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I have looked through the board and I have not found a discussion on this topic. My question is simple can someone still be a christian and deny the work of the Lord through apostolic succession?

Apostolic succession, is a falicy of the RCC. False teaching of the Church, are not limited to just the RCC though. The Mormons, Latter-Day Saints of Jesus Christ also teach of this false teachings. Though the LDS claims that apostolic succession was broken during the Great Apostasy, or falling away from the teachings of Jesus Christ, and later restored in America.

Apostolic succession, all Catholic bishops say they can have their lineage of predecessors traced back to the time of the apostles. This is impossible since all tax census records were destroyed back in 66-70 AD. The court was destroyed in 66-70 AD during the siege of Jerusalem. With those record destroyed, there is no proof, for a claim of apostolic succession.

Well I have proof, I am related to two saints by the Catholic Church. Begga, and Itta, are my ancestors. Does this mean that they are better, then I am? No, all it means is that they followed the Catholic Church.

For the Catholic Church says to confess your sins, to your father (Abba). My Father is God, not a man. Right there is proof that I can't follow any teachings of the Catholic Church.

Hello, this is my first post and thought it would be appropriate if I introduced myself.  My handle is Lou, but you can call me Louie or Luis or whatever.  I'm not bothered by any.  I would like to say DreamWeaver that I have read a lot of your posts as well as Pastor Roger's posts and have to tell you that I enjoy them immensely because I see sound doctrine as well as a shepard's heart to protect the sheep.  Neither of you have ever watered down the gospel nor have you added anything to the gospel.  So thanks.

Pius, I have read your posts as well and hope that you consider the replys you have received with an open heart.  Like you, I grew up catholic.  Sign of the cross passing a church, no meat on Fridays, prayed the rosary, the works.  One day, in an attempt to educate those who would say my beliefs were wrong, I picked up the bible and began to read it.  Pius, this is what I urge you to do.  Open the word of God and through it He will speak to you.

Pray before you read.  Do not harden your heart.  Go into it with an honest heart.  When I read it the first time I prayed "Some say this about you, others say something else.  I don't know who you are but I want to.  So whoever this book says you are, that's the Jesus I'm going to follow."  It will change your life, and regarding your religion, you will be amazed at what the word of God has to say about it.

Remember as you read, that God cannot contradict himself, nor has He ever.  He will not say one thing in His word and then give a man authority to contradict it.  It is a wicked and uncaring god who seeks to confuse his children.  And that just ain't our God.   Good luck in your search for the truth.  I will be praying for you.

I know it doesn't sound like I addressed your original question, but I think I know where you were going with it, and chose to address that instead.  God Bless.

Louie

AMEN!!

I see this is your first post here Lou. So hello Lou, and welcome to Christians Unite forums. Thank you for the kind words, to Pastor Roger and myself. Please join in with fellowship of the Lord.

Resting in the hands, of the Lord.
Bob

2 Kings 6:3 One said, Be pleased to go with your servants. He answered, I will go.

Hi lou,

Welcome to Chrisitans Unite. I thank you also for the kinds words but all thanks and praise belong to God and none of my own.

I must say that in your addressing this situation that you have also answered the main topic of this thread even though some may not see it that way and quite eloquently at that.

I hope to see many more posts from you.

Thank you both for being so welcoming.  It's a great site!

Another Amen Lou!

First, I want to WELCOME! you to Christians Unite.


I really like what you said about praying before studying the Holy Bible. You are so RIGHT about this advice. The Holy Spirit of God will open our eyes and hearts for the study of God's Word, and we see and understand what God wants us to.

I'm looking forward to reading your posts and having fellowship with you.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 1:6 NASB  For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Lou, first I want to welcome you to CU, I am so happy when a brother or sister join us and have a sound knowledge of the Word of God.
Second, I want to compliment you on your reply to pious, and thirdly you seem to be very wise, first reading the posts and making sure that this is a 'real' Christian forum. You seem to have familiarized yourself with some of our brothers. I look forward to reading more of your posts.
In Christ,
Maria

Thanks again guys.  Nice to be here.  Maria, I did go to the different threads and purposely went to the posts of those marked moderator and took note of how they responded. I am familiar with you as well Tom, and your welcoming post is greatly appreciated.

Louie

1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

AMEN! No matter what your background is, that's great advice!  :D

And ain't that the truth!  :D

You got it right.  Many,even those we call inteligent or genuises can not understand the Word of God.  The Bible though written by men is inspired by God, so only those that have the Holy Spirit that guide them will understand the Word of God. Without wisodm coming from God we will misinterpret the Bible.

Welcome to christiansunite Lou.  I am still new here but i learned a lot. This site is great!!!

Blad

Then you must know that we like to have some fun too  ;D  ;D  ;D

The number one problem with the concept of apostolic succession is the definition of an apostle.  An apostle was an apostle because:

1.  They personally witnessed the risen Christ.
2.  They were personally taught by Christ.
3.  They were personally called an apostle by Christ.

See a common thread?  My problem with this "succession" is that in order for it to meet the defenition, both historically and scripturally, Jesus is still giving us further revelation.  This is, biblically speaking, heresy.

I don't really know what Apostolic Succession is, but I promise to look it up!

I grew up Roman Catholic, during the 60's and 70's. It was, at that time a very judgmental, money loving church. I know this as a fact because, my mother was turned away as a Catholic because she divorced, but a famous senator of that time, who gave millions to the church, was absolved, even though he also committed murder.

As for the Catholic religion today, I don't know how they handle things. I do know that, a Pope is voted in by man, not by God. Same with all that are brought into the church as "leaders". The bible clearly states that, we are to profess our sins STRICTLY to our Father; God. No man can absolve us of sin. No prayer ritual given by a man can absolve us either. We must be forgiven by the Father, by professing our sins directly to HIM--not to a man behind a frosted window in a booth, or any person for that matter.

The bible also clearly states that, we are not to worship idols. Yet, I grew up watching candles lit under Jesus' mother, Mary and she is worshipped. The bible, no where states that Mary is anyone to pray to. Neither is Joseph or any other biblical figure except to God. God, being Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit. We also are not to profess one church as the only church, but to profess one GOD as the only God we follow. By professing one's church (part of the apostolic creed--"We believe in one HOLY, Apostolic, Catholic Church". No, I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, His Son, Christ and the presence of the Holy Spirit.

I am not bashing the Catholic people. My grandmother was a devout Catholic and probably more Christian than most people I ever knew. However, the rituals that are followed by the Catholic Church (and many others, for that matter) do not follow what is clearly taught in the Bible. Man is the one that made their own laws involving the church as a building and religion. Christ told us that WE were the church. We, being each of us that follows Jesus and are His Children.

God Bless,
Kelly

Brothers and Sisters,

I would make this one real simple:  99% of those who call themselves Apostles today are involved in a con game - the other 1% are insane. I think that just about covers the entire 100%. This brings to mind a host of people making money by misusing the precious name of JESUS CHRIST. They will all meet JUSTICE at GOD'S appointed time.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 6:10-14 NASB  For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Hello LuckyStrike,

We'll have to agree to disagree then, and that's fine. I won't argue it with you. I'll simply say that GOD had a time, a place, and a purpose for many things that are PAST. I probably understand the basis for your beliefs, and you are welcome to them. I simply disagree and say that it's not a matter of close-mindedness, rather it is a matter of rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 10:29-30 NASB  "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. "I and the Father are one."

I think the key words here are "call themselves Apostles". It goes hand in hand with those that call themselves prophets. It is a self-righteous, self-elevating action with an intent other than to serve the Lord. This is seen a lot today. The majority of these people have the intent to serve self or satan instead of God.

Pastor Roger,

Brother, that's an accurate summary. The real shame here is the damage done to those who are lost and the babes in Christ. They offer ample evidence for unbelief, hypocrisy, and confusion. The cure involves the fact that Christians don't place their faith in men, rather we place our faith in One who never fails, JESUS CHRIST, our Lord and Saviour forever.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 18:2 NASB  The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge; My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.

Amen to that!!!! Many are being swayed by these rich, self-proclaimed profits. Benny Hinn being the first to come to mind. Because I put a prayer request in on his site at one time, I am unsuccessful in removing myself from his mailing list (even though I have threatened to report this to his server). I was told in the last message that, I wasn't following God's Will by giving money to the Hinn ministry and God, basically would punish me for it. Okay, not exact words but that is how it is given in context. How many do not have the believe in God--faith strong enough to read the Word or too desperate for help that they focus on people like this instead of His Face? I am afraid to know. If we just give that amount of ourself to Christ, these false prophets would go under completely and be exposed. The problem is that, today's society seeks immediate rescue and doesn't want to wait on God's timing in many circumstances. This is how false prophets get so rich and famous--along with being believed by their false miracles.

It is sad, but we must do all we can to keep everyone focused on Christ, and Christ alone. Without Him, there are no miracles. With Him we are healed, loved and provided for, as well in rich in a way that no money can ever come close to.

God Bless,
Kelly

Amen Sister Kelly4Jesus!

It's a wonderful fact to know beyond any doubt at all that JESUS CHRIST will love us and hold us close to HIM for eternity. We know this even here in this short life. I can't imagine how beautiful this sure knowledge will be when the noise and evil of the world is gone, our last tear has been shed, and there will be nothing but peace, joy, and love forever!

We can dream about what it will be like as often as we want to, and I enjoy thinking about eternity several times each day. It makes me stop and give thanks. Just knowing about our real citizenship in Heaven does help to ease the pain of evil in this short journey here. We go back to the Bible and know that the suffering here is nothing in comparison to the joy that will be for eternity with JESUS!

We are talking about the deceptions and evil of men here, and I have one more thought that I'd like to share. We also have the Living Word of GOD, JESUS CHRIST, and the HOLY SPIRIT of GOD living in our hearts. GOD'S WORD is the ultimate source of truth, and it exposes the lies of men. Some people think of the Bible as just another book, but Christians should remember our living comforter and guide of those pages who lives in our hearts, the HOLY SPIRIT. The HOLY SPIRIT can test all things and guide us to the path that will be most pleasing to GOD. There is NO irony that path is also the best for us.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Isaiah 12:2-3 NASB  "Behold, God is my salvation, I will trust and not be afraid; For the LORD GOD is my strength and song, And He has become my salvation." Therefore you will joyously draw water From the springs of salvation.

Hey brother Tom!
And to think that, our freedom was bought, not at a price of our own but by the Precious Blood of our Loving Savior, Jesus Christ! Yet, so many still feel they must purchase freedom from man, or find it in the promises of a false prophet. All they need to do is pick up the Bible. The Words in there can do so much more (infinite things) than the words from a person who also has his or her hand out for money! Our freedom is free. All we need to do is look Up and call out to our Wonderful Father! Praise Jesus!

After spending the whole day watching my kids, taking care of the house and then working throughout the night on my business, I went outdoors for my night time prayer. After praying, I felt the need to stay awake and just wait for God's Miracle to be shown to me--something I miss or take for granted every day. At the crack of dawn, I went out side and sat in the garden, watching God's nature come alive! How many times do we forget to take into account all the miracles, how simple they may seem to us, that He provides. Why pay for a picture show when we can go right outdoors and see God in all His Glory?  We get so busy in our daily lives--even debating this topic (lol) when we don't need to debate one thing, for it is well spoken--We are ALL saints in His eyes and all His children! Why even try to be anything else, when He has given us so much?

God Bless,
Kelly

AMEN Kelly!!

Amen sister Kelly. Very well said.

 
Sister Kelly, please forgive me, but I just found this to be a little amusing, I'm not knocking your spelling or anything, it's just the the connection really makes sense......
profit .............. prophet  I just thought that was cute.

 :-\

OOPS! now I no how too spell! I went to collage!

Okay, had to put a joke in there. Seriously, I used to be a spelling bee champ. You can't tell that now, an you?

P R O P H E T S -- Prophets 
B E N N Y H. -- Profits

There, I think we got it now!

See what happens when you don't sleep? lol

God Bless,
Kelly

I do think it was an appropriate spelling.   ;D ;D

To sum it all up.... to take your eyes off of JESUS... is a set up for failure!!

        In Christ.. Tina

I agree, that is very appropriate, Kelly. As for sleep, whats that?

Hi!  I'm not angry and hence not responding!  I just suffer from an accute form of ADD.   :)  Yes.  I'm kidding.  I just got busy.  Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanywho.  I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.  Namely because the office of an apostle was given.  Yes, they were gifted to prove the office God gave them.  Regardless, however, it was an appointment - one you clearly showed by giving the definition.

Thanks for shedding light on this area my friend! 

His,

Kevin

No.  Absolutely not.  Ok.  Maybe.   ;D ;)  Anytime... :)

???

There is no scripture to support APOSTOLIC  SUCCESSION, as there is no scripture to support Apostolic baptism. In the gospels , there is not any Christianity there. The question also is about Priests, and I don't see how they are from the tribe of Levi . To be a priest in Isreal you had to be a descendant from the tribe of Levi, and to be a High priest, you had to be a descendant of and from the tribe of Aaron. So their can not be any Priests today in the Body of Christ .   dan p

May I counsel softly softly on the question of Apostolic Succession?

John was the last of the original 12 apostles to die in AD100 and I presume the question really relates to succession thereafter.

So what are we saying?
That there were no Apostles after John?
Or are we saying that there were successive Apostles but that none were endued with anything like the authority and inspiration of the twelve?

Let us remember that between John’s death in AD100 and the 16th century successive ‘persons’ continued to shape and reshape the canon of scripture that we currently hold so dear and so faultless.
Please God there was at least something ‘special’ that enabled them to do so.

Let us also not forget that the first ‘versions’ of a bible were produced long after John when, in AD331, Emperor Constantine commissioned Eusebius to deliver fifty Bibles for the Church of Constantinople; providing the motivation for the canon lists, Codex Vaticanus, Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Alexandrinus. Which, together with the Pegotcha2ta, were the earliest extant Christian Bibles.
Please God that Eusebius was suitably inspired.

Then let us not forget that it was Luther, in the 15th century, who first cast doubt on seven of the books previously considered to be canonical, causing the Council of Trent to restate Catholicism’s authorised canon..

And let us not forget that in the 16th century King James’ and his merry Shakespearean scholars further refined what we now hold have.

Without a considerable degree of inspirational authority after John we would be standing on very shaky ground IMHO.

I realise of course that the question is principally about Apostolic Church leadership as claimed mainly by Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, but there remains a ‘baby and bathwater’ factor that needs watching.

Apostolic Succession means spiritual authority passed down from the Apostles. This has nothing to do with inspiration from God alone which can happen to each and everyone of us. God can use people however he wishes and frequently does use even those that have rejected Him for His purposes. Whether those that put together what we know as the Holy Bible were or were not true followers of Christ is irrelevant. His word still stays true.

Brothers and Sisters,

The Office of Apostle ceased with the deaths of the originals. They all SAW JESUS CHRIST, and they had a specific purpose for a specific time. Do an expanded "word" study of 1 Corinthians 9:1 and follow all of the references and cross references. You will soon find that this is completely true.

Bluntly, those who claimed the Office of Apostle after the prescribed time of GOD did so for their own vanity and glory, NOT the Glory of GOD. I realize this is a blunt statement, but it needs to be blunt, ESPECIALLY nearing the End Days of this Age of Grace. Many will come claiming to be Apostles, Prophets, and CHRIST Himself - BUT they will be FALSE AND DECEIVE MANY! Many will also perform miracles, signs, and wonders that ARE NOT of GOD. We are to check and verify all things with the Forever Enduring WORD OF GOD. In fact, there are many outstanding reasons why we should "search the Scriptures" daily. GOD'S WORD is the only accurate measurement of ALL TRUTH! The Bereans were considered to be Noble because they did verify what they were told with the HOLY BIBLE. We must read the BIBLE for ourselves and learn how to test what we are told by men. If we don't, we will be easily deceived. GOD'S WORD is the ultimate test, and GOD intended it to be. At the top of our list, we should know that ONLY GOD is to be magnified, Glorified, praised, and worshipped.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1. Name: Andrew (means-"manly, conqueror").
Son of: Jona (dove)-Jn 1:42; Jonah-Jn 21:15; John-NIV.
Related to: brother of Peter.
Where from: Bethsaida-Jn 1:44.
Lived in: Bethsaida and Capernaum.
Occupation: Fisherman-Mk 1:16.
Originally a disciple of John the Baptist. Brought Peter to Jesus-Jn 1:41. Andrew and Peter owned a house together-Mk 1:29.
         
2. Name: Bartholomew (means-"son of Tolmai").
Also known as: Nathanael-Jn 1:45-49.
Son of: Tolmai.
Where from: Cana in Galilee.
Introduced to Jesus by Philip. Could have been of noble birth. Jesus said AN ISRAELITE... IN WHOM IS NO GUILE (or nothing false) Jn 1:47. Was brought to Jesus by Philip-ref Jn 1:45. He called Jesus the Son of God in Jn 1:49.
           
3. Name: James (Greek for Jacob, means-"supplanter").
Also known as: James the younger or the less.
Son of: Alphaeus.
Related to: possibly the brother of Matthew-ref Mk 2:14; ref Mt 10:3.
Lived in: Galilee.
           
4. Name: James * (Greek for Jacob, means-"supplanter").
Surnamed: Boanerges (the sons of thunder)-Mk 3:17.
Son of: Zebedee and Salome. Salome may have been the sister of Mary, the mother of Jesus, which would make him a cousin of Jesus-ref Mk 15:40; Jn 19:25.
Related to: brother of John.
Lived in: Bethsaida, Capernaum, and Jerusalem.
Occupation: Fisherman. James and John partners with Simon-ref Lk 5:10.
How died: Executed by King Herod Agrippa about 44 A.D.-ref Acts 12:2.
First of the twelve to die a martyr. Asked Jesus, WILT THOU THAT WE COMMAND FIRE TO COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, AND CONSUME THEM? Lk 9:54.
               
5. Name: John * (means-"gift of God").
Surnamed: Boanerges (the sons of thunder)-Mk 3:17.
Related to: brother of James. Son of: Zebedee and Salome. Salome may have been the sister of Mary, the mother of Jesus, which would make him a cousin of Jesus-ref Mk 15:40; Jn 19:25.
Lived in: Bethsaida, Capernaum, and Jerusalem.
Occupation: Fisherman. James and John partners with Simon-ref Lk 5:10.
Bible information: Wrote the Gospel According to John, First John, Second John, Third John, and the Revelation. This totals 5 books, 50 chapters, and 1,414 verses.
How died: It is believed he died a natural death.
James is always mentioned first. Only disciple mentioned that stood at the cross, yet allowed Peter to enter the tomb first. Cared for the mother of Jesus. Asked Jesus, WILT THOU THAT WE COMMAND FIRE TO COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, AND CONSUME THEM? Lk 9:54.
                 
6. Name: Judas-ref Jn 14:22 (means-"praise").
Also known as: Lebbaeus-Mt 10:3.
Surname: Thaddaeus-Mt 10:3.
Son of: James-ref Lk 6:16; Acts 1:13 NIV.
Lived in: Galilee.
                   
7. Name: Judas (means-"praise").
Surnamed: Iscariot-Lk 22:3.
Son of: Simon-Jn 6:71.
Where from: Kerioth, a Judean town, about 12 miles from Hebron. Not a Galilean.
How died: Hanged himself-Mt 27:5.
Betrayed Jesus. The treasurer and a thief-ref Jn 12:6. Fell by transgression-Acts 1:25. Matthias replaced him-Acts 1:20-26.
                 
8. Name: Matthew (also means-"gift of God").
Also known as: Levi-Lk 5:27-29.
Son of: Alphaeus-Mt 10:3; Mk 2:14.
Related to: Possibly the brother of James the less-ref Mk 2:14.
Lived in: Capernaum.
Occupation: Tax collector on road between Damascus and Accho just outside Capernaum.
Bible information: Wrote the Gospel According to Matthew.
Wealthy, owned his own house. Matthew himself lists the publicans with sinners-ref Mt 9:10; ref Lk 5:29.
                 
9. Name: Peter (means-"stone; rock")-Mt 16:18.
Also known as: Simon-Mt 4:18; Simon Barjona-Mt 16:17; Simeon-Acts 15:14; Cephas (rock)-ref Jn 1:42.
Son of: Jona (dove)-Jn 1:42; Jonah-Jn 21:15; John-Jn 21:15 NIV.
Related to: brother of Andrew.
Where from: Bethsaida-Jn 1:44.
Lived in: Bethsaida and Capernaum.
Occupation: Fishermen-Mk 1:16. James and John partners with Simon-ref Lk 5:10.
Bible information: He wrote First and Second Peter.
Originally a disciple of John the Baptist. Unpredictable. Andrew led him to Jesus.Was or had been married.
                         
10. Name: Philip (means-"lover of horses").
Where from: Bethsaida-Jn 1:44; 12:21.
Philip found Nathanael and brought him to Jesus-ref Jn 1:45-51. Jesus found Philip, and said, FOLLOW ME-Jn 1:43. In another Scripture, Philip said, LORD, SHOW US THE FATHER, AND IT SUFFICETH US (or will be enough for us)-Jn 14:8.
                   
11. Name: Simon (means-"hearing") Zelotes (the Zealot or zealous one)-Lk 6:15; Acts 1:13; also called the Canaanite (indicating his loyalty to Israel)-Mt 10:4; Mk 3:18.
Occupation: Member of the revolutionary Jewish Zealots.
Where from: Galilee.
             
12. Name: Thomas (means-"twin").
Also known as: Didymus-Jn 20:24.
Lived in: Galilee.
Misc: Made these statements, LET US ALSO GO, THAT WE MAY DIE WITH HIM-Jn 11:16; LORD, WE KNOW NOT WHITHER THOU GOEST; AND HOW CAN WE KNOW THE WAY?-Jn 14:5. He doubted the resurrection of Jesus until he could put his finger INTO THE PRINT OF THE NAILS-Jn 20:25.

2 other apostles the Bible tells us about.
               
13.Name: Matthias (means-"gift of God").
Matthias was chosen to replace Judas Iscariot, who fell by transgression. For it is written, IN THOSE DAYS PETER STOOD UP...AND SAID...MEN AND BRETHREN, THIS SCRIPTURE MUST NEEDS HAVE BEEN FULFILLED...CONCERNING JUDAS...FOR HE WAS NUMBERED WITH US, AND HAD OBTAINED PART OF THIS MINISTRY. FOR IT IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF PSALMS, LET HIS HABITATION (or place) BE DESOLATE, AND LET NO MAN DWELL THEREIN: AND HIS BISHOPRICK (or leadership) LET ANOTHER TAKE-Acts 1:15-17,20;  Ps 69:25; 109:8. WHEREFORE OF THESE MEN WHICH HAVE COMPANIED (or been) WITH US ALL THE TIME THAT THE LORD JESUS WENT IN AND OUT AMONG US, BEGINNING FROM THE BAPTISM OF JOHN, UNTO THAT SAME DAY THAT HE WAS TAKEN UP FROM US, MUST ONE BE ORDAINED TO BE A WITNESS WITH US OF HIS RESURRECTION. AND THEY PRAYED...AND THEY GAVE FORTH THEIR LOTS; AND THE LOT FELL UPON MATTHIAS; AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH THE ELEVEN APOSTLES Acts 1:21,22,24,26. MAY ANOTHER TAKE HIS PLACE OF LEADERSHIP Acts 1:20 NIV. Matthias had to have been with the apostles, as it is written, IT IS NECESSARY TO CHOOSE ONE…WHO HAVE BEEN WITH US...BEGINNING FROM JOHN’S BAPTISM TO THE TIME WHEN JESUS WAS TAKEN UP Acts 1:21,22 NIV. HE WAS NUMBERED WITH THE ELEVEN APOSTLES Acts 1:26.
         
14. Name: Paul (means-"little").
Also known as: Saul of Tarsus.
Where from: Tarsus-Acts 21:39; Tarsus was in Cilicia-Acts 22:3. Tarsus was a "free city."
Occupation: A Pharisee-Phili 3:5. Before his conversion, he persecuted the church-Acts 22:4. Was also a tent maker-Acts 18:1-3.

Bible information: Paul wrote more books of the New Testament than any other person. He wrote Romans, First and Second Cor, Gal, Eph, Phili, Col, First and Second Thes, First and Second Tim, Titus, and Phile. This totals 13 books, 87 chapters, and 2,033 verses. The author of Hebrews is uncertain although some credit Paul with writing it, also.
How died: He was beheaded in Rome.
He was of the tribe of Benjamin Phili 3:5. Was a Roman citizen-ref Acts 22:25. He was free born-Acts 22:28. He studied under Gamaliel-Acts 22:3. Was struck down by Jesus when he was on his way to Damascus-Acts 22:6. From this point on, he used his Roman name, Paul. HIS BODILY PRESENCE IS WEAK (or unimpressive), AND HIS SPEECH CONTEMPTIBLE (or amounts to nothing) 2 Cor 10:10. An apostle-Ro 1:1. An apostle of the Gentiles Ro 11:13.

Studies in the Bible tell us, all the apostles died a violent death, except John.

Amen DreamWeaver!

Brother Bob, I enjoyed that and copied it for additional study. THANKS!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Now I'll finish my last post.

Ephesians 4:11-16 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

In light of this passage, then, how do we properly understand these gifts in the Body of Christ?

First, these are FUNCTIONS, not "offices" or titles. These gifts are not capital "A" apostles, ot capital "P" Prophets. These are men given to the Body of Christ for its maturing, its edification, its education. In fact, even Paul never referred to himself with the title "Apostle". He begins all his epistles simply, "Paul, an apostle..." So the folks running around saying I'm "Apostle so and so," or "I'm Prophet this and that," is, to say the least, in error.

Second, The "apostles" of the Lord were obviously unique in that they were "with Jesus" during His Earthly ministry, although Paul was an exception, sort of... He was, however, given the message he preached directly by Jesus

Galatians 1:11-12, 16-19 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. 19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

When Paul went to Seminary for three years, it was in the Arabian Desert, and Paul's instructor was Jesus Christ Himself!!

In this sense, the first apostles were exceptional, unique, and different, in that they became the foundation on which the whole Church was to be built. Certainly they operated with a special anointing under direct inspiration to achieve such a task. At the same time, others are called "apostles" in that they are the "sent ones" of the Church. They are charged with a specific message or mission, and are sent out to complete it. The "apostles of the church" serve the same role in preaching the Gospel in the fields, and establishing the church on the frontiers. In other words, today's "missionaries" function in the role of "apostles" in the biblical sense.

Prophets were charged primarily with the task of telling the message of God, more so than telling future events. Prophets are confrontational in pointing out the sin of God's people, and of the surrounding culture of which they are a part. They exhort and reprove. And usually, they are not well liked. Speaking truth to power can be...problematic for them, and the people they confront. I know some preachers who try to "pastor" churches though they really have a prophetic anointing, which explains why they can't stay at a church for more than 2 years without being fired or finding a way to leave. it should be noted, prophets today have the understanding of Biblical prophecy. They DO NOT, have the ability to give prophecy!!

Pastors lead, feed and protect the flock. That's their calling, and their task. Often, prophets or evangelists try to be pastors, which isn't necessarily a bad thing if they've got supportive staffs who compliment his gifts. But if he is the single pastor of a small church, it won't take long for him, or the congregation, to see it isn't what he's suited for in ministry.

Teachers are always needed in the church to educate the people. There are those within the ministry who are called to this task specifically, whether in the local church setting, or in para-church ministries, or in colleges an seminaries.

These ministry gifts not only DO, but MUST, exist if the church is to carry out its great commission. Often, the reason the church fails to carry out its primary task is due at least in part to ignorance of misunderstanding of these essential functional ministries in the Body of Christ.

My own gift is understanding prophecy, as well as being a pastor to my Church. A simple understanding of these functions are..........

Apostles: Govern the Body particularly new works, church plants, etc. etc.

Prophets: Guide the Body through understanding Biblical prophecy

Evangelists: Gather the Body from among the lost sheep

Pastors: Guard the Body

Teachers: Grow the Body

There maybe a simpler way to describe the different functions in a church, but I don't know how to describe it......

Peace and Grace unto you.
Bob

Hello DreamWeaver,

Brother Bob, I'll have to pleasantly agree to disagree with portions of this last post. I think that I'll just leave it at that.

Love In Christ,
Tom

I think the confusion comes in here because of the meaning that is given to the Greek word "apostolos". The word does mean " a delegate; specifically an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ (“apostle”), (with miraculous powers): - apostle, messenger, he that is sent. With this meaning the word could be applied to many.

However not only did the person need to be selected by Jesus Christ, in order to be an ordained Apostle the person also had to be an eye witness to the events of His life here on earth. Acts 1 : 22

Acording to the above criteria we must now throw out 2/3 of our new testament!

Saul, later called Paul, was not part of the original members of the upper room(I start there to shorten the gasps I still hear from my statement above)

Eph 4:11--he gave some apostles, some prophets,some evangelist, pastors, and teachers. for the working of the ministry-the edifying of the body, and the perfecting of the saints.

we have been given a five fold ministy by the Lord to teach us how to walk with him. Yet seldom do we see more than three of these ministries active in the body of believers. If we are not perfect(I'll raise my hand to that! and those of you who don't need to go to the alter and repent!) then we still need, and have all 5 ministries present. I firmly believe this, but I also know that many will not claim to be "prophets, or apostles" because of the ridicule they will receive, not from non-believers, but from within the body of the church. God has not change, God will not change. What he gave to one person is available to anyone who is willing to pay the cost of obedience to receive it.

Do you think Paul had fun being beaten? shipwrecked? put in chains? Prison? Do you think it brought him fame and fortune? Or do you think when he sold out to a loving savior he gave his all. We must learn that in order to live we die, in order to be anything at all in the kingdom of God it must be Christ in us our hope of Glory.

We can not get from God what we are dying to receive untill we can give to Him what is killing us.

As we sell out all that we have, and die to all that we are, then the new creature that we are will mature into the measure and the stature of the fullnes of Christ. we will become sons of God, and workers in the kingdom of our Lord

respectfully yours in Yeshua

ravenloche

Hello Ravenloche,

The Apostle Paul was specifically taught by CHRIST. On the rest of it, we can simply agree to disagree. Semantics and various misunderstandings of certain words cause a lot of confusion. A lot of today's problems deal with the vanity of man - NOT the GLORY OF GOD. I remember well the last person who introduced himself as an Apostle to me. I told him, "I'm Marvin the Martian and I'm glad to meet you." A decent ancient language dictionary used with applicable portions of Scripture would be enlightening. Agreeing to disagree isn't that bad either.

Love In Christ,
Tom

On this point we must agree to disagree!

there is so much that we see together, and some day when we stand before our Savior, together, I don't think that we will be discussing semantics! ;D

If we all were exactly the same we would not be brothers, we would be clones.

I appreciated your posts, and enjoy reading them.

Respectfully yours in Yeshua in love:

ravenloche