ChristiansUnite Forums

Hey guys, can someone pass along a few anti-tongues verses? Verses showing Tongues isn’t for today, and things like that.

Sure Bro Start here:

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=1377

The real answer to your question is that there are no verses at all that support the idea that tongues are no longer for today.

Not True ;D

Ambassador4Christ are you saying spiritual gifts are no more?Miracles are no more?

While I don’t wish to take sides, A4C, the verse in the topics you posts does seem a bit more like one mans version of a few lonely passages. These are all well and good, and this can be proof in a way, but without a verse addressing this issue directly to back you “version“ of the verse up, it kinds of loses power. As S4E would say, “that is the same method used to prove infant baptism is ok!”;D

These verse have some good stuff, but I was kind of looking for something more... direct. These verse are good, but you can use the exact same method, and prove tongues are for today :-\

millions believe like me, I believe the Word of God. No more Goosebump religion for me. All the fakes like Jim Jones, Jim & Tammy, Oral Roberts, Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Jimmy Swaggert, etc, etc, etc fake tongues.

many verses to prove NO TONGUES TODAY. ;D

Grace & Peace

Happy Thanksgiving ;D

The question is not what you think of certian charasmatic teachers nor what "millions" believe and there is still not one single verse that proves "no tongues today". Not even one.

Millions of people are Catholic. I’m even willing to bet there are more Catholics, of every rite, then there are anti-tongues guys in the world. So… Catholicism is the way, right?

Honestly, bro, I really would like something more solid then what you gave. It is good supporting evidence, but it has no foundation. A Charismatic would even fall for that ;-)

Yes, Goosebump religions has MANY problems. The two main ones, I think, with Charismatics are:

A. They are independent, meaning they are accountable to no man. Each pastor is his own little Pope, in charge of his flock.

B. The can’t tell the different between emotion and God. Yeah, the “spirit of God” most people calm to feel is the same thing I feel with I get really excited about a car or the way I feel after a good work-out.

Because of these things, the turn “moves of God” into “movements.” There are reasons why Manna only lasted a day, people! But, just because they tend to overdo things (WAY overdo things) doesn’t make what they do any less valid. Tongues, I do take issue with.
Holy laughter, holy crap!
Slain in the spirit, the last thing “the spirit” wants to so “slain” us.
I say, keep tongues for your prayer life. I say, if your going to laugh, go to the bathroom, and don’t disrupt the service. I say don’t use “catchers,” if they are truly “slain” I’m sure God will protect them.

The Charismatic have forgotten the meaning of the word “service.” They spend to much time with a “me, me, me” attitude. Lets try the “Charismatic gifting” in a proper setting, and I believe we would see GREAT different.

End rant. :)

I'd just like to point out that there is a very substantial charismatic movement within the Catholic Church.

A4C maybe you over looked my qeustion?Do you beleive sipirtual gifts are no more?No more miracals?Yea i do agree there are many fakes speaking falsly in what they call tongues.

Yep. Of which I am a member. I’m CEC, we are a group of Liturgical Charismatics (shameless plug: Webpage on my profile ;D). It was a Roman Catholic priest in Southern Louisiana who brought my father into the Charismatic over 30 years ago. The same priest has been made head of the Charismatic in the Dioceses by the Bishop (an unofficial office, mind you). Anyways, you may have noticed my last sentence:


See the phrase in a proper setting? The liturgy. I think it fits just right with Paul’s words at the end of 1 Corinthians 14. I want to cry when I want to think about how this very important block of text is being ignored by the Charismatic, meanwhile, they are claiming gifts as their own, chasing everyone else away with their borderline-snake dancing behavior! Gold, tears, and falling down are not proof of the move of God.

Sort of like a Berean, I suppose?

Small point, but... why does someone who claims to believe the "Word of God" need to cut-and-paste from other peoples theology? Isn't the Word of God enough?

Did the Bereans cut-and-paste? Did they surf the internet to find theology to support what they had already made their minds up to believe? Did they try and defend their church doctrine against this new and controversial teaching. No, they had open minds, but followed up by looking into the Word of God for confirmation.

The good name and reputation of the Bereans is being defiled today because people are using it to justify their own fault-finding attitudes. But the truth of the matter is that these people were not negatively sceptical. They received the message with great eagerness and verified it using the only thing on this planet that is good enough to use - the Word of God.

Cessationism rests on the basis of man-made, extra-biblical theories designed to support denominational doctrine. It is not firmly anchored in the truth but must go outside the Word to support its claims. Quoting a few verses here and there does not make it scripturally sound. It requires human effort to hold it together, and that in itself speaks volumes.

Just by the Word of God (THE BIBLE) No tongues  :)

Brother Love :)

Please elaborate!

Oh, and in case you plan on dumping "volumes" of anti-tongues propaganda into the thread then know this: everything not verified by scripture should be accompanied by a "this is only my view"- kind of comment. All the rest will be automatically classified as garbage.

Any takers?

This in itself should be enough to cause the bulb light up the aluminum thinking caps of charismatiacs, especially those are not catholics..

Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. (2 Cor 11:14-15)





Blessing,
Petro

What about for those of us who are Catholics, but still want proof against tongues? I know you HAVE to have a few verses stashed away, Petro! The body of this message is 5 lines of text, your holding back on us, aren’t you? ;)

Hi Tibby,
I'm new on the forum.  :)
I don't think that there are scriptures that tell us not to speak in tongues, but in the early church, there are several that tell us that they did speak in tongues. It was a sign to the unbelievers. (Acts  2:1-13, 10:43-48,19:1-6)
Some churches today teach that speaking in tongues is required to prove that a person has been baptized in the Holy Spirit.
1Cor.12 and 14 go into detail about the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

God bless,
bluelake

tibby,

Hold back??  What do you want a sign??

...an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.


You say, you want proof against tongues??

Very simple, when and if, you hear, someone speaking in tongues in your church, and that person doing the speaking, or someone interpreting, claims it is a message from god to the people, that is not the manifestation of the gift of tongues.

If anyone excersizing the gift in a church gathering, not in accordance with the Lord's command, that is not a manifestation of the gift of tongues..

It is someone attempting to deceive others.

You don't need a college diploma to understand this is pure and simply,  deception at its root.

One simply needs to excercize his senses to discern, what is of God, and what isn't...  after all, unto us, it is given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of heaven.

Blessings,

Petro

I'm still waiting for the scriptures that prove that tongues are not for today...

You will be a long time waiting............


Petro

Not to worry, I won't be holding my breath until that day dawns.

But I did kind of expect someone to make a decent effort. All I have seen so far is people taking the opportunity to air their own opinions, and making judgmental remarks about how other people behave while worshipping God... same old, same old...

First lets make it clear that there are two types of tongues spoken of in the Bible.
Xenoglossia: (a.k.a. Zenolalia, Xenoglossia) This is the miraculous ability to spontaneously speak a foreign language without first having learned it, or even been exposed to it.

Glossolalia: The Interpreter's One-Volume Commentary on the Bible defines glossolalia as: "the ecstatic utterance of emotionally agitated religious persons, consisting of a jumble of disjointed and largely unintelligible sounds. Those who speak in this way believe that they are moved directly by a divine spirit and their utterance is therefore quite spontaneous and unpremeditated." 3

There is in my opion no verses that say Tongues have ceased.Could someone tell me what in Jesus name is not possable?I do realize there are fakes,we agree on that,but to say spiritual gifts are no longer given to us is upsetting.

I am asking for a scripture verse. Not fire from Heaven.

But I guess your right, Petro. As a Catholic, I see what you are saying, I can understand how verse have implied meaning, and how things don’t need the bible saying it to be true. ::) As you point out, we do this all the time. :-\ Now I understand it better. Sola Scriptoria only counts on the parts that we like, right? :P  ;)

Jabez,
I agree. In the book of Acts, chap.2 they did speak in known languages. I haven't heard of this occuring today. Most people who have the gift of tongues speak in glossolalia. If this action is interpreted, it would have to be through the Holy Spirit as I understand the meaning.

1Cor.14;4-5 "He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater, unless he interprets so that the church may be edified."

God bless,
bluelake.

tibby,

You wouldn't recognize fire from heaven if you saw it.

You are begining to sound like the john the baptist, rambling and not saying anything.

Are you asking a question, or making a point??

In order to understand what I stated, you must understand what the scripture teaches concering tongues.

It is that simple.

Petro

No comment, as we are in agreement.



The person that speaks in a [unkown] tongue (1 Cor 14:1-4 ;
Glossolalia may edify himself, but his understanding is unfruitfull (vs 14) vs 14, is a clarafication of what Paul said at;

vs 2"howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."

Paul, himself says, his own understanding is unfruitful when he prays in an unknown tongue, clearly teaching, that the man that speaks to God in the spirit, is praying to God,

{note; vs 15-16;

 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
  Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?)


, when languages were spoken on the day of pentecost no one asked for an interpreter, the scripture is clear everyone that heard the speaker/s heard in their own language.

However, there is nothing that discounts tongues spoken in the church to be anything but prayer in the spirit (vs 2), for sure it is not prophecying, since it (tongues) is not spoken to men (vs 3-4), but to God.

Now you can be sure that when this gift, if ever it be manifested, not in accordance with the Lords command, it is not of God.

Blessings,

Petro

Petro,
We seem to be in agreement on the tongues issue. May I ask you, have you attended a church where tongues were being spoken? I have and I was amazed and confused about the whole thing. However, I do think that if person does have this gift it should be used in their private devotions.
 What do you think? :-\

God bless,
bluelake

More personal attacks to avoid the topic, eh, Petro? Tossing insults around, when the bible has plenty to say about “showing love.” Quoting the verses are one things, Petro. But if you cannot display the great of commandments toward some you believe to be lost, when you can quote till you are blue in the face, but they are not going to accept what you have to say when you hurl such hurtful words at them. Why must we behave so petty? So, we disagree on a few things, does that call for spiteful behavior in every post we share? Can we disagree and discuses without the anger? If you need to vent your anti-Catholic fumes, PM me, but don’t bring your issues with me into every thread. Hey, I’m sorry if what I say offends you, I truly am. We live in a world where something as personal as convictions are offensive to others. The fact that my Christianity is offensive to you is regretful, but that doesn’t change the facts that I believe. Most of the regular members seem to ignore our bickering, it is the noobs who take notice.  So, I ask you, for the sake of peace on the board, and peace between us, deal with it and move on. :-\

On the bright side, since Jason has gone missing, you have done a nice job of filling in for him. S4E would be proud.  :)

Anyways, back to topic, you have not quoted a single verse in relation to tongues. You quoted a verse relating to false teachers, but not tongues. It said nothing of tongues, even in context. I’m not looking for a fight in this topic, I’m just looking for verse applying to the fact that tongues are not for today, not the same as they are today, not acceptable in the fashion they are expressed today, etc.

Tibby,

I'm not defending Petro, and neither do I have any wish to offend you, but I find the things you are saying here somewhat hypocritical. You feel qualified to make comments about what kind of attitude charasmatics have and don't blink before making judgmental statements about them, and yet you get offended when your own denomination comes under fire. Forget Petro. Forget charasmatics. Work on your own attitude instead and maybe then you will be fit to identify the splinters in other denominations eyes.

3Wells- I understand where you are coming from, however, Petro attacking my group is a bit different from me “judging” the Charismatic way. Old Petro and I have a bit of a history. We fought on my very first post here, and haven’t stopped. I have been Charismatic for a large chuck of my short life. Independent Charismatic. Being one for all this time, and only recently, in the past year or 2, following a more Liturgical route, taking the Charismatic with me, I think I am in a place to critique. Does being a member make someone more or less reliable of a critic? I know nothing of Petro’s Church history, but as for as he has implied, has never set foot in a Charismatic church, let alone a Charismatic Catholic church. Secondly, Petro’s attack of me is under different circumstances then my attack of the Charismatic. Petro’s, while very knowledgeable of the scripture, is also very Fundamentalist. And being the most vocal Catholic on the board, we don’t see eye to eye on the Church attend. He seems to take this personally. He goes out of his way to belittle me, and personally attack me, and the entire Catholic Church, when ever he can. I hold no grudge against my Charismatic brothers, nor to Petro. I do not attack them on every thread we share. Unless the issue is revenant to the topic at hand, I try to leave it in the thread it was discussed.

I understand what you are saying, bro, but the relationship between Petro and I is a bit complex. It isn't just this one thread. It is all of them. :)

tibby,

What offends you is the plain simple truth.

What else can I say..

Petro

Who said I was offended? :) I just think we are being petty.

1COR 14:21 In the law it is written, With [men of] other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
1COR 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying [serveth] not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
1COR 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in [those that are] unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

tibby,

I understand, you were just blowing smoke again.

Look, you are just a young kid, who still acts childish, but thinks he knows everything, we all have been there..

I answered your question in reply #29, if you were perceptive and understood the biblical teaching of tongues, you would be able to understand what I wrote, and you would not have to rely on "implied meanings", a sort of mysticism, the understanding of hidden teachings.

Nothing is hidden or implied, it is all out in the open, and clearly understood, this is why, we speak plainly concerning these things.

If you understood, you would not ask such a question.

As for my response to ebia's comment on the charasmatic movement with Catholicism, I was reffering to the fact that, the Catholic church rejects sound the teaching of scripture in favor, of observing traditions, which are contrary to scriptual teaching, and no catholic charasmatics, should take notice that if catholics who reject scriptural teachings manifest the same gifts that they (the speaking of tongues, catholic charasmatics manifest), this should be a sign, to the working of the great counterfieter, excersizing certain gifts given by the Holy Spirit, in a church which is built on non biblical traditions.

And whether, catholic or not catholic (it matters little), if these are manifested not in accordance with the Lords commandment, it is not of God.

Now, as for you wanting to know, if tongues is or is not for today, you clearly are asking for opinions, not scriptures, since if you knew what the scriptures teach, you would not ask other people, you would ask God in prayer.

It is clear you did not understand what I wrote afore, with few words, and I am willing to esplain it to you, in  simpler terms.

If you want my opinion, just tell me, what the charasmatics, do when they speak in tongues at your church?, and;

Does someone interpret??  and;

What are they doing, praying or prophecying in tongues?

And then I will show you, whether they are truly manifesting the gift of tongues according to the bible.

There is nothing implied in the verses that teach concernng this gift, in Gods Word.


Blessings,

Petro

bluelake,

It is clear to me tongues is a gift with two aspects, which jabez, explained perfectly.

The one which deals with known languages, is the one which clearly is referenced, in Acts 2:8, when every man heard in thier own tongue wherein they were born.

In Acts 10:44-46, where Cornelius and his household were given the Holy Spirit, noone that heard asked "What did they say", the scriptutres are clear they heard and understood imediately what they said, when;

"..... they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify (God) Jesus."

And neither was there any need to interpret, what those who spoke in tongues at Ephesus, when they received the Holy Spirit, since they also, no doubt [magnified Jesus at Acts 19:1-4.

Now, the other aspect of tongues, that of speaking not to men, but to God in the spirit mysteries, which Paul says is unfruitful to the understanding is clearly man praying to God in the spirit, can that be done today?

I don't discount this since it is a gift, dispensed by the spirit, together with all other gifts, for the edification of the body, until that which is perfect comes.

The scripture is clear men are being made perfect, this is the work of God the Holy Spirit, which begins with Faith in God, and will end by Faith in Jesus, and the just shall live by Faith, and this gift does not cease (1 Cor 13:8), until that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (1Cor 13:10)

So the question which has got to be answered is;

What is it that is perfect that will com??

The scriptures say;

Jesus was made perfect through obedience to God, this is speaking of his human nature. (Heb 5:8-9)

We are adopted Sons, and we are perfect in Christ. (Heb 12:23)(Jhn 17:23)



God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Herein is our love made perfect,.....
............. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
(1Jhn 4:16-18)

Since we are in the body of Christ, and He has commanded that we should love one another, [that which is perfect which is to come may very well be speaking of the perfected spiritual body in one, and according to Heb 11:40, those who have died in faith are included, so my conclusion from what I understand is that perfection will occur when the whole body of Christ is brought into that perfection in the eternal state, thus tongues have not ceased, they are simply beeing misused, to be something that cause confusion and consternation within the body, when the gift should be used to edify the body, it simply has become a "schism", by virtue of it's misuse.

I have attended churches where this gift has been manifested, I have always tried to speak to them who  excersized this manifested gift, afterwards, an have never really found it to be manifested in a way which was obedient to the commandment, I simply chalked most all of them to a hoax.

If it exists, it should be observed in accordance with 1 Cor 14:26-40.

Tongues is not a sign for believers but for unbelievers.

And here is how, it is a sign.

When an unbeliever sees or hears persons praying, they know that person believes , in God, and knows he is speaking to Him.

Unbelievers never pray to God.



Blessings,

Petro

     Petro;
    What is it with you, all they ask for is scripture is there not one?
     As for scripture on the other side of the topic.

       


Mark 16
10   And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11   And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12   After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13   And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14   Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15   And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16   He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17   And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18   They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19   So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

ACTS 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
ACTS 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 10
45   And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46   For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47   Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

ACTS 19:6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied

1 Corinthians 12
25   That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26   And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27   Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28   And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29   Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30   Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31   But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

1 Corinthians 13
1   Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2   And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3   And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4   Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5   Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6   Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7   Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8   Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9   For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10   But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11   When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12   For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13   And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity

1COR 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

forrest,


The question;


Cannot be answered with a verse, since there are no, anti-tongues verses.

Tibby doesn't know this, that is why he is asking for an anti-tongues verse.

Do you have a verse?  Share it with him...

So consequently, anything which appears as though it is a manifestation of this gift, will confuse him, so it is easier, to explain it to him, by having him, post what it is he is hearing and seeing, and compare it to scripture, to help him determine if it is a hoax, or in accordance with Gods Word.

I explained this clearly, but he didn't undedrstand it this is why, he asked again the same Q....

Blessings,
Petro

Not really, I just don’t see why we have to bicker all the time.



At my church, we don’t speak in tongues in front of the Congregation. People are welcome to, but they know the rules, interpretation of tongues is clearly stated in the bible.

forrest,

I agree with scripture.

The verse you posted (1Cor 14:39) is not an anti-tongues verse, it is a pro-tongues verse, if anything.


Blessings,
Petro

       Petro;
     I'm sorry that I aparently missunderstood your stand, the scripture are pro tongues though I myself do not have the gift. I have been told repeatedly that tongues were done away with, and not for today yet when pushed they have no scripture to stand on, yet many for tongues.

Thank you. That is all you had to say. And look, you said it without trashing me! :)

Tibby doesn't know this, that is why he is asking for an anti-tongues verse.

Do you have a verse?  Share it with him...

So consequently, anything which appears as though it is a manifestation of this gift, will confuse him, so it is easier, to explain it to him, by having him, post what it is he is hearing and seeing, and compare it to scripture, to help him determine if it is a hoax, or in accordance with Gods Word.
Ok, nevermind. :(

;D lol j/k


There was nothing clear about it. Sorry, bro. :-\

tibby,


See, thats all you needed to say, rather than going into your smoke blowing tirade, if you recall your answer was something to the affect of "fire from heaven", you never said

My explanantion was not clear to you.

bluelake didn't have a problem with my explanantion, and I suspect 3wells, didn't either, or perhaps he didn't care to comment, hewever, I am willing to have you understand it perfectly.

Let me see if I can put it in simpler terms.

You said:


Well, it is only in this generation, that the catholic church, has some of its splintered groups, begining to claim gifts such as tongues, the mopther church never taught it nor claimed they were gifts for day useage.

But, lets talk about your church.

Since tongues is a subjective experience both to the one speaking and the one hearing, and the scripture states, that the one speaking in tongues's understanding is unfruitfull, together with verse 1 Cor 14:13, it is given to understand, that even the person speaking in tongues, needs to have his words spoken in tongues, interpreted to him, since he does not understand, what he has said, himself.

So, what I have said, is that the person speaking in tongues according to the scriptures, as a matter of course does not understand himself, what he has said, he himself is spiritually edified (1 Cor 14:4), but his understanding is unfruitfull, unless he interprets (notice, how that one that speaks in tongues, is only greater than one who prophecies unless he interprets, [1 Cor 14:5], this in itself opens this gift up to abuse, by those that want to be consider greater than all in the church), either way, tongues spoken in the church must be interpreted by someone or the one doing the speaking.

Now, here is how this gets interesting, and depending what the speaker does or says, is what can be understood by the hears to be of God, or not.

You said;


This rule, is actually a Commandment of the Lord, so obedience to it is crucial and by this obedience or not, one will determine if this is a hoax, or not.

It is understood then, that if someone in the church wants to speak in tongues (which cannot be anything but pray, since it is not prophecying, because;  (.......... he that speaketh in an tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: [1 Cor 14:2], if it is prophecy, imediately you can know it is a hoax, because ...... he that prophesieth speaketh unto men ........, he must know if there is somone who can interpret.

Because, he can only speak unless someone interprets, now if he is able to intrepret then of course, he may proceed, and cannot be forbiden to speak.

Now let compare what is a prayer to God, as opposed to prophecy;

While it clear God spoke to men by prophets in times past, He does not speak to men this way any longer, and tongues is NOT prophecying, tongues is a man speaking to God.

So lets assume someone gets up in your church and speaks in tongues, the interpreter will interpret while this individual speaks, how do I know this?, you might asks,

because verses 16 and 17, it is given to understand that the hearers, will say Amen at the proper moment you bless with the spirit, notice carefully;

"Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall
he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?   For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

So what are we saying herein??

That the one who prays in tongues, while having his prayer interpreted, will bless (those hearers, with what he prays) with the spirit, and the ones present listening who are being blessed, will say Amen at thy giving of thanks to God.

For instance, here is what it should sound like.

1. Person praying in tongues: bn nlkj kd jkf;odl  kvflkv ;

2. Interterpreter:   Thank you father for this day and,

3. Congregation of listeners:  Amen..

1.  ; hhtt, yotmrn fl;soe sopdmwkm ksdkewo ow acaoedk..

2.  ; and we praise you for giving us our daily bread,

3   Praise the Lord, amen...

You may disagree with me, but this is the picture painted by these scriptures, of one praying in tongues in the church gathering, and having the prayer interpreted, and the reaction of the believers while being edified by the one speaking in tongues.

Now, having said this, if anyone gets up and begings his prayer speaking in tongues, with the following words:

Thus saith the Lord.......

Imediately you can know this is not for real, it is a HOAX, because he is bringing a message from God to man, and this is impossible because speaking in tongues is not man speaking to man in the form of prophesying, it is


"man speaking to God in the Spirit." (1 Cor 14:2)

I trust this clarified this matter for you.

Blessings,

Petro  

forrest

It is quite alright,

I myself do not have this gift, and neither do I care to possess it, as I believe it is a gift that can be easily abused and the one possessing it should be noble enough to understand it is not given to make oneself more than he is in the body, personally my opnion of those that exhibit it, outside the commandment, are not possessers of it, they deceive themselves and others with the antics.

The gifts are all given as it suits the Holy Spirit, though there appears to be an allowance for believers that possess it, to be enabled to interpret it.

But I believe the responsibility that comes with the gift, is such, that one better know he is playing with fire by misusing their gifts, in either case it is clear the gifts are given for edification of the body.

This one edifies both the one possessing it and the body of Christ .

Only one who is ignorant of this would use this gift to mnake himself greater than his brother, who does not have the particular gift.

Blessings,

Petro

Yeah…

Anyways, thanks for your answer, Petro, and everyone else.

tibby,

Now I left this last tid bit out to see, how you received what I wrote, I'll give it you anyhow, even though you don't seem interested.

If the man, is able to interpret his own prayer, then he will speak NOT in tongues as Paul says, but will speak with his own understanding, which means he will speak in the normal language, understood by the church.

So there won't be any reason to go thruogh this excersize of praying in a tongue, and then interpreting it, unless of course the person speaking wanted to put on a show.

It wouldn't make sense to pray to interpret ones own prayer in tongues, and then speak or pray in an unknown language, then interpret.

The whole point of the manifestation of the gift is that the church be edified.

Blessings,

Petro

So if you hear someone speaking in gibberish, then start inperpreting himself , your ears and eyebrows should rise up together, because something don't sound right.


Blessings,
Petro

Not, it isn't that I’m uninterested, just distracted, being is end of semester and all. :-\ I'm taking it all in, don't worry.  :) and thanks for the clarification.

At Pentecost God sent his Holy Spirit into the world. In the book of Acts it was done to astonish the people, which it did.
This sign was later given to the Gentiles and Samaritans.
Today we have the Bible to guide us . The Bible tells us that God gives us his gifts as he choses. I believe people receive Gods gifts today. I also believe that speaking in tongues can be faked. Who is the loser in this case.
I am sceptical about prophecy. Prophecy must glorify God to be real and it must also come true. I also feel that interpreting
tongues are questionable. I have heard this done and the answer was in relation to the scripture that was read earlier. It just didn't ring true. I prayed about this and I didn't feel any different about it as I recall.  I don't like to judge another persons walk. I'm still learning, so maybe the Lord will clear it up for me.  ;)

God bless,
bluelake

bluelake,

There are two aspects of prophecy, of which one is no longer in view, and that is, that of prophecying the future, the scriptures are clear, God has spoken to us in these las days, by His Son, and;

Heb 2
1  Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2  For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward;
3  How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

So while prophecy concerning the future has ceased, in a sense it really has not, when one preaches or shares  the gospel to/with an individual, in effect they are share about their eternal destiny, concerning their future.

So, you can see that prophecy in a sense has not been totally been done away with, and won't while the Gospel is preached on the earth, since it is inherent in it. (the Gospel), so tonhues may not have ceased , since men pray to God in the spirit every day, I say this because;

Paul says at;

Rom 8
26  Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.


If this is not praying to God in the spirit, then I guess I don't what is..


Blessings,
Petro

Tongues can certainly be a controversial topic. Tongues will never replace 'Grace.'
The Bible tells us that all the people in the book of Acts were believers, so tongues didn't save them as some folks believe. When the Holy Spirit fell on the disciples  they were not seeking, but waiting. All believers are filled with the Holy Spirit. (1Cor.12;13) This occurs when they accept Christ as their Savior.  :D
Prophecy is handled carelessly in some denominations. It is almost like fortune telling.
Another good example of deception is the Benny Hinn Show. God heals, not Hinn. But, that's another story.   :)

God bless,
bluelake

Amen,

Well, I can't see it clearly that tongues has ceased, nor that prophecy has failed, I know I am known by God, but I don't know as I am known.

So, I am simply not convinced, that the completion of the Bible, ended these.

I say, men are still able to pray in the prayer closet.

And as far as I am concerned since the scripture says;  

"forbid not to speak in tongues",

if it happens in a church setting exactly as the Lord commanded, then so be it, that Christians be edified.

In the mean time, anyone that gets the hankering to speak to God in the spirit, should do so, as the spirit moves, him,
but  stay in the closet...

"Forbid not to speak in tongues", means the closet or the church setting.

Blessings,
Petro

I started talking with my tongue last night :)

Brother Love :)

I have a hard enough time interpreting what my wife says...now I'm supposed to have gift to interpret what she says?  NOW they tell me!   ;D

ROFLOL and Barking like a dog :)

Brother Love :)

When my wife reads this...I'm gonna be in biiiiiiiiiigtime trouble.   ;D

I am sure :)

Brother Love :)

Hi,

• The disciples were with Jesus for about three and a half years, day and night, still He asked them to wait in Jerusalem (Luke 24:49), why?
  

• Mark 16:17~18  And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover." Does this mean/apply only to first century believers??

• John 7:37~38  On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and proclaimed, "If any one thirst, let him come to me and drink. He who believes in me, as the scripture has said, 'Out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water.'" What are these rivers?

• How do a person know that he is filled/overflow/baptized in the Holy Spirit?

If personal opinions/interpretations, please mention it. PLEASE, do NOT quote too many verses but give references. Let me do some homework. Thank you.

Your answer if found in Acts 1:1-9


Jhn 14
8  Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9  Jesus saith unto him,  Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10  Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11  Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13  And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14  If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

The gift of tongues has been discussed in depth on this thread, depending on whom you believe will determine, whether this gift is still around. However this verse may not be speaking of the gifts of tongues.

So the question is, do Christians speak differently today, after they bare saved, than before they were saved?

Can Christians lay hands on the sick, that they may recover, today, See (James 5:14), you be the judge.

Cast out demons, in the name of Christ?  see,  Mk 9:17-29, can Christians pray and fast today?

Consider Acts 28:1-6, can this occur today, is it possible for Chritsians to experience something similar, I am not speaking about these christians who use snakes as a way of tempting God, as they do in christian worship circles.

Also, read the OT account of the fiery serpents (Num 21:4-8), and what Jesus said concerning himself.

Jhn3
14  And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.


Notice verse 37, it was the last day of a feast day.  Which one?

A certain custom, was observed by the Jews during this feast which lasted eight days.

But, your answer is found in the next verse;

39  (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

This was the Baptism of the Holy Spirit , which was to come, refer back to your first question.


You notice how Jesus used the word water in referring to the Holy Spirit. (see Titus 3:5)

Water also refers to the Word of God, in His Word, which washes away sin for instance consider; (Eph 5:26)

Consider what Jesus said to the samaritan woman at the well in John 4

1  When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
2  (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
3  He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.
4  And he must needs go through Samaria.
5  Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph.
6  Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour.
7  There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.
8  (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)
9  Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
10  Jesus answered and said unto her,  If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
11  The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
12  Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
13  Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14  But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.[/b]
15  The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.
16  Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.
17  The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:
18  For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.
19  The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
20  Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21  Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22  Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23  But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
25  The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26  Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

Then Jesus asks at John 7:37,38,39;

37  ...................If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38  He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39  (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

So what you are really asking is,

How does one know when he has the Holy Spirit?

Ask yourself, Am I a child of God?, you know whether you are or you are not....(see Rom 8:9,11) and verse 16.

If your answer is yes, you should be filled with the spirit, assuming you are living your life for Jesus in the Spirit.



Is this what you wanted to know?



God Bless,

Petro