ChristiansUnite Forums

howdy folks
new here.

now that we have a supreme court that we want...it is only a matter of time before abortion and homoperversion will be made illegal. My question is what penalties should we attach to these crimes. I advocate death. I was wondering what you folks think. thanks for sharing :)

If such atrocities become lawfully illegal then it is up to the government to decide what the punishment is also. Whatever it is will be the will of the Lord.

I think its wonderful that they would make these sins illegal by law, but let me ask you, what do you think should be the penalty for your sins ???

What is homoperversion? Is it a synonym for homosexuality? How can homosexuality in and of itself be made into a criminal offense, even if it is a sin? How could such a thing be enforced?

Yes homoperversion is just that. It could not be enforced if it were kept behind closed doors but such a law would push them out of the public eye where sexual matters do not belong anyway.

according to the bible...a wack across the head now and then

homosexuality is a sin just like any other. so if your a fornicator, you will be judged just like the homosexual.

don't fool yourself into thinking your sin is better than someone elses'!

those who abort their child can be forgiven like the homosexual, or the fornicator (the liar, the curser, the smoker, etc.) so let it not be us who pick the penalties. and if we do, pick based on your sins!

i imagine the penalty will be greatly reduced, when you pick it based on the punishment you believe you are worthy of  (or capable of handling).

p.s. i do believe it should be addressed, and dealt with. we should talk about it, but we should talk about the misuse of the pulpit as well. and the misuse of gods finances, and certainly all of the crooked politicians... they've gotten so crooked that we just expect it and accept it. ;)

forgive me for saying so kgb but you sound like a lefty to me. Please don't read this as an insult. It is just an observation.

No, he is just politically incorrect, with the Doctrine of man. By the way, his name is GKB, not kgb.

Would I be correct in saying this is in reference to Levitcus, chapter 20? (specifically verse 13)  

I think we have to ask ourselves; would God have us keep the same punishments today?  

When I look at Leviticus 20:10, "If a man commits aldutery with another man's wife-- with the wife of his neighbor-- both the aldulterer and the adulteress must be put to death,"  I am reminded of John 8:1-11 (the story of  the alduteress, when Jesus said, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone")

Also, there is Leviticus 20:11, "If a man sleeps with his father's wife, he has dishonored his father.  Both the man and the woman must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."  However, in 1 Corinthians 5, a man caught in the same situation is simply to be expelled from the church.  

Please don't misinterpret me; I am not saying this is a contradiction.  I am saying we must keep in mind the context of Leviticus; God was speaking specifically to the Isreaelites as they were about to enter the promised land. If one of God's chosen people were to give into sin, it would be a great threat to the rest of the nation.  As it says, "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough." 1 Corinthians 5:6, and, ""Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you have become defiled.  Even the land was defiled; so i punished it for its sin and the land vomited out its inhabitants.  But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, for all of these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled.  And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you." Leviticus 18:24-28.

Hmmm....  I realize i'm not doing a very good job of explaining this   :-[ ... I can also see I'm leaving myself wide-open to misinterpretation, so I'm just going to stop before I get myself any deeper than I already am.  =-)  Hopefully someone else can explain what I am trying to say...

I understand what you are saying. Let me clarify. The wife of a mans father = HIS MOTHER. You hit on the one sin that is worse than homoperversion. In corinthians he probably just slept with his step-mother. iiiig gross

No, that's missing the point entirely.  I guess I was giving you too much credit when I thought you were referring to Leviticus in the first post.  Never mind. 

Mockingbird, piusx was pushing his own agenda.

It is little tough.
It can be viewed in two ways.  Man's and God's.
Man's - given the nature of the broad labelling, it will take thousand's of pages of clauses to define the act (abortion or homo perversion (?!!) ) in different circumstances and degrees.  Thus a committee can sit and think through for a decade and do whatever.

God's - let them come to me, with repentance.  I will forgive them and embrace them and take it on from there.
As for those who do not repent, You (this refers to You and I) take the message of cross to them so that I will convict them and make them worthy

So there, I told you it is tough :-\

Separation of Church and State.  To assume that politics and government must reflect God's laws and Gospel is not prudent.  Where is this advocated in the New Testament?  Our work as Christians is not to force our beliefs and ways on others through political means, but to share with them the Gospel and God's love. 

Separation of Church and State is a falicy of the secularists. It was not the full intention of the founding fathers for it to be carried to the extent that it is today. It is not a part of any of our nations laws or documents that this nation was founded on. There was an intent to keep the government out of a specified religion but not to keep religion out of the government.

Yes we should be sharing the Gospel and God's love with all people. This does not mean that we cannot have religion in government. After all the founding fathers did use the Bible as a reference for the laws that they set this nation up on. Not to force religion on it's people but rather for the moralistic basis of the Bible. If we are doing our part as Christians the laws of this nation will reflect it.


Why is it not prudent? It is not prudent to withhold it from our laws as we have already seen in the history of this nation. When prayer and the Bible were taken out of our public schools is when this nations moral values started declining. To do otherwise is for them to force their beliefs (or lack thereof) on us.



Phi 2:15  That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;


Isa 58:2  Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God.

I agree there ought to be legal system that would efficiently keep a nation free within bounds.

If the system worked as it should be, there should be no crime at all in the world (agree, it is a broad and over statement these days!). 

God gave us laws.  Man could not comply to it.  we wanted only to stretch and pervert it the way we want it to be!
All the laws were fulfilled by Jesus.  Thus a nation without Jesus will not have the laws obeyed.  Hence, it is essential to give Jesus to every individual - not by pressure or persuasion, as pointed out rightly, but with love and leading witnessing life ourselves.

Hello Ruth,

I don't think that I've had a chance to welcome you, so WELCOME!


Ruth, the laws of many countries were said to have "Judeo-Christian" roots, but that's just another way of saying the roots of the law were from the Holy Bible. That is especially true for America. Many of the first laws were quoted Chapter and Verse from the Holy Bible.

The founders of America didn't make any secret of the fact that they were founding a Christian nation for a Christian people. Many of the laws we have today still have roots from the Holy Bible, and there is no apology for that. Many of the things mentioned in this thread were against the law just a few short years ago, and many people would be surprised to find out just how bluntly our society was based on the values and principles of the Holy Bible. As an example, unlawful cohabitation was a written law that addressed the relations of a man and woman NOT married. Different states had different names for this law, but it was the written law. By the way, homosexual acts were against the law in all states, and they still are in some states. Adultery was listed as a felony in most states, and it still is in some.

In short, Judeo-Christian values and principles formulated into law has served this country well since far before our Declaration of Independence from England. Some of these laws have been taken off the books in the last few decades, and the result was a drastic decline in our society that is easy to measure in many ways. It is a good thing for a nation to follow the things of GOD and the Holy Bible, NOT a bad thing.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 10:8-10 NASB  But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

this is a really tough topic...............

Vengince is mine ayith the Lord

Judge not lest ye be judged......


The bible says don't do it. So don't do it. We will not succeed in bringing these misdirected people to a relationship with God if we force things down their through.

Show them the saveing love of Christ, then when they accept and chose to follow him......they will turn from their perversions.

We all started there........"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

I was a dead sinner, so was my wife,  so were we all. Love will change their hearts, not government. To often we rely on the big brother to protect us. Is it really their job? most people are defiant to legilation. Not many are defiant of love.

Gary

I agree with your post for the most part, Gary. 

How can we as Christians show the love of Christ through politics?  We can't, really, it's all law.  Our goal here on Earth is to share Christ's love.  All we do by forcing a nation to act a certain way is turn millions of people off to such a "self-righeous, hateful" religion.  We are doing nothing good for Christianity by mixing it with politics.

You need to study your Bible a whole lot more. God has been in politics from the very beginiing. He is the one that has chosen rulers. He is the one that has set out laws for His people. No they didn't abide by them just as many people don't abide by todays laws. That is a weakness of man but God still set them forth and He still does.

Are you saying that Christianity is a self-righteous, hateful religion? That is exactly what it sounds like you are saying. The only religion that is selfrighteous and hateful when mixed with politics is not Christianity. Christians are not doing anything good for anyone by allowing non-christians to rule the world. Instead we are allowing those that would torment and destroy people to rule the world.


If Christianity was not mixed into politics you would not be enjoying the freedoms that you do today. You would see a very hateful government such as China or those of the Muslim nations.

The words "self-righteous" and "hateful" were in quotes, much as they are now.  Which means I was quoting others.  I figured you would pick up on that.  I cannot count the conversations I've had with people who oppose the current evangelical regime and describe it in this manner.  It turns them off from Christianity. 

God was in politics in the Old Testament.  He set up the system for the Israelites.  We're in the New Testament era.  We have access to God through Christ, not through the nation of the state religion.  Jesus said precious little about politics (Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, give to God what is God's).  Paul said that all rulers are put in place by God and we must submit to authority.  You don't see the early Christians running around picketing or or even complaining when they were being put to death by the government.  They weren't trying to invoke political change.  They saw that this world is nothing compared to our heavenly, and they concentrated on that instead of the powers of this world.  I believe that this should be our stance as well. 

We should always be trying to advance the Gospel.  I believe the current status of evangelical-republicanism in America is hurting this advancement.  Politics are not the place to be pushing our agenda.  No Gospel comes through, only law. 

The Gospel was spread quite successfully man, many years while Christianity was a part of our government. The decay of America started when prayer and the Bible were taken out of schools and out of governemnt. This is a fact because the gospel reached many that did not go to church and the church did not go to them. Yes we need to reach out to these people in a way that was not done then. 

For a nation to be unGodly is for a nation to fail. In America we are that nation. We the people are the government at least for awhile yet.

I find it ironic that these "godly" rulers we have killed hundreds of innocent people in the past couple years.  I am not political activist, I claim neither the democrat nor the republican side.  I would consider myself a moderate if anything.  My primary responsibilty is to my God, not to the evangelical-republican party.

There have been HUGE mistakes when Church and State were mixed in the past:  are the Crusades ringing a bell?  Rulers and regimes have ALWAYS used God's Word out of context and brought misery onto scores of people.  To say we're doing any better in the modern day is ridiculous.  People are sinful and when we try to use God's Word to justify our political means and ends, we're taking God's name in vain, for one.  We're also just being silly.  God's Word isn't here to run a country successfully, because theocracy's don't work here.  God gave His Word to work salvation in the lives of all people.  These two focuses cannot be mingled. 

Ruth, you sound like one of those far left folks who want Christians to sit down and be quiet. Let me guess, you're also against Christians holding public office. The decline of America started about 50 years ago, and the reason was the opposite of what you state. America started turning its back on GOD and has paid a horrible price in terms of just about everything bad you can think of (i.e. murder, suicide, violent crimes, and statistics across the board went off the charts). Too many Christians remained silent during this 50 years of rapid decline, and they know it. SO, nobody should count on Christians sitting down and being quiet. We will do the opposite.

Tom

Have it your way.  May I remind you that actions speak louder than words...even extremely loud ones. 

Where Christianity in politics is good is one thing.  Whether or not the situation is good for Christianity is quite another.  And I'm more concerned about the Church. 

When Christianity is taken out of politics the Church will have to go underground as it has in many countries. That is not "better for the Church" in any manner. It becomes harder if not impossible to spread the true Gospel of God.

Our God reigns!  I feel that He still makes and topples governments for His glory.  We may not comprehend why He would chose one candidate/party over another, or keep one nation under dictatorship.  It is He who makes evangelism flourish in a country and also, when necessary, allow the process to be confronted head on by satan.

Bottomline is that He does what He pleases to do.  He is the same yesterday, today and forever.  The God who made kings and nation still does - totally.

Our understanding of 'politics' is limited.  

Coming to the topic, a ploitical agenda works only after there is fear of God in the nation.  It is our duty to pray for the lost nation, that God will show mercy and continue to pour out His Spirit, resulting in changes starting in an individual and ending up in communities.  Not the other way round.

Amen RKJ. God is the same yesterday today and forever.

Ruth, if Christianity were removed from the affairs of the government (As it will be after the rapture), the world would be in a FAR worse state than it is today. In fact, IMHO, God is using US as the glue that holds this world together. As Christians, it's true that we have a responsibility toward the gospel. We need to spread it as effectively as we are humanly able.

But we also have a moral responsibility to care for our fellow man, and this responsibility means (More often than not) becoming involved with those in authority, IE, the government.

Amen LittlePiigrim,

This has been proven historically many times. Christians not being involved in polotics is why the U.S. has become what it is today. A nation that is falling into moral decay. It wasn't until their liberties as a Christian were threatened time and time again that Christians finally started standing up again for what is right. If more Christians would stand up Christ and become involved in polotics we wouldn't have the aberrations that we see today.

This is a little off-topic:  The rapture was mentioned a couple posts back.  This doctrine comes from taking Revelation and all the numbers/signs literally, correct? 

Yes, look at Matthew 24:3 While He was seated on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately and said, Tell us, when will this take place, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end (the completion, the consummation) of the age?

There are many more verses that go with this.

If you take the entire book of Revelation literally, what do you make of these verses?

Revelation 14:1-5 - "Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless."


According to this passage, only 144,000 get into heaven, they're male, and they're virgins.  But you're going to take it literally?

Yes I will take that literally.


Matthew 24:3 Jesus was asked, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?" Jesus told his apostles to look for the following signs prior to his second coming and the end of the age.

Matthew 24:5 "For many will come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and will mislead many."
Matthew 24:11 "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many."

In the last several years many have claimed to be the Messiah. Jim Jones and David Koresh are examples of these false christs as well as countless others who are not as newsworthy. These false prophets are a prelude to the ultimate false christ, the antichrist. Many New Age groups, some even NGO's working for the United Nations, are anxiously awaiting the antichrist, preparing the way for his acceptance as the head of the hierarchy of gods and the one who will usher in world peace.

Matthew 24:8-9 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of my name."

Christians are under attack throughout the world today. In the United States Christians still enjoy freedom to worship God without suffering much more than ridicule, hatred, or discrimination at work and school. However in many other countries such as China, Sudan, Africa, Saudi Arabia, Korea, Russia, and many Muslim nations, Christian suffer much greater persecution and often times death for their faith. During the tribulation this suffering will be worldwide and will continue even to the point of martyrdom. These first 5 signs will increase in intensity and severity as the tribulation approaches, much like the birth pangs or contractions of a pregnant woman worsen as the delivery time approaches.

Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come."

This prophecy has already been fulfilled through television, radio, missionaries, the translation of the Bible into many languages, and the internet. People all over the world now hear the message of Christ from missionaries who have the means to travel the globe, and via technology that allows us to communicate with people on the other side of the world right from our own homes, churches and offices.

If you want, I could go on and on. All these Prophecies have come true. I take Prophecy literally, from the Bible. So the Bible is Literally to be taken Literally.

Dreamweaver, please address the text I posted from Revelation.  I don't have a problem taking what Jesus said in Matthew as being literal.  But Revelation is a whole different book...it was a vision, number one.  Number two, almost all of the imagery from Revelation comes from the Old Testament.  Number three, a lot of the stuff Revelation addresses has already happened, for example, the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., Nero's (and other emperors') persecution of Christians, etc...

Please tell me how only 144,000 people being redeemed, and them being male virgins, fits in with the rest of Scripture.  Thank you.

Ruth, Why don't you tell us your position on it.

What do you know of the end times Ruth?  If you take a look you will find the answer, by me many times on the forum. And as I said before, I will take it LITERALLY. You aren't reading my posts, just skimming them.

It reveals the people that he will kill. They have been chosen of God for this purpose. To be a witness to the Anti-Christ and the horrible people that serve him. The 144,000 are part of this group. The next seal is given as an answer to comfort their hearts and to let us know that this will not go unpunished. These people will include all of the righteous dead who are killed during the last 3 1/2 years of the tribulation.

Revelations is also a Literal Text.

I believe the vision in Revelation is largely indicative and representative.  

Regarding the verses I posted, 144,000 is the number of completeness (12, the number of the tribes, times 12,000, the number of the people from those tribes as listed in chapter 7...which also implies that they'd all have to be Jewish if taken literally).  All number of people in heaven is complete. The virginity of these 144,000 is their purity through Christ and their connection with God alone.  

The language of Revelation would have been very recognizable among the Jews and other Christians at the time when it was written, as well as understandable.  Like I said, almost all of the imagery is from the Old Testament.

If taken literally, these verses mean something drastically different.  Besides, from your viewpoint, Revelation 7:9 would contradict Revelation 14:1-5.  Revelation 7:9 reads:

"After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes with palm branches in their hands..."  

So in this verse the saved cannot be numbered but in Revelation 14 they can?

So all the righteous dead in the last 3 1/2 years of the tribulation are going to be male virgins?

"With the Augsburg Confession (Art. XVII) we reject every type of millennialism, or Chiliasm, the opinions that Christ will return visibly to this earth a thousand years before the end of the world and establish a dominion of the Church over the world; or that before the end of the world the Church is to enjoy a season of special prosperity; or that before a general resurrection on Judgment Day a number of departed Christians or martyrs are to be raised again to reign in glory in this world; or that before the end of the world a universal conversion of the Jewish nation (of Israel according to the flesh) will take place.

Over against this, Scripture clearly teaches, and we teach accordingly, that the kingdom of Christ on earth will remain under the cross until the end of the world, Act 14:22; John 16:33; 18:36; Luke 9:23; 14:27; 17:20-37; 2 Tim. 4:18; Heb. 12:28; Luke 18:8; that the second visible coming of the Lord will be His final advent, His coming to judge the quick and the dead, Matt. 24:29, 30; 25:31; 2 Tim. 4:1; 2 Thess. 2:8; Heb. 9:26-28; that there will be but one resurrection of the dead, John 5:28; 6:39, 40; that the time of the Last Day is, and will remain, unknown, Matt. 24:42; 25:13; Mark 13:32, 37; Acts 1:7, which would not be the case if the Last Day were to come a thousand years after the beginning of a millennium; and that there will be no general conversion, a conversion en masse, of the Jewish nation, Rom. 11:7; 2 Cor. 3:14; Rom. 11:25; 1 Thess. 2:16.

According to these clear passages of Scripture we reject the whole of Millennialism, since it not only contradicts Scripture, but also engenders a false conception of the kingdom of Christ, turns the hope of Christians upon earthly goals, 1 Cor. 15:19; Col. 3:2, and leads them to look upon the Bible as an obscure book."

Would any of you care to explain to me exactly what the rapture is all about?  I think I know, but I want to make sure all my details are correct. 

I hardly believe that. As is with most things that you have asked questions about on here I sincewrely think that you have already made a consensus of what you think it means and once someone posts an answer to yoour question then you are going to tell them that they are wrong and that it contradicts scriptures.

Since you are so knowledgeable on scriptures tell us what the following words mean and what their importance is to scripture and to this subject.

apokalupsis

harpazō

telos

The words can be used in an apocalyptical fashion

akokalupsis (apokalupsis) - a certain disclosure of the truth, manifestation, or appearance
 ---- It can be used for "Revelation"

telos - a completion of something, moving towards the end.  Everything in creation moves toward the end which God intended it to.

harpazo - to seize, carry away, pluck snatch (interestingly used in John 10:20 - "My Father who has given them [His sheep] to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of my Father's hand"...His Father gave them to Him)


I never suggested that what is said in Revelation isn't truth, I've suggested that it is being interpreted wrongly. 

Will you tell me about the rapture now?  The chain of events, etc...

Let me make it quick. I am on two different forums right now, babysitting grandkids and cooking diinner.

To answer you question simple and plain go to this thread:


http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=298.msg3551#msg3551

AMEN to that PR,

What I left out of my originall post was......do I think we should use legilation.......in this Ccountry......Yep.

things have gotten so far out of hand and too many don't realize that this country was founded by belief.

If I am not mistaken all ten of Gods commandments are represented in laws in our country....although some have become rather diluted lately.

We need to act as Christians, love them into the kingdom.......sometimes love is tough. Legislation is all some people will succome too and they will resent us for it. Love them all the same.

Mat 10:22  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.



Yes all Ten Commandments are reflected in our founding laws starting before the articles of confederation and continuing into the Constitution. Even though there were some of our founding fathers that are questionable as to whether they were Christian or not all of them were of the understanding of the necessity to have laws based on the Biblical teachings and that any government that was to survive would need to stay in those precepts.


John Adams, 1798
Signing of the Constitution

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other."


President Thomas Jefferson, 1781
Notes on the State of Virginia

"God who gave us Life gave us Liberty. And can the Liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these Liberties are a gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever."

President James Madison

"The future and success of America is not in this Constitution, but in the laws of God upon which this Constitution is founded."

If we're using legislation to try to turn people into Christians, then we're failing miserably.  The Gospel is the only thing that can make Christians.  Legislation is law and law only condemns. 

Once again, I don't deny that Christianity may be good for the state if it's kept in it's pure form, but the state is bad for Christianity and the two shouldn't be mixed.  They are two very separate things, and if we start to confuse them, then statements like the ones made above come out.  Just because we have the power to make gays NOT get married, how is that going to further the kingdom of God?  Those gays that were prevented from being married sure aren't going to start loving Christianity anytime soon.  I'm not an advocate of homosexual marriage, but take our role as Christians and put ourselves in their shoes. 

Thats not what I said.

I said love them into the kingdom.

Legislation is to protect and guilde the unchurched

If everyone was a believer we would not need laws.

We can not hold non-believers accountable to the bible but we can support legislation that does

The founding fathers did not try to make anyone Christian through legislation and no one here is advocating that either. To do other than what the founding fathers did (base laws on the Bible) is to give free reign of evil and to advocate a nation that is vile and doomed to die within a short time .

Amen to that PR

Yup yup your right rookie.

In 1892 the United States was a Christian nation. The United States was founded a republic by Christians. Most of its citizens are Christians. One national song, My Country Tis of Thee identifies Jesus Christ as our king.

Historically, America's basic moral code has been The Ten Commandments. All ten, have been a part of our legal system here in North America for almost 400 years! America has enemies who know and understand The Ten Commandments and they use this information against us.

The founding fathers never intended a freedom that would give the individual unlimited license. The freedom our founding fathers aspired to was a freedom in the context of moral standards based on the principles taught in the Bible. It is a freedom that gives us the power to do what is good and right according to a moral standard. Such freedom enables the individual person to govern himself.

Recognizing the Ten Commandments publicly is a reminder to our society that God wants to be included in the affairs of this nation. The presence of the Ten Commandments provides an opportunity for people to think about God. Ultimately, the Ten Commandments displayed in public places has the potential to lead people to an awareness of their need for Jesus Christ.

The Ten Commandments are also part of our foundational heritage and much of our legal system is based on principles found in God's law.

“The duties of men are summarily comprised in the Ten Commandments, consisting of two tables; one comprehending the duties which we owe immediately to God-the other, the duties we owe to our fellow men.”

“In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed... No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.” - Noah Webster

“The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.” - John Quincy Adams

“We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart. We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity… to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” - 1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia

"In regards to this great Book (the Bible), I have but to say it is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Saviour gave to the world was communicated through this Book. But for it we could not know right from wrong. All things most desirable for man's welfare, here and hereafter, are found portrayed in it." - Abraham Lincoln

Apparently there was a difference in opinion among the founding fathers:

Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence -

"All persons shall have full and free liberty of religious opinion; nor shall any be compelled to frequent or maintain any religious institution"

"The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man."

George Washington, the "father of our nation"

"If they are good workmen, they may be of Asia, Africa, or Europe. They may be Mohometans, Jews or Christians of any Sect, or they may be Atheists." As he told a Mennonite minister who sought refuge in the United States after the Revolution: "I had always hoped that this land might become a safe and agreeable Asylum to the virtuous and persecuted part of mankind, to whatever nation they might belong...." He was, as John Bell pointed out in 1779, "a total stranger to religious prejudices, which have so often excited Christians of one denomination to cut the throats of those of another."

"Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society."

John Adams, one of the largest proponents of American Independence and the beginning of a new nation

"We should begin by setting conscience free. When all men of all religions ... shall enjoy equal liberty, property, and an equal chance for honors and power ... we may expect that improvements will be made in the human character and the state of society."

"Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition and Dogmatism cannot confine it."

Benjamin Franklin, enough said

"I believe in one God, Creator of the universe.... That the most acceptable service we can render Him is doing good to His other children.... As to Jesus ... I have ... some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble."

"I am fully of your Opinion respecting religious Tests; but, tho' the People of Massachusetts have not in their new Constitution kept quite clear of them, yet, if we consider what that People were 100 Years ago, we must allow they have gone great Lengths in Liberality of Sentiment on religious Subjects; and we may hope for greater Degrees of Perfection, when their Constitution, some years hence, shall be revised. If Christian Preachers had continued to teach as Christ and his Apostles did, without Salaries, and as the Quakers now do, I imagine Tests would never have existed; for I think they were invented, not so much to secure Religion itself, as the Emoluments of it. When a Religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its Professors are obliged to call for help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."

Thomas Paine, author of "Common Sense"

"As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of government to protect all conscientious protesters thereof, and I know of no other business government has to do therewith."

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish [Muslim], appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit. I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe otherwise; they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine. But it is necessary to the happiness of man that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe. It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if I may so express it, that mental lying has produced in society. When a man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime. He takes up the profession of a priest for the sake of gain, and in order to qualify himself for that trade he begins with a perjury. Can we conceive anything more destructive to morality than this?"

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind."

"...The adulterous connection of church and state."

--------------------------------------------------

Perhaps I don't agree with these men's outlook on Christianity, but I don't need to.  They're legislators, not clergy.  They run the government, not the church.  And these are two very separate entities.  My point is, these men simply did not believe a theocracy, or a "Christian nation," was a feasible idea.  Nor they many of them outright believe Christianity in the first place.  And these men are the ones responsible for getting America's government going. 

And there's a lot more where those quotes came from.

They were saying that the government has no place to dictate a religion to its people. They didn't say that it was bad to have one. They still founded the country and its laws on biblical principals.

Can't get away from fact.

We can get into misinterpretation though

Amen Rookie. This is a subject that I have done extensive research on. The founding fathers did agree and did call this a Christian Nation. They set up the laes in such a manner to avoid a theocracy in order to prevent one denomination (note denomination ) from controlling the gevernment in the manner that had been done in England. In the many quotes they used the word religion because that is what it was referred to at that time instead of denomination.

No matter how much a person wants to argue or debate a fact is a fact. The Library of Congress is full of the facts of our foundings history. There are many that want to twist and turn things all around in an attempt to remove Christianity from the history of the U.S. Most of those that do so are atheists. Any true Christian would not accept such mis-information unless they have been completely duped by bad history books and/or teachers or simply want to argue for the sake of arguing.

An excellant book on this subject is "Christianity and the American Commonwealth". It was published over 100 years ago before the secularists took God, the Bible and Christianity out of schools and out of the text books.

Ruth,

I really don't know what point you're trying to make, but I would suspect it would be something along the lines of the ACLU. It can't be done with the history of America because the evidence is too overwhelming. The founding fathers lived what they intended, and folks like the ACLU can't deal with recorded history. As an example, Thomas Jefferson was also head over the D.C. schools when he served as President of the United States. One of his official acts for the schools was to make the Holy Bible and a Hymnal primary reading texts for the school. I might also mention that church services were being held in buildings used by Representatives, and the first printing of the Holy Bible in America was done by Congress. The standard practice of life that is recorded history clears up any misconceptions that can be made with various written material. The best example is the current and modern concept of "Separation of Church and State" which is a complete pack of lies and never did exist at all. It was manufactured by folks like the ACLU. The Constitution described a liberty, not a restriction. The only restriction that could be implied would be that the Federal Government could not make someone be a Baptist, a Methodist, etc., etc., etc. Most of the framers came from countries that could impose harsh penalties or death for not belonging to a certain religious organization or having a belief that was different from a certain religious organization. So, the Constitution actually does the opposite of what the ACLU has been preaching, and their lies are beginning to be forced back down their throats.

Some folks like the ACLU love to twist bits and pieces, but they can't handle American history, nor will they ever be able to. So, what point are you trying to make Ruth?

Ruth I have a question for you; following is a Scripture from the Bible, I have several Bibles and they all have this Scripture;
 Ps 33:12 ¶ Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.
(KJV) 
Does your Bible say that?
Nation = All the people, all citizens.

According to you quote "We are doing nothing good for Christianity by mixing it with politics."

In your honest opinion do you think this country is better off than it would be if God was allowed to reign in the hearts and minds of all it's citizens? As I type there are many anti-Christian groups, atheists, and false religions involved in politics that are given rights, while Christians are being persecuted, while God's Word is being banned from public places, while prayer is being banned, while the Name of Jesus is being banned. Any true Christian can honestly see that this country is in desperate need of the one and only True God.

Lu 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

 Joh 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

Mt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone

Mt 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Mt 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

The above Scriptures were Jesus own Words, yet this is HIS command

Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Amen Brother Tom and Sister Maria.

Not only do we have anti-Christian organizations trying to remove our Christian heritage from our country their is a mivement going on to remove it out of our various Churches. There is a falling away of the churches from the very word of God. Like a news article that DW just posted in the "News, Prophecy and other" thread where a church is changing with the times. God does not change and we are to follow him not the "times".

Amen PR, times may change, people may change, principles may change, BUT GOD (again one of my favorite sayings, But GOD) does not change, He is the same yesterday and forever. If we are to be like Him we to must be the same. No flip-floping ..... only One Person I want to please, even if that means everyone else thinks I'm politically correct or incorrect.
There's only one Person I want to please all the time  :D  :D

Well we already know the preamble of the Constitution says, "We the People, of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

And what about the individual states? Lets take a look at their preamble.

Alabama 1901, Preamble. We the people of the State of Alabama, invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution.
Alaska 1956, Preamble. We, the people of Alaska, grateful to God and to those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land.
Arizona 1911, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arizona, grateful to Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution...
Arkansas 1874, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arkansas, grateful to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government...
California 1879, Preamble. We, the People of the State of California, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom.
Colorado 1876, Preamble. We, the people of Colorado, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of Universe.
Connecticut 1818, Preamble. The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy.
Delaware 1897, Preamble. Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature, the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the dictates of their consciences.
Florida 1885, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Florida, grateful to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty, establish this Constitution...
Georgia 1777, Preamble. We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution...
Hawaii 1959, Preamble. We, the people of Hawaii, Grateful for Divine Guidance .. Establish this Constitution.
Idaho 1889, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Idaho, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings.
Illinois 1870, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors.
Indiana 1851, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Indiana, grateful to Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to choose our form of government.
Iowa 1857, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Iowa, grateful to the Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our dependence on Him for a continuation of these blessings establish this Constitution.
Kansas 1859, Preamble. We, the people of Kansas, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious privileges establish this Constitution.
Kentucky 1891, Preamble. We, the people of the Commonwealth are grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties...
Louisiana 1921, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Louisiana, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy.
Maine 1820, Preamble. We the People of Maine acknowledging with grateful hearts the goodness of the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us an opportunity ... And imploring His aid and direction.
Maryland 1776, Preamble. We, the people of the state of Maryland, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberty...
Massachusetts 1780, Preamble. We...the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging with grateful hearts, the goodness of the Great Legislator of the Universe ... In the course of His Providence, an opportunity and devoutly imploring His direction ..
Michigan 1908, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Michigan, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom establish this Constitution.
Minnesota, 1857, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Minnesota, grateful to God for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to perpetuate its blessings:
Mississippi 1890, Preamble. We, the people of Mississippi in convention assembled, grateful to Almighty God, and invoking His blessing on our work.
Missouri 1845, Preamble. We, the people of Missouri, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and grateful for His goodness .. Establish this Constitution .
Montana 1889, Preamble. We, the people of Montana, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty establish this Constitution ...
Nebraska 1875, Preamble. We, the people, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom .. Establish this Constitution.
Nevada 1864, Preamble. We the people of the State of Nevada, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom establish this Constitution ...
New Hampshire 1792, Part I. Art. I. Sec. V. Every individual has a natural and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience.
New Jersey 1844, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New Jersey, grateful to Almighty God for civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors.
New Mexico 1911, Preamble. We, the People of New Mexico, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty
New York 1846, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New York, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessings.
North Carolina 1868, Preamble. We the people of the State of North Carolina, grateful to Almighty God, the Sovereign Ruler of Nations, for our civil, political, and religious liberties, and acknowledging our dependence upon Him for the continuance of those
North Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of North Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, do ordain...
Ohio 1852, Preamble. We the people of the state of Ohio, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and to promote our common
Oklahoma 1907, Preamble. Invoking the guidance of Almighty God, in order to secure and perpetuate the blessings of liberty ... establish this ..
Oregon 1857, Bill of Rights, Article I. Section 2. All men shall be secure in the Natural right, to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their consciences..
Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble. We, the people of Pennsylvania, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly invoking His guidance
Rhode Island 1842, Preamble. We the People of the State of Rhode Island grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing
South Carolina, 1778, Preamble. We, the people of he State of South Carolina grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this Constitution.
South Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of South Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberties .
Tennessee 1796, Art. XI.III. That all men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their conscience...
Texas 1845, Preamble. We the People of the Republic of Texas, acknowledging, with gratitude, the grace and beneficence of God.
Utah 1896, Preamble. Grateful to Almighty God for life and liberty, we establish this Constitution.
Vermont 1777, Preamble. Whereas all government ought to .enable the individuals who compose it to enjoy their natural rights, and other blessings which the Author of Existence has bestowed on man ..
Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI . Religion, or the Duty which we owe our Creator .can be directed only by Reason and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each other .
Washington 1889, Preamble. We the People of the State of Washington, grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution
West Virginia 1872, Preamble. Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West Virginia reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God ...
Wisconsin 1848, Preamble. We, the people of Wisconsin, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, domestic tranquility
Wyoming 1890, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Wyoming, grateful to God for our civil, political, and religious liberties .. establish this Constitution.

After reviewing acknowledgments of God from all 50 state Constitutions. One is faced with the prospect that maybe, just maybe, the ACLU and the out-of-control federal courts are wrong.

"Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants." - William Penn

 ;D

After reading through these threads, I realize that, if I drank, I would be on my fifth drink by now. I got lost when it turned to step mother's sleeping with sons. I thought this was about homosexuality and abortion, but I got lost somewhere between NYC and Houston along the way.

Homosexuality is wrong. I have always said, even before being saved that, if God wanted us to sleep with the same sex, there wouldn't have been two. He didn't give us a woman and a man so we had a choice! He created us this way for a reason. I have two cousins--one is fully Gay, the other can't make up his mind and is Bisexual. I love the sinner but hate the sin, pure and simple. Even worse, they are wiccan to boot!

Abortion--presaved I believed in no one interfering on a woman choosing what would be best in her life. Post-saved (and after birthing 6 children, and one dying), I can't imagine anyone saying that the baby is not a life until the child is born. I watched the heartbeat at about 3 weeks on an ultrasound machine. A heartbeat means the child is living! The fact that she wasn't breathing air didn't matter. She was alive, plain and simple! God said THOU SHALT NOT MURDER--He didn't say, "However, there is one exception. You only have to worry about those that take in oxygen from the air".

It was just so much easier when we only had 10 laws, brought down by Moses after receiving them from God. What happened after that is a tragedy. If only this world still went by those 10 commandments, the world would not be in the state it is today.

Wishful thinking on my part..but exactly how I feel.

God Bless,
Kelly

Well, I’m back for part 2.  You didn’t think I’d leave forever, did you?  Finals week will do that to you ;)

Ok, regarding “Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord”:

Now tell me honestly, do you believe that this verse is actually referring to a system of politics and legislation, or the actual people who make up the nation?  I’d say the latter, and I think that would make more sense in Biblical context, if you read the rest of the verse:  “Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, the people he chose for his inheritance.”  This either refers to the Jewish nation (which WAS a theocracy, not meaning WE should be) or the new “nation” of all believers.  Since it’s an Old Testament verse, I’d lean towards the first.

Anyway, rules and laws can’t make any group of people the Lord’s.  Even if they’re forced to obey, their hearts will be even more resentful because they won’t understand.

Government can’t change the minds of people, unless it’s some sort of brain-washing, despotic government.  Therefore, I don’t really understand why you’re so insistent on having your policies apply to an entire country.  What would God rather see:  a group of people who are forced to follow his rules buy really hate him, or a group of people who gladly follow his laws out of joyful and loving obedience?  Once again, it’s the latter, but you’re gunning for the first option.  Which doesn’t make sense, because how can anybody know the full extent of God’s person through the law? 

And on the premise of America originally being a Christian nation…you must not have read a good deal of the quotes I posted earlier thoroughly, so I’ll repost a few and add some new ones.  I hope you take time to digest them:

James Madison:

“I must admit moreover that it may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to a usurpation on one side or the other or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them will be best guarded against by entire abstinence of the government from interference in any way whatever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order and protecting each sect against trespasses on its legal rights by others.” (Letter Rev. Jasper Adams, Spring 1832).

“To the Baptist Churches on Neal's Greek on Black Creek, North Carolina I have received, fellow-citizens, your address, approving my objection to the Bill containing a grant of public land to the Baptist Church at Salem Meeting House, Mississippi Territory. Having always regarded the practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government as essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, I could not have otherwise discharged my duty on the occasion which presented itself” (Letter to Baptist Churches in North Carolina, June 3, 1811).”  [notice that word, “purity”)

Thomas Jefferson:

“The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man (Letter to J. Moor, 1800).”

“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes”

“It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.”

“I may grow rich by an art I am compelled to follow; I may recover health by medicines I am compelled to take against my own judgment; but I cannot be saved by a worship I disbelieve and abhor.”

Thomas Jefferson was no Christian.  I’m sure you’re also aware of the fact that Jefferson fabricated his OWN version of the Bible, void of all references to miracles and strange supernatural happenings.

Treaty of Tripoli:

“As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arrising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.” (ratified during John Adams presidency)

John Adams:

It doesn’t sound as if Mr. Adams was so keen on enforcing Christian morals in legislation:  “We should begin by setting conscience free. When all men of all religions ... shall enjoy equal liberty, property, and an equal chance for honors and power ... we may expect that improvements will be made in the human character and the state of society.”

Benjamin Franklin:

Think how great a proportion of Mankind consists of weak and ignorant Men and Women, and of inexperienc'd Youth of both Sexes, who have need of the Motives of Religion to restrain them from Vice, to support their Virtue, and retain them in the Practice of it till it becomes habitual, which is the great Point for its Security."

Thomas Paine:

“As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of government to protect all conscientious protesters thereof, and I know of no other business government has to do therewith.”

“The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion. It has been the most dishonorable belief against the character of the Divinity, the most destructive to morality and the peace and happiness of man, that ever was propagated since man began to exist.”

“…The adulterous connection of church and state.”

Politics, are by nature, shady, sneaky, and full of fabrications.  Maybe Christianity would do some good for politics, but WHY would you want to subject Christianity to such measures?  We cannot protect the Church from politics when they’re so closely related and involved.  If the two are combined, it benefits no one.  Government is for now.  Christianity is for eternity.  They are two different realms.  They operate on two different systems. 

Perhaps Christianity could do some good for government, but not without losing some of its integrity, doctrine, and energy.  Evangelicals are so concerned about turning America into a “Christian” nation again that they’re forgetting about the Americans.  I see “Christians” picketing on college campuses with signs portraying dead fetuses.  I see “Christians” blowing up planned parenthood clinics.  I see “Christians” screaming hateful things at homosexuals and protesting against their marriages.  I see smug and self-righteous “Christians” on TV, in the newspaper, and especially in the Republican party.  What a good example of Christ’s love they are. 

Of course, I cannot convict all Evangelicals or all Republicans, because they are not all radical zealots.  But these are the things that happen when religion and politics get mixed, and its best just to leave them separate.  The Christian has a very serious job to do, and this is his sole responsibility. 

 "What little effort it takes - a friendly nod at a stranger on the street, giving change to the vagabond, saying hello or goodbye, opening doors, keeping our mouths shut. In the small things, the day-to-day gestures, the normal business of the day, we do the great work of the kingdom, which is to welcome each unlikely individual into the fold, one person at a time." – Sufjan Stevens

Why worry about whether or not homosexuals are getting married when there are people out there that need to hear the Gospel? 

I see that you are still at it.



If you have a nation that is the Lord's then you will have a government that is also of the Lord as that will follow especially so in a government such as the U.S.


While they cannot change peoples minds they can pass laws that are in accordance to the Bible making for a more moralistic society. One that is condusive of raising children in that will be less likely to go the way of the world. It is quite obvious that when it is taught in the public schools that it is ok to do such things that more people become involved in sin than there were other wise. History speaks for itself in this aspect.


Condoning such actions is unChristlike and it breeds more of such unChristlike attitudes.

If we allow a government to become completely without God we will have a nation like Sodom and Gommorah where very few are in the footsteps of Christ.

Take a look at the post #2 in the following link. It will show you the results of allowing a nation to take prayer and Bible reading out of its schools and government.

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=9693.0

As I said history speaks for itself.

Ruth, I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume that you don't really know what you are talking about.


I can see you take real pleasure in beating a dead horse.



[/quote]


Ruth, In case you didn't know God condemns homosexuality, how would you teach someone the Gospel and leave out those topics that Jesus Himself, chose to teach.

I'm quite aware that Scripture condemns homosexuality, but you'll have better luck witnessing to someone with homosexual tendencies by talking with him or her on a first hand basis than legislating him or her from Washington.

And that example is pretty much the core of what I'm trying to say:  forcing Christianity into politics is harming the Church because its true mission and purpose is disguised.  "Christianity" becomes some sort of hate-monging machine that insists its right without giving any good reason why.  And that is bad for the Church.  And if you can't see this, then perhaps it wouldn't hurt to leave the safety of these forums every once in awhile and talk to people that you would consider the "Biblical outcasts."  Without yelling or accusing or condeming, if possible. 

Beating a dead horse, maybe.  Or taking my point of view out for one last spin?  Either way, I'm grateful that you've all responded to thoughtfully and respectfully to my posts.  Thank you.

Your welcome Ruth, but as a Christian, I will not allow myself to be put in a box and stored on a shelf.
I honestly believe that you are trying to just sweep Christianity into a corner this political correctness or incorrectness does not phase me in the least, as a Christian I have an obligation and if that means that I have to do whatever I have to do to preserve the right to freedom of religion, than as a voting, tax paying, law abiding citizen, I will make my viewpoints known to the courts to congress and to any other Federal agency.

So sister, you are an old Fundy, like most of us here. Also known as politically inncorrect. ;D

YEP.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D

Yes DW, we are those who know that we can never get to talk to each and every homosexual one on one.

So I am an old fundy, a politically incorrect Christian, and I pray for our country, and I vote against those things I know are against God's Word, oh yes and I also leave the safety of this forum at least once a week to witness to the lost, to invite them to church, and to teach them about God's Word.

AMEN!!

Amen sister. To do other wise is telling them that it is ok for them to be whatever they desire and that they will be alright in doing so.

My point isn't about political correctness.  The whole concept of being PC is silly to me.  That's not my point at all.  And I think you all know what my point is, but would rather not address it. 

Here it is, in a nutshell.  Have your way with it:

The Christian life is about witnessing and confessing Christ through our words and actions
If particular groups are focused on advancing Christian law in a governmental system where no gospel can be shown, the core of the Christian life is disguised, the wrong impression is given, and the focus is lost.
Therefore, many people will refuse to listen.

However, if Christians realized that making American "God's country" through law and legislation is a fruitless endeavor, and instead work on spreading Christ's love, peace, mercy, and true Gospel, there wouldn't be a need for this legislation.

Basically, let's hit the heart of the problem rather than just dealing with the aftermath.  And hitting the heart of the problem cannot be done with the government. 

Let it be known that I am in no way saying that Christians shouldn't let their beliefs influence their voting patterns.  I'm just saying when it comes to forcing those beliefs on other people's voting patterns, there's a slight problem.  Purity in the Church must be preserved before purity in the government.  And I see the church as losing a lot of its purity, as do a lot of people I've spoken to.  Suddenly, Christians appear self-righteous, self-serving, and  hypocritical.  It becomes a club.  What can we do to solve this?  It's not a matter of being prideful about political correctness or incorrectness, it's a matter of service, love, and truth.  And we ALL know there isn't much truth invovled with politics. 

Ok, that's all I've got.  I didn't mean to personally attack people here.  It comes off that way.  And I'm pretty positive I convinced no one, but hey...I have to give it a shot.  Thanks again. 

You are right ..... you have convinced no one. The situation is not as simple as you make it out to be. As I have already said It requires much more. When washing a cup for it to be truly clean one must clean both the inside as well as the outside.


 

Hello Ruth,

You can write whatever you want about America, and it won't change over 200 years of history at all. The Holy Bible was a primary reading text in every classroom up into the 1900s, and children were taught to read with Bible verses. America was a Christian nation for a Christian people, and no amount of isolated quotes can change that. The failures of America started when America started changing course at about 1950.  Prior to this time, GOD was the core of everything, including politics and government. GOD is still a large part of everything, regardless of how hard the liberal left and groups like the ACLU have pushed. If anything, we are going back toward GOD now, not away from GOD. The price that we paid for trying to turn our back on GOD is statistically proven in every way that you can think of.

The attempt to show that America  was NOT a Christian nation for a Christian people is impossible. Prayer in every public event and Bibles in every classroom were just small examples of a massive history in GOD. After the founding of our country,  it was the law in most places that you had to be a Christian to hold public office, be a school teacher, etc., etc. It wasn't just a preference for Christians, rather a way of life. Church services were held in all public buildings, and all public buildings were dedicated to GOD. This is why there are prominent displays of the Ten Commandments, Bible Verses, and references to GOD on all older public buildings.

Christians don't apologize for what the Bible says and teaches. The Bible lists many sins, and most of them are and have been incorporated into our laws. It hasn't been that long ago that homosexual acts were a felony in every state of America, and the same is true for adultery and many other sins. The only thing that's unique about homosexual acts is the violators demanding acceptance for their sins. In fact, they are in effect standing up in the face of GOD saying I will be accepted in my sins, and I will keep doing them proudly. Well, this acceptance will never happen, regardless of what laws are passed. First and foremost, GOD will not accept NOTHING but repentance if they wish to be accepted by GOD. GOD won't accept any person without repentance, regardless of the sin. Standing up and proudly defying GOD is a one-way trip to the fires of hell. That's the plain and simple truth, and we don't do the homosexuals any favors by keeping the truth from them.

Knowledge of sin and the consequences of sin is the schoolmaster that makes us know that we are in desperate need of JESUS as Lord and Saviour. This applies to every human being, not just homosexuals. If anyone wishes to continue their wallowing in sin and darkness, their master is and will remain to be the devil. It's just this plain and simple, so lying to homosexuals is not doing them any favor, rather it's a great disservice to one who is facing the curse of sin and death to hell. Nobody can force them to repent and come out of the darkness, but we can and should tell them the truth. Every sinner can come out of the darkness, confess their sins, pray for forgiveness, and accept JESUS CHRIST as Lord and Saviour. A sinner can NOT be forgiven if they wish to remain in the darkness, continue in their sins, and remain a practicing _____________ (fill in the blank sin). This does not hint that Christians are perfect, but all Christians must express a desire for forgiveness and repentance. If one wishes to remain in the dark and continue in sin, they will do so without JESUS. It's really just that simple. Sin and the devil will be the master OR JESUS will be the MASTER. Each person gets to choose, and they can't choose both at the same time.

I won't play the "what if" game. The "what if" game is answered clearly in the Holy Bible. Any discussion about what society or any group of people will or won't accept or tolerate has nothing to do with the Holy Bible and GOD. What people or society accepts and tolerates means NOTHING in terms of Salvation and Eternal Life in JESUS CHRIST. So, the only logical thing to do is go to GOD'S WORD and GOD.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Proverbs 24:19-20 NASB  Do not fret because of evildoers Or be envious of the wicked;  For there will be no future for the evil man; The lamp of the wicked will be put out.

Hello Ruth,

I never did apologize for the norms and values of our society in the 1950s and won't. In fact, the norms and values of our society held many plagues in check that we are experiencing now because those norms and values were discarded or crippled. A long list of plagues is the result (i.e. aids epidemic, massive crime rate increases, etc., etc., etc.). Just bluntly, there is always a heavy price for sin, and the erosion of morals also results in the erosion of the quality of life.

Ruth, you freely make assumptions about the Christians here, and those assumptions are wrong. First, you have no idea what the members here do for the LORD, so any conclusions you make are based on nothing. Second, the lowering of morals, norms, and values in society is destructive, not constructive. The proof of this is very easy to measure, and it has been measured in many ways. You appear to be advocating the further lowering of morals and values with the cop out that Christians should be quiet and let non-Christians set the morals and values for our society. [Well, here's a NEWS FLASH: Christians have the same rights as everyone else, and we will not sit down and be quiet. The liberal courts have taken away our rights, and those rights are being restored as we speak. The liberal courts are also responsible for the attempted destruction of the moral fiber of our society. They did a lot of harm, we are paying the price, and a lot of that harm will be undone. Christians won't feel any guilt at all in trying to restore what was lost or crippled.

Let's boil this down to the most simple terms. You and many others are really saying to Christians, "let the powers of darkness rule and Christians will sit down and be quiet." The answer to that is "NO!, we refuse!" There is no irony at all that Biblical morals and values lead to higher quality of life, safety, and peace for everyone. Getting away from Biblical morals and values leads to destruction, lower quality of life, danger, and strife for any society. History provides the proof for the entire existence of mankind.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 31:19 NASB  How great is Your goodness, Which You have stored up for those who fear You, Which You have wrought for those who take refuge in You, Before the sons of men!

Very interesting debate  :o

Ruth, first I would like to say that I admire your enthusiasm to witness to "Biblical Outcasts" as well as your efforts to make your point.  I think, from my perspective, a lot of what you say here is speculation.  I will give you my reasons, take them or leave them, your choice.  The life that I live must be based on laws.  If a law is of man there is absolutely no grounds for the law which has been made.  What authority in my life does another man have over me? Why would I believe in a faith that has governed its laws, distinguished by the Lord himself, who is an absolute authority over me, and yet try to fit the laws of men in with this, try to live "on both sides of the fence."  If someone asks me why I think it wrong to commit murder I can simply reply with "That is what Jesus, my Lord and Savior, commanded.  What does the non-believer have to hold grounds on? Why would I want to put myself into a society that lives in a world created by the laws of men?  The answer is simple for me, I do not want to.  They hold no grounds for me and I personally feel that most of them are poison.  To me a walk with Jesus Christ is very personal.  Maybe to you or I Christ is not telling our spirit to hang a sign around our necks and preach on the corner, but can you say that he has not commanded those who do?  Do you know the plans that the Lord has for their lives?  Do you know all of the gifts that he has given to his servants?, to speculate what kind of lives the people on these forums live, to say that they live in the safety of such places, yet you do not know a single second of the lives of these people once the modem goes dead.  Maybe the Lord wants you to meet with people face to face on a first hand basis, to do the work that you are doing, but that might not be his role for the rest. In troubled thought I find myself in prayer, for the Lord to show me the way to work with other Christians, even if we differ in opinion, to serve Him and only Him.  But I do know that I will not sacrifice the laws of God to show the non-believers of the world that I can be compasionate or sympathetic to their causes.  The word of God is very clear.  If they can't see that a man nailed to a cross, pierced by a spear, spat on and beaten, who suffered for their sins (as well as mine) as compassion, well my agreeing with their laws will not help them.
I pray that your heart will be blessed and that you will continue to learn and continue to search for answers.
Peace to you all!
-Am-

Amen Amorous. As a Christian I am an ambassador for the Lord Jesus Christ. Christians have this authority given to them by the King of Kings, He is the one who was brutally beaten, tortures and crucified for our sins. I will not allow anyone, or anything to put itself above the Word of God, not in my life.

Very eloquently spoken, Amorus and I must say AMEN!



There are laws in some countries right now that because God is not a part of the law of the governement the women are forced into prostitution by that government. There is another government that forces women to have abortions. I thank God for being in a nation that was founded on Biblical principles. When then nation turns from God, which it has been doing< it will be next to impossible to witness to others. Yes it will be done but at the risk of loosing ones life. What benefit is there in that? How many lost souls will be forever lost because they are not allowed to hear the word of God?

We as Christians must witness to the lost and we must fight to keep the laws that allow us to do so.

Amen Pastor Roger, that is the plain and simple truth


We as Christians must witness to the lost and we must fight to keep the laws that allow us to do so.

Very well said.

Well I must praise God if it comes across that way for I do not have the gift of speech.  Often my thoughts get muddled together and I make sense to no one but myself.

John 15: 9 - 26  with special emphasis on 20 -26

Blessings!
-Am-

Then we will both be praising God for a well spoken/written statement.

Make that a trio you two  ;D ;D ;D

Badgering can be a good thing.

Proverbs 30:26 The conies are but a feeble folk, yet make they their houses in the rocks;

Unless you’re up on your biology, you’re probably wondering, “What in the world is a coney?” I certainly was. After doing a little research, I discovered that a coney is a rock badger.

These little critters make their homes underneath rocks and in sides of mountains -- only venturing away from their rocky homes in the quest for food. While the badger stays within his home of rocks, he is safe from his natural predators. He stays close to home because he realizes his limitations. Badgers recognize that they do not have strength within themselves --- their strength lies in the rocks they call home.

Hmmm. If a coney can recognize his limitations, how much more should we?! We, like them, are feeble folk! If we venture too far away from our Rock , our Messiah -- we will become vulnerable, easy prey! But if we stay within the shelter of our Rock, we can rest in the security He provides!

The winds and storms of this world can shake us up a bit -- but they don’t sway the Rock! Let’s make sure our homes are built in the safest place there is -- on the Rock.

I always like the scripture about building your house on a solid stone foundation, not a sand one MAT 7:24-27
I also read something one time that really stood out in my mind.  It stated that an amateur built the ark, professionals built the Titanic.   :o

 :)  I think that homosexual marriage  is wrong because He, meaning God, shows us that this is sin, no matter how you look at it.  God shows us this in many ways.
When you read the Bible, you realize that God made marriage to be a sacred union between man and woman.
When we hear God talking about marriage or two being joined together He always refers to man and woman.  When He told people what to write in the Bible He gave many commands to the humans of the world.  He told children to honor their mother and father.  He could have said honor both of your mothers or both of your fathers.  But, He did not.  When we read Proverbs, we learn that a wife is to submit to her husband and a husband is to love his wife.  Now, again we know that God could have said wives submit to your wives or husbands love your husbands.  Even after that in Matthew He says that a man is to leave his mother and father and become one with his wife.  There are two very important things said here, first it says that a man is to leave his mother and father.  Not leave his mother and mother or father and father.  Next, it is said that he will leave his mother and father and become one with his wife.  Never once did God say that he will become one with his husband.
We are to follow Jesus’ example and I believe that means his parents.  So, we look at Joseph and Mary (they were Jesus’ parents) and they were man and woman-not homosexuals.  Then in the book of Ruth we find that there was a couple, named Boaz and Ruth.  They loved the Lord and were man and woman.  And again in Genesis we have Adam and Eve who may not have always pleased God, but they did keep the covenant of marriage and were man and wife.   
So in the third book in the bible called Leviticus chapter18:22 Gods says that man should not lay down with man.  Later in the same book in chapter 20, verse13 God says that if a man lies down with another man, he is to be put to death.  That tells us that he strongly hates homosexual marriages.  Though after that, thank you Lord, God sent His son.  This child lived to be 33 and had no faults.  Except this man was beaten, forced to carry a heavy cross up a huge hill, had nails pounded into his wrists, and God set the weight of the world’s sins on Him.  The Son of Man died a terrible, but God raised him to life.  Jesus willingly chose to suffer and give His life so that we would not have to go through that kind of death for our sins.  That means that the homosexuals should not be put to death for being a homosexual.  that is not saying that it is ok to be a homosexual and need Jesus in there life.  God should be the one who judges them and decides their fate in heaven or hell.   
    God gives us the two most important commandments: 1st is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength.  The 2nd greatest commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself.  God shows us how to do this in spite of sin.  This is the whole of Christian salvation – God himself loves His children in spite of their sins.  He did this many times while He was in human flesh.  Just like with the woman at the well and the Pharisees and Sadducees.  He showed us many of examples of how to treat others.  He was angry from time to time but never hateful – even to those who were hateful to Him.  Further, Jesus states that sin is wrong no matter what it is.  One sin is just as bad as the others – all sin breaks the relationship between God and man.  From this, we understand that homosexuality is no worse that any other sin.  Even then God would never want us to be hateful to anyone, even homosexuals.
   Although gay marriages may be wrong, the way to help them realize that this is not to bash them, but to show them the light of Jesus by letting His light shine through us. 
I think that Homosexuality is wrong, I don't think that it is up to us to decide there punishment.  8)

Piusx if this is what you think, then maybe you need to return to the scriptures and see what is really said there!

There is none righteous, no not one, for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of G-d!
For the wages of sin is DEATH, but, the GIFT of G-d is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Because G-d is a righteous G-d we are all condemned to die!We deserve, and should be sent to hell!
The GOOD NEWS is that G-d is also a merciful G-d, and sent Jesus to be the propitiation(replacement
offering)for our sins. Thus we step out of the place of sinners doomed to die, and into the place of
a son that can come BOLDLY before the throne of grace to obtain help and mercy in time of need!

Too many people think that we are human beings having a spiritual experience, when in truth we are
spiritual beings having a human experience!

When we were in school we took tests, and either passed or failed them. Fortunately the test that G-d
gives us in our lifetime are never failed, we just have to keep taking the same tests over and over
again until we get it right! The good news to that is in James...if any man lack wisdom let him ask of G-d
who giveth to all man liberally...

No piusx we don't deserve a whack up side the head, we deserve to die! but mercy says that Jesus took our
place and let us live as sons of God instead of condemned people.
Praise him for his mercy, his grace, and his loving patience!

respectfully yours in Yeshua:

ravenloche

Amen Ravenloche!

None of us has anything to brag about except JESUS CHRIST!


Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 2:1-2 NASB  Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.

homosexuality is wrong. The bible tells us this so many times, I lost count. However, God made the laws. God should do the judging and sentencing. We are told, by Jesus to love our neighbors are we love ourselves. He doesn't give exceptions to that rule. If I am correct, Jesus chose those that were "outcasts", judged and condemned by their fellow man but loved deeply by Jesus. God chose David, although David was a sinner, and continued to be this way. Yet, God loved Him dearly, even after David committed adultery, turned his back on God's word, and many other things that human beings do when we are overly sure of ourselves, or simply don't think before we act.

I don't see any homosexual changing. I am sorry if no one believes that. I have 2 cousins, not only homosexual but also wiccan. I come from Massachusetts, which has a large gay community (and now, legal gay marriage). I have spent much time in their communities, as I found them to be honest and good people. I don't condone or accept their behavior. I simply stand by my beliefs, my Christianity and I love my neighbor.

Many homosexuals were turned off of Christian churches, due to judgment and witnessing on a "bible thumping" basis. Although I do know homosexuals that follow the church and claim to be Christian, I also see none that are able to give up their orientation (oh, they might try, but they still have thoughts that lean back towards being homosexual). However, those that do follow the church and love Jesus do believe in being forgiven and saved. So, who am I to say they are wrong? Yes, I can quote the bible but, God is still the one and only Judge and Jury. I will leave it up to him and continue to just love them as Jesus told me to.

God Bless,
Kelly (Back to being prolific..throw pies, quick!)