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Scripture indicates that there will be a great lie,announced with the help of the media and perpetrated by a self-styled world leader.

Do you believe such a thing will happen?

God Bless

Greetings God Sent...welcome to CU!

2Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2Th 2:13  But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:


Yes its sounds like there will be a lie the will deceive.   Paul indicates that those spoken of here, are those who have heard the gospel and believed not the truth, and God Himself will send a strong delusion causing them to believe Satans lie.  Scary stuff indeed!   

We see this taking place this very day. As it says in scripture, "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

Calling evil good and good evil is becoming more and more prevalent every day.

 

I guess it is time, I post this..................

The Anti Christ

Where will this sinister person come from? Some have speculated that he will come out of Syria since one of his prophetic types in history -- Antiochus Epiphanes (215 - 164 BC) -- was a Syrian tyrant. But Antiochus was actually of Greek heritage. Could he therefore be a Greek? It is not likely.

It is much more likely that he will rise out of the heartland of the old Roman Empire and that he will be of Italian descent. This conclusion is based upon a statement in Daniel 9:26. In that passage the Antichrist is referred to as "the prince who is to come," and he is identified as being from the people who "will destroy the city and the sanctuary."

We know from history that both Jerusalem and the Jewish Temple were destroyed by the Romans in 70 A.D. Therefore, according to Daniel, the Antichrist must be of Roman heritage.

Will he be a Jew? Many assume he will be because Jesus said, "I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another shall come in his own name, you will receive him" (John 5:43). Based on this statement, people ask, "How could the Jews possibly receive a Gentile as their Messiah?"

But the Bible does not teach that the Jews will receive the Antichrist as their Messiah. It teaches they will accept him as a great political leader and diplomat and that they will put their trust in him as the guarantor of peace in the Middle East.

But the moment he reveals himself as the Antichrist by desecrating the Jew's rebuilt Temple and blaspheming God, the Jewish people will revolt. They will reject him as Messiah, and he will respond in fury by attempting to annihilate them.

The Antichrist does not have to be a Jew. And, in fact, the Bible makes it clear that he will be a Gentile. In Revelation 13:1 he is portrayed as a "beast coming up out of the sea." The sea is used consistently throughout the prophetic scriptures as a symbol of the Gentile nations (Daniel 7:3; Luke 21:25; and Revelation 17:1).

By contrast, the Antichrist's right hand man, the False Prophet, who will serve as his religious leader, will be a Jew. This is revealed in Revelation 13:11 where it says that John saw "another beast coming up out of the earth [literally, the land]." Just as the sea is used symbolically in prophecy to refer to the Gentile nations, the land (or earth) is used to refer to Israel. This does not mean the False Prophet will be an Orthodox Jew. It only means that he will be of Jewish heritage. Religiously, he will be an apostate Jew who will head up the One World Religion of the Antichrist.

There is one other issue concerning the origin of the Antichrist that we need to consider. Many argue that he will be a person resurrected from the dead -- most likely Nero or Judas Iscariot. This assumption is based on a statement in Revelation 13:1-3 where John describes the Antichrist as a beast with seven heads. He then makes the observation that one of his heads appeared "as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed." He comments that "the whole earth was amazed" by this and therefore "followed after the beast" (Revelation 13:3).

The problem with this interpretation is that "the fatal wound" referred to in the passage has nothing to do with the person of the Antichrist. The seven heads represent seven Gentile empires -- namely, Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and the final empire of the Antichrist. The head with the fatal wound that has been healed is the Roman Empire. We know this from the book of Daniel where it is prophesied that the Roman Empire will be the last of the Gentile empires until the end times when the empire of the Antichrist will emerge from a reunited Europe -- that is, from a revival of the old Roman Empire (Daniel 2:31-45 and 7:1-8, 24-28).

The prophecies of Daniel have proved to be absolutely accurate. The Roman Empire was the last of the Gentile empires. It disintegrated into the nation-state system that has prevailed to this day. There have been numerous military attempts to resurrect the Roman Empire, most notably by Napoleon and Hitler. Today, the core of the Empire is coalescing before our eyes through diplomatic means, producing a united Europe that will serve as the base for the rise of the Antichrist.

Another passage that is used to justify the idea of the Antichrist being a resurrected person is Zechariah 11:17 --


It is argued that this passage indicates that the Antichrist will be a person who has suffered a fatal wound. Now, there is no doubt this passage refers to the Antichrist, but I believe it is talking about his fate rather than his origin. Using symbolic language, it seems to me the prophet is saying that divine judgment (the sword) will fall upon the Antichrist's power (his arm) and his intelligence (his eye), and that he will suffer complete defeat (the withering of his arm and the blinding of his eye).

The idea that the Antichrist will be a resurrected person raises a serious theological problem concerning the power of Satan. The Scriptures make it clear that the Antichrist will be Satan's man, empowered by him and possessed by him. But there is no indication in Scripture that Satan has the power to give life to anyone. Satan is not omnipotent. Jesus is the one who has "the keys to death and Hades" (Revelation 1:18).

One of the most commonly asked questions is whether or not the Antichrist is alive today. I believe he is, and I believe so for two reasons. First, I believe the Scriptures teach that the generation that sees the re-establishment of Israel (May 14, 1948) will live to see all the end time prophecies fulfilled (Matthew 24: 32-34). Second, I believe the signs of the times clearly indicate that we are standing on the threshold of the Tribulation, the most important of those signs being the regathering of the Jews to their land (Isaiah 11:10-12) and their re-occupation of the city of Jerusalem (Luke 21:24).

If the Antichrist is alive today, does he know who he is? I think not. I don't think he has the foggiest idea of the role that Satan has in mind for him. He will not become the Antichrist until Satan possesses him and empowers him to deceive Europe and the Jews. His full revelation will not occur until he enters the rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem in the middle of the Tribulation and declares himself to be god. 

He will be strong willed and reckless in his determination to have his way. He will show contempt for human traditions and will, of course, change even the calendar so that it will no longer be related to the birth of Jesus (Daniel 7:25).

Another point that is emphasized repeatedly is that the Antichrist will be possessed by Satan, just as Judas was (Luke 22:3). Daniel says his power will be mighty, "but not by his own power" (Daniel 8:24). Paul says his coming will be "in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders" (2 Thessalonians 2:9). John says that Satan will give his power and authority to the Antichrist (Revelation 13: 2).

Because he will be demonized, he will be a man who cannot be trusted. Psalm 52:2 says he will be a "worker of deceit." Psalm 55:21 says his speech will be "smoother than butter" but his heart will be filled with war. Psalm 5:6 calls him "a man of bloodshed and deceit." In Psalm 43:1 he is referred to as a "deceitful and unjust man."

Daniel indicates that he will be a sexual pervert, most likely a homosexual. As Daniel puts it, the Antichrist will show no regard "for the desire of women" (Daniel 11:37).

The overall picture is that of an ego-maniac who abhors God and exploits people for his own purposes. He is deceptive and ruthless. He is a man devoid of integrity. This is probably the reason that when Jesus returns, John characterizes Him as the "Faithful and True" One (Revelation 19:11), in contrast to the Antichrist who has been both unfaithful and untrue.

The lack of character that will be displayed by the Antichrist is perhaps best summed up in some of the names given to him in the Scriptures:

The Beast -- Revelation 13:1
The Man of Lawlessness -- 2 Thessalonians 2:3
The Son of Destruction -- 2 Thessalonians 2:3
The Despicable Person -- Daniel 11:21
The Willful King -- Daniel 11:36
The Worthless Shepherd -- Zechariah 11:17
The Insolent King -- Daniel 8:23
The Abomination -- Matthew 24:15

His Career

The Rapture of the Church is the event that will launch the career of the Antichrist. This is revealed in 2 Thessalonians 2 where Paul states that the Antichrist cannot be revealed until "he who now restrains" him is "taken out of the way" (verse 7). The restrainer of evil in the world today is obviously the Holy Spirit, and the Spirit performs that task by working through the Church.

It is the Church that will be "taken out of the way," not the Holy Spirit. We know this for certain because the book of Revelation teaches that a great multitude will be saved during the Tribulation (Revelation 7:9-14), and no one can be saved apart from the witness of the Spirit (John 6:44, John 15:26, and 1 John 5:7). The Spirit will remain in the world, but the agency the Spirit currently works through to restrain evil, the Church, will be removed.

cont'd next post.

Hello God Sent,

WELCOME!!


YES!, I believe this will happen, and I firmly believe that ALL Bible Prophecy will be fulfilled completely and perfectly at God's Appointed time.

I do believe that the end of this Age of Grace may be drawing near. Regardless, there is always an urgency:

1 - To witness to the lost.

2 - To grow strong in God's Word and the Power of His Might.

3 - To put on the whole armor of God and go forth to do God's Will.

4 - To keep Christ as the focus for this short life and make Him The LORD over our life.

5 - To pray that God helps us in saying and doing only the things that will bring Glory ONLY to HIM.

Christians have differing opinions about Bible Prophecy, but very few Christians could disagree with the priorities listed above. I am one who believes Bible Prophecy in a literal way. I love the subject of Bible Prophecy, but I don't like arguing with other Brothers and Sisters in Christ. I do enjoy pleasant and loving discussions about differing opinions on Bible Prophecy, and I enjoy studying Scriptures used by others who have different opinions. Bible Prophecy is a very difficult and time consuming study, but it is a beautiful study that takes you through most of the Holy Bible. I would always conclude my thoughts that differing opinions about Bible Prophecy should never cause divisions between Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

God Sent, I sincerely hope that you enjoy Christians Unite. I'm looking forward to reading your posts and having fellowship with you.

Love in Christ,
Tom

Psalms 143:8 NASB  Let me hear Your lovingkindness in the morning; For I trust in You; Teach me the way in which I should walk; For to You I lift up my soul.

The Rapture itself is likely to be the event that will catapult the Antichrist to power. This is because the Rapture will produce international chaos and panic. The Antichrist, energized by Satan (Daniel 8:24), will seem to have all the answers to the world's problems. He will take over the European Union through skillful intrigue (Daniel 8:23) and will establish his headquarters in Rome (Revelation 17:3,9,18).

The seven year time period of the Tribulation will actually begin when the Antichrist negotiates a treaty that will bring true peace to the Middle East, enabling the Jews to rebuild their Temple (Daniel 9:27). With his European base consolidated and peace achieved in the Middle East, he will set forth to subdue the whole world.

One of the myths about the Antichrist that has developed in modern day interpretation is that the whole world will become so enamored with him that all the nations will surrender their sovereignty to him voluntarily. The Bible does not teach this. It is also contrary to common sense. Africa and Asia and Latin America have not spent a century casting off European colonialism in order to suddenly turn around and receive a European dictator with open arms.

The world will resist him, and the result will be a Third World War in which he "will destroy to an extraordinary degree" (Daniel 8:24). This war will initially result in the death of one-fourth of humanity, or 1.5 billion people in today's terms (Revelation 6:2-8). As the Tribulation approaches its mid-point, this war will escalate into a nuclear holocaust that will result in the deaths of an additional one-third of those still alive -- another 1.5 billion (Revelation 8 and 9).

It will be a empty victory because in the process of his conquest, one-third of the earth will be destroyed and half its population will be killed. He will then consolidate his "victory" by instituting a one-world economy and a one-world religion.

The key to his economic control will be a mark that each person will have to bear on their right hand or on their forehead (Revelation 13:16-18). No one will be able to buy or sell unless they have this mark. The mark will consist of "either the name of the beast or the number of his name" (Revelation 13:18).

His religious control will be exercised by a false prophet who will head up his pagan religious system (Revelation 13: 11-15). He will force all of humanity to worship the Antichrist. He will be a deceiver who will astound people with "great signs" that appear miraculous in nature. In order to consolidate this Satanic religious system, the Antichrist will launch a great persecution of all those who have placed their faith in the true God since the Rapture of the Church (Revelation 12:13-17). The result will be a mass slaughter of believers (Revelation 7:9-14).

This means that by the mid-point of the Tribulation, the Antichrist will have killed more than half of humanity (1.5 billion in the seal judgments, 1.5 billion in the trumpet judgments, and an undetermined multitude of saints.) It is no wonder that he is referred to in Scripture as "the man of lawlessness" and "the son of destruction" (2 Thessalonians 2:3).

Nor will all this slaughter satisfy his blood thirst. About the time that the Antichrist has consolidated his world empire, Satan will be cast from Heaven and will come to earth in "great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time" (Revelation 12:12). At that point he will possess the Antichrist, even as he possessed Judas (Luke 22:3).

When the Antichrist becomes Satan incarnate, he will become a megalomaniacal tyrant obsessed with two things: himself and the Jewish people.

He will suddenly march into the rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem, stop the sacrifices, blaspheme God, and declare himself to be the one and only true god (Daniel 9:27 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4). And when the Jews reject this horrible blasphemy, he will turn on them and seek to annihilate them. This will be his all-consuming passion during the second half of the Tribulation. That's why Jesus told the Jews that this period of time would be the "great tribulation" (Matthew 24:21) -- not because it would be worse than the first half, but because the wrath would be focused upon them as a nation and a people.

Satan has an insane hatred for the Jews. He hates them because they gave the world the Scriptures. He hates them because God sent the Messiah through them. And he hates them because God has promised that He will bring a great remnant of them to salvation in their Messiah. He wants to destroy them so that God cannot keep that promise.

During the second half of the Tribulation, he will almost succeed in accomplishing this goal. We are told in Zechariah 13:8-9 that two-thirds of the Jewish people will die during this holocaust (another 9.3 million people). 

His Fate

The Bible indicates that as the Antichrist becomes obsessed with the Jews, he loses interest in his worldwide empire, and segments of that empire begin to revolt. The core of the revolt is centered in the Asian nations who raise an army of 200 million and send it marching across Asia toward Israel where they hope to engage the Antichrist in a decisive battle for their freedom.

Daniel says that while the Antichrist and his armies are rampaging around the Middle East, looting the nations and killing the Jews, the Antichrist suddenly hears "rumors" that "disturb him" (Daniel 11:40-44). He responds by consolidating his forces "between the seas and the beautiful Holy Mountain" (Daniel 11: 45). This is the same area that is referred to in Revelation as the Valley of Armageddon.

We are told that the Euphrates River dries up at this time and the Antichrist and his armies in battle (Revelation 16:12). As they fight, the Lord Jesus Christ breaks from the heavens, returns to the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem, and speaks a supernatural word that causes all the armies to drop dead in their tracks. "Their eyes rot in their sockets and their tongues rot in their mouths" (Zechariah 14:12), and the valley is filled with blood up to the horses' bridles for a distance of two hundred miles (Revelation 14:20).

Paul says the Antichrist will be slain by "the breath of the Lord" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). John says the Lord will make war against the Antichrist "with the sword of His mouth" (Revelation 2:16). Daniel says the Antichrist's "dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever" (Daniel 17:26). Daniel also says that the Antichrist will be thrown into "the burning fire" (Daniel 7:11).

John confirms the fate of the Antichrist in Revelation when he says that both the Antichrist and the False Prophet will be thrown into "the lake of fire which burns with brimstone" (Revelation 19:20) where "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" (Revelation 20:10). This means that the Antichrist and the False Prophet will be the first occupants of Hell. (Satan will not be confined there until the end of the Millennium -- Revelation 20:10).
Our Hope

The good news for believers is that we will not have to experience the horror of the Antichrist. We are never told to watch for the Antichrist; rather, we are told to look for Jesus Christ. In 1 Thessalonians 1:10 we are assured that we who are believers are waiting for Jesus to return to "deliver us from the wrath to come." That is a glorious promise. That's why Paul calls the Rapture our "blessed hope" (Titus 2:13), and its also the reason that he tells us to "comfort one another" with the promise of the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:18).

Resting in the hands, of the Lord.
Bob

Isaiah 66:10 Rejoice with Jerusalem and be glad for her, all you who love her; rejoice for joy with her, all you who mourn over her,

Hello Dreamweaver,

THANKS BROTHER!!

We both posted on the same subject at about the same time. Again, I don't believe in coincidence.

WOW! - Brother, you posted a ton of power-packed Scriptures to study in two short posts, and I do plan to study them. Thank you again.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 3:20-21 NASB  For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;  who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

This is the exact reason why some of us believe that the Anti Christ will be a Jew.  Dreamweaver says it here:
"Will he be a Jew? Many assume he will be because Jesus said, "I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another shall come in his own name, you will receive him" (John 5:43).

Many Jews have changed the name form Messiah to Meshach.  They beliieve their Messiah will come from this earth. And their Messiah can only be a Jew.  Their Messiah cannot be a gentile.  There were other antichrists during Jesus's time and they were all Jews. (see Josephus)  Plus, a gentile will not be able to desecrate the temple unless it's as the Romans did (by force.)  Jesus was their Messiah and they denied Him.  They are looking for their Messiah (Meshach) to be born on the planet earth, to rise, and lead them out of their troubles.  The Meshach can only be a Jew  This man, a Messiah from planet earth (not in the clouds) is a Jewish man who will fool them into believing he is their Messiah when actually, he is the Antichrist. The Jews have only one Messiah and that is Jesus Christ who will return in the clouds. 

Remember I think it was Nathan who turned himself into a leader when Moses was in the mountains? 

Migthor, I taker no credit for Gods word, his word is his word. I only try and put on the forum what I feel led God has led me to do. Yes it is a poor attempt to interpret God word. I feel humbled you you feel it is worthy to expand upon it. As you are an author, and had your papers in a e-zine.

Jesus himself prophesied about such a person.He said,I have come in My Father's name,and you do not receive Me;if another comes in his name,him you will receive. Let me warn you personally to beware of such a leader of humanity who may emerge from Europe.He will turn out to be a great deceiver who will step forward with signs and wonders that will be so impressive that many will believe he is of God.He will gain a great following among those who are left,and many will believe he is a miracle worker.

The deceiver will promise strength and peace and security,but the Bible says he will speak out against the Most High and will wear down the saints of the Most High.That's why I warn you to beware now of a new leader with great charisma trying to take over the world during this terrible time of chaos and confusion.This person is known in the Bible as Antichrist.He will make many promises,but he will not keep them.you must trust in the promises of God Almighty through his Son,Jesus Christ.

Here are two trivia questions for you:

1. Who are the only two characters in the Bible named the son of perdition?
2. Who are the only two persons in the Bible whom Satan himself is thought to possess?

If to both questions you answered,Judas Iscariot and the Antichrist,you get a gold star.

GOD BLESS.

The anti -christ, Revelations 13 & 14 also know as the beast. In the same prophecy Jesus, warns mankind that all who accept the Mark of the Beast will experience the full measure of His wrath, which is to be poured out undiluted.

Though I did forget about Judas Iscariot. :'(

There is a little known passage in Daniel that, I think, gives a huge clue to who the ac might be.....heritage wise, that is.

Dan 11:24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do [that] which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: [yea], and he shall forecast his devices against

This is a reference to the ac, and note two things.....one, that he will enter the "fattest places", which is a Jewish euphemism for areas that have been reserved for royalty or religious leadership.  Throughout the history of Israel, there have been sections of the country that have been set aside for use by the king, or the high priest, or both....but not for others.  According to Jewish "rules", it would be considered a blasphemy for any non-Jew to enter these areas.

Next, the part that says he shall do that "which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers fathers..."  This appears to be a reference to lineage, and in conjunction with the fattest places indicates a Jewish heritage.

I have a study  here (http://www.john812.com/jeweschat.htm) on Jewish eschatology, and how their historical beliefs establish the groundwork for their acceptance of the ac as Messiah.

I also posted here re the "Mahdi", the Islamic version of Messiah, and how their historical belief system and Hadith indicate that he will be of Jewish origin or heritage. The Mahdi is supposedly hiding in a well in Qom, Iran.

Lastly, the chief Rabbi of the Kabbalists recently died.  He claimed to have spoken with Messiah, and that Messiah is currently "in hiding" waiting for the right time to appear....and that appearance would be within just a few more years.....I believe the date for the Rabbi's report was in 2004 or 05....can't remember for sure.

One thing is for sure....he is coming (the ac), and it won't be very long.  :o

And even more sure, is..........JESUS IS COMING!! and it won't be very long!!!  ;D

Brother Hank, I have read your eschatology. And I can say, it is better then I could have done.

Evangelist,

Brother Hank, you've just made it clear again that there are many mysteries hiding in plain sight in the Holy Bible. It's amazing to know what an intricate book the Holy Bible is. I really enjoyed reading the description and application you gave, and I couldn't help but wonder how many other quite logical explanations there are still hiding in plain view in those precious pages. I actually think that we've just managed to scratch the surface in 2,000 years, but I give thanks over and over again that God's Plan of Salvation for man is simple enough for a child to understand.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Proverbs 2:7-8 NASB  He stores up sound wisdom for the upright; He is a shield to those who walk in integrity, Guarding the paths of justice, And He preserves the way of His godly ones.

I've been studying the Bible and prophecies of the end for some 30 years now, and I've yet to see the name "Antichrist" used in reference to the man of sin, or, son of perdition in the scriptures.

In fact, all the scriptures I've studied (primarily Daniel) tells me that the ten-horned beast, or, man of sin is not even an individual man, but rather a race, or, nationality of man.  In 9:26 they are referred to as "the people of the prince", or, the people of the devil.

Therefore, the big deception in these end times may well be the "Antichrist theory".

I'm well aware that the term "race" or "nationality" is not found in the scriptures, however, I truly believe that if God were to refer to a particular race of man in scriptures, He'd simply say, "a man".

That seems to be what the scripture in Rev.13:18 is stressing in reference to the man of sin. "Here is "wisdom".  Let him that hath "understanding........", the scripture says.

That scripture seems to scream out at us that we MUST understand the true meaning of the term, "a man" in this instance.

Hello Biblestudent, and welcome to Christians Unite forums.

I have studied the Bible for 20 years and have never seen the word Bible used as well. There are several other words Christians use, that aren't in the Bible. Yet they are there just the same. The Trinity, named in the Bible, yet we all know the Trinity is real.

You say the word "Race" isn't used, yet.......

Genesis 19:32 (AMP) Come, let us make our father drunk with wine, and we will lie with him, so that we may preserve offspring (our race) through our father.

Esther 10:3 (AMP) For Mordecai the Jew was next to King Ahasuerus and great among the Jews, and was a favorite with the multitude of his brethren, for he sought the welfare of his people and spoke peace to his whole race.

Acts 7:13 (AMP) And on their second visit Joseph revealed himself to his brothers, and the family of Joseph became known to Pharaoh and his origin and race.

Also the word antichrist is used in the Bible.

1 John 2:18 (AMP) Boys (lads), it is the last time (hour, the end of this age). And as you have heard that the antichrist [he who will oppose Christ in the guise of Christ] is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen, which confirms our belief that it is the final (the end) time.

1 John 2:18 (KJV) Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Therefore, I don't see a problem using the word antichrist. Could it be, that you may not catch the meaning of the word usage? This is not an insult, or attack upon you, Biblestudent. Just an slight oversight on your own studies.

Amen DW.


Biblestudent,

I have been studying the Bible for over 50 years. The time frame does not matter. It is what you get out of it that does. I have seen some very young students in the Bible that are very wise in it's ways.

Your comments in regards to the word "man" used in the Bible. Yes in some circumstances this word is used to refer to mankind and not just a single person. This difference is seen when taking the entire sentence in context. In Rev 13 : 18 when the entire verse is taken into consideration it is clearly seen that "a man" does refer to one individual, not many simply because of the word "a" placed in front of it. When the Bible uses the word man as in refering to mankind (many men) it does not use the word "a" in front of it. (As in Mat 4:4  "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.")

I disagree. I believe that "experience" gives an older person advantage over the young today when it comes to understanding prophecies of the end.

Now, in regards to the words "man" and "mankind" in scriptures:

"Mankind" is plural and is used to differenciate between the different types or races of man.

"Man", as in, "man shall not live by bread alone", is plural as well, but means, "all mankind".

Thus, "a" man in Rev.13:18 means, "a" particular "race" of mankind.

I believe that's what Rev.13:18 is trying to convey to us when it says, "Here is wisdom.  Let him that hath understanding".

Anyone, when they see "a man" written, automatically thinks that it's talking about an individual man, but verse 18 of Rev.13 suggests that "a man" in this verse does not mean an indivivual man, and that it takes a good deal of wisdom and understanding of scriptures to know what is being conveyed.

That wisdom and understanding comes from studying the book of Daniel, for Daniel explains thoroughly who the ten-horned beast, or, the man of sin is.  Without that knowledge and understanding of Daniel, one will continue to think that "a man" in Rev.13:18 means, an individual man.

But, the WORD "race" is not found in scriptures, and you haven't shown me that it is.  "Seed", "kindred", and other choice words, yes, but not "race". 

As well, you haven't shown me that the name "Antichrist" is used in reference to the ten-horned beast; man of sin in scriptures.

Then you are disagreeing with the word of God, not me. Wisdom and understanding does not come from a book but from God Himself.

1Ch 22:12  Only the LORD give thee wisdom and understanding, and give thee charge concerning Israel, that thou mayest keep the law of the LORD thy God.

Pro 2:6  For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.

1Co 1:26  For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27  But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28  And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29  That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Co 1:30  But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31  That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

1Ti 4:12  Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

There are many a young person that are much wiser in the ways of the Lord than are those that are older.


Rev 13:18 does not suggest any such thing as you say it does. The Bible frequently uses "a man" in describing an individual.

Mat 8:9  For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

Mat 9:2  And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

Mat 9:9  And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him.

Also the verse in Rev 13:18 goes on to say that "his number is" not their number is.

As for the useage of the word of "antichrist" your argument is moot. The Bible specifically tells us that anyone that goes up against Jesus Christ is an antichrist whether it be one person or whether it be many.

1Jo 2:18  Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

This verse also shows that Rev 13:18 is speaking of one man not many.


The horn spoken of in Daniel is an individual. It explicitly states that it is someone that is in dominion over others.


Dan 7:24  And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Dan 8:21  And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

So we see here that when a horn is mentioned in Daniel it is speaking of a king of a certain nation, not the nation itself.

Hello Biblestudent,

First, I see that you are new, so WELCOME!!


Bible Prophecy is a lengthy and difficult study. You won't understand it unless you leave the Scriptures in context, follow the references and comparisons, and wait for the Holy Spirit to help you develop the big picture. Failure to do this results in your own confusion and you being deceived. You really must look at a chain of events before you attempt to understand one event in the chain. It's also useful many times to work backward from a main event to understand the events leading up to it. As an example, the Antichrist is the devil in the main event, and this will be an obvious reality. Another example of an obvious reality is the RAPTURE of the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. Trying to look for specific words in the Holy Bible that are used today by Christians discussing a particular event is usually not material at all. However, many of the words that we use today have roots in the ancient languages of the Holy Bible. So, arguments about specific words are many times nothing but arguments in semantics. Most of us won't become involved in arguments in semantics because they are usually a waste of time and simply cause one or more of the participants to become angry. More than anything else, most of us try to avoid senseless arguments that lead to divisions between Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

Many of us don't argue or debate Bible Prophecy here because it many times leads to needless divisions between Brothers and Sisters in Christ. On the other side of the coin is pleasant discussions in Christian Love that most of us enjoy and participate in. There are already massive threads on the forum with detailed information about these issues. I hope this helps you some.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 5:1-2 NASB  Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

I didn't say that "book knowledge" makes one wise.
I do however believe that, in respect to Bible prophecy and things of the end, the book of Daniel is a MUST, or else Jesus, in Matt.24:15 would not have instructed us to read it.

Now....the scriptures you quote with the words "a man" in them, they are all in reference to a particular individual.  AND, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who the man is that's being referred to.
Different ballgame altogether in regards to the phrase, "a man" in  Rev.13:18.

In responce to your comments on "Antichrist":

Those verses in 1st John which talks about antichrists have nothing at all to do with the ten-horned beast, or, the "man of sin" who's worshipped in the last days.

John is merely saying to his listeners, "Whenever you go out to witness of Christ, you're going to eventually encounter that one who doesn't believe that Christ came in the flesh!"   "Therefore you must expect it, for there are many of them out there!"

As for Daniel 7:24, I'm glad you brought it up, for that is the verse I intended to reference in my next post.

Has it ever occured to you that "kings" in that verse, means "a people" as opposed to kings or rulers?!

Read it very carefully, because the "ten kings" and the "ten horns" are the 2 main players; or, the 2 spacific groups or, races of people which are being referred to in the rest of the chapters of Daniel.  
The one group; "the ten kings" is the race out of the fourth (European) kingdom on the earth.
The other group; "the ten horns" is the beast; the man of sin.
These two groups are they which are referred to as, the "ten toes of iron and clay" in a previous chapter.

The pronoun "he" which Daniel constantly uses throughout is in reference to one or the other of those 2 races.

Thanks for the welcome!

You'll find that my views are not the norm when it come to Bible prophecies, that's for sure. 
However, I don't intend to argue.  Been there, done that.
I do however, hope that what I have to say may inspire others to dig deeper into Daniel, and to not rely so much on todays well-known  prophecy gurus for understanding.

Biblestudent,

The ONLY prophecy gurus that I pay any attention to are in the Holy Bible. JESUS CHRIST, the Apostle Paul, and Daniel are my primary teachers. I've read a few articles from others, but I prefer the Holy Bible as the primary resource. I can only speak for myself when I say that the big picture of Bible Prophecy is already more clear than words from an ordinary man. The Holy Bible is also inspired by God (God Breathed - God's Word), so I'll keep using the Holy Bible as the ultimate resource.

I said that I can only speak for myself, but most of the people on the forum who study Bible Prophecy use the same methods that I do (i.e. Scripture by Scripture in the Holy Bible).

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 3:27-28 NASB  Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.  For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Biblestudent,

You see things in a different way then I do, thats fine. I may be wrong, I may be right. The only thing that really matters is Jesus Christ.

So I will not debate you, in this thread. If you wish to debate, there is a debate section three doors down. Like you, I am not lacking in the Bible prophecies. That goes for the ending of Grace, and the begining of the End times.

The Antichrist will arise out of the of ten kingsdoms.

Rev 13:1-18 1 [AS] [a]I stood on the sandy beach, I saw a beast coming up out of the sea with ten horns and seven heads. On his horns he had ten royal crowns (diadems) and blasphemous titles (names) on his heads.  2 And the beast that I saw resembled a leopard, but his feet were like those of a bear and his mouth was like that of a lion. And to him the dragon gave his [own] might and power and his [own] throne and great dominion.  3 And one of his heads seemed to have a deadly wound. But his death stroke was healed; and the whole earth went after the beast in amazement and admiration.  4 They fell down and paid homage to the dragon, because he had bestowed on the beast all his dominion and authority; they also praised and worshiped the beast, exclaiming, Who is a match for the beast, and, Who can make war against him?  5 And the beast was given the power of speech, uttering boastful and blasphemous words, and he was given freedom to exert his authority and to exercise his will during forty-two months (three and a half years).(A)  6 And he opened his mouth to speak slanders against God, blaspheming His name and His abode, [even vilifying] those who live in heaven.  7 He was further permitted to wage war on God's holy people (the saints) and to overcome them. And power was given him to extend his authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation,(B) 8 And all the inhabitants of the earth will fall down in adoration and pay him homage, everyone whose name has not been recorded in the Book of Life of the Lamb that was slain [in sacrifice] [b ]from the foundation of the world. 9 If anyone is able to hear, let him listen:  10Whoever leads into captivity will himself go into captivity; if anyone slays with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Herein is [the call for] the patience and the faith and fidelity of the saints (God's people).(C)  11Then I saw another beast rising up out of the land [itself]; he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke (roared) like a dragon. 12 He exerts all the power and right of control of the former beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell upon it to exalt and deify the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed, and to worship him.  13 He performs great signs (startling miracles), even making fire fall from the sky to the earth in men's sight. 14 And because of the signs (miracles) which he is allowed to perform in the presence of the [first] beast, he deceives those who inhabit the earth, commanding them to erect a statue (an image) in the likeness of the beast who was wounded by the [small] sword and still lived.(D) 15 And he is permitted [also] to impart the breath of life into the beast's image, so that the statue of the beast could actually talk and cause to be put to death those who would not bow down and worship the image of the beast.(E)  16 Also he compels all [alike], both small and great, both the rich and the poor, both free and slave, to be marked with an inscription [[c]stamped] on their right hands or on their foreheads,  17 So that no one will have power to buy or sell unless he bears the stamp (mark, inscription), [that is] the name of the beast or the number of his name.  18 Here is [room for] discernment [a call for the wisdom [d]of interpretation]. Let anyone who has intelligence (penetration and insight enough) calculate the number of the beast, for it is a human number [the number of a certain man]; his number is 666.

Footnotes

a. Revelation 13:1 Many ancient manuscripts read "he."
b. Revelation 13:8 Alternate translation: "recorded from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life of the Lamb that was slain [in sacrifice]."
c. Revelation 13:16 Joseph Thayer, A Greek-English Lexicon.
d. Revelation 13:18 Joseph Thayer, A Greek-English Lexicon.

Cross references:

A. Revelation 13:5 : Dan 7:8
B. Revelation 13:7 : Dan 7:21, 25
C. Revelation 13:10 : Jer 15:2
D. Revelation 13:14 : Deut 13:1-5
E. Revelation 13:15 : Dan 3:5

You have yet, to show what you are thinking. All you have done is question us, trying to cause a disturbance.  So until you post your thoughts, I think I won't answer you.

Oh yes, the Beast=the antichrist.

Bible student,

If this king or kings that are mentioned in Daniel are nations (kingdoms) instead of individuals then why does it specify the word kingdom in those verses and separates it from the words king(s)?


Dan 7:24  And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.


These kings that are spoken of in Daniel 7 and 8 will have nations that they are rulers over. This is quite clear. But the king is the ruler over those nations .......

Dan 8:20  The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
Dan 8:21  And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.


Now explain to me how you understand that a king in these verses is a nation.

OK, I'll try not to argue, I'll try not to debate, and I'll try not to cause a disturbance.  I'll simply try to offer my thoughts and "show what I'm thinking".

The man of sin, or,  son of perdition as he's called in 11Thes.2 is the 10 horned "beast" of Rev.13, and of whom Babylon is serving/worshipping.

Translated, this I believe is the vision which John the Revelator saw in Rev.13.

1.  "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw "Babylon" rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns."  (Reference: Rev.17, which says that "Babylon" has the seven heads and ten horns.)  Thus, it is "Babylon" which John sees coming out of the sea in verse 1.  Question: Have you determined where modern day Babylon is?

3.  "And I saw one of Babylon's races of people; powerless and beaten down, as though they were wounded to death.  I saw their hurt healed, and I saw the world idolizing them."

4.  "And Babylon worshipped the devil which gave power unto the ten-horned beast; and they worshipped the ten-horned beast, saying, "Which other race of people is like them?!  Who is able to go against them?!"

5  "And the ten-horned beast spoke lies and blasphemies against Babylon, and power was given them to continue forty two months  (meaning 42 "years", perhaps?).

7  "And they were given power to wage war against Babylon, for they were given more power than all the other races within Babylon."

8  "And all on the earth idolized them, whose names are NOT written in the Lamb's book of life."

9  "If any man have an ear, let him understand this."

10  "He that leadeth into bondage to that race, shall go into bondage, and he that argues, must in turn be argued with.  Here is the patience and the faith of the saints."

11  "And I saw the false prophet rise up out of that race; the ten-horned beast."

12  "And he took advantage of his power which was for the benefit of his people; the ten-horned beast.

13  "And he preached to Babylon."

14  "And he deceived Babylon by those things he was able to accomplish for his people; the ten-horned beast; saying to Babylon and the world, that they should make an image of his people; the ten-horned beast that was wounded."

15  "And he gave life unto his race of people; the ten-horned beast, and his people spoke, and caused Babylon to serve/worship them."

16  "And the ten-horned beast caused ALL of Babylon; both the small and great, the rich and the poor, the free and the bond, to receive their image, and to serve them either physically or mentally."

17  "And no other race within Babyon was able to "buy and sell" like the ten-horned beast."

18  "Here is wisdom.  Let him that hath understanding, consider this number: for it is the number of the ten-horned beast, and their number is 666."

I'll respond later........that is, IF I haven't been booted out of here.  I've found that all those who aren't worshipping the end-time beast doesn't last too long on these christian message boards, as they are quickly booted off.

That won't happen as long as the rules of the forum are not broken:

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=8929.0

 ???   ???

Biblestudent, are you saying that the Christians on Christians Unite or any other group of Christians are worshiping the beast? It sounds like that's exactly what you are saying, so please expound on your statement and accusation.

Just for information, the beast hasn't been revealed yet. If you think that he has been revealed, who do you think he is and why? If you say JESUS CHRIST, that would be blasphemy, and you probably would get booted off the forum pretty quickly, RIGHTFULLY SO! In fact, I'm thinking this is exactly what you are about to state. If not, who do you think that we worship?

If you are here to preach islam or some other false religion that denies or mocks God the Father, God the Son (JESUS CHRIST), or God the Holy Spirit, you would need to read the forum rules and know that there is no pulpit here for false religions and false cults. The vast majority of Christian forums are the same in this regard or they wouldn't be Christian forums.

Another Link for the forum rules:

http://forums.christiansunite.com/rules.shtml

So, if you are here to preach about a religion that is contrary to Christianity, JESUS CHRIST, or the Holy Bible, you've wasted your time completely, and it won't be done here. A ton of folks have tried it, especially about islam, and you won't find a word about preaching or promoting false religions here.


If you are here to preach or promote something different, it won't be done here.

Moderator

AMEN brother.[color]

JESUS IS KING OF KINGS, LORD OF LORDS.

Pastor Roger,
I just don't believe that those scriptures have anything to do with a spacific ruler or king.
I simply believe that "kings" and "kingdoms" in these scriptures are in reference to the earthly kingdoms of God's people (Israel; the Israelites), verses the peoples and kingdoms of this world; ie, the Babylonians, the Medo Persians, the Grecians, the Romans.

Now...Daniel 7:23-26 is in direct reference to the present-day "European" kingdom, AND about present-day "Babylon" (the little horn) which came out of that kingdom.  (Dan.8:9,10)
It's all about the European peoples of Babylon, and the fact that they exalt and give their nation; Babylon over to another race, which, in the scriptures, is the ten-horned "beast".



 





  

I've already stated several times that the ten-horned beast is a "race" of man as opposed to an individual.  Therefore, I don't know how you've come to those conclusions about me, and about my views.

If you're asking me to reveal whom I believe that race to be, I will not.  For doing so has gotten me booted off more christian message boards than the secular ones.

Hello my friend.
You quoted Dan 9:26 in order to show the reference is about "the people of the prince" and therefore not about a man.
You left out the very next verse Dan 9:27 ....
 Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The first verse describes satan's forces doing his bidding - In 70 A.D. Titus and his Roman forces attacked the city and destroyed the Temple. The following verse makes it clear that it is satan "he" who comes as a peace maker, only to break the deal after three and a half years. Unless you would have us believe that "he" is another reference to "nation".

Dan 9:27 describes satan "he" making a peace pact for seven years with "many" however, in the middle of that seven year peace deal, 'he' breaks the deal and begins to cause "the overspreading of abominations"

I can only hope that you are honest enough to admit where you are wrong, because my brother, you are wrong on this one.
You stated in another post that you have been tossed out of many other Christian web sites....have you even stopped to consider why you are right, and the many, many others who have disagreed with you are wrong? That should be a red flag.
If I were being challenged as to one or more of my beliefs by so many other Christians, I would be forced to reconsider my beliefs, and possibly conceed that I may have been wrong.

John

I strongly suggest that you read the warning in Rev 22:18-19

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.


You posted your own personal bible, because God's is a lot different than yours. I guess that's what you have to do in order to even contemplate taking the Bible out of context as you have done. It is blasphemous my friend and you had better pray to God for forgiveness. Even if it is what you believe, we are warned to never mess around with His Words. That is a classic manoeuvre of a cult leader. It's what the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witness did, and many other cults. You must reword God's Word, in order to trick and deceive others into accepting your own beliefs. It is a sin.

Here are God's Words...

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 


 Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 


 Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 


 Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 


 Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months. 


 Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 


 Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 


 Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 


 Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 


 Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. 


 Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 


 Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 


 Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 


 Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 


 Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 


 Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 


 Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 


 Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six.



I will pray to our Holy Father that you are healed from the deception, which has blinded you to His Truth. That He will fill you with the True knowledge of His Word.

God Bless my friend.

John

Amen Bronzesnake.

Allow me to add my Amen BRNZ.

Biblestudent,

This would be worse and even more silly. SO, you are now saying that Christians worship a race of men who are the Antichrist???????? I don't know of any Christians who worship men at all, and certainly not a race of men either. Christians worship JESUS CHRIST, VERY GOD!

If you've already been banned from many Christian sites, I will assume that you have some unique and ODD-BALL beliefs that blaspheme God and/or make a mockery of the Holy Bible. Regardless, it would be moronic to say that Christians worship a race of men who are collectively the Antichrist. You would be talking about a cult that has no basis in reality or in the Holy Bible, and it would also be a strange, odd-ball cult. We also don't have any pulpits here for cults. I've also noticed that you never capitalize the word "Christian" which has a root word of "Christ". Usually that's because of a lack of respect. I don't capitalize devil or satan for that reason. Why is it that you don't capitalize "Christian"?

Moderator

ANOTHER AMEN BRONZESNAKE!

Brother John, it sure is nice to read some posts from you. I love the Holy Bible as the final authority for everything, and that's what you use.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 116:12-13 NASB  What shall I render to the LORD For all His benefits toward me?  I shall lift up the cup of salvation And call upon the name of the LORD.

Brother Tom!
You always have a way of plucking out the obvious, even though no one else had noticed it! :D
That summery is right on the nail head, it really does boil down to that, what a great summery. I guess all those years on the force have given you a special ability to pull the horrible commonsence truth out of a whirlwind of nonsense! :D

Nice job officer Tom!

John

Revelation uses the word "worship" in reference to the beast, whereas Daniel constantly uses the word, "exalt".  So does 11Thes.2.
Romans 1 uses both terms, "worship" and "serve".
I prefer to use the term "exalt", OR "serve".

To answer your question; yes,  the churches in general have played a significant role in exalting the beast, especially in the past 5 years or so. OBVIOUSLY they do it ignorantly because they don't know that it's the beast they're exalting!
The Scripture doesn't say, "all except the Churches", it says "ALL"; both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond."
 
ALL institutions of Babylon do their part to exalt the beast in these last days!, particularly the schools and universities.  And, all branches of the Government as well.

P.S.  I didn't say that race of man is called "Antichrist".    The name "Antichrist" is not given to the beast, or, man of sin in Scriptures.....Not in Daniel, not in Revelation, not in 11Thes.2., or anywhere else.
Therefore, if it an't there, then it an't the beast's name!

Just out of curiousity Biblestudent, you don't listen to Harold Camping and his ministry called Family Radio do you?

Never heard of him.
Look...., I don't base my beliefs and my interpretation of Bible prophecies upon others' interpretations and beliefs.  I base my beliefs and my interpretations upon the things I've witnessed in my 60 years of life, and according to how those things I've witnessed match the Scriptures.

And, I can say with all assurence and without reservation that, there is no world leader called "the Antichrist" who's coming to chop the heads off of those who don't worship him.  That's a "man-made" doctrine which commenced during the Reformation when the early Church Protestants first referred to the Pope as, "the Antichrist".  (And if you're wondering; no, I'm not Catholic, I'm Protestant.)

Revelation and Daniel, (the two main books we should look to in order to know what occurs during the end) is all about a mighty Christian nation which arises out of the European Impire.  It's about how, in the latter years the host turns that nation away from Christ and Christian principals, and commences to exalt (via their laws and otherwise) a race of man above themselves and above God.  This is that which 11Thes. says will occur during the years leading up to Christ's return.

That European people, and particularly the mighty nation spoken of in Rev. and Daniel, is the people of whom Paul refers in Romans 1 when he wrote, "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an "image" made like to corruptible man.......and worshipped and served the creature (the beast) MORE than the Creator."
That image; that corruptible man (race) of whom Paul is speaking in Romans 1, is the very same race of man known as "the beast"  in Revelation 13.

 

Now, finally, the truth comes out. First of all I want to say that I agree with you part way in a small sense. If anyone upholds a nation higher than God then they are in serious trouble. As for myself and I believe that I am speaking for the majority of the people here on this forum when I say that we are thankful to GOD for being in a nation where, so far, we are able to openly worship Him without being thrown in jail or having our heads cut off.

That said I will also say that you are looking in the wrong direction. The beast is in fact an individual, an antichrist, that will have more than one nation, a whole bunch of antichrists, following him. The word antichrist was used long before the reformation as we can plainly see in the Bible. (1 John 2 :18, 22; 4 :3; 2 John 1 : 7)   It was used in the extant of anyone that comes up against Jesus Christ. The beast of Rev does just that, goes against Jesus Christ,  and will be the primary one to get others to do the same. Therefore he gets his discriptive name of antichrist.

Your teachings are one of the many false teachings of a false prophetess, E G White, as well as a number of other cults such as Islam. With such false teachings it is easy to see why you have been kicked out of so many Christian forums.

There is a greater force in the world than just people and nations. The greatest deceiver, satan himself, the greatest antichrist of all, will have a major portion in this battle soon to come.

When a person centers their eyes on people and nations, the physical aspects of the world, they overlook this. There are things happening today in this world that many people don't see even though it is right there in front of them. If you insist on looking at physical nations then look to the things that are happening today and ask who it is that is primarily against Jesus Christ and His teachings. Go to Ezekial 38 and 39, compare this to Daniel and Revelations. Before doing this ask the Lord to open your eyes, your understanding, to give you the wisdom to see what His word is telling you.


 

I see that you STILL do not understand what I'm saying.

Both Daniel and Revelation talks about a spacific "place" where the beast is exalted/worshipped in the latter years.

Paul refers to that place as "the temple of God" in 11Thes.2
Jesus refers to it as "the holy place" in Matt.24:15.

Daniel (the prophet of whom Jesus refers us) sees visions of that place from the time of its establishment, (represented by "the little horn" in his vision) to the time that it waxes great, into Babylon.  Notice:

Dan.8:9  "And out of one of them (out of one of the kingdoms; Impires) came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the "pleasant land".

10  "And it (the little horn) waxed great, even to the host of heaven; (the European Protestants)) and it cast down some of the host and of the stars (of the Christians amongst the host) to the ground, and stamped upon them."

11  "Yea, he (the little horn) magnified himself even to "the prince of the host" (to the ten-horned beast, the race which the host is worshipping/serving in the last days).......

The vision which John saw of that "place" was that of mighty Babylon after it had waxed great.  In other words, the way it is today.
It's the "host" of Babylon (the EUROPEAN race)  which is worshipping/serving that race of man known as "the beast" in Rev.13.

And yes, I agree! The African nations mentioned in Ezekiel 38 plays a major role in end-time prophecies!!  Daniel, in 11:43 mentions them when he says, "the Etheopians" and "the Libyans" shall be at his (the little horn's) steps." 

Biblestudent,

You change your tune when you are called about specifics that you YOURSELF have said, and you start babbling about something else. So, I would say that you're either a beginner troll or a cult member who is so confused that you don't know which end is up, OR BOTH. Regardless, we don't have a pulpit here for false teaching. So, take the hint.

Moderator

Or how about a returning troll that was not very good at being a troll ..... FayeC.

How about a false teaching of a bad troll........

Brothers and Sisters,

There is no doubt at all that Biblestudent is the return of a person who was banned, FayeC. I am absolutely amazed that someone would go to such trouble to advance the skinhead, neo-nazi theory that black people are the Antichrist. Now, you know why FayeC was banned, and the same reason is why Biblestudent is banned.

It's very sad when some folks let an almost insane racial hatred be the ruler over their lives. Now, you also know why Biblestudent or whatever name that they used has been banned from so many Christian Forums, including this one TWICE.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 116:12-13 NASB  What shall I render to the LORD For all His benefits toward me?  I shall lift up the cup of salvation And call upon the name of the LORD.

Sorry, thats just too funny...ROFL


(http://www.sirinet.net/~blkidps/a4.gif)

Yes that was funny yet sad at the same time.

 ;D  Brother, I was just thinking that some of the cult stuff going around these days is almost good enough to be stand-up comedy. Maybe we should start saving the better ones, sell them, and buy ADMIN a giant server faster than greased lightning. I know, you want the speed of greased lightning.


 ;D  Nobody knows.

Hmmm..???..I must be slow today, because you lost me there brother...lol   OK going in for the 3rd cup of coffee to see if I can finally jump start my brain this morning.   (http://www.rr-bb.com/images/smilies/wacko.gif)

Tom....no need for a bigger server, or saving the better ones, etc......just set up a live feed for TBN under the HUMOR category.

Hello Biblestudent,

I agree the seven heads of Daniel chapter 7 are talking about race, ethnic or nationality, but under kings(Rev. 17:10). Note the difference between Revelation 13:1 and 13:11, the beast comes out of the Sea and the eighth comes out of the Earth.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.


The Lord is not an author of confusion.

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
Revelation 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.


Antiochus Epiphanes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochus_Epiphanes). Do you know how in Antiochus time the Jewish temple was dedicated to the Olympian Zeus? Antiochus Epiphanes was an Antichrist of the Old Testament. The Maccabees are a testament to the time period before the New Testament. Reading up on Antiochus Epiphanes will draw a big picture of what the Antichrist will be like. There is nothing new under the Sun.


FYI: Ethiopia of old was in Saudi Arabia.

Evangelist,

Brother Hank, I really don't have much experience with TBN. I just know that it was too wild for me the last several times I tried to watch it. I also watched some programs mentioned by others on the forum. Let's just say that I would rather do Bible study in peace and quiet.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 103:11 NASB  For as high as the heavens are above the earth, So great is His lovingkindness toward those who fear Him.

at_the_Cross,

I hear what you're saying. The Rev.13:2 verse is a direct relation to the kings and kingdoms Message from Daniel 7. It gives the 'type' of that first beast in verse 1 as a world type system over many countries and peoples, just like the old empires of Persia, Greece, which is explained further into Daniel 8.

But there are two 'beasts' mentioned in Rev.13. The first is a nation enveloping system, and the other, the "another beast" starting at verse 11, is a particular king or world leader, the Antichrist. Revelation 17, which you referred to, gives the explanation of those Rev.13 symbols...

Rev 17:7-16
7   And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
8   The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Because there two 'beasts' mentioned back in Rev.13, one must differentiate between the two within this. The "another beast" who appears like a lamb, but spake as a dragon, is the "another beast" and is an entity. And that entity ascends out of the bottomless pit. Who then is that? None other than Satan. Who is already been judged and sentenced to perish? None other than Satan. He is the beast that was, because the ten horned beast system of Rev.12:3-4 that only had "seven crowns" instead of ten, was his system of old when he first rebelled against God, and drew one third of the angels (stars) into rebellion with him. He yet is, because he won't be destroyed until the "lake of fire" event after Christ's future thousand years reign on earth.

9   And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10   And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

The seven heads relate to verse 10 about seven kings. That's speaking against about a world system, the first beast of Rev.13:1-2, like old Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, etc. Because the latter day king is to only have power for a short space, that refers to the latter day Antichrist's reign, just prior to Christ's second coming. That's the 7th.

11   And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

After the thousand years of Rev.20, Satan is to be released again to go tempt the nations. That's the eighth fulfillment, and then goes into the lake of fire. That timing is related to Isaiah 24:21-23.

12   And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13   These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14   These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

This means the ten kings, or ten horns, receive power with the "another beast" when he comes. The "one hour" is that "short space", or tribulation timing.

15   And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

The waters, or sea of Rev.13:1 means peoples and nations, i.e., the whole world. It's about a one world system over the whole earth.

16   And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
(KJV)

The "whore" is a symbol for false religion under the Antichrist.

Rev 18:7
7   How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, "I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow."
(KJV)

She claims not to be a widow, because she is already married. But she will marry the wrong one, even the Antichrist who will be allowed to put himself in the place of God for a short time. That is the great falling away Paul mentioned in 2 Thess.2, as many will not wait for Christ's true time of return later.

dp

2T Greased Lighting is a super-strength degreaser product.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard( Daniel 7:6 ), and his feet were as the feet of a bear( Daniel 7:5 ), and his mouth as the mouth of a lion( Daniel 7:4 ): and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

The little horn comes up among the ten horns and plucked up three of the first horns by the roots( Daniel 7:8 ), subdues three kings( Daniel 7:24 ). I find it hard to believe the little horn is the seventh king when the fourth beast exist before the little horn coming on the scene. Revelation 13:1-2 states a mixture of the other three beast plus the fourth beast for a total of seven heads.

Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Rev. 12:3 shows three kings missing due to the little horn?

Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Is that like the League of Nations which disappeared, only to once again rise as the UN?

I would go with the EU, which is claiming to be the new roman empire rebuilt.

re: Rev. 12:3 
There will in my opinion be a small war, which will remove the 3 kings missing.

at_the_Cross,

If you'll look closely at all the Daniel examples of the ten horned beast, even back to Daniel 2:39-44, we find it is a symbol for the very last world kingdom upon earth before God's Kingdom is setup. Even in Daniel 7:24-27 we find the ten horn kingdom being destroyed at last and given to the saints of The Most High. That timing is linked with Christ's second coming and has not happened yet (Rev.11:15). That is why some who treat that fourth kingdom as old pagan Rome believe it must be revived again for the end of days (our time).

However we relate that fourth kingdom to old Rome or another kingdom, the fourth kingdom of ten horns is a symbol that continues all the way to the end, mainly because of God's Kingdom being established at its destruction. So whatever world kingdom is formed up on earth prior to Christ's return, we know that symbol of the last false kingdom must be included in it. In that sense, the ten horns become a type of 'blueprint'.

Note the first five verses of Rev.12. The woman clothed in the sun relates to God's Israel, because those symbols are hard linked to the dream Joseph had about his mother, father, and eleven brethren per Genesis 37. It is then about the first establishing of the "Seed" of the woman through whom Christ would be born through, with Satan trying to stop it, even back to the time in the Garden with Eve. Notice those ten horns, seven heads, and seven crown symbols are tied with Satan's first rebellion with his angels (stars). We know per Rev.20:2 and 12:9 the name "dragon" is another one of Satan's many titles. So that ten horn example is also... tied to his rebellion of old, when he drew one third of the angels into rebellion with him against God (per Rev.12:3-4). That particular ten horn example already took place when Satan first rebelled, and we are to notice that as a 'blueprint' for the future ten horn example that follows in Rev.13:1 which is to have "ten crowns". If that Rev.12:3 ten horn example had not been given along with that event of the drawing of a third part of the stars (angels), then it would fit the little horn subduing three kings as you say.

God's Word jumps to past and future timelines very quickly in some Scripture, and those Rev.12:1-5 verses are one of them. Note then, at Rev.12:6, the timing changes to the future, as the 1260 days timing given is in relation to the beast system of Rev.13 forward (Rev.13:5 as 42 months). Rev.12:17 is also a marker for future timing of that 1260 days of great tribulation upon the woman. So there's quite a bit of timeline jumping in that Revelation 12 Chapter.


Rev.17:11   And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.


A birdseye view in God's Word is needed for some of this. Recall per Rev.13 mentions two different 'beasts', the first being a world kingdom or system over the whole earth, and the second beast, the "another beast" starting at Rev.13:11 being the 'dragon' himself. So that 'beast' name is a metaphor for Satan ultimately wanting to be The KING, and claiming dominion over the whole earth (note how he tempted our Lord with this in Luke 4:5-7). In OT times, with the past pagan kingdoms like old Babylon, Assyria, Egypt, Tyre, etc., all of them are symbolic blueprints of attempts at a false one-world kingdom over all the earth. God uses the word Babylon again in Revelation for the last one, because it means 'confusion' and relates to the attempted early world takeover at the tower of Babel (and even back to Satan's original rebellion with certain Hebrew word passages). In Isaiah 14, God uses the king of Assyria and Lucifer as a symbol link for that 'beast' working. Again that type of symbolic link is drawn between Satan and the king of Tyrus, the king of Assyria, and Pharaoh in Ezekiel 28 through 31. That means God wants us to note this blueprint He gave, and understand how all those past 'beast' kingdoms relate to the final one up to His return, and even to the one Satan will tempt the nations with after Christ's future thousand years reign (Rev.20:7-9).

Per Rev.17:11, this is how Satan can be...

"the beast that was" - his rebellion of old, a system that had "seven crowns" which he ruled over and drew one third of the stars with.

"and is not" - he has not ruled de facto 'in person' on earth since that first time he rebelled of old when God ended it and cast him down. The old pagan beast system flesh kings on earth in OT times ruled in his stead for him.

"even he is the eighth" - the kingdom he will tempt the nations with after Christ's thousand years reign (Rev.20:7-9). This is still way... future to us.

"and is of the seven" - he was behind all those past world kingdoms of history, the flesh kings only serving as 'types' of his rebellion on earth (see analogies of Ezekiel 28 and 31).

"and goeth into perdition" - one of his titles is "Apollyon" (Rev.9:11) which means 'the destroyer', and is from the Greek 'apollumi' which also gives 'apoleia', which means 'perdition'. He has already been judged and sentenced to perish in the "lake of fire", God causing a fire within himself to consume him (Ezek.28:18).

Within all this, it is possible to see the 'beast' kingdom working in 'blueprint' form also within that old League of Nations bent, and with many other one-world kingdom type ideas (like Communism, Socialism, Globalism, one-world relgion, etc.). Some have mentioned that the Trilateralists already have a plan to divide the earth up into ten specific regions of power, and the Americas even into a ten system divided region. We'll have to wait and see as more of God's prophecies come forth to be sure of the small details though. I personally believe that the Antichrist will be Satan de facto in person on earth, ruling over the ten kings of Rev.13. I get the sense from Scripture that God is reserving that final false king role of the latters days for Satan himself, and is linked to his very first attempt at ruling in God's stead. There are many Scripture pointers to that, if you understood what I covered within this. Here's one of them...

Rev 17:8
8   The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
(KJV)


Blessings to you in Christ Jesus,
dp

Being Constantinople(Istanbul, Turkey)  became the new Roman Empire in 359 A.D. and the Ottoman Empire capture Constantinople in 1453 A.D. they have taken on the eastern leg and iron and clay. The EU only has one leg to stand on IMHO.

Possibility small war in plural.


Although we don't see eye to eye on a few things, we're on the same page here.



Whats left after the little horn ...three crowns short of ten kings, it seemed feasible that Daniel 7:7 becomes a great red dragon that appears in heaven in Rev. 12:3.

Quote by you[dp]: After the thousand years of Rev.20, Satan is to be released again to go tempt the nations. That's the eighth fulfillment, and then goes into the lake of fire. That timing is related to Isaiah 24:21-23.

A beast that is empowered by seven demonic creatures(Mark 5:9-13; Luke 8:30-31) and aligned with ten kings(due to Rev. 13:2 the dragon gave his power to it/him). You think it's of millennial(which it could be). I've considered what you said in your previous post and others, but I haven't had the time to study it in your view. What I've gathered from talking to you is something like...

Was - before Christ returns,
Is not - during Christ reign on earth,
Even he is the eighth - after 1,000 years.



Rev. 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

A metaphor?... John could've said "he speaks as himself" instead. I know it's a symbol of the religious power and secular authorities which I thought was the Antichrist but is more like the false prophet.

Blessings to you too in Christ Jesus

On 3 October 2005, membership negotiations were symbolically opened with Turkey, which has been an associate member of the EU since 1963 and an official candidate since 1999. The historic decision on 17 December 2004 by the European Council was confirmed by the European heads of state and government on 17 June. On 29 June, the Commission presented its negotiating framework to Ankara, and after a full day of intense negotiations the EU-25's foreign ministers finalised the document on 3 October. Within hours, Turkey accepted the terms. Now from todays news...............

Turkey is an EU Candidate, but Negotiations are Open Ended

By Anadolu News Agency (aa), Berlin
Published: Sunday, March 19, 2006

 Australian Prime Minister Wolfang Schussel said Turkey, which has been promised honest and professional membership negotiations, is an important European Union candidate country.

In his speech to German “Der Spiegel” magazine, upon a question on Turkey’s European Union membership, Schussel said the following:

“Turkey is a candidate country, to which we promised honest and professional membership negotiations, yet these negotiations are open ended and there are many things that still need to be accomplished. As a result, like all candidate countries, Turkey’s membership capacity and European Union’s new member accepting capacity will be considered. Since the citizens will decide about this topic, the result obtained will be tried in a realist way.”
Turkey is an EU Candidate, but Negotiations are Open Ended (http://www.zaman.com/?bl=hotnews&alt=&trh=20060319&hn=31078)

Theres is the missing leg, you were referring to brother. Though theres is still work, we don't know about.

Did you know the EU flag has 12 stars?

Yes I did know the flag has 12 stars......... ;D

They stand for.....

12 signs of the zodiac;
12 hours on a clock;
12 months in a year;
12 apostles;
12 tables of Roman Law;
12 starry crowns of the Horsemen of the Apocalypse.

The twelve yellow stars on a blue field were officially adopted as the symbol of the European Community on 26 May 1986. Adoption of a flag and an anthem was suggested during the European council held in Milan on 28 and 29 June 1985. In the beginning of 1986, the European Commission believed that adoption date of the flag and the anthem should be 9 May, the anniversary of Robert Schuman's declaration of 9 May 1950, which is considered as the founding act of the European Union.

Although, the UEO / WEU flag had at first 9 stars, and received a tenth star on 26 October 1993 with the entrance of Greece.

Members of the Western European Union;
Belgium
France
Germany
Greece
Italy
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Portugal
Spain
United Kingdom

The Western European Union, is also the European Military Force, of the European Union.

at_the_Cross, brethren and sisters,

Well, line upon line must be the basis of our study in God's Word. Our study may lead to many other Scriptures, but we are to first keep a line upon line flow within the Chapter we're studying first. Hopefully this will make it more clear what I'm talking about. at_the_Cross, I do understand what you mean on this in relation to Daniel 7 and 8 about the little horn subdueing three kings, and of casting stars down in Daniel 8:9-10. The only problem with that is the timing is different in most of these first five Rev.12 verses.

Rev 12:1
1   And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
(KJV)

The definition of that first sign (wonder)...

Gen 37:9-10
9   And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, "Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me."
10   And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, "What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?"
(KJV)

Joseph dreamed about "eleven stars" because he himself represented the 12th star in that. Joseph's father (Jacob) and mother understood the "sun" and "moon" symbols meant them per verse 10 above. And God changed Jacob's name to 'Israel'. So this Rev.12:1 verse is clearly about the Seed of the Woman first mentioned in Gen.3:15, i.e. the start of the family lineage our Lord Jesus would be born through. So there is no way these symbols represent anything else, like the EU or what not. That won't fit this example from our Lord Jesus. (The 12 stars of the EU will fit Satan's attempt at building his own version of God's Israel though. I'll easily agree with that working).

Rev 12:2
2   And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
(KJV)

She who? The woman of the previous verse, that's who; and who was that? Israel, which is what the 'sun', the 'moon', and 12 stars represent. How far back does the bloodline lineage Christ came through travel? All the way back to Adam and Eve (Luke 3). This child represents the beginning of Christ's lineage in Genesis. We are back to Genesis with Cain and Abel at this above verse.

Rev 12:3
3   And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
(KJV)

Another sign in heaven is given. This time it's that old serpent, the devil, and Satan. That's who John intends here with this "great red dragon" symbol. Why? Because John said so later on in this same Rev.12 Chapter...

Rev 12:9
9   And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(KJV)

That great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns are symbols of a kingdom, a dominion. It is not the same one John speaks of later in Rev.13:1, but it is like it. Why? Because Rev.12:4 goes with Rev.12:3 and cannot be separated because of the flow of the subject. So what happened with that seven crowned, seven head, ten horned system in relation to verse 4...

Rev 12:4
4   And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
(KJV)

Who's tail? The tail of the "great red dragon" John just mentioned back in the 3rd verse. Who is that dragon per John? Satan, that old serpent himself; his tail drew one third of the "stars of heaven". Did that say he drew one third of the 12 stars on the woman's crown? No. These "stars of heaven" are a different sign. They represent heavenly powers, angels even. Rev.1:20 tells us the 7 stars are the 'angels' of the seven Churches. Thus 'stars' can represent angels also, yet these "stars of heaven" represent Satan's angels, for that is also part of the subject here which John is going to pick up starting at Rev.12:7. So when did Satan draw a third part of the 'stars of heaven', meaning his angels?

Job 1:6-7
6   Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7   And the LORD said unto Satan, "Whence comest thou?" Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, "From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."
(KJV)

If you recall what happened in Genesis 6, the "sons of God" (angels) who left their own habitation and took wives of the daughters of men, and the result was a hybrid giant offspring on the earth. Jude 1 tells us they went after strange flesh, and kept not their first estate. Here in Job 1 Satan appears before God among them. Satan's station was upon the earth per that verse. So the question is, when was Satan first cast down to the earth back then, and was he cast down then with the angels he drew with his tail into rebellion with him? When did that rebellion first happen? Put it this way, Ezekiel 28:12-18 are verses definitely speaking about Satan. That's who the "anointed cherub that covereth" mentioned there is. He originally served God upon His Holy Mountain we are told, and he was originally perfect in his ways, before he fell into iniquity. God even originally made him the full pattern of beauty. When was that time when Satan fell into iniquity against God, when he even said against God, "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High"? (Isa.14:14).

That timing when Satan first fell is also the timing that seven headed, ten horned, and seven crown system occurred in. We are not told specifically in God's Word when that was, because we are not told how far back in time it was when Satan originally rebelled against God. But we know it happened, and it was a very long time ago, because Satan as "that old serpent" was already prepared to attack the Seed of the Woman back in Genesis 3. The foudation of God's Plan of Salvation had to have already been established in Heaven by that time. Genesis 3:15 is even the first hint of The Savior coming to die on the cross.

The Rev.12:4 example of the system with ten horns, seven heads, but only seven crowns, is a symbol for Satan's kingdom he tried to establish back in the days of old, when he drew a third of the angels into rebellion with him against God. That's why it is given along with the subject of Satan getting ready to attack the Seed of the Woman that refers us back to Genesis 3-4. It goes with that early timing and subject of Satan's first attacking the Seed of the Woman. It's in prep for understanding the remaining Rev.12:6 through Rev.12:17 verses about an end time attacking, and ultimately the new system with ten crowns this time starting in Rev.13.

Now the latter part of Rev.12:4, who is that 'woman' again? It's Israel. What child was that dragon (Satan) waiting to devour as soon as she gave birth? Well, what happened to righteous Abel? His brother Cain murdered him, as Satan tried many times in OT history to break up the family our Lord Jesus would be born through, even down to the time of attacking the Baby Jesus through king Herod. This is the emnity between Satan and the Seed of the woman per Gen.3:15. That "child" thus is a symbol for the family lineage of Christ, even our Lord Jesus Himself we find out in the next verse.
 
Rev 12:5
5   And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to His throne.
(KJV)

Who is this "she" again? The "woman" back at the very start of this, i.e. Israel, the seedline of Christ. This "man child" who is to rule all nations with a "rod of iron" is Who? That is our Lord Jesus. When will He do that de facto in Person? In the future, the "thousand years" timing of Rev.20. Big jump forward in time with this 5th verse.
 
Rev 12:6
6   And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
(KJV)

Here's a reference to the tribulation timing, i.e. 1260 days, or 42 months, or three and one half years. Now the timeline is jumping way forward, to the end of days just prior to Christ's return. Again, this 'woman' represents God's Israel (including His spiritual Israel through Christ also, i.e. the Church. See Rev.12:17 about those who have the Testimony of Jesus Christ).


dp

Sorry to take up so much space in my last post everyone, I have a habit of line upon line study, and that's how I like to cover God's Word when speaking about It with others also.

at_the_Cross,

In reference to Satan with that word 'beast':  it is also a title applied to him, not only his beast system he is over. We learn that with the clause "another beast" in Rev.13:11 forward when specifically talking about his title of the "dragon".

He is the beast that was, because the ten horned beast system of Rev.12:3-4 that only had "seven crowns" instead of ten, was his system of old when he first rebelled against God, and drew one third of the angels (stars) into rebellion with him.

I realize some might be having a problem understanding about Satan's rebellion of old, and how far back it was, and what type of rebellion it was. Recall in Genesis 2 and most of Genesis 3 that God's Garden of Eden was then upon this earth. Adam and Eve dwelt in It, disobeyed God there and were cast out from It. After the fall of Adam, God removed His Abode off this earth (latter verses of Gen.3). But He will return It back to this earth, which is what that great River subject is about in Revelation 22 and Ezekiel 47 (note especially Gen.2:10; that's the same River flowing out of Eden of Rev.22! Ezekiel 47 is also a must read on that). God gave us a few hints like that which also relate to a time in Eden when even Satan was perfect in his ways before he rebelled (Ezekiel 28:12-18; Ezek.31). Our LORD wants us to understand that part too, because He has promised to return to this earth and live in the midst of us, literally (Rev.22; last verse of Ezek.48).

He (Satan) yet is, because he won't be destroyed until the "lake of fire" event after Christ's future thousand years reign on earth.

Even he is the eighth, because Satan will be allowed just one more try to tempt the nations, which is... after... the "thousand years" reign of our Lord Jesus on earth is over (per Rev.20 when he is released out of the 'pit'). That's the very last time for the 'beast' type system working by Satan. After that, it's off to the "lake of fire" with him. This is why Gog and Magog are mentioned there again in Rev.20 after Christ's thousand years reign. It's because those nation type labels are symbols for the 'beast' working over nations. The Ezekiel 38-39 Gog and Magog example is for our time though, just prior to Christ's second coming to start His thousand years reign on earth with His elect (known in Scripture as the future "day of the LORD").

The label of "beast" in Revelation relates to a dangerous animal, like a rabid venomous animal...

2 Pet 2:12
12   But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
(KJV)

Jude 1:10-11
10   But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11   Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
(KJV)

It is a marker for corruption on such a level that they will have to be destroyed, like a wild crazy animal that cannot be healed. Such are the "workers of iniquity" and fallen angels who purposefully worship Lucifer and work against God and His Christ.

Blessings to you in Christ Jesus,
Dave

I was only saying Antiochus Epiphanes was "a" anti-God of the Old Testament. The only relationship between Daniel 7 and 8 that I would refer to is Alexander the Great's and his four Generals and the Medes and Perisa.


Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

Luke 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.


As DW was showing me that Turkey was a part of the EU now. Alot of people say the ten is the EU. But, the question would be when the 10 do their part. I only noticed the EU flag when I looked the EU up on Wikipedia the other night. I apologize if you thought I was referring to Revelation 12:1 and the EU flag being the answer.

If 3 horns are pulled out, then there are only 7 horns left; but the eleventh(little) horn now becomes the 8th.