Water Baptism Today - Get's Old, Huh?

[AVBunyan]

If you want to pick one confusing doctrine today it is water baptism and yet it should be one of the simplest of doctrines. And yet more time has been spend on this subject than there ever should have been (just look at all the posts!!!). There are 2 schools of thought:

1. It is essential to salvation – don’t want to argue this – it is not…period!  Seen all the verses, have had then quoted to me out of context for so long I just want to scream!

2. It is not essential to ones salvation but we are to do it because:

a. It is a picture of the death, burial, and resurrection – sounds good but there is no scripture to support this fine sounding phrase.  You say, “It is an outward sign of an inward reality.”  Really?  Where did you get that?  Chapter and verse?  Sounds good but you can’t make a doctrine out of a catchy phrase.
b. It is the first step of obedience - sounds good but there is no scripture to support this fine sounding phrase.
c. It proves or demonstrates one’s salvation - sounds good but there is no scripture to support this fine sounding phrase.
d. Many saints in the Bible baptized so we should – sounds good but many saints did things in the Bible that we don’t do anymore.  We don’t sacrifice lambs, we don’t raise people from the dead, we don’t take vows, we don’t abstain from pork, etc.  Yes, things change and I’m glad they do!!!
e. The Lord Jesus Christ commanded it in Matt. 28:19,20 – yes he did but also told you to observe all things whatsoever He had commanded and one of the things he commanded was to adhere to what the Pharisees taught and they taught the law - Matt. 23:3 – “All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe.”  They taught the law and I know you believe you are not to adhere to the Old Testament law (well some of you do). (Similar to “d.)  

First summary – all that we have been taught and practice concerning baptism has been based upon tradition and making doctrines out of poor applications.  Because of these errors we have people going to hell on Acts 2:38, etc. and others trying to obey the “first step of obedience” and if they don’t they are made to fill like second class citizens by Baptist Churches.

What I am going to present I already know most of you will not believe for a couple of reasons:

1. You want to insist on going to hell with your water baptism and nothing is going to change that!

2. You just cannot give up your tradition that has been passed down for centuries.  You have made a doctrine out of a tradition.

Now this is what I believe baptism was for in the Bible.  I will only discuss the word baptism as it relates to water for just because you see the word baptize it doesn’t mean it is associated with water all the time.  Now the Church of Christ can’t see that for all they see is water, water and more water every time the word shows up in any form.  For example - look at I Cor. 10:2 and Col. 2:12 and try to find water baptism there.

The first time water baptism shows up is with John the Baptist.  Now why did John baptize?  Let’s let him tell us.

John 1:31  And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

Look at “therefore” – why is the “therefore” there?  The issue was manifesting Christ to Israel.  Christ was being manifesting to Israel for the first time.  John the Baptist said (paraphrasing), “Here is your Messiah!  Do you believe this” Ok, then get baptized.“  Why get baptized?  To show that you believe Christ was Israel’s long awaited for Messiah.  And along with that they were to show their repentance in regards to their rejection of God the Father in the Old Testament.  Manifestation and repentance - It is that simple.  And yet this simple doctrine meant for God’s dealing with Israel has turned into a monster.

Do you know why they continued to baptize during Acts?  Because the Jews rejected Christ in the gospels and were getting a second chance in Acts.  The Gentiles were in on it because they were getting in on Israel’s blessings at that time.  Once Israel finally rejected the message in Acts 28 then there was no need to call everyone’s attention to Jesus being the Messiah for that plan was done away with and Paul was called out by God to reveal the body of Christ.

The issue of showing Christ being the Messiah is a non issue today for we have advanced revelation on the matter due to the New Testament being finally written down – plus God is not dealing with Israel right now (I know, a broken record) – So………..baptism is a non issue today.  There is only one baptism and that is the one baptism of Ephesians 4 and that has nothing to do with water!

Again, if you start with Paul you will get it – you can’t start with John the Baptist and carry a practice meant for Israel all the way through the church age!  You see how simple the scriptures are?  You know, Christianity is full of a lot of “junk” today that has nothing to do with Bible Christianity.  We are not Rome – we don’t need all of those outward ceremonies.

Conclusion – If you want to baptize then fine – I don’t panic over people making baptism a picture of salvation, etc.  You make it essential to salvation and we will go to war over that.  But to use it as a picture then I’m not going to make an issue out of it – that is between your church and God – I believe in local self-governing churches.

Wouldn’t it be so much easier to stick with Ephesians 4?  Look at what a stumbling block this doctrine has caused.  Look at how much money has been spent on baptismal fountains!!!  Could you imagine a Baptist church not being able to count their “baptisms” to be able to send them to the Sword of the Lord!  Just kidding.  I am a Baptist so I can pick on my own thank you.  

May God bless

[_Christopher_]

Hello AVBunyan-

Thank you for your thoughts on the necessity of baptism.

Personally I feel that Jesus mandated it as one of the Sacraments that we need to be saved.

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" - Matthew 28:19

It sounds like you believe that baptism is an invention of tradition over the years, but Christians have always interpreted the Bible literally when it declares, "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12).

Thus the early Church Fathers wrote in the Nicene Creed (A.D. 381), "We believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."

[Brother Love]

Another Good message AVBunyan

Only "ONE" Baptism today in this age of Gods Grace (Ephesians 4:5) Now Read 1 Corinthians 12:13, this is the "ONE" Baptism "NO WATER"

Brother Love

   <))><

[_Christopher_]

Another Good message AVBunyan

Only "ONE" Baptism today in this age of Gods Grace (Ephesians 4:5) Now Read 1 Corinthians 12:13, this is the "ONE" Baptism "NO WATER"

Brother Love

   <))><

1 Corinthians 12:13

For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit.

Yes, it is the Holy Spirit that accomplishes our rebirth, not water itself.  I don't think anyone believes that water itself does anything.  But that doesn't mean that water isn't validly used in the Sacrament.  

[Shylynne]

Wouldn’t it be so much easier to stick with the whole gospel?
It only gets old when you lose your first love.

[Brother Love]

Wouldn’t it be so much easier to stick with the whole gospel?
It only gets old when you lose your first love.

Which Gospel?

Shylynne, please tell us.

Brother Love

[_Christopher_]

Wouldn’t it be so much easier to stick with the whole gospel?
It only gets old when you lose your first love.

Which Gospel?

Shylynne, please tell us.

Brother Love

Take your pick: Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John

[AVBunyan]

Wouldn’t it be so much easier to stick with the whole gospel?
It only gets old when you lose your first love.

Which Gospel?

Shylynne, please tell us.

Brother Love

Good question Brother Love - I think I will stick around to see an answer form ShyLynne on this one.

Also, Shylynne would you be so kind as to explain:
"It only gets old when you lose your first love."

Thank you so much!

Ya'll have a nice day now!  

[Allinall]

Wouldn’t it be so much easier to stick with the whole gospel?
It only gets old when you lose your first love.

Which Gospel?

Shylynne, please tell us.

Brother Love

Good question Brother Love - I think I will stick around to see an answer form ShyLynne on this one.

Also, Shylynne would you be so kind as to explain:
"It only gets old when you lose your first love."

Thank you so much!

Ya'll have a nice day now!  

I'll field this one Shylynne if you don't mind.  And of course, feel free to respond!  Not to mean I'm speaking for you...

But I will say this with as much intensity as I can possibly muster:  THE GOSPEL[/b].  ONE GOSPEL[/b].  Paul and the disciples preached the same gospel.  Christ is not divided.  To continue in presenting Paul's gospel as another gospel, or the true gospel apart from that taught and delivered by Peter, and even Jesus Himself is to divide Christ.  It is elavate Paul and lower Christ.  And I for one, am getting tired of this devisive, disrespectful, and heretical teaching of the Gospel of my Lord Jesus Christ.  

[AVBunyan]

It is elavate Paul and lower Christ.  And I for one, am getting tired of this devisive, disrespectful, and heretical teaching of the Gospel of my Lord Jesus Christ.  

Three questions for anybody:

1. What specifically is the "Gospel of my Lord Jesus Christ"?

2. Do you attempt to follow everthing Jesus taught in the gospels?

3. According to:
Rom 2:16  In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 16:25  Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel,

2 Tim 2:8  Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

Gal 1:8  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Paul is pretty serious about his gospel. Paul had a gospel.

So, the question is: Define Paul's gospel from the scriptures.

Thank you

Ya'll have a nice day now!  

[AJ]

Followers of Paul get old too

[I_Believe]

Now I beg you, brothers, through the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfected together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been reported to me concerning you, my brothers, by those who are from Chloe's household, that there are contentions among you. Now I mean this, that each one of you says, "I follow Paul," "I follow Apollos," "I follow Cephas," and, "I follow Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized into the name of Paul? (1Co 1:10-13)

For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," aren't you fleshly? Who then is Apollos, and who is Paul, but servants through whom you believed; and each as the Lord gave to him? I planted. Apollos watered. But God gave the increase. So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. Now he who plants and he who waters are the same, but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. (1Co 3:4-8)

For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, "He has taken the wise in their craftiness." And again, "The Lord knows the reasoning of the wise, that it is worthless." Therefore let no one boast in men. For all things are yours, whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come. All are yours, and you are Christ's, and Christ is God's. (1Co 3:19-23)

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. (Rom 1:16)

But, brothers, I wrote to you boldly, as reminding you in part, because of the grace that is given to me by God, that I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the nations, ministering the gospel of God, so that the offering up of the nations might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Spirit. Therefore I have boasting in Christ Jesus as to the things pertaining to God. For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ did not work out by me for the obedience of the nations in word and deed, in power of miracles and wonders, in power of the Spirit of God, so that from Jerusalem, and all around to Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. (Rom 15:15-19)

[Allinall]

Three questions for anybody:

1. What specifically is the "Gospel of my Lord Jesus Christ"?

That God came to man in the form of man, as the man Jesus Christ, for man, as the substitutionary atonement, was dead, buried, and risen again on the third day, and lives today for our justification.  Scriptures?  Try the whole book.

2. Do you attempt to follow everthing Jesus taught in the gospels?

In obedience yes.  For grace beyond what He showed on and after the cross, no.  Noting here, of course, that the Gospels are accounts of the Gospel - Christ's death, burial and resurrection for payment of our sin debt.

3. According to:
Rom 2:16  In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 16:25  Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel,

2 Tim 2:8  Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

Gal 1:8  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Paul is pretty serious about his gospel. Paul had a gospel.

So, the question is: Define Paul's gospel from the scriptures.

You make greater what Paul simply personalized.  In each passage you've listed, Paul expresses that that Gospel is Christ's.  As for the concept of Peter and Paul preaching differing Gospels...

Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me. I went up because of a revelation and set before them (though privately before those who seemed influential) the gospel that I proclaim among the Gentiles, in order to make sure I was not running or had not run in vain.  But even Titus, who was with me, was not forced to be circumcised, though he was a Greek. Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in--who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery-- to them we did not yield in submission even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you. And from those who seemed to be influential (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)--those, I say, who seemed influential added nothing to me. On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles), and when James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.  Only, they asked us to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.

Galatians 2:1-10

Peter and Paul were given different mission fields, not different Gospels.  I've read what you've posted concerning the two, and have before shown the error in that teaching.  But for additional information...

If there are two differing Gospels, then there are two methods for salvation; one for the Jew, and another for the Gentile, both of whom are members of the same Body.  However, Paul states...

For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.  And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.


Galatians 3:27-29

There is no other Gospel.  Christ is not divided.  And you teach in error.  You would be wise to stop.

[AVBunyan]

There is no other Gospel.  Christ is not divided.  And you teach in error.  You would be wise to stop.

Friend, I was trying to be gracious in asking my questions in order to bring out a point and you responded with:

"And you teach in error.  You would be wise to stop "

You don't know what I believe - you are assuming something about me you know not what you speak of - but I understand, I'm not upset - but I can see we will get no where here.  

Have a nice day.  

[Nickolai]

Didache Chapter 7 "And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before."

This is one of the Writings from the Early Church.  Dates back to the late first early second century.  It seems that the Church always thought that water baptism was needed.