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Theology => General Theology => Topic started by: DareDevil on September 22, 2003, 11:37:21 PM



Title: Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: DareDevil on September 22, 2003, 11:37:21 PM
Christianity is Jewish...IF...you believe the Bible.

Consider this Bible verse:

"But he is a Jew....which is one 'inwardly'....is that of the heart...in the spirit...and, not in the letter....but of God" (Romans 2:29).

Now, is that really so strange ?

 Jesus Christ...our Lord and Savior...himself, was a Jew.

And aren't Christians suppose to have Jesus in our hearts ?


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: Heidi on September 23, 2003, 10:50:12 AM
Ah...Christ's lineage was from the Jewish people but He, of course, established His own religion. Christ showed the true meaning of the Old Testament to the Jews but they didn't understand it and still don't to this day.


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: aw on September 23, 2003, 02:59:20 PM
I agree. The believers in Christ have always been a remnant. So, in Romans 11 when ut says "ALL Israel shall be saved," it is speaking to the Jewish remnant that comes out of the great tribulation.

The nation of Israel does have a future and all of the promises made to her and the covenants will be fulfilled. They are separate from the church and are God's earthly, as opposed to heavenly, people. They will rule over the nations and be the head and not the tail.

aw


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: ollie on September 23, 2003, 05:11:49 PM
 Galations 3:28.  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: ollie on September 23, 2003, 05:54:06 PM
Christianity is Jewish...IF...you believe the Bible.

Consider this Bible verse:

"But he is a Jew....which is one 'inwardly'....is that of the heart...in the spirit...and, not in the letter....but of God" (Romans 2:29).

Now, is that really so strange ?

 Jesus Christ...our Lord and Savior...himself, was a Jew.

And aren't Christians suppose to have Jesus in our hearts ?
Romans 2:28.  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
 29.  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.



Yes it simply means that the physical Jew is not the Jew any more,
but the true Jew is one inwardly where cicumcision is of the heart, in the spirit. Christians are spiritual Jews and the people of God. The physical Jews under the law given by Moses are no longer of God and can not be unless they Confess and believe Christ. Then they can be Jews again but of the Spirit. Spiritual.

 Colossians 3:1.  If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
 2.  Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
 3.  For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
 4.  When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
 5.  Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
 6.  For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
 7.  In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
 8.  But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
 9.  Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
 10.  And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
 11.  Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

 12.  Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
 13.  Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
 14.  And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
 15. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.


Paul lists Jews, Gentiles and God's church seperately in this verse. Other verses make distinction also.
However it is Jews and Gentiles called by the gospel of Jesus Christ that are ONE in Christ Jesus and makeup the church of God.

1 Corinthians10:32.  Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:


1 Corinthians 12:13.  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.




Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: ollie on September 23, 2003, 06:11:25 PM
Ah...Christ's lineage was from the Jewish people but He, of course, established His own religion. Christ showed the true meaning of the Old Testament to the Jews but they didn't understand it and still don't to this day.
Christ did not establish His own religion, but fulfilled, the prophecies that came down through the prophets that were under the laws of God as given to Moses, and also was doing  the will of His Father in Heaven.  The Jewish scriptures given of God were a schoolmaster unto Christ and a shadow of the true things of God that were to come. The first being natural and the second being spiritual.


Matthew 26:42.  He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: Heidi on September 23, 2003, 07:10:16 PM
Well of course Christianity came from God, but it is through Christ that we reach God. Followers of Christ are called Christians. By the way, God has ordained all of the religions because He uses them for His purposes. It was prophesied that the descendants of Abraham would form a great nation and that the sons of Ischmael would be wild as a donkey. Their religion will play a key part in prophesy as will the Jewish religion.


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: DareDevil on September 23, 2003, 11:04:01 PM
Quote

The nation of Israel does have a future and all of the promises made to her and the covenants will be fulfilled. They are separate from the church and are God's earthly, as opposed to heavenly, people. They will rule over the nations and be the head and not the tail.Once you understand Daniel 9:24-27...you'll know that the nation of Israel has no more place in Bible prophecy. The were given a certain time period to get their act together...and when they rejected CHrist as the Messiah..their fate as a nation was sealed for all time.


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: Petro on September 24, 2003, 01:24:23 PM
Quote
posted by daredevil as reply #7
Daniel 9:24-27...you'll know that the nation of Israel has no more place in Bible prophecy. The were given a certain time period to get their act together...and when they rejected CHrist as the Messiah..their fate as a nation was sealed for all time.

Daredevil

Perhaps you need at little Juadism 101,  Christians are not Jews in the sense of the word, and neither is Christianity Judaism.

The word Jew taken from the Hebrew word "yehudi" which is derived from Judah (Yehudah) one of the sons of Jacob, whose name God changed to Israel.

 Judaism literally means "Judah-ism," that is, the religion of the Yehudim."

"Originally, the term Yehudi referred specifically to members of the tribe of Judah, as distinguished from the other tribes of Israel. However, after the death of King Solomon, the
Nation of Israel was split into two kingdoms: the kingdom of Judah and the kingdom of Israel (I Kings 12; II Chronicles 10). After that time, the word Yehudi could properly be used to describe anyone from the kingdom of Judah, which included the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi, as well as scattered settlements from other tribes. The most obvious biblical example of this usage is in Esther 2:5, where Mordecai is referred to as both a Yehudi and a member of the tribe of Benjamin."

Bsides all of these facts, the Apostle Paul is referring to religious men who rest their faith on keeping the Law of Moses, and boast in their relationship to God ;

Notice verse 17;

Rom 2
17  Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

The rest of this passage adresses those whom are circumscised into the physical practice of Judaism, which is defined as "outward circumscision", and then at the verse you hang your hat at, Paul simply state that the real Jew is one who has been circumcised of the heart by the spirit.

So clearly one is not made a physical Jewish descendant of Jacob because he is circumcised of the heart by the spirit at all.

The promise to Abraham was that he would be a father to many nations, this in itslef, rejects the idea that all would be Jews (descendants of Jacob).

So you error, leads to a greater error, and that is that God is thru with the Nation of Israel.

Pure and simple...

This distinction is necessary because of Abraham's son Ishmael, whose line certainly isn't Jewish, even though they are descendants of Abraham.

Now, consider tyhe verse;

"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." Galatians 3:7

We see here that Gentiles are referred to as children of Abraham because of their faith, but that doesn't mean they are descendants of Jacob.

Although the Apostle reveals a mystery at Eph 3, that the total sum of Israel would include the gentiles and those to whom the promises were made, doesn't make these gentiles descendants of Jacob either.

What Paul clearly states is that those who are circumscised of the Heart by the Spirit, these are the real children of God, and sons of Abraham.

Petro


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: Heidi on September 24, 2003, 01:55:04 PM
The sons of Abraham will either follow the Islamic or the Jewish religion. HOWEVER, the ones whom God has chosen to be from Him, can come out of ANY religion. Those are the ones whom Petro coined as being circumcized of the heart by the spirit. They are still physical descendants of Abraham but the real children of God.


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: Petro on September 24, 2003, 02:42:53 PM
The sons of Abraham will either follow the Islamic or the Jewish religion. HOWEVER, the ones whom God has chosen to be from Him, can come out of ANY religion. Those are the ones whom Petro coined as being circumcized of the heart by the spirit. They are still physical descendants of Abraham but the real children of God.

heidi,

Right on!!

Petro


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: Heidi on September 24, 2003, 07:29:25 PM
Thanks, Petro. it's always nice to be agreed with. Happy face.


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: eliyosef on October 09, 2003, 12:14:56 PM
Truely Christianity is not a Jewish type religion. It went way far from the tradition that is Judaism.  What jesus taught was way off of tradition. He encouraged work on Shabbat he reconfigured passover to fit his theology, and the for the most part the christian bible was greek. with a greek type human/god at the head as always. so no taken froma Jew the christian bible is not Jewish.

Shalom U'vracha
Eliyosef

p.s. Im bored that is the only reason im here ;)


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: Heidi on October 09, 2003, 11:06:13 PM
Actually, eliyosef, there are many things to do in life. You picked this forum because it was your least stressful option. Otherwise, you'd be doing something else.


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: eliyosef on October 10, 2003, 12:46:16 PM
Actually, eliyosef, there are many things to do in life. You picked this forum because it was your least stressful option. Otherwise, you'd be doing something else.

actually heidi I was off work and i was out fo class at college so i really didnt have that much to do other than just surf and chat. and if you dont like my point of view well that is just tuff ::)


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: Heidi on October 10, 2003, 03:33:30 PM
Eliyoseph, you picked this forum for a reason, otherwise you wouldn't have picked it. Happy face.


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: Paul2 on October 10, 2003, 06:24:45 PM
I agree. The believers in Christ have always been a remnant. So, in Romans 11 when ut says "ALL Israel shall be saved," it is speaking to the Jewish remnant that comes out of the great tribulation.

The nation of Israel does have a future and all of the promises made to her and the covenants will be fulfilled. They are separate from the church and are God's earthly, as opposed to heavenly, people. They will rule over the nations and be the head and not the tail.

aw

      DITTO!!!!!! 8)

                                                          Paul2


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: ollie on October 10, 2003, 07:34:25 PM
Truely Christianity is not a Jewish type religion. It went way far from the tradition that is Judaism.  What jesus taught was way off of tradition. He encouraged work on Shabbat he reconfigured passover to fit his theology, and the for the most part the christian bible was greek. with a greek type human/god at the head as always. so no taken froma Jew the christian bible is not Jewish.

Shalom U'vracha
Eliyosef

p.s. Im bored that is the only reason im here ;)
Jesus Christ fulfilled Judaism on the cross.It is gone, done away with. God's people are now living under the grace of God through Faith in Jesus Christ. Not by the law as given to Moses. The law only makes us aware of our transgressions. Christ's blood removes them.
 
Christ did not reconfigure the passover. He is the the true passover. Judaism only had a shadow of the true passover.
 
Jesus Christ is Lord of the sabbath.

He did nothing to fit His theology, He did the will of His Father in Heaven, God.

The word of god was given to inspired men of God and was not just penned in koine Greek, but also Hebrew.

 The Hebrew scriptures are not Jewish either.


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: Heidi on October 10, 2003, 08:21:07 PM
Christ fulfilled the law for us which is why He is now a replacement for passover. Since none of us can obey the law, He is our atonement. Once we accept that, we are free from the law. It is then used for our benefit rather than as a necessity.


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: John the Baptist on October 11, 2003, 08:22:14 AM
Christianity is Jewish...IF...you believe the Bible.

Consider this Bible verse:

"But he is a Jew....which is one 'inwardly'....is that of the heart...in the spirit...and, not in the letter....but of God" (Romans 2:29).

Now, is that really so strange ?

 Jesus Christ...our Lord and Savior...himself, was a Jew.

And aren't Christians suppose to have Jesus in our hearts ?

*********
Very true! Isa. 5:3 tells of the MATURE choice for Israel as a Virgin Denomination!
But, is it possible to have CHRIST IN THE BORN AGAIN HEART and not be 'IN' HIS VIRGIN DOCTRINES? Hardly!
First comes Matt. 28:20 & then Acts 5:32, and the dis/obedient leftovers? read the next verse!


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: eliyosef on October 11, 2003, 02:25:35 PM
Truely Christianity is not a Jewish type religion. It went way far from the tradition that is Judaism.  What jesus taught was way off of tradition. He encouraged work on Shabbat he reconfigured passover to fit his theology, and the for the most part the christian bible was greek. with a greek type human/god at the head as always. so no taken froma Jew the christian bible is not Jewish.

Shalom U'vracha
Eliyosef

p.s. Im bored that is the only reason im here ;)
Jesus Christ fulfilled Judaism on the cross.It is gone, done away with. God's people are now living under the grace of God through Faith in Jesus Christ. Not by the law as given to Moses. The law only makes us aware of our transgressions. Christ's blood removes them.
 
Christ did not reconfigure the passover. He is the the true passover. Judaism only had a shadow of the true passover.
 
Jesus Christ is Lord of the sabbath.

He did nothing to fit His theology, He did the will of His Father in Heaven, God.

The word of god was given to inspired men of God and was not just penned in koine Greek, but also Hebrew.

 The Hebrew scriptures are not Jewish either.
Sorry to burst the bubble but yes jesus did twist the passover from the original meaning and might i add way off into left field, lets see, to go from the passing over of the angel of death over the Hebrew Households   to this is my body and this is my blood eat and drink of it   is definately a change a very big and horriblely corrupted change   me thinks he spent to much time with the greeks. ;D
How does one fullfill the Torah lets look at what is required, oh wait G-d said the Torah is Eternal   too bad :(. Jesus on the cross if he existed was a very roman execution for more than likely being a revolutionary.  
And Yes the Hebrew scriptures are Jewish they were written by Jews for the Jews to educate Jews.  to correct you they were not written first in Greek they were written in Hebrew first.

My next Question is are you a Jew??? If Not then you are a Gentile and gentiles were never under the Sinai/Abrahamaic Covenant anyway so your claim to an end to the Torah is fallacious and carries no weight; me Jew you Gentile. This reminds me of a bit of scripture that goes against and really disproves jesus' "supposed end" to the Torah   Psalms 119:151-152   read it and weep about Torah's eternalness, plus there are more where that came from all over Torah and the prophets and writings just to mention another since you believe that the Torah(Law) is not perfect   read Psalms 19:8-9 :P

Also since you seem to think jesus was some sort of sacrifice   the Torah also Prohibits human sacrifices   :)


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: Heidi on October 11, 2003, 04:56:26 PM
Of course He was a sacrifice, Eliyoseph! He died for everything you or any of us ever does wrong. His death and sacrifice was prophesied all through the OT and Torah...unless of course, you don't believe the Torah.


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: ollie on October 11, 2003, 05:03:30 PM
Christ fulfilled the law for us which is why He is now a replacement for passover. Since none of us can obey the law, He is our atonement. Once we accept that, we are free from the law. It is then used for our benefit rather than as a necessity.
Yes, and amen and hallelujah!


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: ollie on October 11, 2003, 05:12:23 PM
The cleansing of Christ's blood on all that are His will cause a wonderful passover of God's wrath for those that are found faithful at the end. However the passover begins when one comes into Christ and the journey to the promised land begins and the tyranny of Eygpt, (sin), is over. If you are washed in the blood of Christ, the plagues of God upon the heathen will not scathe you.

Christ is the passover!


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: Heidi on October 11, 2003, 05:27:54 PM
Right on, Ollie!


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: eliyosef on October 12, 2003, 11:05:15 AM
The cleansing of Christ's blood on all that are His will cause a wonderful passover of God's wrath for those that are found faithful at the end. However the passover begins when one comes into Christ and the journey to the promised land begins and the tyranny of Eygpt, (sin), is over. If you are washed in the blood of Christ, the plagues of God upon the heathen will not scathe you.

Christ is the passover!

LoL first off christ has nothing to do with athe passover other than he celebrated his version of it when he got older and he celebrated it when he was younger. I may as well apply the same logic and say I am the passover.  Jesus very much is not the passover. Actually you have the passover incorrect it was when the angel of death passed over the Hebrew households as per the tenth plague of Egypt. The actual Journey to the promised land is the Exodus from Egypt. The journey to the promised land didnt begin until Pharoh told them to Go after the last plague, then the journey begins, the other stuff before the Great Exodus was preliminary to show to the Hebrews that G-d is with them. So no Jesus is not the passover he twisted and bent the passover to fit a man/deity complex  that was totally greek. Actually the plagues were upon the Egyptians now you are generalizing people as heathens that is not the tradition of passover, and no christ was not a type of sacrifice the Torah prohibits Human sacrifice so sacrifice consideration for him is null and void because of G-d's word against human sacrifice and the Torah's word is eternal, without end(Psalm 119:151-152). so in conclusion he is not the passover because the original passover is about the angel of death passing over the Hebrew households not the body and blood of some first century "greek" Jew. and second of all jesus is no type of sacrifice because G-d's Torah prohibits such an act and G-d does not go against his word(Torah), so to say that jesus was a human sacrifice is to call G-d a liar when he prohibited human sacrifices. "The Torah(Law) of HaShem is perfect renewing life; the decrees of HaShem are enduring making the simple wise." Psalm 19:8-9

you are really reaching when comparing Egypt to sin since in Genesis it was the choice of the Hebrews to go to Egypt because of Famine in the land and it just happened that Joseph took His family in and gave them land to dwell on. to compare Egypt to sin is incorrect and by far reaching for something that isnt there. ;D ;)



Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: eliyosef on October 12, 2003, 11:15:55 AM
Christ fulfilled the law for us which is why He is now a replacement for passover. Since none of us can obey the law, He is our atonement. Once we accept that, we are free from the law. It is then used for our benefit rather than as a necessity.
Yes, and amen and hallelujah!
Well Heidi since you are a gentile you were never under Jewish Law to begin with. Second no one can fulfill the Torah for one not all Laws apply at every point in time. Third Jesus did not fulfill the Torah nor did he obey all of G-d's law.  For example how did jesus, since he was a man, do the commandments forwomen such as during her period, i would really like to know how he pulled that off, did he change his sex every now and then. ???.  fourth how did he do the functions of the Temple priest, he was not a levite so he could not do the levite commandments nor the commandments of the High priest. the very fact that he was not a levite keeps him from being able to do that, so what did he change tribes also every now and then ???. he even broke the commandment to obeserve Shabbat(sabbath) by telling his disciples it is ok to work when G-d said to do no work on that day and keep it a holy day.   :'(
So in conclusion he was very far from doing all of G-d's commandments and fulfilling the Torah in any way. besides the Torah(Law) is eternal and perfect(Psalms 19:8-9; 119:151-152)


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: Heidi on October 12, 2003, 04:54:18 PM
You have no idea what Jesus means by fulfilling the law, Eliyoseph. What He means is that we no longer have to try to obey the law because we can't anyway. None of us can love God all of the time or our neighbors all the time or never lust or hate or covet, etc. He was the supremem sacrifice once and for all and instead of doing all those rituals which are exhausting, we now only have to accept His sacrifice. Now we don't NEED the law to get God's love as the Jews still do. All we have to do is accept that we are forgiven through Christ's death on the cross. But the jews are still slaves to the law which they can't obey all the time anyway. Their lives are based on restrictions and fear. The Christian life is based on liberation and love.  


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: John the Baptist on October 12, 2003, 07:49:09 PM
You have no idea what Jesus means by fulfilling the law, Eliyoseph. What He means is that we no longer have to try to obey the law because we can't anyway. None of us can love God all of the time or our neighbors all the time or never lust or hate or covet, etc. He was the supremem sacrifice once and for all and instead of doing all those rituals which are exhausting, we now only have to accept His sacrifice. Now we don't NEED the law to get God's love as the Jews still do. All we have to do is accept that we are forgiven through Christ's death on the cross. But the jews are still slaves to the law which they can't obey all the time anyway. Their lives are based on restrictions and fear. The Christian life is based on liberation and love.  

********
You can't what?? That is not the Word of God!! :'(. Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9 says otherwise! Yes, surely one 'FIRST' needs the Born Again REBIRTH!

The type of 'professed' Christian of your posting discription would be the most miserable of people! Not being able to keep from sinning??? (lust, you say? steal, lieing, killing? What is next?) Wow! Who would want to be a Christian that is POWERLESS in your type of Christ?? (as the above verses tell us otherwise!)



Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: Raphu on October 12, 2003, 08:10:25 PM
I have to disagree with eliyosef's assertion that the promise given to Abraham was not to Gentiles, and AW's comment about "all Israel" being saved.

Studying the covenant in Genesis 17:1-6 I found that a "hamon goyim"(many nations), in verse four is a promise to make Abraham a father of "multitudes of Gentiles", specifically, a people who would cause a tumultuous commotion, or great noise (about Abraham's God), throughout the world. Their heirs would be exceedingly fruitful.

Here is the Strongs of many nations in vs. five:

01995 Nwmh hamown haw-mone’ or Nmh hamon (#Eze 5:7) haw-mone’

from 01993; TWOT-505a; n m

AV-multitude 62, noise 4, tumult 4, abundance 3, many 3, store 2, company 1, multiplied 1, riches 1, rumbling 1, sounding 1; 83

1) (Qal) murmur, roar, crowd, abundance, tumult, sound
1a) sound, murmur, rush, roar
1b) tumult, confusion
1c) crowd, multitude
1d) great number, abundance
1e) abundance, wealth
*******
01471 ywg gowy go’-ee rarely (shortened) yg goy go’-ee

apparently from the same root as 01465; TWOT-326e

AV-nation 374, heathen 143, Gentiles 30, people 11; 558

n m
1) nation, people
1a) nation, people
1a1) usually of non-Hebrew people
1a2) of descendants of Abraham
1a3) of Israel
1b) of swarm of locusts, other animals (fig.)

n pr m 1c) Goyim? =" nations"

To me, this means that Abraham was the father of both the Jewish people and the Gentile people. Both houses of Israel were branches cut off by their sins and taken into captivity. Ephraim (being those of the lost tribes) would represent those when Jesus spoke of other "sheep which are not of this fold; I must bring them in also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd." And "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (John 10:16; Matthew 15:24) - that have heard the voice of the shepherd, Jesus, and have been grafted back in. Judah went back to Jerusalem and rebuilt the wall, but rejected Messiah which is explained in Romans 11:25-26 - "For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery - so that you will not be wise in your own estimation - a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in: and thus all Israel will be saved...." Notice that ALL Israel will be saved in the end, which does go back to Ezekial 37 and the uniting of the two sticks or dead branches that had been cut off but now to be brought to life by His Spirit.

Another reference to the two houses of Israel is in Hebrews 8:8 were Israel and Judah are the recipients of the better covenant through Christ. Israel was always known as the house of Ephraim or Joseph, as the house of double blessing and the first born of God. Ephraim means to prosper while in captivity.
Here is a prophetic statement about these two dhouses that is being fulfilled even now:
Ezekial 37:16  Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: 17  And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
As I have stated at earlier times. I think the church is the house of Ephraim, hidden in a "pleasant place" - the USA - all these years and never really lost to God. As the Jews, the house of Judah convert and become aware of Messiah, the two houses will once again become "one" in God's hand.

Hosea 9:13  Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, is planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer.

Jeremiah 31:9  They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.





Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: John the Baptist on October 12, 2003, 08:25:54 PM
I have to disagree with eliyosef's assertion that the promise given to Abraham was not to Gentiles, and AW's comment about "all Israel" being saved.

Studying the covenant in Genesis 17:1-6 I found that a "hamon goyim"(many nations), in verse four is a promise to make Abraham a father of "multitudes of Gentiles", specifically, a people who would cause a tumultuous commotion, or great noise (about Abraham's God), throughout the world. Their heirs would be exceedingly fruitful.

Here is the Strongs of many nations in vs. five:

01995 Nwmh hamown haw-mone’ or Nmh hamon (#Eze 5:7) haw-mone’

from 01993; TWOT-505a; n m

AV-multitude 62, noise 4, tumult 4, abundance 3, many 3, store 2, company 1, multiplied 1, riches 1, rumbling 1, sounding 1; 83

1) (Qal) murmur, roar, crowd, abundance, tumult, sound
1a) sound, murmur, rush, roar
1b) tumult, confusion
1c) crowd, multitude
1d) great number, abundance
1e) abundance, wealth
*******
01471 ywg gowy go’-ee rarely (shortened) yg goy go’-ee

apparently from the same root as 01465; TWOT-326e

AV-nation 374, heathen 143, Gentiles 30, people 11; 558

n m
1) nation, people
1a) nation, people
1a1) usually of non-Hebrew people
1a2) of descendants of Abraham
1a3) of Israel
1b) of swarm of locusts, other animals (fig.)

n pr m 1c) Goyim? =" nations"

To me, this means that Abraham was the father of both the Jewish people and the Gentile people. Both houses of Israel were branches cut off by their sins and taken into captivity. Ephraim (being those of the lost tribes) would represent those when Jesus spoke of other "sheep which are not of this fold; I must bring them in also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd." And "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (John 10:16; Matthew 15:24) - that have heard the voice of the shepherd, Jesus, and have been grafted back in. Judah went back to Jerusalem and rebuilt the wall, but rejected Messiah which is explained in Romans 11:25-26 - "For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery - so that you will not be wise in your own estimation - a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in: and thus all Israel will be saved...." Notice that ALL Israel will be saved in the end, which does go back to Ezekial 37 and the uniting of the two sticks or dead branches that had been cut off but now to be brought to life by His Spirit.

Another reference to the two houses of Israel is in Hebrews 8:8 were Israel and Judah are the recipients of the better covenant through Christ. Israel was always known as the house of Ephraim or Joseph, as the house of double blessing and the first born of God. Ephraim means to prosper while in captivity.
Here is a prophetic statement about these two dhouses that is being fulfilled even now:
Ezekial 37:16  Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: 17  And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
As I have stated at earlier times. I think the church is the house of Ephraim, hidden in a "pleasant place" - the USA - all these years and never really lost to God. As the Jews, the house of Judah convert and become aware of Messiah, the two houses will once again become "one" in God's hand.

Hosea 9:13  Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, is planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer.

Jeremiah 31:9  They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

********
How about Gen. 12:5 "...and the [SOULS] that he had gotten in Haran. ..." And then in Lev. 17:8! "And thou shall say unto them. (?) Whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, [OR OF THE STRANGERS] ..."  (Verse 9) [SHALL BE CUT OFF]!

You are right, Abraham was the father of all. But, ALL [ARE] SPIRITUAL JEWS if they are Christs! Rom. 2:28-29.


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: ollie on October 12, 2003, 09:04:53 PM
How can the conclusion Jesus was a "diviner" be reached when it is asserted by the conclusioner that there is no historical record of Him?



Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: Heidi on October 12, 2003, 09:23:38 PM
John,
Are you free from sin? If you are, then you are the second perfect person who's ever lived. Maybe you should be canonized. Happy face.


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: John the Baptist on October 13, 2003, 07:48:59 AM
John,
Are you free from sin? If you are, then you are the second perfect person who's ever lived. Maybe you should be canonized. Happy face.
**********
Hi Heidi,
If you were [sincerely] asking the question of me, I would explain to you the Everlasting Gospel Plan according to Rev. 14:6. But I do not know if you are sincere or not, do I??

Yet, let me just leave you with a few verses from the Master' Word. Can you understand Paul's descriptive words?? See Philippians 3:12, and then verse 15! Or some extra ones of verse 16? Then comes 18-19??? No law??? Hardly!

But which class are PERFECT "IN" CHRIST? See the "IN" CHRIST of Rom. 8:1


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: eliyosef on October 13, 2003, 08:32:06 AM
I have to disagree with eliyosef's assertion that the promise given to Abraham was not to Gentiles, and AW's comment about "all Israel" being saved.

Studying the covenant in Genesis 17:1-6 I found that a "hamon goyim"(many nations), in verse four is a promise to make Abraham a father of "multitudes of Gentiles", specifically, a people who would cause a tumultuous commotion, or great noise (about Abraham's God), throughout the world. Their heirs would be exceedingly fruitful.

Here is the Strongs of many nations in vs. five:

01995 Nwmh hamown haw-mone’ or Nmh hamon (#Eze 5:7) haw-mone’

from 01993; TWOT-505a; n m

AV-multitude 62, noise 4, tumult 4, abundance 3, many 3, store 2, company 1, multiplied 1, riches 1, rumbling 1, sounding 1; 83

1) (Qal) murmur, roar, crowd, abundance, tumult, sound
1a) sound, murmur, rush, roar
1b) tumult, confusion
1c) crowd, multitude
1d) great number, abundance
1e) abundance, wealth
*******
01471 ywg gowy go’-ee rarely (shortened) yg goy go’-ee

apparently from the same root as 01465; TWOT-326e

AV-nation 374, heathen 143, Gentiles 30, people 11; 558

n m
1) nation, people
1a) nation, people
1a1) usually of non-Hebrew people
1a2) of descendants of Abraham
1a3) of Israel
1b) of swarm of locusts, other animals (fig.)

n pr m 1c) Goyim? =" nations"

To me, this means that Abraham was the father of both the Jewish people and the Gentile people. Both houses of Israel were branches cut off by their sins and taken into captivity. Ephraim (being those of the lost tribes) would represent those when Jesus spoke of other "sheep which are not of this fold; I must bring them in also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd." And "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (John 10:16; Matthew 15:24) - that have heard the voice of the shepherd, Jesus, and have been grafted back in. Judah went back to Jerusalem and rebuilt the wall, but rejected Messiah which is explained in Romans 11:25-26 - "For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery - so that you will not be wise in your own estimation - a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in: and thus all Israel will be saved...." Notice that ALL Israel will be saved in the end, which does go back to Ezekial 37 and the uniting of the two sticks or dead branches that had been cut off but now to be brought to life by His Spirit.

Another reference to the two houses of Israel is in Hebrews 8:8 were Israel and Judah are the recipients of the better covenant through Christ. Israel was always known as the house of Ephraim or Joseph, as the house of double blessing and the first born of God. Ephraim means to prosper while in captivity.
Here is a prophetic statement about these two dhouses that is being fulfilled even now:
Ezekial 37:16  Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: 17  And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
As I have stated at earlier times. I think the church is the house of Ephraim, hidden in a "pleasant place" - the USA - all these years and never really lost to God. As the Jews, the house of Judah convert and become aware of Messiah, the two houses will once again become "one" in God's hand.

Hosea 9:13  Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, is planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer.

Jeremiah 31:9  They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

********
How about Gen. 12:5 "...and the [SOULS] that he had gotten in Haran. ..." And then in Lev. 17:8! "And thou shall say unto them. (?) Whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, [OR OF THE STRANGERS] ..."  (Verse 9) [SHALL BE CUT OFF]!

You are right, Abraham was the father of all. But, ALL [ARE] SPIRITUAL JEWS if they are Christs! Rom. 2:28-29.

"John did you forget about bout Abraham's Son Ishmael."  No John you are not spiritual Jews you are Goyim(i.e. gentiles or fo other nations)context. Paul whom you are quoting was barely a Jew he spent way too much time with the greeks :(. OK the Hebrew Av'Haman Goyim does not mean a multitude of Gentiles for two very good reasons. 1. the definition of goyim is Nations or it could mean gentiles or gentile nations if used with vulgarity or if context demands as such. 2.Here in the case of the Now Avraham the Jew it is implying he will father a multitude of nations of his offspring.  His offspring(i.e. the previous verses) are the Jews and those who are associated with Him such as Ishmael. You see in teh previous lines the covenant established with Abraham was not only the covenant of circumcision but of being  being fruitful and his children will be fruitfull and the nations that come from his children are the Nations it is speaking of. The context of teh word brings it to Nations and not Gentiles. For one Avraham at the time of the covenant was not a gentile anymore but the first Jew so the context for gentile nations was thrown out. Nice try ;)


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: Heidi on October 13, 2003, 09:44:23 AM
John,
The law is now for our BENEFIT, rather than a necessity to get into heaven. Jesus said that no on can ever take away any letter of the law. The law will always be true. BUT, Jesus forgave us, PRECISELY because we are incapable of keeping the law. Now that we are forgiven, the law is in our hearts rather than on a piece of paper. The more of our sins that we confess, the more forgiveness we receive which is what produces the fruits of the spirit. Once we see how we are still attached to greed, envy, lust, gluttony, sloth, pride and wrath, we realize that we can never be sinless. The only thing that makes us perfect is Christ's blood. Therefore, my earlier statement that we Christians still sin, stands.


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: John the Baptist on October 13, 2003, 01:43:35 PM
John,
The law is now for our BENEFIT, rather than a necessity to get into heaven. Jesus said that no on can ever take away any letter of the law. The law will always be true. BUT, Jesus forgave us, PRECISELY because we are incapable of keeping the law. Now that we are forgiven, the law is in our hearts rather than on a piece of paper. The more of our sins that we confess, the more forgiveness we receive which is what produces the fruits of the spirit. Once we see how we are still attached to greed, envy, lust, gluttony, sloth, pride and wrath, we realize that we can never be sinless. The only thing that makes us perfect is Christ's blood. Therefore, my earlier statement that we Christians still sin, stands.

******
Hi, you did not answer [my] 'sincere' question as to your sincereity?

And about the Law of God. It NEVER was a way to get into heaven!! It was ALWAYS CHRIST! "Without me ye can do nothing" (John 15) What did Cain's offering show us?

The Gospel IS EVERLASTING as IS THE LAW OF GOD. Satan fell from grace, how? What condemned him?? The verses are Rev. 14:6 & Heb. 13:20 again. The ones of Heb.11:13 ALL died being saved the SAME WAY! [AN 'OBEDIENT' FAITH IN CHRIST]

---John


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: Heidi on October 13, 2003, 06:23:44 PM
Before Christ came to the earth, John, Heaven didn't exist. People were left with having to obey the law to feel redeemed. The Jews and the Moslems still have to do that today. Once Christ came to the earth, He had to preach to the ones who hadn't heard His message in Abraham's bossom. Christ was always there from the beginning but He had to suffer on the cross and die for us in order that we be forgiven and receive the holy Spirit. As Paul says, we are NO LONGER slaves to the law as people once were.


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: ollie on October 13, 2003, 06:35:10 PM
How can the conclusion Jesus was a "diviner" be reached when it is asserted by the conclusioner that there is no historical record of Him?



Title: Was Paul a "Greek Jew"?
Post by: ollie on October 13, 2003, 07:06:29 PM
Where are the references that inform that Paul was a Greek Jew?



Paul tell us of whence he came:

Philippians 3:4.  Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
 5.  Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
 6.  Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

 7.  But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
 8.  Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
 9. And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
 


Title: Re:Was Paul a "Greek Jew"?
Post by: eliyosef on October 14, 2003, 10:43:23 AM
Where are the references that inform that Paul was a Greek Jew?



Paul tell us of whence he came:

Philippians 3:4.  Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
 5.  Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
 6.  Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

 7.  But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
 8.  Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
 9. And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
 
So you are saying paul was the founder of your religion now I'm confused ???....lol...  I highly doubt just by looking at his theological points that he was anything less thana greek Jew.


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: Heidi on October 14, 2003, 12:31:24 PM
Paul was a Roman who was baptized with the Holy Spirit. God periodically gave the Holy Spirit to some people in the OT, David being one of them. Jesus said that He would send the Holy Spirit to earth after He died. The disciples all received it at pentecost which is what made them all of a sudden give their lives up for Christ when they had previously run away from Him. Paul received the Holy Spirit on the road to Damascus. The Holy Spirit comes from God which you should know if you believe the Torah. The holy Spirit showed Paul and the disciples that Jesus was the messiah and the way to God. Without the Holy Spirit, we cannot believe that Christ is the messiah, just like David couldn't do God's will without the Holy Spirit. Since the Holy Spirit is from God and it also shows us that Jesus is the way to God, Jesus has to be the way to God because God is telling us that through the Holy Spirit.  Once we receive the Holy Spirit, we feel the presence of Jesus. It isn't a decision based on words, it is a knowledge that he is real and is telling the truth. Without the Holy Spirit, you cannot believe in God.


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: ollie on October 14, 2003, 05:23:01 PM
Paul was a Roman who was baptized with the Holy Spirit. God periodically gave the Holy Spirit to some people in the OT, David being one of them. Jesus said that He would send the Holy Spirit to earth after He died. The disciples all received it at pentecost which is what made them all of a sudden give their lives up for Christ when they had previously run away from Him. Paul received the Holy Spirit on the road to Damascus. The Holy Spirit comes from God which you should know if you believe the Torah. The holy Spirit showed Paul and the disciples that Jesus was the messiah and the way to God. Without the Holy Spirit, we cannot believe that Christ is the messiah, just like David couldn't do God's will without the Holy Spirit. Since the Holy Spirit is from God and it also shows us that Jesus is the way to God, Jesus has to be the way to God because God is telling us that through the Holy Spirit.  Once we receive the Holy Spirit, we feel the presence of Jesus. It isn't a decision based on words, it is a knowledge that he is real and is telling the truth. Without the Holy Spirit, you cannot believe in God.

Paul was a Roman citizen, but he was not Roman, but Jewish of the tribe of Benjamin, born in Tarsus, Celicia.


Title: Re:Was Paul a "Greek Jew"?
Post by: ollie on October 14, 2003, 07:49:57 PM
Where are the references that inform that Paul was a Greek Jew?



Paul tell us of whence he came:

Philippians 3:4.  Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
 5.  Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
 6.  Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

 7.  But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
 8.  Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
 9. And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
 
So you are saying paul was the founder of your religion now I'm confused ???....lol...  I highly doubt just by looking at his theological points that he was anything less thana greek Jew.
Say what???    ???


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: ollie on October 14, 2003, 07:52:18 PM
How can the conclusion Jesus was a "diviner" be reached when it is asserted by the conclusioner that there is no historical record of Him?


No answer yet!



Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: JesusLives on October 14, 2003, 10:26:46 PM
Ollie, who accused (or referenced) Jesus to a diviner?  


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: ollie on October 15, 2003, 01:21:54 PM
Ollie, who accused (or referenced) Jesus to a diviner?  
Someone in the forum that calls him/herself "Eliyosef.

It was not in this thread, I thought it was. It is in apologetics under, "Jewish".

Eliyosef gave Deutoronomy 13 as a scripture saying Christ fit this scripture as a "false prophet and diviner". The names were used elsewhere by the same poster to describe Jesus Christ.

Deuteronomy 13

 1.  If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, and
 2.  And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
 3.  Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
 4.  Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
 5.  And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
 6.  If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
 7.  Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
 8.  Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
 9.  But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
 10.  And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
 11.  And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.
 12.  If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the Lord thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,
 13.  Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;
 14.  Then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;
 15.  Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
 16.  And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the Lord thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.
 17.  And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;
 18.  When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the Lord thy God.


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: Brother Love on October 23, 2003, 10:00:00 AM
Is Christianity Jewish ?

The Answer is NO!

Brother Love :)


Title: Salvation is of the Jews! John 4:22 n/t
Post by: aw on October 23, 2003, 11:03:33 AM
nt


Title: Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: Ambassador4Christ on October 23, 2003, 02:10:19 PM
vt


Title: Re:Is Christianity Jewish ?
Post by: ollie on October 24, 2003, 04:07:01 PM
There is neither Jew nor Greek, but one in Christ Jesus.