How well do you know your Bible?

[Petro]

tibby,

You agree with ebia, because both of you ride the same wave, the baffoo wave.

You said;

Oh yeah, I couldn’t help but notice Gal 2:16 has justified in it. Very interesting, don’t you think? Especially with what you said about this before… Now, YOU are contradicting your self, my brother.

You do not even understand what Gal 2:16 says, you pretend to.

It is plain, "for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.", and the law is summarized in two commandments.

Charity is the one the Catholic church teaches, saves men from sin.

I suppose you consider this teaching garbage, also..

Read James 2:18, I don’t think you understand it. He is clearly saying Faith is nothing with good works, he is saying “show me your dead Faith, I will show you my true faith.”

Well, lets see, if this is true;

Jas 2
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

Wrong, the word dead is one you have added, it doesn't even appear in the verse..

Your own interpretation of the passage in Jamess 2, proves that men consider other mens faith dead, unless they can prove their faith by showing works based on charity to them.

As if they are god, and judge other mens faith.

Men are saved by FAITH in Jesus, and show forth this great truth by obeying God in doing good works.

Petro

[Heidi]

Faith is simply faith. We can't muster it up. If we give, we are to give with the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. If we call attention to our good works, then we are doing it for our glory rather than for God's. True good works come from the fruits of the spirit, but if we're doing good works to show what wonderful Christians we are, then they are meaningless. In those cases, we always want something back from the "victims" of our giving. So, good works, alone mean nothing. It is the spirit in which we give it that shows if they're coming from faith. That faith comes from a lifetime process of feeling the depth of our sins so we can understand the full measure of forgiveness. Good works are then a "response" rather than a "decision".

[Tibby]

Charity is the one the Catholic church teaches, saves men from sin.

If this is the basic for the whole argument, then I see your problem. The RCC, or any other catholic church for that matter, does not believe that. NO truly Christian Group believes that, Catholic included. Works alone will not save you. If you are saved, you WILL do good works. If you do not do good works, your faith is dead, you are not saved.  If you do works alone, and have no faith, don’t believe in Jesus, you are not saved. Nor by your works do Catholic believe your sins are forgiven. But our own repentance and God grace are we forgiven. Ask any catholic, any real catholic, no amount of good works will get an Atheist into heaven. You only read part of the Catholic Doctrine if you think any Catholic rite believes works only will save you.

[Saved_4ever]

Tib's two things A) A car does not NEED to have tires to move.  IT certainly is benificial but it's not needed.  Semantics I know but I though it would be fun.  

Now then, could you please answer my previous question.  It has little to do with petro and his thing.

[Tibby]

Then what, if not wheels on the bottem, does a car need to move? Did somone order my flying car, yet?  

Which question was that? The one about good works? It can be something as big as giving up all your worldly possesions and devoting your life to helping the poor of India, or something a small as saying a little prayer for someone who is having some problems. It is a work, an act of some kind, that helps others and futhers the gospal. If you don't have such things in your life, how can you possably be saved? That is my point.

[ebia]

Read James 2:18, I don’t think you understand it. He is clearly saying Faith is nothing with good works, he is saying “show me your dead Faith, I will show you my true faith.”

Well, lets see, if this is true;

Jas 2
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

Wrong, the word dead is one you have added, it doesn't even appear in the verse..

I does if you include 2:17

[Petro]

Charity is the one the Catholic church teaches, saves men from sin.

If this is the basic for the whole argument, then I see your problem. The RCC, or any other catholic church for that matter, does not believe that. NO truly Christian Group believes that, Catholic included. Works alone will not save you. If you are saved, you WILL do good works. If you do not do good works, your faith is dead, you are not saved.  If you do works alone, and have no faith, don’t believe in Jesus, you are not saved. Nor by your works do Catholic believe your sins are forgiven. But our own repentance and God grace are we forgiven. Ask any catholic, any real catholic, no amount of good works will get an Atheist into heaven. You only read part of the Catholic Doctrine if you think any Catholic rite believes works only will save you.

tibby,

It use useless to discuss, this doctrinal issue with someone who, flips and flops like a slippery fish, I gave you the teaching your church espouses, and you ignored it, just  as you have been ignoring Jason question...

The Catholic church teaches that though a man has faith in Jesus, that faith is dead, unless one does charitable work;

You must not be able to understand what you read, note I will post it again for you;

" Let no one therefore, dearly beloved, flatter himself on any merits of a good life, if works of charity be wanting in him, and let him not trust in the purity of his body, if he be not cleansed by the purification of almsgiving. For "almsgiving wipes out sin, kills death, and extinguishes the punishment of perpetual fire."

If men are not justified by keeping the Law, which is a work, then giving money or any charitable act much less..

I am pointing out to you what it is you are supposed to believe, obviously you have a problem with this.

So is this official teaching the catholic church holds to, garbage then??

Faith alone in Jesus according to the Word of God is all that is necessary to be justified.

Rom 3
24  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
28  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Abraham was justified by FAITH, noit by works Rom 4:1-5.

Rom 5
1  Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
9  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.


And of course because you are unable to comprehend what information is given you, you reject the truth.

Gal 2
 16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ,

If you want to detect what is false, study the truth..


Petro

[linuxgeek]

This all sounds like a debate with much strife and this of course is a sin according to the Apostle Paul.  

Tibby, please disprove this:

Jesus told one of the sinners on the cross next to Him that Today thought shall be with me in paradise.  Two things -- one, the sinner was absolutely incapable of doing anything while dying on the cross, yet by his faith had a personal assurance from Christ that he was saved and would be in paradise that day.

Two -- a car can move without an engine -- a flatbed towtruck often carrries a car when it can not move on it's own, just like the Lord Jesus carries us when we are down and broken.

If anyone can disprove what Jesus said to the sinner then you have proved works are needed for salvation.

Most importantly are we worshipping God and have we prepared to meet Him?

LinuxGeek

[Tibby]

Petro- I answers Jason’s question. You never answer any of mine, and then you accuse ME of not listening? You saw I flow flop like a fish, sounds more like a excuse. If this what pointless, then you would never talk about this again, but you will. You actions contradict your words.

It isn’t the Catholic church doesn’t teach that teaches that though a man has faith in Jesus, that faith is dead, unless one does charitable work. The Catholic Church teach is a man don’t do good works, he has no faith to start will.

I really do not understand your heart. How can you not read the gospel, read what Jesus gave went though for you and NOT want to help others!? How can you read About a man like Jesus ,and not want to live like him give like him?! How can you honestly believe Jesus, GOD, did all that for YOU, and NOT do good works? You say I avoid Jason’s question, but in almost every post, I have asked you this in one way or another, and you have not replied. DO not imply I am skipping questions when you are doing the same. You don’t want to discuses this issue, you have already decided this issue, it is dead to you. You only wish to read your own elongated dribble.


Yeah, Jesus told the Sinner on the cross they would be in heaven. The question is, who died first? Where they saved in the New Testament sense, or the old? Either way, his actions did prove. The only thing he could move with the least amount of  pain, his mouth. It not that an action? It is as much action as he could do. On top of all that, you are misunderstand the doctrine.

About a car being towed, read my post again, I addressed that. Like you cannot get to heaven on your family and friends faith. You aren’t going to pay a tow trunk to take you on a cross country trip. Well, you might, but I wouldn’t.

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

Could we please try to stop ripping each other to pieces?

Nobody is listening because of battle noises.

Everyone on all sides of the issue might learn something if the battle noise is reduced.

Thanks in advance for letting each other live.

In Christ,
Tom

[Saved_4ever]

Then what, if not wheels on the bottem, does a car need to move? Did somone order my flying car, yet?  

Which question was that? The one about good works? It can be something as big as giving up all your worldly possesions and devoting your life to helping the poor of India, or something a small as saying a little prayer for someone who is having some problems. It is a work, an act of some kind, that helps others and futhers the gospal. If you don't have such things in your life, how can you possably be saved? That is my point.

It needs wheels it doesn't need tires.  Watch cops or something sometime.  I've seen them go quite far on just the rims.  NO it's not semantics either.  I was just playing with you.

Now then if something as "small" as prayer is a work how would you ever know if someone was doing that?  How does prayer show your faith to men?  Especially if they can't see it?

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

Could it be that everyone is right and everyone is wrong at the same time?

Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

2 Timothy 1:9  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Romans 11:6  And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.
But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

James 2:26  For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Questions for mankind:

Can a person falsely profess to be saved? (A - Yes)

If a person claims to be saved and there is no change in their lives, were they saved or do they simply boast of being saved? (A - They were not saved)

If a person claims to be saved and there is no desire for the things of God, were they saved or do they simply boast of being saved? (A - They were not saved)

Is a person saved by Grace and faith alone? (A - Yes)

Is salvation a Gift from God that can't be earned, deserved, or paid for in any way by man? (A - Yes)

Are good works required for Salvation? (A - No)

Do the writings of Paul and James conflict and contradict each other? (A - No)

Does Paul clearly state that Salvation is by Grace alone and faith alone? (A - Yes)

Does James clearly state that faith without works is dead? (A - Yes)

REPEAT: Do the writings of Paul and James conflict and contradict each other? (A - No)

--------------------------
Conclusion: According to Paul, Salvation is by Grace alone and by faith alone. According to James, there is and will be evidence of Salvation if the person was truly saved. So, do the two conflict? No, they perfectly compliment each other.

In Christ,
Tom

[Petro]

Conclusion: According to Paul, Salvation is by Grace alone and by faith alone. According to James, there is and will be evidence of Salvation if the person was truly saved. So, do the two conflict? No, they perfectly compliment each other.

This is exactly the point, the person that is saved, will produce good works for God, but not to be saved; but becuase that person is saved

Petro

[nChrist]

This is exactly the point, the person that is saved, will produce good works for God, but not to be saved; but becuase that person is saved

Petro

Oklahoma Howdy to Brother Petro,

Exactly! If you think about this from several perspectives, good works can become a more beautiful thing. If good works were required for Salvation, how many people would do them grudgingly or half-hearted? However, a truly saved person does good works from a grateful heart because of the Grace, Love, and GIFT of God. There is obviously a big difference between doing something because you feel who have to as opposed to doing it because you want to out of a heart of love. All good that results is to the Glory of Almighty God alone.

In Christ,
Tom

[Tibby]

This is exactly the point, the person that is saved, will produce good works for God, but not to be saved; but becuase that person is saved

Ya think? What have we been argueing about?