OF SALVATION WAS FINISHED PERFECTLY BY JESUS CHRIST ON THE CROSS. We did nothing to earn or deserve Salvation, and we can do NOTHING to maintain Salvation. That WORK is done by JESUS CHRIST, and no power in the universe can pluck us out of HIS Mighty HANDS!
• We are seen in and through JESUS CHRIST, and HE is the ONLY ONE who makes us fit for the eternal Promises of GOD. Apart from JESUS CHRIST, we don't have any righteousness or any other attribute that makes us fit to be the children of GOD. If we die, we are absent from the body and present with JESUS CHRIST. Our physical bodies are corruptible, and they will be changed to incorruptible bodies that are glorified by GOD at HIS appointed time.

Brothers and Sisters, I never get tired of hearing these precious truths. They are the promises of GOD, and all will be perfectly fulfilled at GOD'S appointed time. The things that happen immediately at the moment of Salvation are a precious REALITY made possible only by the BLOOD of JESUS and HIS perfect Sacrifice on the CROSS. These immediate things that happen at the moment of Salvation should fill our hearts with love and appreciation for our Lord and Saviour, JESUS CHRIST. We will hear and feel the guidance of the HOLY SPIRIT living in our hearts forever. If we listen and yield, the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD will guide us and lead us in all things. We are KEPT by GOD, not by ourselves! In terms of our Salvation, we should KNOW beyond any doubt at all that we didn't deserve it, rather it was a GIFT from our GREAT GOD of Love and Grace to every man or woman who will believe in JESUS CHRIST and accept HIM as Lord and Saviour. We are left with saying:


Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:1-2 NASB  Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Colossians 2:13-17 NASB  When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him. Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day -- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

1 John 1:3 NASB  what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1:6 NASB  For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Colossians 1:13-14 NASB  For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

1 John 5:4-5 NASB  For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Romans 1:16-17 NASB  For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.  For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Romans 10:8-10 NASB  But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

          AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree we must have faith!  For without faith it is impossible to please him(Heb 11:6)  But what kind of Faith?  An obedient one!  (Matt 7:20) How are we obedient?  By following his commands. If we love him we will keep his commandments.(John 14:15)  What are his commandments?  Believe(Mark 16:16)  Repentance(Acts 2:38)  Confessing his name(Romans 10:9-10) and being baptized(Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38) 

It is the blood of Christ that washes away are sins. I think we all agree on that.  How do we contact that blood?  Through baptism.  We are baptized into his death.  How can one arise and walk in newness of life unless they have been baptized?  We are buried with Christ in baptism.

Romans 6:1-16 ASV
(1)  What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
(2)  God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein?
(3)  Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
(4)  We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.
(5)  For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection;
(6)  knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin;
(7)  for he that hath died is justified from sin.
(8)  But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him;
(9)  knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death no more hath dominion over him.
(10)  For the death that he died, he died unto sin once: but the life that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
(11)  Even so reckon ye also yourselves to be dead unto sin, but alive unto God in Christ Jesus.
(12)  Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey the lusts thereof:
(13)  neither present your members unto sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves unto God, as alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
(14)  For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under law, but under grace.
(15)  What then? shall we sin, because we are not under law, but under grace? God forbid.
(16)  Know ye not, that to whom ye present yourselves as servants unto obedience, his servants ye are whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

It is not the act of baptism that saves us.  Just being "dunked" is not all there is.  It is an act of obedient faith. We must also repent of our sins. If we do not repent, we are just getting wet.  It is total submission to Christ as our Saviour. If all it took was faith, why then was Saul of Tarsus not saved on the road to Damascus?  The Lord himself told him to go into the city and he would be told what to do.(Acts 9:5-6)  He was told by Annanias to arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins calling on the name of the Lord (Acts 22:16) 

We must live as faithful Christians after being saved.(Revelation 2:10) 

I hope I have made my point a little clearer to you all.  Thanks for the discussion!  I hope I do not appear to be harsh or judgemental in any way, as I do not believe any of you have done so either.  Hopefully we can continue further discussion!

IMO...

The Acts 22 reference should be read as, "...wash your sins away calling on His name".  The prepositional phrase "by calling on His name" modifies the action "wash".  Being baptized is a seperate thought and action, prompted by the faith allready present, wich compells the believer from inside to obey.  It is not our behavior of obediance that demonstrates faith, but the compelling force within that does.  Since we are no longer under law, we are not bound to obey, but as believers we are compelled to.  Same behavior, different reasons for it.

Hello 1Tim and Satisfied Mind,

I'm going to give you just one thought, and maybe the two of you can argue this out. I'll be interested to see how you wish to handle this Bible fact.

1 - Baptism with the Holy Spirit does not involve water, dunking, sprinkling, etc., yet there is no Salvation without the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. The Apostle Paul was given the revelations of the CROSS and all that the CROSS meant by GOD. The Apostle Paul bluntly teaches there is only one Baptism and God did not send him to Baptize with water. The Baptism you are talking about is by men with water, and the Baptism that the Apostle Paul talked about was done by THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD.

Now, here is the question that you can argue about. If the Apostle Paul was telling the truth and there is only ONE BAPTISM, which one would you choose and why:  1) Baptism by men with water; 2) Baptism by the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD without water? I'll give you a hint to help you get started. The Bible makes it abundantly clear that no man was ever saved by works, by obeying the Law, or being Baptized with water. In fact, there have been hosts of people down through the ages who were Baptized with water and were never saved. This should give you a lively discussion that I hope you enjoy.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 4:1 NASB  Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called,
Ephesians 4:2 NASB  with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love,
Ephesians 4:3 NASB  being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Ephesians 4:4 NASB  There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;
Ephesians 4:5 NASB  one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Ephesians 4:6 NASB  one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

I think you have added a word "by"  that is not there.  I totally agree that getting baptized is prompted by the faith already present.  But it is all of the things combined,  belief, repentance, confession, and being baptized that cements that faith and obedience to the Lord. 

I do not find where one saved by the baptism of the Holy Spirit. 

The scriptures tell us that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was promised to the Apostles only

John 14:26(spoken right before the crucifixion)
John 15:26(spoken before crucifixion)
John 16:7, 13(spoken before crucifixion)]
Luke 24:49(after crucifixion, before ascension)
Acts 1:5-8(after crucifixion, before ascension)

It is not promised to anyone else in the Bible

The context of Acts 1:26 ; 2:1-4 ; and 2:6-8 ; 2:14; 2:37 shows only Apostles received

The purpose of it was to guide the Apostles into all Truth (John 14:26)

To confirm the Apostles and the message as being from God(Heb. 2:3-4)

To facilitate the spread of the Gospel(Acts 2:9-11)

If people today received it there would be the same results today as then.
There would be doctrinal unity(Eph. 4:4-6)
If so, what would be the purpose?   We have the Bible.  What would it accomplish or prove, that the proper use of scriptures accomplish and prove?

So to answer your question I believe there is only one baptism.  Immersion, in water, for the remission of sins.

I have seen no one in the Bible who was baptized into Christ, that was not saved.  Those that were baptized by John obviously were not baptized into Christ, as he had not died yet.

Also, Jesus Christ himself says in Mark
Mark 16:16 ASV
(16)  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.

That's because you are keeping your eyes closed. John was not talking to just the Apostles in these verses. Again you need to read and study the Bible.


Luk 3:16  John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Luk 3:17  Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

This is not talking of baptism in water as it quite plainly says "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh".

1Pe 3:21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

And the following verses again are not in regards to the Apostles.

Rom 5:5  And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.


1Co 6:19  What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

AMEN Pastor Roger

Jeremiah 5:21 Hear now this, O foolish people without understanding or heart, who have eyes and see not, who have ears and hear not:

Yes we receive an indwelling of the Holy Spirit when we are saved, but we are not baptized with the Holy Spirit

In regards to 1 Peter 3:21, you need to go back to the preceding verse to get the full context. 

1 Peter 3:20-22 ASV
(20)  that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:
(21)  which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;
(22)  who is on the right hand of God, having gone into heaven; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Noah was saved through water as we are saved through baptism as we are buried with him and resurrected to wealk in a newness of life.

from Coffman's commentary on it.

It was the water of the flood which washed away the filth of that evil generation; and it is the water of Christian baptism that, in a figure, washes away the sins of Christians (Acts 22:16). There is a variation in the figure here, which Peter pointed out; namely, that, whereas it was actual filth that was washed away by the flood, it is moral and spiritual filth which are washed away in baptism. The former affected the flesh and not the conscience; the latter affected the conscience but not the flesh.

So...once baptized allways saved???

Notice that the result of salvation in both passages is the remission of sin and the gift of the Holy Spirit.  The two conditions of salvation are also the same in both passages.  First, both Acts 2:38 and Acts 10:43 demand a change of mind about who is Jesus Christ.  Acts 10:43 says He is one to whom all the prophets gave witness.  What Peter says demonstrates the same truth in Acts chapter 2 by quoting the prophets Joel and David to prove his point.  Secondly, Acts 10:43 has "…through His name whosoever believeth in Him" as a condition of salvation.  This is equivalent to the condition of Acts 2:38 to "be baptized (washed) in the name of Jesus Christ."  So we find the phrase "Be baptized (washed) in His name," means the same as "through His name believe in Him."

Also, please notice that Acts 2:38 tells us the Holy Spirit is received as the gift of God.  If we had to do anything of ourselves to receive the Holy Spirit, it would not be a gift.  Remember Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

To insist upon a repentance that in any sense includes a change of conduct either toward God or man is to add an element of human effort to faith.  This would contradict all clear Scripture on this matter such as Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 4:5; Galatians 2:16; and others.

To insist upon water baptism in Acts 2:38 would make the remission of sins and the receiving of the gift of the Holy Spirit dependent upon the human work of water baptism.  This would be inconsistent with Acts 10:43-44, where the remission of sin and the gift of the Holy Spirit are received as the result of faith only.  The Bible would contradict itself and we would be left confused.

Have you recognized Jesus Christ as the Savior which died for your sins, was buried and was raised from the dead?  Have you been washed of your sins in His name?   I Corinthians 6:11 And such some of you were [once]. But you were washed clean (purified by a complete atonement for sin and made free from the guilt of sin), and you were consecrated (set apart, hallowed), and you were justified [pronounced righteous, by trusting] in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the [Holy] Spirit of our God.  If not, then trust Jesus Christ as your Savior today and receive the remission of your sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

And this is my last post to y'all in this thread. 

Resting in the hands, of the Lord.
Bob

Jeremiah 5:21 Hear now this, O foolish people without understanding or heart, who have eyes and see not, who have ears and hear not:

 ??? ??? You are quite confused. When the Holy Spirit indwells us we are indeed baptized with the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit that washes (baptizes) us spiritually. The Bible speaks of Baptizing in two manners. One spiritually and ont physically. They are indeed two very distinct occurences.



Yes, verse 20 of 1 Peter 3 does amplify verse 21 quite well. It tells us that the physical baptism of water is a "likeness" to the baptism that is spoken of here. Not the exact same thing. The physical baptism in water wahes away the fiflth of the flesh. That is what happens when you take a bath or a shower. You get rid of the physical dirt and stench. It does not rid us of the spiritual dirt and stench.

As Jesus told the Pharisees it is more important to clean the inside of the cup and platter than it is the outside of the cup and platter. And how do we do this? Not by anything that we can do. It is done by the Holy Spirit as He enters us.

2Co 10:7  Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? ......


Joh 1:33  And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.


1Jo 5:10  He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.


Joh 4:10  Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Also as we see in the verses where John is baptizing with water it is Johns own words that tell us that such baptism is from man not from God but that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is from God. Personally I would much rather be baptized by God than by man alone.

If we are faithful.

Revelation 2:10 ASV
(10)  Fear not the things which thou art about to suffer: behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days. Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee the crown of life.

1 John 1:7 ASV
(7)  but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 1:9 ASV
(9)  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:1-3 ASV
(1)  My little children, these things write I unto you that ye may not sin. And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
(2)  and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.
(3)  And hereby we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

How many ways are there we can be saved?

God sent Jesus Christ, His only Son, so that we might have new, everlasting life. The Bible tells us, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). By His death and resurrection, Jesus paid for our salvation. He broke the power of sin and death, making it possible for us to have everlasting life. The life of God raised Jesus from the dead and He was the first born Son into the kingdom of God.



Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/tinabaran/trustinginjesus.gif)

to Satisfied mind:

It seems that I owe you an appology if you feel that I have decided to "pick and choose" verses to fit my
personal opinions! Please investigate into some of my others posts, and you will quickly see that this is not
at all what I portray!

I chose Rom 10:13 specifically because of the verses that preceed . Rom 10:9-10 to be more precise.
I most strongly advocate repentance, submission to the spirit, verbally calling upon the mighty name of
Jesus, and all the other points you brought into question!

The dificulty is that we can not , due to time and space, completely present our full doctine each time a point
is being made. I was simply attempting to address the question, not present a disortation of faith!

respectfully yours in Yeshua ha machiach:

Rev. Joseph E. Barnhouse Sr.  (ravenloche)

Apology accepted, although not needed!  :)   I know it is hard(for me anyway) to adequetly express myself and what I believe the Bible teaches in a way that is thorough, but not condecesing, judgemental or mean spirited via these message boards.  I guess sometimes I try to condense somethings and, then leave something out and it may come across to you or others the same way as picking and choosing.  I do enjoy these discussions! 

If we look at the context , it is not about salvation . In v36 Peter is accusing them crucifiying , both Lord and Christ. Then in v37 his hearers were pricked in there hearts and ask Peter  what shall we do ? Do about what ? we killed Him , and we can bring Him back from the dead ? Peter says REPENT  ( repent of what  , THE murder of Christ ) then Peter tells them tobe baptized, and to me , this Not salvation , but repentance of Christ murder.

I see serveral reason why Acts 2:38 is not used for today. One it is a Jewish Feast, Peter in his Pentecost address is acussing those present of the murder of their Messiah. Then they say what shall we do ? The question is , do about what ? We killed Him , and that blood is on our hands. Peter than tells them to repent and be baptized, and please notice , it is only Jews who are baptized.    BUT Matt 28: 19 is very different answer. The formula is to be used to the whole world, and IS PART OF THE ABRAHAMIC COVENANT.

To me I see , that in Acts 2:38 where Peter is accusing them of the murder of their Messiah. they repond with what shall we do ? What can they do , they killed him, and we can't bring him back. Peter than tells them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins  ( for the murder ) and they will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. I say that only Jews can receive this baptism and that why it not used. But in Matt 28: 19 this baptism is to the world and has to be used with the Abrahamic Covenant, and this baptism will not be force ,because it is future.

This baptism is not just for the Jews and is very much alive today

Joel 2
28 "And afterward,
       I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
       Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
       your old men will dream dreams,
       your young men will see visions.
29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
       I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

Acts 2:39
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

Romans 10
12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,

Galatians 3
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colosians 3
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

I have to  disagree. The Body of Christ is NOT, NOT, NOT in view here, and if it is give verse where it is, please. The words in v39 are NOT for the Body and there is not a scintilla of proof that Peter know what yet had not been written, about the Body of Christ , since it was hid in God , and only revealed to the Apostle Paul after Acts 9.  Acts 2:38 is about the killing of Jesus and the Body of Christ was NOT yet in existence, and the Jews of that time said, WHAT SHALL WE DO ? Peter told them what to do, repent and be baptized, AND THIS COULD ONLY HAPPEN FOR THAT TIME ONLY.  Only Jews said , " what shall we do " ?

Hello Dan P,

You're completely correct. When we study the Holy Bible, we must remember that the Twelve were Apostles to the Jews ("The Circumcision"). The Twelve had no clue what the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST was. This was a secret not made known to men of other ages, so the Twelve had never even heard about it. The Twelve only found out about the BODY OF CHRIST when the Apostle Paul taught them. We must also remember that the Apostle Paul had problems throughout his ministry with others trying to install Jewish Legal practices in the churches that Paul started. The Apostle Paul even held conferences to stop the attempted Judaizing of the Gentile Churches. This was a matter of great controversy at the time, so the words of the Apostle Paul about this problem were BOLD and BLUNT.

The confusion of the Twelve was natural and expected. They were waiting for an earthly Kingdom with JESUS CHRIST as King and Messiah. The Apostle Paul had a better HOPE that he shared with the Twelve. The Twelve did accept it as the TRUTH eventually, mainly because it was the TRUTH. However, the earthly Kingdom with JESUS CHRIST as King is a future event that is also the Complete TRUTH. Israel will be restored after the SECOND COMING OF CHRIST, and CHRIST will rule as the KING over the earth from the throne of David in Jerusalem. As Christians, we ALREADY have a Heavenly Kingdom. CHRIST is already our KING, and we've already been rescued from the curse of sin and death. As Christians, we already have a Heavenly HOME, and we're just waiting to go HOME to mansions already prepared for us by GOD. We aren't waiting to be RESTORED. If we physically die, "Absent from the body - present with the LORD". We do await our Promised Glorified Body because flesh and blood can't receive our waiting Heavenly Inheritance.

Galatians 2:19-21  For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.  20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.  21  I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

We will find many other like passages in the writing of the Apostle Paul because this was a big problem he dealt with for his entire ministry.

Galatians 1:6-12  I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:  7  Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.  8  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.  9  As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.  10  For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.  11  But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.  12  For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Seeing the relationship between faith and works coming into focus I gently and deferentially dip my toe into the waters of your forum by paraphasing and emphasizing a collection of relevant passages from James and Galatians.
They touch on the transition from God’s promise to Abraham, through the Law and The Prophets, and onto Christ’s fulfilment of God’s promise that ‘Faith’, such as evidenced by appropriate ‘Works’, would be accountable for righteousness.

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel.
Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
So the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

That no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, the just shall live by faith.

Now, it was to Abraham and his seed that the promises were made.
For he saith not, and to seeds, as of many, but as of one; and to thy seed, which is Christ.
And this I say, that the covenant (or promise), that was confirmed before of God in Christ, cannot be disannulled and made of none effect by the law, which came four hundred and thirty years later.
For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
What purpose then serveth the law?
It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made.
Is the law then against the promises of God?
God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
There is now therefore neither Jew nor Greek, neither bond nor free, neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

As to the law whosoever shall keep it, and yet offend in one point, is guilty of all.
So what doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works?
Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Can faith save him?
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, whereas I have works:
Shew me thy faith without works, and I will shew thee my faith by works.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought by Abraham’s works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness:

Thou, O man, thinkest that thy faith is sufficient?
Thou believest that there is one God?.... thou doest well:
Do not the devils also believe, and tremble?

But wilt thou, O vain man, know that faith without works is dead?
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Hello Theophilocrates,

I see that you're new, so WELCOME!


I sincerely hope that you enjoy Christians Unite.

I do disagree with you, but I'm not going to argue the point. I'll simply say that faith ALONE in Christ is accounted as righteousness. In fact, it's Christ's Righteousness imputed to our account - BECAUSE we have NONE of our own. Works have nothing to do with obtaining Salvation or keeping Salvation. A man or woman with NO works can be Saved and stay saved. There are portions of Scripture that exhort (urge) Christians to do good works - but NOT for Salvation. There are also portions of Scripture that point out that works and conduct are part of our Living Testimony before men. There are still other portions of Scripture that clearly promise rewards above and beyond Salvation for good works. However, Good Works have nothing to do with obtaining or keeping Salvation. Salvation has always been by the Grace and Love of GOD through our faith. This is true before and after the CROSS. Faith Alone results in Salvation. Other things are an expression of our love and appreciation. Good Works are just one way to express our love and appreciation. Without Good Works, our FAITH appears to be dead before men in our personal testimony. A SAVED person without Good Works will NOT receive rewards above and beyond Salvation, but they are still saved. In short, Good Works are urged and should be natural for nearly all SAVED people, but Good Works have never been required.

Romans 11:6  And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

2 Timothy 1:9  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Romans 4:1-25  What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?  2  For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.  3  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.  4  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.  5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.  6  Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,  7  Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.  8  Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.  9  Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.  10  How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.  11  And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:  12  And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.  13  For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.  14  For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:  15  Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.  16  Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,  17  (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.  18  Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.  19  And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:  20  He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;  21  And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.  22  And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.  23  Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;  24  But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;  25  Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

By the way, I believe strongly in Good Works, BUT not for OR to keep Salvation. NO man has anything worthy to give for Salvation or to keep Salvation. SO, Salvation is by GOD'S Grace, GOD'S Love, and our FAITH Alone in JESUS CHRIST. Any Work associated with Salvation has already been completed Perfectly by GOD. By the way, differences are ONLY eliminated in CHRIST! GOD still knows the difference between the lost and the Saved. GOD also knows the difference between CHRIST'S CHURCH and Israel.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Hello BEP (Tom)
But I didn't express an opinion ???
Unless you mean "relevant passages from James and Galatians touch on the transition from God’s promise to Abraham, through the Law and The Prophets, and onto Christ’s fulfilment of God’s promise that ‘Faith’, such as evidenced by appropriate ‘Works’, would be accountable for righteousness"
But your reply didn't seem to indicate that as being what you disagreed with.
After all, I didn't suggest that it was the 'appropriate works' that would be accountable for righteousness.
I simply agreed with the scripture that said that it was the 'faith', (such as was evidenced by 'appropriate works') that would beaccountable for righteousness.
Sorry if you misunderstood me.

Hello Theophilocrates,

I didn't misunderstand you. I understood completely. Your paraphrase emphasis on works is what I disagree with. You stated it again in this post. Remove "WORKS" completely when talking about Salvation, and you'll have the Bible Answer. Faith Alone in CHRIST is how we are SAVED. If one wants to insert "WORKS", they would be the WORKS of GOD - not man. FAITH is the only worthy thing that man has to give. Man's OWN righteousness is as filthy rags. The ONLY righteousness a SAVED person has is the Righteousness IMPUTED to him or her from CHRIST. If we wanted to discuss something OTHER than Salvation, our good works could enter the picture.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Hi again BEP (Tom),

Looks like we have to gently banter towards an agreement, or at least an understanding, if possible.
I don't want to over elaborate or appear to 'Spam' but I'm now going to spend some time reproducing my post without emphasis, and with quotes indicating chapter and verse source of  everything that I posted.(I added no words of my own)

But I may perhaps faintly colour all references to works so that you can see how much it diminishes scripture by such removal as you suggest.
If it appears to be costructive I'll be back.
Thanks for your patience.

That would be a waste of time for me. I wouldn't be interested. In fact, my part of this debate is over. Someone else can argue with you over semantics if they want to, but I don't want to.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Amen, brother. Many attempt to use the book of James in order to bring works back in as a requirement of salvation. This is not what James said. It is the works of God and none of our own that is shown through us that James speaks of. I agree completely that it is a waste of time to argue over it. Those that do only wish to glorify themselves instead of God and His wonderful and merciful works.

Amen Pastor Roger!

Brother, James is much like Hebrews in that both are extremely beautiful books that can add great joy to the lives of Christians. However, these two beautiful books are often misunderstood, and the misunderstanding causes great confusion. Both are worthy of however much time it takes to understand them. One does have to refer to many other portions of the Bible to do that, and putting things into context is a must. Isolated portions of Scripture are almost certain to cause confusion.

I'll just give thanks that most Christians depend entirely on the completed and PERFECT work of JESUS CHRIST on the CROSS. Man depending on himself is already a proven disaster. ALL of mankind is desperate for a SAVIOUR who is Perfect, Holy, NEVER fails, and is completely RIGHTEOUS. JESUS CHRIST is the only ONE who fills these desperate needs.

Love In Christ,
Tom