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Theology => Apologetics => Topic started by: M on September 08, 2005, 10:43:03 AM



Title: About Slavery
Post by: M on September 08, 2005, 10:43:03 AM
What answer can be given when the Bible is attacked?  Some people say that the Bible can be used to justify slavery and the slave trade.  

Many people blame European (or American) colonialism on all the problems of the world today.   Particularly that Christian missionaries destroyed cultures and interferred with political and social structures in some societies.   What should a Christian's response be to these statements?  



Title: Re:About Slavery
Post by: Shammu on September 08, 2005, 11:28:17 AM
What answer can be given when the Bible is attacked?  Some people say that the Bible can be used to justify slavery and the slave trade.  
Exodus 21:2-6 “When you buy a Hebrew slave, six years shall he serve; and in the seventh shall he go out free, for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master has given him a wife, and she has borne him sons or daughters, the wife and the children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself. And if the slave shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: then his master shall bring him unto God, and he shall bring him to the door or unto the door-post, and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever.”

Ephesians 6:5-6 “Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ, not by the way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart.”

1 Corinthians 7:21 Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather.

Part of the problem is that we have false ideas about what slavery was really like. The life of a slave was not easy, but we get an exaggerated idea of the hardships of slavery from watching movies or reading historical material that is written on a popular level. Here the purpose is usually to dramatize the plight of slaves or to make some point about the evils of slavery in general, but the historical reality was less dramatic. In most cases the life of a slave was not much different from the life of any lower-class worker. Those who have been in the military have experienced something like it — being legally bound to an employer and to a job that one cannot simply "quit" at will, not free to leave without permission, subject to discipline if one disobeys or is grossly negligent — all of this is familiar enough to those of us who have served in the military. And yet we know that the daily life of a good soldier is not especially hard. This is what it was like to be a slave.

Another problem is, when thinking about slavery we tend to have in mind the recent slavery of the black race in America, and so the whole subject of slavery gets mixed up with the issue of racism. But in ancient times, slavery was not associated with any particular race. By condoning slavery the Bible does not approve of racism.

"Everybody is equal in God's eyes" is the premise, taken utterly for granted, and in a rather sweeping way that includes not only spiritual matters but also matters of church government. But the authors of the Bible knew nothing of such modern egalitarian notions. Morality in the Bible is set forth as a personal matter, not a political matter, and it is certainly not based upon any idea that all people are of equal worth in God's eyes. Salvation in the Bible is no "equal opportunity" proposition either. As for the political and social order, the Bible does not direct us to anything beyond the hierarchical principles of order which pertained to the ancient world of kings and patriarchs, promising only that in due time a righteous Kingdom will come. This must be understood by anyone who wants to get a clear idea of what the Bible is all about. A sensible and honest reading of the Bible cannot be possible for those who would read into it the politicized egalitarian morality of our age. Even the most cherished idea of modern civil philosophy — that "all men are created equal," and "endowed with certain inalienable rights," as the American Declaration of Independance puts it — must be left behind by the student who would fully enter into the world of the Bible.

This is denied by many liberal scholars (example, John Dominic Crossan, Gerd Theissen, and Elisabeth Schüssler Fiorenza), who, trying to put a 'biblical' coloring on their politicized version of Christianity, have argued that the New Testament contains some evidence that Jesus of Nazareth was a social revolutionary who founded a short-lived 'egalitarian' community based upon a 'discipleship of equals.' These scholars maintain that by the end of the first century the egalitarian program of Jesus was abandoned by his followers, who suppressed the egalitarianism of the early Church when they wrote or edited the New Testament documents.


Title: Re:About Slavery
Post by: Bronzesnake on September 08, 2005, 11:50:20 AM
What answer can be given when the Bible is attacked?  Some people say that the Bible can be used to justify slavery and the slave trade.  

As far as slavery goes - most people relate slavery to the American style of forced labour. Slavery in Jesus' time was not like that at all.

A person could pay off a debt by offering to be a slave to his debtor for an agreed on time. A man could offer to be a slave for a set number of years in exchange for the man's daughter in marriage. Some people actually chose to be slaves in well off homes in return for food, clothing and lodging. It wasn't forced, it was of people's free will. The living conditions were usually very good. Jesus demanded that people treat their slaves with dignity and respect. He wasn't referring to the slave trade which took place in Africa, and America where slaves were no better than livestock.

Quote
Many people blame European (or American) colonialism on all the problems of the world today.   Particularly that Christian missionaries destroyed cultures and interferred with political and social structures in some societies.   What should a Christian's response be to these statements?  


It is true that some severe damage was done in the name of God. The way that American Indians were treated is shamefull, and there were some sadistic "people of God" who will have to answer to God Almighty one day.
We can't escape the fact that we are all humans. There is the perception that a "person of God" is always a genuine, kind, loving, faithfull believer - that's simply not true. Men will use any disquise to inflict harm on others. Pedophiles get jobs that get them close to children. - Sport coaches, teachers, priests, etc. These people will meet God face to face, and that is a fact.

As Christians, we are comanded by Jesus to spread his word.
How many people would be doomed to Hell if they had not been introduced to Jesus? I think we tend to bring up the evil that fake Christians perpetrate on people, and we neglect the overwhelming good that True Christians have done, and continue to do around the world.

I am half Cherokee Indian. I have a very close friend who is Ojibway, and he keeps trying to get me into the "Indian culture" where our dead ancestors speak to us, and give us visions. God tells me that once we die, we don't come back as spirits or ghosts in order to communicate with our living friends and loved ones. So if someone had not have told me the Truth of Jesus, I would be doomed to Hell, because I would no doubt, be involved in those evil cultural traditions.

God tears down the traditions and cultures of men, and He will replace them with His Truth. The reality of the matter is that Jesus will return one day, and soon. When He does, every knee will bend, and we will all lay our eyes upon the most awsome, Almighty God of the Universe.
On that day there won't be a single soul complaining about how their cultures or traditions were ruined.

Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;  

Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.  

These two verses are so powerfull. They describe the scene when Jesus appears and is about to commence His judgment upon all the earth.

Every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord!

Notice that not one single soul is complaining about how their traditions and cultures were destroyed? This is because God has revealed every secret. God has exposed every lie.
No one dares to challenge His judgment, they all confess and accept their judgment. This is not like any other court on earth, where two sides try to convince a judge and jury of the guilt or innosence of the accused. This is uncontested, God knows our deepest darkest secrets. There is nothing we can hide from Him, and in the end, at His jedgment seat, everyone is fully aware that He is God, and He knows the Truth!

I hope this helps my friend. Most people who feel as though "Christians" ruined their lives don't want to hear these facts. I know, because my friend did not want anything to do with it for the longest time.
I kept at him, and today he is a new Christian! He struggles, but that's understandable.

John


Title: Re:About Slavery
Post by: Soldier4Christ on September 08, 2005, 01:04:15 PM
Actually the word slave is only used in the KJV twice. Once in Jer 2:14 and then in the plural form in Rev 18:13. The other times they were considered servants or bondmen. Although modern day dictionaries classify all those as the same there was a big difference in Biblical times.

A bondman or servant was indebted to a person. An example of this in present day times is when we purchase a car. We are a bondman to a loan company until that car is paid off. Sometimes it was in exchange for food, housing, protection given by a king and his army. Sometimes it was a debt that a persons parents owed to someone. It was an agreement made by the individuals.

There were abuses of this system just as was the slave labor in early America. Egypt abused this system with the early Israelites and God intervened through Moses and the plagues, etc. to put an end to it.

As the others have mentioned and given verses to support, there were rules put forth to make it fair and equitable to all concerned.





Title: Re:About Slavery
Post by: curious on September 10, 2005, 07:18:14 AM
       I don't believe in slavery,but I don't see anywhere in the Bible talking AGAINST slavery,of course I am probably thinking of the abuse of slavery.
       Lots of the places where it says servant,it is slave.Not the kind of slave we think of most of time,but the kind who wanted to(volountarily )to stay with the master.Then the got a mark,showing that they chose to be slaves,in this case to God,but we are either slaves to God or to Satan.

                    Yours in Yeshua,
                    curious


Title: Re:About Slavery
Post by: Florida_Catholic on September 11, 2005, 01:21:00 PM
The world is evolving and slavery and servitude has changed and been thought of differently by each time, culture, and location.  The overarching philosophy of Christ was to love your neighbor.  To me that is as clear a declaration against slavery as we need.  People who wish to pull passages of the Bible outside of this larger context are missing the point.


Title: Re:About Slavery
Post by: curious on September 24, 2005, 02:39:31 AM
        FC:

    I think you are thinking of the abuse of slavery. The abuse of slavery was horrible and against the Bible,it is not the way the Bible says to have slavery.A lot CHOSE to be slaves,or continue on as slaves.They were treated as family alot of the time.

                   Yours in Yeshua,
                   curious


Title: Re:About Slavery
Post by: Allinall on September 28, 2005, 12:05:29 PM
Well, I'm a slave.  A doulos of Jesus.  I find it interesting that this recognition is personal.  In most references, the term is used by the individual in reference to themselves, i.e. "Paul, a doulos of Jesus Christ" and so on.  Jesus calls us "friends" not "slaves", and yet the mindset, yes even the example is set before us:

Quote
Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

Philippians 2:5-7

Like it or not, we are the "servants" or the "slaves" of who we submit our members as "servants" or "slaves" too.  So, I'm a slave.   :)


Title: Re:About Slavery
Post by: Shammu on September 29, 2005, 12:52:30 PM
Well, I'm a slave.  A doulos of Jesus.  I find it interesting that this recognition is personal.  In most references, the term is used by the individual in reference to themselves, i.e. "Paul, a doulos of Jesus Christ" and so on.  Jesus calls us "friends" not "slaves", and yet the mindset, yes even the example is set before us:

Quote
Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

Philippians 2:5-7

Like it or not, we are the "servants" or the "slaves" of who we submit our members as "servants" or "slaves" too.  So, I'm a slave.   :)
AMEN!


Title: Re:About Slavery
Post by: Soldier4Christ on September 29, 2005, 10:09:28 PM
.....and a second Amen!



Title: Re:About Slavery
Post by: curious on October 01, 2005, 07:18:23 AM
      That's correct,in the NT,if not most of the Bible it says servant when it should be slave.In reality we are either a slave  for one or the other.To God or to Satan.......I choose God.  ;D

              Yours in Yeshua,
              curious


Title: Re:About Slavery
Post by: nChrist on October 01, 2005, 08:18:57 AM
Amen Brothers and Sisters,

The Children of God are happy and willing servants of GOD. In fact, I think that I prefer the term, "slave of God", because that's what I really what to be.

Maybe this has been mentioned and maybe not, history is full of different types of slavery in various cultures. One of the most common types was payment for something one didn't have the money to pay for. So, they voluntarily offered themselves into servitude for something they wanted (i.e. education, trade, passage to another country, etc.).

Many of the people coming to America were slaves in one way or another. Many were serving sentences of servitude for so-called crimes against the crown, and many more paid for their passage to the new world with the only thing they had - their labor. I might add that it was a binding contract and a violation of the law to break the contract. The voluntary and involuntary slave were returned by force to the master when they tried to escape. The labor was for payment of a lawful debt, be it for a crime or for a contract of servitude.

Other various types of contract servitude were involved for the purchase of land, homes, equipment, etc. Whole generations of people were slaves of one type or another, and the vast majority were NOT black. The specific time frame I'm mainly talking about is roughly 50 years before and after 1776, but there were still white families all over the country serving as sharecroppers into the 1900s. In fact, my dad's family were sharecroppers almost until 1940. However, most sharecroppers were free to go, but they didn't have anything to go to.

The Bible also involved many types of slavery, many involving voluntary types. Others were taken in battle and many involuntary ways. As we all know, the entire nation of Israel were slaves at one time.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Job 36:10-11 NASB  "He opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they return from evil. "If they hear and serve Him, They will end their days in prosperity And their years in pleasures.


Title: Re:About Slavery
Post by: Brother Jerry on October 03, 2005, 01:09:31 PM
I have often heard people talk about how the Bible talks of slavery so thus Christians must condone slavery.  

Let us get something strait on that.  Not once will you find in the Bible where God has directed us to make slaves of people.  But what you do find is many directions on how to treat slaves.  And those are in respectful manners.  

Before anyone starts to scream at all let me elaborate :) Because I am not condoning slavery.  But what we can gather by studying the Bible is that slavery was an invention of man and not that of God.  Throughout the Bible God has stepped in to provide us guides on how to deal with the evils that we have instituted.  Man brought in slavery but it was God who dictated the proper treatment of slaves.  It is God's desire to remove slavery and in His time He is doing so.  

The treatment of slaves was just as bad in the OT times as American histories.  The Hebrews of Moses' time were not treated as simple debtors working off a debt.  The Pharoh saw them as a threat and conquered them and forced them under whips and beatings to do hard labor and build his city.  

But if the Hebrews were to ever find themselves in a situation where they had slaves then they were to do so for the individual for only 6 years then they were to set them free with money and food.  And if they were to beat their slaves then they were to be set free.  The slaves of the Hebrews were treated with more respect than the Hebrews were shown by the Egyptians.  

There are many verses that show how a Jew at the time should treat a slave and many to remind that same Jew of their history and how they were treated as slaves.

Are we to have slaves today?  No I believe that God's plan was to rid the world of the abomination of the man created idea of slavery.  And in todays societies around the world for the most part slavery is not accepted.  But did people have slaves?  Most certainly and God provided a means to show how slaves should be treated as people and to share a love to them instead of treating them as property.

Brother Jerry.


Title: Re:About Slavery
Post by: nChrist on October 03, 2005, 07:13:50 PM
Hello Brother Jerry,

I see this is your first post, so WELCOME!!

(http://www.sirinet.net/~blkidps/welcome.gif)

I sincerely hope that you enjoy Christians Unite.

I enjoyed your post. I was just thinking that the Bible even contains instructions about how beasts of burden are to be treated.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 120:1 NASB  In my trouble I cried to the LORD, And He answered me.


Title: Re:About Slavery
Post by: Brother Jerry on October 04, 2005, 04:40:51 PM
Thanks for the greeting BEP.

But I used to go by Tog Neve.  Was quite some time ago actually.  And could not recall the log in information so just went with a new one.

And thank you for the comments as well.  And you are correct there are verses that talk about the treatment of animals as well.  I still find it truly amazing how much there is in the Bible and when you sit down and do a study, and I mean an in depth study, you can find even more and more of God's plan for us.

Be looking for some further posts and things from me.  I have many lessons I taught for the teens on some good topics.  

Later

Brother Jerry


Title: Re:About Slavery
Post by: nChrist on October 04, 2005, 05:55:09 PM
Hello Brother Jerry,

I can't remember, so I'll just say welcome back.

Indeed, the Bible is an amazing Book. There is something new to learn every time I study, even on my favorite portions of Scripture. I look forward to your studies.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 5:20-21 NASB  The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.