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In 2001 the world was surprised by the terrorist attacks against American soil in the form of 4 planes crashing into 3 different places to much literal/emotional/political destruction. It literally destroyed 2 buildings, harmed a 3rd, and killed close to 5000 people. We all know this, and most dont forget a second of the images that we saw and the voices we heard. Now the democratic world is fighting a cross-boundaried war against an unknown enemy that temporarily is embodied by muslim extremists. We might disagree over the war being just, or the true intent of different governments, but in all reality no one agrees with the terrorists. What I am concerned with is the fact that in a subtle and unnerving way the democratic world has basically backed up the use of force to fascilitate peace.

When America first went to war with Afghanistan there was a unanimous outcry that Bush himself was to blame, either for good or for evil. Now that people understand just how covert the democratic countries spyworld is, we now mostly unanimously agree that covert operations should be used to combat the exact opposite, which is these terrorists. The justification of course is that the free world shouldn't have to come into contact with terrorism, so if we fight covertly on the enemies soil to track down and kill evil then we are in fact using all our means to become civilised in a fight that we demand to at least "look" just.

This is not right. The base of muslim extremism is an infinite hatred of our God, and there is absolutely nothing that men can do to stop this problem from persisting. When Sept 11th happened, there were actually 3 wars going on. There was the terrorist war (democracy vs terrorism), there was the muslim war (holy jihad), and there was traces of the biblical war (God against the greater part of the world who honour Satan.) These wars might seem interlinked, but in truth they are not. There are countries with large muslim populations that will be looked on kindly during the tribulation, and there are democratic countries that will not be. Democracy is just our present form of governing, and not Gods unique design to give men godliness. The terrorism war is not new, and it is not based on muslim vs christian, but rather terror revolutionists of all race/culture/faith(religions) and has been waged for years. It is a war of revenge, and all democratic countries were more aware of this war then the Muslim war, and far more aware of terrorism than they are of the bible. The biblical war is really only understood by a few people, and even then only in finite terms.

 The bible itself says "there will be wars/pestilence/plague/wars/rumours of wars... be not troubled, for the end is not yet." <--- paraphrased of course... but it was Jesus' message to believers to see only 1 war, the biblical, and not to be swayed by the happenings of time.

 My idea is simple. Bush is supposed to be a Christian, and so are many other high level people, and supposedly America is a Christian country. This is not biblical, and is the same thing as adding fuel to rumours, based on the Muslim idea that all Christian countries are in fact enacting the Christian God/morals to fight on theyre side. No country in this day can say they are fighting for the will of God, and no country ever does this openly, but many allow that to be the sentiment when they go to war....

 When Democracy went to war against terrorism, they became terrorists based on our own unanimous lack of morals. We can be as moral as we want, but if we do not turn the cheek then when we say we fight for the bible we in fact become hypocrites. When Afghanistan/Iraq turned into fake wars (ie, no continued political justification to be in those places) we in fact played right into the hands of Bin Laden and his terrorist friends. Rich Democratic leaders have become more powerful because of Bin Laden then they ever would have been, and the democracy vs terrorism war has really just begun. In the past it was civil unrest that gave democratic countries the right, or feesible right to intervene with force, but now it is one or two determined men.

Terror is kind of like the manna of media, and it has been a part of our culture since well before Sept 11th, only now, in a day when America/Britain/Canada (and others) pretend they are fighting for God... they give media the strength to create real fictiscious ideas about our unanimous future righteousness in the eyes of God. In all truth there might be more diabolical False Prophets in America then there are in any other parts of the world. Take Tom Cruise and Scientology for example.

The temporary end result of all that has happened since Sept 11th is this : Bin Laden's plan worked, and he has kindled a fire that is so confusing and misinterpreted that he can create sub-leaders of his purpose in almost every land. They are the people who understand no man has the right to kill another, and they come from every kind of descent. Now, in our moments of most self-righteous ideology, I expect that another terrorist attack is going to happen soon. I expect it, because I see democratic countries becoming very pompous in theyre self righteous attitudes, and frankly I know Bin Laden is a smart man, and he knows that Bush is more his friend then his enemy. In the grand scale of things, the man who unwittingly coherses his own immoral publics to think they are fighting for the just God, when they are not... is the more volatile man. It doesn't matter if Bush is a christian or not, he is leading a war that fosters hate, and all that needs to happen is for one big attack against US soil in the next year or so, and there will be an unequevicol uproaring from the masses of democratic people who in the recent past fought against Bush's war. They will be warring against an extremism that is alive in themselves, which they believe will only be hidden by this pompous Christians unilateral military attitude to earth.

 We are on the brink of another great disaster, because as North Americans we can daily feel like whats happening to the world is just, and that it doesn't matter to us. This will forever fuel hatred, and will forever be the base finite thinking that creates the force which will war against our Lord himself. So the next time you are ready to help foster self-righteous attitudes about our people, and how Bin Laden is the sign of the end times, look closer to home... and see the UNILATERAL destablization of peace on all fronts.

 Terrorists hate our money, our immorality and our apathy. But most of all they just hate us for being able to live as if theyre purpose doesn't exist and will be wiped off the earth. It wont be wiped off the earth until God wipes it off, and thus its only going to grow stronger. The truth is that we should be expecting it to cross spiritual boundaries soon. Soon this terror extremism is going to cross into our own people who secretly have always known they weren't living for God, and who know we are, and who prefer the idea that they could kill God by killing us.

 Thats what I believe anyways. Feel free to shoot me down if you want ;)   i mean it metaphorically!!!  I hope

lights out

I agree with this totally and anyone that thinks that what we are seeing today is not in a Biblical war has blinders on. While I agree with you that there are other underlying earthly reasons these wars are what God said will happen and no man will be able to prevent them. Does this mean that we should be like sheep and simply lie down awaiting the slaughter? No not at all. From what you have posted it sounds like you are an advocate of pacifism. In response to that let me post a few things that I have posted before.

_________________________

I have been asked numerous times if it is right for a Christian to be a combat soldier, to kill in combat. In fact this is a question that I had to ask for myself before I decided to join the military.

Nehemiah, a great prophet of God said, "Neh 4:14 And I looked, and rose up, and said unto the nobles, and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people, Be not ye afraid of them: remember the Lord, which is great and terrible, and fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses. "

Some people support the belief that as a Christian we are to be pacifists. Using scripture such as "Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." and " Luk 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. " to support their belief. Based on these verses and others such as Luk 3:14 and Mat 26:52 they stand by the belief that the New Testament teachings are of pacificism.

When the verse (Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.)is taken by itself it does appear that Jesus is teaching complete pacifism. If we look at this verse and study its complete meaning we find that He is talking about civil matters between two individuals. The statement "smite thee on thy right cheek" was used in that time as an indication of an applied insult between two people. Not a physical threat to do bodily harm.

Reading further into the next verse (Mat 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.) we can see that Jesus is talking about civil matters, matters of the legal process and how to avoid staying out of courts.

If we are to apply this to matters of war then is when we have people saying that the Bible contradicts itself or that God has changed. There are no contradictions in scriptures there are misunderstandings in mans mind of them. We know that neither are true because God never changes:

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

In regards to Luk 3:14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

John is telling the Soldier to be a good soldier, not one that is using unnecessary force or wrongly accusing someone. After all he did not tell the soldier to quit being a soldier which is evidenced by his statement "be content with your wages". The soldiers at that time were being offered a bounty in addition to their wages for each person that they brought in that was in defiance of the laws. Many of them were beating up and wrongly accusing individuals in order to collect this extra money. This is what John was talking about, not pacifism.

In the verse "Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." it was in reference of going against the local authorities and in reference to stopping the soldiers from taking Jesus. Jesus knew what was required of Him and that such an action would prevent His going to the cross as is evidenced in the verses that followed this one.

Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
Mat 26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

Complete pacifism is a non biblical position. Although being able to appeal to superficial arguments of conscience and quote the odd verse out of content - the whole spirit and thrust of pacifism is anti Christian. Pacifists may be sincere - but they are sincerely wrong.

A Christian, by definition, must be active - with his or her sleeves rolled up, being willing to get his hands dirty protecting the innocent, defending the defenceless and saving lives from unprovoked aggression. Christian love is not mere words and sentiments. True love shows itself in action. (1 John 3:18). If all Christians refuse to fight then it will leave the battle fields in the hands of men without a conscience.

Pacifism finds it's rots in HUMANISM. Despite some impressive but superficial Christian pretension, pacifism is humanism. In common with humanism, pacifism shares a false idea of man. It sees man as basically good. To the pacifist all people are just too good to kill. Neither rapists, murderers nor terrorists deserve to be stopped, in the view of the pacifist.
In contrast to this notion of people being basically good, the Bible teaches us that the heart of man is desperately wicked and deceitful;that they are quick to hurt and kill; they leave ruin and destruction wherever they go... everyone has sinned and is far away from God's saving presence. (Romans 3:15,23) Pacifists often display more concern for the aggressor than for the defender, more sympathy for the criminal than for his victim.

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Our Lord Jesus may have been meek but He was never mild! His teaching was powerful, dynamic, direct and uncompromising. This tough carpenter from Nazareth was able to survive forty days fasting in the desert and forty lashes from the brutal Roman whip. He could walk hundreds of kilometers in the blazing heat of Palestine's inhospitable terrain and He could walk through a murderous mob with such a presence that no-one dared stop Him (Luke 4:28-30).
When Jesus saw how corrupt men were desecrating the temple with their money-grabbing greed, He made a whip, overturned their tables and drove them forcibly from God's House (Matthew 21:12-13).

Jesus told His disciples, "Luk 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

When Jesus returns to this world it will be as the conquering King of Kings and Lord of Lords. The Bible teaches us that the first time Jesus came as a Saviour - and all who turn from their sin and trust in Christ, following Him in obedience, are saved. But when Jesus comes again it will be as Judge - and all who have not repented and obeyed will be condemned and eternally punished. The Scripture warns us that when Jesus returns He will annihilate the forces of the false church and the Antichrist. We are told that rivers of blood will flow from the carnage of mankind's rebellion against Christ (Revelation 14:19-20).

"....... and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. (Revelation 19:11,15,16).

Pacifism also has an unrealistic view of society. The reality of this world is that it is a fallen world, inhabited by sinful mankind in rebellion against the Creator. Idealistic fantasies about a world of peace and Utopia without war are cruelly false and dangerously deceptive. In the Bible we are warned that those who say 'Peace! Peace!' when there is no peace are 'loathsome' false prophets (Jeremiah 6:!4; 8:11). Jesus warned us that 'wars and revolutions' would increase (Matthew 24:6,7; Luke 21:9,10). We are warned in the scriptures that 'While people are saying 'Peace and Safety', destruction will come on them suddenly.' (I Thessalonians 5:3)

'PEACE' seems to be the modern equivalent of Baal worship. There is an irrational worship of peace. This selfish materialistic age has made an idol out of peace. 'Peace at any price' inevitably leads to tyranny and destruction - the peace of a graveyard.

People say that war is hell - but often peace is worse. More people died in the peace following the revolution in CAMBODIA than died in the entire war before it. Three-milion Cambodians (40% of the population) were slaughtered by Pol Pot's Marxist Khmer Rouge in the 'peace' following 1975. In fact, more people have been tortured, maimed and massacred in times of peace than in times of war during the last century!

Have we become so soft, decadent and self-seeking that we are no longer willing to risk our lives for anything? Is nothing worth fighting for? Do we have nothing worth defending? Do we care so little for others that we're unwilling to risk anything for their protection? Are we so engrossed in watching videos, in 'wine, women and song' that we can no longer tell the difference between right and wrong? Or don't we even care?

For centuries Christians have believed that there were worse things than war. For our ancestors death in battle was not the worst thing that could happen to them. An eternity in hell was. They did not fear death. They feared God. They realised that death for the Christian is not fatal. They had a clear belief in eternal life. Principles were more important then personal safety. Duty, honor, country, family and God meant more to them than selfish desires for peace and safety. And thank God for that because the faith and freedoms we enjoy were won and preserved by their blood, sweat and sacrifices.

The wise Christian does not seek to selfishly avoid the problems of this world, but courageously steps out in faith to be part of the solution. We should recognize that sinful man needs to be restrained by laws and by force, that liberty needs to be defended, that our freedoms came through, and often need to be maintained by hard fighting.

If all Christians became pacifists, would all non-Christians also become pacifists?
Not likely.

It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism - while the wolf remains of a different opinion (-W. R. Inge). The Bible declares: 'Blessed are the peacemakers' - Matthew 5:9. NOT blessed are the pacifists! You have to make peace. It takes action. For the pacifists hoping for worldwide peace - Jesus said: 'Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.' (Matthew 10:34)

No matter if we sat here and did nothing or if we go to war and fight it is imminent that we will have terrorists trying to kill us. In the same aspect satan will try all he can to take as many souls as he can. Do we sit and do nothing or do we do what we can to save as many as we can.

Was my thread titled "pascifism"? Nope. if you want to go killing people for Jesus go right ahead, but unlike you I dont read the New Testament as a justification for governments, but for individuals between them and theyre God. The way for you to work up the ladder (Jacobs ladder) is to preach the gospel, not spray bullets back at an enemy. If you are in danger of dying then its your time to go, and if you can save someone by throwing your body in front of theyres on the street, then do it, and trust in God that he sees your sleeves rolled up doubly.

 The most indepth thing Jesus taught about government is for us to pray for them, not to be involved. And military/army is government. You cant escape it, they are intertwined beyond our ability to discern right and wrong. If you (YOU) feel it right to be in the army, then that is an individual feeling based on how YOU see the world, not from something direct you could EVER find in the new testament. And if you found your peace from the Old Testament, then I would agree that God has peace in the Old Testament for people in that situation, and I almost saw it for myself at times. I didn't however, when I walked in the reserve office the man said "this is a jump throug a window, run up behind a guy and slit his throat kind of job" (and i live in canada, but take into account the geo political world is rapidly changing. When he said it, I felt God inside me cringe. Even if I made it out of my time of duty able bodied to serve Jesus' true purpose, perhaps I would have been clouded by the world based on me not having a direct verse to justify me to begin with.

So when I say you might get peace from the Old Testament to be in the army, what I mean is that God might need some righteous hearts on the battlefield, that doesn't mean us who stay home have to be blinded by our pompous governments. Nor by the consequences of theyre actions, or the actions of the media/culture which reflects the beliefs of its country.

I most deffinately disagree with you. And your attitude is exactly what I'm talking about. You not only think it is right for some Christians to be on the battlefield for the purpose of God having some morally upright hearts in the dark spots of the world, but you think our Countries in whole are righteous in theyre actions.

Do you not realize that the average Muslim regards Jesus as one of theyre prophets? I dont agree with them of course, but it is a direct sign that God is working with them to show that Mohommad needed to retain the birth of the peace knowledge he had (which was Abraham/Jesus.) So are you ready to just smash out the hope of the worlds Muslims to one day be converted to the truth just because you want to be apathetical about the fact it is US, and not the U.S. that is fuelling the extremists purpose? And I do notice you are from the USA, I am referring to genuine Christians, who unbeknownst to most everyone in the world, are the only way any country has the continued idea they are just. Because we who would know what peaceable words to say dont stand up, the people who know theyre purpose isn't peace, but relative calm DO stand up. We are telling the extremists through our peace inaction on our own soil that we embrace the idea of Bin Laden as the Anti-Christ, and it is an apathy situation that the New Testament is outrightly against.

God bless

I did not say that every persons calling is government/military. Nor did I say that we are to go around wantonly killing people. If you are called elsewhere then by all means go as called. Our governments actions are not what is calling these terrorists to action. Irregardless of what we do or do not do as a country these people will go forward with their agenda. They will pick at whatever they want to arouse their people to that cause.

These cartoons that they are carrying on about is a prime example of this. Those cartoons have been out for many years, yet they are now using them to arouse hatred. The koran teaches hatred, it teaches death to those that do not believe as they do. I do not advocate the killing of these people. I do advocate stopping them from killing others.

You say that the Bible does not tell us to be in government nor to participate in it? The Bible does not tell us to stay out of it either. When the soldier in Luke 3:14 the soldier was not told to quit being a soldier. Yes, we should attempt to solve disputes in a peaceful Godly manner. That does not always work and sometimes force is required to stop people from hurting others.





Yes, the NT does teach us about having a personal realtionship with God. It also teaches us about governments if you read what I posted above you would have seen that.

Peaceable words mean nothing to those that are so filled with hatred that they cannot hear them.

Do you realize that demons know the name of Jesus and tremble?   Surely that is a sign that God is working through them  ::)   I can't believe what I am hearing here.



The extremists had all the fuel they needed/wanted to attack us before we entered any war with them.   This is all non-sense!






Hello!??  We are not trying to tell Bin Laden (Police be upon him) that he is the Antichrist or that we are more just than him.   We are trying to tell him and all his followers that we don't like him killing innocent men women and children who are minding their own business at the work place, and we wont stand for that here or anywhere else.   Any person (in their right mind anyway) should be able to see this plainly.





Here's what God has to say about this...



Rom 13:1  LET EVERY person be loyally subject to the governing (civil) authorities. For there is no authority except from God [by His permission, His sanction], and those that exist do so by God's appointment. [Prov. 8:15.]
Rom 13:2  Therefore he who resists and sets himself up against the authorities resists what God has appointed and arranged [in divine order]. And those who resist will bring down judgment upon themselves [receiving the penalty due them].
Rom 13:3  For civil authorities are not a terror to [people of] good conduct, but to [those of] bad behavior. Would you have no dread of him who is in authority? Then do what is right and you will receive his approval and commendation.
Rom 13:4  For he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, [you should dread him and] be afraid, for he does not bear and wear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant to execute His wrath (punishment, vengeance) on the wrongdoer.
Rom 13:5  Therefore one must be subject, not only to avoid God's wrath and escape punishment, but also as a matter of principle and for the sake of conscience.


Sorry but there it is in black and white.


Blessings!

ROFL! Sorry! I spewed coffee on that one!  :-X

Acts 10:1
[ Cornelius Calls for Peter ] At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment.

Acts 10:22
The men replied, "We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people.

That one did cause me to have to clean my monitor also. Amen, 2T, I found it very hard to believe what I was hearing there also. There are so many people in the world that are blind to the truth of this situation. There is a group right now that has been captured and may even be dead that thought that "calm words" would be effective in diffusing this.

SPEW! Thanks for making me clean, my monitior of my first cup of coffee 2T. How many are blind, in this situation.

Deuteronomy 28:29 And you shall grope at noonday as the blind grope in darkness. And you shall not prosper in your ways; and you shall be only oppressed and robbed continually, and there shall be no one to save you.

1 Samuel 12:3 Here I am; testify against me before the Lord and Saul His anointed. Whose ox or donkey have I taken? Or whom have I defrauded or oppressed? Or from whose hand have I received any bribe to blind my eyes? Tell me and I will restore it to you.

There seems to be an epidemic of coffee spewing going on here.....lol   

And it is your fault, with your statement.

The reason I made this post is because I was positive there were people out there like you folk who are completely blind about you power. You are all wrong. Firstly, the fact that one or two out of a hundred Christians might get the message from God to be a soldier, cannot be an opposite justification for the other 98 to believe everything the government says.

 Take into account my dear friends that the Old Testament was written to the Nation of Israel which has come under serveral attacks in the past of enemies trying to utterly destroy theyre whole people, we have not (save perhaps from hitler if your imaginations stretches that far.) In truth the New Testament is our code of conduct now, even for present day Jews. Do you think Sharon is a Christian, if so, you, and not me, are the truly blind ones. The Old Testament says many things that YOU 3-4 people I guarantee would not want me to stand up and teach. For example : the right to drink in moderation. 1 example is all I need. You would preach back at me that Jesus' principles are completely different than Solomons, and thus I should follow the life of Jesus and not Solomon.

 When you refer to the fact that Muslims remember Jesus with affection as an evil thing, I call you out most effectively. While there is still a chance to be saved, we must be of the heart that all are the same as us. Basically it is the idea of Paul the Apostle who teaches the Corinthians that they have received the Gospel in the same way as he has. The Corinthians by the way were the most immoral setting around. Whoring/drunkenness was just the start. It might as well have been a ghetto in the states where many of American soldiers come from, or towns in Pakistan that still treat theyre women as objects they can rape as they please.

 You call me foolish to expect that the 98 Chrisitans who do not feel it righteous to EVER take up a gun as a job, in this futuristic world (where if you didn't realize, there would be no problem creating forces in every country even without any Christians at all) would in fact use up theyre lives to present peace to ALL people, not a select few neighbours. When we decide what poor people deserve to hear the message of God it will ALWAYS turn into a Christian organization, which I also dont find to be biblical, kind of like the comparison between non-biblical "Christian COnferences" which should in my opinion be replaced with every assembly teaching themselves, or having teachers come to theyre circles. We are to be taken up with the ministry of the saints, and the preaching of the Gospel....

but right now we are taken up with the "end times" like a bunch of proud governments of individuals. We daily go out and represent the fear-mongering among the truly righteous that keeps individuals from being inspired to be servants to Gods universally purposed government. We are to be unaffected (based on new testament principles) by the wars and rumours of wars, and to see that obviously our Lord has not yet returned. So if you are aware that our Lord might return in 500 years just as much as you could in the next minute, then you would have to be aware that certain religions might be purposed by God to see the error of theyre ways. You do not make Gods geo-salvation plans, and to suppose it righteous to be on anyone elses soil in the name of God killing people is like saying that police (as you so mockingly brought up) dont already have the authority of God to shoot to kill if need be.

Every day we are in parts of the world that are unstable to our terms, for the purpose of force, in the name of God, we will be flaunting our scriptures in theyre faces and fuelling the actual biblical war (which we are NOT supposed to do.) The Americans/Canadians/British alone have enoug covert-opps forces/resources to have fougt this ENTIRE war through the back door by simple sharing of information with police, and clear-cut (God-justified) responses to the media to show what they are doing after they do it. The difference here would be that it would draw a clear line for the Muslim countries/masses who DO NOT see the Koran insighting violence, to understand the difference between themselves and the terrorists. As we speak we are promoting violence that in fact brands the Koran as evil, and it is not our place to do so. It is our place to make believers in the Koran to see who God really is by us preaching peace, unilaterally, and unequivocally.

Just because im a Canadian does not mean I dont know what capabilities God has in 1 man, in 1 force, or in 1 continent. Nor does it mean I dont understand your ignorant masses who claim to be Christians when they are not. You have as many evil Churches standing up for our God as Canada does, and I dont see where you get off sitting back behind your computers, finding other geo-poltical nutbars who have similar "end time" nonsense ideas, and thus justify your sons/daughters to suit up and grab a gun.

The feeling of God cringing in me when I am told that the job of a soldier in todays world is to be a trained assassin, is NOT me being weak. Rather if I am right then I am facing off with an entire population as I speak, and that makes me courageous, NOT WEAK. So when I felt God inside me cringe, that in fact was the Universal Church cringing to see how dark our day is. We are such an immoral NA, that when something like this happens around the world we are clouded by our daily lives, and the waste of ourselves we wish to protect. We like being proud in knowing about the end times, and thus we WANT to listen to all the rumours and preach about how they mean the end,and mean we are justified to kill.

 BUT NONE OF YOU CAN SHOW ME A VERSE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT GIVING JESUS/GODS/HOLY SPIRIT APPROVAL TO BE A PART OF OUR COUNTRIES MILITARY FORCES.

btw, take into account "soldier" in NT, actually means police officer. If the police find Bin Laden, then I approve. If you make a military force of destabilization seem like some God-justified policing force, then you are the blinded ones, not me. You would have in essence given a green light to signal the end.
God be with you, and God straighten you out
lightsavour out

LOL..yes I did...I said it and mean it by golly!  

I guess it is time, I address this thread.

A key responsibility of the civil government is to protect its citizens from attack by wrongdoers. This involves punishing those who break the law. It also involves defending the nation from every external attacker, including nations, other groups of people or dangerous pests and diseases. All these responsibilities are encompassed in the power of the sword Romans 13:1-8. Therefore, pacifism is not a Christian option.

War is only justified for defense Romans 13:1-8. It should not be used to expand a nation's boundaries, or to take control of another nation, or to extract trade advantages. This is a fundamental principle. A nation should never need to establish military domination in another region or nation. This doctrine covers pre-emptive strikes which is when a country attacks an enemy who is about to attack.

The militia should be up made of volunteers. Anyone who is faint-hearted or afraid should not be forced to fight Deut 20:5-9. People who are at a critical stage in their lives should not be forced into military service. For example, men who have recently married, started building a house or started a business should be freed from service, because they would not be focused on the battle.

Only the civil government has authority to declare war. Individuals or companies do not have the authority to commit a nation to war. Any declaration of war must be in accordance with correct legal processes [/b]Deut 20:10[/b]

A Christian government should only declare war if it thinks it has a reasonable chance of success. Jesus said that before a king goes to war, he should sit down and consider whether he can match the army that is coming against him. If not he will send a delegation to ask for terms of peace Luke 14:31-32, even if this involves a loss of freedom. For Christians freedom is not an absolute value. It may be better to lose freedom to govern, than to lose a large number of lives in an unsuccessful defense. In fact, because Jesus has set us free, we cannot lose our freedom.

Forgive enemies once they are defeated. Jesus said, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do." Stephen said, "Lord, do not charge them with this sin." We should treat enemies as God has treated us for we were enemies of God before coming to Christ and He forgave us. Luke 23:34; Acts 7:60; Colossians 1:21-23

Those who persist in evil and refuse to live at peace are to be firmly dealt with in the Lord. We are not to sit back and do nothing or continually appease those who do evil. Psalm 109 We are not to be naive or pacifistic.

Always keep in mind that earthly wars have spiritual elements. Paul was inspired to write that our primary battle is not against flesh and blood people but against Satan and his minions and we should fight it as such. Ephesians 6:10-18

About the only thing you have said so far that I would agree with I'm afraid.




I notice you did not respond to Romans 13.  




Are you suggesting that one who differs with your sermon here is unsaved?  I certainly hope not!

Amen DW and 2T.

lightsavour

The NT does tell about Soldiers not just a police force. A Roman Centurion was a soldier not just a police force. The Greek word stratiōtēs translated as soldier in the NT does mean  warrior, soldier, not police.

This is not a Canadian/United States disagreement and don't try turning it into one. No one here indicated such except yourself.

Now I ask the same question that 2nd Timothy did,

no 2nd timothy i think your post was completely ignorant, and took things out of context that i said. which if i did stand up and preach aginst there would be MANY people to back me up. Many who you seem to think agree with you in trashing me without taking into account the full context.,.... esp about me referring to if people want to hear me preach or not. if i have the truth (understanding that i am preaching a need for salvation to the lost, not to us genuine believers) then you have NO right to dismiss Gods ability to use me. You do have a right to be ignopant though, but i would suggest your post/attitude just backs up my post by being unfounded and weak-hearted... the essence of this destablization force

God bless

That is a direct attack against another. Attacks on others are against forum rules and will not be tolerated. Consider this a formal warning. 2nd Timothy did not "trash you", he simply asked a question.

Brothers and Sisters,

I had this thread temporarily locked due to the problems occured on it. It is reopened now for a peaceful discussion of this subject if you wish to continue on it.

Perhaps my first post was a bit brash.   However, this truth that you are claiming, you have offered no scripture to back it up.   I am all ears and still waiting for your response to Romans 13.   Preaching to the lost for salvation is one thing, preaching to the choir is quite another.   All the Christians here that I am aware of have a heart for the lost, but that in no way scripturally prevents us from serving as soldiers in the military.   Even if that means taking up arms to defend our nation.   Show me scripture that says contrary.   You have hinted repeatedly that because we take this position that we are somehow preventing the Gospel from reaching muslims.    How does defence prevent that?

I will wait to hear your response to Romans 13....

::::goes and sits in corner for self appointed time out/cooling period:::  ;D

2T,

You won't be getting a response. There is none to be had.  ;) ;)

Yeah 2T come on out if the corner, it seems that 2 threads started by the same person are nothing but argument on the part of the person that started it.
I pray that the light will come on SOON

:::comes out of corner feeling refreshed with new outlook on things:::  

Sorry if I was bit abrupt with this fella guys.  Just really burns my bacon when some one starts trying to teach something that scripturally doesn't jive.

I saw no brashness on your part. It is sometimes necessary to just get to the point and that is what I saw.

I know it, and most of the rest of us know it brother. Do you feel better, after your bout in the corner? ;) ;D

Why yes I do!...lol

It sounds like the corner is his "quiet place".

Sister, Keep Looking Up!

2nd Timothy,

Brother, I don't think that you were abrupt at all. In fact, I think that you were short: 2 jabs, 1 left hook, 2 uppercuts, and 1 right cross.  ;D

He was grossly misusing the Scriptures. I must add that he was the one who was abrupt (UNDERSTATED!), and that was from his first post here.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 5:1-2 NASB  Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

I don't imagine anyone actually believes that God calls all Christians to be in the military- But He has called many in the military to follow Him. That does not make the military a Christian organization. Nor does it make it UNChristian to serve militarily. But that holds true in other jobs/careers, too. There ARE Christian doctors and police and teachers and ... but that does not make the organization that employs them "Christian". But it does mean that there are Christians in the organizations.

Each one should remain in the situation which he was in when God called him.
1 Corinthians 7:20

Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.
Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. Colossians 3:22-24

Also see 1 Peter 2.
 

You were told that by one recruiter and so it stands that he speaks for all the military? And why were you even talking to a military recruiter if you had no intention of joining?


See Above.


What is a 'centurion'?

Commander of a hundred men.

Original Word ekatontarxh
Transliterated Word Hekatontarches
1. an officer in the Roman army

Original Word kenturiwn
Transliterated Word Kenturion
1. centurion, an officer in the Roman army

CENTURION As the name implies, hekatontarches or hekatontarchos, kenturion, Latin centurio, was the commander of a hundred men, more or less, in a Roman legion. Matthew and Luke use the Greek word while Mark prefers the Latin form, as he does in the case of other words, seeing that he wrote primarily for Roman readers. The number of centurions in a legion was 60, that being at all epochs the number of centuries, although the number varied in the cohort or speira. The ordinary duties of the centurion were to drill his men, inspect their arms, food and clothing, and to command them in the camp and in the field. Centurions were sometimes employed on detached service the conditions of which in the provinces are somewhat obscure. Men like Cornelius and Julius... They and other centurions mentioned in the Gospels are represented by the sacred writers in a favorable light.

Centurion
[ARMY]
II. ROMAN ARMY.--The Roman army was divided into legions, the number of which varied considerably (from 3000 to 6000), each under six tribuni ("chief captains,") who commanded by turns. The legion was subdivided into ten cohorts ("band,") the cohort into three maniples, and the maniple into two centuries, containing originally 100 men, as the name implies, but subsequently from 50 to 100 men, according to the strength of the legion. There were thus 60 centuries in a legion, each under the command of a centurion. In addition to the legionary cohorts, independent cohorts of volunteers served under the Roman standards. One of these cohorts was named the Italian, as consisting of volunteers from Italy. The headquarters of the Roman forces in Judea were at Caesarea.

"The centurions mentioned in the New Testament are uniformly spoken of in terms of praise, whether in the Gospels or in the Acts. It is interesting to compare this with the statement of Polybius (vi. 24), that the centurions were chosen by merit, and so were men remarkable not so much for their daring courage as for their deliberation, constancy, and strength of mind.", Dr. Maclear's N. T. Hist.  

AMEN, BEP's, I've noticed that many who join and don't introduce themselves, just sort of jump right in and start an argument, don't stay very long.
that is good.
God separates the sheep from the goats.

Amen sister. We all have our calling in life. Each of us serves Him in a different line of work. We cannot all be a hand or foot.

Amen sister.  ;)

AMEN sister, allow me to add................

Matthew 31-46 31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory (His majesty and splendor), and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.  32 All nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them [the people] from one another as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats;  33 And He will cause the sheep to stand at His right hand, but the goats at His left.  34 Then the King will say to those at His right hand, Come, you blessed of My Father [you [g]favored of God and appointed to eternal salvation], inherit (receive as your own) the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.  35 For I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you [h]brought Me together with yourselves and welcomed and entertained and lodged Me,  36 I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you visited Me [j]with help and ministering care, I was in prison and you came to see Me.  37 Then the just and upright will answer Him, Lord, when did we see You hungry and gave You food, or thirsty and gave You something to drink?  38 And when did we see You a stranger and welcomed and entertained You, or naked and clothed You?  39 And when did we see You sick or in prison and came to visit You?  40 And the King will reply to them, Truly I tell you, in so far as you did it for one of the least [[k]in the estimation of men] of these My brethren, you did it for Me.  41Then He will say to those at His left hand, Begone from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!  42 For I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink,  43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome Me and entertain Me, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me [l]with help and ministering care.  44 Then they also [in their turn] will answer, Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You? 45 And He will reply to them, Solemnly I declare to you, in so far as you failed to do it for the least [[m]in the estimation of men] of these, you failed to do it for Me. 46 Then they will go away into eternal punishment, but those who are just and upright and in right standing with God into eternal life.

Resting in the hands, of the Lord.
Bob

2 Samuel 22:51 He is a Tower of salvation and great deliverance to His king, and shows loving-kindness to His anointed, to David and his offspring forever.

Hello Sister Maria,

I've thought about this many times, and I think that you are right. We've even had groups of people come here with nothing but an agenda to cause trouble. It boils down to the fact that the devil is not going to like any person or group trying to serve the LORD. So, we should expect to be attacked by the devil when God's Work is being done. In all reality, we should simply smile and work even harder when the devil attacks. It's very unfortunate that the devil causes many Christians to become discouraged and give up.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Matthew 11:28-30 NASB  "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.  "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.  "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

BEP's, I haven't been a member of the forum for even a year yet, but I have noticed that most of the 'trouble makers', once they are exposed and the truth is presented to them they flee, just as the Bible says resist the devil and he will flee from you. All we have to do is keep speaking the truth and backing it up with God's Word and they just don't want to hang around much longer once they have been proven wrong, they even take offense and star name calling and you can just see how their vocabulary changes. Oh well, I am so thankful that we have the Sword of the Spirit, and that we can call on Jesus at any time and the Holy Spirit teaches us what to say.

"lightsavour" has been registered since June 04, 2003. Though I disagree with many of his/her opinions, I can't say that his views are uncommon. Many believe that Jesus was a pacifist. The view most were raised with was of a white Jesus with blue eyes that was somewhat wimpy.

Hello Sister Maria,

Some trouble-makers do flee, but there are others who just get angry and try harder to disrupt the peace and fellowship here. I really think that very few people know what goes on behind the scenes to preserve Christians Unite as a place for Christian family fellowship. Some of the cases are almost beyond belief, and we have those on a fairly regular basis.

Regardless, you are 100% correct that the Word of God is sharper than any two-edged sword. Exposure to this mighty weapon has shaped many millions of lives. Many lost people don't yield with their first or second exposure to God's Word, but God's Word keeps working on them and they eventually give their lives to JESUS. This is just one reason why we know that the promise of God is true: HIS WORD will never return void. We know that many will reject JESUS to the end of their lives, but that still doesn't mean that the effort to reach them was wasted. God may use that effort for the people around them.

Sister, I also love what you said about the Holy Spirit teaching us or telling us what to do with the lost. If God gives us an opportunity to witness, God will also equip us to do His Will. Many Christians say that they lack confidence or they don't know what to say, but it's amazing how God works. I'm thinking right now about children witnessing to their own parents and how this might be the most difficult example of witnessing. BUT, we know that God uses children to do His Will. I know there are times when the polished pastor with all of the degrees fails, and God may use a child or a person with much less skill to bring a lost person to Christ. All we have to know is GOD works in whatever manner HE Will.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 5:19-20 NASB  speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord; always giving thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father;

Hello Sincereheart,

Sister, you make a very interesting observation, and it's quite true. I have two perceptions of Jesus Christ in my thoughts almost continually: one from Matthew and one from Revelation. The contrast is dramatic but completely TRUE. YES, we do have a kind, loving, and merciful JESUS with His arms outstretched to the lost. Those who reject HIM as Lord and Saviour will meet the JESUS of Revelation, The LORD of LORDS pouring out His terrible wrath on evil.

I do think that it's interesting to hear how many people think that JESUS might have looked when He walked this earth 2,000 years ago. Some might base their thoughts simply on His kindness and mercy, but others might add in the rigors of His life and ministry. I would suspect that He was a very strong man, far from being a wimp.

Sister, I think this would make a very interesting Bible study.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 9:9-10 NASB  The LORD also will be a stronghold for the oppressed, A stronghold in times of trouble;  And those who know Your name will put their trust in You, For You, O LORD, have not forsaken those who seek You.

AMEN, Brother. My daughter sends my 3 little grandaughters to church on Wednesday and Sunday every week, and they come home telling their mom and dad all about Jesus. The 4 year old told her on Sunday, "Jesus is the Rock". my daughter was surprised that they have learned so much. That makes me happy. Now my daughter is contemplating going to church too. She was saved at the age of 12, but she slowly drifted away from the things of the Lord. But God in His ever loving mercy and grace, never gives up on His own. And no one can snatch one of His out of His hand.
Hallelujah!

Amen Brother Tom, I too think it would make an interesting Bible study.

Personally I when I think of Jesus it is as a loving Father. One that is gentle and willing to give His very life for those that He loves. One that was not afraid to stand up to the masses of Israel and tell them how wrong they were. One that faced the Roman courts without fear even knowing what was soon to happen to Him. A person with the strength and will to face the trials of the flesh, even satan himself, and remain victorious. Not a weak person at all. Yet the kindest most gentle person that every lived. He was also humble in that He did not think Himself above getting down and in the dirt to help those that He loves so very much.

I just can't resist throwing my 2 cents in. So here goes.

I think Jesus was very authorative, and yet humble enough that little children felt so comforted by Him and around Him. He certainly was not a wimp, although He was meek, and mild. When I read in the Gospels of Matt 21:13, Mark 11:17, and Luke 19:46; I can't help but imagine His zealousness not only for His Father's House, but for righteousness as well. I picture Him as having had such power and authority that no one even dared say one word. Those are just some of my thoughts. Maybe others have additional thoughts or even different views, and I agree with you BEP's this would make a very interesting Topic to study.