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In accordance with these websites, complaining is a sin:

http://www.obeygod.com/sinofcomplaining.htm (http://www.obeygod.com/sinofcomplaining.htm)
http://www.growingchristians.org/dfgc/complain.htm (http://www.growingchristians.org/dfgc/complain.htm)

Now for a few questions:

1) Is complaining always a sin, regardless of what it is about? If not, when is it a sin?

2) What would be considered to be the Bibical definition of complaining?

For example, if I were to watch a movie, and I saw things in it that I thought were cheesy, would it be considered complaining if I said "That's stupid"? What if I were to say "They could have done a better job" or "How could they make a movie like that"? Is it considered complaining if I critiqued a movie and pointed out the things that annoyed me in it?

Another thing, when I found out my brother was smoking, I thought to myself "How could he do that?! He should have known better!" Would that be considered complaining? Is it wrong to complain about sin?

 I always ask a person to give me a verse when they make a bold statement. I dont remember any verses that say clearly that complaining is a sin, and until I do I will answer on the grounds that it isn't necessarily. There are many small things left up to the heart to decide before God what is right and wrong.

I have a better question for you.

 If someone tells you that complaining is a sin, doesn't give a good verse for it, and it doesn't sit well with you, then would you accept it because it sounds like a rule God would give?

 In all reality there could be a verse dealing with this, and there might not be. It really makes no difference to me, but that is because it is such a small matter (ie, complaining about something untoward in a movie, or cheesy.) However, if there is a verse about complaining im almost positive it would be in context, and would most likely be alot more like dissimulation between Saints, more like the complaining of anothers sin that you refer to. The best example to learn from is ....
  Matthew 7:3 "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brothers eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

 What profit is there to have anything but love for all people? Love is the centerpiece of Gods purpose for us. Ideally the wisdom to pray for your brother should be applied to even the tiniest of occasions to keep your mouth/thougts pure from any dissimulation at all, but I'm positive that God is more concerned about what you think of others than compared to what you think/say about cheesy movies. The BEAM that could potentially be in your eye however might be a rapid fire judgement of many small things that you allow to consume you, then that is no different than having one big judgement over just one person.

 Your question is good, but im sure if you dont have a habitual problem of overdosing on complaints against pointless problems, then you probably are just human... and God doesn't expect us to be him, just to love him and all his will.

Hope that helps a little.
God bless
lightsavour out

In the following verse the word murmur means to grumble or to complain.


1Co 10:10  Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

Also read the book of Numbers chapter 11 for a better understanding of the sin of complaining.

Yes, there is a difference between making a simple statement like "I can't stand spinach" and complaining about the trials and tribulations that we must go through while here on earth.

You have complaining mixed up with having your opinion. If you saw a movie and you didn't like it , that is your opinion. if your brother is smoking, giving your opinion of the bad things that happen from smoking is the truth. it's not complaining. btw, engourage him to quit. Tell him of the dangers of smoking. Pray for him.

God bless you,
bluelake.

Don't worry about it. He said that he stopped smoking last year. Now it's a matter of believing him.

The antonym of complain is rejoice.
And you can't do one if you're doing the other.


Rejoice in the LORD, ye righteous; and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness. Psalm 97:12

Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise. Psalm 98:4

Now, wait a minute...  We are called to be perfect, aren't we?  As it says in Matthew 5:48, "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly father is perfect."  I realize the Bible also tells us that no one is perfect, but that does not mean we are to give up on perfection.  I am not saying we should all strive to be perfectionists, but that we should always to remember to give everything up to God.  For example, if I were to say, "I complain sometimes, but that is because I am human, and God will forgive me as long as I love Him."  How arrogant I would be!  However, if I say, "I have complained at times and was wrong, please forgive me," then I will be forgiven. 

I am not speaking against lightsavour, or saying lightsavour is wrong in his/her thinking.  Indeed, I do not even know lightsavour so it would be foolish for me to think that.  My goal is simply to clarify on something that could possibly be taken out of context. 

As to the subject of complaining, as it says in Matthew 12:33-37, "Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and it's fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.  You brood of vipers (the pharisees), how can you who are evil say anything good?  For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.  The good man brings good things stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.  But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.  For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

Words do in fact carry a lot of weight.  As Paul says in Romans 10:10, "For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth you confess and are saved." 

As sincereheart pointed out,
And if we cannot rejoice, how can we confess God's love?

Even if we rejoice one day and encourage others in the spirit of God, what will happen when they see us complaining the next day?  Thus, "Every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.  A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit."  Matthew 17:17-18, and "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."  Matthew 7:19

No offence taken "mockingbird" I hope your not mocking me though lol jk
anyways, if you take my whole post into context rather than just one point you will see what I am saying. I am referring to the humanistic thinking that we have/will have for all of time. There is absolutely nothing you can do to stop the flesh from thinking base thoughts, we are not God, and we will not be God ever, even in Heaven when we are one with Him. My point was about thoughts or complaining against something base, not against people or important situations. There is most deffinately a difference, and in regards to all the many things we can still enjoy doing in life (media, sports, being artists) there are many small situations where our base ingenuity thinks about spirituality in a "too common" way. I am only trying to encourage people not be harsh against themselves for thinking many small complaints during every day, and to focus all energy on being spotless in judging/complaining about people/important situations... and when God blesses you to be thus, then you will also have much more peace to carry into your extracurricular enjoyments in life.

im not talking about something new your allowed to do, that the bible in fact says you shouldn't. Im referring to our present humanity and how it is reflected in the verse dealing with a mote/beam. If you are consumed with small judgements/complaints that perhaps NO ONE will ever hear... then it can still be a beam... i agree. But so can just 1 seemingly small jugdement/complaint about a person/important situation in fact be a beam. It is how you have to look at things. It is a mote to complain about something small that doesn't really matter, because it does matter, but its small.... right? But judging another person IS ALWAYS a beam, which is really the point of the verse I said. If you have a mote then be happy to do spiritual work to have it be gone from you, rather than fear that having a mote is pure evil... because being weak is not something to fear, but something to admit and move on forward from. None of us are perfect, and this is the forumla to not overdose on any form of judging/complaining....  I hope im not being misinterpreted indeed, because then people would think I was saying to strive to have a mote. NO NO... but as a young (in age) Christian, i can tell you that we can appreciate life in so many ways, there needs to be a formula of true spirituality where you know how to deal with your own thought based misgivings. It is the forumla of keeping your complaints to yourself through prayer/confession

Do you agree mockingbird?
lightsavour out

???


???

sincere heart, did u actually ask a question   ..... or more likely.... did u ask me something out of context that I cannot discern what it is?
im not against you disagreeing with me, if you can see how i took time to respond to mockingbird then you will see i would have taken time to respond to you too. I wont however, because i feel if you read the whole context of what I have already said in 2 posts you will see these 2 sections you pulled out to make perfect sense.

otherwise,,, what is your question?
lightsavour out

Hi lightsavour,

I have a question on the portion that Sincereheart quoted. Are you saying that is the humanistic (flesh) tendency to think and not the actual spiritual situation?

I would say that God thinking to us is our spirituality, and nothing less would constitute good thoughts. Also I would say that in regards to actions for his purpose, that only in seeing Gods Almighty strength to give us that opportunity will ever equate us actually doing something for God. Thus we can do an infinite number of things for God in our lives, but it is all based on our motives in each moment, and not our positional truth. So to say because you are striving to do good that you are in fact thinking like God is completely wrong. Our potential good acts in time are in essence giving all glory to God (triune.) So our testimonies should always be humble and aware of just how much we ourselves need the message we are sharing to souls we hope would receive it.

 So yes I would say it is our spiritual tendancy(fleshly state) to think base thoughts, and Gods complete/perfect conviction to fill us with the opposite of us. Even before we get saved we will have a history to look back on (I hope and pray) that is both beautiufl/complex/simplistic. It is a history of God(triune) working to open our hearts to him, but it is also a history of slavery to the devil himself. After we get saved we have the Holy Spirit within us always desiring to have our heart more open to hear God, but in fact God is already in us fully, it is only us who can give more of ourself over to him. So to say that our base of thinking gets changed at salvation, or anytime into Gods thinking is incorrect. Scripturally we only understand a finite portion of what God intends for us to believe/accept is true. Our humanism/flesh will continue for all of time, all we can do is become more willing servants to obey Gods will and refuse our own.

It is the daily spiritual purpose of dying again on the cross with Jesus, and being reborn again of the spirit. We dont get saved again, but we need to redeem the time each and every moment, and the spiritual forumla is prayer/confession that will keep us always yearning to understand the door of Jesus more every day.

Basically what Im saying is this : Show me the most genuine spritiually influential preacher/teacher/pastor in time and I will show you a man whose thoughts continually fail him.

Does that answer your question?
lightsavour out

A little bit drawn out but yes it does.



Mat 10:19  But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
Mat 10:20  For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.


Rom 8:5  For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6  For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8  So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12  Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13  For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15  For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16  The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17  And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.


1Co 2:4  And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Co 2:5  That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

a few too many verses to corroborate something i already so eloquently explained, but yes I agree
lol
lights out

Humility ........    ;) ;)

No question. The two statements, read in context, are erroneous.

Not necessary.

I actually did read your whole post. What I missed are the Scriptures used to form your opinion. But again, it's not necessary that you respond to me.

I have no questions for you at this time.

Let me add of a few of these...
 ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D

So that folks reading will KNOW you MUST be kidding.  ;)

Moses and Aaron told the People of Israel, "This evening you will know that it is GOD who brought you out of Egypt; and in the morning you will see the Glory of GOD. Yes, he's listened to your complaints against him. You haven't been complaining against us, you know, but against GOD."
Exodus 16:6-7

Be hospitable to one another without complaining.
1 Peter 4:9

You sure do read a lot into what wasn't said. You may want to avoid putting "mind reader" on your resumes.  ;)

As for you being lacking in regards to Scripture references, let me take a quote from you:
"I always ask a person to give me a verse when they make a bold statement."  ;)

Sounds like a bit of self-righteousness to me.


Any hostility you are feeling is not from an external source.



Good advice for you to take.


btw .....  Rules for posting are made by Admin, not by individual members.

and i have broken the rules where?
or I have made rules where?
did I make bold statements about complaining? they would be bold if most dont agree, i would hope you agree with the mote/beam thing
and by the way mote/beam is in the bible
i do make bold statements often without sighting the scripture it is from, but they are the statements i hope we already in agreeance in, and where enough scriptures have already been stated by others
as ive said, this isn't us being taught by 1 guy, who tells us what to read. it is a discussion forum
am i being punished for being better at the "discussion" aspect than others ;)

btw i take a breather after or before every post, but i wont not respond when i have been so eloquently teamed up on in a subtle way

so lets calm down together, and maybe since i dont know anything about you guys, which is mostly the way it should be, you should stop thinking you know anything about me
when i receive hostility from unknown forces of words, it doesn't have to be from a particular source, external, or your internal anger, it is in words... and I will refute them with my own.... that doesn't mean im hostile, it means I respect myself, and see how easily one person can be made to look like a fool by a bunch of howling hyenas. I use words so that you dont become those howling hyenas, because if you words back and settle the discussion down then we are all civilized, and the hyenas become a picture only making sense to politicians and media nuts

tty soon no doubt
lights out

lightsavor, there is never a time when we can have too much of God's Word on any subject.

1. Right now you ARE complaining
2. You are insinuating that we are in your words "a bunch of howling hyenas"
in my opinion I guess your signature 'lights out' is quite fitting.

"You will find that, as a rule, those who complain about the way the ball bounces are usually the ones who dropped it."



We may know it by different terms -- such as griping, grumbling, whining, or belly-aching. In the King James version of the Bible, the common term used was “murmuring.” But regardless of the word we use to describe it, complaining always has the has the same syptoms. The dictionary defines it as “an expression of unhappiness, dissatisfaction, or discontent.” Complaining is the outward expression of discontent from within.

As we look back into the Old Testament and see how God dealt with the Children of Israel, we discover that the Lord always considered their complaints as an act of unbelief directed toward Him. When they complained about their circumstances, their type of food, and even at Moses, God was displeased because they weren’t thankful for what He had provided them. He was disappointed that they refused to trust in Him to provide, protect, and direct the order of their lives. "Num 11:1  And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp."

Regardless of whatever circumstances may cause discontent or dissatisfaction, complaining is always an expression of unbelief toward God’s order in our life. You see, the whole premise of Christianity is that Jesus becomes the Lord (boss) of our life and our circumstances. They are in his hands. Thus, if believers complain, it really becomes an accusation against our Lord, in whom we’ve trusted our lives. "Exo 16:8  .......   for that the LORD heareth your murmurings which ye murmur against him: and what are we? your murmurings are not against us, but against the LORD. " (See also Psm. 106:24-26)

Complaining is unbelief in God’s Word which says "Rom 8:28  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." If the Christian really believes that the Lord is in control of their life, and is working “ALL THINGS together for our good,” he will stop complaining and start thanking the Lord for the plan He is working together for us.

Even when the Devil comes against our faith with trials that are “not so good,” God will even turn these situations around and “work them together for good” as we remain steadfast in faith. Don’t become bitter and start complaining, but continue to praise God and give thanks to God “in spite” of all things. This will prevent the Devil from overcoming you with discouragement and will send him fleeing. "1Th 5:18  In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you."

Thanksgiving is the expression of gratefulness and faith in God, and is the very opposite of complaining. Giving of thanks expresses appreciation for what God has done, what He has promised, and the confidence that He is directing our life with His order and provision. God will answer prayers and work in the behalf of the thankful (Psm. 50:14-15).

The Apostle Paul warned Christians to avoid the danger of complaining. “...nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer” (1 Cor. 10:10). In this Paul indicated that complaining actually gives place to the Devil in our lives and opens the door to destruction by Satan (the destroyer). The Devil thrives in an atmosphere of complaining. Complaining can literally invoke a curse of destruction as it did in the lives of the Israelites who were destroyed in the wilderness.

The Israelites kept complaining that they were going to die in the wilderness (Num. 14:2-3), so the Lord finally got fed up with their whining and actually allowed their complaints to come upon them. He said, “How long shall I bear with this evil congregation who complain against Me? I have heard the complaints which the children of Israel make against Me. Say to them, As I live, says the LORD, just as you have spoken in My hearing, so I will do to you: The carcasses of you who have complained against Me shall fall in this wilderness, all of you who were numbered, according to your entire number, from twenty years old and above” (Num. 14:27-29). The Lord allowed the Destroyer to answer their complaints with the very destruction that they confessed and predicted.

The Apostle Paul tells Christians to do all things without complaining (Phil. 2:14), and the epistle of Jude places complainers in the same category as ungodly sinners who will inherit judgment: “...to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds... These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts...” (Jude 1:15-16). Complaining is common-place in the lives of unbelievers who have no trust in God, but Christians should be people of faith, filled with gratefulness and thanksgiving.

Besides this, the Bible teaches all believers to dwell upon the “good and virtuous” things (Phil. 4:8). So if all Christians obeyed this scripture, what would they find to complain about? Complaining is evidence of not obeying God’s Word.

What about the root of complaining? As said previously, “complaining” is an expression of discontent. Therefore, if Christians were “content” in Christ Jesus as Paul said we should be, they wouldn’t have anything to complain about. “...for I have learned in whatever state I am, to be content” (Phil. 4:11). (See also 1 Tim. 6:8, Heb. 13:5)

I use to think people complained because they had a lot of problems. But I have come to realize that they have problems because they complain. Complaining doesn’t change anything or make situations better. It amplifies frustration, spreads discontent and discord (which God hates - Prov 6:16-19), and can invoke an invitation for the destroyer to cause havoc with our lives.

How important it is that believers guard the words of their mouth! The scriptures tell us that our words are literally the basis for whether we are justified or condemned. Realizing this, we should eradicate negative words, griping, or grumbling, and fill our mouth with praise and thanksgiving!

“But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned” (Matt. 12:36-37).

AMEN brother, SING IT OUT LOUD!!!

Another AMEN! Pastor Roger,

You gave some excellent examples, and all of them still apply today.

I was just thinking back to many pleasant memories about what my parents taught me when I was a child. I didn't understand everything at the time, but I do now. In all reality, everything we have is a gift from God, and I think that's the best way to think about things.

If we have food, clothing, and shelter, God provided it. If we have a talent or skill, God provided it. In all things, we are to give thanks because God doesn't owe us anything. As Christians, we know what we deserve, but the Law of Faith in JESUS CHRIST has set us free from the curse of sin and death. This is the ultimate example, and we should always be giving thanks that God DOES NOT give us what we deserve.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 104:24 NASB  O LORD, how many are Your works! In wisdom You have made them all; The earth is full of Your possessions.

Pastor Roger, I agree with you. AMEN!

And be thankful.

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.

And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

Colossians 3:15-17

Sometimes we read this verse and note that we aren't guilty of those "biggees" as we overlook the others.  :)

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious:
sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, *discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, *dissensions, *factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like.
I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21

AMEN brother, and add to that brother Thankful.

Psalm 100:4 Enter into His gates with thanksgiving and a thank offering and into His courts with praise! Be thankful and say so to Him, bless and affectionately praise His name!

Colossians 3:15 And let the peace (soul harmony which comes) from Christ rule (act as umpire continually) in your hearts [deciding and settling with finality all questions that arise in your minds, in that peaceful state] to which as [members of Christ's] one body you were also called [to live]. And be thankful (appreciative), [giving praise to God always].

1 Thessalonians 5:18 Thank [God] in everything [no matter what the circumstances may be, be thankful and give thanks], for this is the will of God for you [who are] in Christ Jesus [the Revealer and Mediator of that will].

Resting in the hands, of the Lord.
Bob

Matthew 6:1 TAKE CARE not to do your good deeds publicly or before men, in order to be seen by them; otherwise you will have no reward [ reserved for and awaiting you] with and from your Father Who is in heaven.

Here is a devotion that I wrote for a newletter during Desert Storm that sort of coincides with this subject.


Phi 4:11  Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.

The Secret

I've figured out the secret to being happy as a Sailor. And we know, at times, being happy as a Sailor can be a challenge. The secret to being happy is being content and the secret to being content is perspective. One of the reasons I could be content in Bahrain in 129-degree heat is by reminding myself that I wasn't standing watch on a ship as lookout in Alaska freezing my buns off in one of those Alaskan cold fronts. It could always be worse.

We could be much worse off, we could be with out Jesus as our Saviour looking towards a much hotter time. Be content in the Lord.

Amen PR, we should all be content where we are. I keep reminding myself that the physical is temporal, but the spiritual is eternal. I have a Helper who helps me when things are not going the way I expected. He reminds me that God can do more than we are able to imagine.

 2Co 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

 Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

God's ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts. But we can be certain that if we belong to Him, He will always be with us and see us through.

Ps 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; for You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.

Amen sister.

AMEN Pastor Roger, and sister Maria.

There is more than one way to understand "complaining".  I believe the Bible addresses what we would call "whining".  But to complain about something is not necessarily wrong.  For example, if you attend a movie and the sound is too loud and you choose to "complain" to the staff that is not wrong.  Or if you return a carton of milk to the store and "complain" to the manager that it is sour that is not wrong.

"Whining" however is usually the result of our being annoyed or dissatisfied about something that affects us or does not meet our expectations and, as believers, we are, or should be, better equipped to handle those occasions.  How we respond to a "whining" situation could be an excellent opportunity for being a good witness.

Let me lay it out on the table. The main reason I made this thread is because of certain video games. My brother and I like the Sonic the Hedgehog series and the Mega Man X series. However, Sega and Capcom (the companies that made them) have been taking these games in a direction which we do not like. There are new characters that we do not like. The general feel of the games is not what we like. So we tend to complain to one-another about how these games are failing to live up to what the olden years have brought us. Is that wrong?

I don't think that's wrong at all.  In fact I encourage you to complain to the company that manufactures them.  God bless.

The game that I have the biggest problem with is "Shadow the Hedgehog". In the past, Sonic the Hedgehog games have been relatively innocent. There has been no cursing and no blood. However, Shadow the Hedgehog completely changed that. Although I haven't played the game personally, one reviewer said that Shadow curses "every 5 seconds". You can see why I'm disgruntled.