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Author Topic: Reformation vs. Transformation  (Read 1338 times)
AVBunyan
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« on: April 09, 2004, 08:28:21 AM »

I think people are confusing transformation with reformation.

Reformation - 1.  The act of reforming; correction or amendment of life, manners, or of any thing vicious or corrupt; as the reformation of manners; reformation of the age; reformation of abuses.

Transformation - The act or operation of changing the form or external appearance.
1.  Metamorphosis; change of form in insects; as from a caterpillar to a butterfly.
2.  Transmutation; the change of one metal into another, as of copper or tin into gold.
3.  The change of the soul into a divine substance, as among the mystics.
4.  Transubstantiation.
5.  In theology, a change of heart in man, by which his disposition and temper are conformed to the divine image; a change from enmity to holiness and love.

Reformation – when one is moved to become a “Christian” to act like a “Christian” to follow Christ’s teachings.  When one reforms he, by his own power, decides to live a better live with the Bible as his guide.  He believes, has faith, and determination to live a better life in order to be a good Christian.  The above is not salvation.  If all the person did was get under “conviction’ or was “tired of living the life he was living” and decided to make reform of his ways then salvation most likely never took place.

Transformation – though not a “Bible” word the principle according to the definition is.  Note definition #2 and #3 – these two coupled with the Bible words, regeneration, justification, sanctification, etc. along with 2 Cor 5:17  (Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new) describes some of what takes place at real salvation.

Reformation – a person decides to quit drinking, joins AA and cleans up his act.  Is this a good and commendable thing?  Yes, but there is no real transformation only reformation.

Transformation – a sinner becomes a “new creature” in Christ.  The sinner who was once “dead” is made “alive” – Rom. 6:13; Eph. 2:15; Col. 3:10; Eph. 5:8

A lot of what is going on in Christianity today is reformation without transforming.

Reformation is man making himself better by following scripture.
Transforming is God doing a supernatural act made possible by Jesus Christ.

Reformation – no salvation – no eternal security – based upon you.
Transformation – salvation – eternal security – based upon God.

2 Cor 13:5  Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

May God bless.
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michael_legna
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« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2004, 04:44:04 PM »


Quote
I think people are confusing transformation with reformation.

If by people you mean you then you are right.

I have no problem with your definition and understand of reformation.  but you are all confused about transformation, even within your own definition which is neither secularly nor biblically correct.

Quote
Transformation - The act or operation of changing the form or external appearance.

This is not correct - where did you get the definition did you make it up?  Transformation is not just an external event.

Your examples don't even fit an external event form of transformation.

Quote
1.  Metamorphosis; change of form in insects; as from a caterpillar to a butterfly.

Do you think a butterfly and caterpillar are the same inside?  If you do you need to go back to Biology I in high school.  Their anatomical structure is vastly different.

Quote
2.  Transmutation; the change of one metal into another, as of copper or tin into gold.

Do you think gold and tin are the same inside?  If you do you need to go back to Physics I in high school, they differ in the number of neutrons and protons in the nucleus.  Can't get much more inside than that!

Quote
3.  The change of the soul into a divine substance, as among the mystics.

What mystics are you relying on now for your description of soul?

Quote
4.  Transubstantiation.

This has nothing to do with transformation.  In this event the accidents, the appearance both inner and outer remain the same, while the substance (that inner philosophical principal that determines the true nature of something) changes.  The closest it comes would be to the reverse of transformation.

Quote
5.  In theology, a change of heart in man, by which his disposition and temper are conformed to the divine image; a change from enmity to holiness and love.

And now we get to why you try to twist this definition so.  To support your idea that man is transformed (a term you admit doesn't get used in the Bible, but whose idea you hope to claim does based on the definitions above) and that transformation explains how we are merely covered up with a new creature, not really changed at all just hidden.  Unfortunately your examples don't work, your definition is apparently of your own making (or at least chosen very carefully from a list of alternatives from a dictionary) and flawed.  

On top of this the Bible uses the word converted, not transformed.  It means to imply a true change internally not just an external change.  That is why justification being merely imputed and us being merely covered by the blodd does not do the discussion of salvation real justice.  We have to be converted, justification is infused into us.  We are different we don't just appear different to God.  That is playing the Father for a sucker.

Back to the drawing board for you.

Quote
Transformation – though not a “Bible” word the principle according to the definition is.  Note definition #2 and #3 – these two coupled with the Bible words, regeneration, justification, sanctification, etc. along with 2 Cor 5:17

Definition #2 is about transmutation.  So we are transformed like tin is transmuted into gold?  I can agree to that - because it means we are changed internally at the most fundamental level.  It is not just a cover up or an outward change with no inward conversion.  But then that doesn't match your doctrine so I suspect you will be throwing this example out.
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Matt 5:11  Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake:
AVBunyan
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« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2004, 09:18:12 PM »

I was quoting Webster's 1828 regarding transaformation to illustate the Biblical change in a man - never said Webster was scripture.  You made it much more complicated that it was meant to be - the thought was plain and simple.
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nChrist
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« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2004, 03:02:41 AM »

Oklahoma Howdy to AVBunyon,

AMEN! - Thanks for an uplifting message.

There are many words in the Holy Bible that don't have acceptable definitions in the dictionaries of men. I like Strong's and the expanded Strong's Concordance, but I just got a much larger concordance that I'm checking now. It is also based on Strong's, but it greatly expanded. I think it's going to be a winner so far. It's "The Complete Word Study Dictionary" with Dr. Spiros Zodhiates as the managing editor.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2004, 12:11:22 PM »

Oklahoma Howdy to AVBunyon,

AMEN! - Thanks for an uplifting message.

There are many words in the Holy Bible that don't have acceptable definitions in the dictionaries of men. I like Strong's and the expanded Strong's Concordance, but I just got a much larger concordance that I'm checking now. It is also based on Strong's, but it greatly expanded. I think it's going to be a winner so far. It's "The Complete Word Study Dictionary" with Dr. Spiros Zodhiates as the managing editor.

Love In Christ,
Tom

I second this!
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michael_legna
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« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2004, 01:29:39 PM »

I was quoting Webster's 1828 regarding transaformation to illustate the Biblical change in a man - never said Webster was scripture.  You made it much more complicated that it was meant to be - the thought was plain and simple.

You really need to give up Webster's 1828 dictionary.  We understand the world so much better now than we did then and our definitions are therefore much more precise.  

Transmutation is a good example.  In 1828 we thought transmutation was a myth, a parlor trick of the alchemists, and thus Webster defined it as a superficial outward change, not a real inner transformation.  We now know that tin  or lead can be changed into gold.  Granted it is a nuclear process and it cost more than the gold is worth and the resulting product is radioactive, but it is a real transformation.  So our understanding and the definition of the word transformation is no longer one of outward appearances.

You tried to illuminate a concept with an analogy and I merely pointed out the errors in your analogy.  Exposing errors within an analogy sometimes does require a complicated thread of reasoning as you have to bring to light more points of fact that the simple analogy relied.  I did not make it complicated on purpose.  I would have loved to show the errors in your analogy more simply.  It just wasn't possible, or at least I could not find a way.
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Matt 5:11  Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake:
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« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2004, 02:56:58 PM »

The scriptural words:

Repent!

You must be born again!

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