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IS Matthew, Mark,  Luke  and John in the New Testament

Please give reason for your answer

<:)))><

Yes Matthew, Mark,  Luke  and John is in the New Testament. Why, because the Bible tells me so.

Sheesh!!!

Seems to me God knew what HE was doing when the scriptures were written. Had HE not wanted the OT and the NT to be divided where they are they wouldn't have been. One believes the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God or they don’t.

John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.

John 3:16-21For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son: that whosoever believeth in him may not perish, but may have life everlasting. For God sent not his Son into the world, to judge the world: but that the world may be saved by him.  He that believeth in him is not judged. But he that doth not believe is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the judgment: Because the light is come into the world and men loved darkness rather than the light: for their works were evil. For every one that doth evil hateth the light and cometh not to the light, that his works may not be reproved. But he that doth truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest: because they are done in God.

Matthew 7:1-2 ,5-8 Judge not, that you may not be judged.   For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. Give not that which is holy to dogs; neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest perhaps they trample them under their feet, and turning upon you, they tear you. Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you. For every one that asketh, receiveth: and he that seeketh, findeth: and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened.

Mark 1:1-2 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.   As it is written in Isaias the prophet: Behold I send my angel before thy face, who shall prepare the way before thee.
Mark 9:2-And his garments became shining and exceeding white as snow, so as no fuller upon earth can make white. And there appeared to them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. And Peter answering, said to Jesus: Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. And let us make three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

Luke 1:1-4 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a narration of the things that have been accomplished among us, According as they have delivered them unto us, who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word: It seemed good to me also, having diligently attained to all things from the beginning, to write to thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, That thou mayest know the verity of those words in which thou hast been instructed.

Yes, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are in the New Testament.

Matthew 1:1  The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Jesus Christ is the New Testament. The central and most precious focus is THE CROSS. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are most often described as a view of the life and ministry of Jesus Christ from four perspectives. Some say they represent a foundation for the transition from Law to Grace, as they do not reveal the mysteries of Christ not made known to men of other ages.  Many students of the Holy Bible will generally state that many portions of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are to and for Israel, but they still lead to the CROSS, and many of the most precious portions speak volumes to all of us.

As an example, many portions of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John refer to Christ as King, ruling and reining over the earth from the throne of David (i.e. The Millennial Kingdom - 1,000 year reign of Christ). This is obviously yet to come. The greatest joy and peace of the New Testament obviously involves what we have RIGHT NOW, a LIVING Lord and Saviour who died on the CROSS for us. We don't have to wait to ask Jesus Christ to come into our hearts as Lord and Saviour. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John do not reveal the Church which is the BODY OF CHRIST, but they do reveal Jesus Christ, manifest in the flesh, as the Son of God, VERY GOD.

Here's the controversial portion that could lead to a very large and beautiful Bible study. Jesus Christ was born under the Law, and HE lived and died under the Law. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John lived under the Law. The matchless GRACE AND LOVE OF GOD was revealed at the CROSS in the GIFT and PERFECT SACRIFICE of Jesus Christ. A completely NEW and MOST PRECIOUS reality was then possible for all of mankind: A Saviour who died for us; A Saviour who arose from the dead; A LIVING SAVIOUR who is VERY GOD; our Lord and Saviour who bought us with HIS BLOOD, a LOVING GREAT SHEPHERD who wants us to love HIM and accept HIM as Lord and Saviour.

In short, we don't look forward in time to the Millennial Kingdom. We can have the reality of Jesus Christ in our hearts as LORD and SAVIOUR RIGHT NOW!!!

If anyone is lost and reading this thread, Jesus Christ loves you and died for you. Won't you please consider asking Jesus Christ to come into your heart as Lord and Saviour?

Love In Christ,
Tom

"Luke the beloved physician and Demas greet you." - (Col 4:14)

"Only Luke is with me. Get Mark and bring him with you, for he is useful to me for ministry." - (2 Tim 4:11)

"Epaphras, my fellow prisoner in Christ Jesus, greets you, as do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, Luke, my fellow laborers." - (Phil 1:23-24)

"Aristarchus my fellow prisoner greets you, with Mark the cousin of Barnabas..." - (Col 4:10)

Matthew and John are mentioned throughout the New Testament, since they were two of the original twelve apostles.

(Also, Mark is called John in one of the Pauline epistles, which confused me at first, since there were three "John"s: John the baptist, John the revelator/apostle, and John-Mark.)

BTW, you can do word searches at audio-bible.com (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=&version=NKJV). It's convenient when you can't remember where in the bible you read something.

A will or testiment recquires death. Jesus Christ was alive in Mat, Mark and John.


Please note this is NOT my view but one i have come across via the net.


Has any one else been having  problems getting into CU?

Ummm, that just doesn't make sense. The physical death of Jesus is described in all four gospels.


Historians don't agree on exactly when the NT books were written. You could go to ten different websites that give dates as to when the books were written, and get ten different answers. We can't know for sure which historian is right, so it's best to regard dates of this kind as theory, not fact.


Earlier today it was really slow, but now it's fine.

Oklahoma Howdy to Sister Reba,

Yes, I've had trouble several times getting into CU, and I reported it to ADMIN. Spambots trying to harvest emails are again the primary problem. CU is obviously set to refuse to give any personal information at all about users. The slow down is obviously worse when more than one spambot at a time is trying to do the same thing.

I haven't been to bed yet, but I feel that I must comment about the word "Testament".

I think that some rely too much on man's definitions, but here is a little more to think about in using man's way of thinking. One is supposed to be alive and of sound mind to make a will. This is usually done in the presence of witnesses. It is true that the will is not executed until the person making the will dies. Well, we do have a living person, God manifest in the flesh. However, there were many beneficiaries who benefited before HIS death. AND, there are more people receiving the PROMISES every day. I simply thank God that I'm one of the beneficiaries.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Yes, OT ends on page 944.  Then theres a single white page that says New Testiment.  Page 1 starts Matt. then Mark, Luke, and John then follow.


Logical Analysis....all 4 are in the new testiment.   ;D   Most theologeons agree with my analysis...woohoo!

Grace and Peace!

BigD responds:
The gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are a continuation of the Old Testament.

A "testament" is a "covenant."

In Matthew 26:27,28 Jesus spoke of the His blood of the new testament (covenant).

The first covenant was made with the nation of Israel, and God made a promise with Isreal if they would keep that covenant they would become  "a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation" (see Exodus 19:5,6).

We can also find reference to that covenant in Hebrews 8:7-13. Verse 8 speaks of the "new covenant" (testament) which was prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-34. That "new covenant" (testament) is with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

Being Israel has been set aside temporarily, that makes the old covenant (testament) uninforceable. The new covenant (testament) is still not in effect. Therefore, we find ourselves living in an unprophesied period (parenthetical) between the two covenants (testaments). It is know as "the dispensation of grace",  "the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began."

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Gen 6:17-18

17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.
KJV

Gen 9:15-17

15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.

16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

17 And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.
KJV
 

BigD responds:
The covenant that God made wit Noah after the flood was a covenant that was fulfilled.

The Old Covenant that God spake unto Moses is for the nation of Israel and yet to be fulfilled. Israel is set aside and there for that covenant is not in force.

Jesus was speaking of the New Covenant in Matthew 26 that will be with the nation of Israel and, as yet has not been fulfilled. It will be fulfilled when Jesus establishes His Kingdom here upon the earth. That will fulfill the prophesy of Jeremiah 31 that I mentioned earlier.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Iin the words of Hitch  



LOL

Amen BigD

Amen again BigD

The covenant with Israel was not the first covenant as you have stated.

BigD responds:
I don't recall saying that the covenant with Israel was the first covenant that God made,

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Reba:
THANKS for pointing out the fact that I didn't make myself clear to you. Forgive me.

When I said: "The first covenant was made with the nation of Israel, and God made a promise with Isreal if they would keep that covenant they would become  "a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation" (see Exodus 19:5,6)." I had the context of Hebrews 8 in mind, and trying to show that the "new covenant" was to replace the "old covenant" that was made with Isreal back in Exodus 19.

I was also aware of the fact that God made an unconditional covenant with Abram in Genisis 12:1-3. That covenant is yet unfulfilled also.

I'll try to do better next time.

God Bless.
Live well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Gen 17:14

14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
KJV



 Sounds a bit conditional to me, Could man break an unconditional covenant?

Sheesh ...Big D you got the hic-cups ?

 :)


The boards are being weird   :P


Come to think of it they have been weird sense Dreamweaver turned BLUE  ;D

Gen 15:18

18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
KJV

Josh 21:43-45

43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.
KJV

Big D you said    "I was also aware of the fact that God made an unconditional covenant with Abram in Genisis 12:1-3. That covenant is yet unfulfilled also."

 Yet Gen 17:14 is very much a condition.


I said nothing about the Body of Christ, why the implication? You state the covenant wiht Abe is uncondidional yet you also state  Abes seed  had to be circumcised. A requirement is a condition.

Reba:
God's original covenant with Abram in Genesis was unconditional. That the world would be blessed through his seed Israel.

When God required Abraham to be circumcised, it did not change the original covenant but added a condition to it. It meant that Abraham's seed had to now be circumcised or "be cut off forever." The Sabbath Day requirement was also added later.

When God gave Laws to Moses, it did not change the original covenant but added still more conditions to it. The original covenat is still left unfulfilled.

The old covenant to Abram seed Israel is now null and void while the nation of Israel is in a "set aside" state. "...until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written. There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant, when I shall take away their sin" (Rms11:25-27).

The old original covenant with Abram will be fulfilled when the Chruch, the Body of Christ is raptured to heaven. God will then again deal with Abram's seed Israel, and Israel will again be under the Law.

However, Israel will still have to go through the Tribulation that started in Acts 2: 15-20, and was interrupted when God set the nation of Israel aside after the stoning of Stephen. At the end of the Tribulation; Christ will return to establish His Kingdom and Jeremiah 31:31-34, the "new covenant" will be then take place. Jesus said in Matthew 26:29 "But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, UNTIL THAT DAY WHEN I DRINK IT NEW WITH YOU IN MY FATHER'S KINGDOM."

Maybe this will help clarify my position somewhat.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

It did not change the covenant but added a condition to it? That is double talk. If as you say the covenant is/was unconditional adding a condition is a surly a change.


If the covenant is null and void it is no longer a covanent. Also to render the covenant null and void again speeks of conditions or it would still be viable.  

Do you see how this statement make the Cross of our Lord Jesus of no value. There are how many salvations, Only the cross.

Heb 5:9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
KJV


The position I understand I spent over 40 years under dispensational teaching. Let me pose a few questions for your last paragraph.

You say Israel will go through the trib…

What is Israel? What makes a person an Israeli?  Is it the ‘natural blood? As in DNA.  How much Israeli DNA is needed to say one is an Israeli? Does one have to be born in Israel are the Jews of New York, Florida, Israelis?  How does the blood of one parents lead to salvation? When we know salvation is His Cross.

You say the Israel will be under the law. Do you really believe after God sent Jesus to the Cross HE will again accept the blood of bulls and goats?

Heb 10:4-10

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
KJV

Thanks blame me........... This is the first time I have been back to this thread, since I became blue :'(

BigD posted:
God's original covenant with Abram in Genesis was unconditional. That the world would be blessed through his seed Israel.

When God required Abraham to be circumcised, it did not change the original covenant but added a condition to it. It meant that Abraham's seed had to now be circumcised or "be cut off forever." The Sabbath Day requirement was also added later.

Reresponded:
It did not change the covenant but added a condition to it? That is double talk. If as you say the covenant is/was unconditional adding a condition is a surly a change.

BigD replies:
Call it what you wish. I didn't do it; God did. Yes, the added condition was the change.

----------------------------------------------------------
BigD posted:
When God gave Laws to Moses, it did not change the original covenant but added still more conditions to it. The original covenat is still left unfulfilled.

The old covenant to Abram seed Israel is now null and void while the nation of Israel is in a "set aside" state. "...until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written. There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant, when I shall take away their sin" (Rms11:25-27).

Reba responded:
If the covenant is null and void it is no longer a covanent. Also to render the covenant null and void again speeks of conditions or it would still be viable.  

BigD replies:

The covenant with Abrahams seed has was/and is in a suspended condition during this period that Israel is presently set aside. That happened after the stoning of Stephen. So, in effect, the covenant is temporarily "null and void." All Jews are presently on the same footing and without distinction from the Gentiles. The Jew became equal with the Gentile when they were set aside. The Gentiles were set aside at the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11. "For God hath concluded them all (Jews and Gentiles) in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all" Romans 11:32.

The original unconditional covenat WILL BE fulfilled at a still future date.
-----------------------------------------------------------
BigD posted:
The old original covenant with Abram will be fulfilled when the Chruch, the Body of Christ is raptured to heaven. God will then again deal with Abram's seed Israel, and Israel will again be under the Law.

Reba responded:
Do you see how this statement make the Cross of our Lord Jesus of no value. There are how many salvations, Only the cross.

Heb 5:9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
KJV

BigD replies:
I fail to see that my above statement makes the Cross of our Lord Jesus of no value.  Tell me now, Were the children of Israel, in the OT and during the Gospels, saved by believing/doing  the Cross work of Christ, or doing the deeds and works of the Law by FAITH? Also, are we believers today saved by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH, or by putting our FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ? Were Adam and Ever saved by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH or putting their FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ? How about Noah, How was he saved, by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH, or by putting his FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ? Lets not forget about Abram/Abraham. Was he saved by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH, or by putting his FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ?

Stop and think Reba; They were all saved by believing/doing what God required at that point in time of human history. We today are saved by believing what God requires at this point in time of human history, i.e. Faith in the Cross work (death burial and resurrection) of Christ.

Jesus said in Matthew 15:24 "I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Paul says in Romans 15:8 "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers."

The promises were to the Jewish fathers was that they were to have a King that would sit on Davids throne forever. Before Jesus began His earthly ministry: John the Baptist preached "the Kingdom at hand." Jesus preached, and instructed His disciples to preach, "the Kingdom at hand." According to OT prophesy, the Kingdom was at hand, because the King was present on the earth. So why wasn't the kingdom established?

Well, two things must happen before the kingdom can be established upon the earth. The 70th week of Daniel 9:25-27 (the Tribulation) must happen, and also, Jesus said, speaking of Himself, in Luke 17:25 "But first mujst he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation."

Hebrews 5:9 does say: "He BECAME the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" Before Jesus became the author of eternal salvation unto all that obey him, He had to die upon the Cross of Calvary to pay for all the sins of the world. Prior to that time, the animal sacrifices and other requirements of the Law only covered past sins that were commmitted. They didn't cover future sins. That is why it was done on a continual basis. Hebrews 10:4-12 tell us how Jesus became the "once for all" sacrifice", of which the old animal sacrifces were a shadow and type.

The Cross was God's eternal purpose for the salvation of ALL mankind. However, the purpose of the Cross was never revealed until God raised up the Apostle Paul.
---------------------------------------------
BigD posted:
However, Israel will still have to go through the Tribulation that started in Acts 2: 15-20, and was interrupted when God set the nation of Israel aside after the stoning of Stephen. At the end of the Tribulation; Christ will return to establish His Kingdom and Jeremiah 31:31-34, the "new covenant" will be then take place. Jesus said in Matthew 26:29 "But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, UNTIL THAT DAY WHEN I DRINK IT NEW WITH YOU IN MY FATHER'S KINGDOM."

Reba responded:
The position I understand I spent over 40 years under dispensational teaching. Let me pose a few questions for your last paragraph.

You say Israel will go through the trib…

BigD replies:
Yes, read Daniel 9 and also Matthew 24 and Mark 13 and Luke 21. The are other OT Scriptures that I can look up, but I'm not going to take the time right now.


Reba continues:
What is Israel? What makes a person an Israeli?  Is it the ‘natural blood? As in DNA.  How much Israeli DNA is needed to say one is an Israeli? Does one have to be born in Israel are the Jews of New York, Florida, Israelis?  How does the blood of one parents lead to salvation? When we know salvation is His Cross.

You say the Israel will be under the law. Do you really believe after God sent Jesus to the Cross HE will again accept the blood of bulls and goats?

Heb 10:4-10

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
KJV

BigD responds:
Israel is the land that God promised to the Jewish nation. An Israili is one from the nation of Israel. I am a dutchman by heritage because my grandparents on both sides came from Holland.  I am an American by citizenship.

The blood of one parent does not necessarily lead to salvation. However it could and pray that it does.

In Luke 22:30 Jesus told His disciples: "That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Which to me says that Jesus returns and sets up His kingdom, there are Laws to be observed, and if there weren't, there would be no need for judges. The Laws will be written on their hearts.

God Bless.
Live Well,  Laugh Often,  Love the Lord!

Where in God's Word does He say the covenant with Abe is unconditional?



 Are you saying only Jews born in Israel will go through the trib?

Yes,

They are mentioned in the New Testament as heirs to the promise of God through their faith in Jesus Christ. As all who are faithful are mentioned as heirs to the promise.

ollie

Reba:
I will answer your questions above when you answer the ones I asked you in my last post to you.

I will repeat them for you:
BigD replies:
 Tell me now, Were the children of Israel, in the OT and during the Gospels, saved by believing/doing  the Cross work of Christ, or doing the deeds and works of the Law by FAITH? Also, are we believers today saved by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH, or by putting our FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ? Were Adam and Ever saved by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH or putting their FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ? How about Noah, How was he saved, by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH, or by putting his FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ? Lets not forget about Abram/Abraham. Was he saved by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH, or by putting his FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ?

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Yes when God seals his 144,000 witnesses to go forth and testify Gods word.

Right off hand I don't know the chapter or verse but, it is in the Book of revelations.

DreamWeaver:
FYI, the Tribulation that started in Acts 2:15-20, and was interrupted when God set the nation of Israel aside after the stoning of Stephen, will resume after the rapture of the Chruch. All member of the Body of Christ will be in heaven.

The only one remaining on the earth will expreience the Tribulation qnd Great Tribulation. That mumber will include all the unsaved in the world plus the sealed 144,000 mentioned in Revelation 7:4-8. They are "the little flock" that will be responsible for the savlation of "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations and kindreds, and people and tongues" mentioned in verse 9.

God Bless.
Live well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

GOOD NITE GERTY!!!![/b] Could[/b] we get ANY more Hyper Dipsy in here?  Come on!  "Is Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John in the New Testament?"  Next we'll be asking if that means there's more than one gospel!  Oh wait...that nut's already been cracked.

Speakin' of cracked...BL?   ;D

Well we know you are a little cracked Allinall. :P ;)

Part 1


BigD responds:
I AM NOT A HYPER-DISPENSATIONALIST!!!. However, I am not offended when I am refered to as one.

When I am asked my church affiliation, I usually respond by saying that I am what is refered to as a hyper/extreme dispensationalist. That brings on the responce "What's that?" that question give me the opportunity to present the gospel of the grace of God.

The following is taken from a past issue of the Berean Searchlight.

ARE WE HYPER-DISPENSATIONAILSTS:
By David M. Havard

Keywords: hyperdispensationalism, ultradispensationalism, dispensationalism, H. A. Ironside, Charles Baker, Pastor C. R. Stam, E. W. Bullinger, J. C. O'Hair, revelation of the mystery, body of Christ, Paul's gospel, gospel of the grace of God, Apostle Paul, rightly dividing the word of truth

Many years ago, H. A. Ironside1 published a booklet entitled Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth in which he threw Charles Baker and C. R. Stam into the same bucket as E. W. Bullinger. Ever since then, we have been labeled as having the same extreme views as Bullinger. Men who have never looked into what we really teach continue to spread the slander started by Ironside back in the 1930's. Besides, it's much easier to label us as "hyper" and dismiss us than it is to address us based on the Scriptures.

This was recently done again in the July/August 1999 issue of Uplook magazine (published by the Plymouth Brethren). In this their Dispensationalism Issues issue, they presented an excellent overview of dispensationalism. As a matter of fact, we would agree with the majority of what was written. But then, one writer had to add this statement:

"One final word. Like all good things, the study of dispensations can be abused. There are some Christians who carry dispensationalism to such an extreme that they accept only Paul's Prison Epistles as applicable for the church today. As a result, they do not accept baptism or the Lord's Supper, since these are not found in the Prison Epistles. They also teach that Peter's gospel message was not the same as Paul's….These people are sometimes called ultra-dispensationalists or Bullingerites (after a teacher named E. W. Bullinger). Their extreme view of dispensationalism should be rejected."2

This article was then followed by the following excerpt from Ironside's book:3

"What is Bullingerism or Ultra-dispensationalism? This system was first advocated some years ago by Dr. E. W. Bullinger (1837-1913), who was educated at King's College, London, and was a clergyman in the Church of England. These views have been widely spread through the notes of the Companion Bible which he edited. Dr. Bullinger's positions are glaringly opposed to what is generally accepted as orthodox teaching. This movement has been carried forth in our day by ardent proponents such as Cornelius Stam, J. C. O'Hair and Charles Baker.

"There are a number of outstanding tenets of Ultra-dispensationalism. First, it is insisted that the four Gospels are entirely Jewish and have no real message for the Church. Secondly, it is maintained that in the book of Acts we do not have the Church, the Body of Christ, but that the word ekklesia (church), as it is used in that book refers to a different Church altogether than that of Paul's Prison Epistles. Thirdly, it is contended that Paul did not receive his special revelation of the mystery of the Body until his imprisonment in Rome, and that his Prison Epistles alone reveal this truth and are, strictly speaking, the only portion of the Holy Scriptures given to the members of His Body. All of the other epistles of Paul are relegated to an earlier dispensation and were for the instruction of the so-called Jewish Church of that time. Fourthly, the Christian ordinances, having been given before Paul, are supposed to have no real connection with the present economy, and therefore are relegated to the past, and may again have a place in the future Great Tribulation.

"Beside these points, there are many other unscriptural things which are advocated by Bullingerism. Many boldly advocate the sleep of the soul between death and resurrection, the annihilation of the wicked, the universal salvation of all men and demons, the denial of the eternal Sonship of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the denial of the personality of the Holy Spirit. All these evil doctrines find congenial soil in Bullingerism or Ultra-dispensationalism."

"But wait!" You're thinking, "I don't believe those things!" Well, neither do I, but these are their tactics. As far as most Acts 2 folks are concerned, we agree with Bullinger's far out views regarding soul sleep, annihilation of the wicked, universalism, and that the Body of Christ did not start until Acts 28. You either believe in their interpretation of dispensationalism or you are an extremist like Bullinger. They do not recognize any middle ground. This is what we are up against.

In the above quote, Ironside lists some the "outstanding tenets" of what he calls "ultra-dispensationalism." While this is a convenient label, it does not Biblically address the issues. Let us examine what Ironside said (and everyone else seems to repeat) and see if we agree or not.

"First, it is insisted that the four Gospels are entirely Jewish and have no real message for the Church": We do not believe that the four gospels have no real message for the church—Paul says that ALL Scripture is profitable. However, we do believe (because we hold to a literal historical interpretation of the Bible) that Christ's earthly ministry was in keeping with Israel's prophetic kingdom program (Matt. 10:5-6; 15:24). We find application in the gospels to be sure, but to say that the basic message of the gospels is directed to the Body of Christ is not being consistent or literal. As Scofield says in his reference Bible, "The Epistles of the Apostle Paul have a very distinctive character....Through Paul alone we know that the church is not an organization, but an organism, the Body of Christ; instinct with His life, and heavenly in calling, promise, and destiny. Through him alone we know the nature, purpose, and form of organization of local churches, and the right conduct of such gatherings. Through him alone do we know that `we shall not all sleep,' that `the dead in Christ shall rise first,' and that living saints shall be `changed' and caught up to meet the Lord in the air at His return. But to Paul was also committed the unfolding of the doctrines of grace…Paul, converted by the personal ministry of the Lord in glory, is distinctively the witness to a glorified Christ, Head over all things to the church which is His Body, as the Eleven were to Christ in the flesh." And if, according to traditional dispensationalism, the Body of Christ started at Pentecost, how can it be found retroactively in the gospels? The message that Peter preached at Pentecost was an offer of the millennial kingdom to Israel (Acts 2:22) conditional upon their repentance and recognition of Jesus as their Messiah—something that we now know will not happen until after the tribulation.
(To be cont'd)

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Lover the Lord!

Part 2
ARE WE HYPER-DISPENSATIONALISTS?

Part 2:
"Secondly, it is maintained that in the book of Acts we do not have the Church, the Body of Christ, but that the word ekklesia (church), as it is used in that book, refers to a different Church altogether than that of Paul's Prison Epistles": You'd think they would at least understand this! Regarding the assembly in the book of Acts, we have both "churches" mentioned, depending on the context. If you see the Body of Christ in the gospels, you are closer to a covenant position than a dispensational one. If the Body is found in the gospels, then to be consistent, it also has to be found in the Old Testament prophetic program as well. It was Bullinger (with whom we do not agree) who said that the Body of Christ did not start until the close of the book of Acts and that only Paul's prison epistles are for us today.

"Thirdly, it is contended that Paul did not receive his special revelation of the mystery of the Body until his imprisonment in Rome, and that his Prison Epistles alone reveal this truth and are, strictly speaking, the only portion of the Holy Scriptures given to the members of His Body": We do not agree with Bullinger on this point either. We do say that Paul received a special revelation (Gal. 1:11-12), but we do not agree that only his prison epistles are applicable to us today. Paul began to receive his special revelation of the mystery upon his conversion in Acts 9.

"Fourthly, the Christian ordinances, having been given before Paul, are supposed to have no real connection with the present economy, and therefore are relegated to the past, and may again have a place in the future Great Tribulation": Regarding the "ordinances" of the church, there is no place in Scripture where water baptism and the Lord's supper are linked. The Lord's Supper is a memorial that we are instructed in I Corinthians 11 to keep "until He come." However, we do feel that water baptism is a Jewish ordinance and is something that was phased out during the transition period. It is also rarely pointed out that we are not unique in understanding that water baptism is not for today. Other groups throughout church history, such as the Quakers, have also come to this same conclusion.

"Many boldly advocate the sleep of the soul between death and resurrection, the annihilation of the wicked, the universal salvation of all men and demons, the denial of the eternal Sonship of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the denial of the personality of the Holy Spirit. All these evil doctrines find congenial soil in Bullingerism or Ultra-dispensationalism": This is the worst sort of guilt by association, but I'm sure you see the implication. If you believe in a mid-Acts position, then, according to them, you also believe in these extreme and unscriptural viewpoints as well. By associating us with these cult-like beliefs we can be discredited without ever having to answer our Biblical arguments.

This is what we are up against. These are the same battles, misunderstandings, and deliberate misrepresentations that Pastor Stam has had to fight against for over 60 years—and we must continue to do so today if the gospel of the grace of God is going to continue to go forward.

Yet rather than discourage us, these things should motivate us. We know what we have found. We know how confused we used to be. We can honestly say that this is a more consistent and literal approach to Scripture. We no longer have to explain away what the Bible clearly says in verses such as Acts 2:38. We know that by reading the Body of Christ back into the gospels, we rob them of their distinctive kingdom character. By not understanding the difference we either have to make the clear statements in the gospels (such as a distinction between Jew and Gentile and water baptism) conform to Paul's epistles (where he says there is no difference between Jew and Greek, and that he is the apostle to the Gentiles) by explaining them away or we have to read the gospels into Paul's epistles and make them conform to the message in the gospels (which is what John MacArthur has done with "Lordship Salvation").

We are not the wild-eyed radicals that the theological media tries to portray us as. We are in agreement with the overwhelming majority of traditional dispensationalism. Our two primary points of disagreement are that we see the Body of Christ starting with the conversion and call of the Apostle Paul and that water baptism is not a requirement for this dispensation.

Let us stand firm in proclaiming the unique message revealed to and through the Apostle Paul. It is like telling others about our faith in Christ. We know what it has done for us. We know that it has cleared away our confusion. Let us graciously and boldly share with others what this message has done for us.

Endnotes

1. If you can find someone who has a copy of The Controversy (it's now out of print), you can read more about Ironside's history as related to the Grace Movement.

2. William MacDonald, "Distinguishing things that differ," Up-look, July/August 1999, pp. 11-12.

3. Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth, H. A. Ironside, Loizeaux Brothers, New York, 1938.

God Bless.

I am NOT[/b] cracked...er...Mr. Dreamweaver, Sir.   ;D ;)

BigD,

I'm not concerned with what you call yourself (apart from "Brother"  :)).  In truth, the entire Bible is about Jesus Christ.  It's message is one of reconciling manking to God through Jesus Christ.  That means of reconciliation has been, and always will be based upon believing God.  God's message has not changed throughout the dispensations.  God's means towards attaining that reconciliation has not changed throughout the dispensations.  To believe so is to have a false understanding of the entire word...  

>>>>Note here: I do not mean by this that I have a complete understanding of that word, but rather that one must take the word as a whole to understand THE Gospel message.  It doesn't contradict.  It reveals.<<<<

...Rather, God's message has been revealed to a greater extent in each dispensation.  Simply Brothers, to continue on this doctrine, regardless of degree or fame, is to get caught up in the very "wives tales" we're told to avoid.  It does nothing.  We hold to the same message of salvation.  Believing that God saved men in different fashions in different ages is moot, whether or not it is incorrect or not.  To what benefit is it to decide that the Gospels should be in the Old Testament or not?

BigD responds:
You are the one that has stared the classification of those who post on this board.  If you were not concerned then why do you single out those you think are hyper-dispensationalists?

Dispensationalism is just a manner/means by which one studies the Scriptures. It is not a religeous denomination.

I know of Baptist, Pentecostals and many independants that consider themselves dispensationalist. I have met many people that claimed that were not dispensationalists who will now say that they are "dispensationalists of a sort."

If you insist that you are not a dispenationalist , but do not belive that animal sacrifice for the atonement for sins is required for today, then you are a "dispensationalist of sorts". If you do not believe that circumcision is required today, then you are "dispensationalist of a sort." If you do not keep all the Sabbath Day (Saturday) Laws, as required under the Law, then you are a "dispensationalist of a sort."

As a "dispensationalist", I believe that the attributes of God never change. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. However, I also believe that the manner in which God has dealt with mankind through the ages. I can't find where Adam and Eve were ever required to offer up animals for salvation/justification. God gave them a consience to live by to help them to now determine what was right or wrong.

Able was not saved/justified by building an Ark. He was saved/justified in bringing the offering that God required.

Noah was not saved/justified by counting the star in heaven. He and his faimily were saved by building an ark as God required.

Abram was not saved/justified offering Isaac as a sacrifice. He was saved/justified by just believing God when God told him to look up and count the stars in the heaven.

Abraham was not saved/juistified by keeping the CIVIL, MORAL and CEREMONIAL LAWS of Moses. He was saved/justified by offering his son Issac on an altar.

After the children of Israel were given the CIVIL, MORAL and CEREMONIAL LAWS of Moses, they were not saved/justified by putting their faith and trust in the Cross work (death, burial resurrection) of Christ, as members of "the Body of Christ", the Church do today.

So, from the above, you should be able to see that God has dealt differently with mankind throughout human history, AND His attributes never changed. Also, it shows "progressive revelation" by God.

There are no set amount of dispensations that one can find in the Bible. Paul in Ephesians 2 mentions three (3) dispensations. In verses 11, 12 he mentions "TIMES PAST" when the Gentiles were uncircumcised and outside the commonwealth of of Israel.

In verses 14-18 he talks about the "BUT NOW" time when the "middle wall of partition" between the Jew and Gentile was broken down, and the formation of "the one new man", the Body of Christ.

In verse 7 he speaks of "THE AGES TO COME", which all look forward to.

MOST who study the Bible from a dispensational point of view agree pretty much that there are 7 MAJOR dispensations recorded in the Bible. The one big area of disagreement in the dispensational ranks is when did the "dispensation of grace" begin.

The majority view amongst dispensationalis is the the Church, the Body of Christ, started at Pentecost in Acts 2.

Then there are the mid-Acts/Acts 9 dispies who believe that the dispensation of grace started after the stoning of Stephen and the raising up of the Apostle Paul. (That is my understaning from Scripture.)

Then we get to the Acts 28:28 dispies who believe that it started then; when Paul received the "full knowledge" of the mystery.

If you would like, I will post an outline of the 7 major dispensations, from the mid-Acts/Acts 7 position. Just let me know.

If it is you wish not to study the Bible from a dispensational viewpoint, that is you previlage. However, I have a better understanding of the Bible when I study it in that manner.

Prior to studying in that manner, the Bible was a book of seemingly contradictions. But now instead of contradictions, I can see transitions from one dispensation to the other. Therefore it became my choice of study.

I was taught that ALL the Bible was written TO ME. But I now believe that is ALL written FOR ME but not ALL TO ME. Therefore I study the entire Bible.

I have learned that from the "LAWS OF MOSES" to the setting aside of Israel, salvation/justification was by doing the deeds/works of the LAW by FAITH. Those Laws were given by God to Moses for the children of Israel as their instructions in righteousness.

From the setting aside of Israel and the ushering in of the dispensation of grace, our salvation/justification is by FAITH ONLY in the Cross work of Christ. Our salvation is a "free gift" of God to all those will put their FAITH and trust in His Cross works, no deed/works of the Law required. The instructions in righteousness for members of "the Body of Christ" were given by God to the Apostle Paul. Paul is the Apostle to "the Body of Christ;" just as Moses was God's spokesperson to the children of Isreal.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Because the Hyper-Dispensationalist viewpoint is what is being proported.  Whether you claim to be one or not is of no concern, hence "...I'm not concerned."  This viewpoint, as I stated, is unbiblical, and does nothing for this body of believers to continually have thrust in our faces.  The continual "thrusting" leads one to believe that the sole purpose for presenting this is arguementation for self gratification.  Again, pointless.


I understand exactly what Dispensationalism is, and consider myself a Dispensationalist.  I also understand what Hyper-Dispensationalism is and know it to be unbiblical.


I never claimed to not be a Dispensationalist.  I claimed the viewpoint of Hyper-Dispensationalism to be incorrect.  The points, all points of the Law were pictures of what Jesus would one day complete.  The salvific grace was found in believing God concerning them, not in the practice of them.  


Wrong.  Abel, Noah, Abram, and every other individual in the history of earth were not saved by adhering to a commandment of God's.  If so, then we work our way into God's grace.  What kind of grace is that?  Certainly not the grace given us in the pages of God's word.  

Abel was saved, not by bringing the right sacrifice, but by the heart which brought it.  A heart that believed God.  

Noah was saved, not by building the ark God commanded him to build (physically saved from drowning, yes, spiritually no), but by believing God.  His actions proved his belief.  His actions didn't save him.  God did.

Abraham was saved, not by offering Isaac up, but because he BELIEVED GOD when He said Abraham would have a son through Sarah his wife.  And through each individual, another part of God's redemptive plan was seen.  Not changed.  Revealed.  


They were saved by putting their faith in the coming Redeemer - The Law bared testimony throughout of Him.  Believers today are saved by putting their faith in The Redeemer come, His death, burial and resurrection.  Same plan.  Same God.  Same grace.  Levels of that revealed grace called Dispensations.


Yup.


Nope.  Personally, I believe Jesus started His church, but that's neither here nor there.  Grace started at the cross.   :)


Agreed.  Just make sure that the beliefs of those you have no problem being likened too are truly biblical.  The belief of various salvific plans is simply not.  The Dispensations teach us that my friend.  


Chapter and verse?  Because it was Paul who wrote to Timothy "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,"  and if I'm not mistaken...Timothy was a Greek.  


Then you've never learned the "LAWS OF MOSES."  The faith worked the deeds.  The deeds had no salvific grace.  Works minded salvation...


Amen, and then no.  No on the following only the Apostle Paul viewpoint.  Again, we split hairs.  I argue this because it is presented time and again, not to the edifying of the body, but to the arguement of a portion.  It is wrong.  I can live with others believing it, but when it is repeatedly posted for the sake of argumentation, I will argue it.

Part 1
BigD posted:
You are the one that has stared the classification of those who post on this board.  If you were not concerned then why do you single out those you think are hyper-dispensationalists?

Allin responds:
Because the Hyper-Dispensationalist viewpoint is what is being proported.  Whether you claim to be one or not is of no concern, hence "...I'm not concerned."  This viewpoint, as I stated, is unbiblical, and does nothing for this body of believers to continually have thrust in our faces.  The continual "thrusting" leads one to believe that the sole purpose for presenting this is arguementation for self gratification.  Again, pointless.

BigD replies
Please point out to  me where we have proported the Hyper-Dispensationalist viewpoint. The views that I posted are what I do believe the Bible teaches.
----------------------------------------------------

BigD posted:
Dispensationalism is just a manner/means by which one studies the Scriptures. It is not a religeous denomination.

I know of Baptist, Pentecostals and many independants that consider themselves dispensationalist. I have met many people that claimed that were not dispensationalists who will now say that they are "dispensationalists of a sort."

Allin all responded:
I understand exactly what Dispensationalism is, and consider myself a Dispensationalist.  I also understand what Hyper-Dispensationalism is and know it to be unbiblical.

BigD replies:
Again, point out what views that I have expressed that are Hyper-dispensational.
------------------------------------------------

BigD posted:
If you insist that you are not a dispenationalist , but do not belive that animal sacrifice for the atonement for sins is required for today, then you are a "dispensationalist of sorts". If you do not believe that circumcision is required today, then you are "dispensationalist of a sort." If you do not keep all the Sabbath Day (Saturday) Laws, as required under the Law, then you are a "dispensationalist of a sort."

Allinall responded:
I never claimed to not be a Dispensationalist.  I claimed the viewpoint of Hyper-Dispensationalism to be incorrect.  The points, all points of the Law were pictures of what Jesus would one day complete.  The salvific grace was found in believing God concerning them, not in the practice of them.

BigD preplies:
IMO, since the fall of man, in the Garden of Eden, God has ALWAYS shown grace by providing a means in which man could be saved. Throughout the history of man, salvation/justification was based upon man doing/believing, by FAITH, what God required at that point in time in human history.
----------------------------------------------------

BigD posted:
As a "dispensationalist", I believe that the attributes of God never change. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. However, I also believe that the manner in which God has dealt with mankind through the ages. I can't find where Adam and Eve were ever required to offer up animals for salvation/justification. God gave them a consience to live by to help them to now determine what was right or wrong.

Able was not saved/justified by building an Ark. He was saved/justified in bringing the offering that God required.

Noah was not saved/justified by counting the star in heaven. He and his faimily were saved by building an ark as God required.

Abram was not saved/justified offering Isaac as a sacrifice. He was saved/justified by just believing God when God told him to look up and count the stars in the heaven.

Abraham was not saved/juistified by keeping the CIVIL, MORAL and CEREMONIAL LAWS of Moses. He was saved/justified by offering his son Issac on an altar.

Allinall responds:
Wrong.  Abel, Noah, Abram, and every other individual in the history of earth were not saved by adhering to a commandment of God's.  If so, then we work our way into God's grace.  What kind of grace is that?  Certainly not the grace given us in the pages of God's word.  

Abel was saved, not by bringing the right sacrifice, but by the heart which brought it.  A heart that believed God.  

Noah was saved, not by building the ark God commanded him to build (physically saved from drowning, yes, spiritually no), but by believing God.  His actions proved his belief.  His actions didn't save him.  God did.

Abraham was saved, not by offering Isaac up, but because he BELIEVED GOD when He said Abraham would have a son through Sarah his wife.  And through each individual, another part of God's redemptive plan was seen.  Not changed.  Revealed.  

BigD replies:
As I have said above. Salvation/justification was ALWAYS by FAITH in what God required at that point in time of human history.
-------------------------------------------------------

BigD posted:
After the children of Israel were given the CIVIL, MORAL and CEREMONIAL LAWS of Moses, they were not saved/justified by putting their faith and trust in the Cross work (death, burial resurrection) of Christ, as members of "the Body of Christ", the Church do today.

Allinall responded:
They were saved by putting their faith in the coming Redeemer - The Law bared testimony throughout of Him.  Believers today are saved by putting their faith in The Redeemer come, His death, burial and resurrection.  Same plan.  Same God.  Same grace.  Levels of that revealed grace called Dispensations.

BigD replies:
SHOW ME from Scripture that the children of Israel were saved/justified by putting their faith in  the coming Redeemer. Chapter and verse PLEASE.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Part 2
BigD posted:
So, from the above, you should be able to see that God has dealt differently with mankind throughout human history, AND His attributes never changed. Also, it shows "progressive revelation" by God.

There are no set amount of dispensations that one can find in the Bible. Paul in Ephesians 2 mentions three (3) dispensations. In verses 11, 12 he mentions "TIMES PAST" when the Gentiles were uncircumcised and outside the commonwealth of of Israel.

In verses 14-18 he talks about the "BUT NOW" time when the "middle wall of partition" between the Jew and Gentile was broken down, and the formation of "the one new man", the Body of Christ.

In verse 7 he speaks of "THE AGES TO COME", which all look forward to.

MOST who study the Bible from a dispensational point of view agree pretty much that there are 7 MAJOR dispensations recorded in the Bible. The one big area of disagreement in the dispensational ranks is when did the "dispensation of grace" begin.

Allinall responds:
Yup.

BigD replies:
It's nice that we can  agree on something.
---------------------------------------------------

BigD posted:
The majority view amongst dispensationalis is the the Church, the Body of Christ, started at Pentecost in Acts 2.

Then there are the mid-Acts/Acts 9 dispies who believe that the dispensation of grace started after the stoning of Stephen and the raising up of the Apostle Paul. (That is my understanding from Scripture.)

Allinall responded:
Nope.  Personally, I believe Jesus started His church, but that's neither here nor there.  Grace started at the cross.

BigD replies:
Grace started in The Garden of Eden when man fell. The Chruch, the Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile on equal footing and without distinction, didn't start until AFTER God set the nation of  Isreal asided AFTER the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

BigD posted:
 If it is you wish not to study the Bible from a dispensational viewpoint, that is you previlage. However, I have a better understanding of the Bible when I study it in that manner.

Prior to studying in that manner, the Bible was a book of seemingly contradictions. But now instead of contradictions, I can see transitions from one dispensation to the other. Therefore it became my choice of study.

Allinall responds:
Agreed.  Just make sure that the beliefs of those you have no problem being likened too are truly biblical.  The belief of various salvific plans is simply not.  The Dispensations teach us that my friend.  

BigD replies:
Salvation/justification has ALWAYS been by FAITH. I have NEVER said otherwise. However, God required different requirements for individuals to demonstrate their FAITH. Able had to bring the required sacrifice by FAITH, Noah and to believe God and build an Ark by FAITH. Abram had to believe God and count the stars in heaven by FAITH. Abraham had to believe God and offer up his son by FAITH. I could keep going but this should give you the picture.
-----------------------------------------------------

BigD posted:
I was taught that ALL the Bible was written TO ME. But I now believe that is ALL written FOR ME but not ALL TO ME. Therefore I study the entire Bible.

Allinall responds:
Chapter and verse?  Because it was Paul who wrote to Timothy "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,"  and if I'm not mistaken...Timothy was a Greek.  

BigD replies:
Romans 15:4 "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."

Romans 15:8 "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the Circumcision, for the trtuth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers."

Matthew 15:24 Jesus said: "I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

We should be able to see that Jesus came to fulfill the promises made to the nation of Israel. The Jews rejected to One to fulfill them promises for them. Therefore, God set them aside and raised up the Apostle Paul, put the Jews in the same "set aside boat" that He placed the Gentiles in in Genesis 11 at the Tower of Babel. THEN God raised up the Apostle Paul to unsher in the dispensation of grace with Jew and Gentile on equal footing and without distinction. This "one new man" of Ephesians 2:14 is a "new creation", a member of the Body of Christ, the Chruch for today.

Prior to the setting aside of Israel, for a Gentile to serve the true and living God, that Gentile had to become a Jew (proselyte) and place themselves under the Law. Is that still true today?

-----------------------------------------------------
BigD posted:
I have learned that from the "LAWS OF MOSES" to the setting aside of Israel, salvation/justification was by doing the deeds/works of the LAW by FAITH. Those Laws were given by God to Moses for the children of Israel as their instructions in righteousness.

Allinall responds:
Then you've never learned the "LAWS OF MOSES."  The faith worked the deeds.  The deeds had no salvific grace.  Works minded salvation

BigD replies:
Read Ephesians 2:15 and Colossians 2:14.

----------------------------------------------------
BigD posted:
From the setting aside of Israel and the ushering in of the dispensation of grace, our salvation/justification is by FAITH ONLY in the Cross work of Christ. Our salvation is a "free gift" of God to all those will put their FAITH and trust in His Cross works, no deed/works of the Law required. The instructions in righteousness for members of "the Body of Christ" were given by God to the Apostle Paul. Paul is the Apostle to "the Body of Christ;" just as Moses was God's spokesperson to the children of Isreal.

Allinall responded:
Amen, and then no.  No on the following only the Apostle Paul viewpoint.  Again, we split hairs.  I argue this because it is presented time and again, not to the edifying of the body, but to the arguement of a portion.  It is wrong.  I can live with others believing it, but when it is repeatedly posted for the sake of argumentation, I will argue it.

BigD replies:
Then argue it from Scripture, and point out to me,FROM SCRIPTURE,my error. I am still in the learning mode. I welcome correction.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Big D we are moving and i just got my computer set up i do plan on answering your questions.. I thought i left you a message saying i would get back to you but i cant find it  old lady dorkdom stricks again.......


I do NOT agree with you Big D but i want to say THANK YOU  for posting in such a way to make reading the posts simple.  :P

Reba:
I am looking forward to your response.

Moving is quite an ordeal. I've been married 50 years and have spend 23 years in the Army and moved 23 times during that time. Know what you are going through.

Since my retirement in 1976 I have not moved once. In fact, I am still living in the home I bought in 1973, even before I retired. Dread the next one. You can't believe the amount of "stuff" I have to get rid of.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

I dont know if you are new here or a 'change of nickname' so i say to you i do not use words well i am NOT a writer i just sorta spit'em out.... I am not sure i understand your question questions that have answers supplied i am suspious of.. they read like a trap... Below are  messs of scriptures as to why i believe the OT people looked to the Cross as we also look to the Cross. There is one salvation that is Jesus Christ. You may not agree with my answer,  but i have answered. I would like to get back on the track as diversion is tactic i tend to scramble after.


Ps 20
20:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.

The LORD hear thee in the day of trouble; the name of the God of Jacob defend thee;

2 Send thee help from the sanctuary, and strengthen thee out of Zion;

3 Remember all thy offerings, and accept thy burnt sacrifice; Selah.

4 Grant thee according to thine own heart, and fulfil all thy counsel.

5 We will rejoice in thy salvation, and in the name of our God we will set up our banners: the LORD fulfil all thy petitions.

6 Now know I that the LORD saveth his anointed; he will hear him from his holy heaven with the saving strength of his right hand.

7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.

8 They are brought down and fallen: but we are risen, and stand upright.

9 Save, LORD: let the king hear us when we call.
KJV

Ps 18:2

2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.
KJV

Ps 18:46

46 The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted.
KJV

Ps 51:6-8

6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; t
KJV

Jer 3:23

23 Truly in vain is salvation hoped for from the hills, and from the multitude of mountains: truly in the LORD our God is the salvation of Israel.
KJV

Zech 9:9

9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

KJV Acts 4:10-12

10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved
KJV

Acts 26:22-23

22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
KJV

Deut 32:3-4

3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
KJV

1 Cor 10:4

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
KJV

 Ephesians 2:11. " Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
 12.  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
 13.  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
 14.  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
 15.  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
 16.  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
 17.  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
 18.  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
 19.  Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
 20.  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
 21.  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
 22.  In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."

Is not Paul telling the Ephesian gentiles they are fellow citizens with the saints and of the household of God built upon the foundation laid by the prophets and the apostles with Jesus as the chief cornerstone? Is this not telling us the prophets of old led to Jesus with their prophecies? Indicating that the faithful before the law and under the law looked forward to Jesus Christ and His salvation.

These verses also indicate that the commonweallth of Israel and the gentiles are joint heirs to the promises given to those found in the OT. through Jesus Christ. Having been made one through Christ. The binding element being the blood of Jesus Christ and faith in/on Him.

In the Spirit of His Love,
ollie

Amen Ollie & Reba! Great scripture references.

Here's another favorite of mine: Rev. 13:8 "All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

And another one showing that the same gospel we have was preached to the Israelites during the Exodus from Egypt: Heb. 4:2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them (the Israelites in the desert); but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it."

As for the poll for this thread, I would vote for "other" meaning that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John is part of the word, ONE word of God. And there has always been ONE gospel.

Blessings -

Chesed

You have made my day BigD :)

Your teachings are Right On, AMEN Brother


<:)))><

Despensationalismn teaches the church  His body will get weaker and weaker therefore Dispensationalism teaches a looser for a GOD.
Despensationalsim teaches contrary to scriptures concerning the Kingdom of God /Kingdom of Heaven
Despensationalsim teaches Gods laws are of no value today
Despensationalsim teaches the "Gap" theory
Despensationalsim came to be in about 1830
Gods word tells us Jesus was salin before the foundations of world
Despensationalsim teaches the Cross to be an after thought
Despensationalsim teaches salvation natural birth




One of my most prized possessions is a wore out tattered  beatup old well used Scofield bible it is a 1967 my brother got the earlyer one. I grew up believing Scofieds notes were scripture because they were printed in the Bible. Despensationalsim was taught in our home Dad being an AofG pastor.  My knowledge of dispensationalsim is a life long learning and for the last 20 years a unlearning so to speek. Dads ol Scofield is mine now and dads notes speak to the victory glory and power of God. His soverignity, His magistry.

Salvation is only in the Blood of Jesus

In our discussion as to how individuals were saved in the past, My contentions was, and is, that it has ALWAYS been by FAITH in what God required at that point in time of human history.

BigD asked the following questions from Reba:

"Tell me now, Were the children of Israel, in the OT and during the Gospels, saved by believing/doing  the Cross work of Christ, or doing the deeds and works of the Law by FAITH? Also, are we believers today saved by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH, or by putting our FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ? Were Adam and Eve saved by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH or putting their FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ? How about Noah, How was he saved, by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH, or by putting his FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ? Lets not forget about Abram/Abraham. Was he saved by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH, or by putting his FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ?"

Which she answered by quoting the following Bible verses. Ps 20; 18:2; 18:46 51:68; Jer 3:23; Zezh 9:9; Acts 4:10-12; Deut 32:3-4 and 1Cor 10:4.

None of the above verses answer the questions. I will therefore answer them for her. They are not trick questions or that hard to answer.

Q: Tell me now, Were the Children of Isreal, in the OT and during the Gospels, saved by believing/doing the Cross work of Christ, or do the deeds and works of the Law by FAITH"

A: By doing what God required during that point in time. By FAITH in doing the deeds/works of Law.
---------------------------------------

Q: Also, are we believers today saved by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH, or by putting our FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ?

A: By putting our FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ.
----------------------------------------

Q: Were Adam and Eve saved by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH or putting their FAITH and trust in the Crost work of Christ?

A: Neither. After the "fall" God gave them a conscience to know right from wrong. They were saved by FAITH in what God required of them and following their conscience.
-----------------------------------------

Q: How about Noah, Hwo was he saved, byu doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH, or by putting his FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ?

A: Neither. He was saved by FAITH in what God had atold him and by building the ark.
---------------------------------------------

Q:  Lets not forget about Abram/Abraham. Was he saved by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH, or by putting his FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ?

A:  Neither, He was saved by FAITH in believing what God had said. (see Genesis 15:5,6 for Abram and James 2:21,21 for Abraham.)
------------------------------------------

I have asked the above questions to show Reba that God has dealt with mankind in different manners through human history. the attributes of God have NEVER changed, however the manner in which He has dealt with mankind have changed through the course of human history.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord:

Ollie:
 In the passages of Ephesians 2:11-22 you have quoted, what I consider extremely important in understanding this dispensation of grace.

To understand the above passage more fully, we must know the history of mankind prior to this dispensation of grace.

Prior to God raising up Abram and taking a people unto Himself (Isreal), there were only Gentiles (non-Jews) in the world. They became exceedingly wicked, and therefore God set them aside at the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11. God raised up Abram, a Gentile, in Genesis 12 and made an unconditional covenant with him that through his seed (Israel) all the nations of the world would be blessed.

Through Moses, God gave Israel His instruction in righteousness for the children of Israel to live by, and gave them the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws to keep by FAITH. Further, God told Moses, in Exodus 19:5-6 that if they would keep His covenats (commandments) they would be ",,,unto Me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation."

After the Temple was built, God established the Aaronic Priesthood. For one to enter the priesthood, that one had to go through a ceremonial washing (baptism) to become a priest (Exodus 30:19-21).

Sometime later, God promied the children of Israel that He would send One that would sit on David's throne forever" (2Sam7:13), and that the kingdom would be upon this earth.

During the time that God was dealing with the nation of Isreal, under the Law, the Gentiles were outside the commonweatlth of Israel, and had none of their promises that God gave to the nation of Israel. For one that was a Gentile, and if that one wanted to serve the true and living God of Isreal, that one had to become a Jew (proselyte), and place themselves under the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws of Moses.

So, when the proper time of OT prophesy, Christ came into this world, born of a virgin, to establish His kingdom. The King has arrived as a babe in Bethlehem. John the Baptist, Jesus and the 12 disciples preached "the kindom at hand."

John the Baptist preached "repent and be baptized." Why? Because he was preparing the way for the King so the King would have "that holy nations of priests" to spread "the gospel of the kingdom" to the world. Before Jesus went back to heaven, after his DBR, He gave His disciples the "so called" great commission to preach "the gospel of the kingdom" to all the nations of the world. Had Israel, as a nation, accepted their King, repented and be baptized, then they with the 12 disciples would have been "that holy nation of priests" that would have fulfilled the the promise to Abram back in Genesis 12:1-3.

But, What does history record? That Israel, as a nation, rejected the Trinity. They  rejected God the Father by trying "to establish their own righteousness" (Rms 10:3). Also, they (Israel as a nation) refused to be baptized of John and allowed him to be killed. They rejected God the Son when they demanded that Jesus be crucified. They rejected God the Holy Ghost when they, the leaders, killed (stoned) Stephen in Acts 7.

With the rejection of the Trinity, there is no way that the promise to Abram could be fulfilled through the Jews as a nation. Therefore, after the stoning of Stephen, God set the nation of Israel aside; just as he did the Gentiles back in Genesis 11 at the Tower of Babel.

With the setting aside of Isreal (Rms 11:7-12)  the Jew and Gentile became on equal footing and without distinction. God showed Peter in Acts 10 that the Gentile was no longer to be considered "unclean."

The setting aside of Israel is only temporary. Rms 11:25 says "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (the rapture). "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob" (vs 26).

Vs 32 says: "For God hath concluded them all (Jew and Gentile) in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

How does God "show mercy upon all?" Well Ollie, you posting of Epehesians 2:11-22 tells the whole story.

Ephesians 2:11. " Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12.  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Vss 11 and 12 tell us that the unbelievers were no better off then the Gentiles were in the Old Testament, and had no hope of Isreal's benefits because they were without God.

13.  But NOW in Christ Jesus ye (Gentiles) who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

The Gentiles now have the same closeness to God as the Jews. However, they do not have the same benefits. The Jews have an earthly kingdom and promises to look forward to; while the Gentiles have a heavenly home to look forward to. (See 2Cor5:1 and  Philippians 3:20.)

14.  For he is our peace, who hath made both (Jew and Gentile) one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15.  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity (hostility, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain  (Jew and Gentile) one new man (a new creation), so making peace;

16.  And that he might reconcile both (Jew and Gentile) unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity (hostility) thereby:

17.  And came and preached peace to you which were afar  off(Gentiles), and to them that were nigh (Jews).
18.  For through him we both have access by one Spirit (the Holy Spirit) unto the Father.
19.  Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20.  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

The foundation for Israel and the Body of Christ is Jesus Christ, the chief corner stone.

21.  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22.  In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."

Ollie goes on:
Is not Paul telling the Ephesian gentiles they are fellow citizens with the saints and of the household of God built upon the foundation laid by the prophets and the apostles with Jesus as the chief cornerstone? Is this not telling us the prophets of old led to Jesus with their prophecies? Indicating that the faithful before the law and under the law looked forward to Jesus Christ and His salvation.

These verses also indicate that the commonweallth of Israel and the gentiles are joint heirs to the promises given to those found in the OT. through Jesus Christ. Having been made one through Christ. The binding element being the blood of Jesus Christ and faith in/on Him.

BigD responds:
Israel, under the Law looked forward to an everelasting King to sit upon a everlasting throne here upon the earth (see Romans 15:8). Members of the Body of Christ look forward to our position in heaven.

It is true that Isreal and the Body of Christ each recieve out inheritance through the blood of Christ. The nation of Israel through the Law by FAITH, and the Body of Christ through Grace through FAITH in the Cross work of Christ.

God Bless.
Live Well,  Laugh Often,  Love the Lord!

Reba I totally disagree with you opening remarks.

Maybe I hadn't made myself clear earlier, but I did try to explain that dispensationalism is not a denomination, but a manner in which one studies the Scriptures.

I too use the Scofield Bible. I find many of the footnotes very helpful, but there are several that I am in total disagreement with.

Dr. Scofield was dispensationalist, and was considered an Acts 2 dispensationalists. Meaning that he wrote his footnotes from the position that he believed that the dispensation of grace/the Body of Christ started at Pentecost.

I am an Acts 9/mid-Acts dispensationalist, which means that I believe that the dispensation of grace/body of Christ started after the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7 and the raising up of Saul/Paul in Acts 9

Then there are the Acts 28:28 dispensationalists that believe that the dispensation of grace/Body of Christ started after Paul had received full knowledge of the mystery.

I have even run acorss a few that believe that the dispensation of grace/the body of Christ started in John 20:22, and some at the cross.

What it all boils down to is that dispensationalism doesn't teach anything. It is what some dispensationalists teach. All dispensationalist do not preach or believe the same thing.

IMHO you father was, not doubt,  was an Acts 2 dispensationalist and preached in his AofG Church from the Acts 2 dispensationalists viewpoint. There are many areas in which he and I would possibly agree and some areas where we would diagree.

Reba, isn't is great that our salvation is not based upon all our doctrine being exactly correct. Our salvation is based upon our relationship with Christ.

Even if our doctrines don't always agree, our salvation is always secure. Wrong doctrine could possibly effect our Christian walk which could possibly effect our rewards a the Judgment seat of Christ.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lors!

Reba I totally disagree with you opening remarks.

You state the above as if i said dispy was demonination... I did not

He was a liar a felon an adultar I lived it i know what i was taught i has seen the changes to cover the falsehoods. Playing a word game? Dispensationalsim/despensationallists?

I see i did not make myself clear,  Dad was not a dispy when he died.

Salvation is in Him and Him alone not in us and Him.


 You said you would answer my questions. ?

BigD replies:
Gee Reba, I thought every student of the Bible knew that.

Genesis 12:1-3 "Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make they name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all the familes of the earth be blessed."

That is about as unconditional as you can get.



Reba asked:

BigD answers:
I don't believe I ever said that or implied that. However, I will tell you who will go through the Tribulation.

Answer: All the unsaved of the world that are not taken up at the rapture. Also, the 144,000 sealed Jews that are mentioned in Revelation 7:4-8.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Reba posted:
"Despensationalismn teaches the church  His body..."

BigD responded:
Maybe I hadn't made myself clear earlier, but I did try to explain that dispensationalism is not a denomination, but a manner in which one studies the Scriptures.

Reba replied:
You state the above as if i said dispy was demonination... I did not

BigD come back:
Every  denominational Chruch organization that I have heard of that ends in "ism" is a denomination. Like Calvinism, Pentecostalism, Luthereanism and others. Also, you painted all dispensationalist with the same brush. We are not all the same.
--------------------------------------------------------
BigD posted:
I too use the Scofield Bible. I find many of the footnotes very helpful, but there are several that I am in total disagreement with.

Dr. Scofield was dispensationalist, and was considered an Acts 2 dispensationalists. Meaning that he wrote his footnotes from the position that he believed that the dispensation of grace/the Body of Christ started at Pentecost.

Reba responded:
He was a liar a felon an adultar.

BigD answers:
I know nothing of his personal life.
--------------------------------------------------------
BigD posted:
I am an Acts 9/mid-Acts dispensationalist, which means that I believe that the dispensation of grace/body of Christ started after the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7 and the raising up of Saul/Paul in Acts 9

Then there are the Acts 28:28 dispensationalists that believe that the dispensation of grace/Body of Christ started after Paul had received full knowledge of the mystery.

I have even run acorss a few that believe that the dispensation of grace/the body of Christ started in John 20:22, and some at the cross.

What it all boils down to is that dispensationalism doesn't teach anything. It is what some dispensationalists teach. All dispensationalist do not preach or believe the same thing.

Reba responded:
I lived it i know what i was taught i has seen the changes to cover the falsehoods. Playing a word game? Dispensationalsim/despensationallists?

BigD replies:
Dispensationalsim/despensationallists is not a word game. Both words have different meanings.
----------------------------------------------------------
BigD posted:
IMHO you father was, not doubt,  was an Acts 2 dispensationalist and preached in his AofG Church from the Acts 2 dispensationalists viewpoint. There are many areas in which he and I would possibly agree and some areas where we would diagree.

Reba responded:
I see i did not make myself clear,  Dad was not a dispy when he died.

BigD replies:
Even if you dad was not a dispy when he died, he WAS a dispy at one time, and either way, we still probably would have agreed and disagreed in some ares of what the Bible teaches.
---------------------------------------------------------------
BigD posted:
Reba, isn't is great that our salvation is not based upon all our doctrine being exactly correct. Our salvation is based upon our relationship with Christ.

Reba responded:
Salvation is in Him and Him alone not in us and Him.

BigD replies:
I agree with you statement and stand by mine.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Reba posted:
You said you would answer my questions. ?

BigD responds:
I did.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

A man tells his son.... I will give you a car

that sounds unconditional

the dad goes on and says if you keep your grades up.

opps the condition!

***********************
I do not read Gen 12 as a covenant but even so the condition is in bold even my simple mind can see get out as a condition


Gen 12:1-2
12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
KJV


Gen 17:7

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
KJV

Gen 17:10-11

10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
KJV



Big D i think the only question you did not reply to was something like this   Could man break an unconditional covenant.

As far as the  despensationalist or 'ism'  that  is simply my lack  of word knowledge and its usage nothing more.

The personal lives of a movements leaders or leaders in general should be researched by their followers.   As in the personal lives of Swaggart, Bakker, Hinn, RCC leaders, AA Allan, White, Scott etc. These  things matter.

Reba:
If I would have told one of my sons "I will give you a car," that IS and an unconditional statement. Had I said "I will give you a car if you keep your grades up," then I would have made a conditional covenant,

Had God said to Abram "IFyou will get thee out of they country, THEN I will make thee a great nation..." It would have been conditioned upon Abram obeying God request.

I see "Get thee out" as a request/command/order, and not a condition. When my sons were younger and I told them to take out the garbage, It was not a condition, it was a request/command/order.

Even though I know that Dr. Scofield was responsible for the writing and publishing for his Bible, I was also unaware that he was the head of a movement. My father used a Scofield and he was not involved in any special movement.

The Scofield Bible is my primary study Bible, however, I also use 4 other translations. I do not belong to any special movement. I am a non-denominational independant dispensationalist. The Church I attend is strickly independant and we don't even have an official Chruch membership list. We are a body of like minded believers.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

Big D,
 We disagree BUT talking with you has been pleasent. Thanks

Reba:
THANK YOU for your kind remark. I too did enjoy our dialogue. There is one thing that I believe that we can agree on, and that is that we both study our Bible from a different vantage point.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

And if we want to know who are the "saints" who shall thus be gathered to Him the answer is "Those that have made a covenant with Me by sacrifice or literally Those that have cut My covenant over the sacrifice." The expression "cut" is explained by ancient custom of cutting the slain animals and arranging the pieces so that the covenanting parties could pass through the midst. Such as the covenant with Abraham in Genesis chapter 17 which is a continuation of God's faithfulness which chapter 12 of Genesis is a Promise.

pass through the midst.  In this way they pledged their lives to the fulfilment of the contract and called down the fate of the slain sacrifices on themselves in case of unfaithfulness. But note the expression "My covenant." Ah in that word "MY" lies the safety and blessedness of God's redeemed people for when God made promises to Abraham in which promise are contained the blessings of the gospel to all who are of faith Galations 3:8, Romans IV: 9-25 and ratified the promise by convenant oath He sware by Himself Hebrews VI:13-20 He only , made promise, and pledged Himself to its fulfilment, for on that solemn night when the original unconditional covenant was made with the father of the faithful after the animals were slain and Abraham "divided them in the midst and laid each piece "one Against the other"  a deep sleep came upon him upon him so that he was prevented from making another oath or promise: "And it came to pass that when the sun went down and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces."

The Unconditional covenant of grace is therefore not a contract between two parties as the conditional covenant of the law was but a gracious promise dependent on the faithhfulness of God only for its fulfillment and it is called a "Covenant" for the probable reason that the promise of gospel blessings to man is the outcome of a covenant in the eternal counsels between the Father and the Son in reference to man's redemption.

It is therefore called "HIS COVENANT," and we enter into its gracious contents of blessings over the sacrifice. The true ratification of the covenant was not with the blood of animals. At the original "cutting of the covenant" with Abraham there were indeed animal sacrifices and in connection with the Sinaitic covenant of the law we read that after Moses had spoken every precept to the people "he took the blood of calvs and of goats with water and scarlet wool and hyssop and sprinkled both the book and all the people saying This is the blood of the covenant which God hath enjoined unto you but what were all the Levitical sacrifices but types and shadows of the true Lamb of God.

The Ancient Scriptures For The Modern Jew ....pages 119 and 120 written by David Baron

Such as the covenant with Abraham in Genesis chapter 17 which is a continuation of God's faithfulness which chapter 12 of Genesis is a Promise. Note: this is what i added up above and was not of the original author David Baron.

Michael