The common ideas about hell are so widely accepted (while not critically examined) and leaned upon for the purpose of converting that this post of mine will likely inspire strong reactions, if not violent opposition.

Kasey, be comforted; the idea of hell as a place of forever-and-ever torment is not supported scripturally. It looks like it at first glance when you're looking for this or that scripture to back up a preconceived notion based on pop culture. From the bible studies I've seen and gone through, it seems more plausible that those who (knowing fully who God is) ultimately refuse the gift of God's grace will finally be utterly destroyed, and not tortured forever (and for any who would willingly be without Him, bereft of Joy, destruction would be merciful).

I don't need the threat of torture for God's love to be worth seeking for me, and this idea just doesn't jive with the idea of a loving God. The fact that I'm going to spend eternity in the frying pan otherwise is not the basis of my relationship with Jesus. Those who lean on fear for their faith are afraid to trust in God's love; they think that His love needs to be backed up by fear in order to be effective.

Isaiah 45:23 - By myself I have sworn, from my mouth has gone forth in righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.'  

Romans 14:11 - for it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God."

In a place where there is gnashing of teeth (a sign of belligerent anger), the tongues will not be praising God. So if every tongue shall give praise, then at that time there will be none gnashing teeth!

God is Love. Love without justice is not love; there will be a reckoning, and it will not be pleasant for any of us since we all fall short of the glory of God (though it will probably be an awful lot worse for some than for others). But God has promised us: Isaiah 45:23 - By myself I have sworn, from my mouth has gone forth in righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.'

I, for one, believe Him.

In His love,

-Grace

I have some pretty serious problems with the way that these scriptures are used by some. Here's why:

I volunteered for a crisis line for a number of years. I found that I spent an awful lot of time trying to convince people that they were, in fact, not worthless pieces of dirt. Then some of them would go to church and would be told that they were, and my co-workers and I would try to pick up the pieces. A person who is depressed is particularly prone to engage in mental distortions. One of the big ones is the negative mental filter, where "you pay undue attention to one negative detail instead of seeing the whole picture” (Beck, J.S. Cognitive Therapy. The Guilford Press: New York, 1995). The problem with the Romans Road is that a depressed person (in Canada, where I am, stats show that an alarming 1 in 3 will experience clinical depression in their lifetimes- we live in a wounded world full of wounded people!) filters out the rest of the Gospel message, and hears only what confirms their core beliefs about themselves. For an awful lot of people, the message that they are a worm is an awful lot more understandable, tangible, and therefore real to them than the message that they are unimaginably loved, especially if (as is the case with all too many) the message of parental and community love was not sent, or was partial or flawed, or just didn't get through.

What a terribly damaging and un-Christian message these people are left with!

This is what happened with me, in spite of a secure and loving family. For whatever reason, the message of love never fully got through; it was riddled for me with the message of earning and deserving. It is not right to accept that which you do not deserve; I applied this principle to God's love. Old habits die hard; even now sometimes, when I imagine myself in the palm of His hand, I find myself so riddled with shame that I can’t let Him love me. I didn’t deserve His love, you see; and I believed that while it was OK to give someone a gift that they didn’t deserve, it was wrong to accept that which you do not deserve. [excerpt from my journal- "I am curled up tightly in the palm of His hand, my head covered, my eyes closed tight...but I can feel the warmth of His hand, and I am beginning to let myself enjoy that warmth."]

As I understand it, Romans was written to those who were already pretty well established in the faith (Rom. 1:8-13). Furthermore, in the Christian communities of the time, each new member was mentored intensively in the Christian faith over a period of 1 to 3 years (a tad more intensive than your average Alpha program). Also, before Constantine, because of persecution, Christian communities generally tended to be very closed and protective of themselves; any visitors would be under the sponsorship of a community member who knew them well and knew what they were about. The likelihood of someone slipping by with only a partial understanding of the Gospel was likely much less then. As a pastor friend of mine once said, “If nobody knows who you are, you’re really in a very dangerous place as a Christian.” How very much more true for a person just beginning their Christian journey!

We have a tendency to get complacent and self-righteous sometimes, and it is then that we need the Romans message. Jesus Himself differentiated between groups of people in the way He taught, tailoring His words to where they were at. It was to the Pharisees that he said that to simply get angry was to commit murder. When He addressed the multitude, the poor, He said "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God", even though, chances are, they got angry too, sometimes.

But for the prospective Christian? The use of these scriptures for this purpose is not biblical, and in many cases, not conducive to sharing the Gospel.

In His love,

-Grace

I look forward to hearing

[Justice without love is not justice, and love without justice is not love.]

John wrote:

I am off to work in an isolated area of the Oregon Coast, I don’t know when I will be on line again.

HEY, NOT FAIR!!! What a dirty rotten trick!

And, and isolated area of the Oregon coast? I must confess, I'm jealous! I have a real soft spot for isolated coastal areas.  

Of course, this means that you won't be here to defend yourself!   But I'm sure others will step up to bat.   And I hope you do, all; you make me think things through!

Gods judgment falls upon the wicked, it is not a good thing.

I disagree. It is the wicked who most need God's judgement! As hellish as the experience of God's judgement may be for them, I believe that it is their only hope. Paul wrote (I Cor. 4:21 "What do you wish? Shall I come to you with a rod, or with love in a spirit of gentleness?"; how infinitely more awful will it be for the wicked when God comes with a rod!
BUT: Justice without love is not justice, and love without justice is not love. Just as the most terrible place for the wicked is in God's hands, so is it, even for the wicked, the safest.

John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Yes, and the bible is the finite manifestation of the infinite Word which was with God, and was God. It is created, not the Creator.

Bibliolatry? Is that in the bible?

Not as such. But "idolatry" is; I'm just being a tad more specific.

Was he referring to the whole bible, or just to Revelation?

 

The whole bible.

I haven't had the chance to look into this; I'll have to get back to you...

The bible is so intertwined you can’t add to any part of it without affecting the whole.

Regardless of what Revelation 22:18-19 refers to, I would certainly agree. Note that I'm not talking about adding material to the bible; what I am saying is that far above and beyond the bible, I need God.

Shylynne quoted an “expert” that uses examples of the prophets of old. Using men that came into literal physical contact with God to justify being slain in the spirit. It is not the same thing.

How do you know? And again, what does physically seeing God have to do with it, and what difference would it make in judging the legitimacy or illegitimacy of the experience?

I have met many people that seem to be wise and mature Christian teachers. Stable and sensible, whose lives seem to be giving good fruit. Some are Mormon, some Catholic, some Methodist, some Reformed, some SDA, SBC, ETC.
All of these people can’t know the gospel. All can’t be saved.

This, too, is up for God to decide. Does any denomination or group consist exclusively of the saved? I don't think so. Neither would I assume that any group of people consists exclusively of the unsaved; with God, anything is possible.

I am surprised if your friend is a true scholar that he hasn’t made the connection between falling backward and being under Gods judgment.
Actually I am not that surprised there are many intense scholars in all those denominations I mentioned and none of them really agree with each other.

And in a bunch of denominations that you haven't named.
And given this fact, we should all beware of believing that because a scholar disagrees with us, they are wrong.

I do hope that you get the opportunity to go online and defend your points soon,

In His love,

-Grace

And, Lord, for giving us life - I mean real life!!!

And Truth, Lord, saving Truth!

Since Love is Lord of heaven and earth
How can I keep from singing?

In His love,

-Grace

Re. the truth hurting:

Rom.7:22,23  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

I am made in God's image, and yet (Rom. 7:18) "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing". We are of a dual nature; spirit and flesh, as Paul puts it. The latter part of the truth does hurt! It should, and it needs to; pain is what tells us that something is wrong, that something has to change.

When you have someone who is numb to and oblivious to the need to change their lives, the Romans Road might work, though personally I have observed that people embrace the faith much more easily when someone plants the seed and they become convicted themselves, than when I convict them. However, when you have someone before you who comes in pain already, knows that something is terribly wrong with life as they've been living it and is ready to change their life (That was the question that was asked of a person seeking to become a member of an early Christian community- Are you ready to change your life?), then I just don't believe that Jesus would have us begin with what an awful sinner they are. I am not sitting in judgment over the scripture, but over the formulaic and impersonal way in which it is sometimes used. As I pointed out in my post, Jesus did not speak the same words in the same way to each person he met; he responded to people as they were, where they were, in ways that changed profoundly those who had ears to hear.

I hope this helps to clarify,

In His love,

-Grace

[My dear Lord in Heaven, and on earth, and everywhere, everytime, my all,Guide me today; Fill me with joy in all that I do, in bliss and in suffering, for I am no more or less Yours, and in Your hands, at any instant of the day than in another, in any place than in another.My heart is drawn to you, my will is drawn to you, my all is drawn to you, in every instant and in every place and in every state of mind.You are constant. Help me to be constant to you.]

Hi Gilligan,

If this is for you, please know that you are not alone, and that there is hope; it is not forever. I speak from personal experience; I've been there. If it is for another, and if you can, please pass this on!

This is for anyone who suffers from depression, or knows someone who does.

Ebia is right; the depressed person should see a doctor as soon as is possible. So is NateyCakes; it is God's work in my life that has brought me healing, and that continues to heal and comfort me.

By the time you've been depressed for any amount of time at all, the problem is both physical and psychological/ spiritual. Our emotions are very chemical, and our chemicals are very emotional. A disturbance in one feeds into the other, which feeds back into the first; this process, left undisturbed, is a vicious downward spiral.

The answer, except in the case of mild transient depression, does not lie in pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps. Depression defies willpower; I have willpower galore, and in that state it didn't do me a stitch of good. Nor is it about being weak. It is, as best as I can describe it, about pain. You know how physical pain drains your energy and robs you of vitality, clear-mindedness, optimism, etc.? Well, depression does the same thing. And let me tell you- I'll take physical pain anytime to the awfulness of that pain.

Dealing with it on your own isn't the answer. Depressed person needs the support and love of those around them. They need to find the source of the problem, be it chemical, or psychological, or spiritual. With and through the support of their family, community and if possible a good Christian counselor or therapist, they need to let God in to bring healing and wholeness to those places in their hearts that need it.
All things work for good for those who trust in God, even when those things in and of themselves are terrible; dealing with depression has taught me day-to-day reliance on God's grace. It has taught me to lay aside my willpower and to surrender; not to depression, but to Him. It has even taught me to suffer with joy, because my suffering is His suffering and His joy is my joy. And by His grace, I have come out the other side.

Psalms 23:4 - Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

There's a song that has gotten me through some dark times:

I Will Praise Him Still- by Margee Days

When the morning falls on the farthest hill
I will sing His name, I will praise Him still.

When the dark trials come, and my heart is filled
With the weight of doubt, I will praise Him still.

For the Lord our God, He is strong to save,
From the arms of death, from the deepest grave,

And He gave His life in His perfect will,
And by His good grace, I will praise Him still.

___________________________________________

Something else that has helped me:

My dear Lord in Heaven, and on earth, and everywhere, everytime, my all,

Guide me today; Fill me with joy in all that I do, in bliss and in suffering, for I am no more or less Yours, and in Your hands, at any instant of the day than in another, in any place than in another.

My heart is drawn to you, my will is drawn to you, my all is drawn to you, in every instant and in every place and in every state of mind.

You are constant. Help me to be constant to you.

Even if you are feeling too lost to be drawn to Him, speak the words. It is not a lie, then, but a statement of desire or intention. Sometimes, when I couldn't even bring myself to desire His presence anymore, I have had to settle for desiring to desire His presence. Even, a few times, for desiring to desire to desire His presence. I kid you not. And you know what? He'll work with that; He loves you!

In His love,

-Grace

Left Coast,

Are you saying that being in Satan's power is the same as being in God's judgement? I'm a tad confused.

And besides, you speak as if God's judgement is ultimately a bad thing to be under, as if God didn't love us unconditionally!

In fact these things happened as the bible was being written. The bible is now finished. There is no need to add anything more. God has given us His book to trust. Unfortunately many people feel they need more than the bible. And so they look for signs and wonders. When the bible was finished it was sealed.

I need more than the bible, Left Coast; I need my Lord and my God. To say that I need only the bible is a form of idolatry known as bibliolatry.

Revelation 22:18  For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Revelation 22:19  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Was he referring to the whole bible, or just to Revelation?

Quote:
Notice with me, though, the reactions of some of the greatest men in the Bible when they came into the Presence of the Lord.
A key statement, “ came into the Presence of the Lord.”
When you were slain in the spirit did you physically see God?
I don’t think so.

And this is relevant how?...

I tend to be wary of the slain-in-the-spirit phenomenon. I think that it is often of the flesh. Probably it is most often a combination of fleshly and Spiritual influence; when the infinite interacts with the finite, the finite remains finite, and is not necessarily free of such forces as the desire to fit in, desire to influence others, the pumping of adrenaline and all kinds of other nice brain chemicals, etc. It can easily lead to idolatry; wise Pentecostal teachers will tell you to seek the Baptizer, and not the baptism.
I know several people well who have had the experience (I have never witnessed either of them having such an experience; neither of them has had any such experience in many years now). They are wise and mature Christian teachers, and stable and sensible people to boot, the fruits of whose lives are good. The fruits of their experiences of being slain in the spirit were also good; one of them described to me, for example, how the experience sparked in him a hunger to read God's word such as he had never experienced before, even though (as a scholar with a Ph.D. in theology) he certainly was well-acquainted with his bible. I cannot write the phenomenon off as demonic.

In His love,

-Grace

I don't mean to clamor for attention here, but this is an important issue to me, and for me.

Anyone???

In His love,

-Grace.

Paul2,

Wow. Thank-you.

Haven't seen it yet; hope to soon.

In His love,

-Grace

Michael_Lenga wrote

What new age psychology book did you get this junk from?

Chew it up and spit out the bones!

On one hand, I do argue with some of these much the way Gracie does;

On the other hand, it is truly amazing the way these things can remind us of things we already know. And even more amazing how much we all sometimes need to be reminded of things we already know!  

And let's, why don't we, try to express our differences of opinion in a way that is loving and respectful of each other, even if we have no respect for the opinion!

In His love,

-Grace

I wrote this a few months after becoming a Christian:

We all have a pretty solid idea that, in the real world, love is not enough. Yeah, sure, “Love conquers all”, “All you need is love”, “Love makes the world go ‘round” and all that nice kind of stuff is all very nice, and it’s nice to think in these terms, but let’s get real here. As nice as love is, it doesn’t really change everything and fix everything. We can’t trust it to answer all our problems. We need practical solutions.
   But what if it could? What if, somehow, it was a practical solution? Humor me here for a minute. What would that kind of love look like? It couldn’t be on the same magnitude as the love in most of our relationships, or even be of the same type; many of them seem to cause far more heartbreak and trouble than they help.
   Those loves are imperfect; it would have to be a perfect love that could change the world, and us. And with all the crap that’s in the world and in us, it would have to be unconditional, or it would never permit itself to reach us. It would have to be like the love that a parent has for their child, except infinitely deeper and infinitely more perfect and true and consistent.
   Can such a love exist as more than a nice abstraction? I’ve been learning things, looking at some things in a different way, and actually even having experiences that are leading me to believe that it just might.  I can’t prove to you that is exists, any more than you can prove to me that it doesn’t. But I can share what experiences I’ve had, if it would help.
   God as I understood Him growing up was always either no help (too distant and uninvolved), or made me feel worse (guilt and shame for my inadequacies). That God loved me was a nice abstraction, but was of little comfort and certainly wasn’t life-changing. That He really would and could love with a love that was perfect and unconditional and personal did not even cross my mind.
   I’ve only just begun to know God as the giver of perfect, unconditional love, and my life has already changed so much, and every bit for the better. I used to loathe myself, and now for the first time in a very long time, I feel as though I am a worthwhile human being, and a good person, and a loveable person. The constant weight of never-good-enough has been replaced with a happiness I never dreamed I could ever have. Rather than doing what’s right out of a sense of obligation and guilt, I’m finding myself doing it out of joy, as if it is the most natural thing in the world. I’m also no longer doing things to try to prove my worth, or to not be a complete waste of oxygen, like I was trying to before, but simply out of love. And my performance hasn’t deteriorated; I’m far more able to be the person I want to be than before. Far from perfect; I have a long way to go. But my heavy heart gets lighter and lighter the more God’s love works in it. And it has been a practical solution for me, far more effective than anything ever before.
   Maybe love doesn’t cut the mustard in coping with reality, but my experience has been that nothing else but love does. Who knows; you may find the same.

blackeyedpeas wrote:

If we took your perspective, mankind would not need a Saviour, but we all know that man is in desperate need of a Saviour.

If you understand this to be my position, then I did a terrible job of communicating my position to you. I was living death, and by the grace of God I have been given new life!
  Please, please, PLEASE tell me how what I've said implies that we don't need the Savior.

blackeyedpeas wrote:

In matchless LOVE and GRACE, Almighty God sent Jesus Christ to rescue us and help us escape our misery in the loving arms of our Lord and Saviour. This PRECIOUS and GLORIOUS TRUTH has rescued and saved untold multitudes from their suffering and misery. This truth doesn't hurt - THIS TRUTH SAVES!

AMEN,AMEN,AMEN!!!!
The problem is that this truth only saves if it is heard. We desire to share the Good News, but what I'm saying is that the way in which we are trying to do so is not in line with biblical example, and as a result, there are many who are hearing just more bad news that only hurts in an unhealing way instead of the Good News. Rom 10:17 "So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ." Doesn't it make sense to preach the Good News in such a way as that it will be heard?

Our Creator, Almighty God, knows ALL about our horrible condition and what causes it.

Amen! He is our fellow sufferer. The pain I feel from living in a wounded world He feels, and more than that He feels all of my pain even more fully than I, that I'm afraid to feel, that I run from feeling, that I numb myself from feeling, that I lack the trust in Him to allow myself to feel. Our Lord is not only omniscient and omnipotent, but (as a wise friend of mine put it) omnipathic.

blackeyedpeas wrote:

I might possibly understand your human perspective, but you disagree with God's perspective, the pure and simple Gospel of God's Grace.

Again, please, please, PLEASE tell me how what I have said goes against the Gospel of God's grace!!! I just don't see that at all.
As for my human perspective, what is it that you believe God's perspective to be? If it is that a price had to be paid in order to satisfy God's justice, and because we couldn't pay it Jesus stepped forward and paid it for us (as many believe), then I don't think that this perspective is any less human than mine. It certainly isn't biblical.

Sower wrote:

I don't see how you arrived at this conclusion by reading the Gospel as presented by Crusader.  I did not see the word "worm" in that post.

When I said "worm", I was referring to "worm theology", that theology which promotes the idea that we are awful and worthless through and through. This is a misunderstanding, in my view, of such passages as (Rom. 7:18) "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing" (italics added). It is in my flesh that no good thing dwells, but the spirit is a different matter; Rom.7:22 “For I delight in the law of God after the inward man”. Paul is not referring here to material vs. immaterial, but to that part of us that has sold out to and is ensnared by sin (the flesh) versus that in us which is in His image, that part of me which is the "me" that God created me to be, that part of me that seeks and longs for God. In Genesis 1:31, “God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.” We have a dual nature; we have two laws in our members.

Sower wrote:

You seem to be suggesting that the sinners spiritual condition before God should not be presented to him/her lest they be offended or go into "clinical depression". That is pure humanism.

Actually, what I'm saying is that to emphasize the sinner's spiritual condition before God is especially destructive to someone who is experiencing clinical depression.
Further, I am saying that Paul didn't write Romans to prospective converts; he wrote it to established Christians for a very different purpose than to share with them for the first time the Good News. Contrary to popular belief, the Romans Road is not conducive to a non-Christian's recieving of the Good News. We are NOT following Paul's example when we take a prospective Christian down the Romans Road.

There will be more, but it is well past my bedtime now, and it is going to be an early morning.

In His love,

-Grace

Hello all,
Sorry it has taken a while to respond on this; I've been storm-stayed away from home for a few days.
If you'll bear with me, I cannot respond to all of this at once; it will take more time and energy than I have tonight.
I will try to address what you have all said over the next few days.

Blackeyedpeas,
Don't worry, I don't feel ganged-up-on; I feel challenged to think more deeply, to re-examine my theological beliefs and suppositions and modify them where, and to communicate my ideas more clearly.   Don't stop!

Sower, I am distressed at the idea that

unless a person sees himself/herself as a sinner on their way to Hell, the Gospel has absolutely no significance.

If my relationship with Jesus is based solely on my fear of going to Hell, I think that I've missed the point of the Good News. The Good News is not that I can avoid the eternal frying pan if I accept Jesus; that's not good news, that's a threat.

The Good News, to me, is that there is a different way of living; a way of living that is so full, so meaningful, so good as to show all other ways of life for what they really are: Death. The Good News, to me, is that "Love conquers all" is not an empty nicety. The Good News is that God is, and that God is Love. The Good News is that the Man of Sorrows is also the Man of the Joy of the Presence of God, and that as I learn to share in His sorrows, I also learn to share in His joy. The Good News is that I can be free of Sin, free of all of those things that I have been bound to by fear, free of having to secure myself my way, at the expense of others. The Good News is that God has done, and is doing in me, that which will make me fully the person He created and intended for me to be, and the person my heart of hearts so desires to be.

Not yet satisfied with what else I've written in response so far; there'll be more when I've had time to pray and think about it more.

Goodnight, and God bless,

-Grace

Sin is disobedience to the laws of the one and only God.

---YES!!! And beyond that. Our disobedience is also the symptom of another meaning of sin- separation from God, that springs from our doubt and distrust of Him. Which usually comes, in turn, from our lack of understanding of who He is.

The consequences of sin are various and serious. First of all sin wrecks our lives in so many ways. And it is also evident that sin has a powerful hold over all of us. So often we find it hard to give up behavior that we know is bad for both us and others.

---YES!!! Oh yeah, you can say that again! And how it sorrows the One who loves us to see us hurting ourselves and others!

But sin has another serious consequence, and that is the judgment of God. God is perfect and just, and cannot and will not tolerate sin. He has declared that one day He will judge human beings for their behavior. On that day everyone who has not been saved must face God's judgment (Hebrews 9:27). And that judgment is to be feared. He has the power to cast the unbelievers into Hell.

---OOO, careful! The proper fear of God is one that draws us to Him in awe, on our knees, convinced (convicted) of our sins, in repentance, and in adoring worship, not one that drives us from Him in terror, or forces us into His presence under threat of punishment.
Regarding God’s justice: You know how when you type a paragraph in a Word program on the computer, you can highlight it and hit "Justify", and it straightens everything up, makes it even for you? Well, from what I understand, this meaning of "justice" comes closer to the original Hebraic meaning than the much more modern notion of crime and punishment. It has more to do with making things right (which is the ultimate aim of our crime-and-punishment system, isn't it? Too bad it so rarely succeeds). I believe that God will do whatever He must to convert us, to make us whole, to make us wholly of Him as we were created to be; and might I add that I expect that for most of us (and far more so for some than others), God’s making-right will be an extremely difficult and painful process. I firmly believe, though, that while suffering for our wrongs is sometimes cited as something that has to happen as part of our healing and being-made-whole process, I believe that the overall counsel of the scriptures about the nature of God and His intentions toward us points squarely to the theory that God's interest is in restoring us to Him and not in making sure that we suffer for the suffering we've caused. He does not tolerate our sin because He loves us too much to leave us as we are.
   Some of us may not submit to this restoration, and God will not force us. But there will be plenty to discuss here as it is without getting into a discussion of how these are dealt with; let’s put that on hold for the time being, and tackle that hot topic in the debate section sometime.

But the good news is that God cares about us. He would rather bring us to Heaven than send us to Hell. The Bible tells us that "God demonstrates his own love to us in this: while we were still sinners Christ died for us" (Romans 5:, and "God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16).

---Yes!!! AMEN!!!!!!!

While humanity was totally bound up in its sin, God acted, and He acted in a most amazing way. God came to earth Himself in the form of His Son, Jesus Christ, 2000 years ago, an event we celebrate at Christmas (Matthew 1:18-25; Luke 2:1-20; John 1:1-18). This Jesus lived a perfect life. He is the one exception to the fact, mentioned above, that "all have sinned". He also died a sacrificial death, nailed to a wooden cross, eventually triumphing over sin and death by literally rising from the dead (Luke 23:26- 24:49; John 19:16- 21:24).

---Yes!!! AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!!!!!

It is Christ's death that makes it possible for sin to be forgiven, for He bore the punishment for our sin.

---No!!! Re. His bearing the punishment: I disagree. Please refer to the new topic that I posted under theology à apologetics à Penal Substitutionary theory of atonement

It is also His resurrection and His living presence in this world through His Holy Spirit that makes the fight against sin a realistic possibility. It is His sinless life, death and resurrection that make it possible for us to reach Heaven. This is the Gospel.

---Yes!!! AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!!!!!

But how can you benefit from that Gospel? It is most important that you first recognize that you are sinful, and don't deserve this perfect God's interest in you.

---No!!! Back to my previous point about the Romans Road. God made us in His image, and He looked at what He had made, and it was good. (Genesis 1:27-31). Deserving has nothing to do with it. We are His children, we are of inestimable worth to Him, and He loves us!

You must also realize that you cannot earn His forgiveness. It does not matter how hard you try, you cannot work you way to Heaven. Salvation from sin is free. It is a gift. You are powerless to save yourself. That is something God alone can do.

---Yes!!! AMEN!

You should then ask God to forgive and save you. This prayer does not need to be in a set form, but it does need to be your heartfelt desire for God's forgiveness and help. God will listen to the prayer of those who seek Him (Romans 10:13). You should throw yourself upon His mercy, and tell Him that you desire a new life and freedom from sin. In other words, you should repent. That is, you should recognise the purity of God, be sorry for your sins, and desire to be forgiven.

---Yes!!! Amen!!! I must interject with this though; experience the purity of God, and you’ll find that being sorry for your sins and desiring forgiveness will happen pretty spontaneously. If you don’t believe me, ask Job! I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. 6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes. (Job 42: 5-6)

And of course you must believe this Gospel. Actually, you must believe in the person Jesus Christ, the Son of God, as your personal Savior. You must believe in his sacrificial death, that when He died on the cross, He shed His blood specifically for you, He died personally for you, He died the death you deserved to die.

---Again, deserving don’t enter into it!!! PSTA!

"Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved" (Acts 16:31).

Once you pray this prayer, you have eternal life at that very moment. You are guaranteed a place with Jesus in heaven. And nothing you can do – or fail to do- can change your eternal status with Jesus.

Romans 8:
38  For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39  nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

-Amen!!!

In His love,

-Grace

I must say, Crusader, I had mixed feelings as I read this. I found myself alternately saying “YES!!!” and “NO!!!”

Crusader wrote:
The word Gospel literally means "good news" and in this case it is the good news about Jesus Christ. But this good news begins with some very bad news. The bad news is sin and its consequences.

---NO!!! I volunteered for a crisis line for a number of years. I found that I spent an awful lot of time trying to convince people that they were, in fact, not worthless pieces of dirt. Then some of them would go to church and would be told that they were, and my co-workers and I would try to pick up the pieces. A person who is depressed is particularly prone to engage in mental distortions. One of the big ones is the negative mental filter, where "you pay undue attention to one negative detail instead of seeing the whole picture” (Beck, J.S. Cognitive Therapy. The Guilford Press: New York, 1995). The problem with the Romans Road is that a depressed person (in Canada, where I am, stats show that an alarming 1 in 3 will experience clinical depression in their lifetimes) filters out the rest of the Gospel message, and hears only what confirms their core beliefs about themselves. For an awful lot of people, the message that they are a worm is an awful lot more understandable, tangible, and therefore real to them than the message that they are unimaginably loved, especially if (as is the case with all too many) the message of parental and community love was not sent, or was partial or flawed, or just didn't get through.
 
What a terribly damaging and un-Christian message these people are left with!
 
This is what happened with me, in spite of a secure and loving family. For whatever reason, the message of love never fully got through; it was riddled for me with the message of earning and deserving. It is not right to accept that which you do not deserve; I applied this principle to God's love. Old habits die hard; even now sometimes, when I imagine myself in the palm of His hand, I find myself so riddled with shame that I can’t let Him love me. I didn’t deserve His love, you see; and I believed that while it was OK to give someone a gift that they didn’t deserve, it was wrong to accept that which you do not deserve. [excerpt from my journal- "I am curled up tightly in the palm of His hand, my head covered, my eyes closed tight...but I can feel the warmth of His hand, and I am beginning to let myself enjoy that warmth."]
 
As I understand it, Romans was written to those who were already pretty well established in the faith (Rom. 1:8-13). Furthermore, in the Christian communities of the time, each new member was mentored intensively in the Christian faith over a period of 1 to 3 years (a tad more intensive than your average Alpha program). Also, before Constantine, because of persecution, Christian communities generally tended to be very closed and protective of themselves; any visitors would be under the sponsorship of a community member who knew them well and knew what they were about. The likelihood of someone slipping by with only a partial understanding of the Gospel was likely much less then. As a pastor friend of mine once said, “If nobody knows who you are, you’re really in a very dangerous place as a Christian.” How very much more true for a person just beginning their Christian journey!
 
We have a tendency to get complacent and self-righteous sometimes, and it is then that we need the Romans message. Jesus Himself differentiated between groups of people in the way He taught, tailoring His words to where they were at. It was to the Pharisees that he said that to simply get angry was to commit murder. When He addressed the multitude, the poor, He said "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God", even though, chances are, they got angry too, sometimes.

Sorry, this is a long one! More in the next post.